Proof that Pippen was much better than 3ball will admit

[AussieSteve]

In 1990, the Bulls won more games than the 76ers in the same conference. But:
- Barkley polled 38 1st place MVP votes.
- Jordan polled 21 1st place MVP votes.

Why did Barkley poll almost twice the votes despite winning fewer games?
- There was no great narrative in Barkley's favour
- There was no voter fatigue against Jordan
- There was no '3-peat success' artificiality inflating opinions of Jordan's cast
- Jordan had the stats advantage

There's only one plausible answer. Everyone knew that Jordan's cast (Pippen) was much better than Barkley's, so they considered Barkley's 53 wins much more impressive than Jordan's 55.

Ie. even before championship #1 everyone knew Pippen was great.

[SouBeachTalents]

Is Barkley the only player to get the most first place votes but not win MVP?

[ArbitraryWater]

Is Barkley the only player to get the most first place votes but not win MVP?

Yes

[SouBeachTalents]

For anyone interested in a more comprehensive breakdown than you'd get on bballreference

https://www.apbr.org/nbamvps.html

[AussieSteve]

For anyone interested in a more comprehensive breakdown than you'd get on bballreference

https://www.apbr.org/nbamvps.html

Which shows Barkley also winning the SN MVP. Clearly the majority considered Barkley's achievement during the 1990 RS greater than Jordan's. The only explanation is that people viewed Jordan's cast to be much better.

Which is no surprise, given that 4 years later, most people saw Pippen as a top 3-5 player in the world.

[ELITEpower23]

Check. Mate.

[AussieSteve]

Is Barkley the only player to get the most first place votes but not win MVP?

And he got the most by a lot too. It wasn't like he had a couple more than Magic, but Magic pipped him in place votes. He had more then 40% more 1st votes, but of the 54 voters who didn't put him in 1st place, 23 of them didn't see fit to put him in their top 3. A couple didn't even give him a vote. I recall reading that there were two ballots that had Buck Williams named in the top 5, but not Barkley.

There was an agenda among some voters to see that Magic win it and, more importantly, Barkley didn't.

Edit: Jordan was also not named on a couple ballots to be fair. Which speaks to the pro-magic agenda. Fair to say that if votes were made public as they are today, Barkley wins the 1990 MVP

[coastalmarker99]

From 1996 to 1998.

Pippen looked like a second team all-NBA guy despite going through a gauntlet of great defensive teams.

Putting up an insane 6.1 BPM over those 3 seasons in the playoffs.

Toni who wasn't really ready in 1996 ended with allstar level stats, coming in with a crazy 3.7 BPM off the bench and even more epic in 98 when the bulls needed someone to step up, 5.6 BPM.

For context Pau, who was a star 08-10 was only a 5.2 BPM.

Jordan truly was blessed with one of the all-time great teams in NBA history to complement him

[coastalmarker99]

From 1996 to 1998 Pippen still outscored & outproduced the opposing team's 2nd option in almost every series during that time.


This was an era where the Bulls opponent in the '98 Finals had their 2nd option averaging 10.7 ppg on 50% TS in the series

[Mauzah]

From 1996 to 1998 Pippen still outscored & outproduced the opposing team's 2nd option in almost every series during that time.


This was an era where the Bulls opponent in the '98 Finals had their 2nd option averaging 10.7 ppg on 50% TS in the series

While Jordan had the superior #2 option I felt like a lot of teams were able to shore up the difference by having stronger/deeper rosters compared to what the Bulls had. Pacers/ Knicks strong 1-8. Magic starting unit, ridiculous.

The Jazz were comparable to the Bulls by being a top heavy with Chicago having Rodman as the X factor. Still though, the Jazz were a well run team with two top 5 players at their positions for the time. No slouch.

[AussieSteve]

@3ball?

[3ba11]

There's something in MVP-voting called the "surprise" effect.

That's how Nash won 2 MVP's and that's how Barkley was in consideration in 1990 - people were impressed that a fat kid who they thought wasn't that good was infact playing so well...

Ultimately, humans are wrong on most things and these kinds of awards should be awarded years after the fact because hindsight is 20/20

For example, Pippen was horrible in 1990... Mo Williams was superior across the board in 2009 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).. larry hughes from 2005 completely DESTROYS pippen.. That's just a tiny sample - nearly anyone remotely decent was better than 1990 Pippen.

That's why Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 - people realized they got it wrong in 1990, especially after the "migraine" fiasco (tricking off the Bulls first title).. Pippen's only history heading into the 91' Playoffs was being a f*ck up and getting carried while the Bulls waited for him to not suck anymore.

[AussieSteve]

There's something in MVP-voting called the "surprise" effect.

That's how Nash won 2 MVP's and that's how Barkley was in consideration in 1990 - people were impressed that a fat kid who they thought wasn't that good was infact playing so well...

Ultimately, humans are wrong on most things and these kinds of awards should be awarded years after the fact because hindsight is 20/20

For example, Pippen was horrible in 1990... Mo Williams was superior across the board in 2009 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).. larry hughes from 2005 completely DESTROYS pippen.. That's just a tiny sample - nearly anyone remotely decent was better than 1990 Pippen.

