Jamison averaged 32/10 vs Lebron in Playoffs.. Middleton got 24/6 vs Crowder [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

07-28-2021, 02:56 AM

Never forget OP once said Giannis will never be a champion and was fuming when he eliminated KD this year.

Giannis proved me wrong.. He proved everyone wrong... That's why he has a chance to catch MJ if he keeps it up.

Otoh, who did LeBiles prove wrong?... He continues to prove his detractors right with each failed collusion and cry for moar help!! (mostly losing with super-teams)

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:02 AM

Giannis proved me wrong.. He proved everyone wrong... That's why he has a chance to catch MJ if he keeps it up.

Otoh, who did LeBiles prove wrong?... He continues to prove his detractors right with each failed collusion and cry for moar help!! (mostly losing with super-teams)

He's a Pippen... Middleton carried him in various games last series and is the 4th quarter closer

You were calling him "Pippen" after he eliminated Durant. :oldlol:

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:04 AM

You were calling him "Pippen" after he eliminated Durant. :oldlol:

Again, Giannis proved me wrong.. He proved everyone wrong... That's why he has a chance to catch MJ if he keeps it up.

Otoh, who did LeBiles prove wrong?... He continues to prove his detractors right with each failed collusion and cry for moar help!! (mostly losing with super-teams)

Ultimately, I can't think of who Lebron proved wrong... Maybe himself, since he failed at "not 6, not 7"

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:09 AM

Again, Giannis proved me wrong.. He proved everyone wrong... That's why he has a chance to catch MJ if he keeps it up.

Otoh, who did LeBiles prove wrong?... He continues to prove his detractors right with each failed collusion and cry for moar help!! (mostly losing with super-teams)

Ultimately, I can't think of who Lebron proved wrong... Maybe himself, since he failed at "not 6, not 7"

He went from Pippen to better than LeBron in a span of a few weeks. :roll:

We all know you were punching the air when KD got eliminated, because deep down you know Giannis is LeBron, both athletic freaks who don't require off-ball movement to score.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:11 AM

He went from Pippen to better than LeBron in a span of a few weeks. :roll:

We all know you were punching the air when KD got eliminated, because deep down you know Giannis is LeBron, both athletic freaks who don't require off-ball movement to score.

lol lebron is nothing like Giannis:

Time of Possession - Playoffs

21' Giannis... 4.7 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)
21' Lebron.... 6.8 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)

20' Giannis... 4.3 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs)
20' Giannis... 8.0 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs)

18' Giannis... 4.8 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs)
18' Lebron.... 9.6 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs)

Giannis gets his stats in half the hold-time, so they play nothing alike and Giannis is obviously far superior.

Giannis' more efficient use of the ball gives teammates more time, which allows Jrue and Middleton to thrive and play to capacity.. Otoh, Lebron's suboptimal ball-dominance craters teammates like Ingram, Kuzma, and Love, so he's lottery in the West without AD, and can't get low seeds out of the 1st Round outside the bubble.

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:12 AM

lol lebron is nothing like Giannis:

Time of Possession - Playoffs

21' Giannis... 4.7 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)
21' Lebron.... 6.8 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)

20' Giannis... 4.3 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs)
20' Giannis... 8.0 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs)

18' Giannis... 4.8 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs)
18' Lebron.... 9.6 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs)

Giannis gets his stats in half the hold-time, so they play nothing alike and Giannis is obviously far superior.

Giannis more efficient use of the ball gives teammates more time, which allows Jrue and Middleton to thrive and play to capacity.. Otoh, Lebron's suboptimal ball-dominance craters teammates like Ingram, Kuzma, and Love, so he's lottery in the West without AD, and can't get low seeds out of the 1st Round outside the bubble.

. ESPN: Nearly half of Giannis' drives had no help defender due to spacing
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtOOQ43yw4&t=05m42s

So he wouldn't be as good against the packed paints of previous eras (no teammates spacing the floor), where great shooting was required to shoot over defenses/packed paints, like the gifs below:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6ozo2gsUnmBUtTd6/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif

Btw, this is the same reason Lebron wouldn't be nearly as good on previous eras (no teamnates spacing the floor to benefit his penetration/ball-domination

lol

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:13 AM

lol

And?

Giannis wouldn't be as good in prior eras, but almost none of today's players would be - Giannis is still better than Lebron, who would be worse in prior eras than Giannis (at least Giannis can be a big man back then)

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:15 AM

And?

Giannis wouldn't be as good in prior eras, but almost none of today's players would be - Giannis is still better than Lebron, who would be worse in prior eras than Giannis (at least Giannis can be a big man back then)

You after Giannis beat KD...

https://media.tenor.com/images/1923a7ac6be1d83e680675de2bb7af1c/tenor.gif

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:18 AM

You after Giannis beat KD...

https://media.tenor.com/images/1923a7ac6be1d83e680675de2bb7af1c/tenor.gif

Actually, I knew he would win the title at that point, and this organic title has done more to diminish Lebron than any pundit or social media could ever do

All hail Giannis - the real king that knows how to WIN (organic), while Lebron only knows how to team-hop...

