Replace Mo Williams with Wizard Jordan.

[Lebron23]

Do you think the Cavaliers wins the championship in 2009 and 2010??

[Axe]

He'll be retiring first before they can even clinch the playoffs.

[ScottieQuitting]

100%. Because then LeBron could play his natural Scottie Pippen role. Mike would chastise him and embarrass him, undress him with words, if LeBron was visibly quitting while ahead in a winnable series as he did in the 2010 Eastern conference semifinals against the Celtics

2002 39 year old Jordan before his knee injury was putting up 25/6/5 on good efficiency and had the Wiz dead set trajectory towards the playoffs.

Only other guy averaging those numbers, I think were Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant. Both of who were like 23 and 24 year olds. Mike was 15 years older than them.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Wally450]

100%. Because then LeBron could play his natural Scottie Pippen role. Mike would chastise him and embarrass him, undress him with words, if LeBron was visibly quitting while ahead in a winnable series as he did in the 2010 Eastern conference semifinals against the Celtics

When did lebron win a championship as a second option?

[ScottieQuitting]

When did lebron win a championship as a second option?
I mean it was a Mickey Mouse bubble chip, but 2020. Anthony Davis was clearly their best player all season and in the playoffs.

He would’ve won in 2011 as clear-cut sidekick, but he visibly either quit again, or got locked up by old Jason Kidd a midget milkman JJ Barea.

In 2016, Kyrie Irving was actually better than him offensively, but LeBron filled out the other counting stat sheets, because of a 6 inch height difference. Naturally getting more rebounds and facilitated more.

One could almost argue Kyrie as a co-alpha with him in that run. Scottie Pippen and Paul Gasol never equaled Michael or Kobe scoring output.

[8Ball]

Do you think the Cavaliers wins the championship in 2009 and 2010??

No. They win less games. Awful player in 2002 and 2003.

[Lebron23]

No. They win less games. Awful player in 2002 and 2003.

Hehehe

[8Ball]

100%. Because then LeBron could play his natural Scottie Pippen role. Mike would chastise him and embarrass him, undress him with words, if LeBron was visibly quitting while ahead in a winnable series as he did in the 2010 Eastern conference semifinals against the Celtics

2002 39 year old Jordan before his knee injury was putting up 25/6/5 on good efficiency and had the Wiz dead set trajectory towards the playoffs.

Only other guy averaging those numbers, I think were Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant. Both of who were like 23 and 24 year olds. Mike was 15 years older than them.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Mo williams is better than 2002 and 2003 Jordan.

Bron would trade Jordan by the deadline back to the wizards.

[tpols]

I mean Mo Williams shit the bed in those games. Assuming were talking wizards Jordan in his place they could've beat the magic and maybe the Celtics.

But then they'd still face the Final Boss ~ Kobe.

[ScottieQuitting]

I mean Mo Williams shit the bed in those games. Assuming were talking wizards Jordan in his place they could've beat the magic and maybe the Celtics.

But then they'd still face the Final Boss ~ Kobe.
Good thing final boss Kobe isn’t facing his superior version, IE 1991 - 1998 Jordan. :oldlol:

[tpols]

Good thing final boss Kobe isn’t facing his superior version, IE 1991 - 1998 Jordan. :oldlol:

But were talking wizards Jordan here. '09 Kobe would kill 2nd 3peat Jordan, much less wizards Jordan. Which would be a joke.

[ScottieQuitting]

But were talking wizards Jordan here. '09 Kobe would kill 2nd 3peat Jordan, much less wizards Jordan. Which would be a joke.
09 and 10 Kobe isn’t better than 2nd three peat Jordan

:roll: :roll: :roll:

2009 and 2010 Kobe:
27 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg on 46%

1996, 1997, and 1998 Jordan:
30 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg on 48%

Those numbers would be even greater in the 2009 and 2010 NBA. That late 90s. Was knock down, drag them out, defensive battles. And Mike was the better defender :oldlol:

And he would “kill” second three peat Jordan? Get off the meth.

I mean considering 39 and 40 year old Jordan on the wizards, when Kobe took him on as a defensive assignment, actually Mike outplayed him a few different games. That’s 23 and 24 year old Kobe.

And no I’m not talking about the 55 point game, where not a single basket was on Michael, in reality it was Stackhouse and Larry Hughes.

And that was Kobe at the peak of his athletic prowess. 30 and 31 year old Kobe slowed down some athletically. And it’s not like he was out there putting up all-time dominant performances every series. I specifically remember him struggling in the Rocket series, and against the Celtics in the 2010 finals. And that was going up against old Ray Allen.

Honestly, as much as I like Kobe, I actually would take a LeBron and Michael team over the Kobe and Gasol Lakers. Especially if Ron Artest and Aaron Brooks took them 7 games.

[SaintzFury13]

I mean Mo Williams shit the bed in those games. Assuming were talking wizards Jordan in his place they could've beat the magic and maybe the Celtics.

But then they'd still face the Final Boss ~ Kobe.

They aren't beating the Magic even with Jordan. Their biggest problem was that they didn't have anyone who stop Dwight Howard from ****ing them up inside. Andrew Bogut would have been more valuable to them that season than washed up Jordan.

[8Ball]

The real question is if Jordan makes it to the trade deadline before being shipped.

Yes or no?

[Bronbron23]

Do you think the Cavaliers wins the championship in 2009 and 2010??

No dude he was 40. How many 40 year olds in nba history were difference makers?

[8Ball]

I mean it was a Mickey Mouse bubble chip, but 2020. Anthony Davis was clearly their best player all season and in the playoffs.

He would’ve won in 2011 as clear-cut sidekick, but he visibly either quit again, or got locked up by old Jason Kidd a midget milkman JJ Barea.

In 2016, Kyrie Irving was actually better than him offensively, but LeBron filled out the other counting stat sheets, because of a 6 inch height difference. Naturally getting more rebounds and facilitated more.

One could almost argue Kyrie as a co-alpha with him in that run. Scottie Pippen and Paul Gasol never equaled Michael or Kobe scoring output.

You are a retard with awful takes.

Bron was 2nd in the MVP race. AD got zero 1st place votes.
Bron won finals MVP. AD got zero finals mvp votes.


And you are here claiming AD was best player.


You are a troll with zero beliefs. You don't even believe what you write. Pathetic.

[sdot_thadon]

100%. Because then LeBron could play his natural Scottie Pippen role. Mike would chastise him and embarrass him, undress him with words, if LeBron was visibly quitting while ahead in a winnable series as he did in the 2010 Eastern conference semifinals against the Celtics

2002 39 year old Jordan before his knee injury was putting up 25/6/5 on good efficiency and had the Wiz dead set trajectory towards the playoffs.

Only other guy averaging those numbers, I think were Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant. Both of who were like 23 and 24 year olds. Mike was 15 years older than them.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Smoking sausage as usual, I don't even think this needs be said but 09 and 10 Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>wizard's Mj. I mean we're talking about the same Mj that had be to given a charity starting spot in the allstar game am I right? Not to mention this is a year where the East is so terrible the top team and finals representative won 49 games, meanwhile old man Jordan gracefully bowed out the end of the regular season.....

And the previous season Mj in 02 didn't make it to the finish line he was injured for the season a few weeks out from the playoffs......

