Greatest Rings of All-Time

[HoopsNY]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016
2- Dirk 2011
3- Duncan 2003
4- Hakeem 1994
5- Frazier 1970
6- Barry 1975
7- MJ 1993
8- Pistons 2004 (collective)
9- Williams 1979
10- Walton 1977

I might change my opinion based on what some of you say, but this is just off the top of my head.

LeBron and the Cavs run in 2016 was impressive solely because of what he was able to do (leading in all five major statistical categories) by beating a 73 win team with the unanimous MVP for his opponent.

Dirk stands out because his road was incredibly difficult, coupled with the fact that the Mavs beat a super-team in addition to Miami having HCA.

Duncan's was incredibly difficult given the carry job that he did and beating Shaq/Kobe.

Frazier's is impressive given Willis Reed's injury and beating a super-team in LA, not to mention putting up something like 36/7/19 in game 6.

MJ's was impressive due to the dog fight that they had against the Knicks in 6 games and then going off for 41 PPG despite not having HCA, as well as Pippen playing on a bad ankle for the entire season.

Barry's ring is severely underrated!

What is everyone else's top 10?

[3ba11]

.
Titles with super-teams or equal-scoring partners (1b's) are immediately disqualified:


1) 93' Jordan
2) 98' Jordan
3) 97' Jordan
4) 91' Jordan
5) 92' Jordan
6) 09' Kobe
7) 10' Kobe
8) 11' Dirk
9) 19' Kawhi
10) 96' Jordan

[Bankaii]

.
Titles with super-teams or equal-scoring partners (1b's) are immediately disqualified:


1) 93' Jordan
2) 98' Jordan
3) 97' Jordan
4) 91' Jordan
5) 92' Jordan
6) 09' Kobe
7) 10' Kobe
8) 11' Dirk
9) 19' Kawhi
10) 96' Jordan
Jordan/Kobe had a top 3 supporting cast in the league every year they won. What year did either to overcome a talent discrepancy?
Lmao at putting any of their rings over Hakeem, Dirk, or 2003 Duncan.

[HoopsNY]

.
Titles with super-teams or equal-scoring partners (1b's) are immediately disqualified:


1) 93' Jordan
2) 98' Jordan
3) 97' Jordan
4) 91' Jordan
5) 92' Jordan
6) 09' Kobe
7) 10' Kobe
8) 11' Dirk
9) 19' Kawhi
10) 96' Jordan

Don't you have another Pippen thread to make?

[RRR3]

Don't you have another Pippen thread to make?
:oldlol:


I must say OP you set yourself by ranking LeBron not only over MJ but first overall. He was never gonna let that slide.


Not sure about Gus Williams 1979, wasn’t that Sonics team more of a collective? I know he was really good in his prime though.


Surely 94 Hakeem should be here too. Forgot him?

[HoopsNY]

:oldlol:


I must say OP you set yourself by ranking LeBron not only over MJ but first overall. He was never gonna let that slide.


Not sure about Gus Williams 1979, wasn’t that Sonics team more of a collective? I know he was really good in his prime though.


Surely 94 Hakeem should be here too. Forgot him?

I put Williams there because it was really unexpected. Williams really turned up in that playoffs, averaging 19 PPG in the regular season to 27 PPG in the playoffs (and 29 PPG in the finals).

I did put Hakeem on the list. He's #4 on my list.

[Mauzah]

I don't think the Bulls get enough credit for their 1991 ring. Basically back to back championship matches to get their ring, first the Pistons then Lakers properly in the finals. If any of those three teams had won that year no one would have thought twice about it.

[3ba11]

Jordan/Kobe had a top 3 supporting cast in the league every year they won. What year did either to overcome a talent discrepancy?
Lmao at putting any of their rings over Hakeem, Dirk, or 2003 Duncan.


A hobbled Worthy nearly matched Pippen in the 91' Finals, while Vlade/Perkins both averaged 17/9 and destroyed Horace..

Worthy was all-nba that year, while Pippen wasn't an all-star and was only known for choking up to that point.. The Lakers were 9-time Finals participants, while the Bulls were a team of 1st timers and the only 1st timers to win until the 15' Warriors won.

The talent deficit is why Jordan had to average 31 and nearly out-assist Magic - Jordan is the only guy in history that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at PG.

And the 93' Suns or 96' Sonics had 3 all-stars and nearly equal defenses - only the Jazz didn't have more talent than the Bulls, but they had a long-term organic brand that destroyed Popovich/Duncan and Shaq's 4 all-star lakers.

[HoopsNY]

I don't think the Bulls get enough credit for their 1991 ring. Basically back to back championship matches to get their ring, first the Pistons then Lakers properly in the finals. If any of those three teams had won that year no one would have thought twice about it.

I thought about the '91 team, but the help MJ got from guys like Pippen, Grant, and Paxson can't be overstated. Grant shot 63% in that series and Paxson shot 65%. I think Paxson had set an all-time record for consecutive FGs made between games 2-3 or 3-4 IIRC.

It was a decisive victory too and while MJ's performance can definitely be ranked as one of the greatest all time for a finals, I don't think the entire road+finals is necessarily up there, but maybe it belongs above Williams and Walton.

[3ba11]

I thought about the '91 team, but the help MJ from guys like Pippen, Grant, and Paxson can't be overstated. Grant shot 63% in that series and Paxson shot 65%. I think Paxson had set an all-time record for consecutive FGs made between games 2-3 or 3-4 IIRC.

It was a decisive victory too and while MJ's performance can definitely be ranked as one of the greatest all time for a finals, I don't think the entire road+finals is necessarily up there, but maybe it belongs above Williams and Walton.


Rings without super-teams or 1b's > rings with super-teams and 1b's

it's intuitive

Jordan averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick in every Finals - no one is anywhere near that - 6 carry-jobs - he carried a team of defensive role players to 6 chips

[HoopsNY]

Rings without super-teams or 1b's > rings with super-teams and 1b's

it's intuitive

Sorry but none of MJ's titles were as impressive as Dirk's '11, Duncan's, '03, Hakeem's '94, or LeBron's '16. Live with it.

[3ba11]

Sorry but none of MJ's titles were as impressive as Dirk's '11, Duncan's, '03, Hakeem's '94, or LeBron's '16. Live with it.


It's statistical fact that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs than Dirk's 11 ring:


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Good thread.

Agree with most of the names and their placement. '93 Mike should be higher though. He averaged 41/9/6 on 50 percent shooting, and outscored Pippen by like 20 points. The Bulls also faced a better finals team than '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan.

Shaq's 2000 ring should get an honorable mention. Kobe played hurt in that finals, and Shaq averaged damn near 40.

[SouBeachTalents]

In no order, limiting it to one player each

1. 1967 Wilt
2. 1975 Barry
3. 1977 Walton
4. 1984 Bird
5. 1991 Jordan
6. 1995 Hakeem
7. 2000 Shaq
8. 2003 Duncan
9. 2011 Dirk
10. 2016 LeBron

[kennygriffin]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016
2- Dirk 2011
3- Duncan 2003
4- Hakeem 1994
5- Frazier 1970
6- Barry 1975
7- MJ 1993
8- Pistons 2004 (collective)
9- Williams 1979
10- Walton 1977

I might change my opinion based on what some of you say, but this is just off the top of my head.

LeBron and the Cavs run in 2016 was impressive solely because of what he was able to do (leading in all five major statistical categories) by beating a 73 win team with the unanimous MVP for his opponent.

Dirk stands out because his road was incredibly difficult, coupled with the fact that the Mavs beat a super-team in addition to Miami having HCA.

Duncan's was incredibly difficult given the carry job that he did and beating Shaq/Kobe.

Frazier's is impressive given Willis Reed's injury and beating a super-team in LA, not to mention putting up something like 36/7/19 in game 6.

MJ's was impressive due to the dog fight that they had against the Knicks in 6 games and then going off for 41 PPG despite not having HCA, as well as Pippen playing on a bad ankle for the entire season.

Barry's ring is severely underrated!

What is everyone else's top 10?


how can #1 come with a bail out series winning 3 by a teammate on a colluded big 3 while calling adam silver to suspend the other teams MVP lol

and kyrie carried the cavs to their first 3 wins too

cavs first victory:

0-2 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 12 ft
0-4 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft
0-6 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft
4-13 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
4-19 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
6-21 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 20 ft
8-23 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 18 ft
10-25+2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 13 ft
10-30+3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 24 ft
13-33+3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 27 ft

game over... cavs never looked back


----------------------------



cavs 2nd victory tied 61-61 at half time

K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft +2 63-61
L. James makes 3-pt shot from 26 ft +3 67-64
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 9 ft +2 69-66
L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim +2 71-66
K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 26 ft +3 74-66
L. James makes 2-pt shot from 2 ft +2 77-71
K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by L. James) +3 80-73
L. James makes 3-pt shot from 25 ft +3 89-80
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 9 ft +2 95-87
L. James makes 2-pt shot from 16 ft +2 97-88
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 8 ft +2 101-92
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 8 ft +2 104-96
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 14 ft +2 106-96
K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 26 ft +3 109-96


game over.. cavs never looked back



-----------------------



cavs 3rd victory

0-4 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 13 ft
0-6 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
0-8 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot from 3 ft
2-11 +3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft
2-13 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
7-20 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 18 ft
9-26 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft
13-34 +3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 27 ft
18-37 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 17 ft
26-43 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot at rim


game over ... cavs never looked back



kyrie scored 51 points in key moments
lebron scored 26 points in key moments

[3ba11]

how can #1 come with a bail out series winning 3 by a teammate on a colluded big 3 while calling adam silver to suspend the other teams MVP lol

and kyrie carried the cavs to their first 3 wins too

cavs first victory:

0-2 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 12 ft
0-4 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft
0-6 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft
4-13 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
4-19 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
6-21 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 20 ft
8-23 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 18 ft
10-25+2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 13 ft
10-30+3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 24 ft
13-33+3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 27 ft

game over... cavs never looked back


----------------------------



cavs 2nd victory tied 61-61 at half time

K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft +2 63-61
L. James makes 3-pt shot from 26 ft +3 67-64
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 9 ft +2 69-66
L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim +2 71-66
K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 26 ft +3 74-66
L. James makes 2-pt shot from 2 ft +2 77-71
K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by L. James) +3 80-73
L. James makes 3-pt shot from 25 ft +3 89-80
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 9 ft +2 95-87
L. James makes 2-pt shot from 16 ft +2 97-88
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 8 ft +2 101-92
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 8 ft +2 104-96
K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 14 ft +2 106-96
K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 26 ft +3 109-96


game over.. cavs never looked back



-----------------------



cavs 3rd victory

0-4 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 13 ft
0-6 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
0-8 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot from 3 ft
2-11 +3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft
2-13 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim
7-20 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 18 ft
9-26 +2 L. James makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft
13-34 +3 K. Irving makes 3-pt shot from 27 ft
18-37 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot from 17 ft
26-43 +2 K. Irving makes 2-pt shot at rim


game over ... cavs never looked back



kyrie scored 51 points in key moments
lebron scored 26 points in key moments


Facts gonna facts..

And Kyrie is a true star, so he dropped 40 in Game 4 of the 17' Finals to save the Cavs from getting swept by record amount (while Lebron was 2nd option).. True stars can always win a game by themselves

[Bankaii]

Facts gonna facts..

And Kyrie is a true star, so he dropped 40 in Game 4 of the 17' Finals to save the Cavs from getting swept by record amount (while Lebron was 2nd option).. True stars can always win a game by themselves
So 23 year old MJ wasn’t a star in 1987?

[Stephonit]

2015 Warriors

- longest odds of any eventual champion at the start of the season in at least 20 years
- a roster of ingenues none of whom had ever been in a finals
- first-time coach
- highest paid player on the team wasn't available for much of the playoffs
- strong 67-win season
- faced the highest seeds possible on their path
- led by an All-NBA First Team player they faced and beat every other player chosen for the All-NBA First Team

[Reggie43]

1.1994 Hakeem
2. 2000 Shaq

[And1AllDay]

after 2016 of course?

https://i.postimg.cc/XJsf5ck6/zw-LQ-38992-wyx-LXR-9834-DL.png


hmmm....i hafta say either

prob 94' hakeem, 11' dirk, 03' duncan, 10' kobe or 13' bran

[Axe]

I don't think the Bulls get enough credit for their 1991 ring. Basically back to back championship matches to get their ring, first the Pistons then Lakers properly in the finals. If any of those three teams had won that year no one would have thought twice about it.
I think the results would have been different if the flagrant foul wasn't implemented during 1990.

