As loosely as it’s called is there any good reason for the carry to even exist?

[Kblaze8855]

Before refs got more lenient in the favor of exciting styles of play this is how the game was called:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzyCloseEelelephant-size_restricted.gif





That was a carry. That was called a carry when I was a kid. It’s exactly why you watch old clips and think guys had no handles. Guys with incredible ball control and protection look dated because of the Cousy style dribbling being mocked here by a trainer actually teaching kids to carry because refs won’t call it anymore:





https://youtu.be/ZoRJQ1PL7S8





And obviously he’s right. If they don’t call it why limit your effectiveness? He calls it “evolution” but it’s really just rewriting the rules on the fly. And if you do that…why not literally change the rules?



It’s the only thing that stopped bigs like KD, Giannis, and Lebron from being ball handlers in the past. Hands too big and they stand too tall to protect it without either posting up or carrying to change direction and keep control. Can’t get low like an Isiah and dribble it 6 times a second so they cover more ground per dribble by getting under it for a carry/travel combo.

If you called it like 2021 in 1975 Doctor J would have been unstoppable in the half court. Plenty of mobile bigs could be quasi wings with no rule enforcement.

And when you give that extra freedom to guys who really don’t need it like Kyrie, Steph, Harden, prime IT(who Hoiberg said would do it on literally every touch) and so on there’s almost nothing you can do.


Call it like today 20 years ago? Pau Gasol would have taken guys off the dribble:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistantDismalGander-size_restricted.gif





I saw KD called for one a while back and he had carried about 4 times that play before they called it then they ignored it the rest of the game. It’s like Karl Malone admitted he did with fouls. Just foul so often refs raise the standard for what a foul is. They won’t foul anyone out in the first quarter. So hit someone every time.

Its sound strategy even if also scummy. So I’m not calling guys stupid for doing it….by all means do what the league allows to help your team.


In just asking….once you refuse to call it why leave it in there? At least the tried to address it with the bullshit “zero step” to explain away travels.

The carries don’t even get that. I guess once everyone over 30-35 is dead nobody will remember them existing in the first place so the coast will be clear.

I just wish we could bring some of the old super athletes to this era to see what the freedom does for them. You’ll never see me say Giannis, KD, Lebron, Simmons, and so on are garbage or anything dumb like that….it just isn’t what used to be allowed….even though the rules are exactly the same.

Ralph Sampson might literally be a 7’4” point forward under these conditions.

[Bay Area Baller]

What are you smoking shrooms. Do it right and tell us what you think. This is an obvious no call in today's game, and should grant the ball carrier the right to high dribble, unlike your high self.

[Bay Area Baller]

Don't worry my man Kblaze is smoking shrooms and hasn't figured out how to do it right yet. That's an obvious no call. Let the player dribble. Don't worry it has no effect because he hasn't figured out the Warriors have won 3 times in the last decade. He is shook that a pg like Curry has dominanated the game and he is looking for ways to cope. Lol jk kblaze.

[90sgoat]

Carry makes it too difficult to defend dribbles.

Before the carry rule changes, dribbling required way faster decision making and was all about quick fakes.

Look at Tim Hardaway doing the crossovers with no carry or MJ doing the thriple threat fakes.

Different styles, but overall I feel the old rules were better for the game, because they made it ineffective to pound the ball, you couldn't break an ankle from a standstill.

Here is Grant Hill crossing Pippen with a very basic, but very effective cross, that uses fakes, head goes one way, body goes the other:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjUoYkgB5Mc

[Bay Area Baller]

Go ahead logon to one of your alts and tell us all the ways you've been shrooming in the last decade and how your thread still has merit. Those are obviously not travels and are being called correctly in today's modern game. You are so high right now pass us some of the good stuff but do it right and make us the tea, we're all ears as to what your psycadelic point was. Jk man good videos.

[Kblaze8855]

Grant was one of the first post Magic big points who took advantage of new rules. Much more legal than today’s big wings of course but he’s the first I ever saw just walking up the court spinning it in his palm like KD does backing down. It was an nba tv commercial and I couldn’t believe they used it as a positive. By the Giannis/KD standard he was barely even a transgressor though.

