Kevin Garnett as a playoff scorer

[Nowitness]

Of the top 5 scoring games in Minnesota history, KG only has 1 game.

Sam Cassel in 2004 had two 40 point playoff games. KG never scored more than 35 in any playoff game, ever.

Troy Hudson has a higher playoff scoring game than Ticket.

KG has less 30 point playoff games than Dwight Howard.

Isn't it clear cut of the 2000 PFs KG is clearly 3rd best? When it was nut crunching time he couldn't raise his game offensively and wasn't a dominant interior defender. Two things you need to win.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yup. KG's biggest weakness was scoring; something that's most important when it comes to star players. He doesn't have that fundamental offense like other greats. He's one of only a few all-time greats to shoot below league average efficiency in the playoffs.

I've always seen him as a supercharged Scottie Pippen type.

[MadDog]

Never understood the other forum's obsession for KG. Sure he's an ALL TIME defender and anchor, but scoring is half the game. Duncan was everything KG was but also a better scorer. I think Duncan's leadership was also better, and his personality resonated more.

[Im Still Ballin]

Never understood the other forum's obsession for KG. Sure he's an ALL TIME defender and anchor, but scoring is half the game. Duncan was everything KG was but also a better scorer. I think Duncan's leadership was also better, and his personality resonated more.

He's popular with the analytics/stat nerd crowd. His advanced statistics are quite impressive; but so were Andrei Kirilenko's, Russell Westbrook's, and Scottie Pippen's.

[Im Still Ballin]

Can you win a championship with KG as your best player? Yes: Boston did it; even though Paul got the FMVP, KG was the #1 guy on that team.

But offensively speaking, it was a big three, triumvirate situation. The FGA between KG, Ray, and Paul was, I believe, not that large.

Could KG ever undisputedly lead a championship team like Dirk did? Absolutely not.

Guys like Kobe/McGrady would've been perfect for KG; like an alternate reality MJ/Pippen.

On a lesser degree, could he win with say, a Michael Redd, or Khris Middleton? Maybe. It'd depend on how well the roster is constructed. He could've subbed right into that Detroit team and won easily.

KG is really in that Bill Russell, Bill Walton, Scottie Pippen mold. Tim Duncan was sort of similar, but he had a more reliable offensive game; more inline with Shaq/Robinson/Hakeem/Kareem. Maybe not to their extent, but good enough -- a level above the former mentioned.

[lakerstekkenn]

Can you win a championship with KG as your best player? Yes: Boston did it; even though Paul got the FMVP, KG was the #1 guy on that team.

But offensively speaking, it was a big three, triumvirate situation. The FGA between KG, Ray, and Paul was, I believe, not that large.

Could KG ever undisputedly lead a championship team like Dirk did? Absolutely not.

Guys like Kobe/McGrady would've been perfect for KG; like an alternate reality MJ/Pippen.

On a lesser degree, could he win with say, a Michael Redd, or Khris Middleton? Maybe. It'd depend on how well the roster is constructed. He could've subbed right into that Detroit team and won easily.

KG is really in that Bill Russell, Bill Walton, Scottie Pippen mold. Tim Duncan was sort of similar, but he had a more reliable offensive game; more inline with Shaq/Robinson/Hakeem/Kareem. Maybe not to their extent, but good enough -- a level above the former mentioned.

Dirk had a better team around him, deeper talent, they were built like Kobe's Lakers championship team, but with better deeper talent more mismatches on offense, the Lakers got rid of their bench core but didn't upgrade, their starters were leaned on heavily to win that year but they couldn't outscore Dirks team, Dirks team was so deep & talented they beat Miami with their big three, put KG on that team they still win a ring, prime KG who could do everything, Put KG on the Spurs championship team and he's winning rings just like Duncan, KG western conference semi finals against The Kings game 7, 32 PTS, 21 REB, 5 BLK.

[90sgoat]

He just didn't look to score consistently. When he did, it usually went ok.

Most of the time he took fadeaway midrange shots though. Didn't have any reliable moves to get easy buckets.

Offensively he was actually quite similar to LaMarcus Aldridge, but he would have been better with a faceup game like David West.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Definitely one of the most overrated players ever. His scoring efficiency in the playoffs sucked. He was 3rd option scorer during his only finals win. He never really consistently anchored good defensive teams either until his Boston days.

