Why do you think KG is so overrated on Real Gm compared to this forum and others

[coastalmarker99]

On Real GM

Some people seriously rank KG as a top ten player of all time

On Real GM recent top 100 players of all-time list in 2020

KG was ranked 11th all-time and above players such as


Kobe Bryant

Jerry West

Oscar Robertson

Dirk Nowitzki

Karl Malone

David Robinson

Julius Erving

Moses Malone

Kevin Durant

Stephen Curry


For me personally, Garnett was very very good and well rounded but he had limitations.


He was never going to be your best offensive player and if he was, you weren't making it to the finals.


He constantly was unable to elevate his game in the playoffs.

He was never good at getting to the FT line and settled for mid-range jumpers way too often.

He was below average from an efficiency standpoint, in 17 seasons he scored 30+ points in a playoff game just 9 times.

I think folks see that he was a 20+ PPG scorer a few seasons and assume he was just a step below Dirk, Kobe or even Duncan offensively and it just isn't the case.

[warriorfan]

KG>Hakeem has been a thing on there for along time. KG’s on/off metrics are off the charts which get him a lot of love over there. In my opinion KG is somewhat underrated in general, but on RealGM he gets overrated. His true ranking is somewhere in between. I haven’t posted on that site for years though. It used to be a good site many years ago but it started to get really shitty.

[coastalmarker99]

RealGM for some reason likes to act as if KG was basically Tim Duncan with worse luck when he's clearly a tier or two below Tim, and he routinely lowered his game in the playoffs where Duncan consistently raised his.


KG routinely was outplayed at his position throughout his career when it really mattered in the playoffs.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF_ehaEogEY

[coastalmarker99]

KG>Hakeem has been a thing on there for along time. KG’s on/off metrics are off the charts which get him a lot of love over there. In my opinion KG is somewhat underrated in general, but on RealGM he gets overrated. His true ranking is somewhere in between. I haven’t posted on that site for years though. It used to be a good site many years ago but it started to get really shitty.


On Real GM I see that all of his fan club bases his high all-time ranking status off of RAPM and impact stats. Now what does that mean? It means that his primary argument is based on his crappy teammates.


This is a common refrain about KG:

"KG's on/off stats are +2123957! When he leaves the floor his team goes to crap."

or

"KG's win shares are +58903452! He does everything for his team!"

Both of those arguments are essentially the same. When KG is on the floor, the team plays well, when KG leaves the floor the team goes to crap.



So aren't those team-based arguments? A lot of teams go to crap when their best player leaves the floor...Harden, Lebron, Luka...but that is not an argument vs other players.


A lot of players have had crappy teammates...just look at Anthony Davis in New Orleans. In fact, AD and KG had similar success with crappy teammates.

Losing in the 1st round over and over and over and over and over and over.

What are some of the things you look for when you are comparing the ATG bigs...IMO, I would say defence and offensive efficiency.



What am I not really looking for from my bigs...playmaking and perimeter defence...



they are nice bonuses of course but they are not weighted the same as defence and offensive efficiency.



Do you know that out of any...I say any all-time great big man, KG has the lowest offensive efficiency. Let's list them:

Karl Malone

Barkley

Duncan

Dirk

Hakeem

Ewing

Robinson



Moses Malone

Shaq

Embiid

Jokic

Kareem

Wilt


Kevin Garnett is at the bottom of all these other guys with his efficiency. Garnett is so bad that a better comparison for his TS% is Allen Iverson. Then when it comes to the playoffs,

Garnett's efficiency really starts to crater. He becomes a liability scoring.



One of the reasons why KG's efficiency is so bad is that he can't get to the line.


In the playoffs, you need your bigs to get to the FT line for easy points.


This is the second major knock against KG:

He cannot get to the FT line consistently in the playoffs. Period.

Getting to the FT line is just as important as efficient 3pt shooting and that is consistent for any era.

Garnett can't do it.

Compare Garnett to Charles Barkley, who is the efficiency monster.

Barkley's career FTr is .533 and in his prime it was consistently over .600...in the playoffs.

Garnett's career FTr is .263 and only twice in his career did he get over .500

In plain terms KG gets four FTA's per game...that is just sad as a great big man.


It means, he is shooting a lot of 18-22ft jumpers. Which he is only average at best making. It's not like he is Kobe/Jordan/CP3/Durant in the mid-range.

KG is just an average scorer and inefficient for his position. So what you are getting is an Elite defender with average efficiency on offence.


Is that a great player...yes, but it is not top 10 alltime.



Especially when you consider that he has only one MVP and Zero FMVP's to go along with one ring despite playing on a super team from 2008 to 2010.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He didn't make his teammates better offensively and he wasn't an efficient #1 scorer in playoffs. I wouldn't rank him anywhere above top 30, he's like a hyped up draymond green.

Kawhi is +2.8 on playoff VORP and +6.1 on playoff win shares over KG despite kawhi having the rest of his 30's to play hahahaha

[warriorfan]

On Real GM I see that all of his fan club bases his high all-time ranking status off of RAPM and impact stats. Now what does that mean? It means that his primary argument is based on his crappy teammates.


