Was it clear on the court that Jordan was better than Magic and Bird?

[iamgine]

I know there were some quips from Magic or Bird saying Jordan was god disguised or something like that.

But did anyone watch them face each other, maybe around 87-88 ish before Bird sharply declined...did you feel like this Jordan guy was clearly better?

[SouBeachTalents]

Bird was busting Jordan's ass for a while, not just team result wise but individually too


I mean just look at the '87-'88 stretch where they matched up 10 times in the season and once in the playoffs. Both were healthy and MVP caliber players so no excuses for either player...


11/14/86
Bird - 37/10/5 (13/25 shooting)
Jordan - 48/5/1 (17/33 shooting)

Celtics win, I'd say it's a wash though.

01/02/87
Bird - 37/8/9 (61.1%)
Jordan - 34/8/3 (41.9%)

Celtics win, Bird easily wins the matchup. Highlights of the game here:


27/01/87
Bird - 24/14/3 (39%)
Jordan - 30/6/4 (38%)

Celtics win. Wash.

28/01/87
Bird - 26/5/9 (65%)
Jordan - 27/4/4 (48%)
Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

27/03/87
Bird - 41/7/7 (58.6%)
Jordan - 22/7/7 (39.1%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.


17/04/87
Bird - 38/8/7 (59%)
Jordan - 17/4/8 (33%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

12/01/88
Bird - 38/9/8 (58%)
Jordan - 42/4/6 (53%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

18/03/88
Bird - 19/10/6
Jordan - 50/9/5

Bulls win. Jordan finally wins head to head.

20/03/88
Bird - 33/7/8 (67%)
Jordan - 26/4/7 (56%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup. Highlights:


21/04/88
Bird - 44/10/3 (65.5%)
Jordan - 39/3/8 (51.5%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup *yawn*


Bird's record in this stretch? 9-1 while outperforming him in nearly every game. What makes this worse? Bird made Jordan look like a child when Jordan tried to guard him. Meanwhile the possessions I saw Bird guard Jordan, he defended him quite well (definitly wasn't gambling for steals to leave him open in the post).

- fatal9

[SATAN]

Michael Jordan lost a game of one on one vs a 5'5 investment banker :wtf:

[tontoz]

In his second season Jordan dropped 63 on the Celtics in the first round of the playoffs, a record that still stands. Bird said that was the best team he ever played on and they won the title that year. That was when Bird said he was God disguised as Jordan.

He he wasn't really seen as the consensus best player until he won a title. There was a lot of talk about him being too selfish.

There was one guy saying he was the best early on. Bobby knight coached Jordan in the Olympics. Ironically Knight's team eliminated Jordan from the NCAA tourney. After the Olympics Knight said Jordan was the best he had ever seen.

[j3lademaster]

In his second season Jordan dropped 63 on the Celtics in the first round of the playoffs, a record that still stands. Bird said that was the best team he ever played on and they won the title that year. That was when Bird said he was God disguised as Jordan.

He he wasn't really seen as the consensus best player until he won a title. There was a lot of talk about him being too selfish.

There was one guy saying he was the best early on. Bobby knight coached Jordan in the Olympics. Ironically Knight's team eliminated Jordan from the NCAA tourney. After the Olympics Knight said Jordan was the best he had ever seen.Thanks for the insight.

[tontoz]

Here is a vid of the 63 point game. Keep in mind Jordan missed most of that season with a foot injury. The team wanted to sit him out for the season. He accused them if trying to tank to get a better draft pick.

He was on a minutes restriction when he came back which pissed him off. Krause threatened to fire the coach when he played Jordan too many minutes and in fact did fire him after the season.


https://youtu.be/oLrzsdKmgFc

[Thenameless]

Actually, it was pretty clear that Bird was better than Jordan, up until his decline.

[j3lademaster]

Here is a vid of the 63 point game. Keep in mind Jordan missed most of that season with a foot injury. The team wanted to sit him out for the season. He accused them if trying to tank to get a better draft pick.

He was on a minutes restriction when he came back which pissed him off. Krause threatened to fire the coach when he played Jordan too many minutes and in fact did fire him after the season.


https://youtu.be/oLrzsdKmgFcUnwinnable situation right there. I would've sided with the guy signing my checks, but trying to coach at the highest lvl with a pissed off star doesn't sound fun either.

