View Full Version : HISTORICAL RECORD: Lebron needed the most offensive help in history, yet..
3ba11
08-09-2021, 12:20 PM
.
* his teams were never viewed as having the best offense or being the "smart team" that plays the best way like the Spurs, Warriors, or Mavs
* he never had a #1 offense in 2 decades of playing
* his offenses were routinely outscored by less talented offenses and underdogs (09', 11', 14')
Ultimately, everything about Lebron's career is completely manufactured, including his offenses, jumpshooting efficiency (only takes open jumpers), resume (formed super-team when no one else had one) and tough childhood (infact coddled from 10 years old onwards and given Hummers).. It's called fraud folks
And1AllDay
08-09-2021, 12:30 PM
2016
7631
1-9
12
3ba11
08-09-2021, 12:34 PM
.
Only Lebron is on the list with multiple teams - 7 years of goat offensive help is the most help anyone ever had:
https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-29-2021/J3KiZV.gif
Manny98
08-09-2021, 12:38 PM
The same way MJ had the most defensive help ever
Rodman
Pippen
Grant
Harper
Top defense without him in 94
And1AllDay
08-09-2021, 12:44 PM
2016 =goat ring
7631 = most po pts ever, bran #1
1-9 = mikes biggest fail, removed from goat possibility
12 = most po game winners, bran #1
issa wrap now? :oldlol:
HylianNightmare
08-09-2021, 01:39 PM
.
* his teams were never viewed as having the best offense or being the "smart team" that plays the best way like the Spurs, Warriors, or Mavs
* he never had a #1 offense in 2 decades of playing
* his offenses were routinely outscored by less talented offenses and underdogs (09', 11', 14')
Ultimately, everything about Lebron's career is completely manufactured, including his offenses, jumpshooting efficiency (only takes open jumpers), resume (formed super-team when no one else had one) and tough childhood (infact coddled from 10 years old onwards and given Hummers).. It's called fraud folks
The real ones know levron just isn't that good
8Ball
08-09-2021, 01:42 PM
2016
7631
1-9
12
Explain these numbers to the general public please.
Very intriguing.
Especially 1-9.
Spurs m8
08-09-2021, 03:50 PM
Like, there's no come back to this, it's just straight up facts
Smoke117
08-09-2021, 03:53 PM
1-9
And1AllDay
08-09-2021, 03:55 PM
Explain these numbers to the general public please.
Very intriguing.
Especially 1-9.
sure thing my guy
2016 = the goat ring
7631 =the most po pts ever, bran #1
1-9 =the biggest fail, mike is removed from goat possibility with theee 1st rd sweeps pre pippen
12 =the most po game winners, bran #1
8Ball
08-09-2021, 03:56 PM
sure thing my guy
2016 = the goat ring
7631 =the most po pts ever, bran #1
1-9 =the biggest fail, moke is removed from goat possibility with theee 1st rd sweeps pre pippen
12 =the most po game winners, bran #1
Like, there's no come back to this, it's just straight up facts
And1AllDay
08-09-2021, 04:18 PM
Like, there's no come back to this, it's just straight up facts
yup! we just need fax on our side :cheers: they can create the fairy tales
The real ones know levron just isn't that good
https://i.ibb.co/f9Bxvhv/90-E8-D9-BC-F30-F-47-E2-812-C-0-D582-FEF3-F44.jpg
:yaohappy:
3ba11
08-09-2021, 05:12 PM
It's a serious question:
if Lebron is such a great and smart offensive player, why did he need so much offensive help?
Why were his teams never considered smart teams like the Spurs, Warriors, or Mavs, and were never viewed as juggernaut or #1 offenses?
Why can't his teams get hot against the best teams and go off? (no ball movement = less open shots)..
How come it's always the opponent that gets hot? (ball movement = more open shots)... Why does the opponent always have the superior offense on the biggest stages?
"Giannis proved me wrong..."
What a dumb thread. :confusedshrug:
SaintzFury13
08-09-2021, 06:26 PM
It's a serious question:
I'm going to pretend you are for once being serious here, and give you the time of day.
if Lebron is such a great and smart offensive player, why did he need so much offensive help?
He didn't. In reality all he ever really needed was one legitimate offensive all star player who could get him 15-20 PPG consistently and reliably on somewhat decent field goal percentage.
He had that in 2011. And he failed to live up to his end of the deal. That's his own undoing and why he'll never be the greatest player of all time.
Why were his teams never considered smart teams like the Spurs, Warriors, or Mavs, and were never viewed as juggernaut or #1 offenses?
The 2013 Miami Heat were absolutely considered a juggernaut, and they are a legitimate top ten all time great team. The 2009 Cavaliers were considered juggernauts and unstoppable at home, only having lost legitimately one time in Cleveland (can't count the second loss since the starters didn't play that night) before they ran into the Magic who they had legitimate match up issues against. And the 2017 Cavaliers are considered one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NBA. For someone who claims to be all about facts, you sure are spouting some major bullshit right now.
Why can't his teams get hot against the best teams and go off? (no ball movement = less open shots)..
How come it's always the opponent that gets hot? (ball movement = more open shots)... Why does the opponent always have the superior offense on the biggest stages?
How many games involving LeBron have you actually watched before? Is the number even in the double digits? Do you have a single idea as to how great offensively the Cavaliers were during his second run with them excluding 2018? Let me give you some samples since you seem to have never watched any basketball before 2019.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7co10-d0k Cavs shoot a perfect 9/9 from three in the first quarter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prOVG2ATEsA Cavs break the NBA Finals record for most threes made, against the Golden State Warriors WITH Kevin Durant. Yes, that team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA2e7Pbjhcs Kevin Love scores 34 points in the first quarter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKe1CqM5vwA Cavs break playoff record for most three pointers made with 25.
Oh and if that wasn't enough, they did it AGAIN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-wQ2VMxZA
You sit here and talk about LeBron James teams having no ball movement. The Cavaliers during his second stint with him were based heavily around ball movement. Do not sit here and claim to be about facts. You are literally making shit up to fit your anti-LeBron narrative.
8Ball
08-09-2021, 08:46 PM
SaintzFury13
You are new here. But 3ball has created over 1000 threads (true facts from moderators here) about anti-LeBron topics. He just copy pastes his replies from a spreadsheet.
Does this across multiple forums. It's his 10th account here from prior multiple bans.
He isn't taken here seriously. He is more like the forum retard.
And1AllDay
08-09-2021, 08:49 PM
SaintzFury13
You are new here. But 3ball has created over 1000 threads (true facts from moderators here) about anti-LeBron topics. He just copy pastes his replies from a spreadsheet.
Does this across multiple forums. It's his 10th account here from prior multiple bans.
He isn't taken here seriously. He is more like the forum retard.
+1
saintz is a new poster and i commend his effort of wrestling the troll that is 3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
sdot_thadon
08-09-2021, 09:05 PM
I'm going to pretend you are for once being serious here, and give you the time of day.
He didn't. In reality all he ever really needed was one legitimate offensive all star player who could get him 15-20 PPG consistently and reliably on somewhat decent field goal percentage.
He had that in 2011. And he failed to live up to his end of the deal. That's his own undoing and why he'll never be the greatest player of all time.
The 2013 Miami Heat were absolutely considered a juggernaut, and they are a legitimate top ten all time great team. The 2009 Cavaliers were considered juggernauts and unstoppable at home, only having lost legitimately one time in Cleveland (can't count the second loss since the starters didn't play that night) before they ran into the Magic who they had legitimate match up issues against. And the 2017 Cavaliers are considered one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NBA. For someone who claims to be all about facts, you sure are spouting some major bullshit right now.
How many games involving LeBron have you actually watched before? Is the number even in the double digits? Do you have a single idea as to how great offensively the Cavaliers were during his second run with them excluding 2018? Let me give you some samples since you seem to have never watched any basketball before 2019.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7co10-d0k Cavs shoot a perfect 9/9 from three in the first quarter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prOVG2ATEsA Cavs break the NBA Finals record for most threes made, against the Golden State Warriors WITH Kevin Durant. Yes, that team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA2e7Pbjhcs Kevin Love scores 34 points in the first quarter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKe1CqM5vwA Cavs break playoff record for most three pointers made with 25.
Oh and if that wasn't enough, they did it AGAIN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-wQ2VMxZA
You sit here and talk about LeBron James teams having no ball movement. The Cavaliers during his second stint with him were based heavily around ball movement. Do not sit here and claim to be about facts. You are literally making shit up to fit your anti-LeBron narrative.
Pimp slapped, with a light coat of baby powder.
3ba11
08-09-2021, 09:39 PM
He didn't. In reality all he ever really needed was one legitimate offensive all star player who could get him 15-20 PPG consistently and reliably on somewhat decent field goal percentage.
^^^ Nonsense and lies..
Lebron needed star scorers at 2nd and 3rd option, or he needed a teammate to out-produce him (AD) - he never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer.
He had that in 2011. And he failed to live up to his end of the deal. That's his own undoing and why he'll never be the greatest player of all time.
It wasn't just 2011...
AD led the league in playoff scoring in 2020, while Kyrie matched Lebron's scoring in the 2016 Playoffs.... and Wade led Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs..
So scoring-wise, Lebron needs a 1b sidekick to win - Lebron never averaged more than 5 points above his sidekick in the Finals so he can't carry the scoring load like Jordan... It's night and day.
The 2013 Miami Heat were absolutely considered a juggernaut, and they are a legitimate top ten all time great team.
They won by luck and were beaten by record amount the following year - a top 10 all-time team can't fall to a worst-ever team in 2014 - so they obviously weren't a top 10 all-time team in 13'
The 2009 Cavaliers were considered juggernauts and unstoppable at home, only having lost legitimately one time in Cleveland (can't count the second loss since the starters didn't play that night) before they ran into the Magic who they had legitimate match up issues against. And the 2017 Cavaliers are considered one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NBA. For someone who claims to be all about facts, you sure are spouting some major bullshit right now.
Stop listening to the crap you hear on cable TV.
What were the matchup issues against the 09' Magic? The only matchup issue was Lebron guarding Courtney Lee instead of Hedo or Lewis - if Lebron defends the forwards like he's supposed to, the Cavs wouldn't have matchup issues.. Infact, they were known for their great defense - their defense took the 08' Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed (Lebron is the only 1st option in history that shot 35% in a series, and he did it twice).
So you're making shit up... Heck, the 17' Cavs ranked 3rd in the NBA offensively and weren't anywhere near one of the best offenses ever based on ORTG and their margin above league-average ORTG... ultimately, lebron fields low-assist teams that get blown away in the Finals.
So you're just lying - their offense was blown away in the Finals because the Warriors were moving the ball for open shots, while the Cavs were going your-turn-my-turn - that's the story of Lebron's career - in the critical series, opponents have better offenses and blow Lebron-ball away - see the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, or 17' Finals..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7co10-d0k Cavs shoot a perfect 9/9 from three in the first quarter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prOVG2ATEsA Cavs break the NBA Finals record for most threes made, against the Golden State Warriors WITH Kevin Durant. Yes, that team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA2e7Pbjhcs Kevin Love scores 34 points in the first quarter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKe1CqM5vwA Cavs break playoff record for most three pointers made with 25.
Oh and if that wasn't enough, they did it AGAIN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-wQ2VMxZA
^^^ I'm glad you brought up Game 4 of the 2017 Finals - that's the game that Kyrie dropped 40 and won the game by himself - true superstars can win a game by themselves regardless of opponent, so it's a good thing the Cavs had Kyrie or they get swept by record amount (like they did in 2018 without Kyrie).
Ultimately, where are Lebron's #1 offenses? not 1 in 20 years?... lol... fake goat... a complete fraud that manufactured his resume with super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd) - that's the definition of manufacturing a resume..
You sit here and talk about LeBron James teams having no ball movement. The Cavaliers during his second stint with him were based heavily around ball movement. Do not sit here and claim to be about facts. You are literally making shit up to fit your anti-LeBron narrative.
The stats prove the story - Lebron fields low assist teams that get massively out-assisted in his Finals losses... So you're the one ignoring the truth and facts... I only post facts, stats and historical record... Lebron-ball has never been a #1 offense despite goat offensive help, in part because he fields low-assist teams that don't move the ball and get destroyed on the championship level.
