Lebron is a better playoff scorer then Kobe Bryant.

[coastalmarker99]

20 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 237

Kobe 167



30 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 118

Kobe 88


40 points games in the playoffs

Lebron 28

Kobe 13



45 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 11

Kobe 5



50 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 1

Kobe 1




30 point games in the NBA finals


Lebron 22

Kobe 13




40 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 8

Kobe 1




50 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 1

Kobe 0


Most 40 point playoff games in a single playoff run.

Lebron 8

Kobe 4



PPG in game sevens

Lebron 35 PPG

Kobe 22.8



PPG in elimination games

Lebron 27 PPG

Kobe 25 PPG





Best Playoffs PPG (no game minimum)

Lebron 35.3 PPG 2009 playoffs.

Kobe 32.8 PPG 2007 playoffs.









Alltime Playoff PPG average

Lebron 28.7

Kobe 25.6


Alltime Playoff FG%

Lebron 49.5 %

Kobe 44.8%


Alltime Playoff TS%

Lebron 58.3%

Kobe 54.1%

[kennygriffin]

kobe dialed his scoring back to make his teammates happy and create more chemistry. he only gunned for 35ppg averages when he absolutely had to when he had smush and kwame in the starting lineup

lebron guns for 35ppg even when he has great teammates and they get reduced to role players or stretch 4's and their careers bottom out. lebrons never elevated anyone and his usage/ball hogging/pounding offense is why his teams underachieved


also lebrons started 70 more playoff games than kobe due to having his own team from day one and not ripping his achilles in half. so that might also have something to do with the discrepancy

[coastalmarker99]

kobe dialed his scoring back to make his teammates happy and create more chemistry. he only gunned for 35ppg averages when he absolutely had to when he had smush and kwame in the starting lineup

lebron guns for 35ppg even when he has great teammates and they get reduced to role players or stretch 4's and their careers bottom out. lebrons never elevated anyone and his usage/ball hogging/pounding offense is why his teams underachieved


also lebrons started 70 more playoff games than kobe due to having his own team from day one and not ripping his achilles in half. so that might also have something to do with the discrepancy


Kobe for his entire playoff career averaged 20.5 FGA per game.


Lebron for his playoff career averages 20.7 FGA per game.



So I am not really seeing your point in how Kobe pulled his scoring back to make his teammates happy and create more chemistry.



As both Kobe and Lebron basically have equal FGA averages for their playoff careers.

[RRR3]

Kenny has to be the most bodybagged poster in ISH history.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

and which playoff scoring title run from Lebron\Kobe is getting compared to 2019 Kawhi?


He scored 732 points on 62% TS, which is the highest total scoring\TS combination for any player during a championship run. He played two different defensive player of the year winners in Giannis\Draymond. Also played Simmons, Butler, Embiid, Brooke Lopez, Iggy who were on all nba defensive teams. If you combine Giannis\Draymond\Simmons\BUtler\Embiid\Lopez\Iggy it would equal a total of 23 all defensive teams spreaded between 7 different players.

[MrFonzworth]

Kenny has to be the most bodybagged poster in ISH history.

When you Google insidehoops loser a picture of you comes up, not Fred Durst

[kennygriffin]

Kobe for his entire playoff career averaged 20.5 FGA per game.


Lebron for his playoff career averages 20.7 FGA per game.



So I am not really seeing your point in how Kobe pulled his scoring back to make his teammates happy and create more chemistry.



As both Kobe and Lebron basically have equal FGA averages for their playoff careers.



a guy could average 20 fga's and have 100 games of 40+ over their career or 0 games of 40+

its about individual games and how much a player guns for his numbers or pads his stats at the end in isolated instances


kobe averaged 27 shots in 2006 and 23 shots in 2007. so how on earth did he have 45 games of 40+ those 2 years. based on kobes fg% he should have only ever scored around 26 points... and even with his free throws added on thats only 35 points.. wait. thats his average on the season. weird. so he never should have scored more than 35... DEEEERP!!!!!

you lebron fans are so f*cking stupid

[Axe]

When you Google insidehoops loser a picture of you comes up, not Fred Durst
:milton

[Spurs m8]

Kobe played to win...not stat pad

We also not adjusting anything to allow for inflated stats today.

But hey...let's keep celebrating longevity stat padding

[kennygriffin]

Kenny has to be the most bodybagged poster in ISH history.

you guys never wait for my response lol.. i swear this happens all the time. people get all excited then i obliterate the sh*t they're quoting and they're left looking stupid as f*ck.. at least wait to see what i'm gonna say. it might make sense... like how shot averages have nothing to do with big scoring games because ... well... use your brain fellas

[coastalmarker99]

a guy could average 20 fga's and have 100 games of 40+ over their career or 0 games of 40+

its about individual games and how much a player guns for his numbers or pads his stats at the end in isolated instances


kobe averaged 27 shots in 2006 and 23 shots in 2007. so how on earth did he have 45 games of 40+ those 2 years. based on kobes fg% he should have only ever scored around 26 points... and even with his free throws added on thats only 35 points.. wait. thats his average on the season. weird. so he never should have scored more than 35... DEEEERP!!!!!

you lebron fans are so f*cking stupid


Didn't Kobe stay in at end of game 1 of the 2009 finals when the game was basically already over so he could pad his stats and finally get a 40 point game in the finals?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQhhYPc0MCY

[eliteballer]

LeBrons a juicer who's played most of his career in a soft conference, soft league, and on super teams.

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe played to win...not stat pad

We also not adjusting anything to allow for inflated stats today.

But hey...let's keep celebrating longevity stat padding


Oh really look at the end of this game and tell me that Kobe is not stat padding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQhhYPc0MCY




I mean there is no reason for him to be in the game with 2 minutes left when they are up by 20 unless he was stat padding to get a 40 point game in the finals.

[kennygriffin]

Didn't Kobe stay in at end of game 1 of the 2009 finals when the game was basically already over so he could pad his stats and finally get a 40 point game in the finals?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQhhYPc0MCY

i dunno i think that was the series he was doing that underbite shit and the no emotion press conferences. i think he was trying to send a message. i didn't like it but i'm glad he didn't do it very often

kobe once gifted durant a scoring title and sat out the last game of the year voluntarily

he also came out of many games with 60 or around 60 at the end of 3 quarters ... he probly has 5 games of 80+ if he had lebrons mindset to chase stats

[3ba11]

Kobe's scoring was partially-assisted, which elevates teammate role, while Lebron's scoring is unassisted, so teammates are reduced to spot-up roles

So who cares if Lebron scores more - he sacrificing brand of ball to score, so his scoring yields a weaker brand that needs more help to win..

Furthermore, Lebron's jumpshot doesn't get hot, so he never gets doubled to free up teammates - so his scoring is unassisted and undoubled, which explains why his teammates play like shit and get blamed for losses..

[Smoke117]

We know he is. Kobe has always been an underwhelming playoff performer.

[SouBeachTalents]

Didn't Kobe stay in at end of game 1 of the 2009 finals when the game was basically already over so he could pad his stats and finally get a 40 point game in the finals?
He sure did

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200906040LAL.html#q4

He came back with 7 minutes left up by 25 and jacked up 6 extra shots to get exactly 40. If not for that he would've played in 7 Finals and never scored 40 points once.

[kennygriffin]

We know he is. Kobe has always been an underwhelming playoff performer.

this coming from a chris paul fan is almost too much irony. it might break ISH


can the mods deactivate avatars for an hour just in case

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe's scoring was partially-assisted, which elevates teammate role, while Lebron's scoring is unassisted, so teammates are reduced to spot-up roles

So who cares if Lebron scores more - he sacrificing brand of ball to score, so his scoring yields a weaker brand that needs more help to win..

Furthermore, Lebron's jumpshot doesn't get hot, so he never gets doubled to free up teammates - so his scoring is unassisted and undoubled, which explains why his teammates play like shit and get blamed for losses..



The reason that Lebron does not get doubled.


Is because he is one of the Goat playmakers in NBA history.


Shump & RJ On Why LeBron Never Gets Double-Teamed




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAQVnPRolsk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dy9U2qZ01A

[coastalmarker99]

He sure did

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200906040LAL.html#q4

He came back with 7 minutes left up by 25 and jacked up 6 extra shots to get exactly 40. If not for that he would've played in 7 Finals and never scored 40 points once.

:applause:


I don't think we are going to hear anything about that from our boy Kenny.

[ScottieQuitting]

We know he is. Kobe has always been an underwhelming playoff performer.
Huh?

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe's scoring was partially-assisted, which elevates teammate role, while Lebron's scoring is unassisted, so teammates are reduced to spot-up roles

So who cares if Lebron scores more - he sacrificing brand of ball to score, so his scoring yields a weaker brand that needs more help to win..

Furthermore, Lebron's jumpshot doesn't get hot, so he never gets doubled to free up teammates - so his scoring is unassisted and undoubled, which explains why his teammates play like shit and get blamed for losses..

You ever play 2k my player, and you'll score 25+ points in the first quarter until you get doubled every possession?




So then you finish the game with 20+ assists because with the perspective they give you it's super easy to find the open man? That's what would happen with LeBron as he is one of the GOAT playmakers in NBA history.





Also it should be noted that if a team decides to double the arguably best passer in the NBA who is 6'9 and can see over the defence on the perimeter

Lebron would love that as he will find the open man and the Lakers will have an open shot.

[eliteballer]

LeBrons a juicer who's played most of his career in a soft conference, soft league, and on super teams.

...

[kennygriffin]

He sure did

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200906040LAL.html#q4

He came back with 7 minutes left up by 25 and jacked up 6 extra shots to get exactly 40. If not for that he would've played in 7 Finals and never scored 40 points once.

lebrons been stat padding since his very first year making the playoffs lol

2006 game 1 vs wizards - 48 minutes, 32 points, won by 11

2006 game 4 vs wizards - gunning for 40, finished with 38, played till final buzzer. had a layup with 30 seconds left and lost by 10

2006 game 3 vs pistons - 48 minutes, 21 point triple double, won by 9



i'l make a detailed thread about his entire career of playoff stat padding tomorrow.

[coastalmarker99]

...



Here are Kobe's finals stats against the soft conference

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%




Ask yourself this question how was it that Kobe was posting way better stats against the west teams than he was posting against the soft eastern teams.