That's why Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 - people realized they got it wrong in 1990, especially after the "migraine" fiasco (tricking off the Bulls first title).. Pippen's only history heading into the 91' Playoffs was being a f*ck up and getting carried while the Bulls waited for him to not suck anymore.

So after 4 straight All-NBA selections and 4 straight top 6 MVP finishes, people were surprised that Barkley was good? :lol

And voters were surprised that the 76ers lifted from 46 wins to 53 wins? but not so much that the Bulls went from 47 to 55?

Could it have been that people knew that Pippen, Grant et al. >>> Hawkins, Gminski et al.?

And, Nash won his 2nd MVP because people were surprised how well he was playing? He had just won MVP the year before! Voters were like... "what, he's even better than he was last season!! we should vote for him again!!" :lol

[3ba11]

So after 4 straight All-NBA selections and 4 straight top 6 MVP finishes, people were surprised that Barkley was good? :lol

And voters were surprised that the 76ers lifted from 46 wins to 53 wins? but not so much that the Bulls went from 47 to 55?

Could it have been that people knew that Pippen, Grant et al. >>> Hawkins, Gminski et al.?

And, Nash won his 2nd MVP because people were surprised how well he was playing? He had just won MVP the year before! Voters were like... "what, he's even better than he was last season!! we should vote for him again!!" :lol


Pippen was horrible in 1990... Hawkins beat him in scoring, efficiency, PER and WS/48.. Mo Williams was superior across the board in 2009 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).. larry hughes from 2005 completely DESTROYS pippen.. That's just a tiny sample - nearly anyone remotely decent was better than 1990 Pippen.

That's why Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 - people realized they got it wrong in 1990, especially after the "migraine" fiasco (tricking off the Bulls first title).. Pippen's only history heading into the 91' Playoffs was being a f*ck up and getting carried while the Bulls waited for him to not suck anymore.

[3ba11]

Btw, 1990 Pippen caused the Bulls to lose to the Bad Boys by averaging 16 on 42%, while guys like Reggie Miller averaged 21 on 57% against the Bad Boys and would've won the title with Jordan that year.. Or someone like the "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy (FMVP) would've easily destroyed the Bad Boys alongside MJ..

Only Pippen was horrible enough to lose with MJ

[AussieSteve]

Pippen was horrible in 1990... Hawkins beat him in scoring, efficiency, PER and WS/48.. Mo Williams was superior across the board in 2009 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).. larry hughes from 2005 completely DESTROYS pippen.. That's just a tiny sample - nearly anyone remotely decent was better than 1990 Pippen.

That's why Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 - people realized they got it wrong in 1990, especially after the "migraine" fiasco (tricking off the Bulls first title).. Pippen's only history heading into the 91' Playoffs was being a f*ck up and getting carried while the Bulls waited for him to not suck anymore.

So why the love for Barkley over Jordan in the 90 MVP?
- There was no great narrative in Barkley's favour
- There was no voter fatigue against Jordan
- There was no '3-peat success' artificiality inflating opinions of Jordan's cast
- Jordan had the stats advantage

[3ba11]

So why the love for Barkley over Jordan in the 90 MVP?
- There was no great narrative in Barkley's favour
- There was no voter fatigue against Jordan
- There was no '3-peat success' artificiality inflating opinions of Jordan's cast
- Jordan had the stats advantage


The surprise factor.. Barkley was playing on an MVP level and that surprised people

He wasn't playing on MJ's level and never did, but that doesn't matter because the media was rewarding Barkley for ticking it up a notch

Btw, 1990 Pippen caused the Bulls to lose to the Bad Boys by averaging 16 on 42%, while guys like Reggie Miller averaged 21 on 57% against the Bad Boys and would've won the title with Jordan that year.. Or someone like the "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy (FMVP) would've easily destroyed the Bad Boys alongside MJ..

Only Pippen was horrible enough to lose with MJ

[Axe]

The surprise factor.. Barkley was playing on an MVP level and that surprised people

He wasn't playing on MJ's level and never did, but that doesn't matter because the media was rewarding Barkley for ticking it up a notch

Btw, 1990 Pippen caused the Bulls to lose to the Bad Boys by averaging 16 on 42%, while guys like Reggie Miller averaged 21 on 57% against the Bad Boys and would've won the title with Jordan that year.. Or someone like the "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy (FMVP) would've easily destroyed the Bad Boys alongside MJ..

Only Pippen was horrible enough to lose with MJ
Otoh, pippen had more than two winning seasons without his first option...

[AussieSteve]

The surprise factor.. Barkley was playing on an MVP level and that surprised people

He wasn't playing on MJ's level and never did, but that doesn't matter because the media was rewarding Barkley for ticking it up a notch

Btw, 1990 Pippen caused the Bulls to lose to the Bad Boys by averaging 16 on 42%, while guys like Reggie Miller averaged 21 on 57% against the Bad Boys and would've won the title with Jordan that year.. Or someone like the "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy (FMVP) would've easily destroyed the Bad Boys alongside MJ..

Only Pippen was horrible enough to lose with MJ

Why didn't the media reward Jordan? I mean, it was the first time he'd cracked 50 wins. He had just made the conference finals for the first time the previous season. He was runner up in the MVP the previous season and had gotten even better as a player that year. He was now completely dispelling the school of thought that he was just another high scoring guard.... and he had won 55 games with a "horrible" second option? Surely that's worth rewarding?