SaintzFury13
08-10-2021, 08:11 PM
^^^ Nonsense and lies..
Lebron needed star scorers at 2nd and 3rd option, or he needed a teammate to out-produce him (AD) - he never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer.
Your original question was why did LeBron need so much help to win a title. He clearly didn't need that in 2020 when he won a title with a guy who didn't even outproduce LeBron (LeBron averaged more points, more assists and more rebounds than Davis did in that very finals series. Enough with the out produced him nonsense).
It wasn't just 2011...
AD led the league in playoff scoring in 2020, while Kyrie matched Lebron's scoring in the 2016 Playoffs.... and Wade led Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs..
First off, you can't just say "it wasn't just 2011" and then proceed to name 2011 as an example. We all know how terrible LeBron played in 2011. There's a reason I mentioned it in the first place.
Second, what AD did before the finals is irrelevant. After all that's all you guys care about in the end, the finals, right? Unless it's in a situation where LeBron lost before even getting to the finals, it's all about the NBA Finals. It's all about what you do when you get there. And guess what? When LeBron got there, he still managed to out produce AD, including getting more rebounds than him, despite AD being the PF going up against a much smaller Miami Heat team while LeBron had to deal with Jimmy Butler as well as a multitude of other lengthy and versatile defenders at the forward position. If you want to sit here and rag on LeBron for the fact that Wade outproduced him in the 2011 Finals despite LeBron basically carrying them through the playoffs in the first place, then don't expect me to take your argument regarding 2020 seriously. It's straw grasping and you know it.
And Kyrie matched LeBron's scoring? Who was the one with two straight 41 point games in the NBA Finals? Oh right, that was LeBron. Who was the one who led his team in scoring in the NBA Finals? Oh right, that was LeBron. Who had their best games in situations where his team won? Oh right, that was LeBron. Irving's best games apart from his game 5 performance were in meaningless games where it was clear they had no chance to win. It's a well known fact that before game 5, he was more of a hinderance to Cleveland than an asset. He got lit up by Shaun Livingston in game 1 and shot Cleveland out of the game and all but disappeared in games 2 and 4. Don't try to sit here and pretend that Kyrie somehow was better than LeBron in the 2016 finals. He wasn't.
And yes, I know you said 2016 playoffs, not finals. I'm saying finals because to even bring up the rest of the playoffs before it got to that series is idiotic. No team in the East had a realistic chance of beating Cleveland. JR Smith could have been Cleveland's top scorer in those previous series, the Cavaliers were still going back to the finals that season.
So scoring-wise, Lebron needs a 1b sidekick to win - Lebron never averaged more than 5 points above his sidekick in the Finals so he can't carry the scoring load like Jordan... It's night and day.
First off, this is factually incorrect.
In 2013, Lebron averaged 25.3 points for the entire finals series against San Antonio. His second leading scorer in that series, Dwayne Wade, averaged 19.6.
Now I know you are a legit dumb****, but I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can do basic math. But in case you can't, the difference between 25.3 and 19.6 is more than 5.
Stop being a retard. If you want to be all about facts, then stop posting shit that is literally incorrect even by math standards.
Edit: I decided just for curiosity's sake to look up the 2012 Finals. I actually thought the point differential between LeBron and Wade was less than 5 here, but no. LeBron averaged 28.6 PPG, while Wade averaged 22.6. He literally averaged SIX MORE POINTS than Wade did.
In other words, that's TWICE that you were wrong. TWICE. Holy shit. You would think that with LeBron having only four title wins (because according to you, that's not a very high number) that you wouldn't somehow manage to **** up something so simple, but jesus. You somehow manage to outdo yourself again. Congrats.
Second, Michael Jordan wouldn't have been able to carry the scoring load under the exact same circumstances. LeBron's teams were not constructed the same way his were. Jordan's team had a far greater emphasis on team defense and running the offense through him. Of course LeBron isn't going to be the only one scoring at a high rate on his team. Jordan on the other hand was. But since we're going to go that logic...
1991: Jordan needed Pippen to guard Magic and Worthy to get hurt.
1992: You won't hear me shit talk this one.
1993: Jordan needed Pippen to guard Barkley.
1996: Jordan needed Rodman to outrebound the entire Sonics team because Jordan was getting his shit stomped by Gary Payton, to the point where you can argue that Rodman should have won Finals MVP that year.
1997: Jordan needed Rodman to guard Malone.
1998: I honestly don't know with this one. I still to this day am baffled that the Bulls won this series to be honest. But again, this is why Jordan is the GOAT.
You want to sit here and act like Jordan did everything himself. That's a load of bullshit and you know it. Jordan needed his teammates help just as badly as LeBron did, and unlike Jordan, there is no argument as to whether or not LeBron deserved any of his finals MVP awards.
They won by luck and were beaten by record amount the following year - a top 10 all-time team can't fall to a worst-ever team in 2014 - so they obviously weren't a top 10 all-time team in 13
They weren't a worst ever team...they just got worse, while the Spurs got better, and it showed in how they played compared to the previous season. It's really not that hard to comprehend.
Also, they won 27 straight games that season and had a 66 win season. They're a top ten all time great team. Stop being a retard.
Stop listening to the crap you hear on cable TV.
I legit have not watched cable TV since I was in college. You're going to have to come up with something better than that.
What were the matchup issues against the 09' Magic? The only matchup issue was Lebron guarding Courtney Lee instead of Hedo or Lewis - if Lebron defends the forwards like he's supposed to, the Cavs wouldn't have matchup issues.. Infact, they were known for their great defense - their defense took the 08' Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed (Lebron is the only 1st option in history that shot 35% in a series, and he did it twice).
You really need me to explain what the match up issues were?
For starters, no one on the Cavaliers could contain Dwight Howard. The Cavaliers had to constantly double team him which led to the other players, which were mostly comprised of elite shooters, being open at the perimeter. Mo Williams and Delonte West were two very short guards compared to the Magic who had three players on the floor who were above 6'7, and this isn't even including Dwight. LeBron guarding Hedo or Lewis wouldn't have made a difference. That still would have left Courtney Lee open at the perimeter. And while we're on that subject, what the **** are you even talking about? Courtney Lee? That isn't even the guy LeBron spent most of that series guarding. His main defensive assignment was Ralfer Alston, because Mo Williams was such a massive defensive liability that he couldn't even handle the simple task of guarding Orlando's back up point guard. And guarding Alston at least prevented Orlando from being able to run their offense properly. They had to rely more on Hedo to run it. The problem was, that meant that guys like Delonte had to guard him, which didn't work out well.
SaintzFury13
08-10-2021, 08:11 PM
So you're making shit up... Heck, the 17' Cavs ranked 3rd in the NBA offensively and weren't anywhere near one of the best offenses ever based on ORTG and their margin above league-average ORTG... ultimately, lebron fields low-assist teams that get blown away in the Finals.
Again, this is just further proof that you didn't even watch basketball at the time and are just going off of stats, which is something I knew you'd be stupid enough to do. The first half of the 2017 campaign was a disaster for Cleveland on both ends of the floor due to personal from previous season being gone and a variety of injury issues. It wasn't until they acquired Kyle Korver, Deron Williams and Derrick Williams and everyone got healthy that they became an all time great offensive team. Oh and by the way, their ORTG in the playoffs that season? 120, which is historically great and even higher than what the Warriors had that season. So yes, they were a historically great offensive team. Stop being a moron.
So you're just lying - their offense was blown away in the Finals because the Warriors were moving the ball for open shots, while the Cavs were going your-turn-my-turn
Blown away? Every single game apart from game 1 they scored 113 or more. In what way is that blown away?
Golden State ultimately won because the Cavaliers were still, at the end of the day, a terrible defensive team. Golden State wasn't.
- that's the story of Lebron's career - in the critical series, opponents have better offenses and blow Lebron-ball away - see the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, or 17' Finals..
??
You gave me four series and only one where that actually happened: the 2011 NBA Finals.
That didn't happen in 2009. LeBron was extremely affective and the Cavaliers had little to no problem executing their offense. The problem was that they had loads of trouble containing the Magic because, you know, match up problems.
That didn't happen in 2014. The Spurs elite offense completely shattered the Miami Heat's defense.
That didn't happen in 2017. The Cavaliers had no problem getting their buckets apart from game 1. They just struggled to contain the Warriors because they were a terrible defensive team.
^^^ I'm glad you brought up Game 4 of the 2017 Finals - that's the game that Kyrie dropped 40 and won the game by himself - true superstars can win a game by themselves regardless of opponent, so it's a good thing the Cavs had Kyrie or they get swept by record amount (like they did in 2018 without Kyrie).
Won the game by himself?
LeBron had a triple double and scored 31 points.
Kevin Love had 23 points and six three pointers.
JR Smith had 15 points and five three pointers.
Don't give me the "by himself" nonsense. You take away the third best scorers points for that game and they don't even win mathematically. That disqualifies the "by himself" notion.
Ultimately, where are Lebron's #1 offenses? not 1 in 20 years?... lol... fake goat... a complete fraud that manufactured his resume with super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd) - that's the definition of manufacturing a resume..
Huh??
Dwight Howard had two all star teammates that season. Even if Nelson didn't play in the playoffs that year, he still had Lewis who was definitely an all star. Jason Kidd had Mutambo who was an all star in the first season that he went to the finals. And Iverson had Mutambo who was ALSO the DPOY AND a guy who was the sixth man of the year.
And guess what? LeBron? That guy you just criticized for failing to win in a conference without a super team or star teammate? You are still incorrect, because guess what? HE DID WIN IN THAT CONFERENCE WITHOUT ONE. 2007, without a single all star teammate to name, won the Eastern Conference and went to the NBA Finals.
It is truly astonishing how bad you are at this.
The stats prove the story - Lebron fields low assist teams that get massively out-assisted in his Finals losses... So you're the one ignoring the truth and facts... I only post facts
You've literally posted three factually incorrect statements now in this very post.
Lebron-ball has never been a #1 offense despite goat offensive help, in part because he fields low-assist teams that don't move the ball and get destroyed on the championship level.
And once again, yes he was, literally every single time he won a championship, he was the number one option.
Stop trying to pass off obvious bullshit as fact. It may work on retards like Spurs m8 but it's not going to work on me.
And yes guys, I know he's very clearly a troll. But this is actually a lot more fun than I was expecting.
There's no use arguing with a deadbeat lunatic in this board, no matter how hard you try. Composing tons of essays for the rebuttals doesn't change that fact. Many have tried before but they barely did anything about it.
3ba11
08-10-2021, 08:49 PM
* Cut the crap Saintz - Lebron had teammates match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20'), while Jordan led Pippen in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg.. it's night and day.. So Lebron needed far more help that Jordan, including a 3rd scorer or a teammate to out-produce him - AD led in scoring for the 2020 regular season and playoffs.. Infact, he led the whole LEAGUE in playoff scoring and was the MVP of the real Finals vs Denver - it was AD-ball vs Denver, while Lebron-ball was reserved for weak teams like the Heat.. Ultimately, Lebron never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer because AD led the Lakers all year in scoring and win shares (regular season and playoffs).
* Lebron lost with Mo averaging 18 on 38% because Lebron has never beaten a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he has zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing.. Otoh, Jordan has five series where he beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from Pippen (89' 1st Round, 96' Finals, 97' ECF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals).. That's 5 carry-jobs against good teams to Lebron's zero.
* Lebron and 2 fringe all-stars (Mo, Zydrunas) and lost to Dwight and his 1 fringe all-star (Lewis).... And Orlando had more problems stopping Lebron in 2009, then the Cavs had stopping Dwight - so Dwight wasn't the issue - it was the Magic's overall offense that got humming because Lebron was guarding Courtney Lee instead of Lewis and/or Hedo.. Ultimately, the Magic were one of the biggest underdogs to ever win a series (source here (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/19/21374534/biggest-playoff-upsets-nba-history)).. Stan Van Gundy said "we wanted Lebron to dribble and get stats" (here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?466601-SVG-We-let-Lebron-play-1on1-in-the-09-series-we-were-fine-giving-him-points-stats)).. Ultimately, Lebron can't win with high-scoring because it's too ball-dominant, so it reduces teammates to spot-up roles more than his normal scoring levels, and it's a weaker brand more than his normal scoring levels.. If Lebron could get points while the ball moved (off-ball, elite jumpshooting skill), then his teams would play better brand of ball and win more.. Unfortuantely, Lebron's shit brand loses to 1-star teams with 1 seeds and super-teams (09', 11')..