Imagine not knowing how to fit with teammates or develop championship strategy/brand (aka learn to win, aka organic)... smh.. lebron is a joke

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:20 AM

Actually, I knew he would win the title at that point, and this organic title has done more to diminish Lebron than any pundit or social media could ever do

All hail Giannis - the real king that knows how to WIN (organic), while Lebron only knows how to team-hop... Imagine not knowing how to fit with teammates or develop championship strategy/brand... smh.. lebron is a joke

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494665-Prediction-Bucks-will-blowout-the-Nets-in-game-6-amp-7

Prediction: Bucks will blowout the Nets in game 6 & 7

Laughable delusion from a mourning lebron fan

You called the Bucks coming back to beat the Nets a "delusion from a lebron fan".

Now why did you throw in "LeBron fan"? Because deep down you know Giannis IS LeBron.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:23 AM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496233-Jamison-averaged-32-10-vs-Lebron-in-Playoffs-Middleton-got-24-6-vs-Crowder

Prediction: Bucks will blowout the Nets in game 6 & 7

You called the Bucks coming back to beat the Nets a "delusion from a lebron fan".

Now why did you throw in "LeBron fan"? Because deep down you know Giannis IS LeBron.

Giannis proved us all wrong - I already said that...

So you can keep posting my bad predictions about Giannis, but that only proves how great Giannis is - he proved everyone wrong, while Lebron never proved anything to anyone.. he just team-hopped and formed super-teams like a beta.. and mostly lost with them.. what does that prove?

And did you see that stats?... Giannis plays nothing like Lebron and is far superior by getting better stats in half the hold-time and therefore elevating teammates to organic victory.

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:26 AM

Giannis proved us all wrong - I already said that...

So you can keep posting my bad predictions about Giannis, but that only proves how great Giannis is - he proved everyone wrong, while Lebron never proved anything to anyone.. he just team-hopped and formed super-teams like a beta.

And did you see that stats?... Giannis plays nothing like Lebron and is far superior by getting better stats in half the hold-time and therefore elevating teammates to organic victory.

Tatum is an elite jumpshooter, so his high-scoring allows ball movement and can therefore beat good teams

Otoh, high scoring from Giannis is extremely ball-dominant, so he can't win with high scoring or scoring period

"Extremley ball-dominant" :oldlol:

I can go all day. Giannis = LeBron in your head.

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 03:26 AM

Why stop at Khris Middleton? Since we're not including playmaking or defense in the discussion, things that don't really have anything to do with basketball anyway, Antawn Jamison's 32/10 peak in one first round sweep was also better than '03 Duncan, '11 Dirk, '94 Hakeem, and even 2nd 3peat Jordan.

OP might legitimately be the most retarded poster on the board :lol

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:28 AM

The 2009 and 2010 Cavs had top defenses, even better than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while having FAR more scorers than the Bulls - that's why they were 1 seeds, but Lebron left before they could win, whereas Giannis and MJ stayed to get it done.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:29 AM

"Extremley ball-dominant" :oldlol:

I can go all day. Giannis = LeBron in your head.

We know that Giannis isn't ball-dominant:

Time of Possession - Playoffs

21' Giannis... 4.7 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)
21' Lebron.... 6.8 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)

20' Giannis... 4.3 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs)
20' Giannis... 8.0 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs)

18' Giannis... 4.8 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs)
18' Lebron.... 9.6 minutes (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs)

Giannis gets his stats in half the hold-time, so they play nothing alike and Giannis is obviously far superior.

Giannis' more efficient use of the ball gives teammates more time, which allows Jrue and Middleton to thrive and play to capacity.. Otoh, Lebron's suboptimal ball-dominance craters teammates like Ingram, Kuzma, and Love, so he's lottery in the West without AD, and can't get low seeds out of the 1st Round outside the bubble.

1987_Lakers

07-28-2021, 03:32 AM

We know that Giannis isn't ball-dominant:.

You a few months ago..

Tatum is an elite jumpshooter, so his high-scoring allows ball movement and can therefore beat good teams

Otoh, high scoring from Giannis is extremely ball-dominant, so he can't win with high scoring or scoring period

You can't be this retarded.

Axe

07-28-2021, 03:33 AM

So Jamison had better peak ability and better career stats than Middleton across the board, yet Lebron lost and Giannis won.

Lebron and Giannis are the only guys to lose twice in a row with 60-win 1 seeds, except Giannis stayed 1 more year and won, while LeBiles quit and let Dirk win the 1-star, organic ring that was up for grabs.
The bucks didn't win 60 games last season dummy.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:39 AM

You a few months ago..

You can't be this retarded.

Giannis won with high scoring, while Lebron never did, so Giannis proved me wrong..

Otoh, when did Lebron prove anyone wrong? He's just a team-hopper... a quitter.. a mentally weak player and person

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:40 AM

The bucks didn't win 60 games last season dummy.

They were on pace based on a 82-game schedule.

