Looking at Kobe's finals stats along with his game seven and elimination games stats.

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

[Gotterdammerung]

Great.

Now do the Game 7 and elimination games stats of others of Kobe Bryant's ilk like West, Chamberlain, Russell, Johnson, Bird, Olajuwon, Jordan, Duncan, O'Neal - at least the retired ones
:oldlol:

[coastalmarker99]

Great.

Now do the Game 7 and elimination games stats of others of Kobe Bryant's ilk like West, Chamberlain, Russell, Johnson, Bird, Olajuwon, Jordan, Duncan, O'Neal - at least the retired ones
:oldlol:


OK i will.


Here are Wilt's game seven averages

24.4 ppg

26.7 rpg

4.1 APG

62.6 FG%,

45.1 FT%

57.9 TS%.



Here are Wilt's numbers in 23 of his elimination games in the post season...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.



12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)

26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)

3.4 APG (Regular season career average was 4.4 APG)

54.0 FG% (Regular season career average was .54.0 FG%)

BTW, that .54.0 came against post-season NBA's that averaged an FG% of .43.5... or over 10% higher than the post-season league average!

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, that 31.1 ppg ranks just behind MJ (31.3 ppg) all-time

[hold this L]

OK i will.


Here are Wilt's game seven averages

24.4 ppg

26.7 rpg

4.1 APG

62.6 FG%,

45.1 FT%

57.9 TS%.



Here are Wilt's numbers in 23 of his elimination games in the post season...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.



12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)

26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)

3.4 APG (Regular season career average was 4.4 APG)

54.0 FG% (Regular season career average was .54.0 FG%)

BTW, that .54.0 came against post-season NBA's that averaged an FG% of .43.5... or over 10% higher than the post-season league average!

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, that 31.1 ppg ranks just behind MJ (31.3 ppg) all-time

Can you do them for the Chef? I'm legitimately curious. Also what do you use, bball ref?

[Gotterdammerung]

Thanks, though I figured you'd have only Wilt's stats handy. :oldlol:

That Wilt is one of the very greatest ever to play is no doubt.

But where he falls with other guys is up for question.
:kobe:

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Russell's game seven averages

48.8 MPG

18.6 PPG

44.7 FG%

69.4 FT%

29.3 RPG

3.7 AST



Here is Russell's elimination game averages

14.9 PPG

26.6 RPG

4.8 APG

49.4 TS%

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He eliminated Tim Duncan in 2008 and his 2nd option Pau Gasol gave him 13PPG on 47% TS

[coastalmarker99]

Can you do them for the Chef? I'm legitimately curious. Also what do you use, bball ref?


Here are Curry's game seven averages


42.5 MPG

28.3 PPG

FG 43.9%

3P% 43.8

FT 100.0%

6.0 RPG

7.3 APG

2.0 SPG

0.5 BPG



Here are Curry's elimination-games-stats


27.8 PPG

42.9 FG%

38.1 3P%

7.0 APG

6.1 RPG


and Curry's teams went 6-4 in those elimination games.

[TheCorporation]

Kobe fans right now:

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q4DtW2g/1flfq2.jpg

[coastalmarker99]

Steph's averages across the board jump up in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games



6 4 W-L record

27.8 ppg (Regular season career average is 24.2 ppg)

6.1 RPG(Regular season career average is 6.0 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 6.5 APG)

42.9 FG% (Regular season career average is .47.7 FG%)



Game sevens

3 1 W-L record

28.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 24.2 ppg)

6.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.0 rpg)

7.3 APG (Regular season career average is 6.5 APG)

43.9 FG% (Regular season career average is .47.7 FG%)

2.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.7 SPG)

0.5 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.2 BPG)

[hold this L]

Thanks. Why don't you include TS% when you do these breakdowns by the way? FG tells a big story, but TS especially in the 3 point era gives a more rounded answer to how efficient guys are nowadays. Got to say Kobe's #s are worse than I expected.

[kennygriffin]

if kobe lost most of the time in these situations it might be a big deal but he played hurt and won while shutting down everyone on the other side so ...

/thread

[1987_Lakers]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/p4cqQ0gUIMcU0/giphy.gif?cid=790b76119c0b064e2b99de29168c99898e3b e7c462e351a1&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[1987_Lakers]

if kobe lost most of the time in these situations it might be a big deal but he played hurt and won while shutting down everyone on the other side so ...

/thread

Kobe was 9-10 while facing elimination.

LeBron James in elimination games: 33.7 points, 7.5 assists, 10.8 rebounds, 49.1 FG%

14-10 record

lock it up boys.

[kennygriffin]

Kobe was 9-10 while facing elimination.

LeBron James in elimination games: 33.7 points, 7.5 assists, 10.8 rebounds, 49.1 FG%

14-10 record

lock it up boys.

why is it "when facing elimination and not in elimination games.. all that shows is that lebron had his best teams in the position to lose more often you dumbass lmao


and I'm sure 3 of those are on shaqs head from those 90s runs

[kennygriffin]

oh yeah and 2 of those 14 belong to Ray and kyrie lmao

[TheCorporation]

why is it "when facing elimination and not in elimination games.. all that shows is that lebron had his best teams in the position to lose more often you dumbass lmao


and I'm sure 3 of those are on shaqs head from those 90s runs

https://i.postimg.cc/gkdB9mFc/good-will-hunting-notyourfault.gif

[Gotterdammerung]

These stats are somewhat misleading across the board.

The way I see it, Kobe Bryant's career is easily divided into two stages:
Early Bryant: with Shaq as the primary option
Mature Bryant: without Shaq and Kobe's the primary option.

Mature Bryant averaged 29.1 ppg, 5.4 rpg and 5.2 apg in 89 playoff games (without Shaq).
Mature Bryant averaged 28.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg and 5.2 apg in 18 Finals games (without Shaq).

After all, we are willing to do the same for Chamberlain - whose career is divided into three stages: the record-breaking Chamberlain, Peak Chamberlain, and Lakers Chamberlain.

This context breakdown is especially effective for great players who went through different roles in their career.

[coastalmarker99]

Jerry west's averages across the board jump up in-game sevens and elimination games.

Game sevens


4 5 W-L record


30.9 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.8 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

47.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)

TS% 54.3 Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)





Elimination games

13 11 W-L record


29.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

6.4 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.4 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

55% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)

[1987_Lakers]

why is it "when facing elimination and not in elimination games.. all that shows is that lebron had his best teams in the position to lose more often you dumbass lmao


No, LeBron has played 46 more playoff games than Kobe so naturally he is going to play in more elimination games.

And even if you eliminate Kobe's 90's games here is what LeBron and '00-'12 Kobe produced in the playoffs...
Kobe - 28-5-5 on 45 fg%
LeBron - 29-9-7 on 50 fg%

LeBron is better across the board, there is not a single argument for Kobe being a better player than LeBron whatsoever.

[RRR3]

No, LeBron has played 46 more playoff games than Kobe so naturally he is going to play in more elimination games.

And even if you eliminate Kobe's 90's games here is what LeBron and '00-'12 Kobe produced in the playoffs...
Kobe - 28-5-5 on 45 fg%
LeBron - 29-9-7 on 50 fg%

LeBron is better across the board, there is not a single argument for Kobe being a better player than LeBron whatsoever.
Kobe’s 2002 ring is confirmed as rigged. Donaghy went to jail over it. So he has 4 real rings, same as LeBron. But one of those rings was won as a clear sidekick (2000). So LeBron actually has more legit rings as a 1 or 1a/1b.

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Tim Duncans averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games

7 13 W-L record


22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 19.0 ppg)

11.6 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.8 rpg)

2.8 APG (Regular season career average is 3.0 APG)

1.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

FG% 48.2% Regular season career average is 50.6%)




Game sevens

4 2 W-L record

24.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 19.0 ppg)

11.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.8 rpg)

2.7 APG (Regular season career average is 3.0 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

FG% 48.2% Regular season career average is 50.6%)

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Hakeem's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.

Game sevens


27.2 PPG (Regular season career average is 21.8 ppg)

13.6 RPG (Regular season career average is 11.1 rpg)

5.2 APG (Regular season career average is 2.5 APG)

2.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

1.4 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.7 SPG)

FG% 49.6% (Regular season career average is 51.2%)



Elimination games.

19 13 W-L record


24.0 PPG (Regular season career average is 21.8 ppg)

11.5 RPG (Regular season career average is 11.1 rpg)

3.1 APG (Regular season career average is 2.5 APG)

2.9 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

3.2 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.7 SPG)

FG% 53.1% (Regular season career average is 51.2%)

[Smoke117]

We already know Kobe is garbage when it counts. He would make a couple of really tough clutch shots while he missed 85% of the other ones and all his fanboys and stans would shit bricks. It's embarrassing how overrated he is in those situations because the stupid ass would go into hero ball extreme and basically try and shoot over three defenders while his teammates were wide open. Yeah, it looked nice and impressive when they would go in, but the problem arises when they would rarely ever go in as the shots were just terrible idiotic shots.

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Bird's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.

Game sevens

27.0 PPG (Regular season career average is 24.3 ppg)

9.3 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.0 rpg)

6.8 APG (Regular season career average is 6.3 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.4 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.7 SPG)

FG% 49.7% (Regular season career average is 49.6%)


Elimination games.

9 7 W-L record


24.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 24.3 ppg)

9.2 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.0 rpg)

6.2 APG (Regular season career average is 6.3 APG)

0.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.5 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.7 SPG)

TS% 53.5(Regular season career average is 56.4%)

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Shaq's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Game sevens

26.4 PPG (Regular season career average is 23.7 ppg)

10.5 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.9 rpg)

2.5 APG (Regular season career average is 2.5 APG)

2.5 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 BPG)

0.5 SPG (Regular season career average is 0.6 SPG)

FG% 58.8% (Regular season career average is 58.2%)



Elimination games

6 12 W-L record

25.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 23.7 ppg)

10.9 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.9 rpg)

2.0 APG (Regular season career average is 2.5 APG)

1.9 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 BPG)

0.6 SPG (Regular season career average is 0.6 SPG)

TS% 57.4% (Regular season career average is 58.6%)

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Jordan averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games



Game sevens

33.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

FG% 45.7% (Regular season career average is 49.7%)



Elimination games

5 7 W-L record

31.0 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.9 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.8 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

TS% 53.8% (Regular season career average is 56.9%)

[SouBeachTalents]

The amazing aspect of Kobe's elimination games were they combined his god awful individual performance with his team getting their asses kicked on numerous occasions

2003: 20/2/6 on 9/19 50%TS with 7 turnovers in a 28 point loss at home
2004: 24/3/4 on 7/21 46%TS in a 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
2006: 24/4/1 on 8/16 66%TS in a 31 point loss, infamously quit in the 2nd half
2007: 34/4/1 on 13/33 47%TS with 6 turnovers in a 9 point loss
2008: 22/3/1 on 7/22 46%TS with 4 turnovers in a 39 point loss
2011: 17/3/1 on 7/18 43%TS with 5 turnovers in a 36 point loss
2012: 42/5/0 on 18/33 58%TS in a 16 point loss

Average: 26/3/2 on 23 shots 51%TS 4 turnovers with an average defeat of 25 ppg

Tbf Kobe actually did play well when facing elimination during the 3peat, but his mediocre performances continued even in victory (6/24) during this timeframe

[Jasper]

Great.

Now do the Game 7 and elimination games stats of others of Kobe Bryant's ilk like West, Chamberlain, Russell, Johnson, Bird, Olajuwon, Jordan, Duncan, O'Neal - at least the retired ones
:oldlol:

lov your avatar pic !!!

[8Ball]

Kobe was 9-10 while facing elimination.

LeBron James in elimination games: 33.7 points, 7.5 assists, 10.8 rebounds, 49.1 FG%

14-10 record

lock it up boys.

33/7.5/11 on 48fg% vs 22/3.5/6 on 40fg%


LeBron doubled Kobe's production on passing and rebounds, and 50% more scoring.


Yikes.

[8Ball]

Here are Tim Duncans averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games

7 13 W-L record


22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 19.0 ppg)

11.6 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.8 rpg)

2.8 APG (Regular season career average is 3.0 APG)

1.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

FG% 48.2% Regular season career average is 50.6%)




Game sevens

4 2 W-L record

24.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 19.0 ppg)

11.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.8 rpg)

2.7 APG (Regular season career average is 3.0 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

FG% 48.2% Regular season career average is 50.6%)

So Duncan is quite pedestrian when it comes to elimination games as a whole.


This is why I don't have him in the top 4.

[8Ball]

Here are Jordan averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games



Game sevens

33.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

FG% 45.7% (Regular season career average is 49.7%)



Elimination games

5 7 W-L record

31.0 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.9 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.8 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

TS% 53.8% (Regular season career average is 56.9%)

Can you put this side by side vs LeBron?

Would like to see 1a vs 1b.

[hold this L]

So Duncan is quite pedestrian when it comes to elimination games as a whole.


This is why I don't have him in the top 4.

How is he pedestrian? Guy offers ATG level defense on top of his points and rebounds. :facepalm

[Bronbron23]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

Not sure if there's an agenda to this but i'll say 2 things about kobe and his playoff stats. For one he played alot of his playoffs in one of the toughest defensive era's ever. Throw most of these guys in kobe's era and there points and efficiency drop. The other thing is kobe demanded alot of attention on the defensive end. He missed alot because Defenses were so focused on him. This allowed others to be open and have less attention than they would otherwise if they were on another team with a superstar that draws less attention. Players like mj, kobe and steph can have bad games but still heavily influence a game offensively just by the amount of attention they draw from the defense.

[SaintzFury13]

Not sure if there's an agenda to this but i'll say 2 things about kobe and his playoff stats. For one he played alot of his playoffs in one of the toughest defensive era's ever. Throw most of these guys in kobe's era and there points and efficiency drop. The other thing is kobe demanded alot of attention on the defensive end. He missed alot because Defenses were so focused on him. This allowed others to be open and have less attention than they would otherwise if they were on another team with a superstar that draws less attention. Players like mj, kobe and steph can have bad games but still heavily influence a game offensively just by the amount of attention they draw from the defense.

I would say this part is 50/50 at best. Yes, he did demand a lot of attention and thus, had plenty of moments where he was defended extremely well, but there were just as many instances where he could have easily deferred the other way to find a teammate with a better shot opportunity when it was clear the shot wasn't there for him. But he still chose to take it, even when logic dictated that he shouldn't. That's on him. A lot of it came down to his mentality making him think it had to be him and nobody else. This would more often than not cost his team crucial possessions that they couldn't afford to lose.

[Rysio]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.



Game 7s kobe took 20 shots or more only in 2/6 games

Elimination games kobe took less than 20 shots 11/19 games

When kobe took less than 20 shots more than 60% of the time its clear kobe had different strategy than to beat teams with his 30 ppg or so.

[coastalmarker99]

Can you put this side by side vs LeBron?

Would like to see 1a vs 1b.

Here are Lebron's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games

15 10 W-L record


33.48 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

10.76 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

7.4 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.6 STL (Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

FG% 48.8% Regular season career average is 50.4%)




Game sevens

6 2 W-L record

34.87 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

9.87 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

0.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.7 STL(Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

3.6 TOV Regular season career average is 3.5 TOV)

FG% 48.7% Regular season career average is 50.4%)

[3ba11]

Shame on you OP.. You've successfully made Kobe look bad by distorting the truth with cherry-picked stats

Lebron faced elimination against garbage teams that he was favored against.. For example, Kobe would never face elimination in the 2018 Eastern Playoffs - this is a testament to Kobe's brand of ball that yielded superior teams with less supporting talent - he simply wouldn't be struggling with those kinds of teams..

And that's why Kobe was better - he played a superior way, which yielded better teams - specifically, he wasn't just a ball-dominator that reduced teammates to spot-up roles - his scoring was partially-assisted, which elevated teammate role and allowed a superior brand of basketball (ball movement).. Kobe's ability to have assisted buckets as a perimeter ballhandler was due to his elite jumpshooting skill.. Otoh, Lebron isn't on this level of skill, so he's restricted to ball-dominance, which needs more help and yields inferior teams (4/10)

The game is deeper than just the stats folks.. the game isn't played on the stat sheet..

[coastalmarker99]

Shame on you OP.. You've successfully made Kobe look bad by distorting the truth with cherry-picked stats

Lebron faced elimination against garbage teams that he was favored against.. For example, Kobe would never face elimination in the 2018 Eastern Playoffs - this is a testament to Kobe's brand of ball that yielded superior teams with less supporting talent - he simply wouldn't be struggling with those kinds of teams..

And that's why Kobe was better - he played a superior way, which yielded better teams - specifically, he wasn't just a ball-dominator that reduced teammates to spot-up roles - his scoring was partially-assisted, which elevated teammate role and allowed a superior brand of basketball (ball movement).. Kobe's ability to have assisted buckets as a perimeter ballhandler was due to his elite jumpshooting skill.. Otoh, Lebron isn't on this level of skill, so he's restricted to ball-dominance, which needs more help and yields inferior teams (4/10)

The game is deeper than just the stats folks.. the game isn't played on the stat sheet..


Pau fell all the way from 17 PPG to 13ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.

Artest went from 17ppg to just 11ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.


Lebron's way has yielded

10 final appearances

4 titles

3 60 win seasons.

11 50 win seasons

The most playoff wins ever.







Kobe's way yielded

3 final appearances

2 titles

1 60 win season

4 50 win seasons.

[3ba11]

Pau fell all the way from 17 PPG to 13ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.

Artest went from 17ppg to just 11ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.


Kobe didn't play a superior way compared to Lebron.


Lebron would have won 4 to 5 titles with Shaq instead of three as he wouldn't have chased him off.


Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).

[coastalmarker99]

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).





Bosh would have dropped 19-20 PPG as the 2nd option with Lebron but he was the 3rd option, not 2nd.


And it is a complete lie that Bosh was stuck in the corner on those Heat squads. Only 5% of Bosh's FGA from 2010 to 2014 were corner threes, he ended up shooting about as many corner threes as Bron did.


How would he even be able to be in the corner when Ray Allen was in the corner on one side and Battier or Miller were stationed on the other side more often than not? Even Chalmers shot twice as many corner threes as Bosh.

More proof that you go with narratives more than actually watching the games.

[coastalmarker99]

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).

Lebron could have won titles with his 2009 and 2010 Cavs teams if Greg Foster and Adam Keefe were starting against him and a washed Stockton averaging 10ppg was the other team's #2.


An example of how bad Karl Malone supporting cast was in the 1998 finals was that only one player besides Malone averaged over 10 points a game and that was jeff hornacek who averaged 10 points a game on 40 percent shooting.

Byron Russell at 6-21 led the team in threes for the 1998 Finals. John Stockton was 2-9 from three for the entire 1998 Finals.

Combined. Jeff Hornacek was 3-9 from three for the entire 1998 Finals.

Howard Eisley went 1-7 for the whole Finals. Chris Morris went 0-9.

The entire Jazz team was 13-60 combined. For the entire series. They shot 21.7% from three. Steve Kerr shot better from three than anyone on the Jazz in the 1998 Finals,



And It wasn't like the Bulls were the prime Bulls. Chicago had 3 guys over 35 in their top-7 and Pippen had missed half that season with an injury and wasn't close to his peak).



Playing against the strong but aging defensive group of MJ/Scottie/Rodman (36 years old) surrounded by not so great players (Longley, Kukoc, Kerr) and a washed 35yo Harper Utah supporting cast besides Malone managed the following numbers in the finals.

Stockton: 9-2-8 on 49% shooting, only hit 2 threes all series


Hornacek: 11-3-3 on 41% shooting, only hit 3 threes all series

Russell (added to the starting lineup to guard Jordan): 9-5-0 on 41% shooting

Malone: 25-10-5 on 50% shooting

Keefe: 3-3-0 on 43% shooting

Foster: 1-2-0 on 27% shooting

Ostertag: 2-2-0 on 42% shooting

[coastalmarker99]

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).


The 1990's Bulls were like if Lebron and Kawhi played their entire careers together while the majority of the league were led by Bradley Beal caliber players.


The 1-3 was straight ass in the 1990s. Contrast that with now. There were 3 truly elite point guards even close to their primes when MJ played, 2 elite SGs, and...1 elite SF...that was on his team


There's 7-8 elite PGs now with 2 of them being all-time greats at the position, 4 elite SGs, and like 5 elite SFs, with 3 all-time greats at the position playing currently, one of whom is a GOAT candidate, and another is a top-15 player OAT.

It's a massive gap in terms of talent and production at the 1-3 between the 1990's and nowadays.


Cartwright and Ron Harper were 20+ point scorers before they joined the Bulls.

Toni Kokoc is a Hall of Famer.

Dennis Rodman had a ring and is a HOF.




The 1990's Bulls always had the best coach in the league and great depth around Jordan.




They just had a Michael Jordan sized hole at SG in 1994 and yet they still won 55 games and went to 7 games with the eventual eastern conference champion Replace Jordan with an all-star SG/wing such as Miller and the Bulls are winning a chip.



The drop in production from Jordan to Myers can't be overstated.

[eliteballer]

Why won’t op admit Lebron is a juicer?

[Bronbron23]

I would say this part is 50/50 at best. Yes, he did demand a lot of attention and thus, had plenty of moments where he was defended extremely well, but there were just as many instances where he could have easily deferred the other way to find a teammate with a better shot opportunity when it was clear the shot wasn't there for him. But he still chose to take it, even when logic dictated that he shouldn't. That's on him. A lot of it came down to his mentality making him think it had to be him and nobody else. This would more often than not cost his team crucial possessions that they couldn't afford to lose.

Yeah that's fair. Kobe could take some pretty bad shots

[Bronbron23]

Why won’t op admit Lebron is a juicer?

Because there's no proof bron is juicing. His body is easily attainable naturally. The only sign of steroids is hair loss but that could be genetic.

[8Ball]

Here are Lebron's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games

15 10 W-L record


33.48 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

10.76 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

7.4 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.6 STL (Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

FG% 48.8% Regular season career average is 50.4%)




Game sevens

6 2 W-L record

34.87 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

9.87 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

0.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.7 STL(Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

3.6 TOV Regular season career average is 3.5 TOV)

FG% 48.7% Regular season career average is 50.4%)



Here are Jordan averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games



Game sevens

33.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

FG% 45.7% (Regular season career average is 49.7%)



Elimination games

5 7 W-L record

31.0 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.9 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.8 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

TS% 53.8% (Regular season career average is 56.9%)



Looks like LeBron is a better elimination game performer and game 7 performer.

[Bronbron23]

I wonder how many of brons are during the 2000's and the 2010's? 2000's was a tougher defensive era so it be interesting to compare. I'd be willing to bet that his 2000's numbers are significantly worse than his numbers for the more recent elimination games. It's not fair to use numbers from guys like kobe or mj who played in a way tougher defensive to players who played in this era.

[Lebron23]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

hmmmmmmmmmm

[Lebron23]

The amazing aspect of Kobe's elimination games were they combined his god awful individual performance with his team getting their asses kicked on numerous occasions

2003: 20/2/6 on 9/19 50%TS with 7 turnovers in a 28 point loss at home
2004: 24/3/4 on 7/21 46%TS in a 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
2006: 24/4/1 on 8/16 66%TS in a 31 point loss, infamously quit in the 2nd half
2007: 34/4/1 on 13/33 47%TS with 6 turnovers in a 9 point loss
2008: 22/3/1 on 7/22 46%TS with 4 turnovers in a 39 point loss
2011: 17/3/1 on 7/18 43%TS with 5 turnovers in a 36 point loss
2012: 42/5/0 on 18/33 58%TS in a 16 point loss

Average: 26/3/2 on 23 shots 51%TS 4 turnovers with an average defeat of 25 ppg

Tbf Kobe actually did play well when facing elimination during the 3peat, but his mediocre performances continued even in victory (6/24) during this timeframe

Just a terrible finals and playoffs performer.

[1987_Lakers]

The amazing aspect of Kobe's elimination games were they combined his god awful individual performance with his team getting their asses kicked on numerous occasions

2003: 20/2/6 on 9/19 50%TS with 7 turnovers in a 28 point loss at home
2004: 24/3/4 on 7/21 46%TS in a 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
2006: 24/4/1 on 8/16 66%TS in a 31 point loss, infamously quit in the 2nd half
2007: 34/4/1 on 13/33 47%TS with 6 turnovers in a 9 point loss
2008: 22/3/1 on 7/22 46%TS with 4 turnovers in a 39 point loss
2011: 17/3/1 on 7/18 43%TS with 5 turnovers in a 36 point loss
2012: 42/5/0 on 18/33 58%TS in a 16 point loss

Average: 26/3/2 on 23 shots 51%TS 4 turnovers with an average defeat of 25 ppg

Tbf Kobe actually did play well when facing elimination during the 3peat, but his mediocre performances continued even in victory (6/24) during this timeframe

How is this possible?

[Iverson3]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games. Chokebe Bryant