Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #2

[dankok8]

List:

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - VOTING NOW

This is the player pool:

https://i.postimg.cc/VN7jY7Zz/Top-10-Candidates.jpg

For a full player pool see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron

[coastalmarker99]

LeBron

Wilt

[dankok8]

I still vote for Bill Russell. Maybe I can be swayed like I said in the first thread as well but I doubt it. Russell's credentials are so strong that I consider him co-GOAT with Jordan.

All votes for players who didn't win the #1 vote carry over to the #2 vote. I presume that whoever they voted for #1 is still their favorite for #2. See below:


Wilt Chamberlain - 3: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle
Bill Russell - 1: Dbrog
Lebron James - 1: 8ball

[L.Kizzle]

I still vote for Bill Russell. Maybe I can be swayed like I said in the first thread as well but I doubt it. Russell's credentials are so strong that I consider him co-GOAT with Jordan.

All votes for players who didn't win the #1 vote carry over to the #2 vote. I presume that whoever they voted for #1 is still their favorite for #2. See below:
Wilt is definitely still my pick.

[Thenameless]

Yes, if Chamberlain isn't #1, then he's still my vote for #2.

[8Ball]

Bron.

[Chick Stern]

Kareem is number 1

[ClipperRevival]

#2

kaj

[Bankaii]

Lebron.

[jstern]

KAJ.

The polls are flawed, because it's more of a popularity contest, with not enough older people and lots of teenagers who started watching a couple of years ago. How can people have an understanding of players who's style they know nothing about, playing in a league that they know nothing about?

[Reggie43]

Bill Russell

[outofstomach]

List:

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - VOTING NOW

This is the player pool:

https://i.postimg.cc/VN7jY7Zz/Top-10-Candidates.jpg

For a full player pool see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.you should’ve done this backwards (starting at #10) to build up more interest

[SaintzFury13]

It's 50/50 between LeBron and Kareem at this point in my eyes. But I'm going to have to go with LeBron.

[RRR3]

LeBron.

[imdaman99]

I know why we do this, it's the offseason. But Lebron's career is not complete. Imagine if he wins a ring with a buncha washed players (including the great washedbrook)? How could I possibly not put him 1st???? But I can't live on ifs and buts. So for now I'll go with _ _ _ _ _ _.

[dankok8]

Not making a new thread yet but this is the current vote tally. It's actually close to a four-way tie with Lebron slightly ahead.

Official Vote Tally

Wilt Chamberlain - 3: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle
Bill Russell - 3: Dbrog, dankok8, Reggie43
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 3: ChickStern, ClipperRevival, jstern
Lebron James - 5: 8ball, SouBeachTalents, Bankaii, SaintzFury13, RRR3

[jlip]

I'll go ahead and contribute. My vote is for Bill Russell.

[dankok8]

Alright let's get some more votes. This race is too close to call!

[8Ball]

That's a pretty good top 5 list actually.

[Overdrive]

Kareem

[SaintzFury13]

I know why we do this, it's the offseason. But Lebron's career is not complete. Imagine if he wins a ring with a buncha washed players (including the great washedbrook)? How could I possibly not put him 1st???? But I can't live on ifs and buts. So for now I'll go with _ _ _ _ _ _.

LeBron can win three more titles with washed up role players. The curse of 2011 and the fact that Jordan was still the better player on both ends will always come back to bite him. Accolades aren't everything.

But I think at this point LeBron pretty much has the number 2 spot secured. Even if it's 50/50 right NOW between him and Kareem for me, I have no doubt in my mind that my shift will change drastically towards LeBron being an undisputed number 2 with no questions asked.

[coastalmarker99]

If Lebron by the time his career is over ended up with 6 or 7 rings and 6 finals MVPs.




To go along with his longevity and insane peak from 2009 to 2014.



He will be considered by the general public as the GOAT over Jordan that I have no doubts about.

[SaintzFury13]

If Lebron by the time his career is over ended up with 6 or 7 rings and 6 finals MVPs.




To go along with his longevity and insane peak from 2009 to 2014.



He will be considered by the general public as the GOAT over Jordan that I have no doubts about.




He already owns the record book when it comes to the playoffs you give him 6 or 7 rings and the discussion is over.

I could care less about how many rings he has. He wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan. I cannot justify any argument that states LeBron was greater simply because he ended up with more championships.

[coastalmarker99]

I could care less about how many rings he has. He wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan. I cannot justify any argument that states LeBron was greater simply because he ended up with more championships.




The GOAT debate in basketball will end up like tennis.



If Lebron has more titles than Jordan and finals MVP'S to go along with destroying Jordan in longevity and having a similar peak to him.



Then the general public will crown Lebron as the GOAT regardless of the fact that he wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan.





Look at Novak Djokovic in tennis nobody wants to crown him as the GOAT over Nadal and Federer.




But once he gets his 21st grand slam in a couple of weeks there will be no arguments you can make against him not being the GOAT of tennis.

[SaintzFury13]

The GOAT debate in basketball will end up like tennis.



If Lebron has more titles than Jordan and finals MVP'S to go along with destroying Jordan in longevity and having a similar peak to him.



Then the general public will crown Lebron as the GOAT regardless of the fact that he wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan.





Look at Novak Djokovic in tennis nobody wants to crown him as the GOAT over Nadal and Federer.




But once he gets his 21st grand slam in a couple of weeks there will be no arguments you can make against him not being the GOAT of tennis.

It's a shame that the debate about who the greatest basketball player of all time won't come down to who the better basketball player was.

[coastalmarker99]

It's a shame that the debate about who the greatest basketball player of all time won't come down to who the better basketball player was.


If that was the case then



Wilt and Lebron would be both the undisputed number one and number two players of all-time as they are the two most talented basketball players ever.

[SaintzFury13]

If that was the case then



Wilt and Lebron would be both the undisputed number one and number two players of all-time as they are the two most talented basketball players ever.

I wouldn't call Wilt the most "talented". He was very skilled, I am not taking that away from him. But his dominance definitely had a lot more to do with his physical attributes and the fact that there simply weren't many people in that time period that could stop him from doing whatever he wanted.

If we are strictly talking most dominant, then yes, Wilt and LeBron would be number 1 and 2.

[Honor Boost]

Lebron does not deserve numero uno but he can place himself on numero dos and such it votes Lebron it is. Jordan is #numero uno because he has the most finals mvps and Lebron has second most so give him numero dos.

[Magic Is Magic]

I would have placed my vote for LeBron at #1 had I gotten here sooner but #2 is really just as good. My reasoning for LeBron being #1/#2 can be summed up as LeBron being the one to break the game of basketball.