This is a common refrain about KG:

"KG's on/off stats are +2123957! When he leaves the floor his team goes to crap."

or

"KG's win shares are +58903452! He does everything for his team!"

Both of those arguments are essentially the same. When KG is on the floor, the team plays well, when KG leaves the floor the team goes to crap.



So aren't those team-based arguments? A lot of teams go to crap when their best player leaves the floor...Harden, Lebron, Luka...but that is not an argument vs other players.


A lot of players have had crappy teammates...just look at Anthony Davis in New Orleans. In fact, AD and KG had similar success with crappy teammates.

Losing in the 1st round over and over and over and over and over and over.

What are some of the things you look for when you are comparing the ATG bigs...IMO, I would say defence and offensive efficiency.



What am I not really looking for from my bigs...playmaking and perimeter defence...



they are nice bonuses of course but they are not weighted the same as defence and offensive efficiency.



Do you know that out of any...I say any all-time great big man, KG has the lowest offensive efficiency. Let's list them:

Karl Malone

Barkley

Duncan

Dirk

Hakeem

Ewing

Robinson



Moses Malone

Shaq

Embiid

Jokic

Kareem

Wilt


Kevin Garnett is at the bottom of all these other guys with his efficiency. Garnett is so bad that a better comparison for his TS% is Allen Iverson. Then when it comes to the playoffs,

Garnett's efficiency really starts to crater. He becomes a liability scoring.



One of the reasons why KG's efficiency is so bad is that he can't get to the line.


In the playoffs, you need your bigs to get to the FT line for easy points.


This is the second major knock against KG:

He cannot get to the FT line consistently in the playoffs. Period.

Getting to the FT line is just as important as efficient 3pt shooting and that is consistent for any era.

Garnett can't do it.

Compare Garnett to Charles Barkley, who is the efficiency monster.

Barkley's career FTr is .533 and in his prime it was consistently over .600...in the playoffs.

Garnett's career FTr is .263 and only twice in his career did he get over .500

In plain terms KG gets four FTA's per game...that is just sad as a great big man.


It means, he is shooting a lot of 18-22ft jumpers. Which he is only average at best making. It's not like he is Kobe/Jordan/CP3/Durant in the mid-range.

KG is just an average scorer and inefficient for his position. So what you are getting is an Elite defender with average efficiency on offence.


Is that a great player...yes, but it is not top 10 alltime.



Especially when you consider that he has only one MVP and Zero FMVP's to go along with one ring despite playing on a super team from 2008 to 2010.

I think I ended up getting banned for making some of the points you made, especially on how impact stats can be influenced by quality of teammates and bench players. They would say things like “no, rapm algorithm adjusts for that”. I would ask them how and if they could explain. No one ever could, lol.

[Sulico]

KG>Hakeem has been a thing on there for along time. KG’s on/off metrics are off the charts which get him a lot of love over there. In my opinion KG is somewhat underrated in general, but on RealGM he gets overrated. His true ranking is somewhere in between. I haven’t posted on that site for years though. It used to be a good site many years ago but it started to get really shitty.

Exactly my opinion on the matter. On/off is a metric a lot of people love but it can be very deceiving.

[Derka]

No one who knows anything ranks KG in all-time top 10. No one.

[coastalmarker99]

No one who knows anything ranks KG in all-time top 10. No one.



Well Real GM did.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

[dankok8]

KG>Hakeem has been a thing on there for along time. KG’s on/off metrics are off the charts which get him a lot of love over there. In my opinion KG is somewhat underrated in general, but on RealGM he gets overrated. His true ranking is somewhere in between. I haven’t posted on that site for years though. It used to be a good site many years ago but it started to get really shitty.

Basically this... KG is generally a bit underrated but over there he's overrated. He's around #15 all time IMO.

[ralph_i_el]

RealGM for some reason likes to act as if KG was basically Tim Duncan with worse luck when he's clearly a tier or two below Tim, and he routinely lowered his game in the playoffs where Duncan consistently raised his.


KG routinely was outplayed at his position throughout his career when it really mattered in the playoffs.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF_ehaEogEY

This video just gave me the basketball jones at work. I just want to face somebody up so bad rn.

[Derka]

Well Real GM did.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

As I said...no one who knows anything ranks KG all-time top 10.

[HoopsNY]

Several times on this forum I have proven why Kevin Garnett is massively overrated. You simply cannot ignore that for his first seven seasons, he absolutely bombed it in the playoffs in the moments that mattered most - deciding games and in the 4th quarter.

It isn't until 2004 that KG puts together a better playoff performance, and then misses the playoffs for 3 years prior to forming a superteam in Boston.

Btw, it's not just RealGM. Look at Backpicks, for example, that puts KG at #8 all time, ahead of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, and Kobe.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

[RRR3]

Several times on this forum I have proven why Kevin Garnett is massively overrated. You simply cannot ignore that for his first seven seasons, he absolutely bombed it in the playoffs in the moments that mattered most - deciding games and in the 4th quarter.