[jlip]

I honestly would take any praise from Bird with a grain of salt. Bird would flip flop, hand out superlatives, and GOAT proclamations based upon whatever the last great/ dominant performance was or whatever was going on in his mind at the time.

[tontoz]

Prime Bird was really incredible. his size, IQ and variety of skills were quite a show. However his defense wasn't great and he had a finger injury which hampered his shooting throughout his career. He said he was a better shooter in college.


. “Bird laughs a little bit and holds up his right index finger,” John Papanek recounted in a 1981 Sports Illustrated story. “‘This,’ he says. The finger is shaped much like a boomerang, permanently bent toward his thumb at a 45-degree angle. Two operations have failed to straighten it; he can bend it only halfway to his palm. ‘I didn’t have this in college,’ he says.”

For all of his time on the hardwood, the forward didn’t even sustain the injury playing basketball. Bird bent it trying to field a line drive during a softball game and never straightened the finger again. Despite his eventual NBA success, that fateful finger became a “what-if” about his legendary career.


https://www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-became-deadly-nba-scorer-despite-permanently-bent-finger/

[CTbasketball92]

Bird was busting Jordan's ass for a while, not just team result wise but individually too

I think a lot of these matchup wins are nominal and don't mean much. It doesn't really matter if Bird had 44 points and MJ had 39, etc. Bird always had a much better team and was in position to do less.

Mind you, I did not see them live so not saying Bird couldn't win a matchup, but I wouldn't call this him busting MJ's ass.

[insight]

Actually, it was pretty clear that Bird was better than Jordan, up until his decline.
I STRONGLY disagree, I WATCHED all those games between the Celtics, Lakers and Chicago. The Celtics and Lakers had the better teams but NO ONE could stop Micheal Jordan. He was moving at a different speed than everyone else and it was obvious. What Micheal was critized for back then was not playing team basketball or winning basketball but skill wise Micheal he was on another level.

[Axe]

I STRONGLY disagree, I WATCHED all those games between the Celtics, Lakers and Chicago. The Celtics and Lakers had the better teams but NO ONE could stop Micheal Jordan. He was moving at a different speed than everyone else and it was obvious. What Micheal was critized for back then was not playing team basketball or winning basketball but skill wise Micheal he was on another level.
He wasn't leading the bulls anywhere until they got scottie pippen. Hence, 1-9.

[FKAri]

You have to realize that conventional wisdom about a guard back then was quite different than now. A guard was one of the less important positions on the team. You built around a star big man or at worst a star forward. MJ redefined what was possible from the position. Since the early Bulls teams were so bad, it took people some time to conclude that this wasn't just an exciting flashy player. This guy was unstoppable and can run off championships with the right cast.

Also, in the 80s there were doubts over his ability to play within a team, leadership skills, blaming him for his shit team, etc, the usual young superstar treatment from the grumpy old heads. This is what Bird and Magic had over him(since they were vets on stacked teams). By the 90s MJ answered those questions and with his superior physical talents, he was able to surpass them. Though Bird and Magic also had fairly abrupt ends to their prime which made this a pretty short transition.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bird was much MUCH better than Jordan. That isn't even close to me. No question Bird was better than Jordan at pretty much everything... smarter, tougher, and more clutch as well

Love me some Jordan but Bird was far superior.

[Bronbron23]

I know there were some quips from Magic or Bird saying Jordan was god disguised or something like that.

But did anyone watch them face each other, maybe around 87-88 ish before Bird sharply declined...did you feel like this Jordan guy was clearly better?

No bird and magic were probably better because of the mental aspect of the game. Mj at the time was playing more of a ball dominant style like bron which was inferior to the way magic and especially bird played. Mj didn't get on their level until phil convinced mj to play within the system instead of being the system

[FKAri]

No bird and magic were probably better because of the mental aspect of the game. Mj at the time was playing more of a ball dominant style like bron which was inferior to the way magic and especially bird played. Mj didn't get on their level until phil convinced mj to play within the system instead of being the system

He didn't have Magic's leadership and Bird's bbiq. And although he improved those aspects it never reached their's. That being said, give MJ a good team in the 80s and I'm not sure those guys were much better if at all at the tail end of the decade. MJ's terrible teams held him back from being able to prove his abilities on the highest level(which is what was keeping him from the conversation of best in the world). The 63 point performance was an eye opener for a lot of people.

[WhiteKyrie]

Definitely. Especially in the 1991 Finals.

Jordan: 31 ppg (56%), 7 rpg, 11 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg
Magic: 19 ppg (43%), 8 rpg, 12 apg, 1 spg, 0 bpg

Magic Johnson is the best point guard ever, and a mount Rushmore player. But he was atrocious on defense. Significantly worse than Larry Bird. He literally lets Sleepy Floyd in a playoff game drop 51 points on him

[Overdrive]

Definitely. Especially in the 1991 Finals.

Jordan: 31 ppg (56%), 7 rpg, 11 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg
Magic: 19 ppg (43%), 8 rpg, 12 apg, 1 spg, 0 bpg

Magic Johnson is the best point guard ever, and a mount Rushmore player. But he was atrocious on defense. Significantly worse than Larry Bird. He literally lets Sleepy Floyd in a playoff game drop 51 points on him

What did Madonna think about Magic?

[Psileas]

Definitely. Especially in the 1991 Finals.

Jordan: 31 ppg (56%), 7 rpg, 11 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg
Magic: 19 ppg (43%), 8 rpg, 12 apg, 1 spg, 0 bpg

Magic Johnson is the best point guard ever, and a mount Rushmore player. But he was atrocious on defense. Significantly worse than Larry Bird. He literally lets Sleepy Floyd in a playoff game drop 51 points on him

Magic literally had very little to do with Floyd's 51 points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYvbSTWrgBk
And he wasn't an atrocious defender. He was always a smart, valuable team defender and never do such players qualify as "atrocious". Neither was he atrocious when he got to guard players close to his own size and athleticism instead of small, quick guards that weren't his type.

[Bronbron23]

He didn't have Magic's leadership and Bird's bbiq. And although he improved those aspects it never reached their's. That being said, give MJ a good team in the 80s and I'm not sure those guys were much better if at all at the tail end of the decade. MJ's terrible teams held him back from being able to prove his abilities on the highest level(which is what was keeping him from the conversation of best in the world). The 63 point performance was an eye opener for a lot of people.

Yeah its tough to say for sure because those guys had better teams but i don't think mj dominates the 80's like he did the 90's. At very least i feel like the bad boys, laker and Celtics would get at least a chip or 2 off mj's 90's bulls. It's hypothetical so who knows but i don't think he gets 6 in the 80's

[Full Court]

If anyone actually remembers that far back, there was a lot of debate in the late 80s over who was better - Bird or Jordan. To say that it was clear back then that either one was better than the other is just flat out wrong. It was extremely close. Now I think that in the 90s when Jordan peaked, he passed up Bird (and pretty much everyone else).

And a lot of people today don't realize just how significant Jordan dropping 63 on the Celtics was at the time. But still, neither one was blowing the other out of the water.

[RogueBorg]

I'm old enough to have watched all three. The Celtics and Lakers were a better team than the Bulls and they remained better the rest of the decade. But by 1988, Jordan was the best player in the league, offensively and defensively better than both Bird an Magic. There is no player in the history of the game that if you could some how have plucked them out of their era and put them on the 80's Bulls, they're still not beating those Lakers or Celtics.

[RogueBorg]

If anyone actually remembers that far back, there was a lot of debate in the late 80s over who was better - Bird or Jordan. To say that it was clear back then that either one was better than the other is just flat out wrong. It was extremely close. Now I think that in the 90s when Jordan peaked, he passed up Bird (and pretty much everyone else).

And a lot of people today don't realize just how significant Jordan dropping 63 on the Celtics was at the time. But still, neither one was blowing the other out of the water.

From '85-'87 it was pretty clear Bird was better. But by 1988, Jordan had passed him. But the Bulls weren't beating that great Celtics team. Bird had too many quality teammates around him. One player isn't beating 5 by himself.

[FKAri]

Yeah its tough to say for sure because those guys had better teams but i don't think mj dominates the 80's like he did the 90's. At very least i feel like the bad boys, laker and Celtics would get at least a chip or 2 off mj's 90's bulls. It's hypothetical so who knows but i don't think he gets 6 in the 80's

The talent disparity in the 80s between the elite teams and lottery teams was huge. There were no super teams in the 90s of comparable strength to those of the 80s.

[Bronbron23]

The talent disparity in the 80s between the elite teams and lottery teams was huge. There were no super teams in the 90s of comparable strength to those of the 80s.

Yes the elite teams in the 80's were better than the 90's but it's not like mj had alot of help offensively especially during the second 3 peat. Pip averaged 18 on 41% during the post season during that time and i won't even bother bringing up Rodman's numbers. Defensively they were elite though. This is why i think they could of possibly hung with the elite offensive teams of the 80's. If The bad boy Pistons could hang with them no reason why the 2nd three peat bulls couldn't

[Gohan]

Bird is white therfore he could never be better than jordan who is black

[tontoz]

Bird is white therfore he could never be better than jordan who is black


You do realize the current MVP is white, right? :oldlol:

[RogueBorg]

Bird is white therfore he could never be better than jordan who is black

Bird's not white, he's clear.
Sincerely, Bill Murray

[ralph_i_el]

I STRONGLY disagree, I WATCHED all those games between the Celtics, Lakers and Chicago. The Celtics and Lakers had the better teams but NO ONE could stop Micheal Jordan. He was moving at a different speed than everyone else and it was obvious. What Micheal was critized for back then was not playing team basketball or winning basketball but skill wise Micheal he was on another level.

Team basketball is a skill.

[Bronbron23]

Team basketball is a skill.

Yeah. Being able to get your individual stats and accolades within a system is way more impressive and effective than doing it while dominating the ball.

[RogueBorg]

Team basketball is a skill.

It's easier to play team basketball if your teammates are McHale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge, and Walton.

[dankok8]

Before Bird started succumbing to injuries in 1988...

Cumulative Season Stats (1984-1988; 17 games)

Jordan: 32.4 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.4 spg, 1.1 bpg on 49.1 %FG/55.8 %TS with 2.6 topg
Bird: 29.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.1 bpg on 52.5 %FG/59.5 %TS with 2.8 topg

Cumulative Playoff Stats (1986-1987; 6 games)

Jordan: 39.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg on 46.4 %FG/55.9 %TS with 3.7 topg
Bird: 27.2 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.8 bpg on 53.1 %FG/65.4 %TS with 2.8 topg

And here it is game-by-game:



Regular Season

84-85

11/15/1984

Jordan: 27/2/2/2/1 (12/24, 3/3) with 1 turnover
Bird: 14/17/3/3/0 (6/17, 2/2) with 3 turnovers

Celtics win.

12/22/1984

Jordan: 32/12/8/0/3 (12/18, 8/8) with 3 turnovers
Bird: 10/7/4/0/0 (3/14, 4/4) with 2 turnovers

Bulls win.

1/9/1985

Jordan: 36/6/6/2/1 (12/24, 12/13) with 4 turnovers
Bird: 28/11/4/3/3 (9/21, 10/10) with 2 turnovers

Celtics win.

2/5/1985

Jordan: 41/12/7/4/1 (14/25, 13/14) with 1 turnover
Bird: 27/9/7/1/3 (9/21, 8/8) with 4 turnovers

Celtics win.

2/22/1985

Jordan: 26/4/7/3/0 (8/18, 10/12) with 3 turnovers
Bird: 34/8/5/2/0 (16/28, 0/0) with 5 turnovers

Celtics win.

3/6/1985

Jordan: 33/7/3/5/2 (13/28, 7/7) with 5 turnovers
Bird: 25/9/10/4/1 (11/24, 2/2) with 6 turnovers

Bulls win.

Season Stats

Jordan: 32.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 spg, 1.3 bpg on 51.8 %FG/60.2 %TS with 2.8 topg
Bird: 23.0 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.7 bpg, 0.5 bpg on 43.2 %FG/50.6 %TS with 3.7 topg

85-86

3/21/1986

Jordan: 20/2/1/0/1 (7/16, 6/7) with 1 turnover
Bird: 32/6/8/3/0 (11/18, 8/8) with 4 turnovers

Celtics win. Jordan played 16 minutes.

86-87

11/14/86

Jordan: 48/5/1/2/1 (17/33, 13/14) with 0 turnovers
Bird: 37/10/5/1/2 (13/25, 11/12) with 6 turnovers

Celtics win,

01/02/87

Jordan: 34/8/3/1/0 (13/31, 8/10) with 2 turnovers
Bird: 37/8/9/1/2 (11/18, 12/13) with 2 turnovers

Celtics win,

1/27/87

Jordan: 30/5/6/2/0 (13/34, 4/6) with 5 turnovers
Bird: 24/14/3/4/1 (10/26, 3/4) with 2 turnovers

Celtics win.

1/28/87

Jordan: 27/4/4/1/1 (11/23, 5/8) with 6 turnovers
Bird: 26/5/9/1/1 (11/17, 3/3) with 2 turnovers

Celtics win.

3/27/87

Jordan: 22/7/7/7/1 (9/23, 4/5) with 3 turnovers
Bird: 41/7/7/3/1 (17/29, 6/6) with 2 turnovers

Celtics win.

4/17/87

Jordan: 17/4/8/0/2 (5/15, 7/7) with 1 turnover
Bird: 38/8/7/1/1 (17/29, 2/2) with 1 turnover

Celtics win.

Season Stats

Jordan: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.8 bpg on 42.8 %FG/49.2 %TS with 2.8 topg
Bird: 33.8 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 7.5 apg, 1.8 bpg, 1.3 bpg on 54.9 %FG/62.8 %TS with 2.5 topg

87-88

1/12/88

Jordan: 42/4/6/3/1 (19/35, 4/5) with 0 turnovers
Bird: 38/9/8/2/0 (18/31, 2/3) with 1 turnover

Celtics win.

3/18/88

Jordan: 50/5/9/5/1 (19/32, 11/11) with 1 turnover
Bird: 19/10/6/2/1 (8/19, 3/4) with 5 turnovers

Bulls win.

3/20/88

Jordan: 26/4/7/1/1 (10/18, 6/8) with 5 turnovers
Bird: 33/7/8/0/0 (14/21, 2/2) with 0 turnovers

Celtics win.

4/21/88

Jordan: 39/3/8/2/1 (17/33, 5/6) with 4 turnovers
Bird: 44/10/3/1/1 (19/29, 6/6) with 1 turnover

Celtics win.

Season Stats

Jordan: 39.3 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 7.5 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg on 55.1 %FG/59.8 %TS with 2.5 topg
Bird: 33.5 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.3 bpg, 0.5 bpg on 59.0 %FG/62.9 %TS with 1.8 topg

Playoffs

86 First Round

Game 1

Jordan: 49/4/2/2/1 (18/36, 13/15) with 5 turnovers
Bird: 30/6/8/3/0 (9/13, 10/13) with 3 turnovers

Celtics win.

Game 2

Jordan: 63/5/6/3/2 (22/41, 19/21) with 4 turnovers
Bird: 36/12/8/1/2 (14/27, 6/7) with 4 turnovers

Celtics win.

Game 3

Jordan: 19/10/9/2/1 (8/18, 2/3) with 5 turnovers
Bird: 19/6/8/1/2 (5/13, 9/10) with 3 turnovers

Celtics win.

Series Stats:

Jordan: 43.7 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 50.5 %FG/58.4 %TS with 4.7 topg
Bird: 28.3 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.3 bpg on 52.8 %FG/64.2 %TS with 3.3 topg

87 First Round

Game 1

Jordan: 35/6/7/4/2 (12/25, 11/11) with 2 turnovers
Bird: 17/9/13/2/0 (4/7, 7/7) with 1 turnover

Celtics win.

Game 2

Jordan: 42/4/4/0/4 (14/29, 12/14) with 4 turnovers
Bird: 29/7/8/0/0 (9/17, 11/13) with 2 turnovers

Celtics win.

Game 3

Jordan: 30/11/7/2/1 (9/30, 12/14) with 2 turnovers
Bird: 32/14/6/2/1 (11/21, 10/11) with 4 turnovers

Celtics win.

Series Stats

Jordan: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 2.3 bpg on 41.7 %FG/52.9 %TS with 2.7 topg
Bird: 26.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 9.0 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.3 bpg on 53.3 %FG/66.5 %TS with 2.3 topg

[clipps]

So prime Bird was better than 2nd/3rd year Jordan? No way.

[Cyrus334]

I dont know about Magic but Bird was better than Jordan during the mid-late 80's because Jordan was still developing while Bird was at his apex. We never saw prime Jordan vs prime Bird but just comparing what each did at their apex, I can't see how you can say Bird was better. We're not just talking about offense here people, basketball's a two way sport.

[tontoz]

So prime Bird was better than 2nd/3rd year Jordan? No way.

Jordan missed most of his 2nd season FYI.

Statistically 3rd year Jordan has a case as being better than prime Bird but certainly wasn't seen as better at the time. We didn't have access to all these advance stats that are available today. No internet back then lol.

[Axe]

I'm old enough to have watched all three. The Celtics and Lakers were a better team than the Bulls and they remained better the rest of the decade. But by 1988, Jordan was the best player in the league, offensively and defensively better than both Bird an Magic. There is no player in the history of the game that if you could some how have plucked them out of their era and put them on the 80's Bulls, they're still not beating those Lakers or Celtics.
Best player yet couldn't even overcome his 1-9 stain mark back then until he got his own sidekick. Yikes.

[baudkarma]

I think most of us who were around back then saw that MJ was as physically talented as Bird and Magic. And he matched them in competitiveness as well. The real question was whether he be as successful as those two, because early in his career MJ had a real problem with trusting his teammates, especially in big games. It wasn't until the '91 finals against the Lakers that MJ finally accepted that he couldn't do it all himself.

[bizil]

Here's the package MJ brought to the league:

Ultimate freak athlete
Great passer for his position
Great rebounder for his position
Great defender
Inside three point line as great a scoring skillset as anybody
LEGIT could play and defend PG, SG, and SF at great levels

Once MJ got rolling in the league, this is the package he brought to the table. He was a freak athlete at 6'6 like Doc. Had the polished scoring skillset of Gervin. And had the all around game of the Wests, Oscars, and Hondos. Plus he was ultra efficient scoring on top of it. As great as Bird and Magic are, they couldn't DOMINATE THE GAME in as many ways as MJ. Bird and Magic were BETTER than Dr. J because they were more complete players.

But MJ was THE FREAK ATHLETE that was ALSO the perfect all around player. So Bird and Magic couldn't top that! MJ was getting Bron-esque 30PPG-8RPG-8 APG in a season. That's where he was taking his game. The evolution of Pippen meant Pip could be the dominant floor game guy. Because Pip's floor game was as good as any SF to ever play the game at that point. So MJ didn't need to average 8 dimes and 8 boards at night! Magic and Bird are still in the top 5 perimeter players of all time with MJ, Bron, and Mamba! So it's not like it's a DISS to say MJ passed them by! Hell they would tell you that THEMSELVES!!

[tontoz]

Bird led the league in VORP ( high was 8.7) and BPM (high 8.8) for 4 straight years. He led the league in win shares ( high 15.8) 2 straight years. Jordan stopped his streak at the top.

In his 3rd season Jordan's numbers were:

VORP 10.6
BPM 10.8
Win shares 16.9

[beasted]

Yes, Jordan was even from the early days seen as eventually being a far and away a better individual player. Bird and Magic have both alluded to this after their playing days. The Celtics were also the better team far and away and this context needs to be understood judging Bird's stats. Both offensively and especially defensively they were a great team. Nobody has played on more stacked teams than Bird.

People apply these GOAT standards only to Jordan. Nobody is comparing Lebron's early stats to Duncan, Kobe prime stats.

[bizil]

Bird led the league in VORP ( high was 8.7) and BPM (high 8.8) for 4 straight years. He led the league in win shares ( high 15.8) 2 straight years. Jordan stopped his streak at the top.

In his 3rd season Jordan's numbers were:

VORP 10.6
BPM 10.8
Win shares 16.9

Yes indeed! In MJ's rookie year, Bird and Magic were still better players. EVEN THOUGH in MJ's rookie year, he was already the top SG on the planet. And hell a top three player in the world. Doc and Kareem were past their prime. Moses was still in his prime but a bit past his peak. And Isiah was epic, but he was only 6'1. Zeke was better than ALL the perimeter guys at this point EXCEPT Magic, Bird, and MJ. For a 6'1 player to be that high in the pecking order says a lot.

But in MJ's 3rd season, he was at God level as a player. Hands down the best player on the planet WHILE Bird and Magic were still in their primes. The CRAZY THING is Bobby Knight while coaching MJ in the Olympics said MJ was the BEST PLAYER he ever saw! But nobody really took Knight seriously in the media. And most fans didn't either quite frankly. The fact MJ OVERTOOK Bird and Magic when they were at the peaks of their game says it all!