Do people realize how close KD, Kawhi, or Giannis are to being in a debate w/ Lebron?

[3ba11]

1 more title for any of them - that's all it will take for any of them to close the gap and be considered equal or better than Lebron

Lebron's time as a goat candidate will ultimately be brief, just like Kobe's.. 4 chips with super-teams and 1b's (lowest ring quality possible) will be his legacy

[StrongLurk]

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.

[3ba11]

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.


Jordans ring count transcends any era and he beat Magic and Shaq (better than anyone Lebron ever faced)

Ultimately, Lebron's accolades are too weak to fend off his peers, specifically:

4 rings with super-teams and 1b sidekicks (the lowest ring quality possible) < 2 organic rings w/ 50 points from Giannis.... Or KD's three chips (2 over bron), or Kawhi's 3 chips

[Bronbron23]

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.

Not really. If kd and kawhi were in the 90's they'd just be another barkley and malone

[3ba11]

Not really. If kd and kawhi were in the 90's they'd just be another barkley and malone


Magic and Shaq are better than anyone Lebron ever faced or beat, and Jordan destroyed both (ended their tenure with those teams)

[Pip' N Rodman]

They are all 3000-4000 playoff points away from taking the GOAT mantle from LeBron

LeBron is at 7,600, the only way to surpass LeBron is to first surpass MJ whos at 5.900

[8Ball]

Jordans ring count transcends any era and he beat Magic and Shaq (better than anyone Lebron ever faced)

Ultimately, Lebron's accolades are too weak to fend off his peers, specifically:

4 rings with super-teams and 1b sidekicks (the lowest ring quality possible) < 2 organic rings w/ 50 points from Giannis.... Or KD's three chips (2 over bron), or Kawhi's 3 chips

You don't believe any of this.

You said LeBron was better than Jordan back in 2013.

https://i.ibb.co/XCD6m9n/3-Ball-Le-Bron-is-the-GOAT.png


"Bron's better"

[StrongLurk]

Jordans ring count transcends any era and he beat Magic and Shaq (better than anyone Lebron ever faced)

Ultimately, Lebron's accolades are too weak to fend off his peers, specifically:

4 rings with super-teams and 1b sidekicks (the lowest ring quality possible) < 2 organic rings w/ 50 points from Giannis.... Or KD's three chips (2 over bron), or Kawhi's 3 chips

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.

[GrayGoat]

They are all 3000-4000 playoff points away from taking the GOAT mantle from LeBron

LeBron is at 7,600, the only way to surpass LeBron is to first surpass MJ whos at 5.900

Facts :pimp:

[3ba11]

You don't believe any of this.

You said LeBron was better than Jordan back in 2013.

https://i.ibb.co/XCD6m9n/3-Ball-Le-Bron-is-the-GOAT.png


That's me saying what Seadood was thinking. A clever trick used by new posters that weren't part of the original conversation 8 years ago

The mods also deleted and modified my posts so they likely fooled around with those posts too, which are conveniently placed (the thread is a continuation of another thread and started with those posts)

[3ba11]

Crazy man repeats delusion hoping it will be true the 2nd time around


.


fixed

You forget that Lebron and Jordan played against most of the same guys - this isn't like comparing Russell and Jordan..

Old 98' Jordan played better against the best players that Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett)

[StrongLurk]

fixed

You forget that Lebron and Jordan played against most of the same guys - this isn't like comparing Russell and Jordan..

Old 98' Jordan played better against the best players that Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett)

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.

[3ba11]

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.


00's were weaker because Duncan won a bunch of rings and Shaq finally won but only because he had a Jordan as teammate each time.



Magic > KD

Hakeem > Duncan

Shaq > Giannis

Drexler, Isiah, Miller, Payton, Stockton, KJ > Jimmy Butler


^^^ Jordan's comp >>>

[StrongLurk]

00's were weaker because Duncan won a bunch of rings and Shaq finally won but only because he had a Jordan as teammate each time.



Magic > KD

Hakeem > Duncan

Shaq > Giannis

Drexler, Isiah, Miller, Payton, Stockton, KJ > Jimmy Butler


^^^ Jordan's comp >>>

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.

[tpols]

This era is certainly more talented than the 90's, that's for sure.

Not even close. MJ, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Clyde, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Payton Pippen , Penny, Kemp etc. Certainly? How can you even say that with a straight face lol.

And that's not counting that 90s superstars always played. Where as guys sit out or are hurt all the time in this era. 90s playoffs were straight gauntlets. Last year and quite a few others were a total joke. The Bucks won the ECFs without their best player and the Suns were a first round exit without injuries.

