Paul Pierce vs Scottie Pippen

[AirBonner]

Pierce: 19/3/5 for career
Pippen: 16/5/6for career

Pierce slight edge on offense Pippen significant edge on defense. Who was better?

[3ba11]

Pippen with MJ = HOF

Pippen with anyone else = Shawn Marion, Iggy, Jeff Green type of slasher/defender/athlete, according to the mainstream (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s), while the stats confirm (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg)

Peak Pippen would be 4th option on the 08' Celtics and that's barely above 5th option Rondo.. barely.. infact, Rondo is the choice in the clutch as we saw in the 2010 ECSF when he personally handed Lebron his ass.. (pippen never did that to anyone)

[SaintzFury13]

^Ignore the retard.

Pippen, easily.

[3ba11]

^Ignore the retard.

Pippen, easily.


Pierce alongside MJ has 8 titles and a couple FMVP's.. MJ doesn't have to win every FMVP - he only did that with Pippen because Pippen's performance was weak...

(fyi - anyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 for at least one of the Finals - but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win with Pippen)..

I'm giving Pierce 2 more titles than Pippen because I'm assuming Pierce doesn't average 19 on 40% in the 95' ECSF to lose that series, and I'm assuming Pierce beats Ewing in 94' and wins that title given how 21.7 on 40% nearly beat Ewing, and Ewing's 18 on 35% nearly beat the Rockets (the weakest champion of all-time).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I got Pippen. I don't see how Pierce's offense is good enough to make up for the defensive gap, his one playoff year when he went over 25PPG in 2003 he couldn't even hit 40% FG.

Also Pippen has way better accolades with three different all 1st teams. Pierce is sitting on just one 2nd team wow that's pretty surprising actually.

Pierce is the better 1st option scorer but i wouldn't see him as an ideal clear cut 1st option scorer on a title team. Pippen as 2nd best player on a team is always going to be better then Paul Pierce as 2nd best i think.

Pierce is a better shooter and way better at getting to the freethrow line, Pippen is better at everything else.

[3ba11]

I got Pippen. I don't see how Pierce's offense is good enough to make up for the defensive gap, his one playoff year when he went over 25PPG in 2003 he couldn't even hit 40% FG.

Also Pippen has way better accolades with three different all 1st teams. Pierce is sitting on just one 2nd team wow that's pretty surprising actually.

Pierce is the better 1st option scorer but i wouldn't see him as an ideal clear cut 1st option scorer on a title team. Pippen as 2nd best player on a team is always going to be better then Paul Pierce as 2nd best i think.

Pierce is a better shooter and way better at getting to the freethrow line, Pippen is better at everything else.


Pippen's accolades were due to the winning spotlight of winning with MJ and not matched by his performance - the reality is that no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 17 on 41% - for example, no amount of defense or 5 APG would make AD or PG13 stars if they averaged 17 on 41%

Pippen's worst-ever efficiency proved that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load.. Pierce would've been much better alongside MJ and completely dominated in that role - anyone would alongside MJ with zero pressure

[SaintzFury13]

Pierce alongside MJ has 8 titles and a couple FMVP's.. MJ doesn't have to win every FMVP - he only did that with Pippen because Pippen's performance was weak...

(fyi - anyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 for at least one of the Finals - but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win with Pippen)..

I'm giving Pierce 2 more titles than Pippen because I'm assuming Pierce doesn't average 19 on 40% in the 95' ECSF to lose that series, and I'm assuming Pierce beats Ewing in 94' and wins that title given how 21.7 on 40% nearly beat Ewing, and Ewing's 18 on 35% nearly beat the Rockets (the weakest champion of all-time).

If Pierce is Jordan's teammate instead of Pippen, Jordan doesn't win 6 titles and probably misses half of the finals he made it to.

You are a retard.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen's accolades were due to the winning spotlight of winning with MJ and not matched by his performance - the reality is that no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 17 on 41% - for example, no amount of defense or 5 APG would make AD or PG13 stars if they averaged 17 on 41%

Pippen's worst-ever efficiency proved that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load.. Pierce would've been much better alongside MJ and completely dominated in that role - anyone would alongside MJ with zero pressure
Funny how someone like Isiah didn't make a single All-NBA Team from 1988-90 with the "winning spotlight", winning b2b titles and making 3 straight Finals while kicking Jordan's ass every season.

If the winning spotlight is so important, why do guys like McHale, Worthy & Parker all have far less All-NBA nods than Pippen?

[3ba11]

Funny how someone like Isiah didn't make a single All-NBA Team from 1988-90 with the "winning spotlight", winning b2b titles and making 3 straight Finals while kicking Jordan's ass every season.