The National Basketball Association has a rich history of legends, rivalries, accolades and above all, superstar talent. Fans who grew up watching Jerry West, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan, have two things in common, a love for their heroes and a desire to see their heroes do better than anyone else. Having collected 11 rings, Celtic legend Bill Russell sits atop the championship mountain, but players like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Larry Bird were some of the first to show the world that, while championship totals are impressive and undoubtedly important, they are not the end all, be all, to ranking a player in totality. Another player to push this notion further into the forefront was the great Michael Jordan.

What if you could have a player win multiple championships while also holding all of the playoff records in existence? This is what Michael Jordan did. He was the first to break the game of basketball. Russell had tallied the championships but he didn’t have the impressive stats to compliment his rings. Kareem had the stats but he only ended up with 2 Finals MVPs. Michael? He collected 6 FMVPs and all the playoff records you could imagine. If you were a fan of MJ in the late 90's you could not imagine that anyone would pass MJ in playoff win shares, game winners, steals, elimination game ppg, most 30.0 playoff PERs through the Finals, point scored, and the list goes on. But then LeBron James happened and he broke the game of basketball.

LeBron found a way to lead his team in Finals scoring for 9 years, a feat that no other legend has come close to. Jordan sits in the #2 spot having done this 6 times. Kareem and Shaq are tied for third place with 5 a piece. Even the great 11x champion Bill Russell, a defensive minded player, only led his team in Finals scoring 3 times. No one would have believed you if back in 2004 you said there would be a player that would pass Jordan in any of these stats. Most 30.0 PER playoff runs? Not a chance, MJ is the King of PER. Game winners? NOPE. Michael is the clutch god. Points? Are you kidding me?! MJ passed Kareem by over 200 and Kareem made 10 Finals and 18 playoffs.

But then the unbelievable happened. All of the records that were once thought to be unbreakable were broken. And with it, all of the memories and nostalgia tied to every broken record also meant bruised egos for many fans. A wounded spirit. A new but warped perception of reality. How could someone pass my legend? How could a player ever do the unthinkable? What happened?

LeBron James happened. And he broke the game of basketball.

[warriorfan]

Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.

[Magic Is Magic]

Official Vote Tally

Wilt Chamberlain - 4: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle, warriorfan
Bill Russell - 4: Dbrog, dankok8, Reggie43, jlipp
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 4: ChickStern, ClipperRevival, jstern, Overdrive
Lebron James - 7: 8ball, SouBeachTalents, Bankaii, SaintzFury13, RRR3, Honor Boost, Magic is Magic

[tpols]

Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasties although he came close.

[coastalmarker99]

Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasities although he came close.




Wilt was a total of 10 ****ing points away from having 6 to 7 rings despite playing on below-average teams for most of his career.


Look at this stat.



Here are stats on how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.


Small sample size….. but so far

46 possessions without wilt.. 37 FGA, 13 FGM, 7 turnovers (1 OREB by Thurmond with score)

38 possessions with wilt, 35 FGA, 21 FGM, (1 OREB by wilt with score)

Very small sample size, so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.

Plays like this where Guy Rodgers ignores Wilt down low with a 1 on 1 matchup really highlights the poor decision making and lack of offensive structure that Wilt had to deal with for most of his prime.


https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913




Here Wilt gets a great post position on Russell but it quickly goes to waste as Wayne Hightower launches a contested outside shot:

https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347

[coastalmarker99]

Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasties although he came close.

Here are examples of Wilt getting let down by his teammates in the playoffs.


Game 1, 1960 ECF vs Boston

Wilt scores 42 points and grabs 29 rebounds and disses out 1 assist on 17-35 FG/FGA.

While Russell had 19 points and 30 rebounds plus 1 assist on 9-17 shooting

The difference was for this game

Was that Woody Sauldsberry went 3-21 and Wilt's teammates shoot 30% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 6 games.


Game 1, 1961 ECSF vs Syracuse

Wilts teammates shoot 28.8% from the field after Wilt drops 46 and 32

Wilts teammates shot 33.2% from the field this series (8.3% below league average) and they were swept


Game 1, 1962 ECF vs Boston

Wilt scores 33 points and grabs 31 rebounds and disses out 3 assists on 13-25 FG/FGA.

While Russell had 16 points and 30 rebounds plus 4 assists on 7-22 shooting

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilts teammates shoot 23.5% from the field.


Game 4, 1964 Finals vs Boston

Wilt scores 27 points and grabs 38 rebounds on 52 percent shooting.

While Russell had 8 points and 19 rebounds plus 3 assists on 33 percent shooting.

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 27.7% from the field in a 3 point loss.


Game 1 1965 ECF

Wilt scores 33 points and blocked 11 shots while grabbing 31 rebounds on 13-25 FG/FGA or 63 TS%

While Russell had 16 points and 32 rebounds on 7-22 shooting.

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 23.5% from the field in a 10 point loss.


Game 5 1966 ECF.

Wilt scores 46 points and grabbed 34 rebounds along with 8 blocks on 19-34 FG/FGA

While Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds plus 6 assists on 4-7 FG/FGA

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 30.8% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 5 games.

[Magic Is Magic]

Wilt was a total of 10 ****ing points away from having 6 to 7 rings despite playing on below-average teams for most of his career.


Look at this stat.



Here are stats on how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.


Small sample size….. but so far

46 possessions without wilt.. 37 FGA, 13 FGM, 7 turnovers (1 OREB by Thurmond with score)

38 possessions with wilt, 35 FGA, 21 FGM, (1 OREB by wilt with score)

Very small sample size, so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.

Plays like this where Guy Rodgers ignores Wilt down low with a 1 on 1 matchup really highlights the poor decision making and lack of offensive structure that Wilt had to deal with for most of his prime.

https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status...66332579110913

Here Wilt gets a great post position on Russell but it quickly goes to waste as Wayne Hightower launches a contested outside shot:

https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status...66377193844739

Hi coastal m,

Good post but I wanted to point out that the two Twitter links did not work for me. I wanted to see them too. Oh well.

[coastalmarker99]

Hi coastal m,

Good post but I wanted to point out that the two Twitter links did not work for me. I wanted to see them too. Oh well.

HI Magic is Magic

Here you go it should work now.


https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913


https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347

[Magic Is Magic]

HI Magic is Magic

Here you go it should work now.


https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913


https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347

Wilt's length really is incredibly a thing to marvel and yes he should have given that ball right back to Wilt.