Lebron and Giannis are the only guys to lose twice in a row with 60-win 1 seeds, except Giannis stayed 1 more year and won, while LeBiles quit and let Dirk win the 1-star, organic ring that was up for grabs.

8Ball

07-28-2021, 07:12 AM

1987 Lakers just american X curb stomped 3ball this thread.

8Ball

07-28-2021, 07:16 AM

You a few months ago..

You can't be this retarded.

He's been proven wrong for 8 years straight now.

He is that retarded.

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 08:59 AM

Giannis won with high scoring, while Lebron never did, so Giannis proved me wrong..

Otoh, when did Lebron prove anyone wrong? He's just a team-hopper... a quitter.. a mentally weak player and person

So why are you comparing Middleton to Jamison then?

SATAN

07-28-2021, 09:18 AM

16 year old LeBron James kicked Michael Jordan's ass in a scrimmage game. Goat shit.

StrongLurk

07-28-2021, 10:13 AM

OP getting massacred once again.

And1AllDay

07-28-2021, 12:13 PM

He's been proven wrong for 8 years straight now.

He is that retarded.

:oldlol::roll:

RRR3

07-28-2021, 01:14 PM

OP getting massacred once again.
He literally gets massacred in every single thread he makes.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 01:44 PM

Thread Cliffs

Giannis won with Middleton, while Lebron couldn't win with a better player in Jamison, so Giannis > Lebron

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 01:49 PM

Thread Cliffs

Giannis won with Middleton, while Lebron couldn't win with a better player in Jamison, so Giannis > Lebron

Why do you claim to know basketball so well but then put things in these terms?

Like because Jamison scored a bunch on 27 shots per game while getting swept by a 50 win team in 2007...means the 2010 version of him was better than Middleton in 2021?

Like the rest of the roster doesn't exist. The opponents don't exist. Basketball doesn't exist.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 01:54 PM

Why do you claim to know basketball so well but then put things in these terms?

Like because Jamison scored a bunch on 27 shots per game while getting swept by a 50 win team in 2007...means the 2010 version of him was better than Middleton in 2021?

Like the rest of the roster doesn't exist. The opponents don't exist. Basketball doesn't exist.

The OP explained that Jamison had better career stats across the board, in addition to superior peak performance that you just detailed.

So Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 02:00 PM

The OP explained that Jamison had better career stats across the board, in addition to superior peak performance that you just detailed.

So Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton

Taking a million shots in 4 games on a 19 win team while getting swept is not "peak performance". A lot of guys can do that.

Being the closer on a championship team? Little bit different of a story. Different set of circumstances for the two.

But I'm not sure why you're comparing the numbers anyway (as I alluded to earlier). Middleton is a second option on a team with [your quote] "Giannis won with high scoring". Why you comparing a guy who is on a team with a high scoring Giannis to another guy playing 4 games on a 19 win team?

And why you ignoring the other aspects of basketball (the REST OF THE ROSTER), the opponent, etc.

As an aside: Jamison against Lebron in the playoffs in 2006: 19/7 on 42%.

Jamison WITH Lebron against the Bulls in 2010: 19/7 on 51%

3ba11

07-28-2021, 02:10 PM

Taking a million shots in 4 games on a 19 win team while getting swept is not "peak performance". A lot of guys can do that.

Being the closer on a championship team? Little bit different of a story. Different set of circumstances for the two.

But I'm not sure why you're comparing the numbers anyway (as I alluded to earlier). Middleton is a second option on a team with [your quote] "Giannis won with high scoring". Why you comparing a guy who is on a team with a high scoring Giannis to another guy playing 4 games on a 19 win team?

And why you ignoring the other aspects of basketball (the REST OF THE ROSTER), the opponent, etc.

As an aside: Jamison against Lebron in the playoffs in 2006: 19/7 on 42%.

Jamison WITH Lebron against the Bulls in 2010: 19/7 on 51%

First of all, no team would ever have Middleton as the top guy - he simply isn't good enough or viewed that way, while Jamison was viewed as a guy that could lead a team, and a playoff team at that - Jamison led a playoff team and Middleton could never, and wouldn't even be given the chance (not viewed as good enough like Jamison)

So that alone proves that Jamison was superior, in addition to his superior career stats across the board, or out-producing Lebron head-to-head.

So the point remains - Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton.. Giannis got his stats with half the hold-time of Lebron, so Middleton could thrive, while Jamison was destroyed by Bron's monopolization of the ball (just like Ingram, Kuzma, Bosh, etc, etc)

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 02:17 PM

First of all, no team would ever have Middleton as the top guy - he simply isn't good enough or viewed that way, while Jamison was viewed as a guy that could lead a team, and a playoff team at that - Jamison led a playoff team and Middleton could never, and wouldn't even be given the chance (not viewed as good enough like Jamison)

So that alone proves that Jamison was superior, in addition to his superior career stats across the board, or out-producing Lebron head-to-head.