If the winning spotlight is so important, why do guys like McHale, Worthy & Parker all have far less All-NBA nods than Pippen?





All those teams had big 3's or 4's and were a lot more stacked than the Bulls, so the guys you mentioned were often playing 3rd or 4th fiddle to multiple teammates that were top 10 all-time or HOF.

Otoh, Pippen benefitted by being forced into a 2nd option role where he barely had to score but reaped all the accolades of a 1b like Kareem or kobe

he also benefitted from an extended run with MJ that reaped 6 chips that today's fans use to overrate him - the on-paper evaluations of new fans only see the 6 rings and therefore overrate Pippen compared to someone superior like Dirk ir Giannis with 1 ring

Ultimately, Pippen had half the production of Westbrook in all categories, with the same bad efficiency (pippen's calling card).. Pippen was half a Westbrook.

[SaintzFury13]

All those teams had big 3's or 4's and were a lot more stacked than the Bulls, so the guys you mentioned were often playing 3rd or 4th fiddle to multiple teammates that were top 10 all-time or HOF.

Otoh, Pippen benefitted by being forced into a 2nd option role where he barely had to score but reaped all the accolades of a 1b like Kareem or kobe

he also benefitted from an extended run with MJ that reaped 6 chips that today's fans use to overrate him - the on-paper evaluations of new fans only see the 6 rings and therefore overrate Pippen compared to someone superior like Dirk ir Giannis with 1 ring

When the hell did McHale EVER play third or fourth fiddle to anyone at any point in his prime?

[3ba11]

When the hell did McHale EVER play third or fourth fiddle to anyone at any point in his prime?


84' title.. he was 4th option behind HOF's Bird, Parish, and DJ in the playoffs and Finals

[SaintzFury13]

84' title.. he was 4th option behind HOF's Bird, Parish, and DJ in the playoffs and Finals

His PRIME, you dumbass. Not a season where he wasn't even a starter.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen had the greater career, and was obviously better all-around.

Depending on the year, though, I would take Pierce over Pippen. And vice versa. Truth's volume scoring IMO makes the prime debate a good one.

[Sportal]

Pippen with MJ = HOF

Pippen with anyone else = Shawn Marion, Iggy, Jeff Green type of slasher/defender/athlete, according to the mainstream (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s), while the stats confirm (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg)

Peak Pippen would be 4th option on the 08' Celtics and that's barely above 5th option Rondo.. barely.. infact, Rondo is the choice in the clutch as we saw in the 2010 ECSF when he personally handed Lebron his ass.. (pippen never did that to anyone)

Why do you do this when there is factual evidence... With the Bulls stacked like they were, when Jordan left, Pippen and the Bulls won how many fewer games? Marion, Green, Iggy... They aren't doing that. So stop it.

[dankok8]

It's not a bad comparison with Pierce being the better scorer and Pippen the better defender. I also think Pippen was better at running the offense but Pierce could close games with his shotmaking. It's tough and which guy you go for depends on the team makeup but I am pretty sure I would pick Pippen a bit more often. He is just so versatile. Pierce is a better scorer but I don't think a team wins a title if Pierce is their first option.

[72-10]

Pippen wasn't counted among the best on-ball defenders, I think he'd have trouble guarding Pierce's shoulder fake/crossover that he then steps into a jumper.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen had the greater career, and was obviously better all-around.

Depending on the year, though, I would take Pierce over Pippen. And vice versa. Truth's volume scoring IMO makes the prime debate a good one.

It's an excellent debate. I remember a graphic in 2001 that showed Pierce was one of the best, if not the best, 4th quarter performer. Pierce excelled in the toughest defensive era and doesn't get credit for his peak years the way that he should.

Peak Pierce was 25/7/4/2/1 on 56% TS%. During the playoffs, he was 25/9/5/2/1 on 55% TS%.

I still think Pippen has the edge, but it's probably not as great as some people may think.

[HoopsNY]

If Pierce is Jordan's teammate instead of Pippen, Jordan doesn't win 6 titles and probably misses half of the finals he made it to.

You are a retard.

Are we talking about peak Paul Pierce here? He won a title as a superteam in 2008 and almost won one in 2010. What years does peak Pierce not win it alongside MJ? We saw what MJ did with an injured Pippen in 1996 and 1998, so why would he lose with Pierce?

[Axe]

Pippen wasn't counted among the best on-ball defenders, I think he'd have trouble guarding Pierce's shoulder fake/crossover that he then steps into a jumper.
Lol

[Reggie43]

Pippen easily. Pierce is exactly the 2nd tier volume scorer that Pip would be shutting down at his peak in a head to head matchup.