[coastalmarker99]

Here are 40 games that Wilt played in the postseason that he had a triple-double in

3/18/62... 28 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blks

3/22/62... 56 pts, 35 rebs, 12 blks Game 5 of 5 game series

4/5/62... 22 pts, 22 rebs, 14 blks Game 7

3/4/64... 28 pts, 27 rebs, 15 blks

4/16/64... 39 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks. Game 7

3/26/65... 30 pts, 15 rebs, 10 asts

3/31/65... 38 pts, 26 rebs, 10 blks Clincher

4/4/65.... 33 pts, 31 rebs, 11 blks

4/13/65... 30 pts, 26 rebs, 13 blks

4/15/65... 30 pts, 32 rebs, 12 blks Game 7

3/22/67... 37 pts, 27 rebs, 11 asts

3/24/67... 16 pts, 30 rebs, 19 asts

3/31/67... 24 pts, 32 rebs, 13 asts, 12 blks (quad-double)

4/2/67... 15 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks

4/9/67.... 20 pts, 22 rebs, 10 asts

4/11/67...29 pts, 36 rebs, 13 asts Clincher

4/14/67... 16 pts, 33 rebs, 10 asts

4/16/67... 10 pts, 38 rebs, 10 asts, 10 blks (quad-double)

3/22/68... 37 pts 29 rebs 7 asts 10 blks

3/23/68 24 pts 17 rebs 8 asts 12 blks

3/27/68 18 pts 24 rebs 8 asts 11 blks

3/31/68 26 pts 21 rebs 7 asts 14 blks

4/1/68 25 pts 27 rebs 3 asts 10 blks

4/19/68 14 pts 34 rebs 5 asts 12 blks Game 7

4/5/69... 11 pts, 25 rebs, 15 blks

4/13/69... 23 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks

4/17/69... 25 pts, 19 rebs, 13 blks

4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks

4/20/69... 16 pts, 29 rebs, 16 blks 4/23/69... 15 pts, 23 rebs, 14 blks

5/5/69... 18 pts, 27 rebs, 10 blks Game 7

4/5/70.... 36 pts, 14 rebs, 10 blks

4/7/70.... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 asts, 11 blks (quad-double)

4/9/70.... 30 pts, 27 rebs, 12 blks Game 7

4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks Clincher

3/26/71... 26 pts, 20 rebs, 10 blks

3/30/71... 12 pts, 23 rebs, 10 blks

4/18/72... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 blks

4/22/72... 20 pts, 24 rebs, 10 blks Clincher (and against KAJ)

5/7/72.... 24 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks * (CavsFTW with 8) Clincher

4/8/73... 11 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks



Wilt had eight

20-20 post-seasons?


Wilt had six

25-20 post-seasons


Wilt had four

30-20 post-seasons


Wilt had three

30-25 post-seasons


Wilt had one

35-25 post-season


Narrowing it down even further:


Wilt had six

28-20 post-seasons


Wilt had five

28-25 post-seasons


Wilt had one

28-30 post-season

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.



What to know something interesting.


1-7 Wilt's PO-series record vs. Celtics.



1-22 every other team's PO record vs. Celtics from 1957 to 1969.


and that one single win came when Russell was injured in the 1958 finals.


So that could be 23 and 0 against every other team besides Wilt's 1967 76ers for the Celtics.


Wilt finished his career with an 80 percent winning percentage against non-Celtic teams in the playoffs.


Wilt unfortunately just didn't have any luck in the playoffs.


Injuries and lucky last-second plays by the Celtics or Knicks repeatedly foiled Wilt's chances at titles.


Had Wilt just had better luck in his career


Wilt could have seriously won 5 to 8 championships,



1962 - Gola who is arguably the Warriors 2nd best player is injured against Boston and they lose in Game 7 by 2 points of a Sam Jones game-winner.

1965 - Costello is injured against Boston and they lose in Game 7 by 1 point due to Havlicek stealing the ball.

1968 - Cunningham out and basically the entire 76ers team including Wilt all played through injuries otherwise they would have easily steamrolled their way to back to back titles.

1969 - West played with a hamstring and calf injury which limited his ability to defend how he normally does. Wilt gets injured late and they lose in Game 7 by 2 points

1970 - Happy Hairston who was arguably the 3rd most important player after Wilt/West missed the playoffs and they lose in Game 7.

1973 - Hairston out once again, West is playing with another hamstring injury and West also mentions in his autobiography that McMillan was playing through an injury as well.

That 1973 Lakers team was clearly beaten up pretty bad and they lost a lot of close Finals games.



Wilt is most likely the unluckiest player in the top ten of all time.



As if you redo his career over then he most likely wins 4 to 5 rings instead of the 2 rings that he ended up with.



As Mendy Rudolph, phantom fouls, incredibly lucky bounces...things went Boston's way during that era that were unbelievable.

[coastalmarker99]

The most confusing thing about LeBron to me is that his teams have never truly had an all-time dominant playoff run en route to a title.

Despite the fact that he has four titles.


Lebron in 2012 faced Elimination against an old Celtics team that had him on the ropes.


Lebron in 2013 went seven games vs the Pacers in the ECF and was a Ray Allen miracle shot from losing to the Spurs in six games in the finals.


Lebron in 2016 went seven games vs the Warriors and was a Green suspension away from losing in 5 games.


Lebron in 2020 went six games with an injured Miami team.


That featured a guy as their superstar in Jimmy who got utterly shut down in the playoffs this year and was outplayed by ****ing Bryn Forbes



We know that Lebron has played on Super teams since 2010 outside of 2018 and 2019.



And one could make the case that if you change only two plays in Lebron's career that he would have a 2 and 8 record in the NBA finals.


While Wilt is the unluckiest player in the top ten of all time.



I have to say that Lebron is one of the luckiest players in the top ten of all time.

[SouBeachTalents]

I have to say that Lebron is one of the luckiest players in the top ten of all time.
Absolutely ridiculous, and not even close to being true. Spent the first 7 years of his career on a horribly run franchise, lost both Love AND Kyrie in the 2015 Finals, lost 2 potential titles when Durant signed with Golden State, then had AD get injured mid series this year.

He lost 3 Finals averaging 36/13/9, 34/12/10 & 34/9/10, then another series averaging 39/8/8. Sorry, "one of the luckiest players" don't have so many historically great series & playoff runs end without titles.

The luckiest players in the top 10 imo are Russell, Jordan & Kobe (if you have him there). Magic for sure would be included if not for the circumstances that ended his career.

[coastalmarker99]

Absolutely ridiculous, and not even close to being true. Spent the first 7 years of his career on a horribly run franchise, lost both Love AND Kyrie in the 2015 Finals, lost 2 potential titles when Durant signed with Golden State, then had AD get injured mid series this year.

He lost 3 Finals averaging 36/13/9, 34/12/10 & 34/9/10, then another series averaging 39/8/8. Sorry, "one of the luckiest players" don't have so many historically great series & playoff runs end without titles.

The luckiest players in the top 10 imo are Russell, Jordan & Kobe (if you have him there). Magic for sure would be included if not for the circumstances that ended his career.



That's true my bad I take that back.

[warriorfan]

Absolutely ridiculous, and not even close to being true. Spent the first 7 years of his career on a horribly run franchise, lost both Love AND Kyrie in the 2015 Finals, lost 2 potential titles when Durant signed with Golden State, then had AD get injured mid series this year.

He lost 3 Finals averaging 36/13/9, 34/12/10 & 34/9/10, then another series averaging 39/8/8. Sorry, "one of the luckiest players" don't have so many historically great series & playoff runs end without titles.