So the point remains - Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton

He's led a team exactly one time. The 2009 Wizards. Peep that win total :lol

But fun fact: Jamison played in 9 playoff series in his career. Outside of the previously mentioned series, by FAR the second best was with Lebron. The 19.4 points is the second highest of his career and the 51 FG% is by FAR the highest. The 114 ORTG? Highest of his career as well...again by FAR.

One could argue that it was actually his best series.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 02:18 PM

He's led a team exactly one time. The 2009 Wizards. Peep that win total :lol

But fun fact: Jamison played in 9 playoff series in his career. Outside of the previously mentioned series, by FAR the second best was with Lebron. The 19.4 points is the second highest of his career and the 51 FG% is by FAR the highest. The 114 ORTG? Highest of his career as well...again by FAR.

One could argue that it was actually his best series.

Jamison was good enough to be a 1st option, while Middleton is a 2nd option.

that alone proves that Jamison was superior, in addition to his superior career stats across the board, or out-producing Lebron head-to-head.

So the point remains - Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton.. Giannis got his stats with half the hold-time of Lebron so Middleton could thrive, while Jamison was destroyed by Bron's monopolization of the ball (just like Ingram, Kuzma, Bosh, etc, etc)

Carry on ....

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 02:22 PM

Jamison was good enough to be a 1st option, while Middleton is a 2nd option.

that alone proves that Jamison was superior, in addition to his superior career stats across the board, or out-producing Lebron head-to-head.

So the point remains - Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton.. Giannis got his stats with half the hold-time of Lebron, so Middleton could thrive, while Jamison was destroyed by Bron's monopolization of the ball (just like Ingram, Kuzma, Bosh, etc, etc)

Carry on ....

The only time Jamison was EVER a first option was on a 19 win team. Why do you make people continue repeating themselves :lol

If you remove Giannis from the Bucks (which we saw in the ECF) we all know they're better than 19 wins. Significantly.

In conclusion: Jamison was the first option on a 19 win team, Middleton was the first option on a team that closed out the Eastern Conference Finals. Hmmmm.....

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 02:32 PM

Clark Kellog > Andrew Toney right? I mean Kellog was good enough to be the first option on his team and Toney wasn't even good enough to be SECOND. Damn..

StrongLurk

07-28-2021, 02:46 PM

Why do people even respond to the OP anymore? He is the biggest troll on ISH.

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 02:49 PM

Why do people even respond to the OP anymore? He is the biggest troll on ISH.

Sometimes it's fun to destroy an argument only to have the goalpost moved after you do.

It's like playing whack-a-mole but you whack all of them.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 02:49 PM

The only time Jamison was EVER a first option was on a 19 win team. Why do you make people continue repeating themselves :lol

If you remove Giannis from the Bucks (which we saw in the ECF) we all know they're better than 19 wins. Significantly.

In conclusion: Jamison was the first option on a 19 win team, Middleton was the first option on a team that closed out the Eastern Conference Finals. Hmmmm.....

2008 Wizards - 41 wins (.500).. Arenas hurt all year (played 13 games)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2021/JVVHWN.gif

Jamison was good enough to be a 1st option, while Middleton is a 2nd option.

that alone proves that Jamison was superior, in addition to his superior career stats across the board, or out-producing Lebron head-to-head.

So the point remains - Jamison was a better player than Middleton but Lebron destroyed him, instead of elevating him to lofty heights like Giannis did with Middleton.. Giannis got his stats with half the hold-time of Lebron so Middleton could thrive, while Jamison was destroyed by Bron's monopolization of the ball (just like Ingram, Kuzma, Bosh, etc, etc)

Carry on ....

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 02:57 PM

3ba11

07-28-2021, 03:13 PM

2008 Wizards:

Caron Butler- 20.7 PER, .150 WS/48, 4.1 BPM, 3.5 VORP
Antawn Jamison- 20.3 PER, .144 WS/48, 1.7 BPM, 2.9 VORP

So it's obvious that Butler was the best player on the team. And obviously he was the leader.

But you know what, since I'm a nice guy..I'll give you 2008. The 41 win team eastern conference team. Take it, big guy.

What'd he do in first round of the playoffs (against Lebron)? 17 on 40%. Some first option :lol. He had a much better series playing WITH Lebron against the Bulls in 2010.

While Middleton is closing the conference finals. Hmmm...

Is Clark Kellogg better than Andrew Toney though????? I mean one was clearly good enough to be a first option..

Jamison was also the clear-cut #1 option on the 01-03' Warriors, in addition to the 08' Wizards

So he was a #1 option and therefore superior to a 2nd option like Middleton, especially when we consider his superior career stats and peak performance (out-producing Lebron head-to-head).

And who cares about Kellogg because his career was cut short. I actually met him when I was a kid

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 03:26 PM

Jamison was also the clear-cut #1 option on the 01-03' Warriors, in addition to the 08' Wizards

So he was a #1 option and therefore superior to a 2nd option like Middleton, especially when we consider his superior career stats and peak performance (out-producing Lebron head-to-head).

