Magic gets overated by circumstances and nostalgia

[AussieSteve]

Not bashing Magic at all. I was too young when he was at his best to have a credible opinion about him. From what I have seen, and based on the opinions of people who have credible opinions, he is clearly the GOAT pass-first PG.

But I can't help but think he gets overated due to a) his artificially inflated personal accolades, b) his inflated team success through having a super stacked team in a weak conference, and c) nostalgia.

a) two of his three MVPs are dodgy.
- 1989 should have been Jordan's, and Jordan won that years SN MVP accordingly.
- 1990 should have been Barkley's as discussed in these two threads...
Proof-that-Pippen-was-much-better-than-3ball-will-admit (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497286-Proof-that-Pippen-was-much-better-than-3ball-will-admit) and
Barkley-was-robbed-of-the-MVP-in-1990 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497198-Barkley-was-robbed-of-the-MVP-in-1990)

It seems that certain factions of the media loved Magic and handed him two of his MVPs

b) Almost all of the biggest stars (Moses, Dr J, Bird, Jordan, Barkley, Nique, Ewing) and the best teams (Celtics, Philly, Pistons, Bucks) in the 80s were in the East. Hakeem was in the West, but he was on a one-man team. Meanwhile, Magic had the best second option in the league in Worthy, a DPOY SG and an old but still great Kareem. Plenty of point guards all time would have been perennial finalists in that conference with that cast.

c) There is a lot of romanticism around Magic and his rivalry with Bird, which leads to a willingness to rank him highly.

In summary, in my opinion, Magic's legacy and all time ranking is boosted massively by circumstance and sentiment.

Thoughts?

[Kblaze8855]

Legacy talk is whatever to me….people bend it to get the conclusions they want so it gets boring.


Basketball wise though?

Magic is if anything underrated. People have no idea how great he was because they focus on the crazy passes and all the team success.

Magic was individually hard to handle. He held back most of his career to let others shine.

[MadDog]

Your first 2 points would have more merit if Magic was a poor finals performer. Or had a losing record there. The opposite is true though, so its not really something to dwell on. Your third point is "nostalgia" but that sounds like a reach. Most all-time greats are romanticized. Bird and Jordan, Magic's rivals, fall in that boat too.


Legacy talk is whatever to me….people bend it to get the conclusions they want so it gets boring.


Basketball wise though?

Magic is if anything underrated. People have no idea how great he was because they focus on the crazy passes and all the team success.

Magic was individually hard to handle. He held back most of his career to let others shine.

That and he wasn't a high volume scorer. Most "fans" malfunction when they see Magic never had a year averaging 25.

[iamgine]

Well I mean the team went from 47 wins lost in the WCF to 60 wins and championship with rookie Magic.

Rookie.

[Xiao Yao You]

One of the greats. We just did this though :facepalm

[lakerstekkenn]

People just want to argue, debate everyone knows Magic isn't overrated, even if you don't like the Lakers and maybe your a Celtics fan, you know Magic isn't overrated, just like Lakers fans would never call Larry Legend overrated.

[dankok8]

Well I mean the team went from 47 wins lost in the WCF to 60 wins and championship with rookie Magic.

Rookie.

That's a good point but the Lakers' turnaround had more to it than just Magic arriving. For one, they offloaded Dantley who was taking up space in the post for Kareem and didn't play a lick of defense. Second they added Jim Chones who helped the Lakers' woeful rebounding. They were last in the league in 1979. And third they added Michael Cooper who helped with perimeter D. This was LA's another huge weaknesses as the Seattle guards lit them up in 1979. Magic obviously helped as well but it's not just Magic.

[iamgine]

That's a good point but the Lakers' turnaround had more to it than just Magic arriving. For one, they offloaded Dantley who was taking up space in the post for Kareem and didn't play a lick of defense. Second they added Jim Chones who helped the Lakers' woeful rebounding. They were last in the league in 1979. And third they added Michael Cooper who helped with perimeter D. This was LA's another huge weaknesses as the Seattle guards lit them up in 1979. Magic obviously helped as well but it's not just Magic.

It never is with anything.

But I feel Magic is the main reason, not Jim Chones or Cooper.