It isn't until 2004 that KG puts together a better playoff performance, and then misses the playoffs for 3 years prior to forming a superteam in Boston.

Btw, it's not just RealGM. Look at Backpicks, for example, that puts KG at #8 all time, ahead of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, and Kobe.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
You should probably look up what prove means.

[HoopsNY]

You should probably look up what prove means.

I'll do that after why you think anything I mentioned about KG is inaccurate. It's clear that there are many in the basketball world who think extremely highly of KG (to the point that backpicks places him at #8). If my analysis was off, then please show me how.

[RRR3]

I'll do that after why you think anything I mentioned about KG is inaccurate. It's clear that there are many in the basketball world who think extremely highly of KG (to the point that backpicks places him at #8). If my analysis was off, then please show me how.
I didn’t say KG isn’t overrated by RGM but you didn’t prove anything and your reasoning wasn’t great.

[Charlie Sheen]

realgm is like being on a diet. there's no flavor to their basketball discussion. who cares what they think? isn't that why most of us post here instead :cheers:

[HoopsNY]

I didn’t say KG isn’t overrated by RGM but you didn’t prove anything and your reasoning wasn’t great.

In what universe does KG deserve to be placed ahead of guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Kobe, Oscar, West, etc? Did you see his production in the playoffs his first 7 seasons, and the deciding games? KG folded in the biggest spots.

He then missed the playoffs three years in a row. His only claim to such fame is the defensive impact he gave those (already stacked and great defensive) Celtic teams. But that's just it, it took a superteam for him to attain that level of recognition.

Compare that impact to what Kobe did with far lesser talent, or Wilt, or Hakeem, or Duncan, or any player within or around the top 10.

People sometimes rank KG and Duncan close together, with Duncan slightly ahead. The reality is that KG wasn't anywhere near Duncan either.

[coastalmarker99]

In what universe does KG deserve to be placed ahead of guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Kobe, Oscar, West, etc? Did you see his production in the playoffs his first 7 seasons, and the deciding games? KG folded in the biggest spots.

He then missed the playoffs three years in a row. His only claim to such fame is the defensive impact he gave those (already stacked and great defensive) Celtic teams. But that's just it, it took a superteam for him to attain that level of recognition.

Compare that impact to what Kobe did with far lesser talent, or Wilt, or Hakeem, or Duncan, or any player within or around the top 10.

People sometimes rank KG and Duncan close together, with Duncan slightly ahead. The reality is that KG wasn't anywhere near Duncan either.


The Real GM forum has tried to teach me that KG was

Magic Johnson in transition

Michael Jordan from midrange

Hakeem Olajuwon on post and help defense

While having the greatest motor of all time

You'd think with a talent like that a guy would make it out of his conference just one time. Just once.


Hell, a pre-prime LeBron James led a pretty goddamn awful Cavs team on offense to the NBA finals at 23 years old.


Instead, KG got outplayed by his rivals at his position over and over again and never could carry his team like they needed a supposed player of his calibre to.


The thing that is annoying to me about Real GM when it comes to KG is they don't really believe this.


Defending KG for them in my eyes is about defending their favourite selection of stats and thus their worldview about basketball, he's the lynchpin.


That's why they delude themselves into believing that KG just had this special set of circumstances that, of course, no other player in history could overcome.


KG was really a top ten player of all-time we just have to trust and believe them....even though many fans and media members watched KG's entire career too and would laugh at that take.

[warriorfan]

Yeah
The Real GM forum has tried to teach me that KG was

Magic Johnson in transition

Michael Jordan from midrange

Hakeem Olajuwon on post and help defense

While having the greatest motor of all time

You'd think with a talent like that a guy would make it out of his conference just one time. Just once.


Hell, a pre-prime LeBron James led a pretty goddamn awful Cavs team on offense to the NBA finals at 23 years old.


Instead, KG got outplayed by his rivals at his position over and over again and never could carry his team like they needed a supposed player of his calibre to.


The thing that is annoying to me about Real GM when it comes to KG is they don't really believe this.


Defending KG for them in my eyes is about defending their favourite selection of stats and thus their worldview about basketball, he's the lynchpin.


That's why they delude themselves into believing that KG just had this special set of circumstances that, of course, no other player in history could overcome.


KG was really a top ten player of all-time we just have to trust and believe them....even though many fans and media members watched KG's entire career too and would laugh at that take.

This is pretty insightful and dead on I have to say.

[Number34]

Thread where they actually discuss the pick: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2013258&start=20

Big deal for them seems to be era portability and durability.

[coastalmarker99]

Yeah

This is pretty insightful and dead on I have to say.


Here are KG' elimination game stats vs Jerry West's elimination game stats


KG

9 Wins, 12 Losses

18.5 points

46.2 FG%

51.2 TS%

71.7 FT%

12.5 REB

4.2 AST

1.3 STL

1.2 BLK

3.0 TOV



Here are Jerry West's elimination games averages

13 11 W-L record

29.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

6.4 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.4 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

55% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)

[coastalmarker99]

Here is an interesting topic to ponder and that is why is KG so overrated on Real GM compared to someone such as David Robinson.