[Gohan]

Iverson 2001 finals vs lakers

How in the hell did shaq and kobe beat the juggernaut iverson?

[8Ball]

after 2016 of course?

https://i.postimg.cc/XJsf5ck6/zw-LQ-38992-wyx-LXR-9834-DL.png


hmmm....i hafta say either

prob 94' hakeem, 11' dirk, 03' duncan, 10' kobe or 13' bran


Hakeem 94 played a bum team in the finals. Great performance though. Good playoff run.

[8Ball]

This thread hurts 3ball.

He realizes Jordan never had to play against a super team and his 90s rings are discounted vs other historical rings.


The 2016 ring will be the most valuable ring of all time if Bron was to sell it at an auction. More valuable than all his other rings, more valuable than any 1 ring Jordan would put up for auction side by side.

[Jasper]

I have to say Giannis as an organic winner , finishing the day with 50 point (I have this jump on my back -got this qualifies)

Jordans 6 rings all have special meaning.
Lakers first with Shaq
Houston w/Akeem as well as Malone
Knicks with Reed

[8Ball]

Giannis was great but he didn't face any great teams. If he has taken down a 73 win team or the brooklyn 3 healthy it would be all time ring.

Great rings = great performances vs all time teams.

[Manny98]

1. LeBron (2016) needs its own documentry
2. Mavs (2011) biggest finals upset ever
3. MJ (98) His toughest and most impressive ring
4. Kobe (2010) revenge from 08, puts into legend status as he proved he can win without Shaq
5. 04 Pistons (best example of "defense wins championships and that a collective unit can beat a team of box office superstars)
6. 17 Warriors greatest team of all time

Order isn't really specific but those are the ones that stood out to me over the past 30 years

[j3lademaster]

2012 gets underrated. After 2011 Lebron became the league laughing stock. I've never seen an athlete get more scrutinized.

To recover from that and win a ring shows a lot of mental toughness

[tpols]

Of what I've seen

2011 Mavs (most organic and legit ring ever by far)

2004 Pistons (straight gangster team)

2010 Lakers (four 50+ win teams to win it)

2014 Spurs (GOAT revenge blowout)

2016 Warriors (most dominant ball movement pure basketball team ever)


I dont count rigs like 2002, 2007, 2016, and 2020... nor super easy paths like 2015 or 2021.

[HoopsNY]

Good thread.

Agree with most of the names and their placement. '93 Mike should be higher though. He averaged 41/9/6 on 50 percent shooting, and outscored Pippen by like 20 points. The Bulls also faced a better finals team than '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan.

Shaq's 2000 ring should get an honorable mention. Kobe played hurt in that finals, and Shaq averaged damn near 40.

I should have been a little more explicit, what I intended with the thread was not just the finals but the road as well. In the case of Duncan, his finals opponent was weak but the win over Shaq/Kobe is what really stands out.

Same with Dirk, the Mavs not only beat a super-team, but they also beat the defending champions.

Shaq's 2000 ring doesn't get a mention due to the Pacers and playing alongside Kobe and Glen Rice. It wasn't a super-team, but it was damn near close to one.

So yea, it's more about the road while giving preference to the finals as opposed to just the finals itself.

[And1AllDay]

Of what I've seen

2011 Mavs (most organic and legit ring ever by far)

2004 Pistons (straight gangster team)

2010 Lakers (four 50+ win teams to win it)

2014 Spurs (GOAT revenge blowout)

2016 Warriors (most dominant ball movement pure basketball team ever)


I dont count rigs like 2002, 2007, 2016, and 2020... nor super easy paths like 2015 or 2021.

thurston what does t pols mean? do i need to post the pic again?

[8Ball]

Of what I've seen

2011 Mavs (most organic and legit ring ever by far)

2004 Pistons (straight gangster team)

2010 Lakers (four 50+ win teams to win it)

2014 Spurs (GOAT revenge blowout)

2016 Warriors (most dominant ball movement pure basketball team ever)


I dont count rigs like 2002, 2007, 2016, and 2020... nor super easy paths like 2015 or 2021.

2016 Cavs. Not warriors. Warriors didn't win the championship that year.


I can post sources and facts if you still confused.

[And1AllDay]

Of what I've seen

2011 Mavs (most organic and legit ring ever by far)

2004 Pistons (straight gangster team)

2010 Lakers (four 50+ win teams to win it)

2014 Spurs (GOAT revenge blowout)

2016 Warriors (most dominant ball movement pure basketball team ever)


I dont count rigs like 2002, 2007, 2016, and 2020... nor super easy paths like 2015 or 2021.

thurston...

[Mauzah]

I thought about the '91 team, but the help MJ got from guys like Pippen, Grant, and Paxson can't be overstated. Grant shot 63% in that series and Paxson shot 65%. I think Paxson had set an all-time record for consecutive FGs made between games 2-3 or 3-4 IIRC.

It was a decisive victory too and while MJ's performance can definitely be ranked as one of the greatest all time for a finals, I don't think the entire road+finals is necessarily up there, but maybe it belongs above Williams and Walton.

All valid points. What do you guys think of Magics 1980 ring? 20 year old rookie, no KAJ, playing center. 42-15-7 stat line.

[3ba11]

I thought about the '91 team, but the help MJ got from guys like Pippen, Grant, and Paxson can't be overstated. Grant shot 63% in that series and Paxson shot 65%. I think Paxson had set an all-time record for consecutive FGs made between games 2-3 or 3-4 IIRC.

It was a decisive victory too and while MJ's performance can definitely be ranked as one of the greatest all time for a finals, I don't think the entire road+finals is necessarily up there, but maybe it belongs above Williams and Walton.


Grant and Paxson were significantly outplayed by Vlade and Perkins, which is why MJ had to significantly outplay his matchup (Magic), while a hobbled Worthy matched Pippen.

And if Jordan had a lot of help in the 1991 Finals despite averaging 10 more points than anyone in the series, then how much help does Lebron have when his teammates nearly match him in scoring?... You simply have a double-standard for Jordan, which is fine because the GOAT is always held to the highest standard that no one else is held to.. Carry on

[ninjaseal]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016
2- Dirk 2011
3- Duncan 2003
4- Hakeem 1994
5- Frazier 1970
6- Barry 1975
7- MJ 1993
8- Pistons 2004 (collective)
9- Williams 1979
10- Walton 1977

I might change my opinion based on what some of you say, but this is just off the top of my head.

LeBron and the Cavs run in 2016 was impressive solely because of what he was able to do (leading in all five major statistical categories) by beating a 73 win team with the unanimous MVP for his opponent.

Dirk stands out because his road was incredibly difficult, coupled with the fact that the Mavs beat a super-team in addition to Miami having HCA.

Duncan's was incredibly difficult given the carry job that he did and beating Shaq/Kobe.

Frazier's is impressive given Willis Reed's injury and beating a super-team in LA, not to mention putting up something like 36/7/19 in game 6.

MJ's was impressive due to the dog fight that they had against the Knicks in 6 games and then going off for 41 PPG despite not having HCA, as well as Pippen playing on a bad ankle for the entire season.

Barry's ring is severely underrated!

What is everyone else's top 10?


did you make this post for clout


98 bulls they beat a utah jazz team that oblierated shaq and kobe who later won 3 straight,

none of the years you mentioned come even close to having any goat calibur players on both sides TOP 3 WISE POSITION LIKE JORDAN SHAQ STOCKTON, U GET WHAT IM SAYING?

EXCEPT FOR THE 1 TEAM U MENTIONED IN LEBRON

[HoopsNY]

did you make this post for clout


98 bulls they beat a utah jazz team that oblierated shaq and kobe who later won 3 straight,

none of the years you mentioned come even close to having any goat calibur players on both sides TOP 3 WISE POSITION LIKE JORDAN SHAQ STOCKTON, U GET WHAT IM SAYING?

EXCEPT FOR THE 1 TEAM U MENTIONED IN LEBRON

It's pretty scary if people make posts on ISH for "clout." Sorry, I'm not into the Tik Tok/IG generation. I'm too old for that.

[mr4speed]

All valid points. What do you guys think of Magics 1980 ring? 20 year old rookie, no KAJ, playing center. 42-15-7 stat line.
Magic was great in game 6 but he only jumped center at the start of the game and did not guard Dawkins. Jim Chones held Dawkins to 14 points. The Sixers had never seen LA run so much and play without Kareem and never really figured out how to stop LA. Magic had a good series but Kareem was better. Magic set an NBA finals record in that series for the most turnovers in 6 games at 30. I believe Magic's stats were 21.5 points and 11.2 rebounds and 8.7 assists and Kareem was 33.4 points and 13.6 rebounds and 3.2 assists and 4.6 blocks per game! After game 6 Kareem was voted the FMVP but because he was not present CBS did not want to present the award to an empty chair and asked the voters to change their votes so Magic would win the award. This is covered in the book titled "Kareem" on pages 140-141. Given how people value the FMVP now in the GOAT rankings, this award really belongs in Kareem's trophy room. I think Magic's best ring was 87 and for Kareem it was 85 and for Bird it was 84 IMO.

[Wally450]

.
Titles with super-teams or equal-scoring partners (1b's) are immediately disqualified:


1) 93' Jordan
2) 98' Jordan
3) 97' Jordan
4) 91' Jordan
5) 92' Jordan
6) 09' Kobe
7) 10' Kobe
8) 11' Dirk
9) 19' Kawhi
10) 96' Jordan

Lmao at putting 2010 Kobe on that list.

[3ba11]

Lmao at putting 2010 Kobe on that list.


Kobe always led the Lakers in scoring by 10+ ppg in the playoffs and Finals, while also leading the team in assists - only Kobe and MJ won championships that way

[And1AllDay]

Kobe always led the Lakers in scoring by 10+ ppg in the playoffs and Finals, while also leading the team in assists - only Kobe and MJ won championships that way

mike is not on kobes level

kobe > mike

get it right

[3ba11]

mike is not on kobes level

kobe > mike

get it right


I have no problem saying Kobe > MJ... They're 1a and 1b in the goat rankings:

Top 10 all-time:


1) Kobe
2) MJ
3) Bird


who cares about the rest - they're all a bunch of centers or ball-dominators and therefore inferior

[RRR3]

I have no problem saying Kobe > MJ... They're 1a and 1b in the goat rankings:

Top 10 all-time:


1) Kobe
2) MJ
3) Bird


who cares about the rest - they're all a bunch of centers or ball-dominators and therefore inferior
:biggums:


The truth comes out. A butthurt Kobe stan pretending to like MJ. Kuniva was right.

[3ba11]

:biggums:


The truth comes out. A butthurt Kobe stan pretending to like MJ. Kuniva was right.


Centers and ball-dominators are inferior players - so they're inferior to any 1st option that has 3+ rings.. Once KD gets #3, he'll be #4 behind Bird... Once Giannis gets #3, he'll be #5.. If Kawhi gets #3, he'll be #6... So on and so forth.. Those are the real rankings - otherwise, the record shows that centers and ball-dominators need FAR MORE HELP TO WIN (and still lose a ton)

[kawhileonard2]

MJ 1991, 1998, Kawhi 2019, Dirk 2011, Hakeem 1994, Duncan 1999, Walton 1977

[dankok8]

In all seriousness...

Why do I get a feeling that Lebron's 2016 run is insanely overrated just because he came back from 1-3 down? If Lebron does in games 1-3 what he did in games 5-7 the Cavs probably win the series in 5 games and his title doesn't even rank on this list. It's almost like he gets extra credit because he played poorly in the first few games of the series that the Warriors won. Not to mention the greatest run ever should factor in more than three games in one series. The Cavs' road through the East was not worth mentioning.

[8Ball]

In all seriousness...

Why do I get a feeling that Lebron's 2016 run is insanely overrated just because he came back from 1-3 down? If Lebron does in games 1-3 what he did in games 5-7 the Cavs probably win the series in 5 games and his title doesn't even rank on this list. It's almost like he gets extra credit because he played poorly in the first few games of the series that the Warriors won. Not to mention the greatest run ever should factor in more than three games in one series. The Cavs' road through the East was not worth mentioning.

I don't think the 2016 run was LeBron's greatest run. It ranks as a great ring because he took down a 73 win team stacked with hall of famers. If you can take down a 70+ win team, it's a great all time ring.

LeBron did have 2 all time great games in 2016 finals. Game 5 and game 6 were masterclass games. Game 7 2016 was also a great game albeit it was a defensive brawl of a game.


2018 was LeBron's greatest individual performance run ever.