Could it have been that people knew that Pippen, Grant et al. >>> Hawkins, Gminski et al.?

[3ba11]

Why didn't the media reward Jordan? I mean, it was the first time he'd cracked 50 wins. He had just made the conference finals for the first time the previous season. He was runner up in the MVP the previous season and had gotten even better as a player that year. He was now completely dispelling the school of thought that he was just another high scoring guard.... and he had won 55 games with a "horrible" second option? Surely that's worth rewarding?

Could it have been that people knew that Pippen, Grant et al. >>> Hawkins, Gminski et al.?


Why did MJ win 5 MVP's if the voters thought Pippen was good?... The reality is that all-nba is a media award and given out based on feel good criteria and group think, aka winning spotlight, overachieving, familiar name/reputation, etc.

[Sportal]

The surprise factor.. Barkley was playing on an MVP level and that surprised people

He wasn't playing on MJ's level and never did, but that doesn't matter because the media was rewarding Barkley for ticking it up a notch

Btw, 1990 Pippen caused the Bulls to lose to the Bad Boys by averaging 16 on 42%, while guys like Reggie Miller averaged 21 on 57% against the Bad Boys and would've won the title with Jordan that year.. Or someone like the "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy (FMVP) would've easily destroyed the Bad Boys alongside MJ..

Only Pippen was horrible enough to lose with MJ

Bulls so loaded that you're comparing Pacers 1st option to Pippen?

Reggie Miller averaged 2 more points than Pippen across their CAREERS. The 1st option star player for the Pacers... Jordan's competition... Pippen averaged 3 more rebounds, and 2 more assists in his career than Miller... The second best player on the Bulls... Was a better ball player than one of Jordan's main competitors in the 90s.

Their best seasons as "The Man" of their teams, this is regular season, best year for PPG:

93/94 Pippen: 22ppg, 8.7rebs, 5.6asts, TWO POINT NINE STEALS.

89/90 Miller: 24.6ppg, 3.6rebs, 3.8asts, 1.9stls.

3ball wants to tell us that Miller was better than Pippen? We can talk playoff output, sure.... Alright.

Best output in playoffs by PPG:

92/93 Miller: 31.5ppg, 3rebs, 2.8asts... 4 games played He has another season like this in the playoffs, again 4 games played.

93/94 Pippen: 22.8ppg, 8.3rebs, 4.6asts, 2.4stls... 10 games played.

There is literally ZERO chance you could convince people that Miller was a better player than Pippen.

[Axe]

Bulls so loaded that you're comparing Pacers 1st option to Pippen?

Reggie Miller averaged 2 more points than Pippen across their CAREERS. The 1st option star player for the Pacers... Jordan's competition... Pippen averaged 3 more rebounds, and 2 more assists in his career than Miller... The second best player on the Bulls... Was a better ball player than one of Jordan's main competitors in the 90s.

Their best seasons as "The Man" of their teams, this is regular season, best year for PPG:

93/94 Pippen: 22ppg, 8.7rebs, 5.6asts, TWO POINT NINE STEALS.

89/90 Miller: 24.6ppg, 3.6rebs, 3.8asts, 1.9stls.

3ball wants to tell us that Miller was better than Pippen? We can talk playoff output, sure.... Alright.

Best output in playoffs by PPG:

92/93 Miller: 31.5ppg, 3rebs, 2.8asts... 4 games played He has another season like this in the playoffs, again 4 games played.

93/94 Pippen: 22.8ppg, 8.3rebs, 4.6asts, 2.4stls... 10 games played.

There is literally ZERO chance you could convince people that Miller was a better player than Pippen.
Thurston objects...

[Sportal]

Thurston objects...

Well then Thurston is not very bright.

[3ba11]

Bulls so loaded that you're comparing Pacers 1st option to Pippen?

Reggie Miller averaged 2 more points than Pippen across their CAREERS. The 1st option star player for the Pacers... Jordan's competition... Pippen averaged 3 more rebounds, and 2 more assists in his career than Miller... The second best player on the Bulls... Was a better ball player than one of Jordan's main competitors in the 90s.

Their best seasons as "The Man" of their teams, this is regular season, best year for PPG:

93/94 Pippen: 22ppg, 8.7rebs, 5.6asts, TWO POINT NINE STEALS.

89/90 Miller: 24.6ppg, 3.6rebs, 3.8asts, 1.9stls.

3ball wants to tell us that Miller was better than Pippen? We can talk playoff output, sure.... Alright.

Best output in playoffs by PPG:

92/93 Miller: 31.5ppg, 3rebs, 2.8asts... 4 games played He has another season like this in the playoffs, again 4 games played.

93/94 Pippen: 22.8ppg, 8.3rebs, 4.6asts, 2.4stls... 10 games played.

There is literally ZERO chance you could convince people that Miller was a better player than Pippen.



Playoff Stats

Miller......... 19.5 PER... 5.0 BPM... 0.180 WS/48... 20.5 ppg on 60.1 TS
Pippen'...... 18.4 PER... 4.9 BPM... 0.140 WS/48... 17.5 ppg on 52.4 TS


Stats against the same Playoff Opponents

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage



Miller nearly beat MJ with no all-stars in 98' and made the Finals with no all-stars in 00', while Pippen lost in the 2nd Round in 94' and destroyed the Bulls' dynasty by 95', while also losing 4 years with MJ.