For the 1993/94 season to 1994/95 season


Robinson averaged 28 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 3.3 blocks & 1.7 steals.

Robinson shot 51% from the floor & 76% from the line (11 FTAs per game)

In 1994, Robinson was the MVP runner-up & DPOY runner-up.

In 1994, Robinson led the Spurs to the 6th-best record in the league but lost in the 1st Round to the Jazz.

In 1995, Robinson won the MVP but finished 4th in voting for the DPOY.

In 1995, Robinson led the Spurs to the best record in the league and lost in the Conference Finals to the Rockets.

Robinson's supporting cast during his MVP season: Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot & Dennis Rodman


Robinson was in a similar situation as KG was most of his career and had much more success than KG did when he was with the wolves compared to Robinson before Duncan


KG got out of the first round one time his whole career with the wolves.

Robinson at least managed that 4 times.

And he got the spurs to 55+ wins 5 times.

KG did that once with the wolves.

Robinson did that in 7 years, the same amount of years KG was in Minnesota once he turned the same age as Robinson in his rookie year.

All you have to do is look at how terribly the spurs did when Robinson was hurt at the beginning of the 1997 season to see how hard he carried the team.

They went 3-15 before Robinson came back and I seriously doubt the spurs were planning on tanking from the beginning of the season that year.

[HoopsNY]

Here are KG' elimination game stats vs Jerry West's elimination game stats


KG

9 Wins, 12 Losses

18.5 points

46.2 FG%

51.2 TS%

71.7 FT%

12.5 REB

4.2 AST

1.3 STL

1.2 BLK

3.0 TOV



Here are Jerry West's elimination games averages

13 11 W-L record

29.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

6.4 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.4 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

55% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)

Ether...not to mention, West was an elite defensive player, so he probably had his share of steals and even blocks.

[HoopsNY]

Here is an interesting topic to ponder and that is why is KG so overrated on Real GM compared to someone such as David Robinson.


For the 1993/94 season to 1994/95 season


Robinson averaged 28 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 3.3 blocks & 1.7 steals.

Robinson shot 51% from the floor & 76% from the line (11 FTAs per game)

In 1994, Robinson was the MVP runner-up & DPOY runner-up.

In 1994, Robinson led the Spurs to the 6th-best record in the league but lost in the 1st Round to the Jazz.

In 1995, Robinson won the MVP but finished 4th in voting for the DPOY.

In 1995, Robinson led the Spurs to the best record in the league and lost in the Conference Finals to the Rockets.

Robinson's supporting cast during his MVP season: Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot & Dennis Rodman


Robinson was in a similar situation as KG was most of his career and had much more success than KG did when he was with the wolves compared to Robinson before Duncan


KG got out of the first round one time his whole career with the wolves.

Robinson at least managed that 4 times.

And he got the spurs to 55+ wins 5 times.

KG did that once with the wolves.

Robinson did that in 7 years, the same amount of years KG was in Minnesota once he turned the same age as Robinson in his rookie year.

All you have to do is look at how terribly the spurs did when Robinson was hurt at the beginning of the 1997 season to see how hard he carried the team.

They went 3-15 before Robinson came back and I seriously doubt the spurs were planning on tanking from the beginning of the season that year.

Yet ESPN has KG ranked ahead of Robinson. This is where the overrating really shows. It's definitely not just RealGM. This is a common view.

[coastalmarker99]

Ether...not to mention, West was an elite defensive player, so he probably had his share of steals and even blocks.


To rank KG above West is in my eyes a complete insult.



West destroys KG when it comes to game sevens and elimination games along with performing in the NBA finals along and we are not even accounting for blocks or Steals.


Here are Jerry West's game seven averages

4- 5 W-L record

30.9 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.8 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

47.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)

TS% 54.3 Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)



Here are Jerry West's finals averages

30.5 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

5.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

45.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)





West also finished second in MVP voting 4 times throughout his career and was so respected that he is the only player in NBA history to get the FMVP on a losing team.

[HoopsNY]

I didn’t say KG isn’t overrated by RGM but you didn’t prove anything and your reasoning wasn’t great.

If I haven't proven how overrated KG is just based on his woeful performances in his first 7 playoff series, then at least take what coastal is saying.

[coastalmarker99]

Here are KG's finals averages

16.8 PPG (Regular season career average is 17.8 ppg)

9.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.0 rpg)

3.0 APG (Regular season career average is 3.7 APG)

46.6 FG% (Regular season career average is 49.7 FG%)

1.2 BPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 BPG)

1.5 STL (Regular season career average is 1.3 STL)



Here are KG' elimination game averages

9 Wins, 12 Losses


18.2 PPG (Regular season career average is 17.8 ppg)

12.5 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.0 rpg)

4.2 APG (Regular season career average is 3.7 APG)

46.6 FG% (Regular season career average is 49.7 FG%)

71.7 FT% (Regular season career average is 78.9%)

1.2 BPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 BPG)

1.3 STL (Regular season career average is 1.3 STL)

3.0 TOV (Regular season career average is 2.2 TOV)





Here are KG's game seven averages


17.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 17.8 ppg)

11.3 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.0 rpg)

2.0 APG (Regular season career average is 3.7 APG)

52.5 FG% (Regular season career average is 49.7 FG%)

67.9 FT% (Regular season career average is 78.9%)

1.6 BPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 BPG)

1.3 STL (Regular season career average is 1.3 STL)

1.6 TOV (Regular season career average is 2.2 TOV)

[Reggie43]

Was anybody expecting KG to make the Finals on those Minnesota teams? Him dragging those guys to multiple 50 win seasons is an achievement in itself.