* And why would you say it's false that Lebron fields low assist teams that get massively out-assisted in his Finals losses?? That's 100% true.. He fields low assist teams that get beat by better-passing teams.. And it's his fault - he starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time).. So teammates have less hold-time and assists in Lebron's 2 point guard lineups then they get in traditional 1-PG lineups, which results in low TEAM assists and shalackings on the Finals level.
* Btw, team ORTG for a playoff run is opponent-dependant - that's why regular season ORTG's (against the same competition) are used to determine offensive effectiveness.. Any team will have great ortg's in a non-defensive series, while other teams will have low ORTG's if the series is a knock em', drag-out series.. So theres' wild fluctuations when you look at playoff series or playoff runs.. Ultimately, Lebron's teams aren't the ones getting hot on the Finals level because they aren't moving the ball and getting open shots like their opponent - the team assist stats tell the story.
Sportal
08-10-2021, 08:55 PM
"Projected"... lol
Literally every single person knows that Warriors team with the UNANIMOUS MVP, Klay and Kevin Durant is the most absolutely ridiculous team of all-time. And these latest Nets have more... Take your meds, 3iq.
StrongLurk
08-10-2021, 08:57 PM
Historical record - OP is a massive troll who doesn't even have Lebron, Magic, or Bill Russell in his top ten all time players.
This Saintz guy seems new and doesn't realize how much time he just wasted...OP lives only in OP's world, not the actual world.
3ba11
08-10-2021, 08:59 PM
"Projected"... lol
Literally every single person knows that Warriors team with the UNANIMOUS MVP, Klay and Kevin Durant is the most absolutely ridiculous team of all-time. And these latest Nets have more... Take your meds, 3iq.
Lebron had the only teams with 3 perennial all-stars (super-teams) from 2011-2016 - these super-teams were so unfair, that KD had to team up with Curry/Klay to supercede him and stop the cheating
Yet KD's colluded rings don't count, but Lebron's somehow do... it's ridiculous... Both guys are frauds that only learned to team-hop - they never learned to WIN (organic).
Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, but fell to underdog or loser every year in the Finals, except the Ray Allen miracle.. That's a blatant stacking of the deck... And his "Finals streak" in the East was manufactured by forming super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.. So you support a complete fraud but don't know it - the biggest fraud and manufactured resume in sports history.
Sportal
08-10-2021, 09:08 PM
Lebron had the only teams with 3 perennial all-stars (super-teams) from 2011-2016 - these super-teams were so unfair, that KD had to team up with Curry/Klay to supercede him and stop the cheating
Yet KD's colluded rings don't count, but Lebron's somehow do... it's ridiculous... Both guys are frauds that only learned to team-hop - they never learned to WIN (organic).
Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, but fell to underdog or loser every year in the Finals, except the Ray Allen miracle.. That's a blatant stacking of the deck... And his "Finals streak" in the East was manufactured by forming super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.. So you support a complete fraud but don't know it - the biggest fraud and manufactured resume in sports history.
So you just shit on your own thread... Well done. So it's not "in history", it's between a very particular bunch of years. You're a ****ing loser, lmao.
3ba11
08-10-2021, 09:11 PM
So you just shit on your own thread... Well done. So it's not "in history", it's between a very particular bunch of years. You're a ****ing loser, lmao.
The offensive help that Lebron had from 2011-2017, and also 2020-2021 is the most in history - no one had as many offense-carrying teammates (#1 options playing 2nd and 3rd option) as he had during those years.. He had more offensive help than KD's Warriors, but the Warriors just played a much better brand of ball that utilized everyone to capacity.. Klay was averaging 20 ppg, while Love averaged almost nothing
Manny98
08-10-2021, 09:41 PM
As 3ball mentioned I find it very interesting how Klays stats remain unchanged with the addition of KD whilst Love and Boshs stats go down massively next to LeBron
8Ball
08-10-2021, 09:46 PM
Again, this is just further proof that you didn't even watch basketball at the time and are just going off of stats, which is something I knew you'd be stupid enough to do. The first half of the 2017 campaign was a disaster for Cleveland on both ends of the floor due to personal from previous season being gone and a variety of injury issues. It wasn't until they acquired Kyle Korver, Deron Williams and Derrick Williams and everyone got healthy that they became an all time great offensive team. Oh and by the way, their ORTG in the playoffs that season? 120, which is historically great and even higher than what the Warriors had that season. So yes, they were a historically great offensive team. Stop being a moron.
Blown away? Every single game apart from game 1 they scored 113 or more. In what way is that blown away?
Golden State ultimately won because the Cavaliers were still, at the end of the day, a terrible defensive team. Golden State wasn't.
??
You gave me four series and only one where that actually happened: the 2011 NBA Finals.
That didn't happen in 2009. LeBron was extremely affective and the Cavaliers had little to no problem executing their offense. The problem was that they had loads of trouble containing the Magic because, you know, match up problems.
That didn't happen in 2014. The Spurs elite offense completely shattered the Miami Heat's defense.
That didn't happen in 2017. The Cavaliers had no problem getting their buckets apart from game 1. They just struggled to contain the Warriors because they were a terrible defensive team.
Won the game by himself?
LeBron had a triple double and scored 31 points.
Kevin Love had 23 points and six three pointers.
JR Smith had 15 points and five three pointers.
Don't give me the "by himself" nonsense. You take away the third best scorers points for that game and they don't even win mathematically. That disqualifies the "by himself" notion.
Huh??
Dwight Howard had two all star teammates that season. Even if Nelson didn't play in the playoffs that year, he still had Lewis who was definitely an all star. Jason Kidd had Mutambo who was an all star in the first season that he went to the finals. And Iverson had Mutambo who was ALSO the DPOY AND a guy who was the sixth man of the year.
And guess what? LeBron? That guy you just criticized for failing to win in a conference without a super team or star teammate? You are still incorrect, because guess what? HE DID WIN IN THAT CONFERENCE WITHOUT ONE. 2007, without a single all star teammate to name, won the Eastern Conference and went to the NBA Finals.
It is truly astonishing how bad you are at this.
You've literally posted three factually incorrect statements now in this very post.
And once again, yes he was, literally every single time he won a championship, he was the number one option.
Stop trying to pass off obvious bullshit as fact. It may work on retards like Spurs m8 but it's not going to work on me.
And yes guys, I know he's very clearly a troll. But this is actually a lot more fun than I was expecting.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2XhfQ8oCkm1Ts4/giphy.gif
8Ball
08-10-2021, 09:48 PM
As 3ball mentioned I find it very interesting how Klays stats remain unchanged with the addition of KD whilst Love and Boshs stats go down massively next to LeBron
https://i.ibb.co/k9Kd86w/Screen-Shot-2021-08-09-at-8-56-56-PM.png
SATAN
08-10-2021, 10:39 PM
Michael Jordan worshipped his father. The father who used to rape MJ's sister. :wtf:
SATAN
08-10-2021, 10:40 PM
Oops wrong thread :milton
OP you created thread after thread
meanwhile lebron won ring after ring
you're clearly the loser in this equation. I wonder what your quality of life is like. :oldlol:
As 3ball mentioned I find it very interesting how Klays stats remain unchanged with the addition of KD whilst Love and Boshs stats go down massively next to LeBron
Intriguing.
you're just salty because you keep taking Ls - can you imagine if lebron played the offensively challenged competition of the 90's relative to what we have today? :oldlol:
SATAN
08-10-2021, 10:50 PM
OP you created thread after thread
meanwhile lebron won ring after ring
you're clearly the loser in this equation. I wonder what your quality of life is like. :oldlol:
https://www.thebigsmoke.com.au/wp-content/uploads/s-e1097de29c093af30b01ec7ffbf8f679a8a4e5d7.jpg
https://www.thebigsmoke.com.au/wp-content/uploads/s-e1097de29c093af30b01ec7ffbf8f679a8a4e5d7.jpg
his trolling isnt even funny. its legit mentally ill. repeating the same things over and over.
at least when we were trolling fanboys we were trying to be funny....
3ba11
08-10-2021, 11:51 PM
you're just salty because you keep taking Ls - can you imagine if lebron played the offensively challenged competition of the 90's relative to what we have today? :oldlol:
Lebron played with 6 guys that averaged 25+ as first option - no one else in history played with that many top tier scorers - Lebron needs guys that average 25-30 so he can reduce them to 15-20 or less
3ba11
08-10-2021, 11:53 PM
As 3ball mentioned I find it very interesting how Klays stats remain unchanged with the addition of KD whilst Love and Boshs stats go down massively next to LeBron
3rd options like Klay Thompson, Jrue Holiday, Worthy, Ray Allen, or Harden still average 20+ or are dominant when needed, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to rubble
3rd options like Klay Thompson, Jrue Holiday, Worthy, Ray Allen, or Harden still average 20+ or are dominant when needed, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to rubble
Then what more about oubre who you said was much better than klay last season.
3ba11
08-10-2021, 11:58 PM
Then what more about oubre who you said was much better than klay last season.
don't be immature and bring up something unrelated.. if you can't refute the point being made, then either concede or don't respond.. or at least be funny like Fkari.. :rolleyes:
3ba11
08-11-2021, 12:02 AM
don't be immature and bring up something unrelated.. if you can't refute the point being made, then either concede or don't respond.. or at least be funny like Fkari.. :rolleyes:
oh wait.. i get it... your weak deflection IS a concession... like 1-9 or something.. carry on.. the more you know...
don't be immature and bring up something unrelated.. if you can't refute the point being made, then either concede or don't respond.. or at least be funny like Fkari.. :rolleyes:
I mean you did make a thread about the said prediction. Don't deflect now.
3ba11
08-11-2021, 12:13 AM
I mean you did make a thread about the said prediction. Don't deflect now.
so you can't respond to the point about Lebron's goat offensive help but inferior offenses?... and shalackings by opponents with less offensive help? (but better brand of ball)...
got it.. you can't respond... moving on..
Lebron's brand of ball sucks - he isn't a smart player at all and doesn't know how to play.. he's just an athlete
so you can't respond to the point about Lebron's goat offensive help but inferior offenses?... and shalackings by opponents with less offensive help? (but better brand of ball)...
got it.. you can't respond... moving on..
Lebron's brand of ball sucks - he isn't a smart player at all and doesn't know how to play.. he's just an athlete
Don't have to when you don't have the urge to listen or agree anyway.
3ba11
08-11-2021, 12:17 AM
Don't have to when you don't have the urge to listen or agree anyway.
I just responded point by point to Saintz drivel earlier itt.. I always respond to people that respond to the points being made.. Unless i just happen to miss their response
SaintzFury13
08-11-2021, 06:50 PM
* Cut the crap Saintz - Lebron had teammates match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20'), while Jordan led Pippen in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg.. it's night and day.. So Lebron needed far more help that Jordan, including a 3rd scorer or a teammate to out-produce him - AD led in scoring for the 2020 regular season and playoffs.. Infact, he led the whole LEAGUE in playoff scoring and was the MVP of the real Finals vs Denver - it was AD-ball vs Denver, while Lebron-ball was reserved for weak teams like the Heat.. Ultimately, Lebron never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer because AD led the Lakers all year in scoring and win shares (regular season and playoffs).
Jordan needed just as much help as LeBron did. If you knew anything at all about the sport of basketball (and it's pretty clear at this point that you don't), defense is just as valuable as offense is. Jordan at one point had TWO first team all defense players. Two. That's a lot more useful than having a third scorer. Oh and by the way, LeBron didn't even have a third scorer in 2016, or a teammate who out produced him. So once again, your argument has no merit here.