[Stephonit]

In all seriousness...

Why do I get a feeling that Lebron's 2016 run is insanely overrated just because he came back from 1-3 down? If Lebron does in games 1-3 what he did in games 5-7 the Cavs probably win the series in 5 games and his title doesn't even rank on this list. It's almost like he gets extra credit because he played poorly in the first few games of the series that the Warriors won. Not to mention the greatest run ever should factor in more than three games in one series. The Cavs' road through the East was not worth mentioning.

Because it is insanely overrated. No one serious would bring it up. The 2004 Pistons in comparison are far more worthy in terms of upsets since they didn't rely on interventions and injuries.

[8Ball]

Because it is insanely overrated.

Was 73 wins and unanimous MVP trophy also insanely overrated?

[Stephonit]

Was 73 wins and unanimous MVP trophy also insanely overrated?

Considering the injuries that happened afterwards? And the domination in preceding and succeeding years? No.

Frankly the Warriors' playoffs run that year even in a loss could be argued to be objectively more impressive than what the Cavaliers did.

[tpols]

Was 73 wins and unanimous MVP trophy also insanely overrated?

The Thunder gave the warriors a far bigger scare than the Cavs.

People forget... but the THUNDER were up 3-1 on the 73 win warriors. It took an insane choke for them to lose. And... Draymond green legit kicked Steven Adams in the balls for no reason. He shouldve been suspended. But the league let it go.

And then in the Finals lebron got Draymond suspended for defending himself against what lebron did where dray took a swipe at him and MISSED. And they suspended him to prolong the match and generate more views and money.

[kennygriffin]

the goat rings are

Hakeem 94
kobe 09
dirk 11
Walton 77
Barry 75
kawhi 19
jordan 92
Duncan 03
Magic 80
Shaq 00

[Pip' N Rodman]

the goat rings are

Hakeem 94
kobe 09
dirk 11
Walton 77
Barry 75
kawhi 19
jordan 92
Duncan 03
Giannis 21
Shaq 00

lol Kobe? :oldlol:

He had one of the worst Finals performance ever (40% shooting)

[kennygriffin]

lol Kobe? :oldlol:

He had one of the worst Finals performance ever (40% shooting)

no other title team in history. not even the 94 rockets had a worse 4 through 12.. and his sidekick is in the bottom 20 all time

almost everyone from that team was out of the nba in 2 years

[WhiteKyrie]

From 1990 forward, I compromise this list based on peak play, duration of the run, competition face, age, level of teammate help or not help, and overall level of dominance.

Too early to rate 2021 Giannis plus the context of the historical injury plagued post season on an unprecedented level.

In a few of the scenarios two teammates produced at such a level given the circumstances that they both need to be mentioned.

1) 1993 MJ
2) 1995 Hakeem
3) 1998 MJ
4) 2006 Wade
5) 2016 LeBron / Kyrie
6) 1991 MJ
7) 1992 MJ
8) 2001 Shaq / Kobe
9) 2000 Shaq
10) 2011 Dirk
11) 1994 Hakeem
12) 2003 Duncan
13) 1997 MJ
14) 2009 Kobe
15) 2013 LeBron

[dankok8]

I don't think the 2016 run was LeBron's greatest run. It ranks as a great ring because he took down a 73 win team stacked with hall of famers. If you can take down a 70+ win team, it's a great all time ring.

LeBron did have 2 all time great games in 2016 finals. Game 5 and game 6 were masterclass games. Game 7 2016 was also a great game albeit it was a defensive brawl of a game.


2018 was LeBron's greatest individual performance run ever.

Yea but that's a shallow narrative. That same 73-win team was down 1-3 the round prior to that finals defeat to a pretty good but far from historically great Thunder team (55 wins +7 SRS) . The Warriors' form, probably due to injuries/fatigue, was not even close to their regular season. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend like the Warriors played like a GOAT team in that playoffs which what the whole "beat a 73-win team" narrative implies.

As for stacked with HOFers, I don't know about that either. Curry is obviously first ballot and a top 15 all-timer. Klay probably gets in although if he never makes it back from injury and gets a few more all-star appearances it's not guaranteed. Dray may or may not be a HOFer. Iggy is definitely not a HOFer. Pre-KD Warriors weren't obnoxiously stacked or anything like that. 2-3 HOFers is nothing out of the ordinary for a championship team.

[SaintzFury13]

1. LeBron (2016) needs its own documentry
2. Mavs (2011) biggest finals upset ever
3. MJ (98) His toughest and most impressive ring
4. Kobe (2010) revenge from 08, puts into legend status as he proved he can win without Shaq
5. 04 Pistons (best example of "defense wins championships and that a collective unit can beat a team of box office superstars)
6. 17 Warriors greatest team of all time

Order isn't really specific but those are the ones that stood out to me over the past 30 years

Cavaliers beating the Warriors in 2016 is honestly a bigger upset than Dallas beating Miami. But Cavaliers had some fortune on their side. Draymond's suspension, Bogut's injury which took him out of the series, Curry and Iggy both having injury issues. Granted, Kevin Love played with a concussion for most of the series, but that doesn't really compare to Golden State's injury issues . There was also one where the Bill Russell Celtics were pretty old while Wilt's Lakers were a legitimate juggernaut, but still won. I would have to rank that one up there too.

Also, if you're looking for a documentary, this is about as close as it gets (it's three parts, but one of the most incredible pieces of work I've ever seen).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBNC3Z_xirM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoSazDGyOz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLUt_iZsFDY


Giannis was great but he didn't face any great teams. If he has taken down a 73 win team or the brooklyn 3 healthy it would be all time ring.

Great rings = great performances vs all time teams.

I can't agree with this narrative. If that's the case then Jordan has no great rings on his resume. It's very rare that a team that makes the NBA finals isn't a legitimately great team. The Suns were no exception to the rule.

Booker had two straight 40 point performances but the Bucks were able to survive that with historic performances from Giannis. This is his first series on the biggest stage FYI. It may not hold the same weight as LeBron's performances against Golden State, but it's still noteworthy to the point where it deserves recognition as far as finals debuts are concerned.


I dont count rigs like 2002, 2007, 2016, and 2020... nor super easy paths like 2015 or 2021.

In what way were any of those apart from 2002 rigs? Hell there's a much better argument for 2006 being a rig than any of those but for some reason you leave those out.


And if Jordan had a lot of help in the 1991 Finals despite averaging 10 more points than anyone in the series, then how much help does Lebron have when his teammates nearly match him in scoring?... You simply have a double-standard for Jordan, which is fine because the GOAT is always held to the highest standard that no one else is held to.. Carry on

Basketball is about a lot more than just scoring. This is why people here call you a retard.


Because it is insanely overrated. No one serious would bring it up. The 2004 Pistons in comparison are far more worthy in terms of upsets since they didn't rely on interventions and injuries.

The 2004 Lakers were missing Karl Malone for most of the series and Kobe was dealing with a rape case that you could argue (I am NOT stating this as a fact) affected his ability to focus properly on the series at hand. Let's not pretend that the Lakers were a fully healthy team playing at the highest level. They barely squeaked past the Spurs and benefited from key injuries from the Timberwolves just to make it there.

Cavaliers had more luck in their favor with their 2016 win, but to even try to argue that the 04 Pistons win was more worthy and a bigger upset is just silly.


In all seriousness...

Why do I get a feeling that Lebron's 2016 run is insanely overrated just because he came back from 1-3 down? If Lebron does in games 1-3 what he did in games 5-7 the Cavs probably win the series in 5 games and his title doesn't even rank on this list. It's almost like he gets extra credit because he played poorly in the first few games of the series that the Warriors won. Not to mention the greatest run ever should factor in more than three games in one series. The Cavs' road through the East was not worth mentioning.

There's a lot more to LeBron's 2016 Championship ring than just him coming back from 3-1.

The Warriors were a 73 win all time great team while the Cavaliers were, at best, the third best team in the league. The Warriors had significant match up advantages, were better on both ends of the floor, were deeper and had better coaching. Almost no one outside of the state of Ohio thought Cleveland had any realistic chance of winning, especially after the Warriors had blown the Cavaliers out in their most recent meeting in the regular season. The Warriors also had the first unanimous MVP and had just come back from a 3-1 deficit themselves to reach that point. All signs pointed to them being the team of destiny. Cavaliers coming out on top was the last thing many people were expecting.

But probably the most important fact is that this was Cleveland's curse breaking title win. LeBron being labeled as the "chosen one" when he first came into the league wasn't just about him being the one to surpass Jordan (which never happened). It was about him being the guy who would bring an end to the Cleveland championship curse and once again make Cleveland the city of champions. And he did it, in arguably the most dramatic fashion possible. He had three all time great performances in that 3-1 comeback to propel Cleveland to the win. He literally carried them on his back to pull it off. Morons like 3ball are going to always try to argue that Kyrie somehow matched up in production which is absolute idiocy, but the truth of the matter is, LeBron had to pull off one of the greatest all around series performances just to make it happen.

There were injuries, and there was Draymond's game five suspension, which people will always complain about and a sign it was rigged (which, again, is absolute idiocy), but it can't be denied that LeBron knew that Draymond was one slip up away from a suspension and intentionally caused the situation to make it happen, but that's on Draymond for retaliating in the first place. He should have known better. All said and done, Golden State still had three games to get one more win and they could not pull it off. Cavaliers meanwhile lost their third (arguably second) best player for most of the series and won three games without him.

You can make as many as excuses as you want to. LeBron won a title for Cleveland. He completed the challenge that was set upon him in this league and did something no one else in 53 years of Cleveland sports could do. He made a Cleveland team a champion. Just for that reason alone, it's always going to rank up there. But to do it against one of the greatest teams of all time down 3-1 with two games away? There's no way this isn't a top three all time ring.

[SaintzFury13]

Yea but that's a shallow narrative. That same 73-win team was down 1-3 the round prior to that finals defeat to a pretty good but far from historically great Thunder team (55 wins +7 SRS) . The Warriors' form, probably due to injuries/fatigue, was not even close to their regular season. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend like the Warriors played like a GOAT team in that playoffs which what the whole "beat a 73-win team" narrative implies.

The Thunder were a match up nightmare for the Warriors in a seven game series. No one on the Warriors could effectively guard Durant and they were one of the few teams who could effectively guard Draymond (I hate how underrated Ibaka's role on the Thunder is to this day). The Thunder could consistently outrebound and outhustle the more fragile and smaller Golden State front court. And they were possibly the only team in the NBA apart from Cleveland who had the personal to counter Golden State's small ball line up of death. Golden State became a 73 win team in the first place by having a system put in thanks to their unique personal that made it almost impossible for any team to defend against them, along with having one of the most versatile defenses we've ever seen, with bigs who could guard the perimeter as well as the paint at an elite level and multiple lengthy defenders at the guard/forward position. The Thunder were the only team that none of this mattered against.

To top it all off, the Thunder played an extremely physical style of basketball that you could tell had an affect on the Warriors afterwards. It was clear going into the finals that they were a very banged up team. If it wasn't for Kyrie Irving shitting the bed in game 1, that game would have been a lot closer than it had any business being.


As for stacked with HOFers, I don't know about that either. Curry is obviously first ballot and a top 15 all-timer. Klay probably gets in although if he never makes it back from injury and gets a few more all-star appearances it's not guaranteed. Dray may or may not be a HOFer. Iggy is definitely not a HOFer. Pre-KD Warriors weren't obnoxiously stacked or anything like that. 2-3 HOFers is nothing out of the ordinary for a championship team.

Klay is absolutely going to be a hall of famer. He's one of the top 5 greatest shooters of all time with numerous NBA records to his name and even has all team defense selections to his name. Dray's definitely getting in. And what do you mean Iggy is definitely not a hall of famer? He absolutely ****ing is. We've seen guys with a lot less accolades get in than him. He's not going to be a first ballot, and it's going to take him a while. But eventually he's going to get in.

[HoopsNY]

Weighing some of the arguments here, I'd probably have to drop LeBron's 2016 title down a bit, but I still think it's arguably top 5.

[SaintzFury13]

Weighing some of the arguments here, I'd probably have to drop LeBron's 2016 title down a bit, but I still think it's arguably top 5.

If we are talking strictly on legacy defining rings, LeBron's ring is number one and there's no argument for any being bigger. He accomplished what many expected him to at the beginning of his career and broke the biggest drought any city with at least three major pro teams had ever experienced, and he did it in the most dramatic fashion with one of the greatest all around performances of all time against the greatest team of all time record wise in one of the biggest upsets in NBA history.