Not even a top 35 GOAT.

Pretty much a hyped up rich man's draymond green

[DMAVS41]

Dirk had a better team around him, deeper talent, they were built like Kobe's Lakers championship team, but with better deeper talent more mismatches on offense, the Lakers got rid of their bench core but didn't upgrade, their starters were leaned on heavily to win that year but they couldn't outscore Dirks team, Dirks team was so deep & talented they beat Miami with their big three, put KG on that team they still win a ring, prime KG who could do everything, Put KG on the Spurs championship team and he's winning rings just like Duncan, KG western conference semi finals against The Kings game 7, 32 PTS, 21 REB, 5 BLK.

The 11 Mavs supporting cast rates as one of the worst to ever win the title...probably only Hakeem's 94 help or Duncan's 03 help are worse...and neither of those would be clear either.

I do think KG could lead a team to the title as the clear #1 (people forget the 04 season / playoffs)...but lets not pretend the 11 Mavs were something they weren't. They sucked all year without Dirk on the floor and the individual players were not noteworthy for a title winning team either.

[FireDavidKahn]

KG could score just fine in his prime in the play offs. From 2001-02 through his MVP year in 03-04 he averaged 25 ppg, 15 rpg, 5 apg, 1.4 spg, 2 bpg along with all-time great defense that doesn't show up in simple box score lines....and remember this was a time in the league where scoring was supposedly tougher.

He is a victim of Glen Taylor. You switch Tim Duncan with KG and KG would have been the one who won 5 championships with the Spurs (not the same ones obviously) while Duncan would have been ringless in Minnesota.

[Horatio33]

KG scored 37 in game 7 vs the Kings in 2004.

[90sgoat]

he averaged 25 ppg

Yes, but it wasn't pro-active.

It was like AD, got his in the flow of the game, but a lot of his points, were the type that any teammate could have gotten.

[FireDavidKahn]

Yes, but it wasn't pro-active.

It was like AD, got his in the flow of the game, but a lot of his points, were the type that any teammate could have gotten.

The flaw with this theory is that if it was so easy...then others would have been doing it:roll:

If it was so easy then it truly proves that Garnett played with the worst teammates of all time if 99% of them in his tenure in Minnesota couldn't do it

[TAZORAC]

Garnett could give you about 23-25 PPG if he really tried. He could be bumped out of the paint, similar to Durant

[90sgoat]

The flaw with this theory is that if it was so easy...then others would have been doing it:roll:

If it was so easy then it truly proves that Garnett played with the worst teammates of all time if 99% of them in his tenure in Minnesota couldn't do it

I see your point, so let me try to explain what I mean.

KG didn't have a "bully ball" game like Shaq/Duncan, nor did he have a finesse back to basket game like Hakeem.

He was LaMarcus Aldridge in the half court, shooting fades.

He was elite in the fastbreak.

KG needed to work much harder for his points than someone like Shaq/Duncan, because could just back people down and do a few feigns and get an easy bucket.

[Reggie43]

Kg is Kg. He could have the worst teammates and he still wouldnt put scoring as his main priority. He was a very good playmaker, a great rebounder/defender while scoring 22-25 ppg without really trying and he was a great teammate to boot what more could you ask for?

[Im Still Ballin]

Kg is Kg. He could have the worst teammates and he still wouldnt put scoring as his main priority. He was a very good playmaker, a great rebounder/defender while scoring 22-25 ppg without really trying and he was a great teammate to boot what more could you ask for?

More efficient scoring.

[tpols]

Prime KG got all his playoff stats on the twolves in a brutal western conference where he had no help, and 1 year in Boston where he let Ray Allen and Paul Pierce take some shine so he could focus on defense even more. KG was basically AD with less long range shooting but much crazier finishing at his peaks. Compare prime KGs dunks to ADs... He hit harder. Played in a brutal era full of goons ('00-'04) tho.

[lakerstekkenn]

The 11 Mavs supporting cast rates as one of the worst to ever win the title...probably only Hakeem's 94 help or Duncan's 03 help are worse...and neither of those would be clear either.