And I could care less what AD did during the regular season and in the playoffs. The fact of the matter is, on the biggest stage, LeBron out produced AD. You pointing out what AD did leading up to that is cherry picking on your end because you know your logic of "needing a third scorer or someone to out produce him" is idiotic and holds no real weight.
* Lebron lost with Mo averaging 18 on 38% because Lebron has never beaten a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he has zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing.. Otoh, Jordan has five series where he beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from Pippen (89' 1st Round, 96' Finals, 97' ECF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals).. That's 5 carry-jobs against good teams to Lebron's zero.
Once again, this is further proof that you don't understand anything about basketball. Pippen didn't have to be an elite scorer to positively impact the game. He was able to run the offense, rebound, and defend at an elite level. Mo Williams couldn't do any of that. Scoring was literally the only thing he brought to the team and he couldn't bring it against Orlando.
* Lebron and 2 fringe all-stars (Mo, Zydrunas) and lost to Dwight and his 1 fringe all-star (Lewis)....
Um, no.
Z's last all star appearance was in 2005. He's not a fringe all star in 2009, nor did he ever play like one. And Mo Williams wasn't even a legitimate all star player. He was an injury replacement for Chris Bosh. Rashard Lewis was a legitimate all star player that season.
And Orlando had more problems stopping Lebron in 2009, then the Cavs had stopping Dwight - so Dwight wasn't the issue - it was the Magic's overall offense that got humming because Lebron was guarding Courtney Lee instead of Lewis and/or Hedo..
And this is, once again, further proof that you didn't even watch the series. That's twice now that you've stated LeBron spent most of the series guarding Courtney Lee. He didn't. He guarded Alston. Stop stating obvious bullshit. And no, Cleveland had far more problems dealing with Howard than dealing with LeBron. Howard was literally forcing double teams regularly and put Cleveland's bigs in constant foul trouble, and this resulted in perimeter players being left open time and time again. Yes, LeBron was lighting up Orlando, but they never bothered trying to double team him or adjust their game plan because they knew they could still win even if he goes off. The man literally scored 40+ twice on great efficiency and Cleveland lost both games.
Ultimately, the Magic were one of the biggest underdogs to ever win a series (source here (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/19/21374534/biggest-playoff-upsets-nba-history)).. Stan Van Gundy said "we wanted Lebron to dribble and get stats" (here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?466601-SVG-We-let-Lebron-play-1on1-in-the-09-series-we-were-fine-giving-him-points-stats))..
Imagine being so stupid that you manage to prove someone's point for them without even realizing it.
Ultimately, Lebron can't win with high-scoring because it's too ball-dominant, so it reduces teammates to spot-up roles more than his normal scoring levels, and it's a weaker brand more than his normal scoring levels.. If Lebron could get points while the ball moved (off-ball, elite jumpshooting skill), then his teams would play better brand of ball and win more.. Unfortuantely, Lebron's shit brand loses to 1-star teams with 1 seeds and super-teams (09', 11')..
You literally just gave me a scenario that never once resulted in LeBron losing an entire series. That style of basketball didn't lose them the series against Orlando and it didn't result in him losing against Dallas because he wasn't even the leading scorer, nor was he the leading shot taker. That would be Wade. At this point you're just making shit up.
* And why would you say it's false that Lebron fields low assist teams that get massively out-assisted in his Finals losses?? That's 100% true..
I literally never once said that.
He fields low assist teams that get beat by better-passing teams.. And it's his fault - he starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time).. So teammates have less hold-time and assists in Lebron's 2 point guard lineups then they get in traditional 1-PG lineups, which results in low TEAM assists and shalackings on the Finals level.
Yes, but that isn't what ultimately loses his team the series. In fact there was only one finals series where that problem was evident, and that was 2014 against San Antonio, and even then, it had a lot more to do with Miami's defense simply not being equipped to handle San Antonio's offense and both Wade and Bosh failing to live up to their end of the bargain.
* Btw, team ORTG for a playoff run is opponent-dependant - that's why regular season ORTG's (against the same competition) are used to determine offensive effectiveness.. Any team will have great ortg's in a non-defensive series, while other teams will have low ORTG's if the series is a knock em', drag-out series.. So theres' wild fluctuations when you look at playoff series or playoff runs.. Ultimately, Lebron's teams aren't the ones getting hot on the Finals level because they aren't moving the ball and getting open shots like their opponent - the team assist stats tell the story.
So wait, now you suddenly care about who the opponents are? I'm sorry, I thought who the opponents are is irrelevant. After all, you're the one who just got done shitting on LeBron for "losing to a one all star team", but now suddenly it matters who the opponent actually is? This is why everyone on this forum thinks you're a clown.
SaintzFury13
08-11-2021, 06:50 PM
I just responded point by point to Saintz drivel earlier itt.. I always respond to people that respond to the points being made.. Unless i just happen to miss their response
No you didn't. You laid out five points, which is far less than the amount I had in my entire post.
Gohan
08-12-2021, 03:31 PM
is lebron even a top 10 player of all time? i had to take him out of my top 10 to put iverson in and i feel like it is the best decision ive ever made. he's a little shorter but the eye test and scoring titles says hes better
Airupthere
08-12-2021, 03:38 PM
is lebron even a top 10 player of all time? i had to take him out of my top 10 to put iverson in and i feel like it is the best decision ive ever made. he's a little shorter but the eye test and scoring titles says hes better
The question is, why did you even have AI outside your top 10 to begin with?
SaintzFury13
08-12-2021, 06:25 PM
is lebron even a top 10 player of all time? i had to take him out of my top 10 to put iverson in and i feel like it is the best decision ive ever made. he's a little shorter but the eye test and scoring titles says hes better
I don't know which is more idiotic, not having LeBron in your top ten or having Iverson in it.
3ba11
08-12-2021, 08:14 PM
Jordan needed just as much help as LeBron did
defense is just as valuable as offense is.
Let's look at the statistics and historical record (no opinion)
2009 Cavs'..... #3 defense
1990 Bulls.... #19 defense
2009 Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48.. better scoring & efficiency
1990 Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. worse scoring & efficiency
^^^ So the 2009 Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls - a far better defense and a superior offensive sidekick.
91-93' Bulls.... #4 and #7 defense... 2 scoring options
09-10' Cavs.... #3 and #7 defense... 3 scoring options (or more)
So the 91-93' Bulls had inferior defenses and less scoring help than the 09' or 10' Cavs - that's why those Cavs were the league favorite and 1 seed - they were good enough to win titles, but Lebron left a year early so Dirk won the organic ring that Lebron thought was impossible..
Furthermore, the 11' and 12' Heat had the #4 and #5 defenses - so they were superior defensively to the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having FAR more offensive help... And it's irrelevant after that because Lebron wasn't all-defense for the most part - he hasn't been all-defense in 7 years (since 2014), which is the primary reason his teams suffered defensively.. Otoh, Jordan was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (see the facts below).
Jordan at one point had TWO first team all defense players. Two.
DPOY VOTING
1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)
So Jordan was considered the best defender on the Bulls, and this is confirmed by numerous reporters at the time.
For example, 93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s
And here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:
ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?
FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s
^^^ So Jordan was universally-viewed as the Bulls' best defenders, and this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s
Ultimately, Jordan was scoring champ and top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (the goat standard).
Jordan at one point had TWO first team all defense players. Two.
Lebron played with more players with all-defensive resumes - Hughes, Varejao, Battier, Wade
He also had great rim protection for his entire career (Zydrunas, Mosgov, Shaq, Birdman, AD, Chandler, McGee and more), while Jordan had literally zero rim protection for his entire career
He also had better rebounding teams and played with more good rebounders.. Heck, Drew Gooden or Tristan Thompson rebounded more than Horace...
Furthermore, Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while averaging 4/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs - he wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 4/8 in those Finals.. Rodman was the same washed-up trash that was for the 99' Lakers, but no one noticed because "Da Bulls" were three-peating.
I could care less what AD did during the regular season and in the playoffs. The fact of the matter is, on the biggest stage, LeBron out produced AD.
It doesn't matter what you care about - we have to look at the facts:
Jordan led Pippen in every regular season and every playoff series by at least 10 ppg, which is obviously superior to Lebron being led by AD for the regular season and playoffs, including the real Finals vs Denver... Or having Kyrie as an equal-scoring partner in the 2016 Playoffs.
Pippen didn't have to be an elite scorer to positively impact the game.
A player with spotty offense that plays good defense is called a defensive role player.
During the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen's offense (scoring and efficiency) was the worst-ever for a winning sidekick - he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, along with 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs in playoff history (93', 96', 98')... See the ESPN graphic for worst-ever efficiency in the playoffs here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).
Ultimately, 16 on 50% isn't that bad, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed (98' ECF, among many others).
Accordingly, Pippen was a defensive role player for most of his playoff career - the Bulls won the 93' and 96-98' titles in spite of Pippen, whose worst-ever sidekick performance included 15.7 on 40% in 2 Finals (96', 98') - in today's social media climate, guys like AD or Paul George would be crucified if they played like that - no one would give 2 bird shits about their defense.
Mo Williams wasn't even a legitimate all star player.
Mo was better than Rashard Lewis across the board in 2009, which is why he led the Cavs to 21 more wins and league favorite status:
2009 Mo Will'... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48.. better scoring, assists, efficiency
2009 Lewis...... 16.8 PER... 0.160 WS/48.. worse scoring, assists, efficiency
That's why Mo was an all-star despite being overshadowed by Lebron, and that's why the Cavs were massive favorites with home court advantage against the Magic.
Lebron guarded Alston.
There's no excuse for Lebron not guarding his position in that series - it was a massive blunder by Mike Brown, and also Lebron for not demanding to defend the key players that were hitting the key shots (hedo, rashard).
And who cares if Lebron averages 39 when those points produce a weak brand of team offense that can't keep up with the opponent.. Ball-dominance kills ball movement (hoops 101), and generally loses to ball movement... Teams like the 09' Magic, 14' Spurs or 17' Warriors get got on Lebron because they're moving the ball for open shots, while Lebron-ball gets more predictable, contested looks for teammates.
Ultimately, Lebron's lack of hot jumpshooting and skill restriction to ball-dominance doesn't force doubles, shift defenses or wear down teams like the superior ball movement and shooting he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. Lebron-ball simply loses the attrition battle against the top teams or on the Finals level.
LeBron for "losing to a one all star team"
* Lebron lost to 1-star teams multiple times
* Lebron lost as the favorite many times
* Lebron lost with super-teams many times
^^^ that isn't goat or anywhere near, let alone comparing to Jordan
SATAN
08-12-2021, 08:17 PM
1-9
is lebron even a top 10 player of all time? i had to take him out of my top 10 to put iverson in and i feel like it is the best decision ive ever made. he's a little shorter but the eye test and scoring titles says hes better
I can say kong is pretty much ahead of stephen curry.
SaintzFury13
08-12-2021, 09:02 PM
Let's look at the statistics and historical record (no opinion)
2009 Cavs'..... #3 defense
1990 Bulls.... #19 defense
2009 Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48.. better scoring & efficiency
1990 Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. worse scoring & efficiency
^^^ So the 2009 Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls - a far better defense and a superior offensive sidekick.
91-93' Bulls.... #4 and #7 defense... 2 scoring options
09-10' Cavs.... #3 and #7 defense... 3 scoring options (or more)
So the 91-93' Bulls had inferior defenses and less scoring help than the 09' or 10' Cavs - that's why those Cavs were the league favorite and 1 seed - they were good enough to win titles, but Lebron left a year early so Dirk won the organic ring that Lebron thought was impossible..
Furthermore, the 11' and 12' Heat had the #4 and #5 defenses - so they were superior defensively to the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having FAR more offensive help... And it's irrelevant after that because Lebron wasn't all-defense for the most part - he hasn't been all-defense in 7 years (since 2014), which is the primary reason his teams suffered defensively.. Otoh, Jordan was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (see the facts below).
This might be one of the worst arguments I've ever heard.
I mean...where do I even begin? I guess I'll start with the most obvious, which is that the team I was referring to was the 96 Chicago Bulls, not the ones from the first three peat, you absolute moron. But sure, let's go by your logic for a second.
So because the Cavaliers had a better defensive ranking in THEIR respective league, that means they were automatically a better defensive team than the Bulls since they were ranked lower in their league.