Imagine a player like Devin Booker leading a Finals team in the 90s.... :oldlol:

Would never happen.

[ArbitraryWater]

Not even close. MJ, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Clyde, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Payton Pippen , Penny, Kemp etc. Certainly? How can you even say that with a straight face lol.

And that's not counting that 90s superstars always played. Where as guys sit out or are hurt all the time in this era. 90s playoffs were straight gauntlets. Last year and quite a few others were a total joke. The Bucks won the ECFs without their best player and the Suns were a first round exit without injuries.

Imagine a player like Devin Booker leading a Finals team in the 90s.... :oldlol:

Would never happen.

didnt Drexler lead several finals teams?

That didnt have a #2 as good as CP3 and werent as good of a team as the Suns either?


and then those...

*99 Knicks?

[SouBeachTalents]

didnt Drexler lead several finals teams?

That didnt have a #2 as good as CP3 and werent as good of a team as the Suns either?


and then those...

*99 Knicks?
The Nets, Lakers & Clippers (when healthy) absolutely shit on Jordan’s competition in the 90’s :lol The Bucks are honestly as good as any team he faced

[8Ball]

didnt Drexler lead several finals teams?

That didnt have a #2 as good as CP3 and werent as good of a team as the Suns either?


and then those...

*99 Knicks?

Lol Clyde Drexler and 99 Knicks leading a finals team.

[ArbitraryWater]

The Nets, Lakers & Clippers (when healthy) absolutely shit on Jordan’s competition in the 90’s :lol The Bucks are honestly as good as any team he faced

yea tpols is smoking the good stuff

[tpols]

The Nets, Lakers & Clippers (when healthy) absolutely shit on Jordan’s competition in the 90’s :lol The Bucks are honestly as good as any team he faced

Nets without harden and kyrie, Lakers without AD, and Clippers without Kawhi?

Good one mate.

MJs competition actually suited up for the games.

[8Ball]

MJs competition was as good as this finals 2021. Bucks / Phoenix. Never really better than that.

No juggernaut Spurs, no 2012 OKC, no Warriors.

Name me a 90s finals opponent that was better than this year's Milwaukee Bucks.

[j3lademaster]

MJs competition was as good as this finals 2021. Bucks / Phoenix. Never really better than that.

No juggernaut Spurs, no 2012 OKC, no Warriors.

Name me a 90s finals opponent that was better than this year's Milwaukee Bucks.I think only 93 Phoenix is confidently better than the championship Milwaukee team. It’s difficult to put any team in history over the KD warriors squads. That was levels of shameless collusion I’d be lucky to never see again.

[PP34Deuce]

Too much nostalgia. Jordan faced a back 9 of his prime magic. He faced a young shaq who beat him in that one playoff series no one ever talks about.

Today's nba players are given more freedom and are better 1 one 1 players and that's it.

I'd say the SF position has been stacked more than during Jordan's era. Jordan didn't get a chance to truly compete against swingmen that entered the league when he left.

KD will go down as a top 15 all time player. Steph is already top 20 all tim. Kawhi with injuries is still top 30. Giannis has a chance to be top 10 all time.

[coastalmarker99]

I've always said the Bulls never played a team with nearly equal talent except MAYBE the Suns of 1993.

The second best player on the Knicks in the early 90s was Starks...while Scottie was a legit MVP candidate (#3 in 1994).

In 1996, Horace Grant left the Magic and the Bulls added Rodman.

The 1991 Lakers, worthy and scott were injured and Magic announced he had aids like 5 months after the finals.

1998, John Stockton scored 9.7 points per game, less than Jeff Hornacek.

Malone's #1 scoring teammate in that series was Hornacek, compared to Scottie Pippen.

At that time, the Bulls had two top 30 players of all time on their team + an all-star candidate and all-defence team member in Grant, and then a DPOY candidate in Rodman for the second three-peat.

Who exactly in the 90s had the same level of talent? The league was clearly watered down and I really don't see an argument against it.

In the 80s, you had teams with 4 hall of fame candidates or 3 + 1 all-star going at it.

Jordan dominated the 90s because there wasn't a legit challenger.

What exactly changed with the bulls between 1991 and 89 or 90? Did they all magically get better or did the Pistons just age out?

Jordan never beat a team that was better or equal than his.

In 88, 89, 90, the Bulls were beaten when they went up against a better team.

The biggest threats to Jordan in the 90s were, in my opinion:

PHX - Chuck, Johnson, and Majerle + good role players. I love this team and think this is the best squad they faced when fully healthy.

Even here though, Kevin Johnson/Majerle aren't the same calibre of player as Pippen.