The Bulls would've beaten the 95' Magic with Miller's 26 on 53% rather than Pippen's 19 on 40%... Ditto the 1990 ECF, where Pippen averaged 16 on 42% against the Bad Boys compared to Miller's 21 on 57%

[AussieSteve]

Playoff Stats

Miller......... 19.5 PER... 5.0 BPM... 0.180 WS/48... 20.5 ppg on 60.1 TS
Pippen'...... 18.4 PER... 4.9 BPM... 0.140 WS/48... 17.5 ppg on 52.4 TS


Stats against the same Playoff Opponents

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage



Miller nearly beat MJ with no all-stars in 98' and made the Finals with no all-stars in 00', while Pippen lost in the 2nd Round in 94' and destroyed the Bulls' dynasty by 95', while also losing 4 years with MJ.

The Bulls would've beaten the 95' Magic with Miller's 26 on 53% rather than Pippen's 19 on 40%... Ditto the 1990 ECF, where Pippen averaged 16 on 42% against the Bad Boys compared to Miller's 21 on 57%

Firstly, you're wrong. Pippen is better than Miller. By a lot I might add. Miller was a great shooter. Pippen clearly wasn't as good a shooter, but was better at literally every other part of the game. But you know this.

Secondly, you're comparing the BEST player on one of Jordan's main opponents with Jordan's own team mate. Don't you see the irony here? What hope did the league have when Jordan's sidekick was in the level of all the other team's best players?

[Sportal]

Firstly, you're wrong. Pippen is better than Miller. By a lot I might add. Miller was a great shooter. Pippen clearly wasn't as good a shooter, but was better at literally every other part of the game. But you know this.

Secondly, you're comparing the BEST player on one of Jordan's main opponents with Jordan's own team mate. Don't you see the irony here? What hope did the league have when Jordan's sidekick was in the level of all the other team's best players?

He's fighting the most hilarious battle. He doesn't understand that he is comparing a 2nd best on the team Bulls player... With one of Jordan's best opponents. And he's brought much more.attention to it now...... Pippen was clearly the better player.

[3ba11]

Firstly, you're wrong. Pippen is better than Miller. By a lot I might add. Miller was a great shooter. Pippen clearly wasn't as good a shooter, but was better at literally every other part of the game. But you know this.

Secondly, you're comparing the BEST player on one of Jordan's main opponents with Jordan's own team mate. Don't you see the irony here? What hope did the league have when Jordan's sidekick was in the level of all the other team's best players?


Pippen is better than Curry in every part of the game except shooting, so are you saying Pippen > Curry?

And we got to see Pippen as 1st option - he sucked - 2nd Round loss and then borderline lottery/destroyed dynasty by Year 2 - otoh, miller was carrying the Pacers to ECF and FInals without an all-star with better performance/stats than Pippen ever had (see the OP).

Btw, even as 2nd option, Pippen had higher usage than Miller, as pointed out in the OP - so your argument is defeated via Miller's better performance as 1st option and better performance as a lower-usage 1st option

[SaintzFury13]

And we got to see Pippen as 1st option - he sucked - 2nd Round loss and then borderline lottery/destroyed dynasty by Year 2 - otoh, miller was carrying the Pacers to ECF and FInals without an all-star with better performance/stats than Pippen ever had (see the OP).

In his first season as the number 1 option, Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting and led his team to the playoffs where they lost in the second round. In the second year, he lost his all star teammate and no one was signed to fill that void.

Wanna know what happened when Kobe lost his best teammate and was the first option for his first year? He failed to make the playoffs. Please, do explain how Pippen "sucked" but Kobe gets a pass?

[Axe]

Well then Thurston is not very bright.
:roll:

@tpols

[3ba11]

In his first season as the number 1 option, Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting and led his team to the playoffs where they lost in the second round. In the second year, he lost his all star teammate and no one was signed to fill that void.

Wanna know what happened when Kobe lost his best teammate and was the first option for his first year? He failed to make the playoffs. Please, do explain how Pippen "sucked" but Kobe gets a pass?


22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 1000 peak that literally everyone has matched or superceded - I'd start naming names but it's literally everyone.. Larry Hughes ring a bell?... How about Blake Griffin or Marc Gasol... Yet people use this as a reason Pippen is top 30 - "b-b-but Pippen won 55 games with a 3-peat team and lost in 2nd Round"................ (silence)........... ME: AND??????????????????????

it's preposterous.. their brains can't accept Jordan's goatness so they fabricate insane double standards, aka 2nd Round loss is top 30, but only for Pippen.

And Horace was a garbage role player - a simple dunker that rebounded less than Tristan Thompson... The Bulls won the title in 98' with Kukoc as the starting PF and then won in 97' with Rodman averaging 4/8 for the entire playoffs... So quit crying about an 11/8 role player or the PF's on the Bulls - they were obviously expendable because MJ won with many different power forwards - all were role players..

The 94' Bulls simply won a few extra games in the regular season because they were defending 3-peat champs with a chip on their shoulder, but they fell to borderline lottery in 95' after getting exposed in the playoffs.. pippen was a trash defensive role player that destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years.