I mean...shit. I guess by that logic, the 2007 Cavaliers are a better defensive team than the 2004 Detroit Pistons, the Bad Boy Pistons, and the 96 Chicago Bulls, right? Hell, let's just throw in the 77 Nuggets while we're at it.
It amazes me how you manage to outdo yourself with every post.
Also, I call bullshit on literally every single stat you just gave me there. Either provide proof of those stats or don't ever speak of them again.
DPOY VOTING
1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)
So Jordan was considered the best defender on the Bulls, and this is confirmed by numerous reporters at the time.
For example, 93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s
And here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:
ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?
FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s
^^^ So Jordan was universally-viewed as the Bulls' best defenders, and this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s
When the hell did I ever state that Jordan wasn't the Bulls best defensive player? You just wasted all this time putting together an argument on something I never once disagreed with.
Ultimately, Jordan was scoring champ and top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (the goat standard).
Yeah, thanks for pointing out the obvious.
Lebron played with more players with all-defensive resumes - Hughes, Varejao, Battier, Wade
Literally none of those guys apart from Wade made first team all defense. Scottie Pippen has more all defense selections than all of those players combined. Dennis Rodman is considered one of the greatest defensive players of all time at his position. Don't try to argue that LeBron played with more players with all defense resumes, especially when he never played with more than two on the same team.
He also had great rim protection for his entire career (Zydrunas, Mosgov, Shaq, Birdman, AD, Chandler, McGee and more), while Jordan had literally zero rim protection for his entire career
Zydrunas: Was never, EVER, at any point in his career a great rim protector. Ever. Don't ever call this man a great rim protector ever again.
Mozgov: He was decent, at best.
Shaq: Lmao. No.
Birdman: I love me some Birdman. I'll defend that man until the day I die. I'll give you that one.
Chandler: Lmao.
McGee: McGee is not a great rim protector by any stretch of the imagination. He is, at best, a decent rim protector who stat pads like crazy. He lacks basic defensive instincts and doesn't really know how to properly defend down low.
AD: This is the only one you are legitimately right about who was also a starter.
So congrats, apart from AD, you were only right about one...and he was a bench player.
He also had better rebounding teams and played with more good rebounders.. Heck, Drew Gooden or Tristan Thompson rebounded more than Horace...
No, he didn't.
Don't be a retard.
Furthermore, Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while averaging 4/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs - he wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 4/8 in those Finals.. Rodman was the same washed-up trash that was for the 99' Lakers, but no one noticed because "Da Bulls" were three-peating.
And yet he was still the rebounding champion in all three years of that threepeat. So no, he was not "washed up". And he was still a terrific defensive player, far better than anyone LeBron ever had until he got AD.
SaintzFury13
08-12-2021, 09:02 PM
Jordan led Pippen in every regular season and every playoff series by at least 10 ppg, which is obviously superior to Lebron being led by AD for the regular season and playoffs, including the real Finals vs Denver... Or having Kyrie as an equal-scoring partner in the 2016 Playoffs.
What does any of this have to do with LeBron outperforming AD in the NBA Finals?
A player with spotty offense that plays good defense is called a defensive role player.
A defensive role player doesn't run the offense you moron.
During the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen's offense (scoring and efficiency) was the worst-ever for a winning sidekick - he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, along with 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs in playoff history (93', 96', 98')... See the ESPN graphic for worst-ever efficiency in the playoffs here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).
That's far better than a guy who averages 18 PPG on 38% shooting and literally does nothing else outside of that.
Ultimately, 16 on 50% isn't that bad, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed (98' ECF, among many others).
Then I guess what you're saying is, LeBron's teammates wet the bed in 2009. Thanks for proving my point for me.
Accordingly, Pippen was a defensive role player for most of his playoff career - the Bulls won the 93' and 96-98' titles in spite of Pippen, whose worst-ever sidekick performance included 15.7 on 40% in 2 Finals (96', 98') - in today's social media climate, guys like AD or Paul George would be crucified if they played like that - no one would give 2 bird shits about their defense.
Actually, yeah they would. Most people aren't retards like you and focus more on just offense. That's why most people credit Pau Gasol for helping Kobe win two more championships even though he wasn't spectacular from a scoring standpoint.
Mo was better than Rashard Lewis across the board in 2009, which is why he led the Cavs to 21 more wins and league favorite status:
2009 Mo Will'... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48.. better scoring, assists, efficiency
2009 Lewis...... 16.8 PER... 0.160 WS/48.. worse scoring, assists, efficiency
A ****ing .4 difference in PER means "better across the board".
I guess LeBron truly is the second greatest player of all time because he has the second highest PER in NBA history.
That's why Mo was an all-star despite being overshadowed by Lebron, and that's why the Cavs were massive favorites with home court advantage against the Magic.
No, it's really not. Mo Williams was an all star because Chris Bosh got injured. Rashard Lewis was a man who was literally selected to be an all star. Mo Williams wasn't.
There's no excuse for Lebron not guarding his position in that series - it was a massive blunder by Mike Brown, and also Lebron for not demanding to defend the key players that were hitting the key shots (hedo, rashard).
So after saying it three times now, you are now acknowledging that you did not watch the series at all and concede that the LeBron guarding Courtney Lee thing was a straight up lie on your part.
Thanks for telling us something we already knew.
FYI, LeBron could have guarded Rashard Lewis for every second of the games. It wouldn't have mattered. That wasn't going to solve their match up problems.
And who cares if Lebron averages 39 when those points produce a weak brand of team offense that can't keep up with the opponent.. Ball-dominance kills ball movement (hoops 101), and generally loses to ball movement...
You should not be attempting to make an argument like this after you just outright admitted that you didn't watch the series. That brand of basketball that you are describing is the only reason that series wasn't a sweep in Orlando's favor. Cleveland's offense was not the issue in that series. It was their inability to defend against Orlando. You're giving LeBron shit for something that didn't even cost them the series.
Teams like the 09' Magic, 14' Spurs or 17' Warriors get got on Lebron because they're moving the ball for open shots, while Lebron-ball gets more predictable, contested looks for teammates.
And yet that brand of basketball that you once again shit on did very well against the Magic in 09, and was non existent in 17 because that's not how that team played.
Ultimately, Lebron's lack of hot jumpshooting and skill restriction to ball-dominance doesn't force doubles, shift defenses or wear down teams like the superior ball movement and shooting he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. Lebron-ball simply loses the attrition battle against the top teams or on the Finals level.
Again, what lack of jump shooting are you talking about? That stopped being a legitimate thing in 2012. By that point it became clear that he was no longer someone you could simply leave open on the perimeter. You HAD to respect his jump shot. He didn't become Ray Allen or anything of the sort. He didn't have to for teams to be able to get away with playing him the way teams like the Celtics in 2010 and Mavericks in 2011 did.
* Lebron lost to 1-star teams multiple times
He's literally never once lost a series to a one all star team except for one time, and that was in 2011 against the Mavericks. Again, stop making shit up.
* Lebron lost as the favorite many times
And only one of those instances were his fault.
* Lebron lost with super-teams many times
And once again I say, only one of those instances were his fault.
^^^ that isn't goat or anywhere near, let alone comparing to Jordan[/QUOTE]
And now with all of this, I ask...
When the **** did I ever state that LeBron was the GOAT? In fact, I have stated multiple times now that he isn't the GOAT you absolute retard.
I don't know which is more idiotic, not having LeBron in your top ten or having Iverson in it.
You seem like a serious poster so I’d recommend you put that user and 3ball on your ignore list. Both worthless trolls who are about as smart as a rock. If you want legitimate basketball discussion I’d go to real gm nba forum. Here is just shitposting mostly.
3ba11
08-12-2021, 09:39 PM
:facepalm:
3ba11
08-12-2021, 09:40 PM
What does any of this have to do with LeBron outperforming AD in the NBA Finals?
AD outperfomed Lebron the entire year - who cares about the Finals against a garbage team that the Lakers would've won without AD... Or with AD but without Lebron.
A defensive role player doesn't run the offense you moron.
No one that averages a pathetic 5 assists "runs" anything.
And Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often in the playoffs (assist percentage).
So Jordan ran the offense by leading the team in assists while scoring more than anyone in history - and if the team needed someone to get more than 7 assists, ONLY JORDAN could do it.
That's far better than a guy who averages 18 PPG on 38% shooting and literally does nothing else outside of that.
The Cavs' defense took the 08' Celtics the distance despite Lebron wetting the bed (26 on 35%)... Lebron is the only 1st option in history that shot 35% in a series, but the Cavs' defense was so good that they still took the Celtics to 7 games... So the Cavs were known for their defense and the 09' Cavs had a better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
But despite a superior defense, Lebron lost with 18 on 38% from Mo, while Jordan always won with that from Pippen (and worse defenses than the Cavs).. Lebron can't win with high scoring like Jordan can because it's too ball-dominant (reduces brand and teammates to spot-up shooter)
Then I guess what you're saying is, LeBron's teammates wet the bed in 2009. Thanks for proving my point for me.
When teammates wet the bed, Lebron can't beat good teams - he can't have carry-jobs against good teams... In nearly 2 decades of playing (massive sample size) he has zero wins in against top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick..
Otoh, Jordan has 5 such carry-jobs (89' 1st Round, 96' Finals, 97' ECF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals).
Actually, yeah they would. Most people aren't retards like you and focus more on just offense. That's why most people credit Pau Gasol for helping Kobe win two more championships even though he wasn't spectacular from a scoring standpoint.
Lebron had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scorers, but still couldn't win.. So I'm not sure what your point is - Lebron can't win like MJ and needs far more help to win - he never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer - that's nowhere near goat or #2
No, it's really not. Mo Williams was an all star because Chris Bosh got injured. Rashard Lewis was a man who was literally selected to be an all star. Mo Williams wasn't.
Mo was an all-star because he had better stats across the board than Lewis (PER, win share, scoring, assists, efficiency), while leading the Cavs from a 45-win bum team to 66-win league favorite.
facts gonna facts, regardless of your whining and deflecting
So after saying it three times now, you are now acknowledging that you did not watch the series at all and concede that the LeBron guarding Courtney Lee thing was a straight up lie on your part.
Thanks for telling us something we already knew.
FYI, LeBron could have guarded Rashard Lewis for every second of the games. It wouldn't have mattered. That wasn't going to solve their match up problems.
It's Lebron's fault for scoring an empty 39 with no impact - Stan preferred Lebron dominating the ball rather than the ball moving - Lebron can't score while the ball moves, so he lost to a weaker team and massive underdog.
Anytime you lose as the massive favorite - it's your fault... You were supposed to win but obviously weren't doing something right - in this case, Lebron botched the defensive end and employed a shit brand on offense.
You should not be attempting to make an argument like this after you just outright admitted that you didn't watch the series. That brand of basketball that you are describing is the only reason that series wasn't a sweep in Orlando's favor. Cleveland's offense was not the issue in that series. It was their inability to defend against Orlando. You're giving LeBron shit for something that didn't even cost them the series.
When did I say I didn't watch the series?
Of course I watched the series and I was shocked to see Lebron not guarding his position and mostly guarding Lee - I knew it was a mistake from Game 1 - btw, I was cheering for Lebron back then - Kobe was the man I hated (he was the one people were saying was on MJ's level at the time).
Again, what lack of jumpshooting are you talking about? That stopped being a legitimate thing in 2012. By that point it became clear that he was no longer someone you could simply leave open on the perimeter. You HAD to respect his jump shot. He didn't become Ray Allen or anything of the sort. He didn't have to for teams to be able to get away with playing him the way teams like the Celtics in 2010 and Mavericks in 2011 did.
It's a statistical fact that Lebron doesn't take contested jumpshots (let me know if you need me to post the stats), while his peers do (KD, Harden, Kawhi).
His lack of ability to be aggressive and threaten to "get hot" means that he doesn't command doubles... The lack of doubles and ball movement means that he doesn't make the defense work as hard as his own team defense is working.
So again, Lebron's weak jumpshooting and ball movement doesn't shift defenses or wear down teams like the shooting and ball movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. Lebron-ball simply loses the attrition battle on the championship level and often gets blown away.