Oh that's right. Those Warriors winning 20 games a year or whatever. Forgot about that.

Middleton's 24/6 is better than what Jamison did on a terrible team. As a second option. Can you imagine if he was the first option? Well you don't have to. He closed out a conference finals series.

And who cares about Kellogg because his career was cut short

We care because he was the first option on a team in 1983 and Toney wasn't even second. You premise states, essentially: "first option, regardless of how good the team is > second option, regardless of how good the team is".

That's you.

RRR3

07-28-2021, 03:54 PM

Like Kblaze said it’s incredible that someone can take a premise that most agree with (Michael Jordan is GOAT) and come away looking like a complete ****ing moron.

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 03:55 PM

Clark Kellog > Andrew Toney right? I mean Kellog was good enough to be the first option on his team and Toney wasn't even good enough to be SECOND. Damn..
Antawn Jamison > Stockton, Parker, Manu & Klay

RRR3

07-28-2021, 04:00 PM

Antawn Jamison > Stockton, Parker, Manu & Klay
Remember when bricksman said he was better than Kareem? Or was it equal to Kareem? Either way, meth induced comment.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 04:00 PM

Antawn Jamison > Stockton, Parker, Manu & Klay

Jamison doesn't have better career stats or peak performance than those guys - but his superior stats, peak performance, and perception as a #1 option from his first seasons in the NBA make him superior to a career 2nd option and lower producer like Middleton

jlip

07-28-2021, 04:05 PM

3ball has got to be on the ISH payroll. :facepalm:facepalm:facepalm

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 04:06 PM

We're throwing out "perceptions as a #1 option" now :roll:

3ba11

07-28-2021, 04:09 PM

We're throwing out "perceptions as a #1 option" now :roll:

Perception is reality - Jamison was viewed as a #1 option from his first seasons in the league, so he infact WAS a #1 option.. Otoh, Middleton is a career 2nd option and lower producer

So I've provided all the evidence, such as the Jamison/Middleton stats and respective roles

Furthermore, Lebron's abnormally-high hold-time for a forward is twice that of Giannis, so Lebron cratered a superior player like Jamison, while Giannis' more efficient use of hold-time allowed Middleton the capacity to thrive.

again, these are STATISTICS that have clear-cut interpretations.. don't play dumb or ignore them because they'll just get re-introduced to effectively crush your rebuttals or deflections

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 04:16 PM

Perception is reality - Jamison was viewed as a #1 option from his first seasons in the league, so he infact WAS a #1 option.. Otoh, Middleton is a career 2nd option and lower producer

So I've provided all the evidence, such as the Jamison/Middleton stats and respective roles

Furthermore, Lebron's abnormally-high hold-time for a forward is twice that of Giannis, so Lebron cratered a superior player like Jamison, while Giannis' more efficient use of hold-time allowed Middleton the capacity to thrive.

again, these are STATISTICS that have clear-cut interpretations.. don't play dumb or ignore them because they'll just get re-introduced to effectively crush your rebuttals or deflections

The perception is that Lebron James is the second best player of all time.

Too easy.

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 04:21 PM

Jamison doesn't have better career stats or peak performance than those guys - but his superior stats, peak performance, and perception as a #1 option from his first seasons in the NBA make him superior to a career 2nd option and lower producer like Middleton
He absolutely does. He has more career points than all 4 of them AND a higher peak ppg than those 4 ever achieved in the regular season or playoffs. How the fck would your arguments against Middleton NOT apply directly to those 4 :lol Specifically Manu & Klay

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 04:21 PM

The perception is that Lebron James is the second best player of all time.

Too easy.
Damn, lets see how he tries to worm his way outta that one :oldlol:

Let's not forget the perception Pippen's a top 30ish player of all time and 7x All-NBA in his era

RRR3

07-28-2021, 04:23 PM

Snivelball has to be the single most destroyed poster in ISH history. Every thread he makes he gets abused in.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 04:27 PM

Damn, lets see how he tries to worm his way outta that one :oldlol:

Jamison was a #1 option from his first seasons in the league - it was reality, whereas Lebron manufactured a resume via super-teams despite having better teammates than Giannis - that's fraud

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 04:32 PM

Jamison was a #1 option from his first seasons in the league - it was reality, whereas Lebron manufactured a resume via super-teams despite having better teammates than Giannis - that's fraud

So was Brandon Jennings.

But what your saying is "perception = reality. Unless I don't agree with that reality. In which case fvck what the perception is"

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 04:34 PM

Jamison was a #1 option from his first seasons in the league - it was reality, whereas Lebron manufactured a resume via super-teams despite having better teammates than Giannis - that's fraud
I see you completely avoided the first post I made where we both know your arguments against Middleton could easily be applied to those 4 other HOF's. Let's see if you ever actually address it. And this is just a pitiful, Jordan in the 3 point contest level rebuttal :lol

3ba11

07-28-2021, 04:35 PM

Snivelball has to be the single most destroyed poster in ISH history. Every thread he makes he gets abused in.