[DoctorP]

Yanni > Garnett

[iamgine]

KG is more Pippen type. He's a defensive force first, playmaker second, scorer third. This type usually has a lot of intangibles that's not counted by stats and need good teammates to thrive.

[Reggie43]

KG is more Pippen type. He's a defensive force first, playmaker second, scorer third. This type usually has a lot of intangibles that's not counted by stats and need good teammates to thrive.

This

Anybody who judges Garnett solely on his scoring numbers definitely has no idea what KG was all about as a player or how players of the same mindset have different priorities on the basketball floor.

[RRR3]

If I haven't proven how overrated KG is just based on his woeful performances in his first 7 playoff series, then at least take what coastal is saying.
Your arguments are bad, that’s all I said. You’re using PPGZ and Skip Bayless clutch arguments for a guy who’s best asset wasn’t scoring. That’s bad reasoning. I don’t have KG ranked over any of those guys (although you mentioned Oscar and it’s not like he was any more successful than KG as a number one option) but you’re not making the case well when you try to prove he’s not an elite playoff scorer which no one is claiming.

[Nowitness]

This

Anybody who judges Garnett solely on his scoring numbers definitely has no idea what KG was all about as a player or how players of the same mindset have different priorities on the basketball floor.

How many times has a team won without a player who had the ability to score 30+ points in the playoffs when needed?

Saying KG was more Pippen like, then in the same sentence saying he is a top 15 player is laughable. Yes he is Pippen like, meaning he could never be the leading offensive option on a contender. Sam Cassell in 2004 at 37 had 2 40 point playoff games, KG never scored more than 35. KG had no ability to raise his scoring game in the playoffs, and the same people who say he chose not to and to pass more surely acknowledge dude lacked IQ if he was passing to such 'trash teammates' rather than taking over like Duncan did.

[warriorfan]

A big thing with RealGM’s ranking of KG has to do with how he would fit perfectly with almost any team. They are big on this and weight it quite heavily. Other great players need certain guys around them to maximize their potential or would have issues if they played in other eras.

[Reggie43]

How many times has a team won without a player who had the ability to score 30+ points in the playoffs when needed?

Saying KG was more Pippen like, then in the same sentence saying he is a top 15 player is laughable. Yes he is Pippen like, meaning he could never be the leading offensive option on a contender. Sam Cassell in 2004 at 37 had 2 40 point playoff games, KG never scored more than 35. KG had no ability to raise his scoring game in the playoffs, and the same people who say he chose not to and to pass more surely acknowledge dude lacked IQ if he was passing to such 'trash teammates' rather than taking over like Duncan did.

If I told you he actually led the the Celtics in scoring in their championship run would you believe me? Shooting more, scoring more and being significantly more efficient.

[Axe]

Was anybody expecting KG to make the Finals on those Minnesota teams? Him dragging those guys to multiple 50 win seasons is an achievement in itself.
Indeed. He was the franchise's best player and that will remain as long as the wolves are laughingstocks in their conference.

[Nowitness]

If I told you he actually led the the Celtics in scoring in their championship run would you believe me? Shooting more, scoring more and being significantly more efficient.

Averaging half a point more than someone else on the team makes you the clear cut best player on offence now? �� Duncan averaging 25 when his next best scorer was averaging 14 on 42% shooting and 27% 3 point shooting whilst winning a title is proving you can lead an offence.

KG had 1 30 point playoff game in 08. Of you think that is leading an offence you’ve screwed the definition tremendously. He also was the third option down the stretch.

[warriorfan]

Averaging half a point more than someone else on the team makes you the clear cut best player on offence now? �� Duncan averaging 25 when his next best scorer was averaging 14 on 42% shooting and 27% 3 point shooting whilst winning a title is proving you can lead an offence.

KG had 1 30 point playoff game in 08. Of you think that is leading an offence you’ve screwed the definition tremendously. He also was the third option down the stretch.

I’m not sure about kg being third option. I’m pretty sure if you take out garbage time free throws for pierce that KG scored the most in the 4th quarters for them in the finals.

[Nowitness]

I’m not sure about kg being third option. I’m pretty sure if you take out garbage time free throws for pierce that KG scored the most in the 4th quarters for them in the finals.

In the 08 finals, in 4th Quarters total KG scored 26 points, Allen scored 26, Pierce scored 34.

If that isn’t the definition off three headed monster on offence I don’t know what is. I do what it isn’t, it isn’t KG being the clear cut best offensive player on a contender, like Duncan was multiple times.