[kennygriffin]

Here are Kobe's finals stats against the soft conference

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%




Ask yourself this question how was it that Kobe was posting way better stats against the west teams than he was posting against the soft eastern teams.

orange cassidy had a good post about the differences in eras and how before people actually played physical defense in the finals with very few bail out calls

that or you would have to admit kobe locked up everyone and lebron got torched by everyone

take your pick


kobe vs lebron finals defense


Kobe:

reggies 2000 finals = 41%fgs
M Jackson 2000 finals = 41% fg's
iversons 2001 finals = 40%fgs
snow 2001 finals = 40%fgs
mckie 2001 finals = 31%fg's
bell 2001 finals = 30%fg's
kidds 2002 finals = 43%fg's
Hamilton 2004 finals = 40%fg's
prince 2004 finals = 38%fg's
pierce 2008 finals = 43%fg's ( finals MVP )
Rondo 2008 finals = 37%fg's
Alston 2009 finals = 36%fg's
lee 2009 finals = 37%fg's
reddick 2009 finals = 40%fg's
nelson 2009 finals = 34%fg's
pierce 2010 finals = 43%fg's
ray 2010 finals = 36%fg's
tony allen 2010 finals = 33%fg's


https://i.redd.it/fkxo4aq7glc61.gif


Lebron

Parker - 53% ( finals MVP )
Terry - 50%
Marion - 48%
Dirk - 42% ( finals MVP )
Durant - 55%
Kawhi - 51% 2013
Diaw - 50%
Kawhi - 61% 2014 ( finals MVP )
Manu - 50%
Iguodala - 52% ( finals MVP )
Green - 49% ( should be finals MVP. thanks silver ) 2016
Durant - 56% ( finals MVP ) 2017
Iguodala - 53%
Durant - 53% ( finals MVP ) 2018
Green - 52% 2018
Iguodala - 58% 2018
Butler - 55%


https://media1.tenor.com/images/6f4ce6161f043dc29b844f8e630018ff/tenor.gif?itemid=16383014

[3ba11]

orange cassidy had a good post about the differences in eras and how before people actually played physical defense in the finals with very few bail out calls

that or you would have to admit kobe locked up everyone and lebron got torched by everyone

take your pick


I love how your data provides MASSIVE SAMPLES that show clear trends:

it's clear that Lebron's teammates produce less alongside him (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496730-The-Lebron-Effect), and the stats above show that Lebron lets everyone go off, while Kobe locks everyone down.

[1987_Lakers]

orange cassidy had a good post about the differences in eras and how before people actually played physical defense in the finals with very few bail out calls

that or you would have to admit kobe locked up everyone and lebron got torched by everyone

take your pick

Didn't that SaintzFury poster rip that argument apart?

[1987_Lakers]

2007: LeBron mostly guarded Bowen and Ginobli. Eric Snow was the poor bastard who was stuck with the task of trying to guard Parker in that series. 2007 doesn't even matter because at that point LeBron was still a relatively mediocre defensive player. It wasn't until 2009 that he reached elite level status.

2011: It doesn't matter who you say. LeBron pretty much got lit up by everyone in this series. I'm surprised people don't talk about LeBron's defense in that series more because it was one of the worst displays I had ever seen by a first team all defense member, especially against Terry. This one I will absolutely give you.

2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRF_JaDGuCU

Going off of stats when you clearly didn't watch the finals doesn't help your argument. Kevin Durant shot well for the most part during that series. When guarded by James it was a much different story.

2013: It is absolutely hilarious that you would list Kawhi and Diaw, but don't bother listing Parker, who was in fact guarded by LeBron this time for most of the series after game 1, and had a very noticeable dip in production as a result. This series is often seen as an example of LeBron's prowess at the defensive end of the floor as well as his versatility. He was tasked with guarding the other teams point guard and locked him down. But since you don't want to list Parker because you know it hurts your narrative, I'll tell you what his stats were for you: 41% shooting and 15 PPG, compared to above 50% and 20 PPG going into that finals series against Miami.

2014: Again, no argument from me on this one. Even though San Antonio was clearly the superior team, this does not excuse LeBron's performance in this series. It should be noted for arguments sake that 2014 is the year LeBron's noticeable decline as a whole on defense begins, even though he still showed flashes of brilliance in the years to come.

2015: Buddy, Iggy was literally left wide open at the perimeter all the time by the Cavaliers. They practically begged him to shoot the ball from three because that was the only thing they could hope for. I think out of the entire finals series, I could count maybe three or four instances where LeBron guarded Iggy. LeBron spent most of that series guarding Draymond because they wanted to give him as much rest on defense as possible due to the insane load he was taking on the offensive end.

2016: Should be finals MVP for what? Stupidly getting himself suspended? Unlike the previous series (2015), this time LeBron actually spent most of the series guarding Barnes (who noticeably struggled throughout the finals, thanks once again for not bothering to mention that because you know it hurts your narrative) and Iggy whenever he was playing. Draymond was mostly guarded by Thompson.

2017: At this point LeBron and the Cavaliers as a whole either completely gave up on playing defense or had no idea what it was, sometimes both. Either way I'll give you this one.

2018: There is no guarding Kevin Durant at this point, it doesn't matter who you are.

2020: I actually don't even remember who LeBron's main defensive assignment was in this one, which is strange considering this is the most recent one that he was in. Could have been Butler for all we know, but considering how the Lakers usually had Green, Pope and Avery guarding the opposing teams best perimeter player, I doubt LeBron was the one tasked with guarding him.

And in case you're wondering how I know all of this apart from 2020 because I apparently didn't pay attention to that one, this comes down to a little something I like to call watching the game, paying attention to what's going on and having a clue as to what I'm talking about.

:oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496108-Before-teaming-up-with-Wade-Bosh-how-was-Lebron-s-career-better-than-AI-Dwight-Kid&p=14402336&viewfull=1#post14402336

[kennygriffin]

Didn't that SaintzFury poster rip that argument apart?

i dunno i didn't read any of "his" posts. i didn't even know it was your alt lol


i legit didn't care. if you posted it under your own name i might have replied

[kennygriffin]

:oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496108-Before-teaming-up-with-Wade-Bosh-how-was-Lebron-s-career-better-than-AI-Dwight-Kid&p=14402336&viewfull=1#post14402336

looks like you really tried hard to prove me wrong huh. didn't work though. everyone destroyed lebron routinely in the finals

[1987_Lakers]

i dunno i didn't read any of his posts. i didn't even know it was your alt lol


i legit didn't care. if you posted it under your own name i might have replied

It's honestly not my account, actually found it amusing how you thought it was me posting all that, you getting all hot and bothered after that thread and immediately getting yourself banned was also funny.

[kennygriffin]

It's honestly not my account, actually found it amusing how you thought it was me posting all that, you getting all hot and bothered after that thread and immediately getting yourself banned was also funny.

i dunno i'm reading it lol. does he even still post here

just looks like a bunch of opinion from the looks of it. its too long

[tpols]

Lebron got most of his stats vs shitty eastern conference teams while he himself had super teams. If you see how he shot against ~ 07 spurs, 08 Celtics, 11 Mavs, 13 spurs, 15 warriors, and others he played like shit against his best competition. When bran wins its by a hair (ray, kyrie)... when he loses its by record amount and unprecedented choke ('11, '14, '18)

[Gileraracer]

5 rings with one team >>>> 4 rings with 4 handcrafted superteams (cavs twice)

[coastalmarker99]

5 rings with one team >>>> 4 rings with 4 handcrafted superteams (cavs twice)


4 MVPS and 4 final MVP'S >>>> 5 rings with 3 of them being as a sidekick to Shaq.

[RRR3]

4 MVPS and 4 final MVP'S >>>> 5 rings with 3 being as a sidekick to Shaq.
That poster literally disappeared for over a year after the 2020 finals. Talk about butthurt.

[ImKobe]

Kobe '08-'10 Playoffs: 29.8 ppg 56.9%TS
Lebron '11-'13 Playoffs: 26.7 ppg 57.5%TS

so much for that narrative

Kobe was the better scorer when their eras clashed and the league didn't yet adapt to the faster-paced, 3PT heavy offenses with smaller bigs that resulted in the inflation of the stats we see today.

Lebron from '06-'16 (before the league adapted to GSW and started breaking ORTG numbers) was at 28 ppg on 56.7%TS in the POs, Kobe from '06-'12 was 29.2 ppg on 56.1%TS. and that includes his post-prime years in '11 & '12.

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe '08-'10 Playoffs: 29.8 ppg 56.9%TS
Lebron '11-'13 Playoffs: 26.7 ppg 57.5%TS

so much for that narrative



Lebron at the age of 21 in his first playoff series averaged more PPG in a playoff series than Kobe ever did in his 20-year career.



The most PPG Kobe ever averaged in a playoff series was 32 to 33 PPG and here is a 21-year-old LeBron averaging 35 PPG in his first-ever playoff series.


So much for that narrative about Kobe being a better playoff scorer then Lebron.



And also for the record, Lebron faced tougher defensive teams on average than Kobe did.

[ImKobe]

Lebron at the age of 21 in his first playoff series averaged more PPG in a playoff series than Kobe ever did in his 20-year career.

Against one of the worst Playoff defenses with multiple OT games.. cmon. Which is more impressive, Lebron's series vs. Washington or Kobe's vs Sacramento in '01? Lebron played 4 more minutes a game to average an extra .7 ppg against a bottom 10 defense, bravo.

[coastalmarker99]

Against one of the worst Playoff defenses with multiple OT games.. cmon. Which is more impressive, Lebron's series vs. Washington or Kobe's vs Sacramento in '01? Lebron played 4 more minutes a game to average an extra .7 ppg against a bottom 10 defense, bravo.

AVG D faced rankings in the playoffs


1 Wilt Chamberlain -2.48 playoff games played 160

2 Kevin Garnett -2.02 playoff games played 133

3 Lebron James -1.8 playoff games played 266

4 Kobe Bryant -1.7 playoff games played 201

5 Shaquille O'Neal -1.51 playoff games played 199

6 Michael Jordan -1.11 playoff games played 178

7 Larry Bird -0.63 playoff games played 161

8 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -0.03 playoff games played 222

9 Tim Duncan 0.14 games playoff games played 252

10 Magic Johnson 0.38 games playoff games played 186

11 Bill Russell 0.98 playoff games played 167

12 Hakeem Olajuwon 1.05 playoff games played 140

[ImKobe]

AVG D faced rankings in the playoffs


1 Wilt Chamberlain -2.48 playoff games played 160

2 Kevin Garnett -2.02 playoff games played 133

3 Lebron James -1.8 playoff games played 266

4 Kobe Bryant -1.7 playoff games played 201

5 Shaquille O'Neal -1.51 playoff games played 199

6 Michael Jordan -1.11 playoff games played 178

7 Larry Bird -0.63 playoff games played 161

8 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -0.03 playoff games played 222

9 Tim Duncan 0.14 games playoff games played 252

10 Magic Johnson 0.38 games playoff games played 186

11 Bill Russell 0.98 playoff games played 167

12 Hakeem Olajuwon 1.05 playoff games played 140

What does that have to do with the Washington series? He played a horrible defense, probably top 3 worst him and Kobe faced if you combine their opponents..