I do think KG could lead a team to the title as the clear #1 (people forget the 04 season / playoffs)...but lets not pretend the 11 Mavs were something they weren't. They sucked all year without Dirk on the floor and the individual players were not noteworthy for a title winning team either.

They had inside presence length three point shooting and a slashing point guard, they beat James three all stars to win the title and dethroned Kobe and the Lakers, they had a deep bench. Dallas was 57 & 25 the Lakers were also 57 & 25, The Spurs had the best record at 61 & 21.


Now after they won the title and they weren't hungry anymore, then Dirk gets injured that's a different story, but don't act like they didn't have a good team that complemented Dirk and could shut Miami down especially James and beat Kobe & the Lakers in 4, after that only they know, they also beat the Thunder who beat them next year this team wasn't the same Odom played with no interest and messed up the team because he was traded then kept then traded to Dallas when the Lakers were going to get him back anyway. Chandler was gone a defensive anchor, Peja retired and Kidd was a year older had a bad back, so that was a different team the next year they should've just kept everyone and replaced Peja but maybe they lost their chemistry but that wasn't the same team, with hunger.

[Phoenix]

Not even a top 35 GOAT.



There's a line between a reasonable take and shit that should get you locked up and evaluated. He's comfortably a top 25 GOAT, anywhere between 18 and 25 isn't unreasonable as there's alot of guys in that 15-25 range that are generally on the same tier.

[plowking]

There's a line between a reasonable take and shit that should get you locked up and evaluated. He's comfortably a top 25 GOAT, anywhere between 18 and 25 isn't unreasonable as there's alot of guys in that 15-25 range that are generally on the same tier.

This forum shits on players like David Robinson, yet KG isn't close to as talented or good as D-Rob was.

No way in hell is he a top 25 player ever either.

[Phoenix]

This forum shits on players like David Robinson, yet KG isn't close to as talented or good as D-Rob was.

No way in hell is he a top 25 player ever either.

He's closer to 25 than he is 35, but really I don't get hung up to large extents on rankings especially after the elite of the elite. If I think he's #24 and you think he's 37th, whatever. The guys between those space are all first ballot HOFs, probably have a ring or two and maybe even an MVP in some cases. We're nitpicking greatness for the sake of a list where everyone is measuring it differently.

[DMAVS41]

They had inside presence length three point shooting and a slashing point guard, they beat James three all stars to win the title and dethroned Kobe and the Lakers, they had a deep bench. Dallas was 57 & 25 the Lakers were also 57 & 25, The Spurs had the best record at 61 & 21.


Now after they won the title and they weren't hungry anymore, then Dirk gets injured that's a different story, but don't act like they didn't have a good team that complemented Dirk and could shut Miami down especially James and beat Kobe & the Lakers in 4, after that only they know, they also beat the Thunder who beat them next year this team wasn't the same Odom played with no interest and messed up the team because he was traded then kept then traded to Dallas when the Lakers were going to get him back anyway. Chandler was gone a defensive anchor, Peja retired and Kidd was a year older had a bad back, so that was a different team the next year they should've just kept everyone and replaced Peja but maybe they lost their chemistry but that wasn't the same team, with hunger.

Of course they had a good team around Dirk...they won the title. I simply said it was one of the worst supporting casts to win the title.

Take a look at this: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

The Mavs, according to that list, had the 2nd worst supporting cast outside of the star player, to ever win the title. Only Hakeem's 94 team rates out worse. Of course that isn't the end all be all, but when Dirk's 11, Hakeem's 94, and Duncan's 03 all wind up at the bottom or close to the bottom of the list...which exactly matches up with what a reasonable person would expect...hard to not give it some credibility.

Again, there is no contradiction between calling them a good supporting cast and one of the worst supporting casts to win the title. Not sure what you are talking about.

In addition, yes, they won 57 games...they also were 2-7 without Dirk and were negative 5.4 points per 100 possessions without Dirk on the floor all year. That has to be extremely rare for title teams...and even worse in this case...it wasn't like they were some top heavy loaded team with 2 or 3 stars.