[90sgoat]

Grant was one of the first post Magic big points who took advantage of new rules. Much more legal than today’s big wings of course but he’s the first I ever saw was up the court spinning it in his palm like KD does backdown down. It was an nba tv commercial and I couldn’t believe they used it as a positive. By the Giannis/KD standard he was barely even a transgressor though.

I agree, actually I didn't want to post it because this is sort of a modern crossover, but to me, this is an acceptable crossover with the rules I was taught.

Iverson was the first to legit carry in the crossover as far as I recall.

[kennygriffin]

street ball players would take over the nba. it would be nba street basically

[Kblaze8855]

street ball players would take over the nba. it would be nba street basically


James Harden works out with the one of most flagrantly illegal iso ball handlers from and 1. He incorporates moves from and 1. He and Bone collector swap moves.

[Kblaze8855]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImaginativeSerpentineBlackwidowspider-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SharpWetAssassinbug-size_restricted.gif




^Harden and bone collector working out. This is bone collector if you forgot your early 2000s mixtape era:


https://youtu.be/527vjbfSItU

[Jasper]

When I was in School (early 70's) it was a violation.... today if Giannis did not do it , he would not be able to take three strides across a half court for a dunk.
Harden would never have a delayed back step.

[tpols]

Its hilarious because you praise guys today whose whole offensive games are about putting their hands directly under the ball, and then taking 3-4 steps to finish rife with flopping on the way for free throws.

I support old school jumpshooters, rules, and basketball.

[eliteballer]

Come on, you really think Jordan would be Jordan if he had to dribble like they did in the 50's and 60's?

[Kblaze8855]

You don’t even know the games of some of the people you support most. Especially the “old school” ones.

Me….I don’t let my support or dislike of anyone’s games get in the way of what’s real. On the whole all the people I mentioned are obviously great players. They also carry all day. The two things are not mutually exclusive. At some point when the refs don’t acknowledge it not breaking the rules just makes you an idiot who wants to lose to everyone else.

My issue is with the rules themselves not the people playing a way the league obviously is fine with. I don’t like Hardens style….but he’d be an idiot to not travel, flop, and extend his arms on drives when the nba decided to allow it.

I can not like it till the end of time. He’s trying to win. If he’s effective my feelings don’t mean anything to the real world.

[Smoke117]

When you were a kid 7 up was still popular, nikka. You old as fukk.

[Kblaze8855]

Come on, you really think Jordan would be Jordan if he had to dribble like they did in the 50's and 60's?


Nobody who came up in the 80s and after would. Jordan had the big hands issue too. When your hand is 60% of the ball it’s hard to change direction in traffic without a mild carry. He was more prone to the footwork travel though out of sheer speed.

But he nor most anyone of the time had illegal actions as a core part of his game. You could argue Shaq dislodging but I feel like intent is part of it….it’s like calling a foul on a bigger kid who hits people like they hit him….but is stronger than they are. Guys would foul the shit outta shaq and sometimes not even get a whistle when it’s a flagrant on most others. Hard to say it all went his way.

[Smoke117]

Nobody who came up in the 80s and after would. Jordan had the big hands issue too. When your hand is 60% of the ball it’s hard to change direction in traffic without a mild carry. He was more prone to the footwork travel though out of sheer speed.

But he nor most anyone of the time had illegal actions as a core part of his game. You could argue Shaq dislodging but I feel like intent is part of it….it’s like calling a foul on a bigger kid who hits people like they hit him….but is stronger than they are. Guys would foul the shit outta shaq and sometimes not even get a whistle when it’s a flagrant on most others. Hard to say it all went his way.

What is supposed to be a legit dribble is just boring basketball. Players have taken it to a new level these days, though. Giannis pretty much travels every time he puts the ball on the floor and because he’s so long and athletic he gets to the rim at will. It’s not skill, though, but taking advantage of the so called “rules”.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Definitely not. It seems like it's called like once every 7-8 games when the ref is in a bad mood or isn't familiar with the player who is dribbling. Completely pointless "rule" even though guys get away with it constantly all season anyway.

[Smoke117]

Definitely not. It seems like it's called like once every 7-8 games when the ref is in a bad mood or isn't familiar with the player who is dribbling. Completely pointless "rule" even though guys get away with it constantly all season anyway.