Kobe was the better scorer, it's okay to admit that.

[RRR3]

What does that have to do with the Washington series? He played a horrible defense, probably top 3 worst him and Kobe faced if you combine their opponents..


Kobe was the better scorer, it's okay to admit that.
LeBron is always going to better and it keeps you up all night :roll:

[coastalmarker99]

What does that have to do with the Washington series? He played a horrible defense, probably top 3 worst him and Kobe faced if you combine their opponents..


Kobe was the better scorer, it's okay to admit that.


Lebron is in the GOAT tier of playoff scorers


Kobe is not in that tier it is ok to admit that.


Lebron has the most game-winners in playoff history with 6

Kobe for example has only 1 game-winner in the playoffs.

[SaintzFury13]

i dunno i'm reading it lol. does he even still post here

I literally just replied to a post you made yesterday. Don't pretend to be a retard.


just looks like a bunch of opinion from the looks of it. its too long

Me literally explaining what happened in those series = a bunch of opinions.

Again, don't pretend to be a retard.

[RRR3]

Lebron is in the GOAT tier of playoff scorers


Kobe is not in that tier it is ok to admit that.


Lebron has the most game-winners in playoff history with 6

Kobe for example has only 1 game-winner in the playoffs.
But you see if we cherry pick Kobe’s best runs and compare them to LeBron’s non-best runs he’s better!

[RRR3]

I literally just replied to a post you made yesterday. Don't pretend to be a retard.



Me literally explaining what happened in those series = a bunch of opinions.

Again, don't pretend to be a retard.
He’s not pretending. Take it from someone who’s known him for years.

[ImKobe]

Lebron is in the GOAT tier of playoff scorers


Kobe is not in that tier it is ok to admit that.


Lebron has the most game-winners in playoff history with 6

Kobe for example has only 1 game-winner in the playoffs.

What do game-winners have to do with playoff scoring, exactly? Kobe was the better scorer when they played in the same era, there's nothing wrong with admitting that bro. Stop moving the goalposts.

POs

06-10
Kobe: 29.8 ppg 57%TS, 3 Finals runs
Lebron: 29.3 ppg 56.1%TS, 1 Finals run & he got swept in it while averaging 22 ppg

End of story.



But you see if we cherry pick Kobe’s best runs and compare them to LeBron’s non-best runs he’s better!

We're comparing runs from the same era, when their primes relatively overlapped.

[8Ball]

20 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 237

Kobe 167



30 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 118

Kobe 88


40 points games in the playoffs

Lebron 28

Kobe 13



45 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 11

Kobe 5



50 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 1

Kobe 1




30 point games in the NBA finals


Lebron 22

Kobe 13




40 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 8

Kobe 1




50 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 1

Kobe 0


Most 40 point playoff games in a single playoff run.

Lebron 8

Kobe 4



PPG in game sevens

Lebron 35 PPG

Kobe 22.8



PPG in elimination games

Lebron 27 PPG

Kobe 25 PPG





Best Playoffs PPG (no game minimum)

Lebron 35.3 PPG 2009 playoffs.

Kobe 32.8 PPG 2007 playoffs.









Alltime Playoff PPG average

Lebron 28.7

Kobe 25.6


Alltime Playoff FG%

Lebron 49.5 %

Kobe 44.8%


Alltime Playoff TS%

Lebron 58.3%

Kobe 54.1%


They aren't the same league as players.

1 has only 1 mvp. The other has 4 mvps.

Bron should not be compared to players capable of winning only 1 mvp.

[ImKobe]

They aren't the same league as players.

1 has only 1 mvp. The other has 4 mvps.

Bron should not be compared to players capable of winning only 1 mvp.

Plenty of greats (KD, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem) won just 1 MVP, doesn't mean they weren't on Lebron's level as players or better, or worse than Nash because he won 2. It's a RS award.

[coastalmarker99]

Plenty of greats (KD, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem) won just 1 MVP, doesn't mean they weren't on Lebron's level as players or better, or worse than Nash because he won 2. It's a RS award.

Only the elite of the elite in NBA history have 3 or more MVP awards to their names.


Lebron is in a class by himself when you compare him to the players that you just listed.

[ImKobe]

Only the elite of the elite in NBA history have 3 or more MVP awards to their names.


Lebron is in a class by himself when you compare him to the players that you just listed.

Ok, so Durant is not the elite of the elite? Shaq? Kobe? Hakeem?

Lebron is not in a class by himself, you're ****ing delusional if you think that. Kareem has 6 rings & 6 MVPs if you want to use that argument, MJ also has more rings & MVPs. Yet, the same guys who use this argument try to make the Lebron "GOAT" one when it wouldn't make sense if you applied the logic they use to discredit other players.

Rings are the #1 argument when comparing the ATGs. Bill Russell aside (he's in a class of his own and it's not a fair comparison because of the size of the league at the time), you have MJ, Kareem, Kobe, Magic & Duncan, who are in a league of their own with 5+ rings. MJ's 6 is the GOAT with his Finals win% and him being the best player on his team in every run and every single series.

Regular Season awards are not as meaningful as winning the championship. Plenty of greats sacrificed the RS awards to win in the Playoffs and go look up the number of MVPs who actually won the title in the same year, that list is not very long, it's like 33% of the time & with Jordan & Russell winning 4 rings as the RS MVP in the same year.

[coastalmarker99]

Ok, so Durant is not the elite of the elite? Shaq? Kobe? Hakeem?

Lebron is not in a class by himself, you're ****ing delusional if you think that. Kareem has 6 rings & 6 MVPs if you want to use that argument, MJ also has more rings & MVPs. Yet, the same guys who use this argument try to make the Lebron "GOAT" one when it wouldn't make sense if you applied the logic they use to discredit other players.

Rings are the #1 argument when comparing the ATGs. Bill Russell aside (he's in a class of his own and it's not a fair comparison because of the size of the league at the time), you have MJ, Kareem, Kobe, Magic & Duncan, who are in a league of their own with 5+ rings. MJ's 6 is the GOAT with his Finals win% and him being the best player on his team in every run and every single series.

Regular Season awards are not as meaningful as winning the championship. Plenty of greats sacrificed the RS awards to win in the Playoffs and go look up the number of MVPs who actually won the title in the same year, that list is not very long, it's like 33% of the time & with Jordan & Russell winning 4 rings as the RS MVP in the same year.


Oh really I will take the word of Oscar Robertson and other NBA legends that say Lebron is in a class by himself.

Oscar Robertson (Age 71) Says Lebron James Is In A Class By Himself (2010)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TrccDSAY58


“I’m very vocal on this. I think LeBron is the best player who has ever played the game,” Laimbeer said. “He’s 6-foot-8, 285 pounds, runs like the wind, jumps out of the gym. … At the end of the day, I firmly believe he’s the best basketball player in the history of the game.”



Isiah Thomas

The best and most “complete” player I have seen in my lifetime is Lebron James on and off the floor. He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category.


Former Bad Boy Pistons Star John Salley Says LeBron James Is The Most Complete Player In NBA History.


Charles Barkley: LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan

On NBA TV's Open Court, whose first episode debuts on NBA TV Tuesday (11 p.m. ET), Barkley goes on to say that both Jordan and LeBron James do "everything well."

But, he says, there's one key difference: "LeBron James is just bigger, stronger, faster. That's the only difference."


“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to play the game,” Pippen said. “But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved

[ImKobe]

Oh really I will take the word of Oscar Robertson and other NBA legends that say Lebron is in a class by himself.

Oscar Robertson (Age 71) Says Lebron James Is In A Class By Himself (2010)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TrccDSAY58


“I’m very vocal on this. I think LeBron is the best player who has ever played the game,” Laimbeer said. “He’s 6-foot-8, 285 pounds, runs like the wind, jumps out of the gym. … At the end of the day, I firmly believe he’s the best basketball player in the history of the game.”



Isiah Thomas

The best and most “complete” player I have seen in my lifetime is Lebron James on and off the floor. He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category.


Former Bad Boy Pistons Star John Salley Says LeBron James Is The Most Complete Player In NBA History.


Charles Barkley: LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan

On NBA TV's Open Court, whose first episode debuts on NBA TV Tuesday (11 p.m. ET), Barkley goes on to say that both Jordan and LeBron James do "everything well."

But, he says, there's one key difference: "LeBron James is just bigger, stronger, faster. That's the only difference."


“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to play the game,” Pippen said. “But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved


Dude, Barkley just last week said that Lebron is not on MJ's and Kobe's level because he stacks his teams.


https://youtu.be/tLmqnpmz4xo

[coastalmarker99]

Dude, Barkley just last week said that Lebron is not on MJ's and Kobe's level because he stacks his teams.


https://youtu.be/tLmqnpmz4xo

Barkley was a HOFer in his prime
KJ was an All-star in his prime averaging 21 and 11 the previous 4 years

Majerle was an All-star in his prime and All-Defensive selection

Richard Dumas averaged 16ppg

Chambers was a 4x All-star who still played well averaging 12ppg

Ceballos was already averaging 13ppg and became borderline all-star/20ppg scorer the next year

Danny Ainge was a former all-star and smart vet still averaging 12ppg

All 7 of those guys averaged 12ppg or more in Barkley's first year on the team.


Seven-deep that team was just as stacked as any squad Bron was on. The claim that Bron "stacked the deck in his favour" is ridiculous cause there wasn't a single year where Bron didn't have to ball out to carry his team to a title.

And that ignores the triple-HOF teams that Barkley ran to make at ages 33 and 35, younger than Bron is now or even than Bron was when he first got AD.

The funniest part is that Barkley did ring chase in his prime. He was just 29 when he forced his way to a 53-win team with multiple all-stars.


And he only lasted 4 years there before forcing his way onto ANOTHER team with multiple stars that had just won back-to-back titles a year earlier. And hadn't been there even 2 years before he got Scottie to join them too.....and at that point he was still younger than Bron is right now.