[3ba11]

Smoking sausage as usual, I don't even think this needs be said but 09 and 10 Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>wizard's Mj. I mean we're talking about the same Mj that had be to given a charity starting spot in the allstar game am I right? Not to mention this is a year where the East is so terrible the top team and finals representative won 49 games, meanwhile old man Jordan gracefully bowed out the end of the regular season.....

And the previous season Mj in 02 didn't make it to the finish line he was injured for the season a few weeks out from the playoffs......


Nah... 09' Lebron wasn't better than pre-injury Jordan in 2002.. lebron couldn't close and didn't know how to win (he still doesn't know how to win actually but I'll concede that 12-18' Lebron was better than pre-injury Wizards Jordan)

[sdot_thadon]

Nah... 09' Lebron wasn't better than pre-injury Jordan in 2002.. lebron couldn't close and didn't know how to win (he still doesn't know how to win actually but I'll concede that 12-18' Lebron was better than pre-injury Wizards Jordan)
You're smoking sausage with him, did he puff puff pass or what? You definitely weren't watching in 09. Lebron was closing games at an elite level then. But the media only magnifies game winners. He was almost in a class of his own with closing games with avalanches of back breaking plays in succession. I don't think he had quite grown into game winners at that point, but he was a hell of a closer those 2 years with his own flair. Remember closing games doesn't only happen on the last shot mainstream mike.

[ImKobe]

I mean Mo Williams shit the bed in those games. Assuming were talking wizards Jordan in his place they could've beat the magic and maybe the Celtics.

But then they'd still face the Final Boss ~ Kobe.

Game 6 vs Orlando

Mo - 17/3/5 50%FG 75%3PT
Delonte - 22/4/3/2/1 47.4%FG 66.7%3PT

LeBran - 25/7/7 40%FG 25%3PT

[Axe]

He'd be gassed out, rendering him useless frequently.

[3ba11]

You're smoking sausage with him, did he puff puff pass or what? You definitely weren't watching in 09. Lebron was closing games at an elite level then. But the media only magnifies game winners. He was almost in a class of his own with closing games with avalanches of back breaking plays in succession. I don't think he had quite grown into game winners at that point, but he was a hell of a closer those 2 years with his own flair. Remember closing games doesn't only happen on the last shot mainstream mike.


Yeah but Lebron's "closing" doesn't include elite jumpshooting skill, so he never got doubled and his buckets weren't assisted - he scored a bunch of unassisted drives that where the defense wasn't trying to get the ball out of his hands via double because they could just meet him at the rim with bodies..

His unasssited, undoubled buckets didn't elevate teammate role the way assisted buckets do - I'm not saying he should be bird-fed, but when Jordan closed, he didn't need to become this massive, predictable ball-dominator that plays a weak brand of repetitive drive-and-kicks...

Jordan closed better because he employed elite jumpshooting skill, which was partially-assisted and required doubles, so the ball still moved and the defense had to work harder (made more mistakes).. Ultimately, the team wasn't reduced to a shit, losing brand like Lebron-ball - that's why Jordan never lost to a team as shitty as Dwight's, while Lebron lost to 1-star teams with 1 seeds and super-teams (09', 11').. Like, this shit wasn't a fluke.. Lebron-ball simply yields losers most of time, regardless of cast or coach - he virtually never mostly wins, regardless of cast or coach.

[RRR3]

Nah... 09' Lebron wasn't better than pre-injury Jordan in 2002.. lebron couldn't close and didn't know how to win (he still doesn't know how to win actually but I'll concede that 12-18' Lebron was better than pre-injury Wizards Jordan)
How is this guy not permabanned?

[RRR3]

Game 6 vs Orlando

Mo - 17/3/5 50%FG 75%3PT
Delonte - 22/4/3/2/1 47.4%FG 66.7%3PT

LeBran - 25/7/7 40%FG 25%3PT
Imagine if you held Kobe to these standards lmao

[aj1987]

Game 6 vs Orlando

Mo - 17/3/5 50%FG 75%3PT
Delonte - 22/4/3/2/1 47.4%FG 66.7%3PT

LeBran - 25/7/7 40%FG 25%3PT

Post them stats for the other games, you cherry picking autistic loser. :cheers:

[ImKobe]

Post them stats for the other games, you cherry picking autistic loser. :cheers:

They played single coverage on him and he still couldn't win. Imagine if Kobe was given single coverage and didn't constantly have to bail his offense out. Also, I've reported you for your hostile remarks.

[aj1987]

They played single coverage on him and he still couldn't win. Imagine if Kobe was given single coverage and didn't constantly have to bail his offense out. Also, I've reported you for your hostile remarks.


LMAO! Yeah, Brick was just taking 25 shots a game while Shaq was getting triple teamed and cost them multiple championships.


Also, you have not watched a minute of that series.

Again, post them stats from the other games, you cherry picking retard. :cheers:

[Lebron23]

LeBron averaged almost 39 ppg in that series. Jordan deferred to Jerry Stackhouse in 2003. I am sure he's going to be a willing 2nd scoring option for LeBron.

[Axe]

They played single coverage on him and he still couldn't win. Imagine if Kobe was given single coverage and didn't constantly have to bail his offense out. Also, I've reported you for your hostile remarks.
:oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

They played single coverage on him and he still couldn't win. Imagine if Kobe was given single coverage and didn't constantly have to bail his offense out. Also, I've reported you for your hostile remarks.

You want to play back game 6 and figure out whether the single coverage defense is true?

[FKAri]

Nah... 09' Lebron wasn't better than pre-injury Jordan in 2002..
Nah... 91' Jordan wasn't better than pre-puberty Lebron in... 1991

[ImKobe]

LMAO! Yeah, Brick was just taking 25 shots a game while Shaq was getting triple teamed and cost them multiple championships.


Also, you have not watched a minute of that series.

Again, post them stats from the other games, you cherry picking retard. :cheers:


“We didn’t ever change our principles, whether it was Hedo or Pietrus guarding him. We were coming to help, we weren’t leaving people on an island, but we weren’t going to double-team LeBron, we weren’t blitzing his pick-and-rolls, we were not double-teaming him in the post or in his back-ins. That’s tough on the guys guarding him, and I’m sure they wanted a few more double-teams, but that’s the way we’d played him for two years and had success.” The Magic won the series 4-2, but Van Gundy said it probably would have been a sweep if they had double-teamed James on one shot: his famous buzzer-beating 3-pointer in Game 2. Van Gundy regrets not drawing up a defense in which the defender of the inbounds pass ran to James.

You were saying?

[RRR3]

Poor ImRetarded :(

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah but Lebron's "closing" doesn't include elite jumpshooting skill, so he never got doubled and his buckets weren't assisted - he scored a bunch of unassisted drives that where the defense wasn't trying to get the ball out of his hands via double because they could just meet him at the rim with bodies..

Yeah so I'm pretty convinced you have not a single clue what the eff you're talking about here....
Never got doubled? You do realize that getting doubled and finding the open man has been a staple of Lebron's game and greatness since ever right?



His unasssited, undoubled buckets didn't elevate teammate role the way assisted buckets do - I'm not saying he should be bird-fed, but when Jordan closed, he didn't need to become this massive, predictable ball-dominator that plays a weak brand of repetitive drive-and-kicks...
Drive and kicks are what he was among the best ever at, so why wouldn't he? Just like Mj was a great mid range shooter and scorer so he did just that. Cmon man you just sound retarded at this point.