Kawhit is basically the biggest offender ever in this regard. If he played by the rules he’d average 11.7 ppl on 41%fg.

[Kblaze8855]

What is supposed to be a legit dribble is just boring basketball. Players have taken it to a new level these days, though. Giannis pretty much travels every time he puts the ball on the floor and because he’s so long and athletic he gets to the rim at will. It’s not skill, though, but taking advantage of the so called “rules”.

Well yes following the rules would make the game less entertaining. I absolutely agree. But here is my issue….



Soccer. If not for offsides? If defenders had to guard forwards no matter where they were because they could be passed to them regardless of the defenders position? They would spread out….essentially create spacing….produce dozens of one on one situations with exciting moves and attacks….also?

It wouldn’t be soccer.

Its supposed to be difficult to score.

Making it easier would be more exciting….and make it a different game.

When you drop the rules that govern movement for the sake of excitement….are the players still playing basketball?

If not….why not remove the rule? Why arbitrarily call it once every 4 months when when offender did it 34 times that game?

The rules need a revamp.

[sdot_thadon]

It is still basketball imo, but like you said it's hampering anyone from the 80s on down to the present. Would the game be as popular right now without it? Who knows, but there is a generation of us that fell in love with the game watching Mj and Co fly to the basket using moves that West and Robertson weren't allowed to. I'm sure exciting guys would still be a thrill to watch, but perhaps to a lesser degree. But as a butterfly effect maybe the game never devolves into 1 on 1 glorified versions we had, maybe team ball stays the way to play the game all these years....

[iamgine]

Well, it's like defensive 3 seconds. Refs today would only call this after 5 seconds or more. But clearly the rule is still useful as you can't just blatantly do it. If there's no carry rule, guys would just hold the ball for 2 seconds after every dribble.

[Druckenmiller]

The NBA would allow half the players to never dribble at all if that’s what they wanted to do ... its all about optics, and fans want to believe the players are superhuman and the league doesn’t want to embarrass the players with an application of the rules.

That’s why they called one or two 10 second calls on Giannis, but otherwise let him take all the time he needed for the other 150 free throws he took in the playoffs. I always wondered if he consistently went to the line and took two minutes instead of 20 seconds if they would have let that go as well.

NBA refs call a couple travels and a carry per week on some scrub bench guy just to keep up appearances. Otherwise everyone gets to do whatever they want.

[outofstomach]

What are you smoking shrooms. Do it right and tell us what you think. This is an obvious no call in today's game, and should grant the ball carrier the right to high dribble, unlike your high self.

you don’t smoke shrooms…

[outofstomach]

James Harden works out with the one of most flagrantly illegal iso ball handlers from and 1. He incorporates moves from and 1. He and Bone collector swap moves.

harden has used and 1 moves in game before? i don’t recall ever seeing it

[tpols]

The NBA would allow half the players to never dribble at all if that’s what they wanted to do ... its all about optics, and fans want to believe the players are superhuman and the league doesn’t want to embarrass the players with an application of the rules.

That’s why they called one or two 10 second calls on Giannis, but otherwise let him take all the time he needed for the other 150 free throws he took in the playoffs. I always wondered if he consistently went to the line and took two minutes instead of 20 seconds if they would have let that go as well.

NBA refs call a couple travels and a carry per week on some scrub bench guy just to keep up appearances. Otherwise everyone gets to do whatever they want.

Yup... In the nets bucks series the fans would slow count to 11 or 12 to mock giannis and the refs let it go every time. Maybe once they called it when I wasn't looking? 99% of the time they let him blatantly break the rules to look good.Traveling, palming, offensive fouling, and FT violations committed to conserve energy and waste time. Literally is the WWE. The preferential treatment for certain star players is absolutely insane.

Its like how rich kids can commit heinous crimes and get off on affluenza.

Rigged....

[j3lademaster]

Absolutely not. Just take carrying out of the rulebook at this point.

Carrying has also created a decline in steal stats. Giannis would be called for a travel or get it stolen every possession if he can't carry and travel. He'd be relegated to playing like a traditional big man(and still be exceptional doing that). But on the other hand, Giannis also gets to handcheck and camp the paint. An already all-nba defender will get even better.