Barkley's squad at 21: Moses Malone (HOF), Julius Erving (HOF), Barkley (HOF), Maurice Cheeks (HOF), Bobby Jones (HOF), Andrew Toney (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 29: Barkley (HOF), Kevin Johnson (All-star), Dan Majerle (All-star), Tom Chambers (All-star), Cedric Ceballos (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 33: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Clyde Drexler (HOF), Barkley (HOF)

Barkley's squad at 35: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Scottie Pippen (HOF), Barkley (HOF)


Sir Charles stayed trying to do what Bron did, he just failed at it and Shaq teases him too much so he's salty now

[ImKobe]

Barkley was a HOFer in his prime
KJ was an All-star in his prime averaging 21 and 11 the previous 4 years

Majerle was an All-star in his prime and All-Defensive selection

Richard Dumas averaged 16ppg

Chambers was a 4x All-star who still played well averaging 12ppg

Ceballos was already averaging 13ppg and became borderline all-star/20ppg scorer the next year

Danny Ainge was a former all-star and smart vet still averaging 12ppg

All 7 of those guys averaged 12ppg or more in Barkley's first year on the team.


Seven-deep that team was just as stacked as any squad Bron was on. The claim that Bron "stacked the deck in his favour" is ridiculous cause there wasn't a single year where Bron didn't have to ball out to carry his team to a title.

And that ignores the triple-HOF teams that Barkley ran to make at ages 33 and 35, younger than Bron is now or even than Bron was when he first got AD.

The funniest part is that Barkley did ring chase in his prime. He was just 29 when he forced his way to a 53-win team with multiple all-stars.


And he only lasted 4 years there before forcing his way onto ANOTHER team with multiple stars that had just won back-to-back titles a year earlier. And hadn't been there even 2 years before he got Scottie to join them too.....and at that point he was still younger than Bron is right now.


Barkley's squad at 21: Moses Malone (HOF), Julius Erving (HOF), Barkley (HOF), Maurice Cheeks (HOF), Bobby Jones (HOF), Andrew Toney (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 29: Barkley (HOF), Kevin Johnson (All-star), Dan Majerle (All-star), Tom Chambers (All-star), Cedric Ceballos (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 33: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Clyde Drexler (HOF), Barkley (HOF)

Barkley's squad at 35: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Scottie Pippen (HOF), Barkley (HOF)


Sir Charles stayed trying to do what Bron did, he just failed at it and Shaq teases him too much so he's salty now

The Suns were fairly stacked but had injury issues. Kevin Johnson was injured when they had their Finals run in '93 and after that it was Barkley who got hurt every year & fell off quickly. The Rockets argument is weak when they were all well past their primes and had little chance of winning it all. They didn't have a Big 3 with one of them being in their prime/peak like all of Lebron's Big 3s have been at this point.

Just look at the All-NBA teams and how the vast majority of them played out West, so Lebron was guaranteed the Finals ever year and delivered to his credit. He had years of not facing any 50+ win teams or even average offenses en route to a Finals appearance while Kobe played 50-win teams in almost every round, which is why he beat the most 50+ win teams in league history.

If you're going to make the HOF argument & disregard age, the current Lakers roster has 6 of them (AD, Russ, Bron, Howard, Melo & Gasol).

[SATAN]

Barkley was a HOFer in his prime
KJ was an All-star in his prime averaging 21 and 11 the previous 4 years

Majerle was an All-star in his prime and All-Defensive selection

Richard Dumas averaged 16ppg

Chambers was a 4x All-star who still played well averaging 12ppg

Ceballos was already averaging 13ppg and became borderline all-star/20ppg scorer the next year

Danny Ainge was a former all-star and smart vet still averaging 12ppg

All 7 of those guys averaged 12ppg or more in Barkley's first year on the team.


Seven-deep that team was just as stacked as any squad Bron was on. The claim that Bron "stacked the deck in his favour" is ridiculous cause there wasn't a single year where Bron didn't have to ball out to carry his team to a title.

And that ignores the triple-HOF teams that Barkley ran to make at ages 33 and 35, younger than Bron is now or even than Bron was when he first got AD.

The funniest part is that Barkley did ring chase in his prime. He was just 29 when he forced his way to a 53-win team with multiple all-stars.


And he only lasted 4 years there before forcing his way onto ANOTHER team with multiple stars that had just won back-to-back titles a year earlier. And hadn't been there even 2 years before he got Scottie to join them too.....and at that point he was still younger than Bron is right now.


Barkley's squad at 21: Moses Malone (HOF), Julius Erving (HOF), Barkley (HOF), Maurice Cheeks (HOF), Bobby Jones (HOF), Andrew Toney (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 29: Barkley (HOF), Kevin Johnson (All-star), Dan Majerle (All-star), Tom Chambers (All-star), Cedric Ceballos (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 33: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Clyde Drexler (HOF), Barkley (HOF)

Barkley's squad at 35: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Scottie Pippen (HOF), Barkley (HOF)


Sir Charles stayed trying to do what Bron did, he just failed at it and Shaq teases him too much so he's salty now

:rockon:

[HoopsNY]

20 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 237

Kobe 167



30 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 118

Kobe 88


40 points games in the playoffs

Lebron 28

Kobe 13



45 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 11

Kobe 5



50 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 1

Kobe 1




30 point games in the NBA finals


Lebron 22

Kobe 13




40 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 8

Kobe 1




50 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 1

Kobe 0


Most 40 point playoff games in a single playoff run.

Lebron 8

Kobe 4



PPG in game sevens

Lebron 35 PPG

Kobe 22.8



PPG in elimination games

Lebron 27 PPG

Kobe 25 PPG





Best Playoffs PPG (no game minimum)

Lebron 35.3 PPG 2009 playoffs.

Kobe 32.8 PPG 2007 playoffs.









Alltime Playoff PPG average

Lebron 28.7

Kobe 25.6


Alltime Playoff FG%

Lebron 49.5 %

Kobe 44.8%


Alltime Playoff TS%

Lebron 58.3%

Kobe 54.1%

The numbers don't tell the whole story, so there has to be some context provided.

For one, Kobe started in 200 playoff games, whereas LeBron has started in 266, which can obviously skew the totals and the gaps that exist in some categories.

In addition, Kobe wasn't a starter when he first came into the league, and his third season saw a lockout where the league played just 50 games and had the worst offensive production in league history.

We also have to consider that LeBron has had the luxury of playing in a free for all league from 2015 onwards, which can help longevity statistics when we've seen defenses breakdown. For example, LeBron averaged 28.0 PPG in the playoffs between 2006-14, and 29.7 PPG since then. And that still includes his last season where he averaged only 23 PPG.

Kobe's best years came in some of the toughest defensive years, including a tougher conference where each round was a likely dog fight. LeBron was fortunate to have the majority of his career through a cakewalk Eastern Conference.

When you adjust for Kobe's first three years, Kobe averages 27.7 PPG in the playoffs, a lot closer to LeBron's 28.0 PPG up until 2015.

To further put that into context, not only did he come into the league as sixth man, but he also had to default to Shaq as the #2 option really up until 2002 where it became a 1a-1b situation. From 2003 onward, Kobe averaged nearly 29 PPG. And when Shaq was out of the picture after 2004, Kobe averaged 29.2 PPG.

LeBron played on a lone island in Cleveland for his first 7 seasons. Then saw guys like Kyrie get injured in the 2015 finals and played without Love as well. In 2018, there was no Kyrie, so he again became the lone wolf as far as scoring was concerned. Not to mention, he benefited from a bubble where guys like Jimmy Butler put up all-time great numbers.

If prime Kobe was in today's league - as you've previously stated - he probably puts up close to 40 PPG. So the playoff numbers as we see them don't provide all of the context necessary.

Having said all of that, I do believe LeBron is the superior player.

[SATAN]

Having said all of that, I do believe LeBron is the superior player.

Here it is guys

[RRR3]

Here it is guys
Even other Mikey stans don’t agree with Snivelball :(


Only ImKobe and Tpols do. :(. Talk about bad company.

[kennygriffin]

Here it is guys

I didn't even read his post. but I agree. lebron is the more dominant statistical player. he just underperformed and over does it or has stage fright and accomplishes everything the cheap easy way so I never put him above kobe or mj because all of his accomplishments are fake and manufactured through colluding, bail outs or manipulation by the nba


no one ever said lebron wasn't a dominant player bullying his way to the rim and taking advantage of today's rules. nobody can breathe on him. for the 2010s and today's era he is the perfect player. his only downfall is he gasses out from being a fat alcoholic that smokes cigars and eats junk every day

that and never making others better unless they're a 3 point shooting role player. he destroys other stars careers


its never been about a lack of talent necessary for today's game. his lack of midrange shooting and free throw insecurities shouldn't totally diminish his size, speed, long range capabilities when dared to shoot because he can just carry his defenders and launch them into the 2nd row whenever he wishes.

lebrons a great talent. hes the prototypical body like a wilt or shaq from their eras. hes just mentally fragile like them as well and doesn't come close to the skill level some other guys had reached. I just give more credit to a guy that can win against all odds and dominate in a body that has less speed and strength than the guys hes matched up with most nights. kobe got the most out of his career. lebron left a lot on the table


lebrons an amazingly productive player that doesn't get the job done most of the time. that's what he is. that's how he will be remembered


maybe lebron was the superior prototypical player. but his skill, strategy and execution failed him

[tpols]

Barkley was a HOFer in his prime
KJ was an All-star in his prime averaging 21 and 11 the previous 4 years

Majerle was an All-star in his prime and All-Defensive selection

Richard Dumas averaged 16ppg

Chambers was a 4x All-star who still played well averaging 12ppg

Ceballos was already averaging 13ppg and became borderline all-star/20ppg scorer the next year

Danny Ainge was a former all-star and smart vet still averaging 12ppg

All 7 of those guys averaged 12ppg or more in Barkley's first year on the team.


Seven-deep that team was just as stacked as any squad Bron was on. The claim that Bron "stacked the deck in his favour" is ridiculous cause there wasn't a single year where Bron didn't have to ball out to carry his team to a title.

And that ignores the triple-HOF teams that Barkley ran to make at ages 33 and 35, younger than Bron is now or even than Bron was when he first got AD.

The funniest part is that Barkley did ring chase in his prime. He was just 29 when he forced his way to a 53-win team with multiple all-stars.


And he only lasted 4 years there before forcing his way onto ANOTHER team with multiple stars that had just won back-to-back titles a year earlier. And hadn't been there even 2 years before he got Scottie to join them too.....and at that point he was still younger than Bron is right now.


Barkley's squad at 21: Moses Malone (HOF), Julius Erving (HOF), Barkley (HOF), Maurice Cheeks (HOF), Bobby Jones (HOF), Andrew Toney (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 29: Barkley (HOF), Kevin Johnson (All-star), Dan Majerle (All-star), Tom Chambers (All-star), Cedric Ceballos (All-star)

Barkley's squad at 33: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Clyde Drexler (HOF), Barkley (HOF)

Barkley's squad at 35: Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF), Scottie Pippen (HOF), Barkley (HOF)


Sir Charles stayed trying to do what Bron did, he just failed at it and Shaq teases him too much so he's salty now

AD and Wade were easily better than KJ.