[90sgoat]

A big thing with RealGM’s ranking of KG has to do with how he would fit perfectly with almost any team. They are big on this and weight it quite heavily. Other great players need certain guys around them to maximize their potential or would have issues if they played in other eras.

Sounds like a role player.

[warriorfan]

In the 08 finals, in 4th Quarters total KG scored 26 points, Allen scored 26, Pierce scored 34.

If that isn’t the definition off three headed monster on offence I don’t know what is. I do what it isn’t, it isn’t KG being the clear cut best offensive player on a contender, like Duncan was multiple times.

KG came right out of highschool playing big minutes. It was his 13th season in the NBA at that point. By the time Duncan was KG’s age or on his 13th season he was done with his clear cut best first option on a contender phase. If you want to do some more fair Duncan comparisons. Have KG drafted by the Spurs while Tim goes to Minnesota. How do you think that would of panned out and effected their rankings?

[Nowitness]

KG came right out of highschool playing big minutes. It was his 13th season in the NBA at that point. By the time Duncan was KG’s age or on his 13th season he was done with his clear cut best first option on a contender phase. If you want to do some more fair Duncan comparisons. Have KG drafted by the Spurs while Tim goes to Minnesota. How do you think that would of panned out and effected their rankings?

KG had 7 Games of 30+ points in the Playoffs, Duncan has 45. KG was never the clear cut best offensive option on a contender. Even in 04 Spree was 19 a game and Cassell was 18/8 and had 2 40 point playoff games.

KG wins the 05/07 titles. No way does he win in 99/03 or 14.

On the flip side, Duncan is winning with the Wolves in 04 and I can confidently say he gets more than one with Pierce/Allen/Rondo

[warriorfan]

KG had 7 Games of 30+ points in the Playoffs, Duncan has 45. KG was never the clear cut best offensive option on a contender. Even in 04 Spree was 19 a game and Cassell was 18/8 and had 2 40 point playoff games.

KG wins the 05/07 titles. No way does he win in 99/03 or 14.

On the flip side, Duncan is winning with the Wolves in 04 and I can confidently say he gets more than one with Pierce/Allen/Rondo

Well even if Duncan wins 2 titles with Boston….he would be scoring 20 Ppg in the playoffs at that point in his career. Does he get a knock for not being a “clear cut first option?”

[Nowitness]

Well even if Duncan wins 2 titles with Boston….he would be scoring 20 Ppg in the playoffs at that point in his career. Does he get a knock for not being a “clear cut first option?”

Not if he had already proved he could be the guy? No one mentions or cares about Duncan taking a back seat on offence from 09>>> because he won multiple titles as his teams clear cut best offensive option, and in 03 was his teams only above average offensive option and still won.

[warriorfan]

Not if he had already proved he could be the guy? No one mentions or cares about Duncan taking a back seat on offence from 09>>> because he won multiple titles as his teams clear cut best offensive option, and in 03 was his teams only above average offensive option and still won.

Just saying if he won titles with Boston you would be disregarding them somewhat because Pierce and Allen would be scoring a similar amount or more. So keep that in account as well.

Also in 04 KG scored 24 ppg over 18 games in the playoffs. Duncan averaged 22 ppg that year in the playoffs.

[Nowitness]

Just saying if he won titles with Boston you would be disregarding them somewhat because Pierce and Allen would be scoring a similar amount or more. So keep that in account as well.

Again I I00% would not disregard had he already proven he could lead a team on offence.

I have KG in my top 20 all time. I’m simply disputing the notion he could carry an offence to a title. Share the offensive load and dominate on D? Sure, but lead as your teams clear cut guy on both sides of the ball? Nope, Duncan did that

[warriorfan]

Again I I00% would not disregard had he already proven he could lead a team on offence.

I have KG in my top 20 all time. I’m simply disputing the notion he could carry an offence to a title. Share the offensive load and dominate on D? Sure, but lead as your teams clear cut guy on both sides of the ball? Nope, Duncan did that

By Duncan winning a title in 04 with the wolves? When he scored 22 ppg at that point of his career with the Spurs? I don’t know how that is supposed to all work out.

[Nowitness]

Just saying if he won titles with Boston you would be disregarding them somewhat because Pierce and Allen would be scoring a similar amount or more. So keep that in account as well.

Also in 04 KG scored 24 ppg over 18 games in the playoffs. Duncan averaged 22 ppg that year in the playoffs.

You’re confusing vacuum stats with leading a team. Shaq averaging 30 with Kobe putting up 28 isn’t more impressive or a bigger carry than Duncan averaging 25 with Parker averaging 14, is it? KG was averaging 24, but as I’ve pointed out;

He had 2 other near 20 point scorers on a fairly high efficiency
Cassell had 2 40 point games in that playoff run
KG could constantly get you 24, but what set Duncan apart was he knew when he needed 30+. Evidences by the fact that KG has 7 30+ point playoff games, Duncan has 45.

[Nowitness]

By Duncan winning a title in 04 with the wolves? When he scored 22 ppg at that point of his career with the Spurs? I don’t know how that is supposed to all work out.

Thing is KG never came close to replicating his offence of 04. In 06 Duncan averaged 26 PPG in the playoffs. If Duncan won averaging 25 with his next best at 14, I’m confident he’d win a resting 22 if he had two other 18+ point scorers. But the difference is he’d have known when to raise his game and take over, something KG did what twice his entire playoff career?

[warriorfan]

You’re confusing vacuum stats with leading a team. Shaq averaging 30 with Kobe putting up 28 isn’t more impressive or a bigger carry than Duncan averaging 25 with Parker averaging 14, is it? KG was averaging 24, but as I’ve pointed out;

He had 2 other near 20 point scorers on a fairly high efficiency
Cassell had 2 40 point games in that playoff run
KG could constantly get you 24, but what set Duncan apart was he knew when he needed 30+. Evidences by the fact that KG has 7 30+ point playoff games, Duncan has 45.

It’s just interesting how you think Duncan would win in 04 when he scored less points than KG in the same playoffs.

This is the roster Duncan would have to work with btw

https://i.postimg.cc/Vk5Vr75q/5-D586046-D8-FE-47-D0-B63-E-3-CB9186-C1944.jpg

Meanwhile in 04 Duncan lost with this roster while scoring 22 ppg

https://i.postimg.cc/MTz0RTtC/E0-FD3-DA6-C65-C-4-B77-97-F4-4-AFFDF7-AA9-F5.jpg

So Duncan would be more successful with a way worse roster and at the same time bump up his ppg 20%? Sounds dubious to say the least.

[Nowitness]

It’s just interesting how you think Duncan would win in 04 when he scored less points than KG in the same playoffs.

This is the roster Duncan would have to work with btw

https://i.postimg.cc/Vk5Vr75q/5-D586046-D8-FE-47-D0-B63-E-3-CB9186-C1944.jpg

Meanwhile in 04 Duncan lost with this roster while scoring 22 ppg

https://i.postimg.cc/MTz0RTtC/E0-FD3-DA6-C65-C-4-B77-97-F4-4-AFFDF7-AA9-F5.jpg

So Duncan would be more successful with a way worse roster and at the same time bump up his ppg 20%? Sounds dubious to say the least.

You’ve provided nothing more than names. If you’d be so kind as to post the playoff statistics for the 03-04 Wolves/Spurs I’ll then be more than happy to showcase how Duncan would have won.

[Pointguard]

RealGM for some reason likes to act as if KG was basically Tim Duncan with worse luck when he's clearly a tier or two below Tim, and he routinely lowered his game in the playoffs where Duncan consistently raised his.


KG routinely was outplayed at his position throughout his career when it really mattered in the playoffs.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF_ehaEogEY

Lets not get carried away. He wasn't routinely outplayed by anybody at his position. Dirk wasn't guarding all star PFs at this time (because of being embarrassed) and KG only guarded Dirk here and there in this series. KG might have been outplayed in a series but who hasn't. Post Injury Tmac decimated Dirk in a series while really stopping him defensively. You don't hear anybody overhyping that. One series is just one series. That's how you know a guy is great.

[warriorfan]

You’ve provided nothing more than names. If you’d be so kind as to post the playoff statistics for the 03-04 Wolves/Spurs I’ll then be more than happy to showcase how Duncan would have won.

Are you insinuating that KG had a better supporting cast than Duncan in 04?

[Smoke117]

Hilarious question considering the collective intelligence of this board is just above preschool level.

[Nowitness]

Are you insinuating that KG had a better supporting cast than Duncan in 04?

Yes, because he did? In 04 Duncan had what, a third year Parker and a second year Manu? KG had Cassell who was All-NBA 2nd team (for reference, Duncan didn’t have an All-NBA teammate between 2002 and 2008), Spree who was a veteran putting up almost 20 PPG in the playoffs and Wally Z who was an All-Star the year before.

No question the 04 Wolves were better. When did Duncan ever have a player drop multiple 40 point games in a playoff run?

[warriorfan]

Yes, because he did? In 04 Duncan had what, a third year Parker and a second year Manu? KG had Cassell who was All-NBA 2nd team (for reference, Duncan didn’t have an All-NBA teammate between 2002 and 2008), Spree who was a veteran putting up almost 20 PPG in the playoffs and Wally Z who was an All-Star the year before.

No question the 04 Wolves were better. When did Duncan ever have a player drop multiple 40 point games in a playoff run?

Which core is better?

Sam Cassel
Latrell Sprewell
Fred Hoiberg
Wally Szczerbiak
Trenton Hassell


Or

Manu Ginobili
Hedo Turkoglu
Tony Parker
Robert Horry
Bruce Bowen

[Nowitness]

Which core is better?

Sam Cassel
Latrell Sprewell
Fred Hoiberg
Wally Szczerbiak
Trenton Hassell


Or

Manu Ginobili
Hedo Turkoglu
Tony Parker
Robert Horry
Bruce Bowen

Careers? Quite obviously SA. Based on how they were playing in 2004? Without question Minnesota.