And the defensive talent on the bulls with MJ/Pippen/Grant is too much to handle for guys like chambers/Majerle/Ceballos. As much as I like this team, they weren't as good as the bulls.

Knicks - The only team to take them to 7 games in the first threepeat.

But seriously, John Starks was the 2nd best player...the Knicks were nowhere near as talented as the Bulls and tried to box their way to beating them.


For New York fans this era is romanticized beyond belief in their culture, but they didn't have the top-end talent that the Bulls again. Just one legit top 50 talent surrounded by role guys.

Pacers - I love this squad too. The 98 Pacers were fun and I love watching this series on YouTube.

But now we're talking about Reggie Miller/Rik Smits/Dale Davis as the 3 best players on that team...maybe Mark Jackson?

Comparing that to Michael, Scottie, Rodman. By 98, the Bulls were on their last leg, but even then the Bulls had the two best players in this series and probably 3 out of the 4 best.

Shoutout to 92 Cavs and 97 Jazz!

But for real, who exactly did the Bulls play that had the same 1-2 punch? two of the 8-9 best players of the decade on the same team the entire time and always with a 3rd all-star/DPOY candidate.

TL;DR: the Narrative that Jordan destroyed all-time greats in the greatest era of basketball is just myth. The 90s were not as strong as the 80s or the 2010s.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lebron claimed he was the goat for beating the warriors with draymond green missing 1 game.

3 years later, kawhi does the same thing but with Klay missing a game instead. Oh and he had like 20x harder eastern conference path by eliminating Giannis\Embiid\Butler.

So Kawhi has already very clearly passed Lebron for single season playoff run.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I've always said the Bulls never played a team with nearly equal talent except MAYBE the Suns of 1993.

The second best player on the Knicks in the early 90s was Starks...while Scottie was a legit MVP candidate (#3 in 1994).

In 1996, Horace Grant left the Magic and the Bulls added Rodman.

The 1991 Lakers, worthy and scott were injured and Magic announced he had aids like 5 months after the finals.

1998, John Stockton scored 9.7 points per game, less than Jeff Hornacek.

Malone's #1 scoring teammate in that series was Hornacek, compared to Scottie Pippen.

At that time, the Bulls had two top 30 players of all time on their team + an all-star candidate and all-defence team member in Grant, and then a DPOY candidate in Rodman for the second three-peat.

Who exactly in the 90s had the same level of talent? The league was clearly watered down and I really don't see an argument against it.

In the 80s, you had teams with 4 hall of fame candidates or 3 + 1 all-star going at it.

Jordan dominated the 90s because there wasn't a legit challenger.

What exactly changed with the bulls between 1991 and 89 or 90? Did they all magically get better or did the Pistons just age out?

Jordan never beat a team that was better or equal than his.

In 88, 89, 90, the Bulls were beaten when they went up against a better team.

The biggest threats to Jordan in the 90s were, in my opinion:

PHX - Chuck, Johnson, and Majerle + good role players. I love this team and think this is the best squad they faced when fully healthy.

Even here though, Kevin Johnson/Majerle aren't the same calibre of player as Pippen.

And the defensive talent on the bulls with MJ/Pippen/Grant is too much to handle for guys like chambers/Majerle/Ceballos. As much as I like this team, they weren't as good as the bulls.

Knicks - The only team to take them to 7 games in the first threepeat.

But seriously, John Starks was the 2nd best player...the Knicks were nowhere near as talented as the Bulls and tried to box their way to beating them.


For New York fans this era is romanticized beyond belief in their culture, but they didn't have the top-end talent that the Bulls again. Just one legit top 50 talent surrounded by role guys.

Pacers - I love this squad too. The 98 Pacers were fun and I love watching this series on YouTube.

But now we're talking about Reggie Miller/Rik Smits/Dale Davis as the 3 best players on that team...maybe Mark Jackson?

Comparing that to Michael, Scottie, Rodman. By 98, the Bulls were on their last leg, but even then the Bulls had the two best players in this series and probably 3 out of the 4 best.

Shoutout to 92 Cavs and 97 Jazz!

But for real, who exactly did the Bulls play that had the same 1-2 punch? two of the 8-9 best players of the decade on the same team the entire time and always with a 3rd all-star/DPOY candidate.

TL;DR: the Narrative that Jordan destroyed all-time greats in the greatest era of basketball is just myth. The 90s were not as strong as the 80s or the 2010s.

You can say the same thing for most of lebron's titles.

Anthony Davis > Dragic I guess??

Irving > Draymond or Klay

Wade > Westbrook

2013 was against a bunch of washed up guys and Kawhi

[Wally450]

They can be in a debate all they want, they're still not close.