[nayte]

There's a crap ton of reasons for why pip is better then three ball says. But o.p reasoning is some of the stupidest I've seen and no one has said wtf. Crazy stuff

[Sportal]

22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 1000 peak that literally everyone has matched or superceded - I'd start naming names but it's literally everyone.. Larry Hughes ring a bell?... How about Blake Griffin or Marc Gasol... Yet people use this as a reason Pippen is top 30 - "b-b-but Pippen won 55 games with a 3-peat team and lost in 2nd Round"................ (silence)........... ME: AND??????????????????????

it's preposterous.. their brains can't accept Jordan's goatness so they fabricate insane double standards, aka 2nd Round loss is top 30, but only for Pippen.

And Horace was a garbage role player - a simple dunker that rebounded less than Tristan Thompson... The Bulls won the title in 98' with Kukoc as the starting PF and then won in 97' with Rodman averaging 4/8 for the entire playoffs... So quit crying about an 11/8 role player or the PF's on the Bulls - they were obviously expendable because MJ won with many different power forwards - all were role players..

The 94' Bulls simply won a few extra games in the regular season because they were defending 3-peat champs with a chip on their shoulder, but they fell to borderline lottery in 95' after getting exposed in the playoffs.. pippen was a trash defensive role player that destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years.

How many times has any of those players averaged 5+ assists and 2+ steals? As well as 22 point with 8 rebounds? Has there ever been another player since the 80s, that has has had 20/8/5 and LITERALLY 3 steals a game? You give a player like that to Luca Doncic and he SHITS on the Clippers last season. It's probably the Mavs in 4, MAYBE 5. Find me another player that has THAT kind of impact. Do you realise how many stars win a ring with a 2nd player like that on their team? If Lebron had that in his first stint with Cleveland, he wins AT LEAST one title. I don't think you understand how good that really is. Could Pippen stop Giannis? If you think he could... Then the Mavs win the Championship...

[AussieSteve]

Pippen is better than Curry in every part of the game except shooting, so are you saying Pippen > Curry?

And we got to see Pippen as 1st option - he sucked - 2nd Round loss and then borderline lottery/destroyed dynasty by Year 2 - otoh, miller was carrying the Pacers to ECF and FInals without an all-star with better performance/stats than Pippen ever had (see the OP).

Btw, even as 2nd option, Pippen had higher usage than Miller, as pointed out in the OP - so your argument is defeated via Miller's better performance as 1st option and better performance as a lower-usage 1st option

Pippen is not a good as Curry. But nor is Miller so that's moot point.

And how is my point, that Pippen and the '90 Bulls cast was obviously far superior to Barkley's 76ers cast, defeated by as comparison between Pippen and Miller? Again, Miller was the BEST player in one of Jordan's main rivals. That fact that we're even having this conversion proves that you're wrong... even if you're right that Miller is better than Pippen (you're not)

As an aside, by your own standards Miller must not be in the top 1000 players ever, given that he never even made an All-NBA 2nd team!! And never finished top 10 in the MVP. And only got out of the first round 4 times in the 90s. And never made the finals as a first option.

[SaintzFury13]

22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 1000 peak that literally everyone has matched or superceded - I'd start naming names but it's literally everyone.. Larry Hughes ring a bell?

No, he doesn't, because he never led a team to a 55 win season, or to the second round of the playoffs, or was third in MVP voting.


How about Blake Griffin or Marc Gasol

Blake Griffin's best years were as the second option on offense behind Chris Paul. As the number one option he never even made the playoffs. So he's out.

Marc Gasol? When the hell did Marc Gasol ever average those kinds of numbers while leading his team to the second round of the playoffs?

You claim it's literally everyone and then give me three players who literally never once did it. Just how stupid are you?


Yet people use this as a reason Pippen is top 30 - "b-b-but Pippen won 55 games with a 3-peat team and lost in 2nd Round"................ (silence)........... ME: AND??????????????????????

And what? What more needs to be said? You just got done claiming that Pippen wasn't a good number one option. He led his team to the second round of the playoffs and was third in MVP voting. That proves your point to be incorrect.


it's preposterous.. their brains can't accept Jordan's goatness so they fabricate insane double standards, aka 2nd Round loss is top 30, but only for Pippen.

Where are the double standards here? I'm not seeing it. Pippen being top 30 isn't entirely due to his 1994 run. You said he's not a good number one option. 1994 disproves that. What part of that are you not understanding?


And Horace was a garbage role player - a simple dunker that rebounded less than Tristan Thompson... The Bulls won the title in 98' with Kukoc as the starting PF and then won in 97' with Rodman averaging 4/8 for the entire playoffs... So quit crying about an 11/8 role player or the PF's on the Bulls - they were obviously expendable because MJ won with many different power forwards - all were role players..

That garbage role player was the one who made the Bulls a legitimate championship team in 1991-1993, was an all star in 94 and all defense member and was the reason the Bulls lost in 1995. He also averaged a double double and Michael Jordan outright stated they needed another "Horace Grant" after 95.

If you want to tell anyone to quit crying here, tell Jordan that, because he was the one complaining that he didn't have him in the first place.