[97 bulls]

I have this argument with my son all the time. When people say the leage is more skilled today, I have to disagree, the game has changed. Players are allowed to get away with things they couldn't get away with in the past. That why I constantly say you can't compare stats across eras. It's dumb. I remember Bob Cousey saying that what was considered an assist in the 80s wouldn't have been an assist in his time. And an assist today is even awarded more liberally than it was in the past. The game is different.

[Kblaze8855]

Yup... In the nets bucks series the fans would slow count to 11 or 12 to mock giannis and the refs let it go every time. Maybe once they called it when I wasn't looking? 99% of the time they let him blatantly break the rules to look good.Traveling, palming, offensive fouling, and FT violations committed to conserve energy and waste time. Literally is the WWE. The preferential treatment for certain star players is absolutely insane.

Its like how rich kids can commit heinous crimes and get off on affluenza.

Rigged....


They don’t call it on anyone. Not the dribbling violations or the ft. Tom Haberstroh had a researcher on a podcast who said they checked everyone’s average time and Giannis isn’t even the longest. It was some role player I don’t even remember. Shortest in the nba was Bryn Forbes. Longest was that role player who was near 13 seconds. Giannis was one of several in the 12 range. They had a ref explain the problem is there’s no standard way to count. Some do 1 one thousand or 1 Mississippi or whatever and when you count it out there’s a huge discrepancy from ref to ref but nobodies count averages the actual 10 seconds.


And now that I actually thought for a second I do remember the longest. It’s Montrez because of his goofy refusal to be handed the ball. It has to be bounced in front of him and it makes his average time way over the line.

Refs just don’t care. Refs don’t care about any rule that would prevent points being scored if enforced.

[Druckenmiller]

My favorite is the guy who is in ref central that the broadcast crew will bring in to cover up for whatever Trash the crew on the floor is up to.

Someone could pick up the ball and run to the parking lot with it and if the refs said it was a legal play that pimp would get on the air and defend them.

The whole thing is more orchestrated and dumber than a Daytime Soap. Give this league five more years and they’ll be interviewing the players baby momma in the stands for ratings.

[Kblaze8855]

My favorite is the guy who is in ref central that the broadcast crew will bring in to cover up for whatever Trash the crew on the floor is up to.

Someone could pick up the ball and run to the parking lot with it and if the refs said it was a legal play that pimp would get on the air and defend them.

The whole thing is more orchestrated and dumber than a Daytime Soap. Give this league five more years and they’ll be interviewing the players baby momma in the stands for ratings.





The offensive player gathers with his right foot on the ground. He then takes two legal steps, before losing control of the ball. After regaining possession, a player is allowed to regain his pivot foot and pass or shoot prior to that foot returning to the ground. This is legal.

^
Official nba ref Twitter explanation for this:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzyCoarseChameleon-size_restricted.gif





not being a violation of any kind.

[Gohan]

Existence was pain for iverson when he first came into the league

[DoctorP]

why does defense even exist?

[Druckenmiller]

To be fair, I think the way the game has devolved during the regular season has made the playoffs more popular.

The average regular season game looks like what an all star game looked like 20 years ago. Guys chucking the first 3 they see, defenders getting out of the way and turning the lane into a layup line and anything resembling physicality being treated by the refs like a homicide investigation.

The playoffs come and basketball starts to look a little more like basketball. It’s not perfect. But it sure isnt that regular season trash.

The NBA eventually is going to have to find a balance between junkyard dog basketball of previous eras with scores in the 70s, and the Washington Generals defense era of today.

[DoctorP]

To be fair, I think the way the game has devolved during the regular season has made the playoffs more popular.

The average regular season game looks like what an all star game looked like 20 years ago. Guys chucking the first 3 they see, defenders getting out of the way and turning the lane into a layup line and anything resembling physicality being treated by the refs like a homicide investigation.

The playoffs come and basketball starts to look a little more like basketball. It’s not perfect. But it sure isnt that regular season trash.

The NBA eventually is going to have to find a balance between junkyard dog basketball of previous eras with scores in the 70s, and the Washington Generals defense era of today.

agreed.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhit is basically the biggest offender ever in this regard. If he played by the rules he’d average 11.7 ppl on 41%fg.

Durant carrys the ball like 3 or 4x more then kawhi from what i've seen.