Even peak kyrie was better (KJ shit the bed in the 93 Finals while Kyrie went off in 16)

[TheCorporation]

Water is wet

7,631

[TheCorporation]

Kenny has to be the most bodybagged poster in ISH history.

3ball is up there too.

[TAZORAC]

Lebron does everything better then everybody other then shot.

[j3lademaster]

When you Google insidehoops loser a picture of you comes up, not Fred Durst
I get these two when i google that:

https://i.ibb.co/52Y1LN1/77-B16-AB3-50-E6-4634-9430-4-D9561808-C0-A.jpg

and

https://i.ibb.co/yYJB7y9/Screen-Shot-2019-02-16-at-6-15-15-AM.png

[ScottieQuitting]

AD and Wade were easily better than KJ.

Even peak kyrie was better (KJ shit the bed in the 93 Finals while Kyrie went off in 16)

That’s not entirely true. KJ was actually dinged up in those playoffs and that Finals. He still wasn’t bad.

Put up 18 ppg and 8 apg on 48% from the floor those playoffs. That’s with adding the second best player in the league and MVP to the team. The playoffs prior?

He put up 24 ppg and 12 apg on 48%. That’s a higher peak than anything my boy Kyrie has ever done for a playoff stretch.

In the 1993 Finals he put up 17 ppg and 7 apg

BUT was also guarded by MJ for long stretches at various times IIRC. And was facing a stifling perimeter defense with Armstrong, Mike and Scottie.

And in terms of totality as players, as much as I like Kyrie Irving, Kevin Johnson was the better all-around player. He scored at a high volume as well as distributed. And obviously also wasn’t a massive head case taking off extended pro long periods of a season for legit no reason.


I get these two when i google that:

https://i.ibb.co/52Y1LN1/77-B16-AB3-50-E6-4634-9430-4-D9561808-C0-A.jpg

and

https://i.ibb.co/yYJB7y9/Screen-Shot-2019-02-16-at-6-15-15-AM.png

:roll: :roll: :roll:

These two arguing basketball as if they know what they’re talking about. Good effing Lord. If I want Dungeons and Dragon advice I’ll go to these two.

[j3lademaster]

Lebron has more playoff total points, more efficient statistically, higher playoff ppg, more playoff gamewinners... yeah hard to argue with op.

[Indian guy]

This is hardly a revelation. MJ's the only player who is unequivocally a better playoff scorer than LeBron.

[warriorfan]

20 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 237

Kobe 167



30 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 118

Kobe 88


40 points games in the playoffs

Lebron 28

Kobe 13



45 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 11

Kobe 5



50 point games in the playoffs

Lebron 1

Kobe 1




30 point games in the NBA finals


Lebron 22

Kobe 13




40 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 8

Kobe 1




50 point games in the NBA finals

Lebron 1

Kobe 0


Most 40 point playoff games in a single playoff run.

Lebron 8

Kobe 4



PPG in game sevens

Lebron 35 PPG

Kobe 22.8



PPG in elimination games

Lebron 27 PPG

Kobe 25 PPG





Best Playoffs PPG (no game minimum)

Lebron 35.3 PPG 2009 playoffs.

Kobe 32.8 PPG 2007 playoffs.









Alltime Playoff PPG average

Lebron 28.7

Kobe 25.6


Alltime Playoff FG%

Lebron 49.5 %

Kobe 44.8%


Alltime Playoff TS%

Lebron 58.3%

Kobe 54.1%

LeBron played his entire career in an era with different defensive rules.

[tpols]

That’s not entirely true. KJ was actually dinged up in those playoffs and that Finals. He still wasn’t bad.

Put up 18 ppg and 8 apg on 48% from the floor those playoffs. That’s with adding the second best player in the league and MVP to the team. The playoffs prior?

He put up 24 ppg and 12 apg on 48%. That’s a higher peak than anything my boy Kyrie has ever done for a playoff stretch.

In the 1993 Finals he put up 17 ppg and 7 apg

BUT was also guarded by MJ for long stretches at various times IIRC. And was facing a stifling perimeter defense with Armstrong, Mike and Scottie.

And in terms of totality as players, as much as I like Kyrie Irving, Kevin Johnson was the better all-around player. He scored at a high volume as well as distributed. And obviously also wasn’t a massive head case taking off extended pro long periods of a season for legit no reason.



:roll: :roll: :roll:

These two arguing basketball as if they know what they’re talking about. Good effing Lord. If I want Dungeons and Dragon advice I’ll go to these two.

KJ averaged 15/7/2 with below average defense in the 93 Finals. If Kyrie averaged that vs the warriors they'd be swept everytime. But he went Wilt. KJs highest scoring season in his career was 22 ppg. I get he was a good player but kyrie can slash just like him but actually has a jumper. KJ didn't take a single 3pt shot vs the Bulls. Kyries shooting puts him way over the top. And he's one of the best point guard finishers ever up there with KJ and Tony Parker.

Kevin Johnson wasn't a great defender... Suns sucked on defense so I don't see how he's better overall when he doesn't have kyries offensive cieling (due to weak jumper)

[ShawkFactory]

LeBron played his entire career in an era with different defensive rules.

Kobe was 24 when Lebron came entire the league.

[warriorfan]

Kobe was 24 when Lebron came entire the league.

Exactly. Kobe played many more years in a more difficult era and conference.

[nineiron]

hey OP, how much does LeCoward's PR team pay you to post stupid $hit like this?

[ShawkFactory]

Exactly. Kobe played many more years in a more difficult era and conference.

The late 90s and early 2000s weren't exactly a difficult era. It was to score loads of points maybe, but not necessarily to win.

There were only like 3 truly contending teams each year from 1999-2004. Sometimes less. Just like always.

[tpols]

The late 90s and early 2000s weren't exactly a difficult era. It was to score loads of points maybe, but not necessarily to win.

There were only like 3 truly contending teams each year from 1999-2004. Sometimes less. Just like always.

The whole crux of lebrons argument is his efficiency. Late 90s to 2004 was the most brutal era to be efficient in because the paints were packed and guys were allowed to assault you. Honestly it was more fair back then... defense was allowed. But defense doesn't sell. So around 2006 they basically banned defense.

Lebron has played his entire playoff career in these conditions and then to top it off he's now playing in a spaced out 3pt format that would afford any star better numbers.

Kobe played half of his playoff career in the most brutal defensive era. Lebron played basically none. How is that not relevant?

And that's not even getting into conference disparity... 75% of Lebrons playoff games came against a garbage east. Anybody could run roughshod on scrubs especially when you build super teams. Imagine Kobes numbers if he teamed up with Duncan and Deron Williams in a conference where derrick rose, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Derozan, Paul millsap, and Al Horford were his toughest opponents. Joke.

[ScottieQuitting]

KJ averaged 15/7/2 with below average defense in the 93 Finals. If Kyrie averaged that vs the warriors they'd be swept everytime. But he went Wilt. KJs highest scoring season in his career was 22 ppg. I get he was a good player but kyrie can slash just like him but actually has a jumper. KJ didn't take a single 3pt shot vs the Bulls. Kyries shooting puts him way over the top. And he's one of the best point guard finishers ever up there with KJ and Tony Parker.

Kevin Johnson wasn't a great defender... Suns sucked on defense so I don't see how he's better overall when he doesn't have kyries offensive cieling (due to weak jumper)
KJ wasn’t a bad defender. In fact he was probably better than Kyrie in that regard

Also, dude he averaged 17.2 points for the series. How did you deduct him two points off his average?

As I said, he had a subpar series for his standards. Particularly efficiency wise. He was hobbled, and was being guarded by two of the best perimeter defenders of all time at various possessions. And BJ Armstrong who was no slouch himself.

He also had to expand a lot of energy, when they would switch Kevin Johnson onto Michael when he was abusing two big defenders in Dan Marjele and Tony Dumas off the dribble who just weren’t near quick enough to stay with him while being similar or bigger in terms of size.

Kyrie Irving‘s 2016 finals isn’t enough to justify calling him a definitively better player. Because as an all around player and PG, he isn’t. All Kyrie does is score. Yes he does it at a higher level, but that’s it.

But you’re also comparing it in a league where you can’t touch people.

Kevin Johnson was putting up 20 - 23 ppg in the regular season with 9 - 12 assists per game and in the playoffs around 24 - 27 ppg sometimes. In a much more physical league, where you could hand check players.

Where as Kyrie is giving you 22 - 27 ppg and 6 apg at PG … AT BEST.

At their best 27 ppg and 10 apg (KJ) >>> 27 ppg and 6 apg (Kyrie). At worst equal levels as defenders, even though KJ was probably better.

And also, if KJ was doing that in the late 80s through the 90s? In today’s league? With no physicality, particularly on the perimeter, peace and space and no rim defenders? You’re smoking crack if you don’t think he could equal Kyrie’s output consistently in terms of PPG.

On that stacked Phoenix Suns super team of 1993? You had an MVP averaging 27 ppg and a guy averaging 17 ppg and another guy averaging 16 ppg. Having to feed all those guys as a distributor.

[coastalmarker99]

Per 100 possessions (career):

37.1 pts on +4.0 rTS%
34.7 pts on +1.7 rTS%

3-year peak:
40.0 pts on + 7.3 rTS%
38.6 pts on +2.9 rTS%

Guess which one is LeBron and which one is Kobe.

[Airupthere]

The whole crux of lebrons argument is his efficiency. Late 90s to 2004 was the most brutal era to be efficient in because the paints were packed and guys were allowed to assault you. Honestly it was more fair back then... defense was allowed. But defense doesn't sell. So around 2006 they basically banned defense.

Lebron has played his entire playoff career in these conditions and then to top it off he's now playing in a spaced out 3pt format that would afford any star better numbers.

Kobe played half of his playoff career in the most brutal defensive era. Lebron played basically none. How is that not relevant?

And that's not even getting into conference disparity... 75% of Lebrons playoff games came against a garbage east. Anybody could run roughshod on scrubs especially when you build super teams. Imagine Kobes numbers if he teamed up with Duncan and Deron Williams in a conference where derrick rose, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Derozan, Paul millsap, and Al Horford were his toughest opponents. Joke.

Damn. This is pure ownage.