He's literally never once lost a series to a one all star team except for one time, and that was in 2011 against the Mavericks. Again, stop making shit up.
The 09' Magic were a 1-star team... If Lewis is considered a "star", then so is Mo and Zydrunas.
And only one of those instances were his fault.
They were all his fault - even the 07' Finals where he averaged 22 on 35% - the worst Finals performance ever = your fault... All 4 games were really close...
Sportal
08-12-2021, 09:40 PM
Arguing with the mentally ill never brings anything productive.
In one post 3iq has said the Finals don't matter, and then the Finals do matter, all subject to his own agendas.
The 2020 Finals didn't matter when comparing LeBron and AD because it was vs the Miami Heat... But the 2007 Finals matter because LeBron got shutdown by the Spurs after passing by Detroit(which was a big upset) to get there.
I bet 3iq didn't even watch the 2007 Finals, and is strictly just box score reviewing. But I legitimately remember the feeling(and watched the games) around the Cavs vs Magic and remember how the teams matched up.
3iq - you've openly said that the Lob City Clippers were better than Jordan's best Finals opponents, the Jazz... Should we discount those titles because at least the 2020 Miami Heat team made the Finals, unlike Lob City... Who never made the WCF?
Don't be upset, I'm just using your logic. You've set the tone and the standard here.
3ba11
08-13-2021, 02:37 PM
Arguing with the mentally ill never brings anything productive.
In one post 3iq has said the Finals don't matter, and then the Finals do matter, all subject to his own agendas.
The 2020 Finals didn't matter when comparing LeBron and AD because it was vs the Miami Heat... But the 2007 Finals matter because LeBron got shutdown by the Spurs after passing by Detroit(which was a big upset) to get there.
I bet 3iq didn't even watch the 2007 Finals, and is strictly just box score reviewing. But I legitimately remember the feeling(and watched the games) around the Cavs vs Magic and remember how the teams matched up.
3iq - you've openly said that the Lob City Clippers were better than Jordan's best Finals opponents, the Jazz... Should we discount those titles because at least the 2020 Miami Heat team made the Finals, unlike Lob City... Who never made the WCF?
Don't be upset, I'm just using your logic. You've set the tone and the standard here.
Lebron had teammates match or lead him for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20') - MJ didn't and carried his team every single year in regular season, playoffs and Finals - MJ is the only player in history that did this
Jordan was afforded players that he could actually grow and groom with draft picks and in Prime trades …
Lebron got crappy trades, expiring contracts and players with Lots of league miles on them��
HoopsNY
08-13-2021, 03:11 PM
The same way MJ had the most defensive help ever
Rodman
Pippen
Grant
Harper
Top defense without him in 94
Yep. Chicago was the most stacked team throughout the 90s, with the exception of a few teams. The Bulls were 2nd in DRTG in 1995 despite losing Grant and MJ returning for just 17 games.
3ball doesn't want to admit that while MJ did carry the team at times, most of the time, he didn't. The Bulls almost always gave a sound defensive contribution.
3ba11
08-13-2021, 03:20 PM
3ball doesn't want to admit that while MJ did carry the team at times, most of the time, he didn't. The Bulls almost always gave a sound defensive contribution.
No one in history doubled their sidekick's scoring average in the playoffs, while leading the team in assists and getting more DPOY votes every year - Jordan carried the team in every category - scoring, assists, DPOY votes
But carry-jobs are about SCORING - and only Jordan carried teams in that regard because everyone in history needed equal-scoring partners or teamamates to outscore him for entire playoff runs, while Jordan dominated the scoring load for every SERIES
Yep. Chicago was the most stacked team throughout the 90s, with the exception of a few teams. The Bulls were 2nd in DRTG in 1995 despite losing Grant and MJ returning for just 17 games.
Let's look at the statistics and historical record (no opinion)
2009 Cavs'..... #3 defense
1990 Bulls.... #19 defense
2009 Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48.. better scoring & efficiency
1990 Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. worse scoring & efficiency
^^^ So the 2009 Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls - a far better defense and a superior offensive sidekick.
91-93' Bulls.... #4 and #7 defense... 2 scoring options
09-10' Cavs.... #3 and #7 defense... 3 scoring options (or more)
So the 91-93' Bulls had inferior defenses and less scoring help than the 09' or 10' Cavs - that's why those Cavs were the league favorite and 1 seed - they were good enough to win titles, but Lebron left a year early so Dirk won the organic ring that Lebron thought was impossible..
Furthermore, the 11' and 12' Heat had the #4 and #5 defenses - so they were superior defensively to the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having FAR more offensive help... And it's irrelevant after that because Lebron wasn't all-defense for the most part - he hasn't been all-defense in 7 years (since 2014), which is the primary reason his teams suffered defensively.. Otoh, Jordan was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (see the facts below).
3ball doesn't want to admit that while MJ did carry the team at times, most of the time, he didn't. The Bulls almost always gave a sound defensive contribution.
DPOY VOTING
1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)
So Jordan was considered the best defender on the Bulls, and this is confirmed by numerous reporters at the time.
For example, 93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s
And here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:
ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?
FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s
^^^ So Jordan was universally-viewed as the Bulls' best defenders, and this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s
Ultimately, Jordan was scoring champ and top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (the goat standard).
Yep. Chicago was the most stacked team throughout the 90s, with the exception of a few teams. The Bulls were 2nd in DRTG in 1995 despite losing Grant and MJ returning for just 17 games.
Lebron played with more players with all-defensive resumes - Hughes, Varejao, Battier, Wade
He also had great rim protection for his entire career (Zydrunas, Mosgov, Shaq, Birdman, AD, Chandler, McGee and more), while Jordan had literally zero rim protection for his entire career
He also had better rebounding teams and played with more good rebounders.. Heck, Drew Gooden or Tristan Thompson rebounded more than Horace...
Furthermore, Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while averaging 4/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs - he wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 4/8 in those Finals.. Rodman was the same washed-up trash that was for the 99' Lakers, but no one noticed because "Da Bulls" were three-peating.
Yep. Chicago was the most stacked team throughout the 90s, with the exception of a few teams. The Bulls were 2nd in DRTG in 1995 despite losing Grant and MJ returning for just 17 games.
We have to look at the facts:
Jordan led Pippen in every regular season and every playoff series by at least 10 ppg, which is obviously superior to Lebron being led by AD for the regular season and playoffs, including the real Finals vs Denver... Or having Kyrie as an equal-scoring partner in the 2016 Playoffs.
Yep. Chicago was the most stacked team throughout the 90s, with the exception of a few teams. The Bulls were 2nd in DRTG in 1995 despite losing Grant and MJ returning for just 17 games.
A player with spotty offense that plays good defense is called a defensive role player.
During the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen's offense (scoring and efficiency) was the worst-ever for a winning sidekick - he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, along with 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs in playoff history (93', 96', 98')... See the ESPN graphic for worst-ever efficiency in the playoffs here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).
Ultimately, 16 on 50% isn't that bad, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed (98' ECF, among many others).
Accordingly, Pippen was a defensive role player for most of his playoff career - the Bulls won the 93' and 96-98' titles in spite of Pippen, whose worst-ever sidekick performance included 15.7 on 40% in 2 Finals (96', 98') - in today's social media climate, guys like AD or Paul George would be crucified if they played like that - no one would give 2 bird shits about their defense.
HoopsNY
08-13-2021, 04:00 PM
There is a simple way to look at this.
Chicago's playoff and finals rap sheet is extensive. One of the reasons MJ is the greatest player of all-time is that he typically rose to the occasion when his team needed him to, in the absence of other pieces.
So when the deck was stacked, as it was in 1996 (Chicago had the MVP, 3 All-Defensive 1st Team players, COY, 6MOY), they made it to the finals and won decisively.
Pippen injured? Harper went down? No problem. Chicago could still have Rodman on the defensive end, grabbing rebounds. And Chicago's defense could stifle Seattle's shooters.
In 1991, the team gave a great effort, including Pippen who switched onto Magic for a portion of the series. If I'm not mistaken, I remember hearing the announcers at the time saying something about Paxson setting a record for consecutive FGs made.
Grant shot 63% in that series.
Paxson shot 65%!!!!
In 1992, same thing. Pippen had a great series. But so did a lot of other guys. Grant gave them double double numbers. BJ went 14/5.
BJ, Paxson, Grant, and Tucker combined shot 80-147 (54% FG%)
But the flip side can also be true. Chicago and Phoenix averaged the same points in 1993. MJ needed to carry that scoring load and dropped 41 PPG.
In 1997, Pippen had a great finals. Admit that much. 20/8/4/2/2 on 54% TS% (higher than MJ's), plus key defensive stops.
But who held Malone to under 24 PPG on 44% shooting? It wasn't MJ. :lol
1998 was similar but more of a carry job. But again, the Jazz as a team were dominated defensively. Just take a look at the splits:
Utah 1998 RS: 101 PPG/ 49% FGs/ 37% 3PT
Utah 1998 Finals: 80 PPG/ 44% FGs/ 22% 3PT
So let me guess, MJ shut down the whole team?
You need to learn to give credit where credit is due, and that includes the defensive help that Chicago gave as a team. It's a team sport. Yes, MJ was tasked with guarding some of the elite PGs at the time, including KJ, Magic, GP, and Stockton, but so were other guys.
3ba11
08-13-2021, 04:05 PM
There is a simple way to look at this.
One of the reasons MJ is the greatest player of all-time
MJ is the goat because he's the only guy in history that carried a team to a bunch of titles - everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ carried his team in every SERIES - it's not remotely close
you can't refute that with defense or Paxson shooting 65% and 9 ppg - the Lakers' cast outplayed the Bulls cast significantly - look it up - only MJ's domination of Magic allowed victory in that series.. It's the best 2-way performance that anyone's ever had... And the 91' and 92' chips are the most help Jordan ever had, yet he still carried them statistically... The 93' and 96-98' titles are 1-man teams.. the stats show this clearly - jordan won those titles IN SPITE of a shitty cast, especially pippen
SaintzFury13
08-13-2021, 04:46 PM
AD outperfomed Lebron the entire year - who cares about the Finals against a garbage team that the Lakers would've won without AD... Or with AD but without Lebron.
You should, because you just got done trying to argue that LeBron couldn't win a finals series without a super team or being the clear cut number one guy from a production standpoint. Well guess what? He did that in 2020. Nothing that happened beforehand proves anything. It's all about the finals in the end, and LeBron showed up when needed.
No one that averages a pathetic 5 assists "runs" anything.
So now you don't even understand what running an offense means.
Well here's your first lesson: Running the offense doesn't always mean you get the most assists.
And Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often in the playoffs (assist percentage).
I swear, it's like you literally have never watched a game of basketball in your life.
So Jordan ran the offense by leading the team in assists while scoring more than anyone in history - and if the team needed someone to get more than 7 assists, ONLY JORDAN could do it.
Jordan did not run the offense. Most of his assists came off of forced double teams and dishes from him when he attempted to score.
This is amazing. You literally do not know what running the offense means in the sport of basketball.
The Cavs' defense took the 08' Celtics the distance despite Lebron wetting the bed (26 on 35%)...
Again, further proof that you didn't watch the Cavaliers play at all back then, or even the Celtics for that matter.
No one will deny LeBron's shitty play at times in that series. But to even act like he's the reason they lost, when in fact he was the reason they almost stole game 7 from Boston with a historically great game 7 performance, is idiotic beyond comprehension.
Lebron is the only 1st option in history that shot 35% in a series, but the Cavs' defense was so good that they still took the Celtics to 7 games... So the Cavs were known for their defense and the 09' Cavs had a better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
First off, no he's not. Second, I am still waiting for you to site your sources on those defensive rankings that you posted, because I am 99% certain they are bullshit.
But despite a superior defense, Lebron lost with 18 on 38% from Mo, while Jordan always won with that from Pippen (and worse defenses than the Cavs).. Lebron can't win with high scoring like Jordan can because it's too ball-dominant (reduces brand and teammates to spot-up shooter)
You are once again resorting to repeating yourself after I've already stated why this logic doesn't work. Pippen's greatest asset wasn't his scoring. Mo Williams greatest asset was scoring. This argument does not work. Stop being a moron.