The 94' Bulls simply won a few extra games in the regular season because they were defending 3-peat champs with a chip on their shoulder, but they fell to borderline lottery in 95' after getting exposed in the playoffs.. pippen was a trash defensive role player that destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years.

And once again, that isn't what happened. Horace Grant left the team. Any team that loses an all star player of that caliber is going to get worse. You aren't going to convince anyone with your garbage takes. Even Jordan would be insulting you to your face about how stupid your opinions are.

[AussieSteve]

No, he doesn't, because he never led a team to a 55 win season, or to the second round of the playoffs, or was third in MVP voting.



Blake Griffin's best years were as the second option on offense behind Chris Paul. As the number one option he never even made the playoffs. So he's out.

Marc Gasol? When the hell did Marc Gasol ever average those kinds of numbers while leading his team to the second round of the playoffs?

You claim it's literally everyone and then give me three players who literally never once did it. Just how stupid are you?



And what? What more needs to be said? You just got done claiming that Pippen wasn't a good number one option. He led his team to the second round of the playoffs and was third in MVP voting. That proves your point to be incorrect.



Where are the double standards here? I'm not seeing it. Pippen being top 30 isn't entirely due to his 1994 run. You said he's not a good number one option. 1994 disproves that. What part of that are you not understanding?



That garbage role player was the one who made the Bulls a legitimate championship team in 1991-1993, was an all star in 94 and all defense member and was the reason the Bulls lost in 1995. He also averaged a double double and Michael Jordan outright stated they needed another "Horace Grant" after 95.

If you want to tell anyone to quit crying here, tell Jordan that, because he was the one complaining that he didn't have him in the first place.



And once again, that isn't what happened. Horace Grant left the team. Any team that loses an all star player of that caliber is going to get worse. You aren't going to convince anyone with your garbage takes. Even Jordan would be insulting you to your face about how stupid your opinions are.

What's amazing is that Pippen lost Jordan AND Grant, that's the two best players on the team aside from himself, and STILL had then on playoff pace in 95 before Jordan returned. He might be one of the greatest floor raisers ever.

[3ba11]

Pippen is not a good as Curry. But nor is Miller so that's moot point.

As an aside, by your own standards Miller must not be in the top 1000 players ever, given that he never even made an All-NBA 2nd team!! And never finished top 10 in the MVP. And only got out of the first round 4 times in the 90s. And never made the finals as a first option.


You said that Pippen > Miller because the only thing Miller does better is shoot... And I'm saying that's all Miller needs because that's all Curry needs to be better than Pippen... Miller was a mini-Curry and better than Pippen just like Curry is... That's why Miller carried teams to the ECF and Finals with no all-stars, while Pippen lost in the 2nd Round and had a .500 ballclub in 95' before MJ came back

And hindsight is 20/20 - humans are pretty dumb and we always realize the real truth after the fact - this is the case with media awards like all-nba... Miller deserved 3 or 4 all-nba and Pippen deserved 1 or 2 (92', 94')..

[3ba11]

Horace Grant left the team.


.


And?

Horace Grant was a "korver" all-star... He was a simple rebounder that was awarded all-star in 94' because everyone was shocked the Bulls weren't horrible.

Ultimately, the Bulls won the 98' title with Kukoc as the starting PF, or the 97' title with Rodman averaging 4/8 for the entire playoffs - so Jordan didn't need a PF to win the title.. any bum will do at PF with Jordan leading the team

[SaintzFury13]

And?

Losing your second best player, who was an all star, is going to hurt any team.


Horace Grant was a "korver" all-star... He was a simple rebounder that was awarded all-star in 94' because everyone was shocked the Bulls weren't horrible.

Kyle Korver didn't make the all defense team and wasn't a walking double double. Horace Grant was. Try again.


Ultimately, the Bulls won the 98' title with Kukoc as the starting PF, or the 97' title with Rodman averaging 4/8 for the entire playoffs - so Jordan didn't need a PF to win the title.. any bum will do at PF with Jordan leading the team

And yet he still needed Rodman just to make it past the Sonics in 96. So your point is irrelevant. Jordan needed Rodman to win. This is a fact.

[3ba11]

Losing your second best player, who was an all star, is going to hurt any team.



Kyle Korver didn't make the all defense team and wasn't a walking double double. Horace Grant was. Try again.



And yet he still needed Rodman just to make it past the Sonics in 96. So your point is irrelevant. Jordan needed Rodman to win. This is a fact.


Horace was a "Korver" all-star and role player - why did Jordan win titles with Kukoc at PF and Rodman getting 4/8 if Horace was so valuable?

Horace was a lesser-rebounding Tristan Thompson if Tristan 3-peated and had an all-star appearance as a result...

Anyone who watched back then knows that Horace was a bit player... a regular 11/9 guy... You're just pretending he was good to suit your narrative but infact never watched Horace.... he peaked at 15/10 (top 5,000 peak)

[3ba11]

And yet he still needed Rodman just to make it past the Sonics in 96. So your point is irrelevant. Jordan needed Rodman to win. This is a fact.





^^^ That's your opinion that flies in the face of the facts..

Rodman was the retard version of a basketball player because the Bulls made special accomodations to play 4 on 5 with him on offense.