[eliteballer]

Per 100 possessions (career):

37.1 pts on +4.0 rTS%
34.7 pts on +1.7 rTS%

3-year peak:
40.0 pts on + 7.3 rTS%
38.6 pts on +2.9 rTS%

Guess which one is LeBron and which one is Kobe.

LeBrons a juicer on Super Teams, soft conferences, with soft rules.

[ScottieQuitting]

Damn. This is pure ownage.
Facts. All facts. LeStans hate and don’t understand context.

[ShawkFactory]

The whole crux of lebrons argument is his efficiency. Late 90s to 2004 was the most brutal era to be efficient in because the paints were packed and guys were allowed to assault you. Honestly it was more fair back then... defense was allowed. But defense doesn't sell. So around 2006 they basically banned defense.

Lebron has played his entire playoff career in these conditions and then to top it off he's now playing in a spaced out 3pt format that would afford any star better numbers.

Kobe played half of his playoff career in the most brutal defensive era. Lebron played basically none. How is that not relevant?

And that's not even getting into conference disparity... 75% of Lebrons playoff games came against a garbage east. Anybody could run roughshod on scrubs especially when you build super teams. Imagine Kobes numbers if he teamed up with Duncan and Deron Williams in a conference where derrick rose, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Derozan, Paul millsap, and Al Horford were his toughest opponents. Joke.

The only thing is that the superstars tended to end up just fine. Kobe, Iverson, Tmac, VC all scored. Super talents can adjust.

The people who were truly affected were the guys who weren't good enough to get free, i.e. the role players. That's why you had Kobe and Shaq taking almost 60% of the teams shots in the playoffs. That doesn't happen anymore because offense is easier for the lesser guys.

Things being more spaced out goes for everyone. While you wouldn't see a superstar non big shoot over 50% from the field very often in that era, you now don't often see superstars taking 25+ shots a game like you did then. It's a volume for efficiency trade-off.

So no, Lebron's efficiency wouldn't be AS great. But his numbers likely wouldn't take a dive like some suggest either.

[eliteballer]

The only thing is that the superstars tended to end up just fine. Kobe, Iverson, Tmac, VC all scored. Super talents can adjust.

The people who were truly affected were the guys who weren't good enough to get free, i.e. the role players. That's why you had Kobe and Shaq taking almost 60% of the teams shots in the playoffs. That doesn't happen anymore because offense is easier for the lesser guys.

Things being more spaced out goes for everyone. While you wouldn't see a superstar non big shoot over 50% from the field very often in that era, you now don't often see superstars taking 25+ shots a game like you did then. It's a volume for efficiency trade-off.

So no, Lebron's efficiency wouldn't be AS great. But his numbers likely wouldn't take a dive like some suggest either.
That’s total bs, superstars efficiency and overall numbers weren’t remotely like what they’ve been up in the last decade and a half.

[ShawkFactory]

That’s total bs, superstars efficiency and overall numbers weren’t remotely like what they’ve been up in the last decade and a half.

Efficiency yes...as I said. But in the playoffs the dudes I mentioned all had big volume numbers. Ray Allen even had 25/6/5 and 27/4/4 on pretty decent samples. Pierce had 27/9/7.

No, someone like Beal wouldn't score 30+ a game back then. But again..people who were good tend a) figure out how to adjust and b) take more shots in the playoffs because lesser guys couldn't do as much.

[tpols]

The only thing is that the superstars tended to end up just fine. Kobe, Iverson, Tmac, VC all scored. Super talents can adjust.

The people who were truly affected were the guys who weren't good enough to get free, i.e. the role players. That's why you had Kobe and Shaq taking almost 60% of the teams shots in the playoffs. That doesn't happen anymore because offense is easier for the lesser guys.

Things being more spaced out goes for everyone. While you wouldn't see a superstar non big shoot over 50% from the field very often in that era, you now don't often see superstars taking 25+ shots a game like you did then. It's a volume for efficiency trade-off.

So no, Lebron's efficiency wouldn't be AS great. But his numbers likely wouldn't take a dive like some suggest either.

His numbers ABSOLUTELY would take a dive. Lebron has spent his whole career surrounding himself with big men shooters ~ Big Z, Bosh, Love, Frye, AD, Jamison, etc. on top of perimeter guys Kyrie, Ray, Mike Miller, Korver, Boobie, Battier, and many more. His whole game is slashing to the rim. With no stretch 4s and 5s and a packed paint what is he going to do?

Lebron plays an elementary AAU QB style to achieve his numbers. Kobes teams always outranked him in assists because the triangle relied on ball movement. Which is high level basketball. Which is why he won more with less. Lebron could never win with just Bosh (Pau). He needed MVP Wade in the mix too. And then still underachieved.

In short, his numbers are fraudelent compared to Kobes because:

-soft rules era
-extreme spacing
-selfish QB style
-weak east competition for most of the numbers

That is what it is...

[Airupthere]

His numbers ABSOLUTELY would take a dive. Lebron has spent his whole career surrounding himself with big men shooters ~ Big Z, Bosh, Love, Frye, AD, Jamison, etc. on top of perimeter guys Kyrie, Ray, Mike Miller, Korver, Boobie, Battier, and many more. His whole game is slashing to the rim. With no stretch 4s and 5s and a packed paint what is he going to do?

Lebron plays an elementary AAU QB style to achieve his numbers. Kobes teams always outranked him in assists because the triangle relied on ball movement. Which is high level basketball. Which is why he won more with less. Lebron could never win with just Bosh (Pau). He needed MVP Wade in the mix too. And then still underachieved.

In short, his numbers are fraudelent compared to Kobes because:

-soft rules era
-extreme spacing
-selfish QB style
-weak east competition for most of the numbers

That is what it is...

Tpols, you just followed up one good post with an even better one :applause:

[FKAri]

I disagree and OP didn't provide a convincing argument.

[ShawkFactory]

His numbers ABSOLUTELY would take a dive. Lebron has spent his whole career surrounding himself with big men shooters ~ Big Z, Bosh, Love, Frye, AD, Jamison, etc. on top of perimeter guys Kyrie, Ray, Mike Miller, Korver, Boobie, Battier, and many more. His whole game is slashing to the rim. With no stretch 4s and 5s and a packed paint what is he going to do?

Lebron plays an elementary AAU QB style to achieve his numbers. Kobes teams always outranked him in assists because the triangle relied on ball movement. Which is high level basketball. Which is why he won more with less. Lebron could never win with just Bosh (Pau). He needed MVP Wade in the mix too. And then still underachieved.

In short, his numbers are fraudelent compared to Kobes because:

-soft rules era
-extreme spacing
-selfish QB style
-weak east competition for most of the numbers

That is what it is...

Learn to shoot before the age of 31. And then shoot more

It’s also funny how you’re acting like stretch 4s didn’t exist in 2002 :lol

[outofstomach]

That’s not entirely true. KJ was actually dinged up in those playoffs and that Finals. He still wasn’t bad.

Put up 18 ppg and 8 apg on 48% from the floor those playoffs. That’s with adding the second best player in the league and MVP to the team. The playoffs prior?

He put up 24 ppg and 12 apg on 48%. That’s a higher peak than anything my boy Kyrie has ever done for a playoff stretch.

In the 1993 Finals he put up 17 ppg and 7 apg

BUT was also guarded by MJ for long stretches at various times IIRC. And was facing a stifling perimeter defense with Armstrong, Mike and Scottie.

And in terms of totality as players, as much as I like Kyrie Irving, Kevin Johnson was the better all-around player. He scored at a high volume as well as distributed. And obviously also wasn’t a massive head case taking off extended pro long periods of a season for legit no reason.



:roll: :roll: :roll:

These two arguing basketball as if they know what they’re talking about. Good effing Lord. If I want Dungeons and Dragon advice I’ll go to these two.:lol

[outofstomach]

Learn to shoot before the age of 31. And then shoot more

It’s also funny how you’re acting like stretch 4s didn’t exist in 2002 :lol

so you acknowledge that lebron did in fact had to “learn to shoot” later in his career?

when kobe already had an extremely polished jumper coming into the league alone?

if lebron couldn’t sniff kobe’s jumper in the playoffs until he was more advanced in age (and also much more healthy might i add) how is he a better playoff scorer in totality?

it’s almost like… the thread title is a lie or something like that

[StrongLurk]

Lebron is a better playoff scorer than Kobe, but it's close.

[And1AllDay]

1a
1b

[tpols]

Learn to shoot before the age of 31. And then shoot more

It’s also funny how you’re acting like stretch 4s didn’t exist in 2002 :lol

Do you want to compare the 3pt numbers? They were far more prevalent on his teams than any team back then. And he had stretch 5s. Big Z, AD, and Frye have all played many playoff games at the 5 as well. Lakers best lineups were with Davis at the 5. That didn't exist back then.

And learn to shoot? He's played in the most regarded "learn to shoot" era ever. Lebron can't score high volume on jumpers. He needs to rim run to get his rhythm and confidence up. Rim running on Duncan, Garnett, and Dwight didn't work out for him, so doing it on 90s centers and packed paints would be hilarious.

[And1AllDay]

Do you want to compare the 3pt numbers? They were far more prevalent on his teams than any team back then. And he had stretch 5s. Big Z, AD, and Frye have all played many playoff games at the 5 as well. Lakers best lineups were with Davis at the 5. That didn't exist back then.

And learn to shoot? He's played in the most regarded "learn to shoot" era ever. Lebron can't score high volume on jumpers. He needs to rim run to get his rhythm and confidence up. Rim running on Duncan, Garnett, and Dwight didn't work out for him, so doing it on 90s centers and packed paints would be hilarious.

thurston is this you?


https://i.postimg.cc/pLzY88r0/92580848-2830148603748780-2873203073709244416-n.jpg

[Smoke117]

KJ averaged 15/7/2 with below average defense in the 93 Finals. If Kyrie averaged that vs the warriors they'd be swept everytime. But he went Wilt. KJs highest scoring season in his career was 22 ppg. I get he was a good player but kyrie can slash just like him but actually has a jumper. KJ didn't take a single 3pt shot vs the Bulls. Kyries shooting puts him way over the top. And he's one of the best point guard finishers ever up there with KJ and Tony Parker.

Kevin Johnson wasn't a great defender... Suns sucked on defense so I don't see how he's better overall when he doesn't have kyries offensive cieling (due to weak jumper)

KJ was hurt you stupid prick.

[SaintzFury13]

The Suns were fairly stacked but had injury issues. Kevin Johnson was injured when they had their Finals run in '93 and after that it was Barkley who got hurt every year & fell off quickly. The Rockets argument is weak when they were all well past their primes and had little chance of winning it all. They didn't have a Big 3 with one of them being in their prime/peak like all of Lebron's Big 3s have been at this point.