I'm killing these guys per the usual and here's how much I'm killing them - I'm going to tell them what they should've said to shut me down:

Giannis got to grow with Middleton from day 1, while Lebron got Jamison mid-season on the backside of his career.. Night and day...

Now if anyone would've made this effective point, I would've countered by saying that Lebron's game cratered Jamison and he was gifted NUMEROUS players on Middleton's level, such as Hughes, Mo or the East all-star center (Zydrunas) - but Lebron's abnormal hold-times gradually cratered them all... He squandered all his "middletons"

This wouldn't have won the argument but effectively stalemated it..

But unfortunately, you guys don't respect or acknowledge "organic growth", so it never occurred to you to make this point

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 04:39 PM

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 04:39 PM

I'm killing these guys per the usual and here's how much I'm killing them - I'm going to tell them what they should've said to shut me down:

Giannis got to grow with Middleton from day 1, while Lebron got Jamison mid-season on the backside of his career.. Night and day...

Now if anyone would've made this effective point, I would've countered by saying that Lebron's game cratered Jamison and he was gifted NUMEROUS players on Middleton's level, such as Hughes, Mo or the East all-star center (Zydrunas) - but Lebron's abnormal hold-times gradually cratered them all... He squandered all his "middletons"

This wouldn't have won the argument but effectively stalemated it..

But unfortunately, you guys don't respect or acknowledge "organic growth", so it never occurred to you to make this point

Yea ok :lol

3ba11

07-28-2021, 04:46 PM

As an aside...we have 2 guys who Lebron supposedly ruined (Jamison and Hughes) playing on the same team together in 2002. Why was it that that team was only able to muster 21 wins? I thought these guys were studs who deserve 16-18 shots on championship caliber teams? Yeesh

They were young pups - Lebron was actually gifted the decorated, veteran version of these guys but his weak brand of ball-dominance lost embarrassingly with them..

Not surprisingly, the elite jumpshooter and off-guard Arenas maximized Hughes and Jamison - Lebron saw this and promptly stole Hughes from Arenas in 06' - then he beat Arenas with his ex-sidekick, smh

If Lebron had the elite jumpshooting and off-ball game (lower hold-time) to fit with Hughes or Jamison, he would've been getting Pippen production out of both (like Arenas did)

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 04:58 PM

They were young pups - Lebron was actually gifted the decorated, veteran version of these guys but his weak brand of ball-dominance lost embarrassingly with them..

Not surprisingly, the elite jumpshooter and off-guard Arenas maximized Hughes and Jamison - Lebron saw this and promptly stole Hughes from Arenas in 06' - then he beat Arenas with his ex-sidekick, smh

If Lebron had the elite jumpshooting and off-ball game (lower hold-time) to fit with Hughes or Jamison, he would've been getting Pippen production out of both (like Arenas did)

And Lebron got the old version of Jamison. Still managed to get arguably the best playoff series he's ever had out of him (That is, if you value efficiency and advanced metrics; if you value volume scoring on a 19 win team then it was his second best series).

Hughes actually had a great series against Washington in 2007 as well (when the Cavs swept the Wizards). Unfortunately he was banged up in the ECF and finals. So we'll never get to see what he and Lebron were truly capable of (he was also hurt in 06 against Detroit). Oh well..

I don't think they beat the Spurs but it could have been a significantly different series.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 05:15 PM

And Lebron got the old version of Jamison. Still managed to get arguably the best playoff series he's ever had out of him (That is, if you value efficiency and advanced metrics; if you value volume scoring on a 19 win team then it was his second best series).

Hughes actually had a great series against Washington in 2007 as well (when the Cavs swept the Wizards). Unfortunately he was banged up in the ECF and finals. So we'll never get to see what he and Lebron were truly capable of (he was also hurt in 06 against Detroit). Oh well..

I don't think they beat the Spurs but it could have been a significantly different series.

Jamison wasn't that old and still getting 21/9 before Lebron picked him up midseason..

But regardless of circumstance, Lebron squandered 4 decorated "Middletons" before executing the "decision"

I can understand excuses for 1 or 2 of them.... But all 4?... That's a clear trend which is further substantiated by reduction of teammates on future super-teams or other teams from 2011 to 2021...

Ultimately, the story of Lebron's entire career is needing MOAR HELP - and we know why - his abnormal hold-time for a forward (simpleton skillset, aka ball-dominance) cratered nearly all player-types (except elite shooters)...

Not only did teammates see their PPG decrease, but their entire role was reduced to spot-up player - specifically, Lebron reduced the assists of teammates (playmaking) and increased their assisted rate (play-finishing).. the stats tell the whole story of Lebron's suboptimal brand of ball, and subsequent need for extra talent to offset the weak brand (super-teams)

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 05:21 PM

Jamison wasn't that old and still getting 21/9 before Lebron picked him up midseason..

But regardless of circumstance, Lebron squandered 4 decorated "Middletons" before executing the "decision"

I can understand excuses for 1 or 2 of them.... But all 4?... That's a clear trend which is further substantiated by reduction of teammates on future super-teams or other teams from 2011 to 2021...