But if we are taking strictly about performance, and the strengths of the opposing teams, and taking into account injuries and luck and circumstances, then there are a few others you could argue were superior. But none of those rings will ever do as much for those players as LeBron's title win in Cleveland did for him.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/49/51/d0/4951d00abd4b027aafb5d828e16a389d.jpg

We all remember this image, right? This was made almost immediately after LeBron won the title in Cleveland. I think it only took two days after it happened for it to be made. I think a lot of people forget just how much respect the sports world as a whole gained for LeBron after that win. Two championships in Miami, but THIS was the one that made people think this was the one that undisputedly put LeBron up there amongst the all time greats. One thing it absolutely proved, above all else, is that LeBron did not need to be on the superior team or on super teams to win. He didn't need to be carried or saved by teammates to win. This is a series you can always point at to dispel these narratives. How many superstar players out there can say winning one title did THAT much for their legacy?

[dankok8]

The Warriors were a 73 win all time great team while the Cavaliers were, at best, the third best team in the league. The Warriors had significant match up advantages, were better on both ends of the floor, were deeper and had better coaching. Almost no one outside of the state of Ohio thought Cleveland had any realistic chance of winning, especially after the Warriors had blown the Cavaliers out in their most recent meeting in the regular season. The Warriors also had the first unanimous MVP and had just come back from a 3-1 deficit themselves to reach that point. All signs pointed to them being the team of destiny. Cavaliers coming out on top was the last thing many people were expecting.

But probably the most important fact is that this was Cleveland's curse breaking title win. LeBron being labeled as the "chosen one" when he first came into the league wasn't just about him being the one to surpass Jordan (which never happened). It was about him being the guy who would bring an end to the Cleveland championship curse and once again make Cleveland the city of champions. And he did it, in arguably the most dramatic fashion possible. He had three all time great performances in that 3-1 comeback to propel Cleveland to the win. He literally carried them on his back to pull it off. Morons like 3ball are going to always try to argue that Kyrie somehow matched up in production which is absolute idiocy, but the truth of the matter is, LeBron had to pull off one of the greatest all around series performances just to make it happen.

There were injuries, and there was Draymond's game five suspension, which people will always complain about and a sign it was rigged (which, again, is absolute idiocy), but it can't be denied that LeBron knew that Draymond was one slip up away from a suspension and intentionally caused the situation to make it happen, but that's on Draymond for retaliating in the first place. He should have known better. All said and done, Golden State still had three games to get one more win and they could not pull it off. Cavaliers meanwhile lost their third (arguably second) best player for most of the series and won three games without him.

You can make as many as excuses as you want to. LeBron won a title for Cleveland. He completed the challenge that was set upon him in this league and did something no one else in 53 years of Cleveland sports could do. He made a Cleveland team a champion. Just for that reason alone, it's always going to rank up there. But to do it against one of the greatest teams of all time down 3-1 with two games away? There's no way this isn't a top three all time ring.

The Cavs weren't huge underdogs in the 2016 Finals. Here's how the 29 ESPN experts broke it down for instance:

1 said Warriors in 5
10 said Warriors in 6
11 said Warriors in 7
2 said Cavaliers in 7
5 said Cavaliers in 6

7/29 (24.1%) predicted a Cavs win and 28/29 (96.6%) predicted a six or seven games series. The average prediction was Warriors in seven.

I'm not making excuses just stating facts. Cleveland's 53 year title drought." is just a marketing gimmick. What have the Spurs won without Duncan? Bulls without Jordan? I've never heard anyone bring up those arguments. Because honestly they are pretty dumb.

Obviously it wasn't rigged. The Cavs deserved to win. It just isn't the greatest title ever. Especially when the first three rounds were nothing of note and even the first four games of the series, Lebron was nothing special and even subpar.


The Thunder were a match up nightmare for the Warriors in a seven game series. No one on the Warriors could effectively guard Durant and they were one of the few teams who could effectively guard Draymond (I hate how underrated Ibaka's role on the Thunder is to this day). The Thunder could consistently outrebound and outhustle the more fragile and smaller Golden State front court. And they were possibly the only team in the NBA apart from Cleveland who had the personal to counter Golden State's small ball line up of death. Golden State became a 73 win team in the first place by having a system put in thanks to their unique personal that made it almost impossible for any team to defend against them, along with having one of the most versatile defenses we've ever seen, with bigs who could guard the perimeter as well as the paint at an elite level and multiple lengthy defenders at the guard/forward position. The Thunder were the only team that none of this mattered against.

To top it all off, the Thunder played an extremely physical style of basketball that you could tell had an affect on the Warriors afterwards. It was clear going into the finals that they were a very banged up team. If it wasn't for Kyrie Irving shitting the bed in game 1, that game would have been a lot closer than it had any business being.

I agree with this post but it doesn't refute anything I said. You said the Warriors were a very banged up team in the finals due to the Thunder's physicality. Ok... that actually supports my point that the Warriors played nothing like a 73-win team which is what I said.


Klay is absolutely going to be a hall of famer. He's one of the top 5 greatest shooters of all time with numerous NBA records to his name and even has all team defense selections to his name. Dray's definitely getting in. And what do you mean Iggy is definitely not a hall of famer? He absolutely ****ing is. We've seen guys with a lot less accolades get in than him. He's not going to be a first ballot, and it's going to take him a while. But eventually he's going to get in.


Green is a 3-time all-star which is very much on the low end. He currently has a 34.7% probability to make the HOF largely because of defensive accolades. His resume is significantly worse than someone like Ben Wallace who didn't have an easy time getting in. Iggy has 1 all-star appearance. His odds of HOF induction are 6.1%. He's not getting in. Even Klay who is by far the most likely to make it is only at 5 all-star appearances and a 51.7% probability of HOF induction. Without any more accolades, even Klay is not absolutely certain to get in...

Basically the Warriors will probably have 2-3 HOFers when it's all said and done well in line with other title winners in recent history.

[Mauzah]

Magic was great in game 6 but he only jumped center at the start of the game and did not guard Dawkins. Jim Chones held Dawkins to 14 points. The Sixers had never seen LA run so much and play without Kareem and never really figured out how to stop LA. Magic had a good series but Kareem was better. Magic set an NBA finals record in that series for the most turnovers in 6 games at 30. I believe Magic's stats were 21.5 points and 11.2 rebounds and 8.7 assists and Kareem was 33.4 points and 13.6 rebounds and 3.2 assists and 4.6 blocks per game! After game 6 Kareem was voted the FMVP but because he was not present CBS did not want to present the award to an empty chair and asked the voters to change their votes so Magic would win the award. This is covered in the book titled "Kareem" on pages 140-141. Given how people value the FMVP now in the GOAT rankings, this award really belongs in Kareem's trophy room. I think Magic's best ring was 87 and for Kareem it was 85 and for Bird it was 84 IMO.

Appreciate the insights, maybe this will be the summer I watch some classic ball that predates 1985.

The 90's be calling me right now.

:pimp:

[kawhileonard2]

Cavaliers beating the Warriors in 2016 is honestly a bigger upset than Dallas beating Miami.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html (Dallas 7th), (Miami 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html (San Antonio 6th), (Miami 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 8th), (Cleveland 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 2nd), (Cleveland 1st)

You were saying?

[kennygriffin]

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/49/51/d0/4951d00abd4b027aafb5d828e16a389d.jpg



Michael jordan never said that lmao.. who made that meme. he still bashes him for colluding and says he isn't on kobes level till he wins 5 or on his level till he wins 6 so... yeah

I know kobe liked him cause he went to the Lakers but jordan is more straight up

[TheCorporation]

2016


The rest are playing for peanuts

[SaintzFury13]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html (Dallas 7th), (Miami 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html (San Antonio 6th), (Miami 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 8th), (Cleveland 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 2nd), (Cleveland 1st)

You were saying?


Going off of pre-season odds is like going entirely off of stats to judge a players place in historical rankings. Only a moron would do such a thing.


The Cavs weren't huge underdogs in the 2016 Finals. Here's how the 29 ESPN experts broke it down for instance:

1 said Warriors in 5
10 said Warriors in 6
11 said Warriors in 7
2 said Cavaliers in 7
5 said Cavaliers in 6

7/29 (24.1%) predicted a Cavs win and 28/29 (96.6%) predicted a six or seven games series. The average prediction was Warriors in seven.

I could absolutely care less about what the ESPN "experts" thought about the series. In fact I rarely go off of anything that any of them say. Most of them don't even watch the regular season games. Most of them don't have any real idea as to how the teams going into the finals play or how well they truly match up with one another. The popular consensus among people who actively watched the regular season, followed the teams and knew what the hell was going on was that the Cavaliers had significant match up problems going into that series and they stood no real chance of winning.

The fact that most had that series going to 7 is laughable. 5 was far more realistic and is what I had the series going before it began. And guess what? That probably would have happened had it not been for Draymond's suspension. I'll grant you this one because technically you did prove me wrong by pointing this out. But I want you to understand that this is about much more than what "experts" had predicted prior to the series starting. It had a lot more to do with how both teams matched up, how they played against each other and how well they looked going into the series. Based on that aspect alone, the Cavaliers were very, VERY big underdogs.


I'm not making excuses just stating facts. Cleveland's 53 year title drought." is just a marketing gimmick. What have the Spurs won without Duncan? Bulls without Jordan? I've never heard anyone bring up those arguments. Because honestly they are pretty dumb.

The Spurs are the only Pro sports team San Antonio has. They don't count. The Chicago Bulls not winning anything before Jordan is irrelevant because the Bears won the superbowl in 86 and the Blackhawks had multiple title wins beforehand as well. They were not known as a city of losers. No one brings up those arguments because yeah, it would be pretty dumb to state that. Those arguments have no merit.

Cleveland had three major sports teams, all of whom failed to win anything for 53 years. That shit was simply unheard of for any city that had three Professional Sports teams. Take it from someone who lived in Ohio and had been through it all. Being a Cleveland sports fan was a miserable experience. From the Indians having one of the best teams of the 90s and failing to win anything, including having gone to two world series and having one end in heart breaking fashion, watching the Browns be forced to relocate, come back and have no meaningful seasons for decades, and the Cavaliers getting LeBron James and then watching him leave in 2010. Too recent? Fine, let me go back to the 80s where the Browns lost out on two super bowl trips due to last minute heart breaking defeats and the Cavaliers being upset by the Bulls off of Jordan's game series winning shot. There are people who grew up in Cleveland, were 50 years old, and never witnessed a Cleveland sports team win a championship. A Chicago sports fan could not say the same thing. No fan of any sports from a city they grew up in or near that had three or more major sports teams could say this. Cubs fans obviously had it the worst but at least they had the Bears in 86 if they liked Football. At least they had the Bulls in the 90s. Red Sox fans had it pretty bad too, but at least they had the Celtics in the 80s. At least they had the Patriots during the Tom Brady era. Cleveland fans had NOTHING. And that wasn't even the worst part. Cleveland was simply not an attractive destination for well known athletes to go to. It was always very hard to build a team out there because no one ever wanted to play there and the teams generally lacked the money to keep all the star players they would get through drafts and/or their farm system in baseball. In the end it was never truly enough.

That's why LeBron was always looked at as the "chosen one". He was a guy who experienced it all first hand, who could see from his own perspective what Cleveland sports fans went through time and time again. He knew how much a championship would mean to the city (which is funny because he himself wasn't even a Cleveland sports fan growing up. He was a yankees, cowboys and bulls fan. But hey you know what, we'll just ignore that for now).

So perhaps the "53 years without a title" thing was a marketing gimmick. Fine. Then so is Jordan's perfect finals record. So is the Celtics/Lakers rivalry. So is every single sports draught in the history of...well, sports. Guess what? It doesn't change the fact that it happened. It doesn't change the years of heartbreak and frustration Cleveland fans had to endure. It doesn't take away the story that LeBron James winning one for Cleveland created. He was the chosen one and he pulled it off, with all the odds stacked against him. This is not an overrated ring by any means. Every single thing that it gets praise for is deserved.


Obviously it wasn't rigged. The Cavs deserved to win. It just isn't the greatest title ever. Especially when the first three rounds were nothing of note and even the first four games of the series, Lebron was nothing special and even subpar.

Well for one thing, LeBron was pretty good in that third game. But then again, everyone was. The truth of the matter is, the Cavaliers as a whole weren't great in those first four games apart from 3. They were terrible, which was expected by people like myself. Once again, the Warriors were a very tough team to play against. But LeBron saw the cracks in the foundation. He knew an opportunity was there and he took full advantage of it, which any great player would do. Jordan did the exact same thing and we praise him as the greatest player of all time, and rightfully so.