Jordan closed better because he employed elite jumpshooting skill, which was partially-assisted and required doubles, so the ball still moved and the defense had to work harder (made more mistakes).. Ultimately, the team wasn't reduced to a shit, losing brand like Lebron-ball - that's why Jordan never lost to a team as shitty as Dwight's, while Lebron lost to 1-star teams with 1 seeds and super-teams (09', 11').. Like, this shit wasn't a fluke.. Lebron-ball simply yields losers most of time, regardless of cast or coach - he virtually never mostly wins, regardless of cast or coach. Let's see, Dwight's 1 star team had 2 all stars that year to the Cavs one in Lebron. And were good enough for 4th best record in the league, better than any western conference team not named the Lakers.....

And of course Mj never lost to a team as "shitty" as the 09 Magic, however he did fail to make the postseason 2 years in a row in an infinitely worse east.

[HoopsNY]

They aren't beating the Magic even with Jordan. Their biggest problem was that they didn't have anyone who stop Dwight Howard from ****ing them up inside. Andrew Bogut would have been more valuable to them that season than washed up Jordan.

Depends on how you look at it. I tend to look at playoff series in their turning points. Game 4, Orlando wins by 2 points in a nail biter. Mo Williams shot 5-15 (33%) in that game, including 0-2 with 0 points in the 4th quarter and 0 points in OT.

I doubt MJ does that, and winning that game brings the series to 2-2. Does this mean that Cleveland wins the series? Maybe or maybe not. But I do think MJ provides better support and defensive abilities, even at 39.

[3ba11]

Depends on how you look at it. I tend to look at playoff series in their turning points. Game 4, Orlando wins by 2 points in a nail biter. Mo Williams shot 5-15 (33%) in that game, including 0-2 with 0 points in the 4th quarter and 0 points in OT.

I doubt MJ does that, and winning that game brings the series to 2-2. Does this mean that Cleveland wins the series? Maybe or maybe not. But I do think MJ provides better support and defensive abilities, even at 39.


Lebron wet the bed in that OT too, while Dwight dominated.. If Lebron makes another shot or 2 in that OT, the Cavs win... But again, he wet the bed, while Dwight dominated the OT

Lebron lost 3 fourth quarter leads in that series because he shot like dogshit in the 4th

[Smoke117]

Nah... 09' Lebron wasn't better than pre-injury Jordan in 2002.. lebron couldn't close and didn't know how to win (he still doesn't know how to win actually but I'll concede that 12-18' Lebron was better than pre-injury Wizards Jordan)

LMFAO...:roll: :roll: This has to be your most insane/ludicrous/retarded take ever.

[3ba11]

Yeah so I'm pretty convinced you have not a single clue what the eff you're talking about here....
Never got doubled? You do realize that getting doubled and finding the open man has been a staple of Lebron's game and greatness since ever right?





https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif


Teams meet penetrators at the rim with multiple bodies or a "wall" in the paint, and therefore don't need to overtly double them on the perimeter..

The only players that require getting the ball out of their hands via overt doubles are post players or jumpshooters that frequently get hot - they require double teams if they hit a couple jumpers in a row, so they don't go on 8-0 personal runs or get the whole team galvanized to start raining down jumpers - it's contagious.. monkey see, monkey do.

Accordingly, Lebron's lack of elite jumpshooting skill allowed Stan Van Gundy to not double him in that series (here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?466601-SVG-We-let-Lebron-play-1on1-in-the-09-series-we-were-fine-giving-him-points-stats)) and Kerr didn't double Lebron either (above).

Teams don't double Lebron because he isn't a lethal enough jumpshooter/scorer to make it worthwhile - it's better to let him over-dribble than double him and see the ball move... Otoh, when Kobe or MJ hit a couple jumpers in a row, the opposing coach would call timeout and start doubling them.. Curry sometimes sees this kind of coverage too because he can pop off and make it worth taking the risk of double-teaming.. Lebron isn't worth the risk because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill.

Btw, double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball, as Lebron says here, so literally anyone can find the open man or initiate ball movement by passing out of a double-team.. You or I would initiate ball movement or even find the open man if we were doubled - it's one of the easiest things to do in basketball (pass out of a double-team)... But again, Lebron doesn't get doubled on the NBA level.





Drive and kicks are what he was among the best ever at, so why wouldn't he?





Yes, Lebron must play to his strength, but that's the point - his strength/style is an inferior way to play because it's less effective at winning than Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill (closing), off-ball aka ball movement/high assist teams, pure scoring ability, or commanding double-teams.

Drive-and-kicks are ball-dominant and predictable - the ball doesn't move while teammates are reduced to spot-up roles and underperform their true capacity.. Otoh, Jordan's scores were partially-assisted, which elevated teammates to their true capacity and allowed a superior brand of ball movement that won more against the best teams and was more effective down the stretch of games.






Let's see, Dwight's 1 star team had 2 all stars that year to the Cavs one in Lebron.





^^^ that's false - Rashard Lewis and Mo Williams were both all-stars in 2009...

So Dwight and his 1 fringe all-star teammate (lewis) beat Lebron and his 2 fringe all-star teammates (Mo, Zydrunas)... Orlando was one of the biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series (here (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/19/21374534/biggest-playoff-upsets-nba-history))






And of course Mj never lost to a team as "shitty" as the 09 Magic, however he did fail to make the postseason 2 years in a row in an infinitely worse east.





He was 40, so that isn't an argument.. If Lebron is making the playoffs with lottery squads at 40, then you'll have a point... But he already missed the playoffs at 35 years old in 2019, until AD made him champion in 2020.

[HoopsNY]

LMFAO...:roll: :roll: This has to be your most insane/ludicrous/retarded take ever.

It's 3ball, what do you expect. 2009 LeBron is one of the greatest players of all-time. pre-injury 2001 MJ is something comparable to Khris Middleton. There is no comparison.

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ claiming Big Z was a fringe all-star in 09'.

If that's true, then the same could be said for Horace Grant from 89-93.

[ShawkFactory]

LOL @ claiming Big Z was a fringe all-star in 09'.

If that's true, then the same could be said for Horace Grant from 89-93.

Lol yea he was playing 27 minutes a game.

He was closer to being out of the league than his last all star appearance

[Smoke117]

LOL @ claiming Big Z was a fringe all-star in 09'.

If that's true, then the same could be said for Horace Grant from 89-93.

Amusing how in 3balls world Z's a borderline all star while Grant is garbage who contributed nothing (just like every other bull to this moron) to the bulls championships despite being better than Ilgauskas in 09.

[sdot_thadon]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif

Teams meet penetrators at the rim with multiple bodies or a "wall" in the paint, and therefore don't need to overtly double them on the perimeter..

The only players that require getting the ball out of their hands via overt doubles are post players or jumpshooters that frequently get hot - they require double teams if they hit a couple jumpers in a row, so they don't go on 8-0 personal runs or get the whole team galvanized to start raining down jumpers - it's contagious.. monkey see, monkey do.