[Bawkish]

Pippen thrives while playing in a system like the Triangle

Outside of that, he's really just an average offensive scorer

[ELITEpower23]

Pippen out rebounded, assisted, stole, and out-blocked peak MJ during their championship runs.

Let that sink in.

https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZDM6h0/pipSavedJordan.png

[HoopsNY]

Pippen easily. Pierce is exactly the 2nd tier volume scorer that Pip would be shutting down at his peak in a head to head matchup.

"Easily"? That's a stretch. And if Pippen wasn't shutting down Rice, Barkley, Penny, LJ, X-Man, Dumas etc, then why would he shut down Pierce?

[3ba11]

Pierce guarded Kobe well and blocked his shot, while Pippen couldn't guard Kobe at all.

But defense is a team affair so it's irrelevant - given equal team defenses, it's easier to win with an elite-scoring, 1b sidekick like Kobe, Kareem or Pierce, than lower-producing 2nd options like Pippen, Rip or Klay that occasionally have role player stats (and untenable efficiency in Pippen's case).

[Reggie43]

"Easily"? That's a stretch. And if Pippen wasn't shutting down Rice, Barkley, Penny, LJ, X-Man, Dumas etc, then why would he shut down Pierce?

Not sure why youre taking things literally but Pip is the type of player that would defend Pierce the best.

It was an easy pick for me I didnt mean Pip was miles better.

[3ba11]

Not sure why youre taking things literally but Pip is the type of player that would defend Pierce the best.

It was an easy pick for me I didnt mean Pip was miles better.


what aspects of the following statement are inaccurate or misguided?.. Thanks in advance:



given equal team defenses, it's easier to win with an elite-scoring, 1b sidekick like Kobe, Kareem or Pierce, than lower-producing 2nd options like Pippen, Rip or Klay that occasionally have role player stats (and untenable efficiency in Pippen's case)

[HoopsNY]

Not sure why youre taking things literally but Pip is the type of player that would defend Pierce the best.

It was an easy pick for me I didnt mean Pip was miles better.

My bad. I understand.

[Airupthere]

As the number one guy, pierce. But I am biased towards pip so I would go with pippen, if I can have a reliable shooter/scorer in the team.

[3ba11]

As the number one guy, pierce. But I am biased towards pip so I would go with pippen, if I can have a reliable shooter/scorer in the team.


given equal team defenses, it's easier to win with an elite-scoring, 1b sidekick like Kobe, Kareem, Curry or Pierce, than lower-producing 2nd options like Pippen, Rip or Klay that occasionally have role player stats (and untenable efficiency in Pippen's case)

If Pierce was a low-efficiency non-shooter than his scoring wouldn't matter as much, but he's actually an elite jumpshooter that fits with any player type and can make teams really good, especially as a supplementary player - he'd be the perfect 1b

[Jasper]

^Ignore the retard.

Pippen, easily.

10 4 (up until Bron showed up many were considering Pippen the best SF in the history of the league because he worked both sides of the floor at an elite level. )

[3ba11]

10 4 (up until Bron showed up many were considering Pippen the best SF in the history of the league because he worked both sides of the floor at an elite level. )


lol good one

[3ba11]

I'll give Pippen credit for being an "innovator" of the 15/5/5 SF.... the defensive facilitator role... ben simmons with less assists.... draymond with less assists and more of a dunker

[HoopsNY]

10 4 (up until Bron showed up many were considering Pippen the best SF in the history of the league because he worked both sides of the floor at an elite level. )

Who said that? I watched Pippen for almost his entire career and never saw anyone rank him above guys like Bird and Dr. J.

[bizil]

GOAT wise easily Pippen. Peak-prime wise, I'm taking Pierce. Pierce is one of the more underrated SF's of all time! GOAT wise, he's arguably a top 10 GOAT SF. In terms of OVERALL SKILL on the court, he's one of the top 10 SF's of all time FOR SURE! I'm talking scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. After the guys like KD and Kawhi, Pierce's name HAS TO COME UP SOON in terms of overall skill level at the SF spot.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's an excellent debate. I remember a graphic in 2001 that showed Pierce was one of the best, if not the best, 4th quarter performer. Pierce excelled in the toughest defensive era and doesn't get credit for his peak years the way that he should.

Peak Pierce was 25/7/4/2/1 on 56% TS%. During the playoffs, he was 25/9/5/2/1 on 55% TS%.