[SaintzFury13]

I agree with this post but it doesn't refute anything I said. You said the Warriors were a very banged up team in the finals due to the Thunder's physicality. Ok... that actually supports my point that the Warriors played nothing like a 73-win team which is what I said.

I'm not trying to argue that the Warriors were the 73 win team we saw in the regular season. The fact of the matter is, they didn't have to be. They still took the first two games by a record breaking margin. They took game 4 with little difficulty. It was very clear that they were the better team and it wasn't even close. I still to this day do not know what the hell happened with game 3 where they lost by 30 points. That was honestly one of the strangest occurences I had ever witnessed in my life and I don't have anything rational to explain it. I can honestly just say that it was a fluke and nothing more. But of course, Cleveland coming back in games 5, 6 and 7 kind of hurt that point now don't they?

Now with all of that said, the Warriors not being the 73 win team also hurt them in the end and allowed Cleveland to comeback in the first place. Those injuries all added up in the end, and without them, LeBron's tenure in Cleveland would be considered a failure. Then again, Durant probably doesn't go to Golden State (if we believe his words that he only went there because he felt they needed him, which is laughable) and Cleveland could just as easily come back the next year and possibly win. Who knows. All we do know is that LeBron did in fact win a title there so it doesn't even matter.


Green is a 3-time all-star which is very much on the low end. He currently has a 34.7% probability to make the HOF largely because of defensive accolades. His resume is significantly worse than someone like Ben Wallace who didn't have an easy time getting in. Iggy has 1 all-star appearance. His odds of HOF induction are 6.1%. He's not getting in. Even Klay who is by far the most likely to make it is only at 5 all-star appearances and a 51.7% probability of HOF induction. Without any more accolades, even Klay is not absolutely certain to get in...

Iggy also has an all defense selection, is a three time NBA Champion and even has a Finals MVP award to his name. Like I said before, we've seen guys with less get in, so I have no reason to believe Iggy hasn't done enough to warrant a Hall of Fame induction some day. But once again, it will not happen right away.


Basically the Warriors will probably have 2-3 HOFers when it's all said and done well in line with other title winners in recent history.

I guess this is something we can only take a "wait and see" approach with.

[8Ball]

SaintzFury13

This forum doesn't deserve intellectuals like you. Very well informed posts by the way.

You know your stuff.

[SaintzFury13]

Michael jordan never said that lmao.. who made that meme. he still bashes him for colluding and says he isn't on kobes level till he wins 5 or on his level till he wins 6 so... yeah

I know kobe liked him cause he went to the Lakers but jordan is more straight up

And this my friends is what stupidity looks like.

[Stephonit]

The 2004 Lakers were missing Karl Malone for most of the series and Kobe was dealing with a rape case that you could argue (I am NOT stating this as a fact) affected his ability to focus properly on the series at hand. Let's not pretend that the Lakers were a fully healthy team playing at the highest level. They barely squeaked past the Spurs and benefited from key injuries from the Timberwolves just to make it there.

Cavaliers had more luck in their favor with their 2016 win, but to even try to argue that the 04 Pistons win was more worthy and a bigger upset is just silly.


Pre-NBA Finals series odds:

2004 LA Lakers -550 Detroit +400
2016 Golden State -200 Cleveland +162

https://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-finals-historical-series-odds-list

[SaintzFury13]

Pre-NBA Finals series odds:

2004 LA Lakers -550 Detroit +400
2016 Golden State -200 Cleveland +162

https://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-finals-historical-series-odds-list

Well then, I stand corrected. There were a lot more people out there than I thought who were in fact that stupid. Truly amazing.

[dankok8]

I could absolutely care less about what the ESPN "experts" thought about the series. In fact I rarely go off of anything that any of them say. Most of them don't even watch the regular season games. Most of them don't have any real idea as to how the teams going into the finals play or how well they truly match up with one another. The popular consensus among people who actively watched the regular season, followed the teams and knew what the hell was going on was that the Cavaliers had significant match up problems going into that series and they stood no real chance of winning.

The fact that most had that series going to 7 is laughable. 5 was far more realistic and is what I had the series going before it began. And guess what? That probably would have happened had it not been for Draymond's suspension. I'll grant you this one because technically you did prove me wrong by pointing this out. But I want you to understand that this is about much more than what "experts" had predicted prior to the series starting. It had a lot more to do with how both teams matched up, how they played against each other and how well they looked going into the series. Based on that aspect alone, the Cavaliers were very, VERY big underdogs.

In the 2015 Finals, the Cavs without Kyrie and Love took a fully healthy Warriors team to 6 games. And now a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love couldn't touch a Warriors team coming in with weaker form? Come on...


The Spurs are the only Pro sports team San Antonio has. They don't count. The Chicago Bulls not winning anything before Jordan is irrelevant because the Bears won the superbowl in 86 and the Blackhawks had multiple title wins beforehand as well. They were not known as a city of losers. No one brings up those arguments because yeah, it would be pretty dumb to state that. Those arguments have no merit.

Cleveland had three major sports teams, all of whom failed to win anything for 53 years. That shit was simply unheard of for any city that had three Professional Sports teams. Take it from someone who lived in Ohio and had been through it all. Being a Cleveland sports fan was a miserable experience. From the Indians having one of the best teams of the 90s and failing to win anything, including having gone to two world series and having one end in heart breaking fashion, watching the Browns be forced to relocate, come back and have no meaningful seasons for decades, and the Cavaliers getting LeBron James and then watching him leave in 2010. Too recent? Fine, let me go back to the 80s where the Browns lost out on two super bowl trips due to last minute heart breaking defeats and the Cavaliers being upset by the Bulls off of Jordan's game series winning shot. There are people who grew up in Cleveland, were 50 years old, and never witnessed a Cleveland sports team win a championship. A Chicago sports fan could not say the same thing. No fan of any sports from a city they grew up in or near that had three or more major sports teams could say this. Cubs fans obviously had it the worst but at least they had the Bears in 86 if they liked Football. At least they had the Bulls in the 90s. Red Sox fans had it pretty bad too, but at least they had the Celtics in the 80s. At least they had the Patriots during the Tom Brady era. Cleveland fans had NOTHING. And that wasn't even the worst part. Cleveland was simply not an attractive destination for well known athletes to go to. It was always very hard to build a team out there because no one ever wanted to play there and the teams generally lacked the money to keep all the star players they would get through drafts and/or their farm system in baseball. In the end it was never truly enough.

That's why LeBron was always looked at as the "chosen one". He was a guy who experienced it all first hand, who could see from his own perspective what Cleveland sports fans went through time and time again. He knew how much a championship would mean to the city (which is funny because he himself wasn't even a Cleveland sports fan growing up. He was a yankees, cowboys and bulls fan. But hey you know what, we'll just ignore that for now).

So perhaps the "53 years without a title" thing was a marketing gimmick. Fine. Then so is Jordan's perfect finals record. So is the Celtics/Lakers rivalry. So is every single sports draught in the history of...well, sports. Guess what? It doesn't change the fact that it happened. It doesn't change the years of heartbreak and frustration Cleveland fans had to endure. It doesn't take away the story that LeBron James winning one for Cleveland created. He was the chosen one and he pulled it off, with all the odds stacked against him. This is not an overrated ring by any means. Every single thing that it gets praise for is deserved.

I don't think Lebron deserves extra credit for the Indians, Browns and Blue Jackets sucking... or even for the Cavs not winning before he arrived in Cleveland. Why would we judge someone using criteria that has nothing to do with them playing basketball? It doesn't make sense to me...

Of course "undefeated in the finals" for MJ is also a marketing gimmick. As is the Lakers-Celtics rivalry.

You made a good post here but it doesn't refute anything I said.

[dankok8]

Well for one thing, LeBron was pretty good in that third game. But then again, everyone was. The truth of the matter is, the Cavaliers as a whole weren't great in those first four games apart from 3. They were terrible, which was expected by people like myself. Once again, the Warriors were a very tough team to play against. But LeBron saw the cracks in the foundation. He knew an opportunity was there and he took full advantage of it, which any great player would do. Jordan did the exact same thing and we praise him as the greatest player of all time, and rightfully so.

See above. There was no reason to think this would be a quick series.


I'm not trying to argue that the Warriors were the 73 win team we saw in the regular season. The fact of the matter is, they didn't have to be. They still took the first two games by a record breaking margin. They took game 4 with little difficulty. It was very clear that they were the better team and it wasn't even close. I still to this day do not know what the hell happened with game 3 where they lost by 30 points. That was honestly one of the strangest occurences I had ever witnessed in my life and I don't have anything rational to explain it. I can honestly just say that it was a fluke and nothing more. But of course, Cleveland coming back in games 5, 6 and 7 kind of hurt that point now don't they?

Now with all of that said, the Warriors not being the 73 win team also hurt them in the end and allowed Cleveland to comeback in the first place. Those injuries all added up in the end, and without them, LeBron's tenure in Cleveland would be considered a failure. Then again, Durant probably doesn't go to Golden State (if we believe his words that he only went there because he felt they needed him, which is laughable) and Cleveland could just as easily come back the next year and possibly win. Who knows. All we do know is that LeBron did in fact win a title there so it doesn't even matter.

Sure. Cleveland could have won one in 2017, arguably would have won one since KD wouldn't go there. However they still shouldn't get extra credit for beating a 73-win team. The 2016 Warriors the way they played in those playoffs were a very good team but they weren't an all-time great juggernaut. Your post admitted to that as well. Again I'm not saying the Warriors weren't good but as you even admitted, they weren't "73-win good" which means that narrative shouldn't be shoved down our throats.


I guess this is something we can only take a "wait and see" approach with.


Let's see what happens. My guess is Iggy definitely doesn't make it but at least one of Klay/Green makes it maybe both.

[SaintzFury13]

In the 2015 Finals, the Cavs without Kyrie and Love took a fully healthy Warriors team to 6 games. And now a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love couldn't touch a Warriors team coming in with weaker form? Come on...

The difference between the 2015 Warriors and the 2016 Warriors is night and day. Curry was far better in 2016 than he was in 2015, as was Klay. And yet, the one who made the biggest improvement was arguably Draymond. He became the teams main floor general and facilitator and he improved as a shooter. This made the Warriors a match up nightmare for Cleveland because they knew that starting Kevin Love meant running the risk of him being lit up on defense by multiple people. It didn't even have to be Curry anymore. He couldn't even guard Green at that point. Hell, even Barnes improved. 2015 Warriors were a great team but were beatable. 2016 Warriors were a legitimate juggernaut. The only reason the Thunder came close to beating them is, once again, match up advantages. People don't seem to understand how valuable those are.

Hell, lets take that one step further shall we?

Yes, the Cavaliers took the Warriors to 6 games in 2015. But let me ask you this question and I want you to think about this for a moment: why do you think the Cavaliers were able to take the Warriors to six games? Really think about that for a moment.

The Cavaliers had Irving in game 1 and forced the game into overtime. It was clear having that second option on offense was a huge benefit for LeBron and it helped the Cavaliers as a whole. But when game 2 came around the corner, Irving was no longer around and yet Cleveland came out on top. And they even took game 3 as well.

It couldn't possibly be due to LeBron alone. Perhaps it was due to the fact that the Cavaliers were forced to become a do or die defensive minded unit who had to play with literally everything they had just to come out with a victory? Let's look at the positions. Curry was being guarded by Delly who could run around the floor all night long like a maniac with no regard for him or anyone else around him. Klay was guarded by Shumpert who at that point was still a great defensive perimeter player. Draymond was guarded by Thompson who was strong, lengthy, and had enough mobility to keep up with Draymond so he was kept in check. Bogut had Mozgov to deal with, and while Bogut was obviously a much better player, Mozgov was very mobile seven foot center who had long arms and decent defensive instincts.

My point in all of this? The moment Irving went down, the Warriors had no real match up advantages to work with for the next two games. Even without that second all star caliber player, Cleveland was able to stay in check and even squeak out two games because there weren't any real weaknesses to exploit. Or at least, that's what appeared to be the case. In game 4, Kerr decided to start Iggy and go small and just like that, the Cavaliers were ****ed. At that point, they had no chance of winning. The Warriors could have just did this from the start and Cleveland would have been screwed. They had no real answer to the Warriors going small ball.