The luckiest players in the top 10 imo are Russell, Jordan & Kobe (if you have him there). Magic for sure would be included if not for the circumstances that ended his career.

Well if you are going to say he was unlucky with having teammate injuries…he’s gonna have inflated counting stats. You didn’t mention fg% either. So he is gonna have a tougher time winning but he’s gonna put up better stats when he’s team is injured. You are trying to play it both ways a little there. 2016 he was shut down before all of golden state’s best defenders got taken out of the series. 2017 and beyond he literally stopped playing defense all together and was stat padding quite a bit. They are great numbers but we still need to apply context to them.

[1987_Lakers]

Gotta say, I'm surprised at all the love Wilt has gotten so far. I vote LeBron.

[Ryoka Narusawa]

Gotta say, I'm surprised at all the love Wilt has gotten so far. I vote LeBron.

Gotta say I agree #2 is LeBron at this stage and the list is solid so far

#1Jordan
#2 LeBron
#3 Kareem ( he will win next slot @ #3 )

[SaintzFury13]

Well if you are going to say he was unlucky with having teammate injuries…he’s gonna have inflated counting stats. You didn’t mention fg% either. So he is gonna have a tougher time winning but he’s gonna put up better stats when he’s team is injured. You are trying to play it both ways a little there. 2016 he was shut down before all of golden state’s best defenders got taken out of the series. 2017 and beyond he literally stopped playing defense all together and was stat padding quite a bit. They are great numbers but we still need to apply context to them.

Iggy was injured that entire finals series in 2016. Draymond was only out for one game. And Bogut, while a key player defensively, wasn't playing long enough to be a key reason for LeBron's struggles (even though it did help LeBron have better starts to the games). Guys like Thompson and Barnes were still there the entire series and fully healthy. One of the main reasons LeBron was able to have back to back 40 point performances is due to his jump shot coming back in form. Before game 5 he was struggling to consistently hit his jumper and had to rely more on scoring inside. That was difficult to do against Golden State. For games 5 and 6, LeBron was almost impossible to guard, it didn't really matter who you were.

And I don't know where you're getting this idea that LeBron was shut down before game 5 (I'm assuming the first four games are what you're referring to). LeBron's only underwhelming performances scoring wise were in the first two games of that series. After that, LeBron didn't really have much difficulty scoring on a decent efficiency. Hell, game 7 was arguably his worst performance of the series in terms of efficiency, but he was dominant in other aspects of the game so he easily made up for it.

[SaintzFury13]

Here are 40 games that Wilt played in the postseason that he had a triple-double in

3/18/62... 28 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blks

3/22/62... 56 pts, 35 rebs, 12 blks Game 5 of 5 game series

4/5/62... 22 pts, 22 rebs, 14 blks Game 7

3/4/64... 28 pts, 27 rebs, 15 blks

4/16/64... 39 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks. Game 7

3/26/65... 30 pts, 15 rebs, 10 asts

3/31/65... 38 pts, 26 rebs, 10 blks Clincher

4/4/65.... 33 pts, 31 rebs, 11 blks

4/13/65... 30 pts, 26 rebs, 13 blks

4/15/65... 30 pts, 32 rebs, 12 blks Game 7

3/22/67... 37 pts, 27 rebs, 11 asts

3/24/67... 16 pts, 30 rebs, 19 asts

3/31/67... 24 pts, 32 rebs, 13 asts, 12 blks (quad-double)

4/2/67... 15 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks

4/9/67.... 20 pts, 22 rebs, 10 asts

4/11/67...29 pts, 36 rebs, 13 asts Clincher

4/14/67... 16 pts, 33 rebs, 10 asts

4/16/67... 10 pts, 38 rebs, 10 asts, 10 blks (quad-double)

3/22/68... 37 pts 29 rebs 7 asts 10 blks

3/23/68 24 pts 17 rebs 8 asts 12 blks

3/27/68 18 pts 24 rebs 8 asts 11 blks

3/31/68 26 pts 21 rebs 7 asts 14 blks

4/1/68 25 pts 27 rebs 3 asts 10 blks

4/19/68 14 pts 34 rebs 5 asts 12 blks Game 7

4/5/69... 11 pts, 25 rebs, 15 blks

4/13/69... 23 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks

4/17/69... 25 pts, 19 rebs, 13 blks

4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks

4/20/69... 16 pts, 29 rebs, 16 blks 4/23/69... 15 pts, 23 rebs, 14 blks

5/5/69... 18 pts, 27 rebs, 10 blks Game 7

4/5/70.... 36 pts, 14 rebs, 10 blks

4/7/70.... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 asts, 11 blks (quad-double)

4/9/70.... 30 pts, 27 rebs, 12 blks Game 7

4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks Clincher

3/26/71... 26 pts, 20 rebs, 10 blks

3/30/71... 12 pts, 23 rebs, 10 blks

4/18/72... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 blks

4/22/72... 20 pts, 24 rebs, 10 blks Clincher (and against KAJ)

5/7/72.... 24 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks * (CavsFTW with 8) Clincher

4/8/73... 11 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks



Wilt had eight

20-20 post-seasons?


Wilt had six

25-20 post-seasons


Wilt had four

30-20 post-seasons


Wilt had three

30-25 post-seasons


Wilt had one

35-25 post-season


Narrowing it down even further:


Wilt had six

28-20 post-seasons


Wilt had five

28-25 post-seasons


Wilt had one

28-30 post-season

No one is ignoring the numbers Wilt put up. I just don't see how they are justifiable enough to put him over LeBron here. Again, Wilt's numbers come with a bit of an asterisk. He played in an era where only a (literally) couple of people were capable of stopping him. He had physical attributes that would be considered out of this world in today's NBA, and even then there's a lot more people now who could at least attempt to give Wilt fits. Back then there was basically nothing you could do to stop Wilt from doing whatever he wanted.

Let's compare that to LeBron for a second. LeBron's stats are pretty insane when you look at them career wise. But tell me: what do you think LeBron's numbers would look like if he actually gave a shit about stats? Let's say for the sake of argument that he spent his entire career being a legitimate stat hound like, say, Russell Westbrook. Could you even begin to fathom what LeBron's numbers would look like? Remember in the 2020 season, when he FINALLY took on the role of being not only the main playmaker, but the main distributor as well? There were no ball sharing responsibilities in the starting line up. He was going to be the PG, period. The result was him leading the league in assists and having the average be in the double digits for the first time in his career. Imagine if he did that all the time? Imagine if he completely disregarded team defense and constantly gambled on defense like he did in his second season in the league (where he averaged a career high 2.2 SPG). Remember when we saw an angry and determined LeBron dismantle the Celtics in game 6 of the 2012 playoffs? He scored 45 points on 70% shooting from the field. The crazy thing about this is that he could have easily scored 50 if he wanted to. He already had 41 points by the end of the third quarter. Remember game 1 of the 2018 NBA Finals where he took it upon himself to be the leading scorer and do everything he can to give his team a chance to win? Dropped 51 points on one of the most stacked teams of all time and almost pulled it off. Imagine if LeBron decided he wanted to be the main scorer at a much more frequent rate? Keep in mind, he has two full seasons of averaging 30 PPG under his belt where he DIDN'T have this mentality. The man was literally so good that he won a scoring title without even trying.