Accordingly, Lebron's lack of elite jumpshooting skill allowed Stan Van Gundy to not double him in that series (here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?466601-SVG-We-let-Lebron-play-1on1-in-the-09-series-we-were-fine-giving-him-points-stats)) and Kerr didn't double Lebron either (above).

Teams don't double Lebron because he isn't a lethal enough jumpshooter/scorer to make it worthwhile - it's better to let him over-dribble than double him and see the ball move... Otoh, when Kobe or MJ hit a couple jumpers in a row, the opposing coach would call timeout and start doubling them.. Curry sometimes sees this kind of coverage too because he can pop off and make it worth taking the risk of double-teaming.. Lebron isn't worth the risk because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill.

Btw, double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball, as Lebron says here, so literally anyone can find the open man or initiate ball movement by passing out of a double-team.. You or I would initiate ball movement or even find the open man if we were doubled - it's one of the easiest things to do in basketball (pass out of a double-team)... But again, Lebron doesn't get doubled on the NBA level.

Shouldn't really have to explain this but ok. Teams learned early on it was idiocy to double Lebron on the catch or away from the basket because he'd just pick you apart and give his less talented teammates super easy opportunities to score. So they zone and shade and send help as he's hitting the paint because that's where you stand the best chance of forcing an error. What a player like Lebron loves to see is a hard double, he was literally engineered to destroy those. A scorer like Mj or Kobe on the other hand you already know what they want to do so you just attempt to take that one option away.....and you think Lebron is predictable lol. And again the book on Lebron had always been, give him anything but the paint, because that's where he's the most devastating.



Yes, Lebron must play to his strength, but that's the point - his strength/style is an inferior way to play because it's less effective at winning than Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill (closing), off-ball aka ball movement/high assist teams, pure scoring ability, or commanding double-teams.

Drive-and-kicks are ball-dominant and predictable - the ball doesn't move while teammates are reduced to spot-up roles and underperform their true capacity.. Otoh, Jordan's scores were partially-assisted, which elevated teammates to their true capacity and allowed a superior brand of ball movement that won more against the best teams and was more effective down the stretch of games.
This exact predictable style is the same one that put up a goat level comeback against a team the won more games than MJ's Bulls ever did. Btw the half hearted description of drive and kick doesn't really do many favors to the cerebral nature of Lebron's game either.


^^^ that's false - Rashard Lewis and Mo Williams were both all-stars in 2009...

So Dwight and his 1 fringe all-star teammate (lewis) beat Lebron and his 2 fringe all-star teammates (Mo, Zydrunas)... Orlando was one of the biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series (here (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/19/21374534/biggest-playoff-upsets-nba-history))

Took the bait.
I knew you had no clue wtf you were talking about. Mo Willaims was an injury replacement who whined and campaigned because he wasn't an allstar that season. And just for kicks Jameer Nelson was also an injury replacement allstar that same season. So Orlando actually had 3 guys suit up in the allstar game. And if you actually followed the Cavs that season you wouldn't have had the Magic as an underdog in that matchup. The problems they posed were very clear during the regular season matchups, but that's something for guys who actually watch games....



He was 40, so that isn't an argument.. If Lebron is making the playoffs with lottery squads at 40, then you'll have a point... But he already missed the playoffs at 35 years old in 2019, until AD made him champion in 2020.
The point is you mean to tell me the goat shouldn't have been expected to be able to at least make the post season in the weakest east ever with 2 shots at it? I mean with his superior brand of basketball he should have easily walked through the worst east ever.

[Axe]

Seriously idk why you freaks still have to engage with him. It's futile.

[SaintzFury13]

Depends on how you look at it. I tend to look at playoff series in their turning points. Game 4, Orlando wins by 2 points in a nail biter. Mo Williams shot 5-15 (33%) in that game, including 0-2 with 0 points in the 4th quarter and 0 points in OT.

I doubt MJ does that, and winning that game brings the series to 2-2. Does this mean that Cleveland wins the series? Maybe or maybe not. But I do think MJ provides better support and defensive abilities, even at 39.

Oh I absolutely agree that Jordan gives them a better chance than Mo Williams. But Cleveland still doesn't win the series even with Jordan. At best, they are able to defend the perimeter shooting a lot better, but as long as they don't have an answer for Dwight Howard (and Jordan isn't that answer), they aren't winning that series.

[SaintzFury13]

If this thread has proven anything to me, it's that 80% of the people on this forum didn't even watch the Cavs/Magic series in 09.

[3ba11]

If this thread has proven anything to me, it's that 80% of the people on this forum didn't even watch the Cavs/Magic series in 09.


The Magic were one of the biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series - Lebron simply choked by slanking his defensive duties and losing 3 fourth quarter leads, while generally playing like trash when it mattered and employing an inferior brand that Stan Van Gundy exploited.. so OF COURSE wizards jordan would win in Mo's place.. he would beat the magic in lebron's place.

Ultimately, Lebron and his 2 fringe all-star teammates lost to Dwight and his 1 fringe all-star teammate as a massive favorite.. Only Lebron loses to 1-star teams with super-teams and 1 seeds because he sucks compared to MJ or Kobe... Lebron's winning is pathetic given his super-teams and 1 seeds - anyone else would have "not 6, not 7" like Lebron was supposed to have

People think that a big guy dribbling around is the best skillset - it isn't - it's a simpleton skillset that every playground king in America uses - go to any playground in America and the playground king is a ball-dominator - it's the easiest way to play, and the most losing way that requires super-teams and colluding by the league to manufacture rings

[HoopsNY]

Oh I absolutely agree that Jordan gives them a better chance than Mo Williams. But Cleveland still doesn't win the series even with Jordan. At best, they are able to defend the perimeter shooting a lot better, but as long as they don't have an answer for Dwight Howard (and Jordan isn't that answer), they aren't winning that series.

Yea, you might be right, though I will say that perimeter defense is one of the big reasons they lost. MJ would have absolutely given that, together with help defense.

The Magic hit 62 threes in that series on 41%. That number probably drops a bit with MJ on the perimeter as his instincts were very solid in 2002. I remember watching his first pre-season game in 2001 (I think it was against New Jersey), and he was not phased at all by head fakes on the perimeter, even when chasing the offensive player down. His instincts were still very much there.

[FireDavidKahn]

I mean it was a Mickey Mouse bubble chip, but 2020. Anthony Davis was clearly their best player all season and in the playoffs.

He would’ve won in 2011 as clear-cut sidekick, but he visibly either quit again, or got locked up by old Jason Kidd a midget milkman JJ Barea.

In 2016, Kyrie Irving was actually better than him offensively, but LeBron filled out the other counting stat sheets, because of a 6 inch height difference. Naturally getting more rebounds and facilitated more.

One could almost argue Kyrie as a co-alpha with him in that run. Scottie Pippen and Paul Gasol never equaled Michael or Kobe scoring output.

LeGOAT was clearly better in the Finals. Not even a contest.

[Axe]

When he's on a team filled mostly with bunch of scrubs, he managed to look like their mightiest carrying machine.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron was a 2x bronze medal winner by then.

[3ba11]

LeGOAT was clearly better in the Finals. Not even a contest.


The Lakers could get away with Lebron-ball in the Finals becuase they faced a trash team - Lebron-ball does well against trash teams.. But in the real Finals against Denver and the rest of the playoffs or regular season, it was AD-ball

AD led in PPG and win shares all year, so Lebron never won without a super-team as the clear-cut top producer (which is pathetic and not top 10)...