So the Bulls won IN SPITE of rodman in the 97' and 98' Playoffs and were up 3-0 in the 96' Playoffs - they would obviously win without him (and did), and they win easier with a better-scoring PF that doesn't force them to play 4 on 5..

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

Pippen was bad in the 88-90' Playoffs or 94-03' Playoffs yet new fans say he's good because of 6 chips

Pippen was bad in the 94-03' Playoffs

[tpols]

How many times has any of those players averaged 5+ assists and 2+ steals? As well as 22 point with 8 rebounds? Has there ever been another player since the 80s, that has has had 20/8/5 and LITERALLY 3 steals a game? You give a player like that to Luca Doncic and he SHITS on the Clippers last season. It's probably the Mavs in 4, MAYBE 5. Find me another player that has THAT kind of impact. Do you realise how many stars win a ring with a 2nd player like that on their team? If Lebron had that in his first stint with Cleveland, he wins AT LEAST one title. I don't think you understand how good that really is. Could Pippen stop Giannis? If you think he could... Then the Mavs win the Championship...

Luka almost beat the stacked Clippers with Tim Hardaway jr. as his 2nd option. So what does that mean? Give Luka prime Richard Jefferson and he mightve won. That's not a testament to anything really but Lukas GOATness.

22/8/5 as a PEAK is not impressive. Career averages definitely would be but for peak? There's at least 125 guys historically who have hit that point. Maybe more.

[SaintzFury13]

Horace was a "Korver" all-star and role player - why did Jordan win titles with Kukoc at PF and Rodman getting 4/8 if Horace was so valuable?

Because Kukoc was a very good 15 PPG player and Rodman was still an elite defensive player. Why do you continue to act like stats tell the whole story?


Horace was a lesser-rebounding Tristan Thompson if Tristan 3-peated and had an all-star appearance as a result...

Horace was a much better defender and a better offensive player. Don't even try to equate his impact and worth to that of Tristian Thompson.


Anyone who watched back then knows that Horace was a bit player... a regular 11/9 guy... You're just pretending he was good to suit your narrative but infact never watched Horace.... he peaked at 15/10 (top 5,000 peak)

You didn't watch back then and we all know that. If you did, you still wouldn't be hammering the "Rodman was a 4/8 guy" like that's supposed to prove something.

And it doesn't matter if he was a regular 11/9 guy (he wasn't). He was still an ELITE defensive player, something you are continuing to ignore.

Again, this is why you're a clown.

[Round Mound]

Anyone who watched the nba live in the 90's knows Pippen and Grant > Barkley's cast of 2nd and 3rd options. Pippen was an all star in 1990 btw.

[Axe]

Because Kukoc was a very good 15 PPG player and Rodman was still an elite defensive player. Why do you continue to act like stats tell the whole story?



Horace was a much better defender and a better offensive player. Don't even try to equate his impact and worth to that of Tristian Thompson.



You didn't watch back then and we all know that. If you did, you still wouldn't be hammering the "Rodman was a 4/8 guy" like that's supposed to prove something.

And it doesn't matter if he was a regular 11/9 guy (he wasn't). He was still an ELITE defensive player, something you are continuing to ignore.

Again, this is why you're a clown.
He'll never listen to those shit. :sleeping

[3ba11]

Anyone who watched the nba live in the 90's knows Pippen and Grant > Barkley's cast of 2nd and 3rd options. Pippen was an all star in 1990 btw.


93' Suns had 3 all-stars and the Bulls only 2

So Jordan overcame a talent deficit against the Suns - the Suns' cast outscored the Bulls cast by 16 ppg, but the Bulls won because Jordan averaged 41 and outscored barkley by 16.. Jordan also overcame a talent deficit in 96' (sonics had 3 all-stars too)

otoh, Lebron had the only super-teams from 2011-2016 and only faced a talent deficit in 2018... lebron fans are just delusional and quite ignorant about basketball to think lebron is anywhere near Jordan

[8Ball]

93 suns are nothing.

Where was the 2nd finals appearance in the 90s?

I will put them below 2012 OKC.

[3ba11]

93 suns are nothing.

Where was the 2nd finals appearance in the 90s?

I will put them below 2012 OKC.


The 90's was a bloodbath of parity and the team that emerged from each conference was a completely battle-tested, ORGANIC team that had been together forever and was now having their banner year - Jordan won 6 titles against these organic juggernauts, while Lebron has a lottery record against organic teams (Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)...

Lebron's short-term, mercenary teamwork gets destroyed by organic teams, and he can't have organic teams himself because his skill restriction to ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. So you stan a COMPLETE fraud.. a joke.... but carry on tho

[Round Mound]

93' Suns had 3 all-stars and the Bulls only 2

So Jordan overcame a talent deficit against the Suns - the Suns' cast outscored the Bulls cast by 16 ppg, but the Bulls won because Jordan averaged 41 and outscored barkley by 16.. Jordan also overcame a talent deficit in 96' (sonics had 3 all-stars too)

otoh, Lebron had the only super-teams from 2011-2016 and only faced a talent deficit in 2018... lebron fans are just delusional and quite ignorant about basketball to think lebron is anywhere near Jordan

Nobody is saying Barkley > MJ. Everyone knows that MJ is the best ever. What's clear for most fans whom are not Jordan Jockers is that Pippen and Grant > Barkley's 2nd options (especially Defensively and Pippen in terms of versatility). That's clear to me i watched the nba live during that era.