They didn't have a second all-nba caliber option....it was just a really good team that stepped up when it mattered most and won the title. Doesn't take away from what they did, but that supporting cast just is at or near the bottom of the title winning supporting casts in NBA history.

[lakerstekkenn]

Of course they had a good team around Dirk...they won the title. I simply said it was one of the worst supporting casts to win the title.

Take a look at this: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

The Mavs, according to that list, had the 2nd worst supporting cast outside of the star player, to ever win the title. Only Hakeem's 94 team rates out worse. Of course that isn't the end all be all, but when Dirk's 11, Hakeem's 94, and Duncan's 03 all wind up at the bottom or close to the bottom of the list...which exactly matches up with what a reasonable person would expect...hard to not give it some credibility.

Again, there is no contradiction between calling them a good supporting cast and one of the worst supporting casts to win the title. Not sure what you are talking about.

In addition, yes, they won 57 games...they also were 2-7 without Dirk and were negative 5.4 points per 100 possessions without Dirk on the floor all year. That has to be extremely rare for title teams...and even worse in this case...it wasn't like they were some top heavy loaded team with 2 or 3 stars.

They didn't have a second all-nba caliber option....it was just a really good team that stepped up when it mattered most and won the title. Doesn't take away from what they did, but that supporting cast just is at or near the bottom of the title winning supporting casts in NBA history.



So they are claiming the 2011 James team was better then the 2011 Mavericks championship team based on their stats bu Dallas beat them easily embarrassing That big three ? those stats don't make sense because they contradict reality History, Miami should've never lost because they had the top 10 best bench in the history of Basketball Shaq in Orlando had top 9 but lost to Huston who's team is rank 30th the worst ever you can't measure heart the will to win offense sets defense hustle and coaching, so your numbers are flawed and wrong.

They have the 1987 Lakers back to back champions ranked 19th worst supporting cast of all time with Kareem Worthy Thompson Cooper Scott are they crazy ? 88 Lakers are ranked worse then Hakeem Huston championship team in 1995 ? 1987 Boston Celtics with Larry legend supporting cast is ranked below everyone almost last ? that team was incredible deep as hell with major roll player talent, better then Magics Lakers whom they beat until eventually The Lakers beat them in 1987 4 games to 2.

[plowking]

He's closer to 25 than he is 35, but really I don't get hung up to large extents on rankings especially after the elite of the elite. If I think he's #24 and you think he's 37th, whatever. The guys between those space are all first ballot HOFs, probably have a ring or two and maybe even an MVP in some cases. We're nitpicking greatness for the sake of a list where everyone is measuring it differently.


Nah, KG very much falls in the 50-100 range.

I get that he was a jack of all trades type that had very aesthetically pleasing numbers for advanced stats and all that, but his effectiveness on the game isn't that of other all time greats.

I just wouldn't take him over the 2nd and 3rd tier greats like Barkley, Ewing, CP3, etc.

Guys like Harden, Jokic, Kawhi, Giannis, AD, etc have already come through and shown more. AD being the one exception because he, like Garnett went off and became a second fiddle to achieve something, though at this point, AD is the better player over LeBron.

For as much as he is meme'd and made fun of, Dwight achieved more as a first option compared to Garnett, and did so with a supporting cast on the same level.

[DMAVS41]

So they are claiming the 2011 James team was better then the 2011 Mavericks championship team based on their stats bu Dallas beat them easily embarrassing That big three ? those stats don't make sense because they contradict reality History, Miami should've never lost because they had the top 10 best bench in the history of Basketball Shaq in Orlando had top 9 but lost to Huston who's team is rank 30th the worst ever you can't measure heart the will to win offense sets defense hustle and coaching, so your numbers are flawed and wrong.

They have the 1987 Lakers back to back champions ranked 19th worst supporting cast of all time with Kareem Worthy Thompson Cooper Scott are they crazy ? 88 Lakers are ranked worse then Hakeem Huston championship team in 1995 ? 1987 Boston Celtics with Larry legend supporting cast is ranked below everyone almost last ? that team was incredible deep as hell with major roll player talent, better then Magics Lakers whom they beat until eventually The Lakers beat them in 1987 4 games to 2.

You seem confused again.