[AirBonner]

They have to pass Paul Pierce first

[sdot_thadon]

Yes Op, not quite as close as Kobe, who is decidedly not so close after all....

[AirBonner]

Yes Op, not quite as close as Kobe, who is decidedly not so close after all....

Kobe might be out of the top 20 if this keeps happening

[ELITEpower23]

MJs competition was as good as this finals 2021. Bucks / Phoenix. Never really better than that.

No juggernaut Spurs, no 2012 OKC, no Warriors.

Name me a 90s finals opponent that was better than this year's Milwaukee Bucks.

Wrap this one up boys it's over.

[SATAN]

So what you're saying is:

1.LeBron
2. KD
3. Kawhi
4. Giannis
5. Jordan

Got it.

[ELITEpower23]

So what you're saying is:

1.LeBron
2. KD
3. Kawhi
4. Giannis
5. Jordan

Got it.

Precisely. They'll have to pass Jordan first if they want to enter the GOAT discussion. Levels to this shit OP, what a dummy.

[HoopsNY]

1 more title for any of them - that's all it will take for any of them to close the gap and be considered equal or better than Lebron

Lebron's time as a goat candidate will ultimately be brief, just like Kobe's.. 4 chips with super-teams and 1b's (lowest ring quality possible) will be his legacy

KD winning another title with a superteam doesn't enhance his ranking. Now if Kawhi does it, then there really is something to be said about it because it's tough to ignore his impact, especially if he manages to beat LeBron again in a series and have a great finals against a tough competitor like Brooklyn.

I still think we have to wait 4-5 more years for Giannis. He needs to win some more MVP awards, at least 2-3 more titles, and a couple more FMVPs to be in that conversation.

[k0kakw0rld]

Call me the day they reach 8 straight finals.

[HoopsNY]

I've always said the Bulls never played a team with nearly equal talent except MAYBE the Suns of 1993.

The second best player on the Knicks in the early 90s was Starks...while Scottie was a legit MVP candidate (#3 in 1994).

In 1996, Horace Grant left the Magic and the Bulls added Rodman.

The 1991 Lakers, worthy and scott were injured and Magic announced he had aids like 5 months after the finals.

1998, John Stockton scored 9.7 points per game, less than Jeff Hornacek.

Malone's #1 scoring teammate in that series was Hornacek, compared to Scottie Pippen.

At that time, the Bulls had two top 30 players of all time on their team + an all-star candidate and all-defence team member in Grant, and then a DPOY candidate in Rodman for the second three-peat.

Who exactly in the 90s had the same level of talent? The league was clearly watered down and I really don't see an argument against it.

In the 80s, you had teams with 4 hall of fame candidates or 3 + 1 all-star going at it.

Jordan dominated the 90s because there wasn't a legit challenger.

What exactly changed with the bulls between 1991 and 89 or 90? Did they all magically get better or did the Pistons just age out?

Jordan never beat a team that was better or equal than his.

In 88, 89, 90, the Bulls were beaten when they went up against a better team.

The biggest threats to Jordan in the 90s were, in my opinion:

PHX - Chuck, Johnson, and Majerle + good role players. I love this team and think this is the best squad they faced when fully healthy.

Even here though, Kevin Johnson/Majerle aren't the same calibre of player as Pippen.

And the defensive talent on the bulls with MJ/Pippen/Grant is too much to handle for guys like chambers/Majerle/Ceballos. As much as I like this team, they weren't as good as the bulls.

Knicks - The only team to take them to 7 games in the first threepeat.

But seriously, John Starks was the 2nd best player...the Knicks were nowhere near as talented as the Bulls and tried to box their way to beating them.


For New York fans this era is romanticized beyond belief in their culture, but they didn't have the top-end talent that the Bulls again. Just one legit top 50 talent surrounded by role guys.

Pacers - I love this squad too. The 98 Pacers were fun and I love watching this series on YouTube.

But now we're talking about Reggie Miller/Rik Smits/Dale Davis as the 3 best players on that team...maybe Mark Jackson?

Comparing that to Michael, Scottie, Rodman. By 98, the Bulls were on their last leg, but even then the Bulls had the two best players in this series and probably 3 out of the 4 best.

Shoutout to 92 Cavs and 97 Jazz!

But for real, who exactly did the Bulls play that had the same 1-2 punch? two of the 8-9 best players of the decade on the same team the entire time and always with a 3rd all-star/DPOY candidate.

TL;DR: the Narrative that Jordan destroyed all-time greats in the greatest era of basketball is just myth. The 90s were not as strong as the 80s or the 2010s.