I still think Pippen has the edge, but it's probably not as great as some people may think.

Bang on

Pierce was fearless in crunchtime and with good reason. His footwork/stepback J was primo and revered around the league.

Pip's defense and playmaking are tough to pass on, sure. But depending on the makeup of your team, Pierce might be the better fit (ie. your team had defensive anchors and good point play). Paul is definitely the superior half-court player, and I trust him more late in games.


GOAT wise easily Pippen. Peak-prime wise, I'm taking Pierce. Pierce is one of the more underrated SF's of all time! GOAT wise, he's arguably a top 10 GOAT SF. In terms of OVERALL SKILL on the court, he's one of the top 10 SF's of all time FOR SURE! I'm talking scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. After the guys like KD and Kawhi, Pierce's name HAS TO COME UP SOON in terms of overall skill level at the SF spot.

Facts

[HoopsNY]

Bang on.

Pierce was fearless in crunchtime and with good reason. His footwork/stepback J was primo and revered around the around.

Pip's defense and playmaking are tough to pass on, sure. But depending on the makeup of your team, Pierce might be the better fit (ie. your team had defensive anchors and good point play). Paul is definitely the superior half-court player, and I trust him more late in games.

Great points. It's tough to put Pierce ahead for me simply because what Pippen did in the '94 and '95 seasons is unique.

Pierce had a good running mate in Walker for all of his playoff seasons prior to the superteam. While Pippen did have a squad coming off of a chip in '94, his '95 season really validates what he did in '94, and that was without MJ and Grant.

He anchored that defense and had that team in playoff contention. I give a lot of weight to that and it just can't be ignored.

[tpols]

Shaq called Paul Pierce "the Truth"... that's where he got his nickname. Guy was methodical in crunch time carrying bums in Boston for most of his career putting up Kobe averages. Got stabbed 9 times and played 82 afterwards. Pippen doesn't have half of Pierces caliber as an alpha. You're comparing a beta utility man to an alpha wolf here.

[ShawkFactory]

Pierce had a greater ability to takeover scoring. Of course. So in that sense he's better.

But in a series where they are matched up on each other the whole time? It's tough but I really think Pip wins the battle. He'd wear him down and I think PP would shoot terribly.

[tpols]

Pierce had a greater ability to takeover scoring. Of course. So in that sense he's better.

But in a series where they are matched up on each other the whole time? It's tough but I really think Pip wins the battle. He'd wear him down and I think PP would shoot terribly.

Pierce shot on Kobe %'s in a brutal defensive climate. Who has Pippen ever locked down specifically? You're falling for media narratives. Even X-Man hung 20 on 50% vs him at his peak. And Paul was much better.

[ShawkFactory]

Pierce shot on Kobe %'s in a brutal defensive climate. Who has Pippen ever locked down specifically? You're falling for media narratives. Even X-Man hung 20 on 50% vs him at his peak. And Paul was much better.

If that helps you :rolleyes:

PP was a very inefficient scorer before the rule change. In 6 playoff series he only had 2 where he shot above 40%. The highest was 44%. Pippen was a relentless athlete and would absolutely wear him down if tasked with guarding him for an entire series. I think he would win the matchup :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

. Pippen would wear Pierce down and I think PP would shoot terribly.





Pippen had the worst playoff efficiency ever for a winning sidekick (stats from ESPN here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg)), so Pierce easily shoots better than Pippen and outplays him just like X-man, Schrempf, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson and many other guys that outscored and outplayed Pippen heads-up.. Heck, a hobbled Worthy did whatever he wanted against Pippen.

So you're dreaming

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen had the worst playoff efficiency ever for a winning sidekick (stats from ESPN here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg)), so Pierce easily shoots better than Pippen and outplays him just like X-man, Schrempf, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson and many other guys that outscored and outplayed Pippen heads-up.. Heck, a hobbled Worthy did whatever he wanted against Pippen.

So you're dreaming

We're not talking about any of that :lol

PP had rough times with long, athletic defenders (as most do). Check his numbers against Lebron: not good. Pippen is exactly the type to give PP, already a proven inefficient scorer in the playoffs, trouble. I believe he would win the matchup over the course of a series, particularly if he were the first option to boost his numbers.

[RogueBorg]

Pippen

[3ba11]

We're not talking about any of that :lol

PP had rough times with long, athletic defenders (as most do). Check his numbers against Lebron: not good. Pippen is exactly the type to give PP, already a proven inefficient scorer in the playoffs, trouble. I believe he would win the matchup over the course of a series, particularly if he were the first option to boost his numbers.


if Schrempf, X-man, Larry Johnson, or Juwan Howard can go off on Pippen, then Pierce will destroy Pippen.. Penny averaged 25 on Pippen

Regarding Pierce vs Lebron - Pierce couldn't go off offensively because he was worn down from defending Lebron... Otoh, Pierce could rest on defense against Pippen, and therefore have his maximum attack on offense.