Ultimately, the story of Lebron's entire career is needing MOAR HELP - and we know why - his abnormal hold-time for a forward (simpleton skillset, aka ball-dominance) cratered nearly all player-types (except elite shooters)...

Not only did teammates see their PPG decrease, but their entire role was reduced to spot-up player - specifically, Lebron reduced the assists of teammates (playmaking) and increased their assisted rate (play-finishing).. the stats tell the whole story of Lebron's suboptimal brand of ball, and subsequent need for extra talent to offset the weak brand (super-teams)

Who were these 4 "decorated" (lol) Middletons?

By Middletons, you mean the type of guy who can lead a team to the finals and then go for 25 a game once there. Even going with the premise that Jamison and Hughes (lololol) were that caliber of player, who were the others? I'm assuming you don't mean Mo Williams, as he had by far the best year of his career playing alongside Lebron in 2009.

ralph_i_el

07-28-2021, 06:04 PM

Jamison also sucked on defense. He's going to have the most points of anyone to not make the HoF.

3ba11

07-28-2021, 06:48 PM

Who were these 4 "decorated" (lol) Middletons?

By Middletons, you mean the type of guy who can lead a team to the finals and then go for 25 a game once there. Even going with the premise that Jamison and Hughes (lololol) were that caliber of player, who were the others? I'm assuming you don't mean Mo Williams, as he had by far the best year of his career playing alongside Lebron in 2009.

* Hughes was 1st team all-defense and the steals champ in 05' before Lebron stole him away from Arenas (22/6/5 stats)

* Zydrunas was a 2-time all-star center and top 5 shot-blocker

* Jamison was a 2-time all-star

* Mo was an all-star and led the league in 3-point makes per game in 09'

^^^ 4 Middletons squandered and not elevated to the heights that Giannis elevated Middleton

The low hold-time of Giannis gave Middleton the capacity to play at a high level, while Lebron's abnornally-high hold-time reduced 4 Middletons.

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 06:56 PM

RRR3

07-28-2021, 06:58 PM

Never forget Snivelball lied about being a D1 superstar and made up a crazy story where he dunked on Zach Randolph 4 times :roll:

3ba11

07-28-2021, 07:00 PM

He absolutely does. He has more career points than all 4 of them AND a higher peak ppg than those 4 ever achieved in the regular season or playoffs. How the fck would your arguments against Middleton NOT apply directly to those 4 :lol Specifically Manu & Klay

Career points mean nothing.. You lost right there.. And Stockton is 8th all-time in BPM and assist champ - Jamison's stats don't compare...

Tony Parker was FMVP and all-nba...

But you're right about Klay or Manu - they're "middletons" (perfect name tbh) and Jamison is comparable to them - Klay was never much help for Curry, but the strategic advantage propped up the team... briefly

Anyway, I don't see how any of this refutes the point - Lebron had a bunch of "middletons" and couldn't do shit.

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 07:05 PM

Career points mean nothing.. You lost right there.. And Stockton is 8th all-time in BPM and assist champ - Jamison's stats don't compare...

Tony Parker was FMVP and all-nba...

But you're right about Klay or Manu - they're "middletons" (perfect name tbh) and Jamison is comparable to them - Klay was never much help for Curry, but the strategic advantage propped up the team... briefly

Anyway, I don't see how any of this refutes the point - Lebron had a bunch of "middletons" and couldn't do shit.
Yikes, Klay and Manu Jamison caliber :biggums: Not even your biggest supporters are gonna back you on that shit :lol Nor would anyone who watches basketball

3ba11

07-28-2021, 07:07 PM

Yikes, Klay and Manu Jamison caliber :biggums: Not even your biggest supporters are gonna back you on that shit :lol Nor would anyone who actually watches basketball

Jamison was stuck on losing teams and then with Lebron... that's the whole point... if prime Jamison played alongside Duncan and Parker, he'd be Manu... it's easy to look good as 3rd option alongside goats like Duncan and KD that elevate your play and perception...

Again, we're talking about middleton here... Jamison was absolutely better than him, but he never got to play with a goat like Giannis... He was stuck with Lebron stealing his hold-time, thus robbing him of the capacity to produce..

this is statistical fact for Jamison and all of Lebron's teammates... Lebron's simpleton skillset (ball-dominance) requires too much hold-time to win consistently with ANY cast - that's the historical record.

tpols

07-28-2021, 07:15 PM

Jamison wasn't that old and still getting 21/9 before Lebron picked him up midseason..

Amazing. Better numbers than Memphis Pau who was 0-12 in the playoffs and everybody FREAKED out about him joining Kobe. Goes to show the media bias between the golden boy and sellout (Lebron) and Kobe (the villain).

tpols

07-28-2021, 07:20 PM

Jamison also sucked on defense. He's going to have the most points of anyone to not make the HoF.