Imagine if he did that for his entire career.

The numbers obviously would not be anywhere close to Wilts, but then again, no one's would. But my point is that as impressive as Wilt's numbers are, LeBron's to me stand out a lot more, because he spent mostly his entire career still playing a relatively passive role compared to the rest of the top ten all time greats. Now just imagine if he wasn't as passive as he was. I don't think any of us can comprehend just how good his career numbers would be.

[ELITEpower23]

LeBron all the way. He has like ten votes now, onto #3 OP.

[HoopsNY]

No one is ignoring the numbers Wilt put up. I just don't see how they are justifiable enough to put him over LeBron here. Again, Wilt's numbers come with a bit of an asterisk. He played in an era where only a (literally) couple of people were capable of stopping him. He had physical attributes that would be considered out of this world in today's NBA, and even then there's a lot more people now who could at least attempt to give Wilt fits. Back then there was basically nothing you could do to stop Wilt from doing whatever he wanted.

Let's compare that to LeBron for a second. LeBron's stats are pretty insane when you look at them career wise. But tell me: what do you think LeBron's numbers would look like if he actually gave a shit about stats? Let's say for the sake of argument that he spent his entire career being a legitimate stat hound like, say, Russell Westbrook. Could you even begin to fathom what LeBron's numbers would look like? Remember in the 2020 season, when he FINALLY took on the role of being not only the main playmaker, but the main distributor as well? There were no ball sharing responsibilities in the starting line up. He was going to be the PG, period. The result was him leading the league in assists and having the average be in the double digits for the first time in his career. Imagine if he did that all the time? Imagine if he completely disregarded team defense and constantly gambled on defense like he did in his second season in the league (where he averaged a career high 2.2 SPG). Remember when we saw an angry and determined LeBron dismantle the Celtics in game 6 of the 2012 playoffs? He scored 45 points on 70% shooting from the field. The crazy thing about this is that he could have easily scored 50 if he wanted to. He already had 41 points by the end of the third quarter. Remember game 1 of the 2018 NBA Finals where he took it upon himself to be the leading scorer and do everything he can to give his team a chance to win? Dropped 51 points on one of the most stacked teams of all time and almost pulled it off. Imagine if LeBron decided he wanted to be the main scorer at a much more frequent rate? Keep in mind, he has two full seasons of averaging 30 PPG under his belt where he DIDN'T have this mentality. The man was literally so good that he won a scoring title without even trying.

Imagine if he did that for his entire career.

The numbers obviously would not be anywhere close to Wilts, but then again, no one's would. But my point is that as impressive as Wilt's numbers are, LeBron's to me stand out a lot more, because he spent mostly his entire career still playing a relatively passive role compared to the rest of the top ten all time greats. Now just imagine if he wasn't as passive as he was. I don't think any of us can comprehend just how good his career numbers would be.

LeBron is no stranger to stat-padding, and he's on record that he intends to do just that, as early as 2013 with Miami. He made it known, he's trying to get every point, rebound, and assist, and he wasn't going to come out until he gets whatever his mark was. I mean, he does this in the playoffs, too.

[coastalmarker99]

LeBron is no stranger to stat-padding, and he's on record that he intends to do just that, as early as 2013 with Miami. He made it known, he's trying to get every point, rebound, and assist, and he wasn't going to come out until he gets whatever his mark was. I mean, he does this in the playoffs, too.

:applause:


We know that Lebron is obsessed with his stats and records such as his 10 point game streak.

[coastalmarker99]

No one is ignoring the numbers Wilt put up. I just don't see how they are justifiable enough to put him over LeBron here. Again, Wilt's numbers come with a bit of an asterisk. He played in an era where only a (literally) couple of people were capable of stopping him. He had physical attributes that would be considered out of this world in today's NBA, and even then there's a lot more people now who could at least attempt to give Wilt fits. Back then there was basically nothing you could do to stop Wilt from doing whatever he wanted.


Let's compare that to LeBron for a second. LeBron's stats are pretty insane when you look at them career-wise. But tell me: what do you think LeBron's numbers would look like if he actually gave a shit about stats? Let's say for the sake of argument that he spent his entire career being a legitimate stat hound-like, say, Russell Westbrook.



Could you even begin to fathom what LeBron's numbers would look like? Remember in the 2020 season, when he FINALLY took on the role of being not only the main playmaker but the main distributor as well? There were no ball sharing responsibilities in the starting lineup.


He was going to be the PG, period. The result was him leading the league in assists and having the average be in the double digits for the first time in his career. Imagine if he did that all the time?


Imagine if he completely disregarded team defence and constantly gambled on defence as he did in his second season in the league (where he averaged a career-high 2.2 SPG).


Remember when we saw an angry and determined LeBron dismantle the Celtics in game 6 of the 2012 playoffs? He scored 45 points on 70% shooting from the field.



The crazy thing about this is that he could have easily scored 50 if he wanted to.

He already had 41 points by the end of the third quarter. Remember game 1 of the 2018 NBA Finals where he took it upon himself to be the leading scorer and do everything he can to give his team a chance to win? Dropped 51 points on one of the most stacked teams of all time and almost pulled it off.

Imagine if LeBron decided he wanted to be the main scorer at a much more frequent rate? Keep in mind, he has two full seasons of averaging 30 PPG under his belt where he DIDN'T have this mentality. The man was literally so good that he won a scoring title without even trying.

Imagine if he did that for his entire career.

The numbers obviously would not be anywhere close to Wilts, but then again, no one's would. But my point is that as impressive as Wilt's numbers are, LeBron's to me stand out a lot more, because he spent mostly his entire career still playing a relatively passive role compared to the rest of the top ten all time greats. Now just imagine if he wasn't as passive as he was. I don't think any of us can comprehend just how good his career numbers would be.





Brian Scalabrine says LeBron “Stat Pads”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idjY85oAR2I



Lebron says check my stats.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peje347EHOk

[SaintzFury13]

LeBron is no stranger to stat-padding, and he's on record that he intends to do just that, as early as 2013 with Miami. He made it known, he's trying to get every point, rebound, and assist, and he wasn't going to come out until he gets whatever his mark was. I mean, he does this in the playoffs, too.

You can literally tell by the way that he plays that he doesn't stat pad on a regular basis. He's stated that he does it before, but you can tell which games he does and which ones he doesn't. And in the ones that he does? It happens very, VERY rarely.