And he never carried a team to a title like MJ, because his sidekicks were always within 5 points of him or matched him for playoff runs and Finals, while MJ always averaged 10-30 more than his sidekick (6 carry-job rings)

[ImKobe]

Shouldn't really have to explain this but ok. Teams learned early on it was idiocy to double Lebron on the catch or away from the basket because he'd just pick you apart and give his less talented teammates super easy opportunities to score. So they zone and shade and send help as he's hitting the paint because that's where you stand the best chance of forcing an error. What a player like Lebron loves to see is a hard double, he was literally engineered to destroy those. A scorer like Mj or Kobe on the other hand you already know what they want to do so you just attempt to take that one option away.....and you think Lebron is predictable lol. And again the book on Lebron had always been, give him anything but the paint, because that's where he's the most devastating.


This exact predictable style is the same one that put up a goat level comeback against a team the won more games than MJ's Bulls ever did. Btw the half hearted description of drive and kick doesn't really do many favors to the cerebral nature of Lebron's game either.

Took the bait.
I knew you had no clue wtf you were talking about. Mo Willaims was an injury replacement who whined and campaigned because he wasn't an allstar that season. And just for kicks Jameer Nelson was also an injury replacement allstar that same season. So Orlando actually had 3 guys suit up in the allstar game. And if you actually followed the Cavs that season you wouldn't have had the Magic as an underdog in that matchup. The problems they posed were very clear during the regular season matchups, but that's something for guys who actually watch games....


The point is you mean to tell me the goat shouldn't have been expected to be able to at least make the post season in the weakest east ever with 2 shots at it? I mean with his superior brand of basketball he should have easily walked through the worst east ever.

Kobe and MJ burned teams when they got doubled as well. It resulted in some great Playoff moments. Most of the big shots their teammates made were thanks to them anticipating the double & passing out of it to create a wide open look. Lebron's a great passer & all but so were Kobe and MJ, but they played a different style of basketball (they weren't as ball-dominant & operated out of the post in the later stages of their careers).

As far as the Wizards stuff goes, they were on pace to make the Playoffs before MJ's injury in '02, he was never the same after his knee injury.

[SaintzFury13]

The Magic were one of the biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series - Lebron simply choked by slanking his defensive duties and losing 3 fourth quarter leads, while generally playing like trash when it mattered and employing an inferior brand that Stan Van Gundy exploited.. so OF COURSE wizards jordan would win in Mo's place.. he would beat the magic in lebron's place.

Ultimately, Lebron and his 2 fringe all-star teammates lost to Dwight and his 1 fringe all-star teammate as a massive favorite.. Only Lebron loses to 1-star teams with super-teams and 1 seeds because he sucks compared to MJ or Kobe... Lebron's winning is pathetic given his super-teams and 1 seeds - anyone else would have "not 6, not 7" like Lebron was supposed to have

People think that a big guy dribbling around is the best skillset - it isn't - it's a simpleton skillset that every playground king in America uses - go to any playground in America and the playground king is a ball-dominator - it's the easiest way to play, and the most losing way that requires super-teams and colluding by the league to manufacture rings

You just gave me a post consisting of narratives you've stated numerous times now that have already been debunked. You've already basically told us that you've never once watched that series. Your opinion on the matter holds no merit.

[SaintzFury13]

Yea, you might be right, though I will say that perimeter defense is one of the big reasons they lost. MJ would have absolutely given that, together with help defense.

The Magic hit 62 threes in that series on 41%. That number probably drops a bit with MJ on the perimeter as his instincts were very solid in 2002. I remember watching his first pre-season game in 2001 (I think it was against New Jersey), and he was not phased at all by head fakes on the perimeter, even when chasing the offensive player down. His instincts were still very much there.

The problem wasn't even the fact that they didn't necessarily have guys to guard the perimeter players. They didn't, but that wasn't their main downfall. If they had an Andrew Bynum to provide single coverage to Dwight, they would have at the very least had a better opportunity to defend the three pointers a lot better. Cleveland's bigs were not built to deal with someone like Howard. The only guy who had the height to was Z, and he was far too brittle and lean to be able to deal with Howard's physical style of play. He constantly bullied him every single time he got the ball to the point where they had no choice but to double team.

Keep in mind that even with all of this happening, three of the six games in this series were very close. But Orlando most likely would have changed up their style of play and would have continued to go with Howard inside instead of destroying Cleveland on the perimeter. Granted, that's less points, but that puts a lot of Cleveland's bigs in foul trouble at the same time. I just don't see a scenario unless Cleveland has better bigs where they come out on top in that series.

[Axe]

You just gave me a post consisting of narratives you've stated numerous times now that have already been debunked. You've already basically told us that you've never once watched that series. Your opinion on the matter holds no merit.
You are taking him way too seriously. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

You just gave me a post consisting of narratives you've stated numerous times now that have already been debunked. You've already basically told us that you've never once watched that series. Your opinion on the matter holds no merit.

How can you debunk the underdog part? They were bigger underdogs than the Pistons in the '04 Finals. They had a great team but were missing Jameer Nelson, who was their all-star point guard. So they were the lower seed & down one of their 2 best players & still won.

[Sportal]

How can you debunk the underdog part? They were bigger underdogs than the Pistons in the '04 Finals. They had a great team but were missing Jameer Nelson, who was their all-star point guard. So they were the lower seed & down one of their 2 best players & still won.

Yeah... But I still remember thinking that this is not a good match-up for the Cavs. Magic had better shooters, better floor spacing, better teamwork... It was clearly not going to be an easy series.

[Gohan]

He'll be retiring first before they can even clinch the playoffs.

Cmon axe youre better than this

[SaintzFury13]

How can you debunk the underdog part? They were bigger underdogs than the Pistons in the '04 Finals. They had a great team but were missing Jameer Nelson, who was their all-star point guard. So they were the lower seed & down one of their 2 best players & still won.

First off, no they weren't (to the Pistons part). Second, it didn't matter if they were missing Jameer Nelson. They still had their taller three point shooting perimeter players and Dwight Howard. That was all they needed to have a chance to beat Cleveland. Third, I never once stated that Orlando wasn't the underdog in that series. They absolutely were. You didn't need to watch the series back then to know that Cleveland was heavily favored to beat Orlando. But the problem with this statement is that it had a lot more to do with media narratives than with legitimate experts who watched both teams play all year stating Cleveland was going to win. Because guess what? A lot of people pointed out that Orlando had legitimate match up advantages over Cleveland, and that this wasn't going to be as easy of a series for them as the previous two. Orlando won the regular season series 2-1, and hell, Rashard Lewis didn't even play in one of the games Orlando won. Anyone who actually paid attention to these two teams knew this wasn't going to be an easy series for Cleveland, and if anyone could beat them, it would be Orlando. It's just like what happened in 2007 with Dallas and Golden State, when everyone who didn't pay attention to the regular season expected Dallas to win, even though they were 0-3 against Golden State in the regular season due to, you guessed it, match up problems.