Just look at the All-NBA teams and how the vast majority of them played out West, so Lebron was guaranteed the Finals ever year and delivered to his credit. He had years of not facing any 50+ win teams or even average offenses en route to a Finals appearance while Kobe played 50-win teams in almost every round, which is why he beat the most 50+ win teams in league history.

LeBron faced countless 50 win teams during his time in the playoffs. In 2015 he had to go through two, including a 60 win team that his team swept without two of his all star teammates playing. In 2016, his team easily beat a 56 win Raptors team. In 2017, his team pulled off a gentlemen's sweep against a 50 win Boston Celtics team, including having a 40 point lead against them IN Boston at halftime in game 2. And then in 2018, he once again went up against two 50 win teams, the Raptors and the Celtics. The result? His team swept Toronto, who were one win shy of a 60 win season and took out Boston in seven, with his best teammate, Kevin Love, having a horrible series.

I mention this specific run because it's during this time frame that many considered LeBron's opponents before reaching the NBA Finals to be incredibly weak compared to what he would have had to deal with in the West. Now granted, it was weaker, but I want to make the point that these were in fact 50+ win teams that were in fact good, and in some cases they were VERY good. That 2015 Atlanta team was no joke, and the 2018 Celtics were incredibly deep and it's impressive how far they made it in the playoffs even without Irving. It's just a shame we couldn't see what LeBron with the Cavaliers could do against the new crop of teams that popped up the following season. The 76ers with Simmons, Butler, Harris, Embiid, the Raptors with Kawhi as well as Marc Gasol and Pascal Siakam blossoming into arguably their second best player, the Bucks with Giannis becoming an MVP player. That truly would have been the year to dispell the notion that LeBron couldn't make it to the finals if he had better playoff opponents. But, as we all know, it didn't exactly work out that way.

[Axe]

thurston is this you?


https://i.postimg.cc/pLzY88r0/92580848-2830148603748780-2873203073709244416-n.jpg
:yaohappy:

[HoopsNY]

KJ averaged 15/7/2 with below average defense in the 93 Finals. If Kyrie averaged that vs the warriors they'd be swept everytime. But he went Wilt. KJs highest scoring season in his career was 22 ppg. I get he was a good player but kyrie can slash just like him but actually has a jumper. KJ didn't take a single 3pt shot vs the Bulls. Kyries shooting puts him way over the top. And he's one of the best point guard finishers ever up there with KJ and Tony Parker.

Kevin Johnson wasn't a great defender... Suns sucked on defense so I don't see how he's better overall when he doesn't have kyries offensive cieling (due to weak jumper)

If KJ wasn't dishing the roc, he was scoring. Look at the two seasons he played where he averaged around 22.5 PPG. When his assist numbers are less than 8, he averages something like 25 PPG, excluding a few games where he played like 3-5 minutes.

KJ was as effective, if not more effective, than Kyrie. He had his team deep in the playoffs without an elite superstar teammate (granted Chambers was pretty solid but even when he fell off, the Suns were winning 50+ games).

[ShawkFactory]

Do you want to compare the 3pt numbers? They were far more prevalent on his teams than any team back then. And he had stretch 5s. Big Z, AD, and Frye have all played many playoff games at the 5 as well. Lakers best lineups were with Davis at the 5. That didn't exist back then.

And learn to shoot? He's played in the most regarded "learn to shoot" era ever. Lebron can't score high volume on jumpers. He needs to rim run to get his rhythm and confidence up. Rim running on Duncan, Garnett, and Dwight didn't work out for him, so doing it on 90s centers and packed paints would be hilarious.

It certainly worked. He had a couple terrible shooting series’ early but adjusted pretty well as things moved along.

And I think a big reason it was an issue early earlier on was because he just wasn’t used to it. He dominated physically all the time and when something different was thrown at him he wigged out.

Put him in an era where those type of defenses are more regular then maybe it isn’t such a problem.

[ImKobe]

LeBron faced countless 50 win teams during his time in the playoffs. In 2015 he had to go through two, including a 60 win team that his team swept without two of his all star teammates playing. In 2016, his team easily beat a 56 win Raptors team. In 2017, his team pulled off a gentlemen's sweep against a 50 win Boston Celtics team, including having a 40 point lead against them IN Boston at halftime in game 2. And then in 2018, he once again went up against two 50 win teams, the Raptors and the Celtics. The result? His team swept Toronto, who were one win shy of a 60 win season and took out Boston in seven, with his best teammate, Kevin Love, having a horrible series.

I mention this specific run because it's during this time frame that many considered LeBron's opponents before reaching the NBA Finals to be incredibly weak compared to what he would have had to deal with in the West. Now granted, it was weaker, but I want to make the point that these were in fact 50+ win teams that were in fact good, and in some cases they were VERY good. That 2015 Atlanta team was no joke, and the 2018 Celtics were incredibly deep and it's impressive how far they made it in the playoffs even without Irving. It's just a shame we couldn't see what LeBron with the Cavaliers could do against the new crop of teams that popped up the following season. The 76ers with Simmons, Butler, Harris, Embiid, the Raptors with Kawhi as well as Marc Gasol and Pascal Siakam blossoming into arguably their second best player, the Bucks with Giannis becoming an MVP player. That truly would have been the year to dispell the notion that LeBron couldn't make it to the finals if he had better playoff opponents. But, as we all know, it didn't exactly work out that way.

I agree on the last point. That's the issue though. How many superstars did Lebron face out east from 11-18? Just Rose & Melo in the early part of it in '11 & '12?

The Hawks had a nice RS team but 0 All-NBA players. The East had THREE total All-NBA players in 2015, two of them were on the Cavs and the other got injured in the same series that the Cavs were still a shot away from going down 1 - 3 in.

[ShawkFactory]

I agree on the last point. That's the issue though. How many superstars did Lebron face out east from 11-18? Just Rose & Melo in the early part of it in '11 & '12?

The Hawks had a nice RS team but 0 All-NBA players. The East had THREE total All-NBA players in 2015, two of them were on the Cavs and the other got injured in the same series that the Cavs were still a shot away from going down 1 - 3 in.

I actually agree with everything you said but the bolded statement has less impact when it’s Lebron who made the shot lol

[ImKobe]

I actually agree with everything you said but the bolded statement has less impact when it’s Lebron who made the shot lol

It was an incredible shot (Kobe-esque play), but it was way more likely he'd miss that shot and if he does then they're down 1 - 3 to a team with an injured Pau Gasol and a hobbled D.Rose which is crazy. The Bulls really shut him down for most of that series, holding him to below 40%FG and just 46%TS. Olynyk did injure Love in the 1st round though so it's not like the Cavs were at full strength but they still had two All-NBA players with one of them being prime Lebron vs. a massive underdog led by a past-prime Rose & a younger Butler, who just made his 1st All-Star game that year and didn't have all the tools he does now.

[warriorfan]

The late 90s and early 2000s weren't exactly a difficult era. It was to score loads of points maybe, but not necessarily to win.

There were only like 3 truly contending teams each year from 1999-2004. Sometimes less. Just like always.

Hey. What is the title of the thread? :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

It was an incredible shot (Kobe-esque play), but it was way more likely he'd miss that shot and if he does then they're down 1 - 3 to a team with an injured Pau Gasol and a hobbled D.Rose which is crazy. The Bulls really shut him down for most of that series, holding him to below 40%FG and just 46%TS. Olynyk did injure Love in the 1st round though so it's not like the Cavs were at full strength but they still had two All-NBA players with one of them being prime Lebron vs. a massive underdog led by a past-prime Rose & a younger Butler, who just made his 1st All-Star game that year and didn't have all the tools he does now.

You can say that about a LOT of shots though. I actually do this pretty frequently because I believe luck plays a bigger factor than people care to discuss.

How many series have been decided by a couple threes or random shots that each had a ~37% chance of going in. Or less

And when you go on a macro level let’s say there are 6 series that were really important that helped decide things between two guys. Sometimes if you flip a coin you’ll get what you want 5 of 6 times. Sometimes it’ll be 1 of 6.

I’m not saying this is the case with Kobe and Lebron but it’s a fact of nature that people ignore when it comes to ranking players or whatever. Luck is involved.

Like if Kobe hits the shot we’ve discussed I doubt you call it lucky even though there’s probably a 4% higher chance he makes it. If that

[SouBeachTalents]

You can say that about a LOT of shots though. I actually do this pretty frequently because I believe luck plays a bigger factor than people care to discuss.

How many series have been decided by a couple threes or random shots that each had a ~37% chance of going in. Or less

And when you go on a macro level let’s say there are 6 series that were really important that helped decide things between two guys. Sometimes if you flip a coin you’ll get what you want 5 of 6 times. Sometimes it’ll be 1 of 6.

I’m not saying this is the case with Kobe and Lebron but it’s a fact of nature that people ignore when it comes to ranking players or whatever. Luck is involved.

Like if Kobe hits the shot we’ve discussed I doubt you call it lucky even though there’s probably a 4% higher chance he makes it. If that
People don't like to acknowledge that totally random occurrences of luck decide a lot of these titles

[coastalmarker99]

The Suns were fairly stacked but had injury issues. Kevin Johnson was injured when they had their Finals run in '93 and after that it was Barkley who got hurt every year & fell off quickly. The Rockets argument is weak when they were all well past their primes and had little chance of winning it all. They didn't have a Big 3 with one of them being in their prime/peak like all of Lebron's Big 3s have been at this point.

Just look at the All-NBA teams and how the vast majority of them played out West, so Lebron was guaranteed the Finals ever year and delivered to his credit. He had years of not facing any 50+ win teams or even average offenses en route to a Finals appearance while Kobe played 50-win teams in almost every round, which is why he beat the most 50+ win teams in league history.

If you're going to make the HOF argument & disregard age, the current Lakers roster has 6 of them (AD, Russ, Bron, Howard, Melo & Gasol).









Neither Bosh nor Love were ever superstars, and furthermore and more importantly, the combo of Bosh, Love, Kyrie, and AD, had a combined 4 playoff berths in 23 combined seasons pre-LeBron, winning just one of those 4 series.



This is a group of guys people who hate Lebron gas up who never had any legacy of winning without him, these guys were putting up numbers on bad teams...

Wade had a winning legacy without Bron because he had another Top 10 GOAT next to him, his career without both Shaq and Bron shows us who he really was, in the Bosh/Kyrie/Love/Davis tier, except more like Davis, he wouldn't have done any high-level winning but he and AD coulda been HOF-level players still because of talent. In and of himself he's no great winner....