They are claiming that the supporting cast around Lebron in 11 was better than the supporting cast around Dirk. Again, not sure what you aren't understanding. If Lebron had matched Dirk in the Finals instead of playing much worse, the Heat probably sweep...hence the better supporting cast.

My numbers? They aren't my numbers...thats a statistical analysis of the teammates each star had on teams that made the finals...

Again, I literally said it is not the "end all be all"...but that you can't just ignore them as they line up with reality for most people...literally Dirk 11/Hakeem 94/Duncan 03 have been referenced for years before this came out as clearly weaker title winning supporting cast.

You can not agree, and that is fine, but you are going to need to bring some evidence as to why the 11 Mavs without Dirk were so great...why they sucked all year when he wasn't on the floor, weren't individually noteworthy as players in a multi-year analysis, were commonly thought of as nothing noteworthy, and went 2-7 in the 9 games Dirk missed that year.

They were a really good team that happened to be one of the worst supporting casts around the star to win the title.

The notion you'd rather have Terry and that crew over what it historically takes to win titles is just absurd. Just admit you didn't think it through.

[ELITEpower23]

KG scored 37 in game 7 vs the Kings in 2004.

No he scored 32 in that game, KG has never scored over 35 points in the playoffs. His playoff career high is 35 in Game 2 vs the Lakers in 2003.

[kawhileonard2]

He used to dominate Lebron in the playoffs as well.

[RRR3]

Nah, KG very much falls in the 50-100 range.

I get that he was a jack of all trades type that had very aesthetically pleasing numbers for advanced stats and all that, but his effectiveness on the game isn't that of other all time greats.

I just wouldn't take him over the 2nd and 3rd tier greats like Barkley, Ewing, CP3, etc.

Guys like Harden, Jokic, Kawhi, Giannis, AD, etc have already come through and shown more. AD being the one exception because he, like Garnett went off and became a second fiddle to achieve something, though at this point, AD is the better player over LeBron.

For as much as he is meme'd and made fun of, Dwight achieved more as a first option compared to Garnett, and did so with a supporting cast on the same level.
Meth.

[ELITEpower23]

Real GM is in love with KG, I think they have him around 12th all time mainly because they value overall skill/talent and not just stats, which is why LeBron is also ranked #1 over there. They look beyond basketball reference and stat sheets like most MJ stains here. "PPGZ" "RANGZ" "STATS"

Holy crap I looked, they have him 11th. That seems high to me but top 25 is solid for him.

[90sgoat]

It would have been very interesting to see KG with a great coach like Phil Jaxx, Pop or George Karl.

I feel like a lot of KG's issues was that he came into the league as an extremely talented, but lanky, teenager and that he got straight up bullied by the power forwards of the 90s, which is why they started him at small forward in his rookie season.

If he had been brought along slower, like Jermain O'Neal, he could have learned some more fundamentals in the back to basket game.

[SomeBitterDude]

KG was "hip hop David Robinson" and you can't tell me different.

[HoopsNY]

He just didn't look to score consistently. When he did, it usually went ok.

Most of the time he took fadeaway midrange shots though. Didn't have any reliable moves to get easy buckets.

Offensively he was actually quite similar to LaMarcus Aldridge, but he would have been better with a faceup game like David West.

KG was notoriously known for falling apart in big games and down the stretch in the 4th quarter. So it didn't always go okay. I did a spread of his playoff games and how he performed in the 4th quarters of big games somewhere here on ISH. It usually didn't go too well.


KG could score just fine in his prime in the play offs. From 2001-02 through his MVP year in 03-04 he averaged 25 ppg, 15 rpg, 5 apg, 1.4 spg, 2 bpg along with all-time great defense that doesn't show up in simple box score lines....and remember this was a time in the league where scoring was supposedly tougher.

He is a victim of Glen Taylor. You switch Tim Duncan with KG and KG would have been the one who won 5 championships with the Spurs (not the same ones obviously) while Duncan would have been ringless in Minnesota.

He still struggled in big moments. And I don't think if you switch Duncan and KG that SA wins 5 titles. KG absolutely does not win in 1999 and 2003. And there aren't any other years outside of the championship years that I think KG would have decisively led that team to the title.