Furthermore, you're knocking Pierce for efficiency when Lebron is the only guy in history that shot 35% in a playoff series as 1st option, and he did it twice, including versus Pierce in 08'

[RogueBorg]

10 4 (up until Bron showed up many were considering Pippen the best SF in the history of the league because he worked both sides of the floor at an elite level. )

Never once has anyone thought Pippen was the best SF in history. Only you retards on this forum think that.

[3ba11]

Pippen lacked the iso ability or breakdown handle needed to be a high-scoring wing or ball-handler... in ANY era

So he wasn't a real star, and was infact an Iggy/Simmons/Draymond-caliber player that was lucky to coattail 6 rings alongside the GOAT - the stats confirm that he coattailed rings, but the winning spotlight inflated him to a superior ranking than Iggy/Simmons/Draymond despite being exactly that caliber of player

[ShawkFactory]

Pierce couldn't go off offensively because he was worn down from defending Lebron... Otoh, Pierce could rest on defense against Pippen, and therefore have his maximum attack on offense.

Furthermore, you're knocking Pierce for efficiency when Lebron is the only guy in history that shot 35% in a playoff series as 1st option, and he did it twice, including versus Pierce in 08'

Your deflecting isn't going to work :lol

Back on topic: if we're talking Pippen before the constant nagging injuries (95 or so), PP would have to be chasing him all over the place. And he had the strength make things tough on him physically, like a Lebron. Pre rule change Pierce was a proven inefficient playoff scorer and being guarded by Pip wouldn't help things in the slightest.

It'd be a good matchup (again, assuming that Pippen is the #1 option for numbers purposes). But I'm taking Pippen.

[3ba11]

Your deflecting isn't going to work :lol

Back on topic: if we're talking Pippen before the constant nagging injuries (95 or so), PP would have to be chasing him all over the place. And he had the strength make things tough on him physically, like a Lebron. Pre rule change Pierce was a proven inefficient playoff scorer and being guarded by Pip wouldn't help things in the slightest.

It'd be a good matchup (again, assuming that Pippen is the #1 option for numbers purposes). But I'm taking Pippen.


Pippen wasn't a scorer and Pierce could rest against him

Otoh, Pierce would be the best scorer that Pippen ever faced, so he would destroy Pippen much worse than X-man, Larry Johnson, or Penny did... Actually, I guess Dominique might be a comparable scorer to Pierce and he averaged 30 ppg on Pippen (93')

Pippen was a joke offensively, and vastly overrated defensively - all the facts show this

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen wasn't a scorer and Pierce could rest against him

Otoh, Pierce would be the best scorer that Pippen ever faced, so he would destroy Pippen much worse than X-man, Larry Johnson, or Penny did... Actually, I guess Dominique might be a comparable scorer to Pierce and he averaged 30 ppg on Pippen (93')

Pippen was a joke offensively, and vastly overrated defensively - all the facts show this

I don't doubt that PP would score more from a volume standpoint. That wasn't the question though

[tpols]

Can anybody point to a playoff series where Pippen shut a star scorer down?

Just one?

[ShawkFactory]

Can anybody point to a playoff series where Pippen shut a star scorer down?

Just one?

Who said anything about shutting down? You’re responding based on standard talking points you usually concern yourself with and not paying attention to what is being said. Go back and read again if you need to.

PP is too good of a scorer to be “shut down“. No one is claiming otherwise.

[tpols]

Who said anything about shutting down? You’re responding based on standard talking points you usually concern yourself with and not paying attention to what is being said. Go back and read again if you need to.

PP is too good of a scorer to be “shut down“. No one is claiming otherwise.

Who said anything about shutting down? YOU did lmao. In this very thread.

Xman threw down 20 on 50% vs peak pippen. How does Paul Pierce do worse?

[ShawkFactory]

Who said anything about shutting down? YOU did lmao. In this very thread. Xman threw down 20 on 50% vs peak Pippen, How does Paul Pierce do worse?

I’ll refer you back to the original post. You’re making leaps that aren’t there. Pierce is already an inefficient playoff scorer. Believing that he would also be inefficient playing against Pippen =\= “Pippen would shut PP down”. Stop putting words in people’s mouths.