Let's fast forward to 2016 shall we? Mozgov had a knee injury at the beginning of the season and was noticeably worse at the start of it, to the point where he went from being a key role player in 2015 to being a bench warmer in 2016 in the finals. Shumpert had injury issues all season long and was back to being on the bench after being a start in the finals. They had to rely on Thompson to be their rim protecting center. They went from having a pretty decent bench in 2015 to having an abysmal one in 2016, with their most noteworthy bench player being an out of prime Richard Jefferson (who was at least still helpful to Cleveland winning the finals, but still...). And to top it all off, David Blatt got fired and his replacement was a significantly worse coach in Lue. I will say that Lue did one thing better, and that was use Kevin Love a lot more on offense and incorporate his post up game better. But he played two full games in the 2016 finals, and while he had the stop on Curry in game 7, his presence wasn't much of a factor in Cleveland coming back in the end. He had two good games and that was it.

What I'm trying to say is that you can't compare 2015 and 2016. You can't go off of what happened in one year, and then try to compare that with the next. I would have thought after what happened with the Heat and Spurs in 2013 and 2014 that this argument holds no weight, but I was apparently mistaken.


I don't think Lebron deserves extra credit for the Indians, Browns and Blue Jackets sucking... or even for the Cavs not winning before he arrived in Cleveland. Why would we judge someone using criteria that has nothing to do with them playing basketball? It doesn't make sense to me...

Buddy, rings are not just judged by what happened out there on the court. Why do you think Dirk's ring means so much? Why do you think Jordan's sixth ring meant so much? Why do you think Kobe's fifth ring, despite his dreaded game 7 performance, meant so much to his legacy? Championships are about a lot more than just beating the other team. It's about what they mean to both the player, the city they represent and the sport in general. No championship did more for any city than LeBron's title win in Cleveland. And it meant more that HE was the one who did it. It didn't just get LeBron his third championship: it defined his legacy. He became the kid who grew up in Akron, witnessed Cleveland's shortcomings, and became the man who put all of that to an end. No matter what else he does at this point, that is what he will be known for when it is all said and done. He will be the man who ended the Cleveland sports draught. At this point, any other rings that he does have are bonus points. And that's pretty insane to think about because his 2013 ring was one he really had to fight hard to earn, and it came against the Duncan-led Spurs no less.

[SaintzFury13]

See above. There was no reason to think this would be a quick series.

Numerous match up advantages with one of the regular season meetings being an absolutely one sided beatdown of a game? There absolutely were reasons to think this would be a quick series.


Sure. Cleveland could have won one in 2017, arguably would have won one since KD wouldn't go there. However they still shouldn't get extra credit for beating a 73-win team. The 2016 Warriors the way they played in those playoffs were a very good team but they weren't an all-time great juggernaut. Your post admitted to that as well. Again I'm not saying the Warriors weren't good but as you even admitted, they weren't "73-win good" which means that narrative shouldn't be shoved down our throats.

I didn't admit to anything of the sort. The only thing I stated was that it was clear the Warriors were beat up and exhausted from that Thunder series and weren't the same team that they were before. A 73 win team doesn't mean anything if the team you are playing against has significant match up advantages against you. That's the only reason the Thunder came close to beating them. The very fact that the Warriors were able to overcome those while being down 3-1 was proof that they ARE an all time great team and that they deserve that praise. The fact that the Cavaliers needed injuries on their end as well as a timely suspension just to beat them IS proof that they are one of the greatest teams of all time. You really needed a perfect storm of events just to have a chance against this team.

And the fact of the matter is, 10 or 20 years from now, people aren't going to remember the Warriors being an exhausted and beat up team going into that finals. They still played like they were the superior team, the narrative is always going to be there. They were a juggernaut while the Cavaliers were clearly inferior. They fought back however thanks to historic performances by LeBron and thus pulled off the greatest comeback in NBA history. Look at what happened with Jordan's 96 run with the Bulls. Look at how many people still give him so much credit for that series win, even though in reality it was arguably his worst finals performance ever, Gary Payton gave him fits all series long and Dennis Rodman practically carried them on his back. Almost no one remembers that, because it's a lot easier to look back at the series, see the records, see who played, and come to the conclusion that Bulls overcame a very good and very game Supersonics team on the backbone of Jordan being Jordan. Yeah, technically that's correct. But there's much more to it than that. In reality, there always is, with every finals series. Hell, Dirk gets so much credit for that 2011 ring and rightfully so, but he would have probably retired a ring less hall of fame candidate had it not been for Tyson Chandler being on that team. Think about how many people still only know about Ray Allen's three pointer in game 6 of the 2013 NBA Finals, but don't know about LeBron scoring 16 points in that very quarter to bring Miami back into the game after the Spurs had a double digit lead in that very quarter. My point is, it all comes down to what you do when the opportunity presents itself, what you do when it's time to play and what you did at the end of the game when that final buzzer sounds. That's all people are going to care about.

[Mr. Woke]

All rings are worth the same.

It's pathetic to put down certain accomplishments in order to prop up other accomplishments.

[dankok8]

The difference between the 2015 Warriors and the 2016 Warriors is night and day. Curry was far better in 2016 than he was in 2015, as was Klay. And yet, the one who made the biggest improvement was arguably Draymond. He became the teams main floor general and facilitator and he improved as a shooter. This made the Warriors a match up nightmare for Cleveland because they knew that starting Kevin Love meant running the risk of him being lit up on defense by multiple people. It didn't even have to be Curry anymore. He couldn't even guard Green at that point. Hell, even Barnes improved. 2015 Warriors were a great team but were beatable. 2016 Warriors were a legitimate juggernaut. The only reason the Thunder came close to beating them is, once again, match up advantages. People don't seem to understand how valuable those are.

Hell, lets take that one step further shall we?

Yes, the Cavaliers took the Warriors to 6 games in 2015. But let me ask you this question and I want you to think about this for a moment: why do you think the Cavaliers were able to take the Warriors to six games? Really think about that for a moment.

The Cavaliers had Irving in game 1 and forced the game into overtime. It was clear having that second option on offense was a huge benefit for LeBron and it helped the Cavaliers as a whole. But when game 2 came around the corner, Irving was no longer around and yet Cleveland came out on top. And they even took game 3 as well.

It couldn't possibly be due to LeBron alone. Perhaps it was due to the fact that the Cavaliers were forced to become a do or die defensive minded unit who had to play with literally everything they had just to come out with a victory? Let's look at the positions. Curry was being guarded by Delly who could run around the floor all night long like a maniac with no regard for him or anyone else around him. Klay was guarded by Shumpert who at that point was still a great defensive perimeter player. Draymond was guarded by Thompson who was strong, lengthy, and had enough mobility to keep up with Draymond so he was kept in check. Bogut had Mozgov to deal with, and while Bogut was obviously a much better player, Mozgov was very mobile seven foot center who had long arms and decent defensive instincts.

My point in all of this? The moment Irving went down, the Warriors had no real match up advantages to work with for the next two games. Even without that second all star caliber player, Cleveland was able to stay in check and even squeak out two games because there weren't any real weaknesses to exploit. Or at least, that's what appeared to be the case. In game 4, Kerr decided to start Iggy and go small and just like that, the Cavaliers were ****ed. At that point, they had no chance of winning. The Warriors could have just did this from the start and Cleveland would have been screwed. They had no real answer to the Warriors going small ball.

Let's fast forward to 2016 shall we? Mozgov had a knee injury at the beginning of the season and was noticeably worse at the start of it, to the point where he went from being a key role player in 2015 to being a bench warmer in 2016 in the finals. Shumpert had injury issues all season long and was back to being on the bench after being a start in the finals. They had to rely on Thompson to be their rim protecting center. They went from having a pretty decent bench in 2015 to having an abysmal one in 2016, with their most noteworthy bench player being an out of prime Richard Jefferson (who was at least still helpful to Cleveland winning the finals, but still...). And to top it all off, David Blatt got fired and his replacement was a significantly worse coach in Lue. I will say that Lue did one thing better, and that was use Kevin Love a lot more on offense and incorporate his post up game better. But he played two full games in the 2016 finals, and while he had the stop on Curry in game 7, his presence wasn't much of a factor in Cleveland coming back in the end. He had two good games and that was it.

What I'm trying to say is that you can't compare 2015 and 2016. You can't go off of what happened in one year, and then try to compare that with the next. I would have thought after what happened with the Heat and Spurs in 2013 and 2014 that this argument holds no weight, but I was apparently mistaken.

This is a good post but the Cavs' players also improved. Kyrie was markedly better in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs than he ever was before and was of course healthy. Tristan also improved. Love was at least semi-healthy in 2016 after missing most of the 2015 playoffs. There is also the often undiscussed topic of motivation. The team that lost the previous year in the finals will be super motivated to win in the second meeting and will often play with more fire.

Again I think the ESPN predictions did match the general sentiment. The Warriors were favored but it was going to be a long series.


Buddy, rings are not just judged by what happened out there on the court. Why do you think Dirk's ring means so much? Why do you think Jordan's sixth ring meant so much? Why do you think Kobe's fifth ring, despite his dreaded game 7 performance, meant so much to his legacy? Championships are about a lot more than just beating the other team. It's about what they mean to both the player, the city they represent and the sport in general. No championship did more for any city than LeBron's title win in Cleveland. And it meant more that HE was the one who did it. It didn't just get LeBron his third championship: it defined his legacy. He became the kid who grew up in Akron, witnessed Cleveland's shortcomings, and became the man who put all of that to an end. No matter what else he does at this point, that is what he will be known for when it is all said and done. He will be the man who ended the Cleveland sports draught.


Rings should be judged by what happened on the court. Narratives matter to some people. They don't matter to me.

Of course narratives also work against the player too. Lebron will always have a lot of negative narratives surrounding him too... like playing in a soft era without handchecking, like colluding with other stars etc. You'll never see me using those in arguments either.

[Mauzah]

So much credit to Kong for beating a 70 win team... do you guys not realize that Jordan and the Bulls WERE THE 70 WIN TEAM. How the **** can they beat themselves? The Bulls defined basketball excellence in the 90's and not only that... sustained basketball excellence all through the 90's. A true DYNASTY.

[SaintzFury13]

This is a good post but the Cavs' players also improved. Kyrie was markedly better in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs than he ever was before and was of course healthy. Tristan also improved. Love was at least semi-healthy in 2016 after missing most of the 2015 playoffs. There is also the often undiscussed topic of motivation. The team that lost the previous year in the finals will be super motivated to win in the second meeting and will often play with more fire.

Not really...Kyrie was more or less the same in 2016 and you could argue he was actually more of a liability. At least in the one game he played in 2015, he did a semi decent job of guarding Curry and even came up with a huge block towards the end of the fourth quarter that gave Cleveland a chance to win. This is all while playing with an injury keep in mind.

Compare that to game 1 of the 2016 finals, where he not only shot his team out of the game but got lit up by Shaun Livingston. Many consider Kevin Love to be the better player in that game and this was supposed to be the guy who was the true match up liability against the Warriors.


Again I think the ESPN predictions did match the general sentiment. The Warriors were favored but it was going to be a long series.

I can tell you right now that was not the general sentiment. I can't speak for every other state, but in Ohio, a LOT of people were expecting this to be a short series, even though they didn't want it to be. There were some people who were extremely confident and for obvious reasons, but for the most part, pretty much everyone felt the Cavaliers stood no chance. Many had it ending in 4, which I felt was a bit extreme.

But either way, I just can't see how anyone could have looked at that series beforehand, and thought this was a series that was going to go 7 games. There was no writing on the wall that gave Cleveland any realistic chance of winning. Hindsight being 20/20 now, obviously it's clear just how much of a difference a couple nagging injuries made for the Warriors, as well as losing Bogut permanently. But just looking at these teams back to back...it's really just not close.


Rings should be judged by what happened on the court. Narratives matter to some people. They don't matter to me.

It's not a matter of narratives. I would argue it's more about significance. Some rings just mean more to some people than others. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked LeBron which ring he valued most and what he'd talk about the most after his career is over, it'd probably be the Cleveland one. If Kobe were alive today and you asked him which ring meant the most to him, it'd probably be the one he won against Boston. We all know MJ's fourth ring mattered the most to him due to the death of his father and the fact that it was his first ring back after coming out of retirement as well as that being the 72 win season for the Bulls.


Of course narratives also work against the player too. Lebron will always have a lot of negative narratives surrounding him too... like playing in a soft era without handchecking, like colluding with other stars etc. You'll never see me using those in arguments either.

Most smart people tend to not use those arguments because they're usually bullshit anyways.

[SaintzFury13]

All rings are worth the same.

It's pathetic to put down certain accomplishments in order to prop up other accomplishments.

All rings are absolutely not the same. If you were to put LeBron's championships in Miami and compare them with Durant's championship wins in Golden State, pretty much every sane person would admit that LeBron's are a lot more impressive and are worth more.