3ball trying to tell me that LeBron being forced to guard Courtney Lee is basically him admitting he never watched the series, since that wasn't even Cleveland's biggest problem in that series, and that isn't even who LeBron spent most of the series guarding. I am going to acknowledge the underdog part, I am going to acknowledge that this was still Cleveland's series to lose, but I am also going to call out someone who clearly did not watch the series when they try to use it like it's a knock on LeBron. He's the only reason the series didn't end in a sweep in the first place.

[sdot_thadon]

How can you debunk the underdog part? They were bigger underdogs than the Pistons in the '04 Finals. They had a great team but were missing Jameer Nelson, who was their all-star point guard. So they were the lower seed & down one of their 2 best players & still won.
Probably would involve actually watching some games in the 2009 season....

[Axe]

Cmon axe youre better than this
Huh? What is it piccolo loverboy?

[3ba11]

The Magic had a great team





^^^^ that's just a revisionist history LIE

The Magic only won 59 games with Jameer Nelson.. That's less than the 66-win Cavs.

The Cavs were the ones with the great team and a developing organic brand - they had a better-ranked defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls and a sidekick with superior offense to 90' Pippen across the board - that's more than enough to beat the 1-star Magic with HCA...

Although that assumes Lebron is in Jordan's orbit, which is isn't, hence the loss.. It wasn't a fluke or one-off - Lebron lost to another 1-star team in 2011, this time with a SUPER-TEAM - at what point must we concede that Lebron's brand is suboptimal and yields underwhelming teams?

[Smoke117]

^^^^ that's just a revisionist history LIE

The Magic only won 59 games with Jameer Nelson.. That's less than the 66-win Cavs.

The Cavs were the ones with the great team and a developing organic brand - they had a better-ranked defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls and a sidekick with superior offense to 90' Pippen across the board - that's more than enough to beat the 1-star Magic with HCA...

Although that assumes Lebron is in Jordan's orbit, which is isn't, hence the loss.. It wasn't a fluke or one-off - Lebron lost to another 1-star team in 2011, this time with a SUPER-TEAM - at what point must we concede that Lebron's brand is suboptimal and yields underwhelming teams?

The Magic also had Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu, dumb shit.

[ImKobe]

First off, no they weren't (to the Pistons part). Second, it didn't matter if they were missing Jameer Nelson. They still had their taller three point shooting perimeter players and Dwight Howard. That was all they needed to have a chance to beat Cleveland. Third, I never once stated that Orlando wasn't the underdog in that series. They absolutely were. You didn't need to watch the series back then to know that Cleveland was heavily favored to beat Orlando. But the problem with this statement is that it had a lot more to do with media narratives than with legitimate experts who watched both teams play all year stating Cleveland was going to win. Because guess what? A lot of people pointed out that Orlando had legitimate match up advantages over Cleveland, and that this wasn't going to be as easy of a series for them as the previous two. Orlando won the regular season series 2-1, and hell, Rashard Lewis didn't even play in one of the games Orlando won. Anyone who actually paid attention to these two teams knew this wasn't going to be an easy series for Cleveland, and if anyone could beat them, it would be Orlando. It's just like what happened in 2007 with Dallas and Golden State, when everyone who didn't pay attention to the regular season expected Dallas to win, even though they were 0-3 against Golden State in the regular season due to, you guessed it, match up problems.

3ball trying to tell me that LeBron being forced to guard Courtney Lee is basically him admitting he never watched the series, since that wasn't even Cleveland's biggest problem in that series, and that isn't even who LeBron spent most of the series guarding. I am going to acknowledge the underdog part, I am going to acknowledge that this was still Cleveland's series to lose, but I am also going to call out someone who clearly did not watch the series when they try to use it like it's a knock on LeBron. He's the only reason the series didn't end in a sweep in the first place.

They were at +550 (Pistons were +500 in '04). Jameer was their 2nd best player by advanced metrics and also their most efficient 3PT shooter at over 45% with over 4 attempts a game, he was a 50/45/89 guy that season, losing him to injury was a blow for the team as they were on pace to win 62+ games with him on the court, 32 - 9 record if you don't account for the game he got injured in mid-way so that's a 64-win pace, which is right there with the Lakers & Cavs.

Magic had the size advantage on the perimeter and the Cavs had no answer for Dwight, which is why they lost the series, on top of SVG's strategy of not doubling Lebron & letting him score 40 every game as long as his teammates didn't get open looks from 3 all game as the Cavs were among the best shooting teams as well but struggled in that series.

They won because both Dwight & the shooters went off while the Cavs didn't make 3s as well as they could in the RS. Lewis & Pietrus both shot 47+% from 3.

[3ba11]

The Magic also had Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu, dumb shit.


So Hedo is the difference now?... Please recite for me his accolades like you do Pippen.. I'll wait.

Lebron lost because he isn't the genius basketball player everyone thinks he is - he employs a shit ball-dominator brand that gets destroyed just like every other ball-dominator in history before they got a super-team

I don't see you making excuses for Nash, Wall, or CP3's many losses like you do pre-decision Lebron - they're all bummy ball-dominators that lose without super-teams.. and Lebron still mostly loses WITH super-teams.. the guy is just a bum and complete fraud.

[Smoke117]

So Hedo is the difference now?... Please recite for me his accolades like you do Pippen.. I'll wait.

Lebron lost because he isn't the genius basketball player everyone thinks he is - he employs a shit ball-dominator brand that gets destroyed just like every other ball-dominator in history before they got a super-team

I don't see you making excuses for Nash, Wall, or CP3's many losses like you do pre-decision Lebron - they're all bummy ball-dominators that lose without super-teams.. and Lebron still mostly loses WITH super-teams.. the guy is just a bum and complete fraud.

1-9

[SaintzFury13]

They were at +550 (Pistons were +500 in '04).

I see...

Alright, I'll give you that one.


Jameer was their 2nd best player by advanced metrics and also their most efficient 3PT shooter at over 45% with over 4 attempts a game, he was a 50/45/89 guy that season, losing him to injury was a blow for the team as they were on pace to win 62+ games with him on the court, 32 - 9 record if you don't account for the game he got injured in mid-way so that's a 64-win pace, which is right there with the Lakers & Cavs.

I'm not denying Jameer's impact to the team. My point is simply that it does not matter who the Magic have playing at PG. Against LA it's a different story due to the Lakers having legitimate answers to Howard down low.


Magic had the size advantage on the perimeter and the Cavs had no answer for Dwight, which is why they lost the series, on top of SVG's strategy of not doubling Lebron & letting him score 40 every game as long as his teammates didn't get open looks from 3 all game as the Cavs were among the best shooting teams as well but struggled in that series.

They won because both Dwight & the shooters went off while the Cavs didn't make 3s as well as they could in the RS. Lewis & Pietrus both shot 47+% from 3.

Absolutely all of this in a nut shell. Glad we are in agreement on this.

[Axe]

They were at +550 (Pistons were +500 in '04).
Funny how some people highly value these pre-season/pre-finals odds. Guys like thurston (tpots) and TheGoatest are great fans of these laughable shit when they don't talk about the whole picture oftentimes..

[FKAri]

Nah... 09' Lebron wasn't better than pre-injury Jordan in 2002
:oldlol:

[RRR3]

:oldlol:
That might actually be the most insane thing he’s ever said.

[3ba11]

Funny how some people highly value these pre-season/pre-finals odds. Guys like thurston (tpots) and TheGoatest are great fans of these laughable shit when they don't talk about the whole picture oftentimes..