[HoopsNY]

Real GM is in love with KG, I think they have him around 12th all time mainly because they value overall skill/talent and not just stats, which is why LeBron is also ranked #1 over there. They look beyond basketball reference and stat sheets like most MJ stains here. "PPGZ" "RANGZ" "STATS"

Holy crap I looked, they have him 11th. That seems high to me but top 25 is solid for him.

11th is insanity. They must be high on Ben Taylor ranking him 8th (laughable). KG was my favorite player of the 2000s, but he was massively overrated due to disappearing in big games/4th quarters of playoff games. I get he was a great defensive talent, but so were a lot of other guys who also brought clutch play to the table.

[plowking]

Real GM is in love with KG, I think they have him around 12th all time mainly because they value overall skill/talent and not just stats, which is why LeBron is also ranked #1 over there. They look beyond basketball reference and stat sheets like most MJ stains here. "PPGZ" "RANGZ" "STATS"

Holy crap I looked, they have him 11th. That seems high to me but top 25 is solid for him.

Garnett is the only player immune to the playoff performance talk. Every other player gets roasted for shitty performances yet Garnett as the man never really got far at all.

He got out of the first round once at the Wolves. Once. His play clearly dropped too.

If we are going to judge a lot of these guys in the top 25, his playoff resume as the sole leader is undoubtably the worst. Malone, Barkley and Dirk might not have been the two way player he is, but the thing they did well exceeded Garnett being the jack of all trades type.

[Derka]

Analyzing KG as a scorer is the same thing as analyzing Muggsy Bogues as a shot-blocker.

[FireDavidKahn]

Garnett is the only player immune to the playoff performance talk. Every other player gets roasted for shitty performances yet Garnett as the man never really got far at all.

He got out of the first round once at the Wolves. Once. His play clearly dropped too.

If we are going to judge a lot of these guys in the top 25, his playoff resume as the sole leader is undoubtably the worst. Malone, Barkley and Dirk might not have been the two way player he is, but the thing they did well exceeded Garnett being the jack of all trades type.

Another myth.

Garnett's regular season stats from 96/97 - 03/04

21.3 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.8 bpg

Garnett's play off stats from 96/97 - 03/04

22.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.9 bpg

[Nowitness]

Another myth.

Garnett's regular season stats from 96/97 - 03/04

21.3 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.8 bpg

Garnett's play off stats from 96/97 - 03/04

22.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.9 bpg

You're proving most of our points here though. No one is denying he could consistently get you 21-25 a night in the playoffs, but how often could he go above that? If your best player is giving you 1 30+ point playoff game a season, you are not winning with him as your primary offensive threat.

Duncan averaged about the same, but he knew when he needed to drop 35-40. Evidenced by the fact that he has 5x the 30+ point playoff games.

As I said, Cassell in 2004 at 36 had 2 40+ point playoff games with the Wolves, KG never scored more than 35 ever. You can't seriously think because he got you 24 a night he was a great scorer, or capable of being the only elite scorer on a contender?

[HoopsNY]

Another myth.

Garnett's regular season stats from 96/97 - 03/04

21.3 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.8 bpg

Garnett's play off stats from 96/97 - 03/04

22.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.9 bpg

The problem is that numbers like this disregard what he was doing when he was most needed. Take a look at deciding games for KG before 2004, and particularly his production in the 4th quarters.

I included some turnover numbers because KG's assist totals sometimes gets overrated in the grand scheme of things, especially when at times, he was turning the ball over almost as much as he was scoring in the 4th quarter.

1997 Game 3 vs. Houston: 17 points, 7-16 FGs (44%) | 3 points, 1-3 FGs (33%), 1 TO

1998 Game 5 vs. Seattle: 7 points, 3-11 FGs (27%) 10 TOs | 0 points, 0-3 FGs (0%), 1 TO

1999 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 20 points, 6-20 FGs (30%) | 9 points, 3-8 FGs (37%)

2000 Game 4 vs. Portland: 17 points, 5-20 FGs (20%) | 4 points, 1-7 FGs (14%)

2001 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 19 points, 6-13 FGs (46%) | 2 points, 1-2 FGs (50%)

2002 Game 3 vs. Dallas: 22 points, 9-19 FGs (47%) 6 TOs | 3 points, 1-5 FGs (20%)

2003 Game 6 vs Los Angeles: 18 points, 9-21 FGs (42%) 3 TOs | 4 points, 2-5 FGs (40%) 2 TOs

KG as a rookie missed the playoffs, then got bounced in the 1st round 7 seasons in a row where not only did he fail miserably in deciding games and played horribly in 4th quarters, but he found himself being outplayed by teammates like Troy Hudson, Dean Garrett, Anthony Peeler, and Wally Szczerbiak. (Not exactly esteemed company).