[Mr. Woke]

All rings are absolutely not the same. If you were to put LeBron's championships in Miami and compare them with Durant's championship wins in Golden State, pretty much every sane person would admit that LeBron's are a lot more impressive and are worth more.

All rings are worth the same.

Only an insane/mentally ill person would think otherwise.

[Axe]

All rings are absolutely not the same. If you were to put LeBron's championships in Miami and compare them with Durant's championship wins in Golden State, pretty much every sane person would admit that LeBron's are a lot more impressive and are worth more.
Versus durant, definitely yes. It was a miracle the warriors never had a chance to three-peat though after 2018. Don't care if they were hampered or not. It doesn't change the fact that they still had five all-stars from 2018 in their lineup, thus making them heavy favorites over the underdog raptors despite not having hca in the finals for the first time back then.

[Gileraracer]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016


:roll:

Superteam
Collusion
Ring chasing


DISQUALIFIED!

[SaintzFury13]

:roll:

Superteam
Collusion
Ring chasing


DISQUALIFIED!

Are all the anti-LeBron people on this site sharing the same account or something? Because they all seem to copy and paste the same dumbshit argument.

[SaintzFury13]

All rings are worth the same.

Only an insane/mentally ill person would think otherwise.

Okay, good luck trying to convince a sane person that Durant winning in GS was just as impressive as LeBron winning in Miami.

[Axe]

So much credit to Kong for beating a 70 win team... do you guys not realize that Jordan and the Bulls WERE THE 70 WIN TEAM. How the **** can they beat themselves? The Bulls defined basketball excellence in the 90's and not only that... sustained basketball excellence all through the 90's. A true DYNASTY.
They did so in a light and soft era. But in a team fan's perspective, yes. They were so exceptional back then.

[guy]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016
2- Dirk 2011
3- Duncan 2003
4- Hakeem 1994
5- Frazier 1970
6- Barry 1975
7- MJ 1993
8- Pistons 2004 (collective)
9- Williams 1979
10- Walton 1977

I might change my opinion based on what some of you say, but this is just off the top of my head.

LeBron and the Cavs run in 2016 was impressive solely because of what he was able to do (leading in all five major statistical categories) by beating a 73 win team with the unanimous MVP for his opponent.

Dirk stands out because his road was incredibly difficult, coupled with the fact that the Mavs beat a super-team in addition to Miami having HCA.

Duncan's was incredibly difficult given the carry job that he did and beating Shaq/Kobe.

Frazier's is impressive given Willis Reed's injury and beating a super-team in LA, not to mention putting up something like 36/7/19 in game 6.

MJ's was impressive due to the dog fight that they had against the Knicks in 6 games and then going off for 41 PPG despite not having HCA, as well as Pippen playing on a bad ankle for the entire season.

Barry's ring is severely underrated!

What is everyone else's top 10?

The whole Lebron beat a 73 win team is a bit misleading. They were clearly not playing like a 73 win team during the playoffs. They lost just as many games in playoffs as they did in the regular season. Draymond was suspended one game. Bogut missed a few games. And say what you want about Steph - he was injured or he just flat out choked - he wasn't playing like he was a unanimous MVP and that wasn't due to anything Cleveland was doing. Not to mention Cleveland's run through the East was so much easier relative to history. In fact, I'd probably put Lebron's 2012 run ahead of this.

Dirk beating Miami is misleading too. He wasn't anything special in those finals. He benefitted from the biggest superstar meltdown in NBA history. He deserves to be called a champion, but that had way more to do with Lebron choking vs anything he did. Its not like he was just going toe to toe with them and ended up with the upper hand ala KD vs Giannis this year.

With that said, you can pick apart literally every ring in NBA history, so I can't really argue much about their place in history.

I'd also say Jordan's entire three-peat was as good as 1993, Hakeem's 1995 was a little better than 1994, and Shaq's 2000 and 2001 deserves some recognition.

People get too hung up on arguing about competition and teammates quality. All that shit doesn't matter to me as much cause like I said, you can pick apart every ring in history. You can feel the dominance of a playoff run as you're watching and its usually reflective in the statline. In no order, I'd probably put 1991/1992/1993 Jordan, 1994/1995 Hakeem, 2000/2001 Shaq, and 2012/2016 Lebron in the top 10.

[sdot_thadon]

The whole Lebron beat a 73 win team is a bit misleading. They were clearly not playing like a 73 win team during the playoffs. They lost just as many games in playoffs as they did in the regular season. Draymond was suspended one game. Bogut missed a few games. And say what you want about Steph - he was injured or he just flat out choked - he wasn't playing like he was a unanimous MVP and that wasn't due to anything Cleveland was doing. Not to mention Cleveland's run through the East was so much easier relative to history. In fact, I'd probably put Lebron's 2012 run ahead of this.

Dirk beating Miami is misleading too. He wasn't anything special in those finals. He benefitted from the biggest superstar meltdown in NBA history. He deserves to be called a champion, but that had way more to do with Lebron choking vs anything he did. Its not like he was just going toe to toe with them and ended up with the upper hand ala KD vs Giannis this year.

With that said, you can pick apart literally every ring in NBA history, so I can't really argue much about their place in history.

I'd also say Jordan's entire three-peat was as good as 1993, Hakeem's 1995 was a little better than 1994, and Shaq's 2000 and 2001 deserves some recognition.

People get too hung up on arguing about competition and teammates quality. All that shit doesn't matter to me as much cause like I said, you can pick apart every ring in history. You can feel the dominance of a playoff run as you're watching and its usually reflective in the statline. In no order, I'd probably put 1991/1992/1993 Jordan, 1994/1995 Hakeem, 2000/2001 Shaq, and 2012/2016 Lebron in the top 10.

I don't like the idea of retroactively trying to diminish the level of the 2016 warriors after the result, these guys were in talks to be better than the 96 bulls just a short period of time before the finals. Bogut missing games was something that mattered, but did he matter more than Love missing a game and being concussed during those Finals? I'd say no. If we discounted every swing of luck in every title run then none would be special at all, so I prefer not to do that. 2016 was the greatest for me, it had it all: legendary performance, legendary opponent, entertaining narratives all around and high drama in the games, not to mention it comes down to the last possession.

Dirks run was special because of the gauntlet of teams he went through and especially the team he was able to overcome in the finals. Hakeems 95 run was similar in this aspect and was probably the greatest moment in the city's sports history.

For Mj I actually lean toward the 98 ring as his greatest just because it had probably the most adversity and the way he ended things was a storybook ending.

I think the competition does matter in the sense that hopefully you faced worthy comp and healthy comp. That isn't alway the case but you can only play who's in front of you right?

[hold this L]

2015 Warriors

- longest odds of any eventual champion at the start of the season in at least 20 years
- a roster of ingenues none of whom had ever been in a finals
- first-time coach
- highest paid player on the team wasn't available for much of the playoffs
- strong 67-win season
- faced the highest seeds possible on their path
- led by an All-NBA First Team player they faced and beat every other player chosen for the All-NBA First Team

Which I think was never done before #hardestroad

[Mr. Woke]

Okay, good luck trying to convince a sane person that Durant winning in GS was just as impressive as LeBron winning in Miami.

Insane people think that different rings have different values.

[rmt]

They did so in a light and soft era. But in a team fan's perspective, yes. They were so exceptional back then.

Amazing that some think the 90s were light and soft (and I ain't no fan of MJ and the Bulls). Today is the the definition of light and soft where you can't even lay a hand on a player on the perimeter - we won't even talk about in the paint.

[SaintzFury13]

I don't like the idea of retroactively trying to diminish the level of the 2016 warriors after the result, these guys were in talks to be better than the 96 bulls just a short period of time before the finals. Bogut missing games was something that mattered, but did he matter more than Love missing a game and being concussed during those Finals? I'd say no.

Warriors losing Bogut was a much bigger blow to them than the Cavaliers losing Love.

Granted, Love is obviously the better player than Bogut in 2016, but the Warriors weren't built to handle losing a key piece of the rotation. The Cavaliers were a lot more talent driven. They didn't need any one specific player for a guy like LeBron to still be able to go off. He just could. Same with Irving. Same with Love. JR Smith would still be able to do his thing. Thompson would still be able to do his thing. Hell, losing Love actually benefited the Cavaliers because it forced them to go small which caused problems for the Warriors in game 3. In game 4 they were able to counter it, but it bought the Cavaliers a win that they desperately needed. Love was a legitimate defensive liability, especially with Green becoming the main playmaker for the Warriors. And with Irving also in the starting line up, that was already one too many defensive liabilities that the Cavaliers had. And with Green guarding him, it was going to be much harder for Love to consistently score even though he had a great game 1 performance. He wasn't instrumental to the Cavaliers success (which is why I once again laugh at anyone who uses the super team argument for the Cavaliers 2016 title win).

Losing Bogut meant multiple things for the Warriors. First off, it meant losing a terrific passing center who helped the Warriors offense flow properly. Second, Bogut was one of the best screeners in the NBA (although most of them were illegal, he was one of the best at setting them and getting away with it), and this often helped Curry and Thompson get into rhythm early with easy open looks that he helped create for them. Third, they lost their best rim protecting center who was also capable of defending outside the paint. This not only gave people like Irving and LeBron room to attack the paint at will, it allowed them to set up whoever they started at center (which ended up being poor Ezili who constantly got lit up at the perimeter on switches), and the Warriors couldn't respond by going small ball because Cleveland actually had the personal to counteract it.

People don't realize just how badly losing Bogut screwed the Warriors over.

[sdot_thadon]

Warriors losing Bogut was a much bigger blow to them than the Cavaliers losing Love.

Granted, Love is obviously the better player than Bogut in 2016, but the Warriors weren't built to handle losing a key piece of the rotation. The Cavaliers were a lot more talent driven. They didn't need any one specific player for a guy like LeBron to still be able to go off. He just could. Same with Irving. Same with Love. JR Smith would still be able to do his thing. Thompson would still be able to do his thing. Hell, losing Love actually benefited the Cavaliers because it forced them to go small which caused problems for the Warriors in game 3. In game 4 they were able to counter it, but it bought the Cavaliers a win that they desperately needed. Love was a legitimate defensive liability, especially with Green becoming the main playmaker for the Warriors. And with Irving also in the starting line up, that was already one too many defensive liabilities that the Cavaliers had. And with Green guarding him, it was going to be much harder for Love to consistently score even though he had a great game 1 performance. He wasn't instrumental to the Cavaliers success (which is why I once again laugh at anyone who uses the super team argument for the Cavaliers 2016 title win).

Losing Bogut meant multiple things for the Warriors. First off, it meant losing a terrific passing center who helped the Warriors offense flow properly. Second, Bogut was one of the best screeners in the NBA (although most of them were illegal, he was one of the best at setting them and getting away with it), and this often helped Curry and Thompson get into rhythm early with easy open looks that he helped create for them. Third, they lost their best rim protecting center who was also capable of defending outside the paint. This not only gave people like Irving and LeBron room to attack the paint at will, it allowed them to set up whoever they started at center (which ended up being poor Ezili who constantly got lit up at the perimeter on switches), and the Warriors couldn't respond by going small ball because Cleveland actually had the personal to counteract it.

People don't realize just how badly losing Bogut screwed the Warriors over.

I don't disagree with any of that, but all things considered Bogut only played 12 min a game in those finals as opposed to 20 min a game during the season and 17 in the playoffs as a whole. He was less playable during the postseason and especially in the finals when they had a preference to run the "death lineup" more often. Side note: he was like a -25 for the series, although he had the best def. rating for his teammates. I get the value he had as an anchor for them but the Cavs kinda forced the Warriors to play to their strengths more than normal which meant less Bogut anyway.

[Axe]

Amazing that some think the 90s were light and soft (and I ain't no fan of MJ and the Bulls). Today is the the definition of light and soft where you can't even lay a hand on a player on the perimeter - we won't even talk about in the paint.
Eh maybe but what i was trying to point out there was the competition back then lol. Today's players are better than ever.

[rmt]

Eh maybe but what i was trying to point out there was the competition back then lol. Today's players are better than ever.

I respectfully disagree. Today's players (on a whole) are stronger, faster and have longer careers because of better nutrition, better medical treatment, better training, etc. - they benefit from more knowledge and technology (in being discovered too). But in terms of basketball skills, they are not "better". Since GSW, (imo) there is too much emphasis on 3 point shooting to the detriment of other basketball skills. Together with current rules of the NBA, we will probably (eventually) have a majority of players who do little but hoist up 3 point shots.