Cut the crap - i watched the 09' Playoffs avidly... The Cavs were expected to waltz right through the Magic

But no one knew that Lebron wasn't going to defend his position and no one knew his ball-dominant brand was supoptimal for the playoffs - the 09' ECF was the first cracks in the armor of Lebron (because we all gave him a pass for his playoff debacles in the 07' Finals or 08' ECSF - I honestly didn't know he played so horribly in those series until years later when I started posting on bball forums and had to research his stats)

[sdot_thadon]

Cut the crap - i watched the 09' Playoffs avidly... The Cavs were expected to waltz right through the Magic

But no one knew that Lebron wasn't going to defend his position and no one knew his ball-dominant brand was supoptimal for the playoffs - the 09' ECF was the first cracks in the armor of Lebron (because we all gave him a pass for his playoff debacles in the 07' Finals or 08' ECSF - I honestly didn't know he played so horribly in those series until years later when I started posting on bball forums and had to research his stats)

The playoffs weren't the only thing that would inform you on this matchup. The regular season games were a pretty good preview of how tough the series would be. The odds going into the series were pretty much based on the cavs wrecking 2 teams they were supposed to and Nelson being out.

The most obvious shit that happened was Dwight was too fast for Big Z so anytime he was on him he'd go right by Z and finish. If Andy was in the game he'd just overpower him down low because Andy wasn't as strong as he would be in later years. So those were the 2 options guarding him. He had his way with either. And we can throw Ben in the but we knew he was more or less done at that point.

Not to mention Andy started every game that series so that meant at Pf he was guarding who? Hedo or Lewis, 2 guys that would fly by him the instant he looked at them lol. Ben Wallace rotates in and for whatever reason is holding lewis or hedo as well sometimes. West was far too small to deter the jump shooting of 2 6'10 wings. I agree lebron should have been on one of the 2 and maybe been able to erase one, but Mike Brown was the coach. The one you call a great coach correct? The plan seemed to be to put Lebron on Lee and Alston so he could roam and help with the others, it backfired obviously. This is all without even considering that Mo shat the bed in the series. The Cavs were 0-5 in Orlando that season overall. 1-2 vs the Magic in the regular season.

[3ba11]

The playoffs weren't the only thing that would inform you on this matchup. The regular season games were a pretty good preview of how tough the series would be. The odds going into the series were pretty much based on the cavs wrecking 2 teams they were supposed to and Nelson being out.

The most obvious shit that happened was Dwight was too fast for Big Z so anytime he was on him he'd go right by Z and finish. If Andy was in the game he'd just overpower him down low because Andy wasn't as strong as he would be in later years. So those were the 2 options guarding him. He had his way with either. And we can throw Ben in the but we knew he was more or less done at that point.

Not to mention Andy started every game that series so that meant at Pf he was guarding who? Hedo or Lewis, 2 guys that would fly by him the instant he looked at them lol. Ben Wallace rotates in and for whatever reason is holding lewis or hedo as well sometimes. West was far too small to deter the jump shooting of 2 6'10 wings. I agree lebron should have been on one of the 2 and maybe been able to erase one, but Mike Brown was the coach. The one you call a great coach correct? The plan seemed to be to put Lebron on Lee and Alston so he could roam and help with the others, it backfired obviously. This is all without even considering that Mo shat the bed in the series. The Cavs were 0-5 in Orlando that season overall. 1-2 vs the Magic in the regular season.


I was cheering really hard for Lebron in that series - I was literally angry at the TV everytime I saw Lebron guarding Lee or Alston.. "WTF are you doing Mike Brown!!"... And Mike was that nerdy yes-man type, which made him even more unlikeable in that moment.. F'kin douchebag, I thought.

But it's on Lebron too... It's more on Lebron infact.. He can tell Mike Brown that he'll guard Hedo - Hedo was the key to that series.. He executed the Magic's primary strategy (angled entry passes to Dwight) and controlled the action in the key moments despite not shooting well overall.. Lebron could've taken him out completely, which would've won the series..

This idea that "dwight was too tough" is ridiculous... Lebron was more unstoppable than Dwight in that series, but Dwight was employing the superior brand of ball - the ball swung from side to side, so Dwight could catch the ball at the right angle and drop-step to the rim - that's the only move Dwight had (basic drop-step) and the Magic knew how to get him the ball.. So Lebron should've defended the primary entry passer (Hedo) and then disrupted the big man (jordan style) - this would've stifled the Magic's entire strategy - Lebron needed to guard Hedo and then be a roamer on Dwight... like Jordan did

[sdot_thadon]

I was cheering really hard for Lebron in that series - I was literally angry at the TV everytime I saw Lebron guarding Lee or Alston.. "WTF are you doing Mike Brown!!"... And Mike was that nerdy yes-man type, which made him even more unlikeable in that moment.. F'kin douchebag, I thought.

But it's on Lebron too... It's more on Lebron infact.. He can tell Mike Brown that he'll guard Hedo - Hedo was the key to that series.. He executed the Magic's primary strategy (angled entry passes to Dwight) and controlled the action in the key moments despite not shooting well overall.. Lebron could've taken him out completely, which would've won the series..

This idea that "dwight was too tough" is ridiculous... Lebron was more unstoppable than Dwight in that series, but Dwight was employing the superior brand of ball - the ball swung from side to side, so Dwight could catch the ball at the right angle and drop-step to the rim - that's the only move Dwight had (basic drop-step) and the Magic knew how to get him the ball.. So Lebron should've defended the primary entry passer (Hedo) and then disrupted the big man (jordan style) - this would've stifled the Magic's entire strategy - Lebron needed to guard Hedo and then be a roamer on Dwight... like Jordan did

Yeah that sounds good on paper till you realize Lewis was over 40% on 3s that series among others. Mj wouldn't have made a difference there in Lebron's place, simply because Lebron wasn't the issue in that series and it's laughable to suggest otherwise.Pietrus, while he stood no chance of guarding Lebron without Dwight on the back line was far more competent than any guy the cavs could throw at Dwight. And let's not act as if Hedo was the only guy on the roster that could make an entry pass jeez.. Dwight is the whole reason they got Shaq the following year.

[RRR3]

Yeah that sounds good on paper till you realize Lewis was over 40% on 3s that series among others. Mj wouldn't have made a difference there in Lebron's place, simply because Lebron wasn't the issue in that series and it's laughable to suggest otherwise.Pietrus, while he stood no chance of guarding Lebron without Dwight on the back line was far more competent than any guy the cavs could throw at Dwight. And let's not act as if Hedo was the only guy on the roster that could make an entry pass jeez.. Dwight is the whole reason they got Shaq the following year.
He’s not interested in actually having a real debate. Just ignore him, it gets him more riled up.

[SaintzFury13]

I was cheering really hard for Lebron in that series - I was literally angry at the TV everytime I saw Lebron guarding Lee or Alston.. "WTF are you doing Mike Brown!!"... And Mike was that nerdy yes-man type, which made him even more unlikeable in that moment.. F'kin douchebag, I thought.

But it's on Lebron too... It's more on Lebron infact.. He can tell Mike Brown that he'll guard Hedo - Hedo was the key to that series.. He executed the Magic's primary strategy (angled entry passes to Dwight) and controlled the action in the key moments despite not shooting well overall.. Lebron could've taken him out completely, which would've won the series..