Cavs had an elite ranked defense despite that. He wasn't great defensively but Jamison was a lotto pick all star talent out of the stacked 90s UNC. Who everybody swept under the rug and acted like never existed. When we hear about lebron help its always "but mo wiliamsss" when the reality is he had numerous other all stars and great defense as his support.

RRR3

07-28-2021, 07:23 PM

Snivelpols and snivelball, the two GOAT whiny bitches on ISH :bowdown:

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 08:39 PM

Amazing. Better numbers than Memphis Pau who was 0-12 in the playoffs and everybody FREAKED out about him joining Kobe. Goes to show the media bias between the golden boy and sellout (Lebron) and Kobe (the villain).

It also goes to show that posting solely PPG/REB might not be the best way to compare two basketball players.

tpols

07-28-2021, 08:48 PM

It also goes to show that posting solely PPG/REB might not be the best way to compare two basketball players.

Pau was soft as shit on defense bro. Better passer, but worse scorer at their peaks. Boozer and Bosh got all NBA nods over Pau and Jamison.

RRR3

07-28-2021, 08:48 PM

It also goes to show that posting solely PPG/REB might not be the best way to compare two basketball players.
ORTG (snivelpols’ favorite stat) joining Kobe and LeBron respectively

Pau: 114
Jamison: 109

He picks and chooses stats to use. He loves ORTG usually but not when it exposes Kobe as being worse than LeBron.

SATAN

07-28-2021, 08:51 PM

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/app/uploads/2019/03/Terry-Cummings-650x396.jpg

SATAN

07-28-2021, 08:52 PM

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 08:54 PM

Pau was soft as shit on defense bro. Better passer, but worse scorer at their peaks. Boozer and Bosh got all NBA nods over Pau and Jamison.

No. Just because he scored a an extra point or so on a bad team doesn't mean he was a better scorer. Pau was a reliable go-to guy against good defensive teams. He could get his 20/10 against pretty much whoever, with few exceptions. Jamison...not so much. Look at how his playoff numbers, and particularly FG%, dipped dramatically. No such trend exists for Pau.

Which means he's a more solid basketball player. The advanced numbers back this up too. As does his international play.

I know you know all this though.

SouBeachTalents

07-28-2021, 09:03 PM

So now Jamison is better than or equal to Klay, Manu & Gasol :lol I wonder what other HOF's will be put on Jamison's level through the rest of this thread

tpols

07-28-2021, 09:08 PM

No. Just because he scored a an extra point or so on a bad team doesn't mean he was a better scorer. Pau was a reliable go-to guy against good defensive teams. He could get his 20/10 against pretty much whoever, with few exceptions. Jamison...not so much. Look at how his playoff numbers, and particularly FG%, dipped dramatically. No such trend exists for Pau.

Which means he's a more solid basketball player. The advanced numbers back this up too. As does his international play.

I know you know all this though.

Both Jamison and Pau were first round sweeps back then. If one was a loser they both were. At least Jamison could hang 32/10. Pau never did that in the playoffs ever in his whole career. Both were simple all stars and not voted All NBA with their respective original teams.

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 09:18 PM

Both Jamison and Pay were first round sweeps back then.

Use context my friend. Pau is getting swept by Duncan, Dirk, and Nash squads with guys like James Posey and Mike Miller as the other best players on the team. The 2006 Grizzlies literally only had one other player in double figures in that series against the Mavs: Eddie Jones...10.3 PPG. Chucky Atkins was at 9.8 so I guess you can count him if you want.

Both were simple all stars and not voted All NBA with their respective original teams.

That doesn't make them equal. That's just one thing that they have in common.

Axe

07-28-2021, 10:46 PM

Axe

07-28-2021, 10:48 PM

TheCorporation

07-28-2021, 11:00 PM

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/app/uploads/2019/03/Terry-Cummings-650x396.jpg

https://www.blackenterprise.com/files/2010/08/JohnRogers.jpg

Shut it down

ShawkFactory

07-28-2021, 11:17 PM

Jamison was stuck on losing teams and then with Lebron... that's the whole point... if prime Jamison played alongside Duncan and Parker, he'd be Manu... it's easy to look good as 3rd option alongside goats like Duncan and KD that elevate your play and perception...

Again, we're talking about middleton here... Jamison was absolutely better than him, but he never got to play with a goat like Giannis... He was stuck with Lebron stealing his hold-time, thus robbing him of the capacity to produce..

this is statistical fact for Jamison and all of Lebron's teammates... Lebron's simpleton skillset (ball-dominance) requires too much hold-time to win consistently with ANY cast - that's the historical record.

What about what happened to him in 2004?

Went from scoring 22.2 in 2003 (the exact same as the season before joining Lebron) to 14.8 the next year. Dude didn't even start for the Mavs. In the playoffs he got 21 minutes a game :lol

Lebron killed him doe

kawhileonard2

07-28-2021, 11:56 PM

He went from Pippen to better than LeBron in a span of a few weeks. :roll:

We all know you were punching the air when KD got eliminated, because deep down you know Giannis is LeBron, both athletic freaks who don't require off-ball movement to score.

Booker is better than Lebron as well. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently