How underrated is Magic Johnson?

[Jay-B]

Feel like he gets somewhat forgotten with all the Jordan Kobe Lebron talk. The dude freakin went back to back won the NCAA championship one year and the NBA championship next year as a rookie winning game 6 finals clincher with jabbar out with 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals. Also was finals MVP that year all as a 20 year old, that’s some story book movie type shit there. Another thing is that he only really played in 12 meaningful seasons, 5 time champion and 9 times in the finals, he spent his whole career in the finals pretty much. Of course there’s the Kareem and Worthy talk but Kareem somewhat was only a shell of his old self in the mid late 80’s. Magic was the best player on all those Lakers championship teams and the fact that he had to retire at the age of 32 I’d say he should be top 3.

[Smoke117]

He's in the top 5-7...he's not overrated. If anything he might be overrated by nostalgia. If you are going on this board full of cat litter eating retards of course you think hes underrated as they just obsess about Jordan, kobe, and lebron. If anything I think he's overrated as he's mostly put over Bird who to me was a clearly superior player.

[jamesmax1991]

Well I wouldnt say he is underrated, he gets a lot of his flowers around the league and alot of coverage. I didnt grow up watching Magic and he is already idolized over all Media platforms. I would take LBJ over him anyday though :)

[RRR3]

He's in the top 5-7...he's not overrated. If anything he might be overrated by nostalgia. If you are going on this board full of cat litter eating retards of course you think hes underrated as they just obsess about Jordan, kobe, and lebron. If anything I think he's overrated as he's mostly put over Bird who to me was a clearly superior player.
Magic was quite a bit better than Bird in the playoffs.

[Rick Bottom]

....what is this thread? Is this irony or some sort of inside joke...? Anyone want to explain?

[Magic Is Magic]

Underrated by some and then overrated by some, depending on your ranking of course Magic sits comfortably anywhere between 3 and 8. I find it hard to keep him out of the top 10 and also find myself wanting to push him into the top 5 but it's a tough decision.

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll: SO underrated bro

[Mask the Embiid]

If there was an all time starting 5 for basketball ever….he would be starting on the team at point guard and run the offense for the most part for the majority of the game…..How can anyone ever call him underrated? He is a living legend. I can’t think of many things I’d rather be called than a living legend. That is the ultimate compliment

He was the best player in the league at one point with a prime mj and prime bird in the same league….he is nowhere close to underrated to ppl who know their history


He retired almost 30 years ago and still no one has passed him at his position even with the game evolving….no one else can say that at any other position

[1987_Lakers]

If there was an all time starting 5 for basketball ever….he would be starting on the team at point guard and run the offense for the most part for the majority of the game

I disagree, peak Magic is probably the greatest PG ever, but putting him in an all-time lineup with guys like MJ & LeBron who demand the ball alot would take alot of Magic's value away, he needs to run the offense at all times in order to maximize his ability. It's one of the reasons why you see natural point guards in the Olympics kind of become after thoughts on the team. I'd much rather have someone like a peak Curry playing with those guys.

[tpols]

Magic is underrated because of his intangible effect. His ability to make others better was unrivaled. Even after Kareem retired he still led contending teams. And Kareem was a loser in LA before Magic. I do think (know) he sold his soul to the Hollywood crowd while introvert Kareem would never do that. That's why he caught the bug ~ homosexual blackmail and persuasion. And then look what they did to his son.

[Stephonit]

Magic was quite a bit better than Bird in the playoffs.

Played in the weaker Western Conference of that time.

[RRR3]

Played in the weaker Western Conference of that time.
He beat Bird head to head.

[Stephonit]

He beat Bird head to head.

After Bird had to go through a gauntlet while Magic strolled through the playoffs to get to the finals.

[RRR3]

After Bird had to go through a gauntlet while Magic strolled through the playoffs to get to the finals.
Someone’s mad Magic is the consensus GOAT PG

[Stephonit]

Someone’s mad Magic is the consensus GOAT PG

People who cite consensus aren't thinking for themselves.

[Hey Yo]

Feel like he gets somewhat forgotten with all the Jordan Kobe Lebron talk. The dude freakin went back to back won the NCAA championship one year and the NBA championship next year as a rookie winning game 6 finals clincher with jabbar out with 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals. Also was finals MVP that year all as a 20 year old, that’s some story book movie type shit there. Another thing is that he only really played in 12 meaningful seasons, 5 time champion and 9 times in the finals, he spent his whole career in the finals pretty much. Of course there’s the Kareem and Worthy talk but Kareem somewhat was only a shell of his old self in the mid late 80’s. Magic was the best player on all those Lakers championship teams and the fact that he had to retire at the age of 32 I’d say he should be top 3.

Magic was not LA's best player when they won in 1980. Kareem was clearly the supreme player on both sides of the ball. Yes Magic put up big numbers in that game but so did his teammate Wilkes who had 37-10.

If anything, Magic is overrated. Couldn't shoot and played below avg defense. He could definitely run an offense and was one the best doing so, but it pretty much stops there. Put him on that Bulls team who lost the coin flip for his first 7yrs and see how many titles he wins.

[RRR3]

People who cite consensus aren't thinking for themselves.
People who think Curry’s the GOAT aren’t thinking at all.

[mr4speed]

He beat Bird head to head.

Bird was the FMVP in 84 Kareem was the FMVP in 85 and Magic was the FMVP in 87. Kareem outplayed Parrish in all 3 of the Finals. Bird never played as bad in the clutch as Magic did in several games of the 84 Finals. Magic had better teams and an easier path to the Finals. Given Magic's not so great defense, he often gets overrated IMO.

[SaintzFury13]

Magic was blessed with having one of the greatest players of all time on his team as soon as he came to the NBA, and had guys like Worthy, Cooper, Scott and Divac join in on the fun through out his time with the Lakers. His accolades are very impressive, especially when you consider how young he was when he was forced to retire, but he always had the team necessary to get the job done, even during his rookie year.

He’s probably the greatest playmaker in the history of the NBA. And he was a very skilled and crafty player which allowed him to be a very good scorer too. But compare him to guys like Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, etc. on the defensive end of the floor and a very clear difference is there. There was never a time in his career where he wasn’t a liability at that end of the floor. If you were a quick PG with decent handles, Magic was going to have trouble guarding you. I can agree with Magic being in the 5-7 range, but top 3? At that point, that spot goes to Jordan, LeBron and Kareem.

[Xiao Yao You]

Magic was blessed with having one of the greatest players of all time on his team as soon as he came to the NBA, and had guys like Worthy, Cooper, Scott and Divac join in on the fun through out his time with the Lakers. His accolades are very impressive, especially when you consider how young he was when he was forced to retire, but he always had the team necessary to get the job done, even during his rookie year.

He’s probably the greatest playmaker in the history of the NBA. And he was a very skilled and crafty player which allowed him to be a very good scorer too. But compare him to guys like Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, etc. on the defensive end of the floor and a very clear difference is there. There was never a time in his career where he wasn’t a liability at that end of the floor. If you were a quick PG with decent handles, Magic was going to have trouble guarding you. I can agree with Magic being in the 5-7 range, but top 3? At that point, that spot goes to Jordan, LeBron and Kareem.

Magic didn't usually guard pg. It helps if you actually watch guys instead of assume things

[Stephonit]

People who think Curry’s the GOAT aren’t thinking at all.

The unique achievements and statistical numbers bring that idea to the fore without much thought.

[SaintzFury13]

Magic didn't usually guard pg. It helps if you actually watch guys instead of assume things

When did I ever say he usually guarded PGs? Don’t be a retard.

[Xiao Yao You]

When did I ever say he usually guarded PGs? Don’t be a retard.

than why post this?

If you were a quick PG with decent handles, Magic was going to have trouble guarding you.

[steezy]

Overrated from 80s nostalgia. Wasn't a great scorer, and wasn't a great on ball defender. MJ Lebron Kobe were averaging more PPG in their 3rd season than Magics career high. But great playmaker who racked up assists and rebounds and has a ton of hardware. Great legacy tho. Just not on the same level individually as MJ Lebron Kobe.

[SaintzFury13]

than why post this?

If you were a quick PG with decent handles, Magic was going to have trouble guarding you.

...to give people an idea of how easy it was to score on him. Where in that statement do even HINT that he spent most of his career guarding PGs?

[Xiao Yao You]

...to give people an idea of how easy it was to score on him. Where in that statement do even HINT that he spent most of his career guarding PGs?

He wasn't easy to score on if he wasn't guarding those quick pgs

[Xiao Yao You]

Overrated from 80s nostalgia. Wasn't a great scorer, and wasn't a great on ball defender. MJ Lebron Kobe were averaging more PPG in their 3rd season than Magics career high. But great playmaker who racked up assists and rebounds and has a ton of hardware. Great legacy tho. Just not on the same level individually as MJ Lebron Kobe.

could score at will when he needed to. Was a pass first pg when most that played the position were. Had many weapons and didn't usually need to score. Better than Kobe anyday!

[SaintzFury13]

He wasn't easy to score on if he wasn't guarding those quick pgs

https://media0.giphy.com/media/11Wkoq2MaUbLXi/giphy.gif?cid=790b761187a5d5324b572ba022b3d1266a8f 2ffadd5da3eb&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

I just can't with some of the people on this forum. Why are these so many dumb posters? I don't get it.

[Xiao Yao You]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/11Wkoq2MaUbLXi/giphy.gif?cid=790b761187a5d5324b572ba022b3d1266a8f 2ffadd5da3eb&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

I just can't with some of the people on this forum. Why are these so many dumb posters? I don't get it.

I'm not the one making points that are meaningless :facepalm

[SaintzFury13]

I'm not the one making points that are meaningless :facepalm

It's to demonstrate just how weak of a defender Magic was. He had trouble guarding people who were quick on their feet and if they weren't, they were able to make up for it by having decent handles.

Hence, if you were a PG who was quick on their feet and had decent handles, you could routinely score on Magic without much trouble. That's pretty bad for an all time great, especially in an era where you needed a hell of a lot more than that to be worth anything in the NBA.

You not being smart enough to understand that doesn't make the point meaningless. It just means you're an idiot. Now quit wasting my time.

[steezy]

could score at will when he needed to. Was a pass first pg when most that played the position were. Had many weapons and didn't usually need to score. Better than Kobe anyday!

A pass first PG will never be better than a 3-level scorer who can play lockdown defense. Didn't have the post moves, footwork or shooting ability that either 3 have. Shot 20% from 3 in his prime but yeah "score at will" nice one.

[Xiao Yao You]

It's to demonstrate just how weak of a defender Magic was. He had trouble guarding people who were quick on their feet and if they weren't, they were able to make up for it by having decent handles.

Hence, if you were a PG who was quick on their feet and had decent handles, you could routinely score on Magic without much trouble. That's pretty bad for an all time great, especially in an era where you needed a hell of a lot more than that to be worth anything in the NBA.

You not being smart enough to understand that doesn't make the point meaningless. It just means you're an idiot. Now quit wasting my time.

but what does that matter if Scott or Cooper are guarding said quick pg?

[Xiao Yao You]

A pass first PG will never be better than a 3-level scorer who can play lockdown defense. Didn't have the post moves, footwork or shooting ability that either 3 have. Shot 20% from 3 in his prime but yeah "score at will" nice one.

not shooting the 3 didn't matter at that time. He was a decent shooter by the end of his career. Had a post game. When the Lakers needed a big bucket he got them. He carried teams. Something Kobe found out he couldn't do. Lebron had to team up or have pandemic to get his rings

[SaintzFury13]

not shooting the 3 didn't matter at that time. He was a decent shooter by the end of his career. Had a post game. When the Lakers needed a big bucket he got them. He carried teams. Something Kobe found out he couldn't do. Lebron had to team up or have pandemic to get his rings

Give us one instance of Magic carrying a team to a finals victory.

[Xiao Yao You]

Give us one instance of Magic carrying a team to a finals victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGy8sWHltw :facepalm

[SaintzFury13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGy8sWHltw :facepalm

AN ENTIRE SERIES, YOU IDIOT. If we're going by one series clinching game I can literally give you two instances of LeBron doing it, someone you just shit talked and claimed couldn't win without teaming up.

[FKAri]

He's kinda overrated imo and has been for a while. Bird is underrated. It has a lot to do with how their careers ended. Bird broke down and hobbled his way out of the league while Magic was forced to retire while he was still amazing.

[Xiao Yao You]

When didn't he carry them?

[SaintzFury13]

When didn't he carry them?

Literally every single time.

1980: Magic absolutely deserves credit for the incredible series closing performance in game 6, but he wasn't by any means the best player on the Lakers in this series. That honor goes to Kareem, who averaged 33 PPG, 13.6 RPG, and 4.6 BPG. Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. Magic had another teammate that series, Wilkes, who averaged 20 PPG.

1982: Magic had FOUR TEAMMATES who had higher scoring averages than him. This one isn't arguable.

1985: Magic was the third leading scorer in this series, and wasn't even Finals MVP. Again, this one isn't arguable.

1987: This is probably the closest Magic ever came to having a legitimate series wide carry job, but I once again question whether or not this can count. Both Kareem and Worthy averaged 20 PPG, but at the same time, Magic averaged 13 APG on top of averaging 26 PPG and 8 RPG. One of the greatest finals series performances of all time? Yes. A legitimate carry job? That's a very tough case to make based on the help and support he had in this series.

1988: And of course, we have another series where Magic wasn't even the Finals MVP. That went to James Worthy, who had one of the greatest series clinching performances of all time. I actually do still question the logic behind giving Worthy the award, since I personally think Magic was the more valuable player throughout this series. But the fact that the argument even exists says it all: this wasn't a carry job by any stretch of the imagination.

[steezy]

Literally every single time.

1980: Magic absolutely deserves credit for the incredible series closing performance in game 6, but he wasn't by any means the best player on the Lakers in this series. That honor goes to Kareem, who averaged 33 PPG, 13.6 RPG, and 4.6 BPG. Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. Magic had another teammate that series, Wilkes, who averaged 20 PPG.

1982: Magic had FOUR TEAMMATES who had higher scoring averages than him. This one isn't arguable.

1985: Magic was the third leading scorer in this series, and wasn't even Finals MVP. Again, this one isn't arguable.

1987: This is probably the closest Magic ever came to having a legitimate series wide carry job, but I once again question whether or not this can count. Both Kareem and Worthy averaged 20 PPG, but at the same time, Magic averaged 13 APG on top of averaging 26 PPG and 8 RPG. One of the greatest finals series performances of all time? Yes. A legitimate carry job? That's a very tough case to make based on the help and support he had in this series.

1988: And of course, we have another series where Magic wasn't even the Finals MVP. That went to James Worthy, who had one of the greatest series clinching performances of all time. I actually do still question the logic behind giving Worthy the award, since I personally think Magic was the more valuable player throughout this series. But the fact that the argument even exists says it all: this wasn't a carry job by any stretch of the imagination.

Jesus christ I never knew he was carried this hard

[Xiao Yao You]

Literally every single time.

1980: Magic absolutely deserves credit for the incredible series closing performance in game 6, but he wasn't by any means the best player on the Lakers in this series. That honor goes to Kareem, who averaged 33 PPG, 13.6 RPG, and 4.6 BPG. Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. Magic had another teammate that series, Wilkes, who averaged 20 PPG.

1982: Magic had FOUR TEAMMATES who had higher scoring averages than him. This one isn't arguable.

1985: Magic was the third leading scorer in this series, and wasn't even Finals MVP. Again, this one isn't arguable.

1987: This is probably the closest Magic ever came to having a legitimate series wide carry job, but I once again question whether or not this can count. Both Kareem and Worthy averaged 20 PPG, but at the same time, Magic averaged 13 APG on top of averaging 26 PPG and 8 RPG. One of the greatest finals series performances of all time? Yes. A legitimate carry job? That's a very tough case to make based on the help and support he had in this series.

1988: And of course, we have another series where Magic wasn't even the Finals MVP. That went to James Worthy, who had one of the greatest series clinching performances of all time. I actually do still question the logic behind giving Worthy the award, since I personally think Magic was the more valuable player throughout this series. But the fact that the argument even exists says it all: this wasn't a carry job by any stretch of the imagination.

wonder who was feeding those guys the easy baskets that were scoring more than him? Kareem couldn't carry the Lakers anywhere. Showtime was Magic. Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Riley etc. were just lucky to be along for the ride

[SaintzFury13]

Jesus christ I never knew he was carried this hard

Most all time greats who have multiple championships under their resume had a lot of support. Michael Jordan is one of the lone exceptions because although he had arguably the greatest sidekick in the history of the NBA in Scottie Pippen, there wasn't much else that was noteworthy outside of Horace Grant in that first three peat, who was great but not on the level of someone like James Worthy in this example. Jordan did have more help in that second three peat with guys like Rodman, Harper, and Kukoc, but it still doesn't compare as well with some of the others I'm about to list.

Larry Bird: He wasn't even the finals MVP in his first Championship win or the leading scorer. Cedric Maxell was. You can still argue he was the best player in that series but again, the fact that it has to be argued says it all. And he had a ridiculously stacked supporting cast in 1984, and wasn't even the leading scorer in the 86 Finals despite winning the finals MVP award (which he deserved, but it's still worth mentioning).

Bill Russell: Had god knows how many hall of famers on many of his teams for his 11 title wins.

Shaq: Had Kobe in those first three championships with LA even though it was pretty much all Shaq in that first one. And was carried in the 06 title win.

Duncan: Had David Robinson in the first couple, even though he didn't help all that much in the first one, he still needed him just to get there in the first place. Same with 03. And in both instances, they faced pretty weak finals opponents. 2005 was the first legitimately tough Finals matchup Duncan had when he had to go up against the defending champion Detroit Pistons. He had a (and this is well documented) pretty miserable series due to Detroit's fierce front court giving him fits all series long. He had some good games but overall the true MVP of the series was Manu Ginobli, who averaged 18 PPG while shooting a ridiculous 49% from the field. Those aren't eye popping numbers compared to what we see nowadays, but against the Larry Brown Pistons? For comparisons sake, Duncan averaged 20 PPG on 41% shooting. Duncan's next championship was against a 22 year old LeBron James and a 50 win Cavaliers team that many consider to be one of the worst teams to ever make it to the NBA Finals, and he didn't even win the Finals MVP award in that one (that went to Parker). And we all know what happened with the 2014 title win.

LeBron: Apart from Jordan, LeBron is the only one here who has won Finals MVP in all of his championship wins. And all of them were clear as day. The closest you can argue is the 2020 win where you can MAYBE argue that Anthony Davis deserved it. But you'd have a tough time arguing that. But even then? 2012, he had Wade averaging 22 PPG and Mike Miller went off in game 5. In 2013 he didn't really have major scoring support from any one player, but Wade still almost averaged 20 on very good efficiency, but otherwise, not a whole lot from the rest of the team despite some key moments (including Allen's three pointer) and then of course Battier went off in game 7. In 2016 LeBron had Irving averaging 27 PPG. And then of course there's 2020 with Davis.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who has multiple championships and finals MVP awards had multiple people helping in major ways. For some reason, people don't understand just how much help Magic had with his championship teams. It's not an uncommon occurrence. It happens almost all the time.

[SaintzFury13]

wonder who was feeding those guys the easy baskets that were scoring more than him? Kareem couldn't carry the Lakers anywhere. Showtime was Magic. Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Riley etc. were just lucky to be along for the ride

Okay? That still doesn't mean Magic carried them in all of those finals wins. That's simply not what happened. He was the best player in most of them, but let's not sit here and pretend he could have beaten the Celtics in 1985 without Kareem or Worthy.

[Stephonit]

Most all time greats who have multiple championships under their resume had a lot of support. Michael Jordan is one of the lone exceptions because although he had arguably the greatest sidekick in the history of the NBA in Scottie Pippen, there wasn't much else that was noteworthy outside of Horace Grant in that first three peat, who was great but not on the level of someone like James Worthy in this example. Jordan did have more help in that second three peat with guys like Rodman, Harper, and Kukoc, but it still doesn't compare as well with some of the others I'm about to list.

Larry Bird: He wasn't even the finals MVP in his first Championship win or the leading scorer. Cedric Maxell was. You can still argue he was the best player in that series but again, the fact that it has to be argued says it all. And he had a ridiculously stacked supporting cast in 1984, and wasn't even the leading scorer in the 86 Finals despite winning the finals MVP award (which he deserved, but it's still worth mentioning).

Bill Russell: Had god knows how many hall of famers on many of his teams for his 11 title wins.

Shaq: Had Kobe in those first three championships with LA even though it was pretty much all Shaq in that first one. And was carried in the 06 title win.

Duncan: Had David Robinson in the first couple, even though he didn't help all that much in the first one, he still needed him just to get there in the first place. Same with 03. And in both instances, they faced pretty weak finals opponents. 2005 was the first legitimately tough Finals matchup Duncan had when he had to go up against the defending champion Detroit Pistons. He had a (and this is well documented) pretty miserable series due to Detroit's fierce front court giving him fits all series long. He had some good games but overall the true MVP of the series was Manu Ginobli, who averaged 18 PPG while shooting a ridiculous 49% from the field. Those aren't eye popping numbers compared to what we see nowadays, but against the Larry Brown Pistons? For comparisons sake, Duncan averaged 20 PPG on 41% shooting. Duncan's next championship was against a 22 year old LeBron James and a 50 win Cavaliers team that many consider to be one of the worst teams to ever make it to the NBA Finals, and he didn't even win the Finals MVP award in that one (that went to Parker). And we all know what happened with the 2014 title win.

LeBron: Apart from Jordan, LeBron is the only one here who has won Finals MVP in all of his championship wins. And all of them were clear as day. The closest you can argue is the 2020 win where you can MAYBE argue that Anthony Davis deserved it. But you'd have a tough time arguing that. But even then? 2012, he had Wade averaging 22 PPG and Mike Miller went off in game 5. In 2013 he didn't really have major scoring support from any one player, but Wade still almost averaged 20 on very good efficiency, but otherwise, not a whole lot from the rest of the team despite some key moments (including Allen's three pointer) and then of course Battier went off in game 7. In 2016 LeBron had Irving averaging 27 PPG. And then of course there's 2020 with Davis.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who has multiple championships and finals MVP awards had multiple people helping in major ways. For some reason, people don't understand just how much help Magic had with his championship teams. It's not an uncommon occurrence. It happens almost all the time.

Magic is overrated but the above post shows how the ability to maximize a team's play is underrated.

Basketball is a team game. The ability to raise a team's performance is critical at the highest levels. One more reason Finals MVPs are a joke because they do not recognize, marginalize, diminish, and undervalue said ability.

[1987_Lakers]

wonder who was feeding those guys the easy baskets that were scoring more than him? Kareem couldn't carry the Lakers anywhere. Showtime was Magic. Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Riley etc. were just lucky to be along for the ride

To be fair, most of Kareem's points were created by himself. He didn't need anyone to spoon feed him.

[Xiao Yao You]

Okay? That still doesn't mean Magic carried them in all of those finals wins. That's simply not what happened. He was the best player in most of them, but let's not sit here and pretend he could have beaten the Celtics in 1985 without Kareem or Worthy.

If not Kareem and Worth than someone else. I certainly never felt that Worthy would have been anything special without Magic. Magic made those around him better like the greats do

[1987_Lakers]

If not Kareem and Worth than someone else. I certainly never felt that Worthy would have been anything special without Magic. Magic made those around him better like the greats do

Worthy's efficiency would no doubt take a hit if he didn't have Magic throughout his career, but keep in mind we are talking about a former #1 pick and a player who led North Carolina to a championship in college.

Worthy in his prime was never considered a superstar even with Magic, and without him he still dropped 40 points vs the bad boy pistons in game 4 of the '89 Finals. Did Magic make Worthy better? Yes, but I have no doubt in my mind Worthy would still have been an all-star type player without him.

[Pointguard]

Literally every single time.

1982: Magic had FOUR TEAMMATES who had higher scoring averages than him. This one isn't arguable.

LOL, this is exactly why he was the best player! Nobody scored 20 ppg. 4 players between 20 and 16ppg. It was the best scoring balancing act ever. Five key players averaged over .510 FG percentage. During the year the whole team shot over .517 from the feild. Magic was far and beyond casual fan comprehension.

1985: Magic was the third leading scorer in this series, and wasn't even Finals MVP. Again, this one isn't arguable.
Believe it or not this team shot 545 percent from the field during the RS. It was the most efficient team ever by a mile. It shot 512 percent in the finals against a great defensive team. This was Magic's greatest championship series to this point. His assist and control of the game was insane. This was the MVP Kareem should have gotten in 1980. Magic should have won this one. Kareem wasn't a player that carried teams. He did it once before Magic on 9 tries. His teams were rarely contenders. Once they added Magic, they were contenders every year. They were a more hungry team, a smarter team, a more versatile team and more of a team once Magic arrived. They had the same team before Magic arrived and they were at best OK.


1987: This is probably the closest Magic ever came to having a legitimate series wide carry job, but I once again question whether or not this can count. Both Kareem and Worthy averaged 20 PPG, but at the same time, Magic averaged 13 APG on top of averaging 26 PPG and 8 RPG. One of the greatest finals series performances of all time? Yes. A legitimate carry job? That's a very tough case to make based on the help and support he had in this series.
Magic transforms careers and players. Kareem and Worthy were spoon fed. Magic made the game easy for them. Kareen was going to quite ball before Magic.

[Xiao Yao You]

LOL, this is exactly why he was the best player! Nobody scored 20 ppg. 4 players between 20 and 16ppg. It was the best scoring balancing act ever. Five key players averaged over .510 FG percentage. During the year the whole team shot over .517 from the feild. Magic was far and beyond casual fan comprehension.
Believe it or not this team shot 545 percent from the field during the RS. It was the most efficient team ever by a mile. It shot 512 percent in the finals against a great defensive team. This was Magic's greatest championship series to this point. His assist and control of the game was insane. This was the MVP Kareem should have gotten in 1980. Magic should have won this one. Kareem wasn't a player that carried teams. He did it once before Magic on 9 tries. His teams were rarely contenders. Once they added Magic, they were contenders every year. They were a more hungry team, a smarter team, a more versatile team and more of a team once Magic arrived. They had the same team before Magic arrived and they were at best OK.

Magic transforms careers and players. Kareem and Worthy were spoon fed. Magic made the game easy for them. Kareen was going to quite ball before Magic.

someone gets it

[Pointguard]

Magic was underated because this thread is 50 replies long and nobody even mentions what he does better than anybody else. Tony Parker will be a HOFer for doing just a facet of Magic's Magic. Nevermind Magic's superior judgement, his superior intuitive game, his ability to make other's better. He truely is one player that can dominate a game without scoring. Why is it that nobody brings up TS% when it comes to Magic who they swear he can't shoot or when they compare him to Bird. A poster here talked of Worthy clutch shot but somehow people rarely talk of Magic's clutch shot making. Magic's spectacular clutch making shots are without rival by anyone.

I don't think he can be over rated because fans aren't in the know.

[Xiao Yao You]

Magic was underated because this thread is 50 replies long and nobody even mentions what he does better than anybody else. Tony Parker will be a HOFer for doing just a facet of Magic's Magic. Nevermind Magic's superior judgement, his superior intuitive game, his ability to make other's better. He truely is one player that can dominate a game without scoring. Why is it that nobody brings up TS% when it comes to Magic who they swear he can't shoot or when they compare him to Bird. A poster here talked of Worthy clutch shot but somehow people rarely talk of Magic's clutch shot making. Magic's spectacular clutch making shots are without rival by anyone.

I don't think he can be over rated because fans aren't in the know.

Why? Obviously they didn't actually see him play

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The two main things in basketball is scoring and defense. Goat Kawhi has perfected both these things. Magic wasn't a great scorer and he was a below average defender. So I would go with magic being much closer to overrated then he is underrated.

[Xiao Yao You]

The two main things in basketball is scoring and defense. Goat Kawhi has perfected both these things. Magic wasn't a great scorer and he was a below average defender. So I would go with magic being much closer to overrated then he is underrated.

put up as much as 24 per game while dishing out 12 assists. Lakers certainly had a hard time scoring with a liability like him out there!

[Pointguard]

The two main things in basketball is scoring and defense. Goat Kawhi has perfected both these things. Magic wasn't a great scorer and he was a below average defender. So I would go with magic being much closer to overrated then he is underrated.

Magic's defense was also underrated. Magic controlled the pace of the game. Teams often played the Laker's game even super experienced teams like the Celtics. In two championship series the Celtics played the Laker's game and were ran into the ground. Its defense. Ainge shot 1 for 11 and Bird shot 6 for 16 in the final a game of '87 because they were tired. In '85 Ainge shot 3 for 16 and Dennis Johnson 3 or 15 and Bird 6 for 16 in the final game that year. Magic controlled the game in ways average fans don't understand. One can make an argument that no one player has ever pulled off that type of defense. They were definitely missing shots because of Magic controlling tempo. Tony Parker will be in the Hall of Fame because he had this attribute to a much smaller degree. TP doesn't really have much of any other attribute. He even could beat out TD for FMVP because of this trait. Very few players have this gift. There was a reason why Pop wanted Kidd and pre-injury Rose.

Magic also had the most feared defensive play in the game probably ever. When Magic stole the ball or got a rebound, it wasn't just a four/five point turn around - it was a crowd thunderstorm turnign the momentum of the game. The opposing team often tried to cheat to make sure this didn't happen. This only lead to more chaos for Magic to manipulate. Once again, Magic was underrated.

[Pointguard]

The two main things in basketball is scoring and defense. Goat Kawhi has perfected both these things. Magic wasn't a great scorer and he was a below average defender. So I would go with magic being much closer to overrated then he is underrated.

Kawhi is a weirdo. You can't depend on him, I mean outside of picking his nose on the side line. Just strange. Magic lead a team that shot 545 from the field one year. I do have Kahwhi underated as a nose picker.

[mr4speed]

Magic's defense was also underrated. Magic controlled the pace of the game. Teams often played the Laker's game even super experienced teams like the Celtics. In two championship series the Celtics played the Laker's game and were ran into the ground. Its defense. Ainge shot 1 for 11 and Bird shot 6 for 16 in the final a game of '87 because they were tired. In '85 Ainge shot 3 for 16 and Dennis Johnson 3 or 15 and Bird 6 for 16 in the final game that year. Magic controlled the game in ways average fans don't understand. One can make an argument that no one player has ever pulled off that type of defense. They were definitely missing shots because of Magic controlling tempo. Tony Parker will be in the Hall of Fame because he had this attribute to a much smaller degree. TP doesn't really have much of any other attribute. He even could beat out TD for FMVP because of this trait. Very few players have this gift. There was a reason why Pop wanted Kidd and pre-injury Rose.

Magic also had the most feared defensive play in the game probably ever. When Magic stole the ball or got a rebound, it wasn't just a four/five point turn around - it was a crowd thunderstorm turnign the momentum of the game. The opposing team often tried to cheat to make sure this didn't happen. This only lead to more chaos for Magic to manipulate. Once again, Magic was underrated.

Ok, I have to call BS to this narrative. So the other teams players missing shots are attributable to Magic but not the defense being played by Magic's teammates ( Cooper, Scoot, Worthy) guarding them?? Please stop this nonsense. Magic was not a good defender, never made 1 all defensive team during his entire career, and during his rookie year needed special coaching because the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA. For details, from Magic himself, see his book "My Life" pages 100 - 101. Magic was getting torched on the defensive end game after game by the opposing PG's. For further evaluation, see the "Thinking Basketball" series on you-tube, where Magic's defensive liabilities are discussed with video of examples of Magic providing little to no defense and players scoring easily against him. It is also ridiculous to give Magic 100% of the credit for the offense, as if Pat Riley, the coaching staff, and the other players on LA had no influence? I understand you like the pointguard position - your username explains it - but using a players offensive skills to claim said player is playing good defense is ridiculous.

[SaintzFury13]

LOL, this is exactly why he was the best player! Nobody scored 20 ppg. 4 players between 20 and 16ppg. It was the best scoring balancing act ever. Five key players averaged over .510 FG percentage. During the year the whole team shot over .517 from the feild. Magic was far and beyond casual fan comprehension.

The argument here isn't whether or not Magic was the best player. It's whether or not Magic carried them to a finals series victory. You aren't doing that if four of your teammates are scoring more than you.


Believe it or not this team shot 545 percent from the field during the RS. It was the most efficient team ever by a mile. It shot 512 percent in the finals against a great defensive team. This was Magic's greatest championship series to this point. His assist and control of the game was insane. This was the MVP Kareem should have gotten in 1980. Magic should have won this one. Kareem wasn't a player that carried teams. He did it once before Magic on 9 tries. His teams were rarely contenders. Once they added Magic, they were contenders every year. They were a more hungry team, a smarter team, a more versatile team and more of a team once Magic arrived. They had the same team before Magic arrived and they were at best OK.

You literally have misinterpreted what my point was. I never argued against Magic being the best player on the Lakers at their peak. I never argued against his performances being great. He tried to argue Magic carried the Lakers in every single finals series. I am stating with this argument that was not the case.


Magic transforms careers and players. Kareem and Worthy were spoon fed. Magic made the game easy for them. Kareen was going to quite ball before Magic.

Kareem was going to continue to be an elite player of the game with or without Magic. Worthy was likely going to be an all star level player with or without Magic. It's one thing to claim Magic carried the Lakers in every single finals. To now sit here and pretend that Magic transformed the careers of Kareem and Worthy? Like they would have needed him for that? Blasphemy.

[1987_Lakers]

Magic transforms careers and players. Kareem and Worthy were spoon fed. Magic made the game easy for them. Kareen was going to quite ball before Magic.

Amazing how a guy who had the most unstoppable shot in NBA history (skyhook) is now being labeled as spoon fed some 30+ years later, you just went full 3ball mode.

[SaintzFury13]

Amazing how a guy who had the most unstoppable shot in NBA history (skyhook) is now being labeled as spoon fed some 30+ years later, you just went full 3ball mode.

Technically there's a LITTLE bit of truth to it. Kareem probably doesn't become a 6 time NBA champion without Magic. But you can just as easily make the case of Magic not being a 5 time NBA champion without Kareem. They needed each other to have all time great resumes. One wasn't happening without the other.

[outofstomach]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/11Wkoq2MaUbLXi/giphy.gif?cid=790b761187a5d5324b572ba022b3d1266a8f 2ffadd5da3eb&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

I just can't with some of the people on this forum. Why are these so many dumb posters? I don't get it.
you would think Xiao who has a fetish for defense would get your point the first time, but i guess i gave him too much credit :lol :lol :lol

[Pointguard]

Ok, I have to call BS to this narrative. So the other teams players missing shots are attributable to Magic but not the defense being played by Magic's teammates ( Cooper, Scoot, Worthy) guarding them??
LOL, this is why folks who don't watch games shouldn't comment. If you watched those games, what I said is very obvious. If you think players acumen goes up when they can't catch their breath you are an idiot. They were missing those shots because of exhaustion. But I said this outright. The front court players and Bird were clutch players and weren't stopped by straight up defense. Its obvious as day.


Please stop this nonsense. Magic was not a good defender, never made 1 all defensive team during his entire career, and during his rookie year needed special coaching because the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA. For details, from Magic himself, see his book "My Life" pages 100 - 101. Magic was getting torched on the defensive end game after game by the opposing PG's. For further evaluation, see the "Thinking Basketball" series on you-tube, where Magic's defensive liabilities are discussed with video of examples of Magic providing little to no defense and players scoring easily against him.
:lol why would Magic be guarding opposing PG's in his first three years as a pro??? Norm Nixon was the PG. If you saw Magic play it should have dawned on you that he rarely ever guarded PGs. Guards weren't tearing up the league when Magic came in the league. Shooting guards Otis Birdsong and World B Free were on the East coast. And since when did the college game prepare you for the pros? In the conventional sense, Magic wasn't a solid defenderr but in a much bigger sense he was a great defender.

I said Magic controlled the game and made the opposing teams play his game. Its a defensive attribute because it doesn't put points on the board. If you see the other team is tired and run the ball after every possession, who is making the other team too exhausted to shoot? The coach? You know better. Its the guy that is making the opposition play his game. If you control the game, and make the other team play handicapped it means more than blocked shots or steals. Very few teams could execute in a fast pace game like Magic could: His team shot 545 from the field for a whole regular season. He was far more efficient than other teams without tiring them out.


It is also ridiculous to give Magic 100% of the credit for the offense, as if Pat Riley, the coaching staff, and the other players on LA had no influence? I understand you like the pointguard position - your username explains it - but using a players offensive skills to claim said player is playing good defense is ridiculous.
Its a game where a faster, more efficient smart player controls the game and the way its played. He's goinng to win most of the time. The coach can't speed the game up and make better decisions.

[WhiteKyrie]

Shouldn’t be. He’s the greatest PG ever. He’s a Mount Rushmore player. So, I don’t know how he’s underrated. He’s overrated when compared to Bird. But that’s about it.

[Pointguard]

Amazing how a guy who had the most unstoppable shot in NBA history (skyhook) is now being labeled as spoon fed some 30+ years later, you just went full 3ball mode.

Who was getting Kareem the ball before Magic when he was winning all those championships???

Kareem had major disdain for the game and it was showing before Magic came.

But Magic did make it easy. Kareem wasn't talking about retiring any more. Heck he didn't even hustle down court. Kareem definitely could get his own shot, no question there. But he never won without the greatest PG's in the game. He didn't need to be spoonfed but he loved it.

[Xiao Yao You]

you would think Xiao who has a fetish for defense would get your point the first time, but i guess i gave him too much credit :lol :lol :lol

Make a good point and I'm with ya. Saying he couldn't guard guys he didn't guard makes little sense :facepalm

[Pointguard]

Technically there's a LITTLE bit of truth to it. Kareem probably doesn't become a 6 time NBA champion without Magic. But you can just as easily make the case of Magic not being a 5 time NBA champion without Kareem. They needed each other to have all time great resumes. One wasn't happening without the other.

Maybe,
But I will say this, no way does Magic play in the '70's and gets only one ring when guys like Rick Barry, Dave Cowens, Maurice Lucas, Elvin Hayes and Jack Sikma were getting rings. And they did it when there were no other dynasties. That era was up for grabs.

[Thenameless]

Bird was the FMVP in 84 Kareem was the FMVP in 85 and Magic was the FMVP in 87. Kareem outplayed Parrish in all 3 of the Finals. Bird never played as bad in the clutch as Magic did in several games of the 84 Finals. Magic had better teams and an easier path to the Finals. Given Magic's not so great defense, he often gets overrated IMO.

The 86 Celtics are still the only team in history where all five starters were All Stars in the same year. You are way off man. Bird had the better team.

[ScottieQuitting]

The 86 Celtics are still the only team in history where all five starters were All Stars in the same year. You are way off man. Bird had the better team.

Isn’t that the team, that LeBron Stans criticize Michael for not stealing a game off of, after he missed the vast majority of the season with a broken foot and was on a minute restriction?

With his next best player being a coked out Orlando Woolridge?

Isn’t that the same series were Michael, and just his second season, averaged 44/6/6 on an all defensive team SG on one of the five best teams ever?

:biggums:

[Hey Yo]

The 86 Celtics are still the only team in history where all five starters were All Stars in the same year. You are way off man. Bird had the better team.

Ainge made his only All-Star game in 1988.

[Hey Yo]

Isn’t that the team, that LeBron Stans criticize Michael for not stealing a game off of, after he missed the vast majority of the season with a broken foot and was on a minute restriction?

With his next best player being a coked out Orlando Woolridge?

Isn’t that the same series were Michael, and just his second season, averaged 44/6/6 on an all defensive team SG on one of the five best teams ever?

:biggums:

Ainge never made an All-defensive team.

[RogueBorg]

To be fair, most of Kareem's points were created by himself. He didn't need anyone to spoon feed him.

That's B.S.

I watched Kareem play, he needed someone to get him the ball in the post. Don't post chit you know nothing about.

[Chick Stern]

He's in the top 5-7...he's not overrated. If anything he might be overrated by nostalgia. If you are going on this board full of cat litter eating retards of course you think hes underrated as they just obsess about Jordan, kobe, and lebron. If anything I think he's overrated as he's mostly put over Bird who to me was a clearly superior player.
In head to head Finals competition, Bird only beat Magic once.
Clearly NOT the superior player.

[SaintzFury13]

Make a good point and I'm with ya. Saying he couldn't guard guys he didn't guard makes little sense :facepalm

There's a reason he stopped guarding them, because he was constantly being lit up by them when he did.

Stop being an idiot.


In head to head Finals competition, Bird only beat Magic once.
Clearly NOT the superior player.

By that logic, Durant is superior to LeBron because he's 2-1 against him in Finals competition.

That's not how this works.


Isn’t that the team, that LeBron Stans criticize Michael for not stealing a game off of, after he missed the vast majority of the season with a broken foot and was on a minute restriction?

No, because almost no serious person discredits Jordan for not winning a game from that series. That would be like discrediting LeBron for not taking a game from the Warriors in 2018.


Maybe,
But I will say this, no way does Magic play in the '70's and gets only one ring when guys like Rick Barry, Dave Cowens, Maurice Lucas, Elvin Hayes and Jack Sikma were getting rings. And they did it when there were no other dynasties. That era was up for grabs.

To be fair, I think any team right now would love to have a Jack Sikma on their team.

[colts19]

In head to head Finals competition, Bird only beat Magic once.
Clearly NOT the superior player.

In those series, KAJ against Parrish was the key match-up. When you have all else being even, then KAJ dominating Parrish is the difference. Plus if one team has 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time, then you can talk all stars all you want it's not the same as having true greatness at two of the main positions PG and Center. Just think you have the Greatest center and the Greatest PG of all time on the same team. I remember reading a sports Illurstrated article that said if Bird had gone to LA and Magic to Boston LA might not have lost more than 7 or 8 games.

[Xiao Yao You]

There's a reason he stopped guarding them, because he was constantly being lit up by them when he did.

Stop being an idiot.



By that logic, Durant is superior to LeBron because he's 2-1 against him in Finals competition.

That's not how this works.



No, because almost no serious person discredits Jordan for not winning a game from that series. That would be like discrediting LeBron for not taking a game from the Warriors in 2018.



To be fair, I think any team right now would love to have a Jack Sikma on their team.

He wasn't guarding them because he was bigger than his sg's

[Xiao Yao You]

In those series, KAJ against Parrish was the key match-up. When you have all else being even, then KAJ dominating Parrish is the difference. Plus if one team has 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time, then you can talk all stars all you want it's not the same as having true greatness at two of the main positions PG and Center. Just think you have the Greatest center and the Greatest PG of all time on the same team. I remember reading a sports Illurstrated article that said if Bird had gone to LA and Magic to Boston LA might not have lost more than 7 or 8 games.

He wasn't the best center by the last couple championships anyway

[1987_Lakers]

That's B.S.

I watched Kareem play, he needed someone to get him the ball in the post. Don't post chit you know nothing about.

You're an idiot, so you need a Magic type passer to simply give the ball to Kareem in the post? Any capable guard can do that, in fact the Lakers had atrocious guards during the '77 postseason and Kareem still dropped like 34-35 a game in the playoffs.

No doubt Magic made life easier for every teammate, but Kareem could get his shot with or without Magic on the floor. This isn't Gobert we are talking about. Have some respect.

[Stephonit]

Magic controlled the pace of the game. Teams often played the Laker's game even super experienced teams like the Celtics. In two championship series the Celtics played the Laker's game and were ran into the ground. Its defense. Ainge shot 1 for 11 and Bird shot 6 for 16 in the final a game of '87 because they were tired. In '85 Ainge shot 3 for 16 and Dennis Johnson 3 or 15 and Bird 6 for 16 in the final game that year. Magic controlled the game in ways average fans don't understand. One can make an argument that no one player has ever pulled off that type of defense. They were definitely missing shots because of Magic controlling tempo.


LOL, this is why folks who don't watch games shouldn't comment. If you watched those games, what I said is very obvious. If you think players acumen goes up when they can't catch their breath you are an idiot. They were missing those shots because of exhaustion. But I said this outright. The front court players and Bird were clutch players and weren't stopped by straight up defense. Its obvious as day.

The Celtics playing series that went the full 7 games the prior two rounds against the Bucks and Pistons explains the Celtics' exhaustion pretty well.

[Pointguard]

The Celtics playing series that went the full 7 games the prior two rounds against the Bucks and Pistons explains the Celtics' exhaustion pretty well.

I fully believe Magic understood that... . I mean the exact same thing happened two years prior without Boston going seven games in any series. It was bound to work with them being a bit more tired. Tired or not, Magic controlled the pace and Boston in both series.

[Pointguard]

You're an idiot, so you need a Magic type passer to simply give the ball to Kareem in the post? Any capable guard can do that, in fact the Lakers had atrocious guards during the '77 postseason and Kareem still dropped like 34-35 a game in the playoffs.

This is why I say Magic is underrated. He's not understood. For Kareem scoring was easy, winning in the NBA never was easy for him. Give the ball to a great guard who can manage the clock, the team decision making and get everybody their best shot. Kareem didn't have to rebound and could focus on just getting to his best spot on the floor - now he's a winning player all the time. He's way more focused, way more of a team player, he's not griping or upset in general. Magic was the guy that could hit you in the sweet spots and in rhythm. Unlike Kareem's previous four years before Magic, Kareem was fully engaged on winning team basketball.

[Pointguard]

To be fair, I think any team right now would love to have a Jack Sikma on their team.

How about that. Another underrated.

[mr4speed]

LOL, this is why folks who don't watch games shouldn't comment. If you watched those games, what I said is very obvious. If you think players acumen goes up when they can't catch their breath you are an idiot. They were missing those shots because of exhaustion. But I said this outright. The front court players and Bird were clutch players and weren't stopped by straight up defense. Its obvious as day.

:lol why would Magic be guarding opposing PG's in his first three years as a pro??? Norm Nixon was the PG. If you saw Magic play it should have dawned on you that he rarely ever guarded PGs. Guards weren't tearing up the league when Magic came in the league. Shooting guards Otis Birdsong and World B Free were on the East coast. And since when did the college game prepare you for the pros? In the conventional sense, Magic wasn't a solid defenderr but in a much bigger sense he was a great defender.

I said Magic controlled the game and made the opposing teams play his game. Its a defensive attribute because it doesn't put points on the board. If you see the other team is tired and run the ball after every possession, who is making the other team too exhausted to shoot? The coach? You know better. Its the guy that is making the opposition play his game. If you control the game, and make the other team play handicapped it means more than blocked shots or steals. Very few teams could execute in a fast pace game like Magic could: His team shot 545 from the field for a whole regular season. He was far more efficient than other teams without tiring them out.

Its a game where a faster, more efficient smart player controls the game and the way its played. He's goinng to win most of the time. The coach can't speed the game up and make better decisions.
Yes I watched those games and can tell you it was obvious that every missed shot was not because of exhaustion. Most shots are missed because of the defensive pressure, individual and team, and coverage and skill of the players doing the guarding! So all the missed shots in the first half of a game were due to exhaustion? And when the opposing team hit their shots they somehow caught their breath? There is a reason Norm Nixon was guarding the opposing team's PG. And it was because Magic failed in his attempts early as a rookie and could not guard them. Magic admits to getting torched game after game and a change had to be made.
Inside Sports - volume 8 from June of 1986 had a great article titled "Secrets of the LA Breaks" and here are a few points that need to be mentioned. "The Laker's fastbreaks are fully orchestrated, with prescribed passes and passages" and "The Lakers always rehearse their running game, a series of complex designs requiring six pages of description in the playbook" and from Bill Bertka the assistant coach, "The basic premise is that high percentage shots are available before the defenses can organize" and "Most teams practice at 75% but LA always will rehearse their fastbreak at full throttle" This in no way takes away from Magic's great performance as a PG but it shows how much work was put in by the whole team and coaching staff to promote this style.
If Magic is your favorite player, that is great, but the truth is he was not a good defender. Trying to spin it and ignore it doesn't work. For that reason he can't be the "goat" because too many other players were good at both ends of the floor.

[Pointguard]

Yes I watched those games and can tell you it was obvious that every missed shot was not because of exhaustion. Most shots are missed because of the defensive pressure, individual and team, and coverage and skill of the players doing the guarding!
You are talking about very seasoned clutch players who were used to being guarded by the Lakers. In game one Bird shot .571 percent and Ainge .600 in '85: and Bird shot 560 in game one '87 with Ainge shooting .667. From my earlier post: Ainge shot 1 for 11 and Bird shot 6 for 16 in the final a game of '87 because they were tired. In '85 Ainge shot 3 for 16 and Dennis Johnson 3 or 15 and Bird 6 for 16 in the final game that year.. I tend to think it was attrition. You say Bird and Johnson weren't as clutch as we think. Another Celtic fan said here said they were tired from the previous game sevens.


So all the missed shots in the first half of a game were due to exhaustion? And when the opposing team hit their shots they somehow caught their breath?
I don't get your point your legs get weaker as the game goes on usually. I recall the Lakers just killing them in the third quarters.


There is a reason Norm Nixon was guarding the opposing team's PG. And it was because Magic failed in his attempts early as a rookie and could not guard them. Magic admits to getting torched game after game and a change had to be made.
Why would they put Magic on a small quicker player that wasn't playing his position? You aren't making sense. Bird took the weaker cover at forward and was winning defensive awards when McHale was the defensive specialist at forward. McHale guarded the top scorers at forward. So don't act like this is a new concept.


Inside Sports - volume 8 from June of 1986 had a great article titled "Secrets of the LA Breaks" and here are a few points that need to be mentioned. "The Laker's fastbreaks are fully orchestrated, with prescribed passes and passages" and "The Lakers always rehearse their running game, a series of complex designs requiring six pages of description in the playbook" and from Bill Bertka the assistant coach, "The basic premise is that high percentage shots are available before the defenses can organize" and "Most teams practice at 75% but LA always will rehearse their fastbreak at full throttle" This in no way takes away from Magic's great performance as a PG but it shows how much work was put in by the whole team and coaching staff to promote this style.
If Magic is your favorite player, that is great, but the truth is he was not a good defender. Trying to spin it and ignore it doesn't work. For that reason he can't be the "goat" because too many other players were good at both ends of the floor.

One, I said he controls the game better than anyone who ever played the game. If you disagree, Humor me and name me a player on his level. Tony Parker also could do this very well and will get in the HOF because of it. Jason Kidd took a last place team to the championship within one year primarily with this as his main attribute. If your opponent is playing your game its much easier to win. This is a defensive attribute. No spin. Its real and you hate that it is.

Two, Magic also had the most feared defensive play in the game probably ever. When Magic stole the ball or got a rebound, it wasn't just a four/five point turn around - it was a crowd thunderstorm turnign the momentum of the game. The opposing team often played on their heels to prevent the greatest defense to offense play in the game. Yes so teams often didn't operate their offense properly when dealing with Magic.

Please refute those points because you aren't making much sensse otherwise.

[Chick Stern]

In those series, KAJ against Parrish was the key match-up. When you have all else being even, then KAJ dominating Parrish is the difference. Plus if one team has 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time, then you can talk all stars all you want it's not the same as having true greatness at two of the main positions PG and Center. Just think you have the Greatest center and the Greatest PG of all time on the same team. I remember reading a sports Illurstrated article that said if Bird had gone to LA and Magic to Boston LA might not have lost more than 7 or 8 games.
It is amazing how people will bend over backwards when they read something they don’t like.
All I did was post a factual statement.
Kareem did not go to college with Magic.
and lol @ SI. If Superman had lived in Germany, he would have been Übermann.

[colts19]

It is amazing how people will bend over backwards when they read something they don’t like.
All I did was post a factual statement.
Kareem did not go to college with Magic.
and lol @ SI. If Superman had lived in Germany, he would have been Übermann.

You are right Bird only beat Magic once. However, it is not a factual statement that Magic was the superior player. He had the superior team.

[Xiao Yao You]

You are right Bird only beat Magic once. However, it is not a factual statement that Magic was the superior player. He had the superior team.

highly debatable. Boston was loaded. Better front court. Several HOFers

[mr4speed]

You are talking about very seasoned clutch players who were used to being guarded by the Lakers. In game one Bird shot .571 percent and Ainge .600 in '85: and Bird shot 560 in game one '87 with Ainge shooting .667. From my earlier post: Ainge shot 1 for 11 and Bird shot 6 for 16 in the final a game of '87 because they were tired. In '85 Ainge shot 3 for 16 and Dennis Johnson 3 or 15 and Bird 6 for 16 in the final game that year.. I tend to think it was attrition. You say Bird and Johnson weren't as clutch as we think. Another Celtic fan said here said they were tired from the previous game sevens.

I don't get your point your legs get weaker as the game goes on usually. I recall the Lakers just killing them in the third quarters.
Why would they put Magic on a small quicker player that wasn't playing his position? You aren't making sense. Bird took the weaker cover at forward and was winning defensive awards when McHale was the defensive specialist at forward. McHale guarded the top scorers at forward. So don't act like this is a new concept.


One, I said he controls the game better than anyone who ever played the game. If you disagree, Humor me and name me a player on his level. Tony Parker also could do this very well and will get in the HOF because of it. Jason Kidd took a last place team to the championship within one year primarily with this as his main attribute. If your opponent is playing your game its much easier to win. This is a defensive attribute. No spin. Its real and you hate that it is.

Two, Magic also had the most feared defensive play in the game probably ever. When Magic stole the ball or got a rebound, it wasn't just a four/five point turn around - it was a crowd thunderstorm turnign the momentum of the game. The opposing team often played on their heels to prevent the greatest defense to offense play in the game. Yes so teams often didn't operate their offense properly when dealing with Magic.

Please refute those points because you aren't making much sensse otherwise.

I think the poorer performance in a game 6 vs a game 1, is due to the preparation and observation of the players and the coaches, regarding match-ups, plays being run and what has worked in the previous 5 games. Fatigue can be a factor but you are really stretching this. These players are great athletes and in good condition. If you had some facts to support a steady decline in the 3rd quarter and 4th quarter, with regard to shooting in every game , then I would agree with you.
You and I have a fundamental difference in defining offense and defense. Pick up any basketball book and look up Defense and you are not going to find a chapter titled "How to run the fastbreak." The fastbreak is an offensive attribute, designed to get a score before the opposing team has had a chance to set up a defense. If your team runs 50 fastbreaks and scores every time but you lose the game, your team lost because your defense could not stop the other team from scoring more.
Magic was not a good defender and that is ok. His skills make him an all time great but not a goat.

[Pointguard]

I think the poorer performance in a game 6 vs a game 1, is due to the preparation and observation of the players and the coaches, regarding match-ups, plays being run and what has worked in the previous 5 games. Fatigue can be a factor but you are really stretching this. These players are great athletes and in good condition. If you had some facts to support a steady decline in the 3rd quarter and 4th quarter, with regard to shooting in every game , then I would agree with you.
You and I have a fundamental difference in defining offense and defense. Pick up any basketball book and look up Defense and you are not going to find a chapter titled "How to run the fastbreak." The fastbreak is an offensive attribute, designed to get a score before the opposing team has had a chance to set up a defense. If your team runs 50 fastbreaks and scores every time but you lose the game, your team lost because your defense could not stop the other team from scoring more.
Magic was not a good defender and that is ok. His skills make him an all time great but not a goat.
You are just bent on making sure that Magic doesn't get credit for defense.

He's definitely a GOAT. You are just being silly. You never address the control part of the game because you can't.?. If a fighter makes you fight his fight, you act like you don't know. Its the same way with all sports and even virtual Y2K games: if you are better at the controls you win. The person who imposes his will on the game will win. With Boston, the back court players got tired and missed. McHale and Parrish shot very well because Kareem and Rambis wasn't going to hustle every play. Bird and DJ were among the most clutch shooters ever. There were no "tragic Magic" labels being thrown at Bird and DJ when they had these repeat patterns. Ainge, DJ and Bird don't shoot a combined 30% FG between them in '85.

I'm not saying the fast break is defensive. Trying to keep up with a player who is constantly running can tire the other team, primarily the back court players, to the point their legs weaken and they miss shots is in the end defensive. Why do you think Curry isn't winning finals MVP's??? Most great shooters start missing shots later in the playoffs because the legs weaken. Sure some of it can be nerves but that isn't the case with Bird and DJ and Curry who are fearless and proven. Magic could play at break neck speeds and not miss a beat thinking wise. That was his advantage. And he controlled the game by forcing an uptempo game. Other teams start messing up when the game is played too fast. Their TOV goes up but Magic's game becomes more precise and is executed better.

[FKAri]

highly debatable. Boston was loaded. Better front court. Several HOFers

At their best Bird was almost certainly the better player. Though, Bird was not able to play at that level for very long because of his back. Then Magic left the NBA on top while being better than Bird and everyone watched Bird struggle around for another year before retiring. This is the memory that has lived on in many people's minds.

[Xiao Yao You]

At their best Bird was almost certainly the better player. Though, Bird was not able to play at that level for very long because of his back. Then Magic left the NBA on top while being better than Bird and everyone watched Bird struggle around for another year before retiring. This is the memory that has lived on in many people's minds.

My memory was that they were on a similar level fighting each other for the title year after year

[Pointguard]

At their best Bird was almost certainly the better player. Though, Bird was not able to play at that level for very long because of his back. Then Magic left the NBA on top while being better than Bird and everyone watched Bird struggle around for another year before retiring. This is the memory that has lived on in many people's minds.

What year was Bird's best? Magic usually outplayed him in the bigger games h2h even in Bird's prime. The only year Bird won was when Magic played bad, it wasn't really because of Bird's stellar play.

[Thenameless]

The two main things in basketball is scoring and defense. Goat Kawhi has perfected both these things. Magic wasn't a great scorer and he was a below average defender. So I would go with magic being much closer to overrated then he is underrated.

The third thing is actually playing. Something your boy ain't gonna be doing a lot of next season.

[Round Mound]

Magic was the player that got me in to basketball. Bird was better peak wise but Magic had a longer prime. Bird did have a great series in 84 when the Cetics won. I think he averaged like 27 and 14 despite the Lakers having a better team. Magic gets underrated because of todays 3-point shooting fest. He wasn't a very good 3-point shooter but he he developed some range in his later years. I still think he is the GOAT PG.

[Pointguard]

Magic was the player that got me in to basketball. Bird was better peak wise but Magic had a longer prime. Bird did have a great series in 84 when the Cetics won. I think he averaged like 27 and 14 despite the Lakers having a better team. Magic gets underrated because of todays 3-point shooting fest. He wasn't a very good 3-point shooter but he he developed some range in his later years. I still think he is the GOAT PG.

So you are saying 84 was Bird's best year. But if Magic doesn't play bad guess who wins that year? And Cedric Maxwell wins the clincher. The two games that were played at over 90 degree temperatures (one game at 97 degrees). Then to even the series at 2 apiece, there was Bird picking fights with Kareem and Cooper after calling his teammates sisies and the Celtics just went full bully mode as McHale flat out tackles Rambis this game was won by the Celtics. This was the Tragic Johnson game as well. The Celtic's also won the two heat games at home. The Celtics also won game 1 beating the Lakers withing 36 hours of the Lakers beating Pheonix.

I will challenge you to name another finals that was won on more things not basketball effect play. It was a very freaky finals. But Bird won. And as far as a better team, you don't hype Isiah for beating the Celtics and Lakers... .

[Round Mound]

So you are saying 84 was Bird's best year. But if Magic doesn't play bad guess who wins that year? And Cedric Maxwell wins the clincher. The two games that were played at over 90 degree temperatures (one game at 97 degrees). Then to even the series at 2 apiece, there was Bird picking fights with Kareem and Cooper after calling his teammates sisies and the Celtics just went full bully mode as McHale flat out tackles Rambis this game was won by the Celtics. This was the Tragic Johnson game as well. The Celtic's also won the two heat games at home. The Celtics also won game 1 beating the Lakers withing 36 hours of the Lakers beating Pheonix.

I will challenge you to name another finals that was won on more things not basketball effect play. It was a very freaky finals. But Bird won. And as far as a better team, you don't hype Isiah for beating the Celtics and Lakers... .

I've watched the whole 1984 nba finals series various times and Lakers had a better team. Bird played bad the first couple of games but after the McHale-Rambins incident which was yes true ignited by Bird the Celtics just when't to physical on the Lakers. I don't hype Isiah? I have Isiah as a Top 5 All Time PG but the difference with the Late 80's and 90 Pistons and the Celtics and Lakers is that they had a great balance of role players BOTH Defensively and Offensively. Offense you had: Dumars, Dantley, Aguirre and Isiah. Then defensively you had Rodman, Salley, Mahorn and Laimbeer. Much better defensive teams than both the Lakers and the injury prone late 80s Celtics.