This idea that "dwight was too tough" is ridiculous... Lebron was more unstoppable than Dwight in that series, but Dwight was employing the superior brand of ball - the ball swung from side to side, so Dwight could catch the ball at the right angle and drop-step to the rim - that's the only move Dwight had (basic drop-step) and the Magic knew how to get him the ball.. So Lebron should've defended the primary entry passer (Hedo) and then disrupted the big man (jordan style) - this would've stifled the Magic's entire strategy - Lebron needed to guard Hedo and then be a roamer on Dwight... like Jordan did

You didn't watch the series. Drop the act.

[SaintzFury13]

Yeah that sounds good on paper till you realize Lewis was over 40% on 3s that series among others. Mj wouldn't have made a difference there in Lebron's place, simply because Lebron wasn't the issue in that series and it's laughable to suggest otherwise.Pietrus, while he stood no chance of guarding Lebron without Dwight on the back line was far more competent than any guy the cavs could throw at Dwight. And let's not act as if Hedo was the only guy on the roster that could make an entry pass jeez.. Dwight is the whole reason they got Shaq the following year.

Can we talk about that for a moment by the way?

The Cavaliers thought the best way to counter the Dwight Howard problem was to...get Shaq. Old, could barely move, could only play 20 minutes a game...they thought THAT was the answer to Howard.

And people wonder why LeBron left the first time.

[3ba11]

Can we talk about that for a moment by the way?

The Cavaliers thought the best way to counter the Dwight Howard problem was to...get Shaq. Old, could barely move, could only play 20 minutes a game...they thought THAT was the answer to Howard.

And people wonder why LeBron left the first time.


2010 Shaq was far superior to any center that Jordan ever had - he averaged 12/7 and 1.5 blocks, while the best center Jordan had was 89' Cartwright (12/7 and 0.5 blocks)... Jordan had zero rim protection in his career, while Lebron always had tons (Zydrunas, Mosgov, Shaq, Birdman, Chandler, AD, McGee, and more)

Shaq averaged 18/9 in 2009 with all-star MVP, but was reduced to spot-up shooter in Lebron-ball.. Imagine reducing shaq to a spot-up shooter... :facepalm:... that's how unskilled Lebron is - Lebron employs the simple ball-dominator brand, aka the same brand used by every playground king in America.. it's literally the easiest, least sophisticated way to play

[sdot_thadon]

Can we talk about that for a moment by the way?

The Cavaliers thought the best way to counter the Dwight Howard problem was to...get Shaq. Old, could barely move, could only play 20 minutes a game...they thought THAT was the answer to Howard.

And people wonder why LeBron left the first time.

Yeah, sigh...ancient Shaq could barely move in 2010, in comparison to his old.self. I'll admit he was even more of a complete statue when he played for Boston. But yeah they thought oh yeah Shaq owns Dwight get Shaq. And as things worked out they didn't even see Orlando in the 2010 postseason...smh.

[SaintzFury13]

Yeah, sigh...ancient Shaq could barely move in 2010, in comparison to his old.self. I'll admit he was even more of a complete statue when he played for Boston. But yeah they thought oh yeah Shaq owns Dwight get Shaq. And as things worked out they didn't even see Orlando in the 2010 postseason...smh.

What's funny is that getting Shaq might have been the very reason Cleveland lost that series against Boston. Having Shaq forced Cleveland to play a more restricted offense that involved less floor spacing and team play. You almost had to set Shaq up just to get him involved in the offense, and that made the team a lot more predictable. Cleveland actually looked a lot better when they were using Z and Hickson to spread out the floor and/or use a more speed-based formula of attack against Boston. It worked to perfection in game 3 of that series. I can remember LeBron getting pissed at Mike Brown when he took both him and Z out of the game early in the second quarter of game 5 and put Shaq in. The rest was history from that point on.

I think that series more than anything proves that you should never sign a player, especially one who is out of his prime like Shaq, just because of one team. Hell, Cleveland probably would have beaten Orlando that year anyways. They had a lot more length at the perimeter to deal with Orlando's shooters, and losing Hedo was a big play for the Magic since that made it a lot easier to defend them. Granted, they did get Vince Carter but he just made the Orlando offense rely more on star play than playing through a system, which made them so difficult to defend in the first place.

But then again...Shaq almost certainly would have been needed against the Lakers. In the two meetings the Lakers and Cavaliers had that year, the Lakers lacked the usual advantages that they had with playing both Gasol and Bynum because Cleveland was one of the very few teams who could match them in size with bigs of their own. And Ron Artest, as great as he was defensively, couldn't guard LeBron. And LeBron in return had little problems containing him. It was tough for Kobe to find any consistency from his teammates. And the results? Two clear cut wins for Cleveland in those meetings.

I still contend that Cleveland would have been better off going after someone like Bogut instead of Shaq. I don't know if they would have been able to pull that trade off, but Bogut would have benefited Cleveland far more than Shaq ever could.

[sdot_thadon]

Shaq averaged 18/9 in 2009 with all-star MVP, but was reduced to spot-up shooter in Lebron-ball.. Imagine reducing shaq to a spot-up shooter... :facepalm:..

And right here is the moment you died on your own sword. What a fool. Spoiler alert: Maybe this is the part where you find out Shaq shot the highest percentage of his fga from 0-3ft in his career that season.....all those spot ups tho.:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

What's funny is that getting Shaq might have been the very reason Cleveland lost that series against Boston. Having Shaq forced Cleveland to play a more restricted offense that involved less floor spacing and team play. You almost had to set Shaq up just to get him involved in the offense, and that made the team a lot more predictable. Cleveland actually looked a lot better when they were using Z and Hickson to spread out the floor and/or use a more speed-based formula of attack against Boston. It worked to perfection in game 3 of that series. I can remember LeBron getting pissed at Mike Brown when he took both him and Z out of the game early in the second quarter of game 5 and put Shaq in. The rest was history from that point on.

Hit the nail on the head. Trying to reinforce strategy for Orlando kinda crippled them agaisnt Boston, but still there was more going on there than we will ever know in that series .

[Axe]

Idk why you guys still have to beat a dead horse here or something. I mean he was almost doxxed recently but not even that could change a single thing in his god-awful retarded takes about pippen or lebron.

[SaintzFury13]

2010 Shaq was far superior to any center that Jordan ever had - he averaged 12/7 and 1.5 blocks, while the best center Jordan had was 89' Cartwright (12/7 and 0.5 blocks)... Jordan had zero rim protection in his career, while Lebron always had tons (Zydrunas, Mosgov, Shaq, Birdman, Chandler, AD, McGee, and more)

Shaq averaged 18/9 in 2009 with all-star MVP, but was reduced to spot-up shooter in Lebron-ball.. Imagine reducing shaq to a spot-up shooter... :facepalm:... that's how unskilled Lebron is - Lebron employs the simple ball-dominator brand, aka the same brand used by every playground king in America.. it's literally the easiest, least sophisticated way to play

Shaq was reduced to a spot up shooter.

I can now say it with confidence: that is the absolute dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum so far and I don't think I'll ever see anything more idiotic. You have truly outdone yourself.