Then he misses the playoffs every year until the Celtics formed a super-team with him, Pierce, and Allen. I loved KG as a player, but he just wasn't THAT guy.

[FireDavidKahn]

You're proving most of our points here though. No one is denying he could consistently get you 21-25 a night in the playoffs, but how often could he go above that? If your best player is giving you 1 30+ point playoff game a season, you are not winning with him as your primary offensive threat.

Duncan averaged about the same, but he knew when he needed to drop 35-40. Evidenced by the fact that he has 5x the 30+ point playoff games.

As I said, Cassell in 2004 at 36 had 2 40+ point playoff games with the Wolves, KG never scored more than 35 ever. You can't seriously think because he got you 24 a night he was a great scorer, or capable of being the only elite scorer on a contender?

Plowking said Garnett's "His play clearly dropped too.". I just proved the opposite.

If you are going to argue something at least get your facts straight and not use an argument that is literally the complete opposite of reality. Garnett's play and production INCREASED in the play offs and that fact is indisputable.

If you want to get into another argument about whether it was enough is a completely different matter,.

[Im Still Ballin]

Another myth.

Garnett's regular season stats from 96/97 - 03/04

21.3 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.8 bpg

Garnett's play off stats from 96/97 - 03/04

22.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.9 bpg

You're omitting the TS% (96/97-03/04):

Regular season: 53.6 TS%

Playoffs: 51.1 TS%

Consider that the regular season average for TS% during this period was 52.08 TS%

[FireDavidKahn]

The problem is that numbers like this disregard what he was doing when he was most needed. Take a look at deciding games for KG before 2004, and particularly his production in the 4th quarters.

I included some turnover numbers because KG's assist totals sometimes gets overrated in the grand scheme of things, especially when at times, he was turning the ball over almost as much as he was scoring in the 4th quarter.

1997 Game 3 vs. Houston: 17 points, 7-16 FGs (44%) | 3 points, 1-3 FGs (33%), 1 TO

1998 Game 5 vs. Seattle: 7 points, 3-11 FGs (27%) 10 TOs | 0 points, 0-3 FGs (0%), 1 TO

1999 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 20 points, 6-20 FGs (30%) | 9 points, 3-8 FGs (37%)

2000 Game 4 vs. Portland: 17 points, 5-20 FGs (20%) | 4 points, 1-7 FGs (14%)

2001 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 19 points, 6-13 FGs (46%) | 2 points, 1-2 FGs (50%)

2002 Game 3 vs. Dallas: 22 points, 9-19 FGs (47%) 6 TOs | 3 points, 1-5 FGs (20%)

2003 Game 6 vs Los Angeles: 18 points, 9-21 FGs (42%) 3 TOs | 4 points, 2-5 FGs (40%) 2 TOs

KG as a rookie missed the playoffs, then got bounced in the 1st round 7 seasons in a row where not only did he fail miserably in deciding games and played horribly in 4th quarters, but he found himself being outplayed by teammates like Troy Hudson, Dean Garrett, Anthony Peeler, and Wally Szczerbiak. (Not exactly esteemed company).

Then he misses the playoffs every year until the Celtics formed a super-team with him, Pierce, and Allen. I loved KG as a player, but he just wasn't THAT guy.

You're giving Garnett shit for not making the play offs as a rookie? Good lord.

You want to know the reason why the Wolves didn't beat the Lakers in 03-04? Because Sam Cassell injured himself by doing the Big Balls Dance of his:rolleyes:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f96f20a76116cb0cc70486a9db54ef61/tenor.gif?itemid=12871638

If Cassell never injures himself odds are high that we beat the Lakers that year. But nope, Cassell injuring himself is somehow Garnett's fault.