When teammates wet the bed, Lebron can't beat good teams - he can't have carry-jobs against good teams... In nearly 2 decades of playing (massive sample size) he has zero wins in against top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick..
So beating the 53 win Boston Celtics in 2018 in an obvious carry job doesn't matter
Otoh, Jordan has 5 such carry-jobs (89' 1st Round, 96' Finals, 97' ECF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals).
The 96 Finals.
A series where many consider Dennis Rodman to be the more deserving Finals MVP and Jordan was struggling against Payton.
I don't think you understand what a carry job is.
Lebron had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scorers, but still couldn't win.. So I'm not sure what your point is
My point is that what you are saying is not correct. LeBron did not have better defenses than the first three point Bulls. That's an insult to my and everyone else's intelligence. If you are going to repeat this claim, I am not going to continue to read the rest of your post. Either prove that was the case or shut up. So far you haven't proven anything you've said to be correct. Meanwhile, you've already admitted that you didn't even watch the Magic/Cavs series. So why on earth should I believe that you've ever once watched Jordan play? You don't ever describe how he played or why what he did were carry jobs. You go off of misleading stats. That's not how this shit works. Stats do not determine just how much a player means to a team. Stats do not tell you if player A was the one running the offense or if it was player B. But the very fact that you just tried to argue that Jordan was the one always running the offense, not Pippen, tells me you've legit never watched a single Michael Jordan game before.
So please, prove that statement wrong.
SaintzFury13
08-13-2021, 04:47 PM
MJ is the goat because he's the only guy in history that carried a team to a bunch of titles - everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ carried his team in every SERIES - it's not remotely close
you can't refute that with defense or Paxson shooting 65% and 9 ppg - the Lakers' cast outplayed the Bulls cast significantly - look it up - only MJ's domination of Magic allowed victory in that series.. It's the best 2-way performance that anyone's ever had... And the 91' and 92' chips are the most help Jordan ever had, yet he still carried them statistically... The 93' and 96-98' titles are 1-man teams.. the stats show this clearly - jordan won those titles IN SPITE of a shitty cast, especially pippen
So now you're claiming Jordan was the one who guarded Magic in the 91 Finals?
3ba11
08-13-2021, 04:51 PM
So now you're claiming Jordan was the one who guarded Magic in the 91 Finals?
It's a fact and one of the most misreported things in history
Pippen didn't guard Magic at all in Games 1, 4, and 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4)... Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters in Game 3, and the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 4 - that's it - so that's 6 of 20 quarters (30%), while Jordan guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters plus the Game 3 OT.
SaintzFury13
08-13-2021, 05:06 PM
It's a fact and one of the most misreported things in history
Pippen didn't guard Magic at all in Games 1, 4, and 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4)... Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters in Game 3, and the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 4 - that's it - so that's 6 of 20 quarters (30%), while Jordan guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters plus the Game 3 OT.
It's amazing how easy it is to bait you.
3ba11
08-13-2021, 05:27 PM
I am still waiting for you to site your sources on those defensive rankings that you posted, because I am 99% certain they are bullshit.
The 09' Cavs had the #3 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html
The 10' Cavs had the #7 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2010.html
The 91' and 93' Bulls had the #7 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html
The 92' Bulls had the #4 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html
The 1st three-peat Bulls had inferior defenses to 4 of 6 Finals and ECF opponents.
In addition to yielding inferior team defenses, Pippen has zero instances of locking anyone down individually as the primary defender - a hobbled Worthy got his normal stats against Pippen (20 on 48%)... Kersey and Dumas the same - rookie Dumas actually went off in the 93' Finals (16 on 57% like 14' Kawhi), while Schrempf outplayed Pippen in the 96' Finals... Penny destroyed Pippen in thier matchups - and Penny was the only good wing that Pippen guarded as the primary defender - Drexler, Magic, Miller or Payton were assigned to Jordan... I suppose Pippen guarded Glen Rice too, but MJ spent a lot of time on Rice, so it's hard to say.
You should, because you just got done trying to argue that LeBron couldn't win a finals series without a super team or being the clear cut number one guy from a production standpoint. Well guess what? He did that in 2020. Nothing that happened beforehand proves anything. It's all about the finals in the end, and LeBron showed up when needed.
When you have to lie about what I said (bolded above), then you lose the argument..
I said Lebron can't win a title without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer, which is historical fact - AD led the Lakers all year in the regular season and playoffs, so Lebron wasn't the clear-cut top producer on the team... AD was the top producer based on vital stats like PPG, win share or other stats, so Lebron wasn't the clear-cut top producer on that team.
So now you don't even understand what running an offense means.
Well here's your first lesson: Running the offense doesn't always mean you get the most assists.
Pippen didn't "run" the offense because it was an equal-opportunity offense and he didn't have the ball anywhere nearly as much as Jordan - Jordan had goat usage and led the team in assist percentage by a wide margin
Jordan was the offense and every team in the league knew this - like Shaq said (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494397-Sourced-quotes-from-people-in-the-NBA-talking-candidly-about-Pippen), Pippen was never in the scouting report (and he would know)
I swear, it's like you literally have never watched a game of basketball in your life.
No, I just don't watch the game with blinders on like you do - you see what you want to see and ignore what's actually happening if it doesn't match what you want to see..
No one will deny LeBron's shitty play at times in that series. But to even act like he's the reason they lost, when in fact he was the reason they almost stole game 7 from Boston with a historically great game 7 performance, is idiotic beyond comprehension.
If a guy loses while playing worse than anyone has ever hasas 1st option (35%), then he's a primary reason for the loss.
It's funny because you guys say Jordan had good help because of his team's defense, but the Cavs had higher-ranked defenses and infact saved Lebron in the 08' ECSF - if Lebron doesn't shoot a worst-ever 35%, the Cavs win that series easily (carried by their defense).
You are once again resorting to repeating yourself after I've already stated why this logic doesn't work. Pippen's greatest asset wasn't his scoring. Mo Williams greatest asset was scoring. This argument does not work. Stop being a moron.
2nd options must be good scorers, or they're defensive role players
And Pippen's worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) proves that he couldn't handle the 2nd option scoring role.. So he was a defensive role player that was forced into a 2nd option role in the triangle..
Without the triangle, he's a 14 ppg player (89' and 99')
So beating the 53 win Boston Celtics in 2018 in an obvious carry job doesn't matter
2018 Celtics..... 55 wins... #7 SRS.. 1 all-star.. 3.6 net rating
1989 Cavs........ 57 wins.. #1 SRS.. 3 all-star.. 7.7 net rating
1989 Knicks..... 52 wins.. #8 SRS.. 2 all-star.. 3.7 net rating
It was pre-title Jordan and his sophomore low seed that beat the 89' Cavs, whereas Lebron was a veteran champion high seed when he beat the 18' Celtics.. And the best 2nd option in the conference (Love).. Love would've been a top 5 1st option in that conference.
The 96 Finals.
A series where many consider Dennis Rodman to be the more deserving Finals MVP and Jordan was struggling against Payton.
I don't think you understand what a carry job is.
A carry-job is where you average 27 in the 96' Finals, while your sidekick averages a worst-ever 15.7 on 34% (worst performance for a winning sidekick in Finals history)...
So Jordan averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick in every Finals, compared to 2-6 for Lebron.. Indeed, Jordan won with a true 2nd option that averaged far less, while Lebron had an elite 1st option sidekick (1b) to match him in scoring (share the load).... Night and day.. One guy was carrying his team, and the other guy had equal-scoring partners (shared load).
My point is that what you are saying is not correct. LeBron did not have better defenses than the first three point Bulls. That's an insult to my and everyone else's intelligence. If you are going to repeat this claim, I am not going to continue to read the rest of your post. Either prove that was the case or shut up. So far you haven't proven anything you've said to be correct. Meanwhile, you've already admitted that you didn't even watch the Magic/Cavs series. So why on earth should I believe that you've ever once watched Jordan play? You don't ever describe how he played or why what he did were carry jobs. You go off of misleading stats. That's not how this shit works. Stats do not determine just how much a player means to a team. Stats do not tell you if player A was the one running the offense or if it was player B. But the very fact that you just tried to argue that Jordan was the one always running the offense, not Pippen, tells me you've legit never watched a single Michael Jordan game before.
So please, prove that statement wrong.
The sources for the defensive stats are shown at the very top of this response,
And why do you keep repeating the bolded above???..
I watched the 09' ECF avidly - I watched all of Lebron's games up until 2011.. Then I stopped watching hoops altogether.
I had realized the inherent flaw in Lebron's game, which also opened my eyes to his fraudulent methodology (stacking the deck because he lacks the skills to win organically, aka his ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win, aka he's a FRAUD)
SaintzFury13
08-13-2021, 06:14 PM
The 09' Cavs had the #3 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html
The 10' Cavs had the #7 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2010.html
The 91' and 93' Bulls had the #7 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html
The 92' Bulls had the #4 defense:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html
Good, now we're getting somewhere. FYI, this still doesn't prove the Cavs had the superior defense.
The 1st three-peat Bulls had inferior defenses to 4 of 6 Finals and ECF opponents.
Prove it.
In addition to yielding inferior team defenses, Pippen has zero instances of locking anyone down individually as the primary defender
He literally locked down Magic Johnson in 91. Don't bullshit.
a hobbled Worthy got his normal stats against Pippen (20 on 48%)
That's not normal for Worthy at all. That's well below what he was accustomed to getting as the second option.
When you have to lie about what I said (bolded above), then you lose the argument..
I said Lebron can't win a title without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer, which is historical fact
And once again, no it's not, because he did it without a super team in 2016 and he was the clear cut top producer in 2020. Your point has no merit when LeBron was the clear cut top producer on the biggest stage of them all. It doesn't matter what happened beforehand. LeBron doing it all in the finals kills your argument. You can't have it both ways. If there is an instances where he is doing it AND wins, then it automatically proves your point to be false.
So in other words, he did it twice. I'm not going to continue wasting my time beating a dead horse. Your argument is factually incorrect. I can just as easily state that Jordan could never make it to an NBA finals without Scottie Pippen. I choose not to use that argument because I'm not that stupid.
Pippen didn't "run" the offense because it was an equal-opportunity offense and he didn't have the ball anywhere nearly as much as Jordan - Jordan had goat usage and led the team in assist percentage by a wide margin
AGAIN, LEARN WHAT RUNNING THE OFFENSE MEANS.
Jordan was the offense and every team in the league knew this - like Shaq said (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494397-Sourced-quotes-from-people-in-the-NBA-talking-candidly-about-Pippen), Pippen was never in the scouting report (and he would know)
[QUOTE=3ba11;14418343]No, I just don't watch the game with blinders on like you do - you see what you want to see and ignore what's actually happening if it doesn't match what you want to see..
You mean like how you claim LeBron spent an entire series guarding Courtney Lee who wasn't even his main defensive assignment?
If a guy loses while playing worse than anyone has ever hasas 1st option (35%), then he's a primary reason for the loss.
And this in a nut shell shows why you are a moron and know nothing about basketball.
It's funny because you guys say Jordan had good help because of his team's defense, but the Cavs had higher-ranked defenses and infact saved Lebron in the 08' ECSF - if Lebron doesn't shoot a worst-ever 35%, the Cavs win that series easily (carried by their defense).
The high ranked defense that was 11th in the league that year?
See how easy it is to kill that idiotic narrative?
2nd options must be good scorers, or they're defensive role players
So Mo Williams was a defensive role player in 2009?
And Pippen's worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) proves that he couldn't handle the 2nd option scoring role.. So he was a defensive role player that was forced into a 2nd option role in the triangle..
In the very first season the Bulls won the championship, Pippen averaged 21 PPG on 50% shooting as the second option on offense in the playoffs. The following season: 19.5 PPG on 46% shooting. And then in the third season, 20 PPG on 46% shooting.
Using your own logic against you is telling everyone a different story here. Pippen was an excellent second option on offense for Jordan in the first three peat.
Without the triangle, he's a 14 ppg player (89' and 99')
That's really the best you have to offer to prove that argument? His second year in the league and a year where he was thrown onto a team with Barkley and Hakeem? This is why the forum thinks you're a ****ing clown.