Like...you think Pierce is going to score 25+ a game on 50% or whatever against a team with Pippen on the court 40+ minutes?

[3ba11]

Like...you think Pierce is going to score 25+ a game on 50% or whatever against a team with Pippen on the court 40+ minutes?





Pierce averaged 26/9/6 on 55.1 TS against the DPOY Artest in the 2003 ECF

That was in 2003 with full zone - toughest defensive era since the inception of the 3-point line

But as 2nd option alongside Mike, Pierce would be entirely dominant with great efficiency - his best use is infact 2nd option alongside an all-time great like MJ or Shaq or something

[ShawkFactory]

Pierce averaged 26/9/6 on 55.1 TS against the DPOY Artest in the 2003 ECF

That was in 2003 with full zone - toughest defensive era since the inception of the 3-point line

But as 2nd option alongside Mike, Pierce would be entirely dominant with great efficiency - his best use is infact 2nd option alongside an all-time great like MJ or Shaq or something

That was a great series, although he still shot poorly from the field.

But that wasn't the norm for him.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen was a MUCH better help defender than he was mano y mano.

He'd give Pierce a challenge, but would be taxed trying to guard him an ENTIRE series.

Truth was a big body and knew how to position himself well. He welcomed the physicality, and hooped in the toughest defensive era. I doubt Pippen makes it THAT much tougher on him.

[3ba11]

That was a great series, although he still shot poorly from the field.

But that wasn't the norm for him.


He did it and he was pretty spectacular in that series.. That was actually his uber-prime because he went to college for 3 years.

Pierce averaged 25/7/4 from 01-07' and was good enough to carry those Celtics to a few playoff runs, but he would've been outstanding as a #2 alongside an all-time #1 option - his best use would've been as one of those great 1b's on a dynasty.. We saw how he was FMVP-caliber with some help around him in 08'

[tanibanana]

They are practically a different type of player.
But virtually of the same level of greatness.
Would put Pippen ahead of Pierce simply because Pippen has 6, while Pierce only got 1.

[Reggie43]

Pierce averaged 26/9/6 on 55.1 TS against the DPOY Artest in the 2003 ECF

That was in 2003 with full zone - toughest defensive era since the inception of the 3-point line

But as 2nd option alongside Mike, Pierce would be entirely dominant with great efficiency - his best use is infact 2nd option alongside an all-time great like MJ or Shaq or something

The problem is he actually won the award the next year wherein he met Pierce in the playoffs again and held him under 21ppg on 34%fg 29%3p and six turnovers per game on a four game sweep.

Pierce has had good games against Artest in his career but he was dominated by him defensively in that series.

[SaintzFury13]

10 4 (up until Bron showed up many were considering Pippen the best SF in the history of the league because he worked both sides of the floor at an elite level. )

I have never in my life heard anything about anyone considering Pippen the greatest SF of all time until now.

[bizil]

I have never in my life heard anything about anyone considering Pippen the greatest SF of all time until now.

RIGHT!!! Pip was NEVER REGARDED as the GOAT SF. AT BEST he was still behind Bird, Doc, Hondo, Baylor, and Barry. So AT BEST he was sixth. At this point, Bron and KD have passed him by. So he's around 8th in my opinion now. Kawhi is still rollin and could pass him if he stays healthy. And I got Nique and Pierce in my top 10 GOAT SF's as well.

And people gotta realize some 2nd OR EVEN 3rd option guys were ACTUALLY true alpha dog #1 options! Guys like West, Kobe, Wade, Curry, Dr. J, Kyrie, Harden, Magic, etc. They just HAPPENED to play with another legend who was a great scorer themselves. Pip was NEVER IN THAT CLASS!!! A great revolutionary player Pip was for sure! We had never seen a 6'8 freak athlete SF like Doc with the floor game of Hondo in the NBA! Thus becoming the blueprint for the modern day point forward. But the thing is G Hill and later Bron added the great scoring ability to that package.

That's why G Hill was looked as the potential face of the league once MJ was gone. And why Bron IS STILL the face of the league! Pip was NEVER in that class because the face of the league HAS TO BE A GUY who can dominate games scoring. The ONLY TIME this wasn't true was when Russ was with the Celtics. They won so much it swung it his way. BUT if we are being honest THEY ALL KNEW Wilt was the best player on the planet! And frankly, it was likely a Bird-Magic thing. Where it was a dual face of the league thing.

[AirBonner]

RIGHT!!! Pip was NEVER REGARDED as the GOAT SF. AT BEST he was still behind Bird, Doc, Hondo, Baylor, and Barry. So AT BEST he was sixth. At this point, Bron and KD have passed him by. So he's around 8th in my opinion now. Kawhi is still rollin and could pass him if he stays healthy. And I got Nique and Pierce in my top 10 GOAT SF's as well.