[3ba11]

Nobody is saying Barkley > MJ. Everyone knows that MJ is the best ever. What's clear for most fans whom are not Jordan Jockers is that Pippen and Grant > Barkley's 2nd options (especially Defensively and Pippen in terms of versatility). That's clear to me i watched the nba live during that era.


Grant isn't better than Majerle - that's laughable... Majerle was a 3-time all-star and outplayed Pippen in the 93' Finals if we go by gamescore or efficiency

don't make up facts and think i'll buy them.. i watched all those games and grant wasn't considered a good player.. he was considered a decent role player, nothing more

[Round Mound]

Grant isn't better than Majerle - that's laughable... Majerle was a 3-time all-star and outplayed Pippen in the 93' Finals if we go by gamescore or efficiency

don't make up facts and think i'll buy them.. i watched all those games and grant wasn't considered a good player.. he was considered a decent role player, nothing more

As MJ said Majerle is an All-Star but a White All Star: refering to how he cannot stay infront of MJ off the dribble. Grant was better than Rodman cause he was good at defense and offense. Now Pippen was considered by most as better than KJ and Dan. Relax we already know MJ was the best player ever and i agree with that but he also had a better team because those teams combined good offense with GREAT defense. That's my opinion. I will not discuss more.

[3ba11]

As MJ said Majerle is an All-Star but a White All Star: refering to how he cannot stay infront of MJ off the dribble. Grant was better than Rodman cause he was good at defense and offense. Now Pippen was considered by most as better than KJ and Dan. Relax we already know MJ was the best player ever and i agree with that but he also had a better team because those teams combined good offense with GREAT defense. That's my opinion. I will not discuss more.


The 1st three-peat Bulls only had the #7 defense.

So the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses than the Bulls and more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had nearly-equal defensive rank and FAR more scorers.. So the Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent than the Bulls, but they had a long-term organic brand that demolished Popovich/Duncan and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers.

Also, KJ was a 20/10 guy, which Pippen wasn't - KJ was a better scorer, passer and leader than Pippen, while routinely leading teams to the WCF before Barkley arrived - the Suns win the 93' Finals if he's healthy.

Pippen simply never played on KJ's level - go look at the 94' and 95' series against Hakeem (both were 7 game series) - KJ was utterly dominant (28/5/9 including two 45-point games).

You guys simply don't realize that the winning spotlight inflated Pippen's accolades - guys like KJ, Miller, or Kemp routinely played far better than Pippen ever did and took their teams further - Pippen was literally BAD in every playoffs except 91' (even 92' had the X-man debacle in 2nd Round that nearly derailed the title).

[outofstomach]

93 suns are nothing.

Where was the 2nd finals appearance in the 90s?

I will put them below 2012 OKC.yes, a rookie harden and a young KD + westbrook what a tough ring :lol

****ing idiot :applause:

[AussieSteve]

The 1st three-peat Bulls only had the #7 defense.

So the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses than the Bulls and more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had nearly-equal defensive rank and FAR more scorers.. So the Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent than the Bulls, but they had a long-term organic brand that demolished Popovich/Duncan and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers.

Also, KJ was a 20/10 guy, which Pippen wasn't - KJ was a better scorer, passer and leader than Pippen, while routinely leading teams to the WCF before Barkley arrived - the Suns win the 93' Finals if he's healthy.

Pippen simply never played on KJ's level - go look at the 94' and 95' series against Hakeem (both were 7 game series) - KJ was utterly dominant (28/5/9 including two 45-point games).

You guys simply don't realize that the winning spotlight inflated Pippen's accolades - guys like KJ, Miller, or Kemp routinely played far better than Pippen ever did and took their teams further - Pippen was literally BAD in every playoffs except 91' (even 92' had the X-man debacle in 2nd Round that nearly derailed the title).

Pippen was an all star in 1990. Before winning spotlight.

Other guys like McHale and Worthy won a bunch of rings next to superstar team mates and never got the same level of accolade, even though they were supposedly better? Explain.

[Phoenix]

You guys simply don't realize that the winning spotlight inflated Pippen's accolades

So why didn't other Bulls on those title teams get all-star/all-nba recognition then, just Scottie?

[Jasper]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29072197/toni-kukoc-talks-michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-last-dance-chicago-bulls

"I love Scottie," Kukoc said. "The guy that helped me the most those first two years was Scottie. He is so easy to play with. I never really felt [the criticism] was mean. I felt like he was trying to point me in the right direction."

Pippen has campaigned for Kukoc to be inducted in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. It is something Kukoc wants, and feels he deserves. (Lots of people in basketball agree -- especially considering some of Kukoc's international contemporaries are already enshrined.) Divac and Radja, both inducted in recent years, have each said Kukoc should already be in.

done/

[FKAri]

yes, a rookie harden and a young KD + westbrook what a tough ring :lol

****ing idiot :applause:
3 MVPs taken down by 1 MVP. With zero help mind you(none of those scrubs are still in the league). Wow!

That means Lebron is 3x as good as KD, Westbrook and Harden COMBINED. LeGOAT :applause: