So we all agree that MJ beats NY in 94' Playoffs in Pippen's place and...

[3ba11]

beats Hakeem since Ewing almost did with 18 on 35%?

Which is further evidence that MJ would've won without Pippen?

and simply needed a decent brand of team ball to win? (the non-winning triangle was sufficient)

Got it

[Axe]

1-9

[Im so nba'd out]

Literally no one agrees with that

[RRR3]

MJ never got past the first round without Pippen but he’s going to win a ring with Horace Grant as his number two?

[3ba11]

MJ never got past the first round without Pippen but he’s going to win a ring with Horace Grant as his number two?


Pippen went 7 with the Knicks despite 21 on 40% and many chokes, so MJ beats the Knicks easily

MJ just needs a few years with a team until they have good chemistry and decent team strategy/brand of ball.. He certainly didn't need much scoring help or a juggernaut scorer at 2nd option - any 15-16 ppg bum will do and a top 10 team defense..

[Im so nba'd out]

Scratch that i misread the OP that he would win it all in 94...he might of beat the knicks

[3ba11]

Scratch that i misread the OP that he would win it all in 94...he might of beat the knicks


Why can't MJ beat Hakeem if Ewing nearly did it with 18 on 35%?.. do you think MJ would average 18 on 35%?

The Rockets sucked in 94' and weren't legit until 95' with Drexler

[ShawkFactory]

beats Hakeem since Ewing almost did with 18 on 35%?

Which is further evidence that MJ would've won without Pippen?

and simply needed a decent brand of team ball to win? (the non-winning triangle was sufficient)

Got it

I always get confused as to whether or not you know what evidence means.

[3ba11]

Why can't MJ beat Hakeem if Ewing nearly did it with 18 on 35%?.. do you think MJ would average 18 on 35%?





Crickets on this one.. MJ always gets 18 on 35% like Ewing did, whereas MJ always averaged an amount that another player might not get

[Smoke117]

Michael Jordan is considered the greatest player of all time. Why isn't that enough for you that you have to tear down his best teammate? There is something seriously wrong with you. It's not like this is something new, but you've been doing this for YEARS. What the **** is wrong with you?

[3ba11]

Michael Jordan is considered the greatest player of all time. Why isn't that enough for you that you have to tear down his best teammate? There is something seriously wrong with you. It's not like this is something new, but you've been doing this for YEARS. What the **** is wrong with you?


Paul George got destroyed for averaging 21 on 45% against Denver in the bubble - Pippen's entire career was much worse than that, so Jordan won 6 chips by carrying a Pandemic P caliber player.

So Pippen was trash - he just was - it isn't me "tearing him down"

if he didn't average 15 on 34% in the Finals, then maybe I wouldn't tear him down... but his performance is simply the worst all-time in the playoffs

[RRR3]

Michael Jordan is considered the greatest player of all time. Why isn't that enough for you that you have to tear down his best teammate? There is something seriously wrong with you. It's not like this is something new, but you've been doing this for YEARS. What the **** is wrong with you?
He doesn’t even care about Jordan. He just hates LeBron and he thinks he can use Jordan to make LeBron look bad. He’d like to do it with his favorite player Kobe but he knows he can’t ever make LeBron look bad with Kobe lol.

[Smoke117]

He doesn’t even care about Jordan. He just hates LeBron and he thinks he can use Jordan to make LeBron look bad. He’d like to do it with his favorite player Kobe but he knows he can’t ever make LeBron look bad with Kobe lol.

He probably obsesses over Pippen more than he does LeBron even. Every time I come on here there is about 3 of his new Pippen threads.

[Mask the Embiid]

beats Hakeem since Ewing almost did with 18 on 35%?

Which is further evidence that MJ would've won without Pippen?

and simply needed a decent brand of team ball to win? (the non-winning triangle was sufficient)

Got it

The same knicks team that Pippen shot 51% vs the year before and MJ could only muster up a measly 40% from the field. You'll never admit Scottie bailed him out with his phenomenal tho so continue the shtick 3flaw

[97 bulls]

Why can't MJ beat Hakeem if Ewing nearly did it with 18 on 35%?.. do you think MJ would average 18 on 35%?

The Rockets sucked in 94' and weren't legit until 95' with Drexler

Because Hakeem was the one defending Ewing. Not Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley. That's you're problem bro. You're comparisons are extremely flawed. You need to stop looking at these situations in a vacuum.

[Im so nba'd out]

OP refuses to respond to the last couple of post....he thinks if he ducks his head in the sand that this thread will just go away but ppl keep bringing it back :oldlol:

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

[3ba11]

The same knicks team that Pippen shot 51% vs the year before and MJ could only muster up a measly 40% from the field. You'll never admit Scottie bailed him out with his phenomenal tho so continue the shtick 3flaw


Go back and watch Game 3 of the 93' ECF (the game you think that Pippen bailed out MJ)..

You'll see that the Knicks were ceding the game from the start - they were down 15 after one quarter and the game was over.. MJ had 8 points and 6 assists in that quarter, while Pippen had 6 points and 0 assists - so MJ won the game early and it was a blowout after that where Jordan/Pippen weren't even needed.

this is why anyone THAT ACTUALLY WATCHED THOSE GAMES understands that Pippen was frequently more of a role player and never saved or won any game - the stats confirm this (he often had defensive role player stats).. Pippen was forced into a 2nd option role, but his worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the load most of the time (see the 93' Playoffs, 96-98' Playoffs, 99-03' Playoffs, 88-90' Playoffs, or the chart in previous post above)..

[AirBonner]

If there is no Pip then there is no chip

[3ba11]

If there is no Pip then there is no chip


You're taking a coincidence and weaponizing it

What if Jordans sidekick averaged 13 ppg? Would you still be bragging about him?

Because Pippen basically did that - Pippen averaged 15.7 on 40% in 2 Finals and 19.0 on 42% for his Finals career.. So Jordan had to win a bunch of rings with his sidekick completely wetting the bed (17 on 41% for entire 96-98' Playoffs... lowest-ever efficiency & advanced stats in 93' Playoffs).

And it's the efficiency that tells the story of Pippen's inability to handle a 2nd option load... aka 16 on 50% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed.

[3ba11]

Because Hakeem was the one defending Ewing. Not Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley. That's you're problem bro. You're comparisons are extremely flawed. You need to stop looking at these situations in a vacuum.


You made my point with the bolded above - Jordan wouldn't be defended by Hakeem, so he would do much better than Ewing's 18 on 35%, and therefore win easily.

Ewing's 18 on 35% nearly beat Hakeem, so Jordan would obviously destroy 94' Hakeem, until Drexler arrives in 95' - then it would be a legit contest..

Heck, 95' Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the Finals - so that matches Pippen without Drexler, which means those Rockets were more stacked.. But Jordan won 3 Finals against teams that had more all-stars, so overcoming talent deficits was standard for him.

[tpols]

That is true. Pippen got destroyed by Ewing in the semis, and Ewing got destroyed by Hakeem in the Finals. And that series came down to the wire. MJ could've put up 22 PPG on 40% shooting and he'd still win. We know he'd drop 35 on 50% though so they likely win in 5 or 6.

[3ba11]

That is true. Pippen got destroyed by Ewing in the semis, and Ewing got destroyed by Hakeem in the Finals. And that series came down to the wire. MJ could've put up 22 PPG on 40% shooting and he'd still win. We know he'd drop 35 on 50% though so they likely win in 5 or 6.


MJ could've won with Pippen's 22 on 40% because MJ wouldn't do this with the game on the line:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif


Basketball 101: never foul a jumpshooter. Ball players learn this in elementary school.. literally

[8Ball]

Pippen led those bulls to 55 wins.

Jordan has yet to lead a team to 50 wins by himself.

[3ba11]

Pippen led those bulls to 55 wins.

Jordan has yet to lead a team to 50 wins by himself.


He destroyed a goat dynasty in less than 2 years by leading a potential 4-peat team to 55 wins and 2nd Round loss, and then having a .500 ballclub in 95' before MJ returned to restore a goat caliber (another 3-peat).

[SouBeachTalents]

He destroyed a goat dynasty in less than 2 years by leading a potential 4-peat team to 55 wins and 2nd Round loss, and then having a .500 ballclub in 95' before MJ returned to restore a goat caliber (another 3-peat).
The Bulls won less playoff games with Jordan in '95 than they did without him in '94

[3ba11]

The Bulls won less playoff games with Jordan in '95 than they did without him in '94


Because Pippen wet the bed with 19 on 40% against the 95' Magic

Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it - look it up

[SouBeachTalents]

Because Pippen wet the bed with 19 on 40% against the 95' Magic

Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it - look it up
Yep, all Pippen's fault

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/adamosgp/Magic%20GIFs/th_the-steal-o.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LargeShamelessFireant-max-1mb.gif

[ShawkFactory]

Go back and watch Game 3 of the 93' ECF (the game you think that Pippen bailed out MJ)..

You'll see that the Knicks were ceding the game from the start - they were down 15 after one quarter and the game was over.. MJ had 8 points and 6 assists in that quarter, while Pippen had 6 points and 0 assists - so MJ won the game early and it was a blowout after that where Jordan/Pippen weren't even needed.

this is why anyone THAT ACTUALLY WATCHED THOSE GAMES understands that Pippen was frequently more of a role player and never saved or won any game - the stats confirm this (he often had defensive role player stats).. Pippen was forced into a 2nd option role, but his worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the load most of the time (see the 93' Playoffs, 96-98' Playoffs, 99-03' Playoffs, 88-90' Playoffs, or the chart in previous post above)..

Game 5. That was obviously the swing game of the series

[tpols]

Yep, all Pippen's fault

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/adamosgp/Magic%20GIFs/th_the-steal-o.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LargeShamelessFireant-max-1mb.gif

19 on 40% is Mo Williams production. You would NEVER call that elite.

[SouBeachTalents]

19 on 40% is Mo Williams production. You would NEVER call that elite.
Pippen averaged 19/10/6 on 52%TS, Penny averaged 19/4/8 on 55%TS, so even if you give Penny the edge there's not some huge gulf in efficiency or production. The difference in that series was Horace Grant, ironic for a guy who I'm sure OP's labeled as a scrub for 7 years :lol

[tpols]

Pippen averaged 19/10/6 on 52%TS, Penny averaged 19/4/8 on 55%TS, so even if you give Penny the edge there's not some huge gulf in efficiency or production. The difference in that series was Horace Grant, ironic for a guy who I'm sure OP's labeled as a scrub for 7 years :lol

Pippen did that too many times though. Late 80s, '93, '94 significantly outplayed by Ewing (Pat knew), the whole 2nd 3peat averaging 16 PPG on terrible shooting, failed collusion with Barkley on the Rockets, '00 GOAT choke.

And the media has this guy ranked over guys like David Robinson and Charles Barkley.

He's easily the most overrated player of all time.

[imdaman99]

False. There is no guarantee. I always thought MJ was their best player so I don't troll on and on about the contrary. But I was pretty damn sure Pip was their most important player for the team's success. Most everyone else on the team would struggle without Pippen, obviously Jordan would still dominate, might even average 40. But no, I don't think you should peddle that MJ beats NY in 94 playoffs, they literally went 6 with the entire team and fought tooth and nail the year before.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen did that too many times though. Late 80s, '93, '94 significantly outplayed by Ewing (Pat knew), the whole 2nd 3peat averaging 16 PPG on terrible shooting, failed collusion with Barkley on the Rockets, '00 GOAT choke.

And the media has this guy ranked over guys like David Robinson and Charles Barkley.

He's easily the most overrated player of all time.
What's crazy though is in the years you specified, at least regarding their title years, Pippen outplayed the opposing teams 2nd option in virtually every series. The only instances I'd say Pippen was outplayed was by Payton in the '96 Finals and Penny in the '96 ECF, and even in regards to Penny Pippen averaged more assists, rebounds, steals, less turnovers and played much better defense.

I'm with you, ranking Pippen in the top 25 is a tier too high for him, personally, I've got him somewhere in the 30-35 range. Pippen obv never had the scoring gear that perimeter superstars typically do, but in addition to being an excellent all around player he was arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever, and did a lot of things that don't show up in the stat sheet, a fact I feel you, 3ball and the other Pippen detractors completely ignore.

[AirBonner]

I think Pippen is on Paul Pierce level

[3ba11]

What's crazy though is in the years you specified, at least regarding their title years, Pippen outplayed the opposing teams 2nd option in virtually every series. The only instances I'd say Pippen was outplayed was by Payton in the '96 Finals and Penny in the '96 ECF, and even in regards to Penny Pippen averaged more assists, rebounds, steals, less turnovers and played much better defense.

I'm with you, ranking Pippen in the top 25 is a tier too high for him, personally, I've got him somewhere in the 30-35 range. Pippen obv never had the scoring gear that perimeter superstars typically do, but in addition to being an excellent all around player he was arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever, and did a lot of things that don't show up in the stat sheet, a fact I feel you, 3ball and the other Pippen detractors completely ignore.


93' Pippen had the worst advanced playoff stats of any winning sidekick in 3-pointer history, including the lowest PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 - the only exceptions are 89' Dumars (lower VORP) and 94' Horry (lower PER).. Pippen also shot 50.0 true shooting, which is 1 of the 7 worst efficiencies for a winning sidekick (pippen has 3 of the 7 worst efficiencies - 93', 96', 98')..

In the 93' Finals, he shot 45.9 true shooting and forced MJ to average 41 ppg, while being arguably outplayed by Majerle (gamescore, efficiency) and letting his matchup overperform the series and personally win Game 5 (dumas).. Ultimately, Pippen's horrific efficiency shows he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, and he had bad efficiency in the 88-90' Playoffs, 93' Playoffs, 96-98' Playoffs, and 99-03' Playoffs, aka his entire career except 1991.. Even in 92' his debacle against X-man nearly derailed the 3-peat...

And he was outplayed all the time, such as the 88-90' Playoffs, 92' ECSF, 93' 1st Round, and the entire 96-03' Playoffs - he's literally the worst playoff performer of all time.. Jordan won 6 titles with Pandemic Pippen

[SaintzFury13]

Go back and watch Game 3 of the 93' ECF (the game you think that Pippen bailed out MJ)..

You'll see that the Knicks were ceding the game from the start - they were down 15 after one quarter and the game was over.. MJ had 8 points and 6 assists in that quarter, while Pippen had 6 points and 0 assists - so MJ won the game early and it was a blowout after that where Jordan/Pippen weren't even needed.

this is why anyone THAT ACTUALLY WATCHED THOSE GAMES understands that Pippen was frequently more of a role player and never saved or won any game - the stats confirm this (he often had defensive role player stats).. Pippen was forced into a 2nd option role, but his worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the load most of the time (see the 93' Playoffs, 96-98' Playoffs, 99-03' Playoffs, 88-90' Playoffs, or the chart in previous post above)..

You didn't even watch the 2009 Playoffs. Now you expect us to believe you watched any of the playoffs from the 90s?

[3ba11]

You didn't even watch the 2009 Playoffs. Now you expect us to believe you watched any of the playoffs from the 90s?


93' Pippen had the worst advanced playoff stats of any winning sidekick in 3-pointer history, including the lowest PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 - the only exceptions are 89' Dumars (lower VORP) and 94' Horry (lower PER).. Pippen also shot 50.0 true shooting, which is 1 of the 7 worst efficiencies for a winning sidekick (pippen has 3 of the 7 worst efficiencies - 93', 96', 98')..

In the 93' Finals, he shot 45.9 true shooting and forced MJ to average 41 ppg, while being arguably outplayed by Majerle (gamescore, efficiency) and letting his matchup overperform the series and personally win Game 5 (dumas).. Ultimately, Pippen's horrific efficiency shows he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, and he had bad efficiency in the 88-90' Playoffs, 93' Playoffs, 96-98' Playoffs, and 99-03' Playoffs, aka his entire career except 1991.. Even in 92' his debacle against X-man nearly derailed the 3-peat...

And he was outplayed all the time, such as the 88-90' Playoffs, 92' ECSF, 93' 1st Round, and the entire 96-03' Playoffs - he's literally the worst playoff performer of all time.. Jordan won 6 titles with Pandemic Pippen

[97 bulls]

93' Pippen had the worst advanced playoff stats of any winning sidekick in 3-pointer history, including the lowest PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 - the only exceptions are 89' Dumars (lower VORP) and 94' Horry (lower PER).. Pippen also shot 50.0 true shooting, which is 1 of the 7 worst efficiencies for a winning sidekick (pippen has 3 of the 7 worst efficiencies - 93', 96', 98')..

In the 93' Finals, he shot 45.9 true shooting and forced MJ to average 41 ppg, while being arguably outplayed by Majerle (gamescore, efficiency) and letting his matchup overperform the series and personally win Game 5 (dumas).. Ultimately, Pippen's horrific efficiency shows he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, and he had bad efficiency in the 88-90' Playoffs, 93' Playoffs, 96-98' Playoffs, and 99-03' Playoffs, aka his entire career except 1991.. Even in 92' his debacle against X-man nearly derailed the 3-peat...

And he was outplayed all the time, such as the 88-90' Playoffs, 92' ECSF, 93' 1st Round, and the entire 96-03' Playoffs - he's literally the worst playoff performer of all time.. Jordan won 6 titles with Pandemic Pippen

Compare the advanced stats of the 96 Bulls vs the 96 Sonics.

[3ba11]

Compare the advanced stats of the 96 Bulls vs the 96 Sonics.


* 93' Pippen had worse advanced playoff stats than 14' Wade.

* 96' Pippen had the worst-ever Finals performance for a sidekick and was destroyed by Kemp, Payton and Schrempf

* MJ won the 93' and 96-98' titles in spite of Pippen.. He also won the 98' title with Kukoc starting at PF, and the 97' title with Rodman averaging 4/8 for entire playoffs

* the GOAT had #1 offenses despite literally the worst offensive help that any NBA team ever had, aka 4 on 5 with Rodman and Pippen averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM&t=305s

Pippen hitting the clutch shot to eliminate the Knicks in '93, outperformed MJ in that 2nd half too. (5:04 mark)

[97 bulls]

You made my point with the bolded above - Jordan wouldn't be defended by Hakeem, so he would do much better than Ewing's 18 on 35%, and therefore win easily.

Ewing's 18 on 35% nearly beat Hakeem, so Jordan would obviously destroy 94' Hakeem, until Drexler arrives in 95' - then it would be a legit contest..

Heck, 95' Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the Finals - so that matches Pippen without Drexler, which means those Rockets were more stacked.. But Jordan won 3 Finals against teams that had more all-stars, so overcoming talent deficits was standard for him.

And again, you can't make these kind of declarations in a vacuum. Neither Longley nor Cartwright were considered to be an offensive threat like Ewing, maybe the Rockets have Olajuwan focus more on MJ. Maybe the Rockets allow MJ to score and shut everybody else down like the Celtics and Bucks used to do. Pippen approached the game in a totally different way from MJ. MJ saw himself as the weapon, Pippen saw the team as a weapon. The problem with the 94 Bulls was that they didn't have another guy that could create his own shot. Cartwright couldn't, neither could Grant, Armstrong, or Myers. I don't think it was that Pippen couldn't close out games, he was just gassed by the 4th trying to do his part to keep the Bulls competitive.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM&t=305s

Pippen hitting the clutch shot to eliminate the Knicks in '93, outperformed MJ in that 2nd half too. (5:04 mark)


^^^ that shot extended to an 8 point lead (5:53 mark), aka nothingburger

he was horrible in those playoffs despite a viable series against the Knicks

Pippen was "Pandemic P" for an entire career, despite the one-offs you cite

[97 bulls]

* 93' Pippen had worse advanced playoff stats than 14' Wade.

* 96' Pippen had the worst-ever Finals performance for a sidekick and was destroyed by Kemp, Payton and Schrempf

* MJ won the 93' and 96-98' titles in spite of Pippen.. He also won the 98' title with Kukoc starting at PF, and the 97' title with Rodman averaging 4/8 for entire playoffs

* the GOAT had #1 offenses despite literally the worst offensive help that any NBA team ever had, aka 4 on 5 with Rodman and Pippen averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs

That wasn't what I told you to do. Again, please post the advanced stats for the Bulls and Sonics for the 96 Finals.

[3ba11]

That wasn't what I told you to do. Again, please post the advanced stats for the Bulls and Sonics for the 96 Finals.


We don't have advanced stats for the Finals, only the playoffs overall

We have the raw stats for the Finals and they show that Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% - no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for that

[1987_Lakers]

^^^ that shot extended to an 8 point lead (5:53 mark), aka nothingburger

he was horrible in those playoffs despite a viable series against the Knicks

Pippen outplayed MJ in that game, especially in the 2nd half, notice how the reporter interviewed Pippen when the game ended instead of MJ, everyone knew who was the MVP in that game.

[97 bulls]

^^^ that shot extended to an 8 point lead (5:53 mark), aka nothingburger

he was horrible in those playoffs despite a viable series against the Knicks

Pippen was "Pandemic P" for an entire career, despite the one-offs you cite

GTFOH. Pippen hit the clutch basket I'm the final minute. Not to mention the Charles Smith Blocks

[97 bulls]

We don't have advanced stats for the Finals, only the playoffs overall

We have the raw stats for the Finals and they show that Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% - no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for that

Ok. Post the playoffs.

[3ba11]

Ok. Post the playoffs.


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2


93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4

[97 bulls]

PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2


93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4

Again, that's not what I asked you. Show the advanced stats from the 96 Finals. For both teams.

[3ba11]

Again, that's not what I asked you. Show the advanced stats from the 96 Finals. For both teams.


We don't have that for the Finals, but Pippen had a 106 ORTG and 42.9 TS... and 13 game score (below payton and kemp)

and he averaged 15.7 on 34%.. so he was horrific

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Show the advanced stats from the 96 Finals. For both teams.

Pippen posted a 6 BPM, which is your impact on a box score.

GP posted a 5

Mike and Kemp were clearly the best 2 players in that series. And by no coincidence, posted the highest BPM.

Pippen's advanced numbers suggest he was better than his raw numbers. You gotta think if RAPM or RPM were around back then, Pippen's defense would also be more appreciated. Of course people who actually watched that series know the deal.

[97 bulls]

We don't have that for the Finals, but Pippen had a 106 ORTG and 42.9 TS... and 13 game score (below payton and kemp)

and he averaged 15.7 on 34%.. so he was horrific

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

[3ba11]

Pippen posted a 6 BPM, which is your impact on a box score.

GP posted a 5

Mike and Kemp were clearly the best 2 players in that series. And by no coincidence, posted the highest BPM.

Pippen's advanced numbers suggest he was better than his raw numbers. You gotta think if RAPM or RPM were around back then, Pippen's defense would also be more appreciated. Of course people who actually watched that series know the deal.


Pippen's advanced stats are horrible, namely PER, WS/48, TS and ORTG

BPM is a steals-counter and measures team defense - Stockton is 8th all-time in BPM, while Pippen had the lowest BPM and WS/48 ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs

[97 bulls]

Pippen's advanced stats are horrible, namely PER, WS/48, TS and ORTG

BPM is a steals-counter and measures team defense - Stockton is 8th all-time in BPM, while Pippen had the lowest BPM and WS/48 ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs

And again, please compare the advanced stats for the 96 NBA Finals. I sent you the link.

[3ba11]

And again, please compare the advanced stats for the 96 NBA Finals. I sent you the link.


I looked at it and the Sonics cast was clearly superior by any standard or metric

Now respond to the fact that Pippen had horrible performance all the time - an entire career of Pandemic P

Respond to that...

And no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 40% in multiple Finals or 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, or the lowest advanced stats ever in the 93' Playoffs, or 19 on 42% in 6 Finals

[97 bulls]

I looked at it and the Sonics cast was clearly superior by any standard or metric
That's not true. They had better offensive advanced stats. And the Bulls led in the most important state. THEY WON!!!!!



Now respond to the fact that Pippen had horrible performance all the time - an entire career of Pandemic P

Respond to that...

And no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 40% in multiple Finals or 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, or the lowest advanced stats ever in the 93' Playoffs, or 19 on 42% in 6 Finals
And once again, this isn't true because the Bulls won. The W-L column will trump any statistics you out out bro. You can be better in every advanced metric there is, but it don't mean a darn thing without Wins.

[3ba11]

That's not true. They had better offensive advanced stats. And the Bulls led in the most important state. THEY WON!!!!!



And once again, this isn't true because the Bulls won. The W-L column will trump any statistics you out out bro. You can be better in every advanced metric there is, but it don't mean a darn thing without Wins.


the stats show that the Bulls won in spite of Pippen's horrible play because MJ dominated and got a 3-0 lead.

Pippen was wetting the bed while MJ averaged 31 on 46% to get a 3-0 lead - that's the historical record

[97 bulls]

the stats show that the Bulls won in spite of Pippen's horrible play because MJ dominated and got a 3-0 lead.

Pippen was wetting the bed while MJ averaged 31 on 46% to get a 3-0 lead - that's the historical record

Bro. Pippen here is what Pippen did to contribute in 96

Orb% 2nd
Drb% 2nd
Rbd% 2nd
Asst% 1st
Stls% 1st (for starters) Randy Brown and Jud Buechler hardly played
Blk% 2nd
TO% 2nd (fewest)
And led the Bulls in defensive rating as well as the 96 playoffs.

All this while playing hurt.

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/05/sports/partly-healthy-wholly-potent-pippen-presents-a-special-challenge-for-the-knicks.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1996-05-14-9605140158-story,amp.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1996-06-16-1996168128-story,amp.html

[3ba11]

Bro. Pippen here is what Pippen did to contribute in 96

Orb% 2nd
Drb% 2nd
Rbd% 2nd
Asst% 1st
Stls% 1st (for starters) Randy Brown and Jud Buechler hardly played
Blk% 2nd
TO% 2nd (fewest)
And led the Bulls in defensive rating as well as the 96 playoffs.

All this while playing hurt.

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/05/sports/partly-healthy-wholly-potent-pippen-presents-a-special-challenge-for-the-knicks.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1996-05-14-9605140158-story,amp.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1996-06-16-1996168128-story,amp.html


Thank you for confirming that Pippen was a defensive role player.

No amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 34%... AD or Paul George would get killed for that and not be considered a star..

But no one noticed back then because there was no social media and it was all about MJ - he was the only guy held responsible for winning

[97 bulls]

Thank you for confirming that Pippen was a defensive role player.

Ultimately, no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 34%... AD or Paul George would get killed for that and not be considered a star..

But no one noticed back then because there was no social media and it was all about MJ - he was the only guy held responsible for winning

Lol. There's more to basketball than just scoring. Pippen was known for his versatility. That's what the advanced stats show. Versatility. He impacted the game in a myriad of ways. All while being hurt. That's why Pip is always rated top 20-25.

[3ba11]

Lol. There's more to basketball than just scoring. Pippen was known for his versatility. That's what the advanced stats show. Versatility. He impacted the game in a myriad of ways. All while being hurt. That's why Pip is always rated top 20-25.


2nd options must score or they're just defensive role players..

So no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 34%... AD or Paul George would get killed for that and not be considered a star..

And Pippen's advanced stats were weak, so I don't know why you would bring that up.. He had the worst advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs.. He also has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98')

Imagine playing 4 on 5 with Rodman and having your sidekick do this (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) - that's the worst offensive help of any team... Ever .. yet the goat won 6 chips with it

[97 bulls]

2nd options must score or they're just defensive role players..

So no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 34%... AD or Paul George would get killed for that and not be considered a star..

And Pippen's advanced stats were weak, so I don't know why you would bring that up.. He had the worst advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs.. He also has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98')

Imagine playing 4 on 5 with Rodman and having your sidekick do this (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) - that's the worst offensive help of any team... Ever .. yet the goat won 6 chips with it

Bro. There's a myriad of advanced stats. You FOUCUS on a few. Not all. I understand. Scoring is the only thing that matter to you. It's also only mattered to coaches like Don Nelson and Mike Dantoni. How did that work out for them?

[MadDog]

Bro. There's a myriad of advanced stats. You FOUCUS on a few. Not all. I understand. Scoring is the only thing that matter to you. It's also only mattered to coaches like Don Nelson and Mike Dantoni. How did that work out for them?

That's actually a good point lol. Scoring can be overrated, particularly if its your ONLY focus. Pippen's scoring is generally underrated though. During the Bulls championship runs, Pippen outscored most second options. In the 91 playoffs, Pippen outscored his opponents number 2, and with the exception of one series, outscored every number 1. In the 92 playoffs, Pippen outscored every number 2 with the exception of one series, and outscored the #1 option in 2/4 of their series. In the 93 playoffs, he outscored every number 2 and outscored the number 1 in the seminfinals.

Pippen's scoring took a dip during the second Bulls 3-peat, but he still managed to score alright(relative to the era). In the 96 playoffs, Pippen outscored the other teams number 2 in half the Bulls series, and outscored the number one versus Miami. In the 97 playoffs, Pippen outscored the #2 in three of the Bulls 4 playoff series, and outscored the #1 during the semifinals. In the 98 playoffs, Pippen outscored all his opponents number 2s and equaled their number 1s twice.

Pippen wasn't a high volume scorer, and had a couple of poor shooting series - but in correlation with that era, his scoring was just fine.

[Hey Yo]

2nd options must score or they're just defensive role players..

So no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 15.7 on 34%... AD or Paul George would get killed for that and not be considered a star..

And Pippen's advanced stats were weak, so I don't know why you would bring that up.. He had the worst advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs.. He also has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98')

Imagine playing 4 on 5 with Rodman and having your sidekick do this (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) - that's the worst offensive help of any team... Ever .. yet the goat won 6 chips with it

If it was 4 on 5 with Rodman, then why the multiple FMVP votes for him and his 7ppg?

[97 bulls]

If it was 4 on 5 with Rodman, then why the multiple FMVP for him and his 7ppg?

Great question. It was never 4 on 5. If they left Rodman open, he's gonna kill you on the offensive boards. Which is even more demoralizing to a team because they have to play defense again.

It's why I feel 3ball doesn't know basketball.

[3ba11]

That's actually a good point lol. Scoring can be overrated, particularly if its your ONLY focus. Pippen's scoring is generally underrated though. During the Bulls championship runs, Pippen outscored most second options. In the 91 playoffs, Pippen outscored his opponents number 2, and with the exception of one series, outscored every number 1. In the 92 playoffs, Pippen outscored every number 2 with the exception of one series, and outscored the #1 option in 2/4 of their series. In the 93 playoffs, he outscored every number 2 and outscored the number 1 in the seminfinals.

Pippen's scoring took a dip during the second Bulls 3-peat, but he still managed to score alright(relative to the era). In the 96 playoffs, Pippen outscored the other teams number 2 in half the Bulls series, and outscored the number one versus Miami. In the 97 playoffs, Pippen outscored the #2 in three of the Bulls 4 playoff series, and outscored the #1 during the semifinals. In the 98 playoffs, Pippen outscored all his opponents #2s and equaled their #1s twice.

Pippen wasn't a high volume scorer, and had a couple of poor shooting series - but in correlation with that era, his scoring was just fine.


Outscoring the opposing #2 half the time is horrible when Lebron's sidekicks outscore the entire league in the playoffs (20' AD), or the opposing #1 option (11' Wade and 16' Kyrie)..

Furthermore, every winning sidekick in 3-pointer history was an elite 1st option (Kobe, Curry, Kareem, etc) or won FMVP (Dumars, Parker).. The only exceptions are true 2nd options like Pippen, Klay, Pau, Rip Hamilton, Jason Terry, Lowry and Horry - every other winning sidekick was an elite 1st option or FMVP.

And it isn't just the scoring; it's the efficiency - 16 on 50% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed.. Pippen had Westbrook efficiency but only half the production across the board - he has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98') and nearly half his series were below 16 on 43%.. He was also outscored by opposing #2's in half the series of his career.

[MadDog]

Outscoring the opposing #2 half the time is horrible when Lebron's sidekicks outscore the entire league in the playoffs (20' AD), or the opposing #1 option (11' Wade and 16' Kyrie)..

Furthermore, every winning sidekick in 3-pointer history was an elite 1st option (Kobe, Curry, Kareem, etc) or won FMVP (Dumars, Parker).. The only exceptions are true 2nd options like Pippen, Klay, Pau, Rip Hamilton, Jason Terry, Lowry and Horry - every other winning sidekick was an elite 1st option or FMVP.

And it isn't just the scoring; it's the efficiency - 16 on 50% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed.. Pippen had Westbrook efficiency but only half the production across the board - he has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98') and nearly half his series were below 16 on 43%.. He was also outscored by opposing #2's in half the series of his career.

Pippen outscored the opposing #2s most of the time. Not half. The times he didn't, the differential was minuscule. Jordan didn't necessarily need an ELITE "alpha" scorer. Not at the time where Pippen's scoring rate outproduced the other opponents #2. That means Jordan & Pippen routinely outscored their respective #1 and #2s. Which also means they did their job.

:confusedshrug:

Yes, Pippen had some poor shooting series. I've always said on here that Pippen was a better scorer during the early to mid 90s. Look at his 91 playoff run. Pippen outscored all #2s and other than one series, every 1st option. He was also efficient in doing so.

[97 bulls]

Pippen outscored the opposing #2s most of the time. Not half. The times he didn't, the differential was minuscule. Jordan didn't necessarily need an ELITE "alpha" scorer. Not at the time where Pippen's scoring rate outproduced the other opponents #2. That means Jordan & Pippen routinely outscored their respective #1 and #2s. Which also means they did their job.

:confusedshrug:

Yes, Pippen had some poor shooting series. I've always said on here that Pippen was a better scorer during the early to mid 90s. Look at his 91 playoff run. Pippen outscored all #2s and other than one series, every 1st option. He was also efficient in doing so.

He doesn't care about that bro. Again, I can't understand why Pippen can't get a pass for playing hurt. When guys like Bird do.

[MadDog]

He doesn't care about that bro. Again, I can't understand why Pippen can't get a pass for playing hurt. When guys like Bird do.

Don't get why people wont admit the obvious. Call Pippen a "bum" all you want, but the facts don't care about your opinion. As far as injuries are concerned, I cant give him a pass for playing "hurt". Not for the entire second peat. :oldlol: Dudes play hurt often and aren't given a pass. What I will say though is that I've become more understanding of Pippen's back injury. G6 of the 98 finals, he was coming in out of the game and clearly not moving right. If Pippen ever deserved an excuse its right there.

[97 bulls]

Don't get why people wont admit the obvious. Call Pippen a "bum" all you want, but the facts don't care about your opinion. As far as injuries are concerned, I cant give him a pass for playing "hurt". Not for the entire second peat. :oldlol: Dudes play hurt often and aren't given a pass. What I will say though is that I've become more understanding of Pippen's back injury. G6 of the 98 finals, he was coming in out of the game and clearly not moving right. If Pippen ever deserved an excuse its right there.

I agree, But why do guys like Bird and Thomas get slack for "playing hurt"?

[97 bulls]

And now that I think about it. Getting a pass for playing hurt isn't necessarily the right way to frame it.

[MadDog]

I agree, But why do guys like Bird and Thomas get slack for "playing hurt"?

You mean praised? Its all situational dude. I know Isiah for example played on a sprained ankle, and had a historic finals game. He definitely got praise there. Bird also managed to score efficient while playing with a bad back. Again, everything is circumstantial. I agree there are double standards though.

[97 bulls]

You mean praised? Its all situational dude. I know Isiah for example played on a sprained ankle, and had a historic finals game. He definitely got praise there. Bird also managed to score efficient while playing with a bad back. Again, everything is circumstantial. I agree there are double standards though.

I'm more talking about 91.

[MadDog]

I'm more talking about 91.

I wouldn't give him one. :confusedshrug: The "Pistons were old" narrative is a weak one.

[Phoenix]

I wouldn't give him one. :confusedshrug: The "Pistons were old" narrative is a weak one.

Yes, because people act like they got swept in the first round. They lost in the conference finals to a team that clearly was gaining on them. No they weren't the 89 or 90 Pistons, but even if Isiah was completely healthy it's at most a 5 game series. It was the Bulls time on the horizon and that was obvious after the 90 playoffs.

[MadDog]

Yes, because people act like they got swept in the first round. They lost in the conference finals to a team that clearly was gaining on them. No they weren't the 89 or 90 Pistons, but even if Isiah was completely healthy it's at most a 5 game series. It was the Bulls time on the horizon and that was obvious after the 90 playoffs.

Yep. I remember reading somewhere the average age of Detroit was like 30. That's the same age 93 Jordan was peaking. :oldlol: Their three best players were also in their 20s. Old and decrepit!