Shaq and LeBron pre-Wade were big winners, their careers without Wade clearly shows he benefitted more from both of their presences than the other way around....

[coastalmarker99]

Dude, Barkley just last week said that Lebron is not on MJ's and Kobe's level because he stacks his teams.


https://youtu.be/tLmqnpmz4xo

Charles Barkley is, and has been for years, clearly salty that he didn't win with any of his loaded rosters. And he should be, that's the competitor in him that'll never die, but it's inarguable this guy spent the bulk of his 16 years on loaded up squads or with multiple Famers. So he relies on hateing this era because his squads weren't good enough in the end...

That, and the fact that he was 0-3 in the playoffs vs Mike. Is it a shocker he always blowing Mike's dikk as GOAT? He could never beat him when it mattered, even in the years, Mike's Bulls didn't win the title...

[ImKobe]

You can say that about a LOT of shots though. I actually do this pretty frequently because I believe luck plays a bigger factor than people care to discuss.

How many series have been decided by a couple threes or random shots that each had a ~37% chance of going in. Or less

And when you go on a macro level let’s say there are 6 series that were really important that helped decide things between two guys. Sometimes if you flip a coin you’ll get what you want 5 of 6 times. Sometimes it’ll be 1 of 6.

I’m not saying this is the case with Kobe and Lebron but it’s a fact of nature that people ignore when it comes to ranking players or whatever. Luck is involved.

Like if Kobe hits the shot we’ve discussed I doubt you call it lucky even though there’s probably a 4% higher chance he makes it. If that

I'm obviously in the same boat. Many series & narratives have been changed by low-percentage shots or by a 80-90% FT shooter missing when it counted most in the end that led to a comeback win (looking at you, Manu & Kawhi).

It was an incredible shot for Lebron, something you really didn't expect from him at the time, especially with how the Bulls had shut him down at that point. He was 9/29 with 0/6 from 3 in the game at that point, arguably one of his worst Playoff games ever (the poor shooting + 8 TOs) but one made shot changed everything, that's how it works.

[ShawkFactory]

People don't like to acknowledge that totally random occurrences of luck decide a lot of these titles

Kawhi in 2019. What are the odds of that? That was the luckiest thing I’ve ever seen

[ImKobe]

Neither Bosh nor Love were ever superstars, and furthermore and more importantly, the combo of Bosh, Love, Kyrie, and AD, had a combined 4 playoff berths in 23 combined seasons pre-LeBron, winning just one of those 4 series.



This is a group of guys people who hate Lebron gas up who never had any legacy of winning without him, these guys were putting up numbers on bad teams...

Wade had a winning legacy without Bron because he had another Top 10 GOAT next to him, his career without both Shaq and Bron shows us who he really was, in the Bosh/Kyrie/Love/Davis tier, except more like Davis, he wouldn't have done any high-level winning but he and AD coulda been HOF-level players still because of talent. In and of himself he's no great winner....

Shaq and LeBron pre-Wade were big winners, their careers without Wade clearly shows he benefitted more from both of their presences than the other way around....

Wade CARRIED Shaq to his 4th championship. STOP IT.

[ShawkFactory]

I'm obviously in the same boat. Many series & narratives have been changed by low-percentage shots or by a 80-90% FT shooter missing when it counted most in the end that led to a comeback win (looking at you, Manu & Kawhi).

It was an incredible shot for Lebron, something you really didn't expect from him at the time, especially with how the Bulls had shut him down at that point. He was 9/29 with 0/6 from 3 in the game at that point, arguably one of his worst Playoff games ever (the poor shooting + 8 TOs) but one made shot changed everything, that's how it works.

Yea but you could also argue that because things were going poorly doesn’t mean they always were going to. The Bulls were lucky that Lebron shot so terribly before the game winner.

It goes both ways

[SouBeachTalents]

Neither Bosh nor Love were ever superstars, and furthermore and more importantly, the combo of Bosh, Love, Kyrie, and AD, had a combined 4 playoff berths in 23 combined seasons pre-LeBron, winning just one of those 4 series.



This is a group of guys people who hate Lebron gas up who never had any legacy of winning without him, these guys were putting up numbers on bad teams...

Wade had a winning legacy without Bron because he had another Top 10 GOAT next to him, his career without both Shaq and Bron shows us who he really was, in the Bosh/Kyrie/Love/Davis tier, except more like Davis, he wouldn't have done any high-level winning but he and AD coulda been HOF-level players still because of talent. In and of himself he's no great winner....

Shaq and LeBron pre-Wade were big winners, their careers without Wade clearly shows he benefitted more from both of their presences than the other way around....
You're a really good poster but that's a terrible take. Wade is TIERS above Kyrie/Bosh/Love, and was a legitimate ATG/BITW caliber player in his prime. He outscored Shaq by 10 ppg in the playoffs and by 20 in the Finals, so the "he had Shaq' argument is disingenuous. Shaq was obv still good in '06 but he was far removed from the dominant force he once was.

[coastalmarker99]

You're a really good poster but that's a terrible take. Wade is TIERS above Kyrie/Bosh/Love, and was a legitimate ATG/BITW caliber player in his prime. He outscored Shaq by 10 ppg in the playoffs and by 20 in the Finals, so the "he had Shaq' argument is disingenuous. Shaq was obv still good in '06 but he was far removed from the dominant force he once was.

Ok, my bad as I understand that my take about Wade was completely wrong.

[Replay32]

This shouldn't even be a thread. Lebron is one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Up there with Kareem, Wilt, MJ, Kobe, Malone, KD, and Iverson etc.

[lakerstekkenn]

It's close they are seriously close but Jordan wins & James gets the edge slightly in second Kobe is 3ird.

Michael Jordan highest points scored in the playoffs
63 56 55 55 55 54 50 50 49 49 48 48 47 47 46 46 46 46 46 45
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/michael-jordan-highest-points-scored-in-the-playoffs



Kobe highest points scored in the playoffs

50 49 48 45 45 43 42 42 41 40 40 40 40 39 39 39 39 39 38 38
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-highest-points-in-playoffs

Lebron James highest points in the playoffs
51 49 49 48 47 46 46 45 45 45 45 44 44 44 44 43 42 41 41 41
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-highest-points-in-playoffs

Kobe beats James in highest scoring games.

Kobe highest scoring games

81 65 62 61 60 60 58 56 55 53 53 53 52 52 52 51 51 51 51 50
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-highest-scoring-games


Lebron James highest points in games
61 57 56 55 52 52 51 51 51 51 51 50 48 47 47 47 47 46 46 46

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-highest-scoring-games

Kobe wins this one.

kobe bryant most three points in a regular-season games

12 9 9 9 8 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=kobe+bryant+most+three+points+in+a+regular-season+games


LeBron James most three points in a regular-season games

8 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-highest-points-per-game


kobe bryant most three points in playoffs games

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-most-three-points-in-playoffs-games


lebron james most three points in playoffs games

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-most-three-points-in-playoffs-games


These guys are so close in everything or most things it's crazy.

kobe bryant most assist in a games

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-most-assist-in-a-games

lebron james most assist in a games

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-most-assist-in-a-games



Have fun with the stat machine lookup.

Statmuse, it's additive and kinda cool.

[lakerstekkenn]

Wilt Chamberlain is ridiculous

wilt chamberlain most points scored in a regular season games

100 78 73 73 72 70 68 67 67 67 67 66 65 65 65 63 63 62 62 62

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/wilt-chamberlain-most-points-scored-in-a-regular-season-games

[lakerstekkenn]

Wilt in the playoffs came back to earth.


wilt chamberlain most points scored in playoff games
56 53 50 50 46 46 46 45 42 42 41 41 40 39 38 37 37 37 36 36

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/wilt-chamberlain-most-points-scored-in-playoff-games

[pestanec]

I created data visualization video so we can see who scored most playoff points each year starting from 1947. LeBron sits at no.1 spot with a huge margin.


https://youtu.be/XDpNEDe7FGk

[ScottieQuitting]

I created data visualization video so we can see who scored most playoff points each year starting from 1947. LeBron sits at no.1 spot with a huge margin.


https://youtu.be/XDpNEDe7FGk

Who cares about accumulative most points? How about average? That truly tells you who the best score was when they were there in the playoffs.

[LAL]

Why in the **** would anyone compare that opportunistic scorer to a guy like Kobe?? Losers :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

I created data visualization video so we can see who scored most playoff points each year starting from 1947. LeBron sits at no.1 spot with a huge margin.


https://youtu.be/XDpNEDe7FGk

Amazing work, beautiful :applause:

LeGoat stays winning

[TheCorporation]

Who cares about accumulative most points? How about average? That truly tells you who the best score was when they were there in the playoffs.

Why reward 1st round stat padders? No thanks. Sorry MJ didn't win more playoff series, he won less.

[Rysio]

How about scoring when it matters most aka championship runs
Lebron 12,13,16,20 88 games
30 point games: 33
35 point games: 11
40 point games: 5

Kobe 01,02,09,10 81 games
30 point games: 42
35 point games: 18
40 point games: 7

[kennygriffin]

Amazing work, beautiful :applause:

LeGoat stays winning

total points in the playoffs isn't an accomplishment. it just exposes how many times you failed lol

hes gonna end up with double the playoff points of anyone and still have zero rings without colluding, steroids bail outs, suspensions and shortened seasons.

[8Ball]

I created data visualization video so we can see who scored most playoff points each year starting from 1947. LeBron sits at no.1 spot with a huge margin.


https://youtu.be/XDpNEDe7FGk

Wow 4 year old account and 1 post only?


With this post you are the real MVP!

[8Ball]

Amazing work, beautiful :applause:

LeGoat stays winning

He surpassed Jordan in 2016 too....

Playoff monster.


When And1allday keeps posting the #7631 I understand it now. It's too hard to rack up that many post season points unless you win win win year in year out for 17 years.

[3ba11]

Lebron is nowhere near Kobe as a scorer, just like Shaq wasn't anywhere near Kobe as a scorer

Anyone that watches these playoff highlights from 2009 and thinks Lebron is anywhere near Kobe as a scorer, simply doesn't know basketball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQoQ4xYzTU

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron is nowhere near Kobe as a scorer, just like Shaq wasn't anywhere near Kobe as a scorer

Anyone that watches these playoff highlights from 2009 and thinks Lebron is anywhere near Kobe as a scorer, simply doesn't know basketball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQoQ4xYzTU
Nowhere near Kobe as a scorer

2009

LeBron: 35 ppg on 62%TS on 22 FGA
Kobe: 30 ppg on 56%TS on 23 FGA