You're grossly underrating how good the '96 Sonics were. GP+Kemp was a great duo, but a guy like Schrempf was a solid #3. Keep in mind, Schrempf was an All-Star and All-NBA just the year prior. Hersey Hawkins took a lesser role to facilitate that offense, but Hawkins was a 20+ PPG guy with Philly. As a 4th option he was putting up 16 PPG on 60% TS% as a 4th option.

Then add key guys like Perkins and McMillan. You're old enough to remember how solid a defender guys like McMillan were. And the Sonics as a team were #2 in the league in defense.

I think you're also underrating how good that '96 Magic team was. A sixth man like Scott (who was capable of 20 PPG), Anderson (former 20 PPG scorer), Grant (All-Defensive 2nd Team four years in a row including 1996), and two top 5 MVP candidates in Shaq and Penny.

Then there are the '91 Pistons. If Dirk gets credit for leading his team to beating a back to back championship team in the Lakers, then what about Detroit in 1991?

The Jazz were slapping around the Rockets, Spurs, and Lakers, in multiple years, who had rosters far more talented than the Jazz did. And are we forgetting that Stockton missed a bunch of games in 1998? Utah had a 51-13 record with him in the lineup, a near 66 win pace.

[3ba11]

I've always said the Bulls never played a team with nearly equal talent except MAYBE the Suns of 1993.

The second best player on the Knicks in the early 90s was Starks...while Scottie was a legit MVP candidate (#3 in 1994).

In 1996, Horace Grant left the Magic and the Bulls added Rodman.

The 1991 Lakers, worthy and scott were injured and Magic announced he had aids like 5 months after the finals.

1998, John Stockton scored 9.7 points per game, less than Jeff Hornacek.

Malone's #1 scoring teammate in that series was Hornacek, compared to Scottie Pippen.

At that time, the Bulls had two top 30 players of all time on their team + an all-star candidate and all-defence team member in Grant, and then a DPOY candidate in Rodman for the second three-peat.

Who exactly in the 90s had the same level of talent? The league was clearly watered down and I really don't see an argument against it.

In the 80s, you had teams with 4 hall of fame candidates or 3 + 1 all-star going at it.

Jordan dominated the 90s because there wasn't a legit challenger.

What exactly changed with the bulls between 1991 and 89 or 90? Did they all magically get better or did the Pistons just age out?

Jordan never beat a team that was better or equal than his.

In 88, 89, 90, the Bulls were beaten when they went up against a better team.

The biggest threats to Jordan in the 90s were, in my opinion:

PHX - Chuck, Johnson, and Majerle + good role players. I love this team and think this is the best squad they faced when fully healthy.

Even here though, Kevin Johnson/Majerle aren't the same calibre of player as Pippen.

And the defensive talent on the bulls with MJ/Pippen/Grant is too much to handle for guys like chambers/Majerle/Ceballos. As much as I like this team, they weren't as good as the bulls.

Knicks - The only team to take them to 7 games in the first threepeat.

But seriously, John Starks was the 2nd best player...the Knicks were nowhere near as talented as the Bulls and tried to box their way to beating them.


For New York fans this era is romanticized beyond belief in their culture, but they didn't have the top-end talent that the Bulls again. Just one legit top 50 talent surrounded by role guys.

Pacers - I love this squad too. The 98 Pacers were fun and I love watching this series on YouTube.

But now we're talking about Reggie Miller/Rik Smits/Dale Davis as the 3 best players on that team...maybe Mark Jackson?

Comparing that to Michael, Scottie, Rodman. By 98, the Bulls were on their last leg, but even then the Bulls had the two best players in this series and probably 3 out of the 4 best.

Shoutout to 92 Cavs and 97 Jazz!

But for real, who exactly did the Bulls play that had the same 1-2 punch? two of the 8-9 best players of the decade on the same team the entire time and always with a 3rd all-star/DPOY candidate.

TL;DR: the Narrative that Jordan destroyed all-time greats in the greatest era of basketball is just myth. The 90s were not as strong as the 80s or the 2010s.


Summary of your post


During the the 1st three-peat, the bulls faced better defenses 4 of 6 times in the Finals or ECF, and all of these opponents had more scoring options - so the stats confirm that Jordan faced better casts on both ends of the floor.

During the 2nd three-peat, the Bulls had arguably the weakest offensive cast ever - OF ANY TEAM - they played 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, while Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs.

[Axe]

You just need a pippen to make more than three finals in that decade, unlike today.

[3ba11]

You just need a pippen to make more than three finals in that decade, unlike today.


Anyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to be FMVP or average 25+ for at least one of the Finals - but Pippen was 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win with Pippen.

Heck, even prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with Pippen in the 11' Finals.