And people gotta realize some 2nd OR EVEN 3rd option guys were ACTUALLY true alpha dog #1 options! Guys like West, Kobe, Wade, Curry, Dr. J, Kyrie, Harden, Magic, etc. They just HAPPENED to play with another legend who was a great scorer themselves. Pip was NEVER IN THAT CLASS!!! A great revolutionary player Pip was for sure! We had never seen a 6'8 freak athlete SF like Doc with the floor game of Hondo in the NBA! Thus becoming the blueprint for the modern day point forward. But the thing is G Hill and later Bron added the great scoring ability to that package.

That's why G Hill was looked as the potential face of the league once MJ was gone. And why Bron IS STILL the face of the league! Pip was NEVER in that class because the face of the league HAS TO BE A GUY who can dominate games scoring. The ONLY TIME this wasn't true was when Russ was with the Celtics. They won so much it swung it his way. BUT if we are being honest THEY ALL KNEW Wilt was the best player on the planet!

Kyrie sucks as a number one option

[SaintzFury13]

Kyrie sucks as a number one option

Meh, not to make this about Kyrie but he's never really had a complementary team around him. Then again, that says more about his inability to impact the game in other aspects apart from scoring than it does about how well his teams were built. It's hard to find all star players who can adapt to almost any situation they're in and make it work. It's why LeBron is one of the all time greats because he won three championships with three completely different teams while still being the clear cut best player.

This point helps the argument behind Pippen being superior over Pierce. While the talent gap might not be large, Pippen is a far more valuable player than Pierce ever was. He did so much for you on the floor at an elite level that it was hard to prevent him from having a positive impact on the game. Pierce just didn't have that same kind of impact on the game.

[bizil]

Kyrie sucks as a number one option

Look who Kyrie had to play with as a #1 option though in Cleveland! With Boston, he didn't stay there long enough to see what could have happened. Fact remains he's a great scorer, 50-40-90 marksman, and has the best scoring skillset EVER from the PG spot! And Kyrie has a chip being MORE OF A FACTOR than Pip ever was scoring the rock!

[3ba11]

Meh, not to make this about Kyrie but he's never really had a complementary team around him. Then again, that says more about his inability to impact the game in other aspects apart from scoring than it does about how well his teams were built. It's hard to find all star players who can adapt to almost any situation they're in and make it work. It's why LeBron is one of the all time greats because he won three championships with three completely different teams while still being the clear cut best player.

This point helps the argument behind Pippen being superior over Pierce. While the talent gap might not be large, Pippen is a far more valuable player than Pierce ever was. He did so much for you on the floor at an elite level that it was hard to prevent him from having a positive impact on the game. Pierce just didn't have that same kind of impact on the game.


After getting exposed in the 1994 2nd Round and the 3-peat luster gone, Pippen had a .500 ballclub in 95' until MJ came back - so Pippen was doing worse than Pierce as #1 option (2nd Round in 94' and .500 ballclub in 95').

So what "impact" are you referring to?.. It doesn't show up in the team results or statistically, especially in the playoffs where Pippen was horrible nearly every year of his career.

Furthermore, Pippen had horrible efficiency AS A SECOND OPTION... Pierce would have great efficiency in a 2nd option role alongside Shaq, MJ, or KD, etc.. Pippen's efficiency benefitted from playing with that caliber of teammate, yet he still had bad efficiency.. His poor efficiency proves that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load and therefore was infact a defensive role player.

[97 bulls]

It's not a bad comparison with Pierce being the better scorer and Pippen the better defender. I also think Pippen was better at running the offense but Pierce could close games with his shotmaking. It's tough and which guy you go for depends on the team makeup but I am pretty sure I would pick Pippen a bit more often. He is just so versatile. Pierce is a better scorer but I don't think a team wins a title if Pierce is their first option.


After getting exposed in the 1994 2nd Round and the 3-peat luster gone, Pippen had a .500 ballclub in 95' until MJ came back - so Pippen was doing worse than Pierce as #1 option (2nd Round in 94' and .500 ballclub in 95').

So what "impact" are you referring to?.. It doesn't show up in the team results or statistically, especially in the playoffs where Pippen was horrible nearly every year of his career.

Furthermore, Pippen had horrible efficiency AS A SECOND OPTION... Pierce would have great efficiency in a 2nd option role alongside Shaq, MJ, or KD, etc.. Pippen's efficiency benefitted from playing with that caliber of teammate, yet he still had bad efficiency.. His poor efficiency proves that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load and therefore was infact a defensive role player.