[ELITEpower23]

After the goat ring?

https://i.postimg.cc/nh2Lbys5/q23y4-RX6033-Xzw-LQ-5549-B19-Jx32.png

Who knows

[Axe]

I respectfully disagree. Today's players (on a whole) are stronger, faster and have longer careers because of better nutrition, better medical treatment, better training, etc. - they benefit from more knowledge and technology (in being discovered too). But in terms of basketball skills, they are not "better". Since GSW, (imo) there is too much emphasis on 3 point shooting to the detriment of other basketball skills. Together with current rules of the NBA, we will probably (eventually) have a majority of players who do little but hoist up 3 point shots.
Ah i do see your point but the three-point festival has also allowed teams to come back from huge deficits, aside from having high octane scoring that is. And with that, more bigger men are now also familiar in making those shots beyond the arc. If the goal is to score higher than opponents, then that's more ideal. It may be boresome to watch because they can do so without putting much effort each game but at least it's effective.

[Sulico]

I'm not gonna put anything I didn't watch, so nothing before 80's

2005 Spurs - Best finals of all time in my opinion with 2 men: Duncan and Ginobili prevailing over one of the best, most balanced and hardest teams ever
2011 Mavs - We all know the story
1995 Rockets - Amazing carry job by one of the greatest players ever, winning championship over Barkley/Johnson, Jordan/Pippen, Stockton/Mallone, Shaq/Hardaway and finishing with the sweep.
2013 Heat - Lebron and the superteam barely squeezing chip out of one of the best teams of all time.
2014 Spurs - Maybe the best team of all time. Precursor of the modern basketball.
2001 Lakers - Amazing show of power and dominance.
2017 Warriors - Another instance of incredible dominance. Was scary to watch.
1996 Bulls - incredible regular season, followed by solid postseason, but 2 losses against "meh" team in the finals
2004 Pistons - Good team that became great at the end of the season and stopped failing superteam.

[SaintzFury13]

I don't disagree with any of that, but all things considered Bogut only played 12 min a game in those finals as opposed to 20 min a game during the season and 17 in the playoffs as a whole. He was less playable during the postseason and especially in the finals when they had a preference to run the "death lineup" more often. Side note: he was like a -25 for the series, although he had the best def. rating for his teammates. I get the value he had as an anchor for them but the Cavs kinda forced the Warriors to play to their strengths more than normal which meant less Bogut anyway.

The problem is that the death line up simply did not work against Cleveland as well as it did against other teams. Cleveland had the personal to counter it. Obviously they weren't able to fully minimize it's effectiveness, but it was enough to prevent a Golden State victory from being a guarantee. And obviously, that ended up not being the case anyways.

I do see your point, and in this particular case, Bogut didn't matter as much as Curry and Iggy being injured, but in the grand scheme of things, Bogut is still far more valuable to Golden State than Kevin Love is to Cleveland.

[Gileraracer]

Are all the anti-LeBron people on this site sharing the same account or something? Because they all seem to copy and paste the same dumbshit argument.

Let's not forget that the refs had to help him when he was down 3 to 1.

[2much_knowledge]

1984 Bird and 1995 Hakeem come to mind

[SaintzFury13]

Let's not forget that the refs had to help him when he was down 3 to 1.

Give me three examples of the refs handing the Cavaliers the 2016 series.

[HoopsNY]

bump

[Chick Stern]

The 2010 ring.
Greatest defensive series and defensive final game of all time

[Stephonit]

Give me three examples of the refs handing the Cavaliers the 2016 series.

Draymond suspension.

Curry fouled out.

Curry's father-in-law being detained during Game 6.

[Jasper]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016
2- Dirk 2011
3- Duncan 2003
4- Hakeem 1994
5- Frazier 1970
6- Barry 1975
7- MJ 1993
8- Pistons 2004 (collective)
9- Williams 1979
10- Walton 1977



Not including a final game to win a chip w/50 points and carry his team (Giannis) forgot about him... OP puts Walton above him ??:facepalm

[RRR3]

Draymond suspension.

Curry fouled out.

Curry's father-in-law being detained during Game 6.
:roll:

[HoopsNY]

Not including a final game to win a chip w/50 points and carry his team (Giannis) forgot about him... OP puts Walton above him ??:facepalm

Judging by this post, it appeared to me that you might be young, but I notice that you joined in 2006, so you can't be that young.

Anyway, growing up, Bill Walton and the 1977 season for the Trailblazers was always highly regarded and spoken of. And I'm talking the early 90s here.

For one, that was almost an entirely new team. They had a new coach (bringing in Jack Ramsey), and they brought in a bunch of new guys (I think six or seven new players joined the team that year). The Blazers weren't even a playoff team in 1976, prior to winning the championship. The hurdles they had to overcome with a new team, new coaching, chemistry, have to account for something.

Then, in the playoffs, they beat all the teams that had better records than they did, including Kareem and the Lakers. And this wasn't a 1988 Kareem, or even a 1985 Kareem that won Finals MVP. This was peak Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And the Blazers swept them.

They then go off and lose the first two games in the finals, only to comeback to win the series against peak Dr. J's Sixers. Walton's line in the final game? 20/23/7/8 on 53% - one of the greatest stat lines for clincher, ever.

2021 was characterized by Covid, where teams didn't even have fans in the building during the regular season, and the season was cut short because of it, followed by a Miami team that was all over the place this season with injuries - a Brooklyn team that had a crippled Harden playing, no Kyrie, and no Dinwiddie - a Hawks team that had to be one of the weakest ECF teams in league history, in addition to Young being hurt - and a Suns team that had no business being in the finals to begin with.

Not to mention Giannis receiving all-time great defense from Jrue and a sidekick in Middleton who put up 24/8/5/2 on 55% TS% throughout the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong, what Giannis did in the finals was spectacular, but I'm not sure that his run, in totality, was as impressive as some of the other names/teams, maybe Williams in 1979.

[1987_Lakers]

Not including a final game to win a chip w/50 points and carry his team (Giannis) forgot about him... OP puts Walton above him ??:facepalm

Bill Walton is actually a good mention, this was the first NBA championship with all the good ABA players now in the NBA, Walton beat the best defensive team in the NBA (Nuggets) in the 2nd round that had 3 future hall of famers in their prime, beat a peak Kareem in the WCF and a Sixers team that was more talented than the Blazers in the Finals after being down 0-2, Walton was one of those players who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet, he provided GOAT level defense, rebounding, & was by far the greatest passing big ever at that time. If you want to know how important Walton was to the Blazers just check how the Blazers performed with and without him the next season, they were 48-10 with Walton and 10-14 without him.

It's really a shame how some fans don't know how good peak Bill Walton was, he was basically Bill Russell with better offense.

[HoopsNY]

Bill Walton is actually a good mention, this was the first NBA championship with all the good ABA players now in the NBA, Walton beat the best defensive team in the NBA (Nuggets) in the 2nd round that had 3 future hall of famers in their prime, beat a peak Kareem in the WCF and a Sixers team that was more talented than the Blazers in the Finals after being down 0-2, Walton was one of those players who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet, he provided GOAT level defense, rebounding, & was by far the greatest passing big ever at that time. If you want to know how important Walton was to the Blazers just check how the Blazers performed with and without him the next season, they were 48-10 with Walton and 10-14 without him.

It's really a shame how some fans don't know how good peak Bill Walton was, he was basically Bill Russell with better offense.

GOAT post. Preach bruh.

[Jasper]

I have been watching bball before you were born ... I started in 1970.
And yes I watched Walton in person as well as on the tube.
Walton has NOTHING on Giannis(.)

[dankok8]

Bill Walton was called by several contemporaries as the greatest center of all time. Obviously most picked Russell, or Wilt or Kareem but some did pick Walton. Puts in perspective for you how good the guy was I guess.

[HoopsNY]

I have been watching bball before you were born ... I started in 1970.
And yes I watched Walton in person as well as on the tube.
Walton has NOTHING on Giannis(.)

I believe you, but then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Keep in mind that my OP has more to do with not only the finals, but the road to that finals. When factoring everything that happened in 2021, including the plethora of injuries, I find it difficult to put Giannis' ring above Walton's.

I can't imagine anyone would come to a different conclusion about Walton. The Blazers' run up to that title victory was nothing short of spectacular.

[Bronbron23]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are everyone's thoughts on the greatest rings of all-time for an individual player? Mine would be as follows:

1- LeBron 2016
2- Dirk 2011
3- Duncan 2003
4- Hakeem 1994
5- Frazier 1970
6- Barry 1975
7- MJ 1993
8- Pistons 2004 (collective)
9- Williams 1979
10- Walton 1977

I might change my opinion based on what some of you say, but this is just off the top of my head.

LeBron and the Cavs run in 2016 was impressive solely because of what he was able to do (leading in all five major statistical categories) by beating a 73 win team with the unanimous MVP for his opponent.

Dirk stands out because his road was incredibly difficult, coupled with the fact that the Mavs beat a super-team in addition to Miami having HCA.

Duncan's was incredibly difficult given the carry job that he did and beating Shaq/Kobe.

Frazier's is impressive given Willis Reed's injury and beating a super-team in LA, not to mention putting up something like 36/7/19 in game 6.

MJ's was impressive due to the dog fight that they had against the Knicks in 6 games and then going off for 41 PPG despite not having HCA, as well as Pippen playing on a bad ankle for the entire season.

Barry's ring is severely underrated!

What is everyone else's top 10?

Honestly u seem like a pretty good poster but this list is questionable. My main issue with this is having 2016 bron and cavs as number 1. Steph is widely known as a finals underperformer. I don't want to say choker because that's a bit harsh. So how is beating a team who only had one asterisk chip that's lead by a finals underperformer who only impacts half the game number 1?

[HoopsNY]

Honestly u seem like a pretty good poster but this list is questionable. My main issue with this is having 2016 bron and cavs as number 1. Steph is widely known as a finals underperformer. I don't want to say choker because that's a bit harsh. So how is beating a team who only had one asterisk chip that's lead by a finals underperformer who only impacts half the game number 1?

Yea, solid points. I think I'm more fixated with LeBron's overall stat line and ignoring the greater context, including the road to the finals.

In retrospect, Hakeem's 1994 title, Dirk's 2011, and Duncan's 2003 all have to be higher.

[Bronbron23]

Yea, solid points. I think I'm more fixated with LeBron's overall stat line and ignoring the greater context, including the road to the finals.

In retrospect, Hakeem's 1994 title, Dirk's 2011, and Duncan's 2003 all have to be higher.

I hear ya. Not taking anything away ftom bron. As usual he was pretty sick i just think other greats have beat much better teams. Moses malone put up crazy numbers while beating an atg team and players in 83 and that didn't make your list at all

[HoopsNY]

I hear ya. Not taking anything away ftom bron. As usual he was pretty sick i just think other greats have beat much better teams. Moses malone put up crazy numbers while beating an atg team and players in 83 and that didn't make your list at all

That's because I consider that team to be a superteam. It would be like me giving credit to KD in 2017 beating a Kyrie/LeBron/Love trio. Philly was a 59 win team prior and in the NBA finals in '82. Not only did they have Cheeks, Dr. J, and Toney, but they also had Bobby Jones. Guy has 11 All-Defensive selections.

[Bronbron23]

That's because I consider that team to be a superteam. It would be like me giving credit to KD in 2017 beating a Kyrie/LeBron/Love trio. Philly was a 59 win team prior and in the NBA finals in '82. Not only did they have Cheeks, Dr. J, and Toney, but they also had Bobby Jones. Guy has 11 All-Defensive selections.

Yeah but how is that Philly team anymore of a super team than the 16 cavs? Dr j was well beyond his prime and cheeks was solid but he dosn't come close to kyrie.

[HoopsNY]

Yeah but how is that Philly team anymore of a super team than the 16 cavs? Dr j was well beyond his prime and cheeks was solid but he dosn't come close to kyrie.

Well Love was obsolete in the finals. He put up 9/7/1 on a woeful 36%, albeit he had a concussion. It certainly wasn't as if they had Love at full strength.

And I wouldn't say Dr. J was well beyond his prime in 1983. Dr. J was an All-Star and All-NBA 1st Team in 1983 in addition to being:

5th in MVP voting
5th in PER
8th in WS
4th in WS/48
3rd in BPM
5th in OBPM
3rd in VORP

He was at the tail end of his prime, but still very much in his prime.

[Nowitness]

Duncan 2003 without question is the greatest.

Dirk 2011 can't be up there. Dude was either his starting lineups worst, or second worst passer and defender.