Again, you’ve named names with no context. Tony was in year 3, coming out of an off season in which SA were pushing to trade him. Manu was in year 2. Bowen would have been virtually unplayable had he not been playing with a dominant inside scorer. You’re judging 03/04 versions of SA players based on their peaks, and judging 03/04 versions of Minnesota players based on their careers.

[Kenny Griffin]

realgm probly has boris diaw in their top 20 all time

[warriorfan]

Careers? Quite obviously SA. Based on how they were playing in 2004? Without question Minnesota.

Again, you’ve named names with no context. Tony was in year 3, coming out of an off season in which SA were pushing to trade him. Manu was in year 2. Bowen would have been virtually unplayable had he not been playing with a dominant inside scorer. You’re judging 03/04 versions of SA players based on their peaks, and judging 03/04 versions of Minnesota players based on their careers.

No I’m not really.

The core of players I listed for the Spurs were a better squad than the wolves, even in 04.

[90sgoat]

Careers? Quite obviously SA. Based on how they were playing in 2004? Without question Minnesota.

Again, you’ve named names with no context. Tony was in year 3, coming out of an off season in which SA were pushing to trade him. Manu was in year 2. Bowen would have been virtually unplayable had he not been playing with a dominant inside scorer. You’re judging 03/04 versions of SA players based on their peaks, and judging 03/04 versions of Minnesota players based on their careers.

Yes agree.

Cassell and Sprewell in particular were proven big time names and recent all stars, definitely better at the time than Parker and Manu.

[warriorfan]

Yes agree.

Cassell and Sprewell in particular were proven big time names and recent all stars, definitely better at the time than Parker and Manu.

What about Hedo-Horry-Bowen vs Fred Hoiberg-Wally Szczerbiak-Trenton Hassell? :lol

Btw Spree scored 17 points on 49% TS that year. 49%! Lol.

[tpols]

KG is overrated because defense is much cheaper than offense. Some of the best defensive players ever were 2nd round picks or undrafted, yet pretty much all the best offensive players ever were lotto picks. Its much easier to find and pay defensive talent. You can't find truly elite offense for cheap. Dirk used to son Duncan and Garnett.

[tpols]

A big thing with RealGM’s ranking of KG has to do with how he would fit perfectly with almost any team. They are big on this and weight it quite heavily. Other great players need certain guys around them to maximize their potential or would have issues if they played in other eras.

They're also high on Lebron and he doesn't fit with anything other than stretch big men to give him his lanes. That forum is a dystopian groupthink hive mind when it comes to ranking players. They fall perfectly in line with what media puts out. And censor anybody who provides contrary arguments. ISH is still the land of the free, and home of the brave.

[HoopsNY]

Your arguments are bad, that’s all I said. You’re using PPGZ and Skip Bayless clutch arguments for a guy who’s best asset wasn’t scoring. That’s bad reasoning. I don’t have KG ranked over any of those guys (although you mentioned Oscar and it’s not like he was any more successful than KG as a number one option) but you’re not making the case well when you try to prove he’s not an elite playoff scorer which no one is claiming.

You keep saying my arguments are bad, but you're not actually dissecting them. I'm not relying on PPG solely. In fact, the premise of my argument isn't about PPG, it's about folding in the biggest spots and defaulting to teammates, both of which KG were known to do.

You can't consistently get outplayed by your teammates in the biggest spots while simultaneously being praised for elevating bad teams that lacked support. What happened when the support was there? I'll tell you what happened; nothing.

And coastal has gone through several examples showing how KG is ranked (on many forums and media platforms) above all time greats, yet his clutch play just doesn't stack up - like - at all.

So what's so "Skip Bayless" about any of this?

[HoopsNY]

KG is overrated because defense is much cheaper than offense. Some of the best defensive players ever were 2nd round picks or undrafted, yet pretty much all the best offensive players ever were lotto picks. Its much easier to find and pay defensive talent. You can't find truly elite offense for cheap. Dirk used to son Duncan and Garnett.

While I don't entirely agree with the premise this post, there is something to be said about Dirk winning an MVP, taking his team to two finals, and winning a championship in a season where he beats the defending champions and a superteam in Miami.

KG had to form a superteam to get to that level. And when they went head-to-head, Dirk demolished him. But no one ever really mentions this.

[NBAGOAT]

Those impact stats that rate kg so highly just aren’t too applicable in the playoffs because of sample size issues. Defaulting to the box score will underrate him at least based on what he did during the rs. To use someone as an example of someone worse but also rates highly by those metrics. Anyone who watched knows playoff draymond was absolutely dominating games, even when he put like 8 points on 4/11 shooting and didn’t matter if it was a win or loss either. With fair kg analysis, it’s going require more film analysis than most

[Nowitness]

What about Hedo-Horry-Bowen vs Fred Hoiberg-Wally Szczerbiak-Trenton Hassell? :lol

Btw Spree scored 17 points on 49% TS that year. 49%! Lol.

Only can see one all star from those 6 players, and it's the one on KGs team.

In the playoffs KG shot .513 TS %, Spree shot .521 TS% and scored 20 PPG. Seems as always KG slipped in nut crunching time