Pippen was hurt bro. Why are you not getting this? And you totally throw away all his other contributions. Or your flat out disingenuous in your arguments.

Like 95. The Bulls not only lost Jordan, they lost Grant. Show me a player that loses their best two teammates and still keeps his team in playoff contention.

Do you think Pippens scoring numbers are better of he's not playing injured?

[3ba11]

Pippen was hurt bro. Why are you not getting this? And you totally throw away all his other contributions. Or your flat out disingenuous in your arguments.

Like 95. The Bulls not only lost Jordan, they lost Grant. Show me a player that loses their best two teammates and still keeps his team in playoff contention.

Do you think Pippens scoring numbers are better of he's not playing injured?


Pippen's 22 and 5 APG weren't dominant and those stats have never "carried" bad teams and aren't anywhere near "carry-job" stats.. Instead, it was the perfectly-run triangle that was keeping the Bulls barely above .500 before Jordan returned to restore a goat team offensive rating (while still maintaining a top defense, aka Jordan provides a 2-way team)

And get off the "hurt" excuse... Was Pippen hurt his entire playoff career? Because he was bad every year except 91'.. people will say that he was good in 92/93 but he had the X-man debacle in the 92' ECSF that nearly derailed the repeat and he had the worst advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in 93' (and among the worst true shooting).

[97 bulls]

Pippen's 22 and 5 APG weren't dominant and those stats have never "carried" bad teams and aren't anywhere near "carry-job" stats.. Instead, it was the perfectly-run triangle that was keeping the Bulls barely above .500 before Jordan returned to restore a goat team offensive rating (while still maintaining a top defense, aka Jordan provides a 2-way team)

And get off the "hurt" excuse... Was Pippen hurt his entire playoff career? Because he was bad every year except 91'.. people will say that he was good in 92/93 but he had the X-man debacle in the 92' ECSF that nearly derailed the repeat and he had the worst advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in 93' (and among the worst true shooting).

Stop focusing solely on scoring bro. Again, go back to the 96 Finals. The Sonics had all the advanced offensive scoring stats. THEY LOST!!!!!

Pippen was the 95 Bulls best scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and he ran the offense. As a guy that professes to have played basketball, you'd know how much energy is used in every facet of basketball.

[3ba11]

Stop focusing solely on scoring bro. Again, go back to the 96 Finals. The Sonics had all the advanced offensive scoring stats. THEY LOST!!!!!

Pippen was the 95 Bulls best scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and he ran the offense. As a guy that professes to have played basketball, you'd know how much energy is used in every facet of basketball





They lost because Jordan made up the offensive deficit of his cast ... :hammerhead:

MJ had to do that in every series because his cast was outscored in every series.

And 2nd options that don't score are defensive role players.. So no amount of defense or 5 APG will make up for 15 on 34%.. AD or Paul George would get killed for that and wouldn't be considered stars - they'd be defensive role players with those stats

[97 bulls]

They lost because Jordan made up the offensive deficit of his cast ... :hammerhead:

MJ had to do that in every series because his cast was outscored in every series.

And 2nd options that don't score are defensive role players.. So no amount of defense or 5 APG will make up for 15 on 34%.. AD or Paul George would get killed for that and wouldn't be considered stars - they'd be defensive role players with those stats
That's not what the offensive stats say bro. Try again. And Jordan shot very inefficient in the 96 Finals. The teams rebounding and defense made up for it.

[72-10]

"Easily"? That's a stretch. And if Pippen wasn't shutting down Rice, Barkley, Penny, LJ, X-Man, Dumas etc, then why would he shut down Pierce?

don't forget Iverson and Damon Stoudamire, they both got Pippen's number...

Payton, Rodman, Jordan, feel quite sure they're all better on-ball defenders than Pippen, if only by a little, by the way don't sleep on Bill Russell, Walt Frazier, Bruce Bowen, Michael Cooper and Bobby Jones

[72-10]

10 4 (up until Bron showed up many were considering Pippen the best SF in the history of the league because he worked both sides of the floor at an elite level. )

What? It was Bird and Erving, easily. Pippen was just the first player to play the point forward.:rolleyes: And I'm not sure I'd call Pippen's offense "elite". What's so elite about his arsenal besides his finger roll and ability to finish at the rim?

[72-10]

Pippen was a relentless athlete and would absolutely wear him down if tasked with guarding him for an entire series.

that's one of the best points in the thread