[SaintzFury13]

:applause:


We know that Lebron is obsessed with his stats and records such as his 10 point game streak.

If LeBron cared that much about stats and accolades he would have more all defensive team selections. He would have been the scoring champion more than once. He would have led the league in assists a long time ago. He could really care less about them. Anyone who regularly watches him knows that.

[HoopsNY]

You can literally tell by the way that he plays that he doesn't stat pad on a regular basis. He's stated that he does it before, but you can tell which games he does and which ones he doesn't. And in the ones that he does? It happens very, VERY rarely.

Is it as extreme as Westbrook? No. But is he pretty adamant about it? Absolutely. I wouldn't say it happens "very very" rarely. If that were the case, it wouldn't be so widely accepted. Here's LeBron on record talking about his triple doubles:


"I was going to stay out there until I got it," James said. "I wasn't going to let this one slip away. I've had too many games where I was one assist, one rebound away. I wasn't coming out."


https://www.espn.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278546

[HoopsNY]

:applause:


We know that Lebron is obsessed with his stats and records such as his 10 point game streak.

Yea this is another blatant example. That was pretty embarrassing. I mean, he looks at his stats as some sort of validation. It's why when he was being questioned about his ability concerning his age, he took to Twitter to praise a third straight triple-double, against the Bulls, lol.

https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2019-11-07-lebron-james-is-the-nbas-best-stat-padder-not-the-nbas-best-player/

It's obvious that his stats are his way of validating his progress, and running up totals (including rings), is the way that he thinks his legacy is validated. That's fine. It is what it is. It's just cringeworthy to see a poster as Saint deny it as if it didn't happen. I mean, IIRC, LeBron stayed in when his team was up by 20+ against GS in the finals to make sure he matched Kyrie's 40. There are just too many examples to mention.

[ELITEpower23]

Is it as extreme as Westbrook? No. But is he pretty adamant about it? Absolutely. I wouldn't say it happens "very very" rarely. If that were the case, it wouldn't be so widely accepted. Here's LeBron on record talking about his triple doubles:



https://www.espn.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278546


You just posted something confirming he does not stat pad because he "let so many slip away." I bet he probably has the most 10+, 10+, 9 games meaning he does NOT go for them. Are you that dense coach?

[SaintzFury13]

Is it as extreme as Westbrook? No. But is he pretty adamant about it? Absolutely. I wouldn't say it happens "very very" rarely. If that were the case, it wouldn't be so widely accepted. Here's LeBron on record talking about his triple doubles:



https://www.espn.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278546

First off, you just gave me an interview where he outright admits that he had many games where was one assist and one rebound away from getting a triple double and he let them go. How does that not prove my point? Second, that's the best proof you have of him being adamant about it? One game? And how many games has LeBron played in his career? And the best you could find me was one game, and the Madison Square Garden games (because it's a well known fact that he went all out whenever he played there back in the first stint with Cleveland and early Miami days). That to me qualifies as "very rarely".

[Manny98]

Poor Laz :oldlol:

Chokerlain isn't even top 5, give it up bud

[coastalmarker99]

Poor Laz :oldlol:

Chokerlain isn't even top 5, give it up bud



Wilt usually for the past 50 years has been ranked as a top 5 player of all-time.


AP Basketball Player of the Century (1999)

Michael Jordan (49)

Oscar Robertson (44)

Wilt Chamberlain (42)

Selection Panel of Marv Albert, Chick Hearn, Fuzzy Levane, Harvey Pollack, Bill Russell, and Lenny Wilkens





SLAM Magazine Top 75 NBA Players of All-Time (2003)

Michael Jordan

Wilt Chamberlain

Oscar Robertson

Bill Russell

Magic Johnson

Larry Bird

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Jerry West

Shaquille O'Neal

Julius Erving



Slam Magazine's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2009)


1) Michael Jordan

2) Wilt Chamberlain

3) Bill Russell

4) Shaquille O'Neal

5) Oscar Robertson

6) Magic Johnson




Inside Hoops Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2007)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell


Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (June 2014)



1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. LeBron
8. Magic
9. Hakeem
10. Bird



Pro Sports Daily (July 2014)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. LeBron
9. Bird
10. Kobe


ESPN's All-Time Rankings (2016)

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. LeBron James

4. Magic Johnson

5. Wilt Chamberlain




Top 10 NBA Player Peaks of All-Time According to ISH 2012)

#1 Michael Jordan 90-93

#2 Shaquille O'Neal 99-02

#3 Wilt Chamberlain 65-68






Wilt was ranked No. 13 in the ESPN list "Top North American Athletes of the Century" in 1999.



And was also voted the second-best center of all-time by ESPN behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 2007.

[Manny98]

Not anymore maybe in 1980 Wilt was top 5

but now you have LeBron,Kareem, Jordan,Shaq, Duncan, Magic,Bird, Hakeem,Kobe and Russell who are all arguably ahead of Wilt

[coastalmarker99]

Not anymore maybe in 1980 Wilt was top 5

but now you have LeBron,Kareem, Jordan,Shaq, Duncan, Magic,Bird, Hakeem,Kobe and Russell who are all arguably ahead of Wilt


Lebron

Jordan

Kareem


Are usually ranked above Wilt.



But Wilt is usually ranked over everybody else besides Russell sometimes.


ESPN's All-Time Rankings (2016)


5. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Magic Johnson

3. LeBron James

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1. Michael Jordan

[ELITEpower23]

Wilt usually for the past 50 years has been ranked as a top 5 player of all-time.


AP Basketball Player of the Century (1999)

Michael Jordan (49)

Oscar Robertson (44)

Wilt Chamberlain (42)

Selection Panel of Marv Albert, Chick Hearn, Fuzzy Levane, Harvey Pollack, Bill Russell, and Lenny Wilkens





SLAM Magazine Top 75 NBA Players of All-Time (2003)

Michael Jordan

Wilt Chamberlain

Oscar Robertson

Bill Russell

Magic Johnson

Larry Bird

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Jerry West

Shaquille O'Neal

Julius Erving



Slam Magazine's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2009)


1) Michael Jordan

2) Wilt Chamberlain

3) Bill Russell

4) Shaquille O'Neal

5) Oscar Robertson

6) Magic Johnson




Inside Hoops Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2007)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell


Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (June 2014)



1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. LeBron
8. Magic
9. Hakeem
10. Bird



Pro Sports Daily (July 2014)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. LeBron
9. Bird
10. Kobe



Top 10 NBA Player Peaks of All-Time According to ISH 2012)

#1 Michael Jordan 90-93

#2 Shaquille O'Neal 99-02

#3 Wilt Chamberlain 65-68






Wilt was ranked No. 13 in the ESPN list "Top North American Athletes of the Century" in 1999.



And was also voted the second-best center of all-time by ESPN behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 2007.

Wilt is top 5, Manny is just trolling because his super team forming hero KD got cucked once agian. KD needs Curry to win. No Curry, no nothing.

[Manny98]

Lebron

Jordan

Kareem


Are usually ranked above Wilt.



But Wilt is usually ranked over everybody else besides Russell sometimes.


ESPN's All-Time Rankings (2016)


5. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Magic Johnson

3. LeBron James

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1. Michael Jordan
The latest ESPN ranking has him out of the top 5

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

[coastalmarker99]

Not anymore maybe in 1980 Wilt was top 5

but now you have LeBron,Kareem, Jordan,Shaq, Duncan, Magic,Bird, Hakeem,Kobe and Russell who are all arguably ahead of Wilt

RealGM 100

Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2003)

1 Michael Jordan

2 Wilt Chamberlain


Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2006)

1 Wilt Chamberlain

2 Michael Jordan




Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2008)


1 Michael Jordan

2 Kareem

3 Bill Russell

4 Wilt Chamberlain





Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (2011)


1 Jordan

2 Russell

3 Kareem

4 Magic

5 Wilt.



Real GM's Top 50 NBA Players Of All-Time (June 2014)



1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan




Wilt went from being top 3 for the majority of basketball history.




And what's weird is how Russell took his place in many people's top 3s.


As Till the early 90s and mid-2000s the GOAT discussion was Jordan vs Wilt.

[Manny98]

Real GM (2017)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. LeBron
4. Russell
5. Duncan

Real GM 2020

1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Bill Russell
5. Duncan

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Wilt's career highs

Points-100

Rebounds-55

Assists-21

Blocks-30

Steals-11



Love him or hate him Wilt was no doubt the greatest individual player ever, striking fear in his opponent's hearts


Bill Russell even confessed he had nightmares prior to games against Wilt



In these Russell-Wilt discussions, it is fascinating that the players tended to be more favourable to Russell, while the sportswriters, who voted for the All-NBA teams, were definitely pro-Wilt.

In their 10 seasons in the league together, Russell and Wilt each won four MVPs, with Russell coming in 2nd once, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and not in the voting in 67-68.


Meanwhile, Wilt came in 2nd twice, 4th once, 5th once, 7th once, and not at all in the 68-69 balloting.

In the All-NBA voting in their ten years in the league together, Chamberlain waxed Russell by a 7-2 margin, with the other always coming in second, except in the 68-69 season.

As you can see, the voting discrepancies were considerable between the players and the writers. So then, who was more "right?"


Wilt himself brought it up before in his books and I wholeheartedly agree with him...I suspect as Wilt did himself suspect that there was a strong resentment towards Wilt, and his crushing domination of his peers in his 14 seasons in the league.

[Manny98]

Why would Russell fear Chokerlain when was he was 7-1 against him in the playoffs

Nobody cares that you scored 100 in a game when you wet the bed averaging 10ppg in the finals and shoot worse than Ben Simmons from the free throw line :oldlol:

[coastalmarker99]

Why would Russell fear Chokerlain when was he was 7-1 against him in the playoffs

Nobody cares that you scored 100 in a game when you wet the bed averaging 10ppg in the finals and shoot worse than Ben Simmons from the free throw line :oldlol:



Wilt in 1969 was completely misused by van Breda Kolf.


It got so bad that SI ran an article claiming that Wilt could no longer score.



Wilt caught wind of the article, and the night before it hit the news stands Chamberlain exploded with a 60 point game.



He followed that up with a 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting) a few days later.


In fact, over the course of 17 straight games, Wilt crushed the league, averaging 31.1 ppg in that span.


Included were games of 30 on ROY and HOFer Elvin Hayes; 33 on Bob Rule (look him up...he had three straight outstanding seasons before he injured his knee), and even a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest against Russell since his 46 point game in the '66 ECF's.







Of course, Van Breda Kolf, couldn't stand that. He was even quoted with this, "When we pass the ball to Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offence to watch."




So instead he focused the offence entirely through West and a rapidly declining Baylor who was incredibly inefficient.


Yet somehow he took the most shots as he averaged 15.3 PPG on 38.5 percent shooting in the 1969 postseason.




While Wilt was at 13.9 ppg on .54.5 shooting

[Mr. Woke]

Why would Russell fear Chokerlain when was he was 7-1 against him in the playoffs

Nobody cares that you scored 100 in a game when you wet the bed averaging 10ppg in the finals and shoot worse than Ben Simmons from the free throw line :oldlol:

Bill Russell benefited by always playing on either a super-team or super-duper team.

Wilt had less help.

[coastalmarker99]

Why would Russell fear Chokerlain when was he was 7-1 against him in the playoffs

Nobody cares that you scored 100 in a game when you wet the bed averaging 10ppg in the finals and shoot worse than Ben Simmons from the free throw line :oldlol:


I saw a lot of the Lebron-Wade (Bosh) chemistry issues in that first year in LA with West-Wilt (Baylor.)


Lebron was tentative because he just didn't know what his real role was in his first year in Miami. Same with Chamberlain in 1969.





Still despite that in the 1969 NBA Finals, Chamberlain had a total of 3 triple-doubles in that finals series.


GAME 1 15 PTS 23 REBS 4 ASTS 12 BLKS 6-11 FG 3-9 FT

GAME 2 4 PTS 19 REBS 4 ASTS 1-6 FG 2-4 FT

GAME 3 16 PTS 26 REBS 2 ASTS 6-11 FG 4-11 FT

GAME 4 8 PTS 31 REBS 1 ASTS 8 blocks 3-8 FG 2-11 FT

GAME 5 13 PTS 31 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS 5-9 FG 3-8 FT

GAME 6 8 PTS 18 REBS 4 ASTS 1-5 FG 6-10 FT

GAME 7 18 PTS 27 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS 7-8 FG 4-13 FT






Wilt only averaged 10 FG per game in the 1969 finals and in-game 3 of those finals.



He was frozen out of the offence in the fourth quarter as West and Baylor shot a combined 1 from 14 in the fourth quarter.

[Manny98]

Bill Russell benefited by always playing on either a super-team or super-duper team.

Wilt had less help.
Russell never had a teammate as good as Jerry West or Elgin Baylor

https://i.postimg.cc/pVpc6Lyk/145b41a745ccbd6c89bd199fbb244bfd.jpg

[coastalmarker99]

Russell never had a teammate as good as Jerry West or Elgin Baylor

https://i.postimg.cc/pVpc6Lyk/145b41a745ccbd6c89bd199fbb244bfd.jpg


If Elgin Baylor was being evaluated for what he did during the years that Wilt Chamberlain was a Laker, Baylor would not be in the Hall of Fame today.

Out of a total of 328 games in the 4 seasons, he played 132; the last playoff game he played was in 1970.



He was horrific in the 1969 Finals. A true choke job, losing game after game because the coach demanded the Lakers give him the ball.