[HoopsNY]

You're giving Garnett shit for not making the play offs as a rookie? Good lord.

You want to know the reason why the Wolves didn't beat the Lakers in 03-04? Because Sam Cassell injured himself by doing the Big Balls Dance of his:rolleyes:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f96f20a76116cb0cc70486a9db54ef61/tenor.gif?itemid=12871638

If Cassell never injures himself odds are high that we beat the Lakers that year. But nope, Cassell injuring himself is somehow Garnett's fault.

I don't get what you're arguing here. KG between 1996-07 (11 seasons) has one year that was successful (arguably), which was 2004. So you're saying that KG's playoff scoring ability is defined by literally 1 year out of his entire career, let alone 1 year out of 11 where he was, for an overwhelming majority, the go to guy?

You're disregarding every other year and cherry picking his 2004 season to define success for playoff performances? The years I posted did not include his rookie season. They were 7 straight years of him failing miserably in crucial moments.

And this isn't something foreign or some newfangled argument. This was a constant criticism of KG, that he couldn't takeover games or step up when needed to. I mean, why in the world should the T-Wolves rely on Dean Garrett, Anthony Peeler, Terrell Brandon, or Troy Hudson for crying out loud?

[MadDog]

He's popular with the analytics/stat nerd crowd. His advanced statistics are quite impressive; but so were Andrei Kirilenko's, Russell Westbrook's, and Scottie Pippen's.

Right, which is why EYE TEST is the de facto measure. And being able to VISIBLY dominate on offense is the most IMPORTANT aspect of basketball. Not saying defense isn't close, but in the end someone has to score. The adage that better offense > defense is absolutely true. I also like advanced stats, but people gotta know how to employ them. Too many here argue that better advanced numbers equals the better player. That ignores who you play for and what your role is.

[Im Still Ballin]

You're omitting the TS% (96/97-03/04):

Regular season: 53.6 TS%

Playoffs: 51.1 TS%

Consider that the regular season average for TS% during this period was 52.08 TS%

Expanding on this:

Tim Duncan (97/98-03/04):

Regular season: 55.6 TS%

Playoffs: 56.1 TS%

Dirk Nowitzki (98/99-03/04):

Regular season: 57.7 TS%

Playoffs (00/01-03/04): 58.0 TS%

[Nowitness]

Plowking said Garnett's "His play clearly dropped too.". I just proved the opposite.

If you are going to argue something at least get your facts straight and not use an argument that is literally the complete opposite of reality. Garnett's play and production INCREASED in the play offs and that fact is indisputable.

If you want to get into another argument about whether it was enough is a completely different matter,.

I get you. My point iN making the thread is exactly that argument tho. Not really that his offensive output dipped or didn't get better come playoff time, just regardless of which it was it wasn't capable of leading you to a title.

Never dropping more than 35 in a playoff game, having a 36 Y/O drop 2 40+ point playoff games in your only successful Minnesota playoff run and coming up short in most big games and fourth quarters to me is more than enough evidence.

Had he played with a T-Mac/Kobe, where he could control the defense and score 24 a game he'd have won more. But trying to be Duncan, where you're the clear cut best defender and offensive player never could and never did work for Ticket.

[HoopsNY]

I get you. My point iN making the thread is exactly that argument tho. Not really that his offensive output dipped or didn't get better come playoff time, just regardless of which it was it wasn't capable of leading you to a title.

Never dropping more than 35 in a playoff game, having a 36 Y/O drop 2 40+ point playoff games in your only successful Minnesota playoff run and coming up short in most big games and fourth quarters to me is more than enough evidence.

Had he played with a T-Mac/Kobe, where he could control the defense and score 24 a game he'd have won more. But trying to be Duncan, where you're the clear cut best defender and offensive player never could and never did work for Ticket.

The fact that KG consistently passed up shots and defaulted to guys like Peeler, Brandon, Garrett, Szczerbiak, or Hudson is enough to tell you that he was a poor man's Tim Duncan.

I remember consistently shouting at the TV screen "shoot the damn ball KG!" in the 4th quarter of games where he just clearly didn't have that it factor.