2018 Celtics..... 55 wins... #7 SRS.. 1 all-star.. 3.6 net rating
1989 Cavs........ 57 wins.. #1 SRS.. 3 all-star.. 7.7 net rating
1989 Knicks..... 52 wins.. #8 SRS.. 2 all-star.. 3.7 net rating
It was pre-title Jordan and his sophomore low seed that beat the 89' Cavs, whereas Lebron was a veteran champion high seed when he beat the 18' Celtics.. And the best 2nd option in the conference (Love).. Love would've been a top 5 1st option in that conference.
Okay? And? Literally none of this proves my point wrong. The Celtics still played great in that series, including game 7. LeBron was just too great for them.
A carry-job is where you average 27 in the 96' Finals, while your sidekick averages a worst-ever 15.7 on 34% (worst performance for a winning sidekick in Finals history)...
Michael Jordan wasn't even the Bulls most important player in that series. Dennis Rodman was.
So Jordan averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick in every Finals, compared to 2-6 for Lebron.. Indeed, Jordan won with a true 2nd option that averaged far less, while Lebron had an elite 1st option sidekick (1b) to match him in scoring (share the load).... Night and day.. One guy was carrying his team, and the other guy had equal-scoring partners (shared load).
And yet LeBron did a lot more than just score. He ran the offense, played defense and rebounded. What did Irving do outside of scoring?
Once again, your argument has no merit.
And why do you keep repeating the bolded above???..
I watched the 09' ECF avidly - I watched all of Lebron's games up until 2011.. Then I stopped watching hoops altogether.
Because you very clearly didn't. You just got done trying to argue that Dwight Howard wasn't a match up problem at all for Cleveland in that series. Hell you didn't even get LeBron's defensive assignment correct. When you continue to talk about that series like you have any actual idea as to what happened in it and clearly didn't, I am going to continue to call you out on it.
I had realized the inherent flaw in Lebron's game, which also opened my eyes to his fraudulent methodology (stacking the deck because he lacks the skills to win organically, aka his ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win, aka he's a FRAUD)
The only fraud here is you. You continue to claim to possess knowledge of the game based on years of watching it when it's become perfectly clear at this point that you have only just recently started watching basketball.
I usually have no problem embarrassing morons like you. But all you've done up to this point is continue to repeat points and not do anything to back them up. So I'm going to take everyone else's advice here and stop wasting any further time on you
Vino24
08-13-2021, 06:15 PM
3ball getting yet another ass whooping
3ba11
08-13-2021, 07:25 PM
Prove it.
Each team is a link to the source:
91' Pistons (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1991.html).... #3 defense
91' Bulls (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html)....... #7 defense
93' Knicks (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYN/1993.html).... #1 defense
93' Bulls (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html)...... #7 defense
91' Lakers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1991.html).... #5 defense
91' Bulls (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html)...... #7 defense
92' Blazers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html).... #3 defense
92' Bulls (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html)....... #4 defense
^^^ that's 4 of 6 ECF and Finals opponnets who had better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls
this still doesn't prove the Cavs had the superior defense.
Holding opponents to less points per 100 possessions over 82 games means your defense was better - regular season DRtg is how defensive and offensive efficiency is measured..
Otoh, playoff DRtg is opponent-dependant and fluctuates widely based on whether the series was an offensive series or defensive series between those 2 particular teams.. hoops 101
3ba11
08-13-2021, 07:26 PM
Pippen literally locked down Magic Johnson in 91. Don't bullshit.
not as the primary defender.
Pippen guarded Magic for 5 quarters (and the last 4 minutes of Game 4), compared to Jordan's 15 quarters (and the Game 3 OT)
You should understand that Magic is normally guarded by SF's, so Jordan did Pippen's job for him... This was an automatic decision by Phil Jackson... Everyone knew that Magic was too big an assignment for Pippen at the outset of his first Finals, so the Bulls avoided another migraine meltdown by putting MJ on Magic - again, it was an AUTOMATIC assignement - no one considered putting Pippen on Magic to start the series..
And even after MJ got his 2nd foul in Game 2, everyone still thought (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s) MJ was the best defender on Magic, which is why he defended Magic for the vast majority of that seres.. Again, it's the greatest 2-way performance in history.
That's not normal for Worthy at all. That's well below what he was accustomed to getting as the second option
91' Worthy Regular Season'..... 20 on 48%
91' Worthy Finals................... 20 on 48%
Your point has no merit when LeBron was the clear cut top producer on the biggest stage of them all. It doesn't matter what happened beforehand.
So MJ was the top producer for the regular season, playoffs and Finals, but Lebron only the Finals?.... That's a double-standard that makes no sense... That's like saying Cedric Maxwell was the top producer on the 81' Celtics over Bird because he had a better Finals..
Again, Lebron never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer - AD led in most categories all year long.
Furthremore, Lebron only averaged 2-6 more than his sidekick in the Finals (shared load), while MJ led his sidekick by 10-20 (carry-job).. Lebron simply doesn't compare to MJ.
And once again, no it's not, because he did it without a super team in 2016 and he was the clear cut top producer in 2020.
* 3 perennial all-stars = super-team
* When you put 3 elite first options on one team, that's a super-team (big 3)
* Kyrie matched Lebron's scoring in the playoffs and Finals - it was a shared load.
* AD led the ENTIRE LEAGUE in playoff scoring - he was the scoring and win share leader all year for the Lakers (top producer)
Lebron never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer - this is statistical and historical fact
The high ranked defense that was 11th in the league that year?
The Cavs had the #4 defense in 2007, and the defending conference champs used this defense to compete with the 08' Celtics while Lebron had a worst-ever performance offensively..
facts gonna facts
See how easy it is to kill that idiotic narrative?
I'm killing you and educating you right now... And it's fun.
So Mo Williams was a defensive role player in 2009?
The 2009 and 2010 Cavs had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, and FAR more scorers - that's why they were 1 seeds, but Lebron left a year early and ceded the organic ring to Dirk.. What a dumbass decision that was.. It revealed his character and integrity (none)
His second year in the league and a year where he was thrown onto a team with Barkley and Hakeem?
Actually, Pippen was bad in the triangle during the 2nd three-peat too because he averaged 17.6 on 41% for entire 96-98' Playoffs, including numerous Finals and series of 15.7 on 40%..
So if you look at his entire playoff career, he was only viable in 91' or 92'... Let's look back:
* 88-90' was a trainwreck (16 on 42% in the 90' ECF and the goat choke, aka "migraine")...
* 94' was a massive choke in the 2nd Round and destroyed by Ewing (21.7 on 40%)...
* 95' saw Pippen average 19 on 40% in the 2nd Round, which caused loss..
* 96-98' saw Pippen average 17 on 41%...
* 99-03' saw Pippen average 11 ppg in the playoffs...
* 93' was the worst BPM ever for a winning sidekick and nearly the worst efficiency (TS), while being worse than 13' Wade across the board (PER,WS/48, VORP, BPM), and even 14' Wade (PER, WS/48, pace-adjusted scoring).
So Pippen was just a bad offensive player, which makes him a defensive role player.
Pippen was an excellent second option on offense for Jordan in the first three peat.
Pippen was okay in 91' and 92', although he nearly derailed the 3-peat in the 92' ECSF when he played like trash and was destroyed by X-man - the Bulls were expected to walk through New York, but Pippen's poor play caused the series to go 7 games.
The Celtics still played great in that series, including game 7. LeBron was just too great for them.
The point is that the Celtics weren't a good team - so 2018 was another Finals run like Iverson/Dwight/Kidd - Lebron has 2 of those, and the rest are super-team runs (stacked deck)...
Ultimately, the 00's East is the only conference in history that was won by a bunch of 1-star teams, yet that's the conference that Lebron formed a super-team in.. Even in 2018 after his super-team was gone, he still had the best 2nd option in the conference - super-teams can lose a star and still have a good 2-star team...
Michael Jordan wasn't even the Bulls most important player in that series. Dennis Rodman was.
Pippen averaged 15 on 34%, so how would the Bulls score without Jordan?... Otoh, Rodman's rebounding is replaceable, just like it was in 1997 playoffs when rodman only averaged 4/8 for the entire playoffs...
And Rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs, while getting another 4/8 in those Finals, so Rodman wasn't needed at all.. completely replaceable..
Otoh, Kemp destroyed Rodman in the 96' Finals, which is why Kemp nearly won FMVP from Jordan... It was Kemp that nearly won FMVP from Jordan because he was killing Rodman.. The voters occasionally goof though, so Rodman got a vote or two
What did Irving do outside of scoring?
Kyrie won the series:
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/d-aNve.gif
Ultimately, Jordan led a bunch of defensive role players to 6 titles (or at least 4 if you want to give pippen credit for 91' and 92', which were the only viable runs of his career, the debacle against X-man notwithstanding).
Because you very clearly didn't.
I watched the series avidly and cheered for Lebron.. I'm a former D1 player btw.. I didn't stop watching hoops until 2011 when I realized Lebron was a fraud along with his methodology (deck-stacking charade)...
Sportal
08-14-2021, 01:35 AM
Lebron had teammates match or lead him for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20') - MJ didn't and carried his team every single year in regular season, playoffs and Finals - MJ is the only player in history that did this
Let's see it then.
You also didn't answer this:
I bet 3iq didn't even watch the 2007 Finals, and is strictly just box score reviewing. But I legitimately remember the feeling(and watched the games) around the Cavs vs Magic and remember how the teams matched up.
3iq - you've openly said that the Lob City Clippers were better than Jordan's best Finals opponents, the Jazz... Should we discount those titles because at least the 2020 Miami Heat team made the Finals, unlike Lob City... Who never made the WCF?
Did you purposefully ignore this?
And you're a former D1 player...? Sure you are, you can be anything you want to be.
3ba11
08-14-2021, 02:12 AM
Let's see it then.
See what - see the stats showing that MJ averaged far more than his sidekick in every SERIES, while everyone else in history had teammates lead or match them for ENTIRE PLAYOFF RUNS?
You also didn't answer this:
Did you purposefully ignore this?
And you're a former D1 player...? Sure you are, you can be anything you want to be.
Jordan had no cast - that's the point - so it doesn't matter who the opponent was in the Finals - the opponent always had more supporting talent than the Bulls, except the Jazz.. But the Jazz had a long-term organic brand that destroyed Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (couldn't beat MJ tho)
And yeah, I played D1 alongside and against tons of NBA players.
Sportal
08-14-2021, 02:49 AM
See what - see the stats showing that MJ averaged far more than his sidekick in every SERIES, while everyone else in history had teammates lead or match them for ENTIRE PLAYOFF RUNS?
Jordan had no cast - that's the point - so it doesn't matter who the opponent was in the Finals - the opponent always had more supporting talent than the Bulls, except the Jazz.. But the Jazz had a long-term organic brand that destroyed Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (couldn't beat MJ tho)
And yeah, I played D1 alongside and against tons of NBA players.
You didn't really answer the question, you just dodged around it as always... The Jazz did not beat a 4 all-star Laker team lmao, and they beat Rookie Duncan. Just stop. Stop using those with your narrative.
3ba11
08-17-2021, 07:49 AM
You didn't really answer the question, you just dodged around it as always... The Jazz did not beat a 4 all-star Laker team lmao, and they beat Rookie Duncan. Just stop. Stop using those with your narrative.
Lakers had 4 all-stars in 1998 but were swept by the Jazz dumbass
LeBron has double the FMVPs as Kobe :biggums:
3bot destroyed.
3ba11
08-17-2021, 07:53 AM
LeBron has double the FMVPs as Kobe :biggums:
3bot destroyed.
Lebron went 3/7 with super-teams from 2011-2017 and then lost by record amount with a good 2-star team in 2018... Now he's 1/3 in the West and was lottery until AD made him champion
And Kobe never had choke like Lebron's 2011.. So we have to take away one of Lebron's rings to offset the 2011 choke that robbed a FMVP from Wade - so which ring should we take away?.. I say we take away 2013 since that was luck anyway and he was a net negative for the series (Heat lost with Lebron on the floor)
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