Baylor in the 1969 finals had four games of 4-18, 2-14 (and 1-5 from the line...in a one-point loss), 4-13, and then a game seven of 8-22 from the field.

In those four games, three of them losses, Baylor shot a combined 18-67, or .26.9!



For the entire series, Baylor shot .39.7. And how about this...Baylor was the worst shooting Laker player on that entire roster in the entire '69 playoffs (.38.5.)



There used to be youtube film of a couple of those Finals games and you can literally hear the bricks he threw clanging against the rim.



The Celtics literally left him alone in the corner for like ....... the entire series.



Go on Youtube sometime and watch the Celtics winning shots in those Finals games.


They are shooting directly over the disastrously bad defence of Elgin Baylor.

Baylor played 2 games in '71, and 9 games in '72. Total. For the season.

Do you seriously want to count Baylor as a great teammate of Wilt Chamberlain?

[Manny98]

I saw a lot of the Lebron-Wade (Bosh) chemistry issues in that first year in LA with West-Wilt (Baylor.)


Lebron was tentative because he just didn't know what his real role was in his first year in Miami. Same with Chamberlain in 1969.





Still despite that in the 1969 NBA Finals, Chamberlain had a total of 3 triple-doubles in that finals series.


GAME 1 15 PTS 23 REBS 4 ASTS 12 BLKS 6-11 FG 3-9 FT

GAME 2 4 PTS 19 REBS 4 ASTS 1-6 FG 2-4 FT

GAME 3 16 PTS 26 REBS 2 ASTS 6-11 FG 4-11 FT

GAME 4 8 PTS 31 REBS 1 ASTS 8 blocks 3-8 FG 2-11 FT

GAME 5 13 PTS 31 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS 5-9 FG 3-8 FT

GAME 6 8 PTS 18 REBS 4 ASTS 1-5 FG 6-10 FT

GAME 7 18 PTS 27 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS 7-8 FG 4-13 FT
You just made my point

Jordan or Lebron would get absolutely torn to shreds they failed to score above 10 points in a finals game let alone 3 times :facepalm

Wilt is a tier below LeBron and MJ, no shame in that still arguably top 10 all time but far from the GOAT

[dankok8]

Official Vote Tally

Lebron James - 9 (8ball, SouBeachTalents, Bankaii, SaintzFury13, RRR3, Honor Boost, Magic is Magic, 1987_Lakers, Ryoka Narusava)
Wilt Chamberlain - 4 (coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle, warriorfan)
Bill Russell - 4 (Dbrog, dankok8, Reggie43, jlip)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 4 (ChickStern, ClipperRevival, jstern, Overdrive)

Lebron won. The #3 thread is now open.

[dankok8]

You just made my point

Jordan or Lebron would get absolutely torn to shreds they failed to score above 10 points in a finals game let alone 3 times :facepalm

Wilt is a tier below LeBron and MJ, no shame in that still arguably top 10 all time but far from the GOAT

To be fair, Wilt was a far more disruptive defensive force. He could change the game just on that end of the floor in an era with little outside shooting.

[coastalmarker99]

To be fair, Wilt was a far more disruptive defensive force. He could change the game just on that end of the floor in an era with little outside shooting.



Wilt was basically getting frozen out of the Lakers offence in the 1969 finals.



I had someone that works at the NBA archives and saw game 3 of the 1969 finals that Wilt only touched the ball six or seven times on offence in the fourth quarter.




As West and Baylor shot a combined 1 from 14 from the field.




When Wilt is from 6 out of 11 from the floor and you refuse to give him the ball in a close game in the fourth quarter.



To go up 3 games to zero on the Celtics it's no wonder the Lakers lost the finals that year.

[coastalmarker99]

To be fair, Wilt was a far more disruptive defensive force. He could change the game just on that end of the floor in an era with little outside shooting.





West and Baylor were being very selfish in the 1969 finals.




West was 9 out of 24 from the floor.


Baylor was 4 out of 18 from the floor.


And Wilt was 6 out of 11 from the floor.


In-game 3


If VBK had told them to feed Wilt in game 3 and give him over 20 shots.


I think the Lakers win the title in 1969.


Of course, Van Breda Kolf wouldn't have stood for that



As he was even quoted with this, "When we pass the ball to Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offence to watch."



Wilt was still capable of being a force on offence in 1969.


As that season over the course of 17 straight games, Wilt crushed the league, averaging 31.1 ppg in that span.


Included were games of 30 on ROY and HOFer Elvin Hayes; 33 on Bob Rule (look him up...he had three straight outstanding seasons before he injured his knee.

And even a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest against Russell since his 46 point game in the '66 ECF's.

[HoopsNY]

You just posted something confirming he does not stat pad because he "let so many slip away." I bet he probably has the most 10+, 10+, 9 games meaning he does NOT go for them. Are you that dense coach?


First off, you just gave me an interview where he outright admits that he had many games where was one assist and one rebound away from getting a triple double and he let them go. How does that not prove my point? Second, that's the best proof you have of him being adamant about it? One game? And how many games has LeBron played in his career? And the best you could find me was one game, and the Madison Square Garden games (because it's a well known fact that he went all out whenever he played there back in the first stint with Cleveland and early Miami days). That to me qualifies as "very rarely".

It doesn't prove your point because post 2012, LeBron has built a reputation of himself as being a stat padder. It's not extreme, but it does exist in the minds of many. You really want me to go fishing for the numerous games where he has done this to prove my point?

Not to mention, current and former players, including his own teammates (IT and Jae Crowder come to mind), who alluded to this point?

So we acknowledge that prior to 2013 he rarely did it, but disregard the fact that he said he will be doing it from 2013 onward? How does that work?

[ELITEpower23]

It doesn't prove your point because post 2012, LeBron has built a reputation of himself as being a stat padder. It's not extreme, but it does exist in the minds of many. You really want me to go fishing for the numerous games where he has done this to prove my point?

Not to mention, current and former players, including his own teammates (IT and Jae Crowder come to mind), who alluded to this point?

So we acknowledge that prior to 2013 he rarely did it, but disregard the fact that he said he will be doing it from 2013 onward? How does that work?

OMG are you saying he went for more points and assists!? What shall we do?

[sdot_thadon]

It doesn't prove your point because post 2012, LeBron has built a reputation of himself as being a stat padder. It's not extreme, but it does exist in the minds of many. You really want me to go fishing for the numerous games where he has done this to prove my point?

Not to mention, current and former players, including his own teammates (IT and Jae Crowder come to mind), who alluded to this point?

So we acknowledge that prior to 2013 he rarely did it, but disregard the fact that he said he will be doing it from 2013 onward? How does that work?
If he did/does go for them? So what? Plenty of other players shoot for statistical achievements across all sports. Shit the guy that got voted no.1 here stat padding unabashedly plenty throughout his career. Lebron went for numbers that helped control a narrative of his play. He's not the 1st or last.