[MadDog]

It never is with anything.

But I feel Magic is the main reason, not Jim Chones or Cooper.

Yea lol. By most advanced stats & impact data, Magic was clearly the biggest reason. In his rookie year, Magic was already #2 in Laker box +/-, player efficiency rating and value over replacement. In the playoffs, he actually equaled Kareem in value over replacement. Magic's impact was felt from jump street.

[Pointguard]

That's a good point but the Lakers' turnaround had more to it than just Magic arriving. For one, they offloaded Dantley who was taking up space in the post for Kareem and didn't play a lick of defense. Second they added Jim Chones who helped the Lakers' woeful rebounding. They were last in the league in 1979. And third they added Michael Cooper who helped with perimeter D. This was LA's another huge weaknesses as the Seattle guards lit them up in 1979. Magic obviously helped as well but it's not just Magic.

LOL, Chones. You can't be serious. He averaged less rebounds than Magic. Dantley TS% was always among the top ever for non-centers. Makes Bird's TS% look like a joke and he was just taking up space?

The Laker's weren't winning the previous four years either.

[3ba11]

Agree OP

Magic was a rich man's Andre Miller

How do you go 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem and Worthy but get rated top 5 all-time? Makes no sense..

Again - if he never played with Kareem, he'd be a rich man's Andre Miller

[MadDog]

Agree OP

Magic was a rich man's Andre Miller

How do you go 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem and Worthy but get rated top 5 all-time? Makes no sense..

Again - if he never played with Kareem, he'd be a rich man's Andre Miller

What a joke. Andre Miller couldn't run the break or pass like him. But Magic was a rich man's version? Their games couldn't be different.

[Thenameless]

Agree OP

Magic was a rich man's Andre Miller

How do you go 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem and Worthy but get rated top 5 all-time? Makes no sense..

Again - if he never played with Kareem, he'd be a rich man's Andre Miller

Because there's another all-time great on the other side in Bird, and the best front court of all time in Bird/McHale/Parish, not to mention all-stars in Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge. A certain 90's star never had to face such rivals. Actually, he couldn't get by them while they were still in their prime.

[1987_Lakers]

Agree OP

Magic was a rich man's Andre Miller

How do you go 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem and Worthy but get rated top 5 all-time? Makes no sense..

Again - if he never played with Kareem, he'd be a rich man's Andre Miller

I don't have him top 5, but maybe if you use your brain as to why he went 5-4 it will make sense.

1983 - Lost to a team with Moses, Dr. J and a great supporting cast, considered one of the greatest teams ever.
1984 - Should have won, but no shame in losing to Bird, McHale, & Parish, they were a juggernaut of a team.
1989 - Lost to an all-time great team and Magic got injured early in that series.
1991 - By this point the Lakers didn't have Kareem, Cooper, Riley etc, lost to a future dynasty.

Again, use your brain.

[3ba11]

Because there's another all-time great on the other side in Bird, and the best front court of all time in Bird/McHale/Parish, not to mention all-stars in Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge. A certain 90's star never had to face such rivals. Actually, he couldn't get by them while they were still in their prime.


Lebron had super-teams and Jordan didn't

Jordan overcame talent deficits in the Finals and Lebron didn't

[3ba11]

I don't have him top 5, but maybe if you use your brain as to why he went 5-4 it will make sense.

1983 - Lost to a team with Moses, Dr. J and a great supporting cast, considered one of the greatest teams ever.
1984 - Should have won, but no shame in losing to Bird, McHale, & Parish, they were a juggernaut of a team.
1989 - Lost to an all-time great team and Magic got injured early in that series.
1991 - By this point the Lakers didn't have Kareem, Cooper, Riley etc, lost to a future dynasty.

Again, use your brain.


Losing with a super-team is unacceptable

I guess the only question is which ball-dominator lost MORE with super-teams - Magic or Lebron?

[1987_Lakers]

Losing with a super-team is unacceptable

I guess the only question is which ball-dominator lost MORE with super-teams - Magic or Lebron?
Well, he lost to other super teams, but I know you're trolling.

Being 1-9 is unacceptable.

[AussieSteve]

Losing with a super-team is unacceptable

I guess the only question is which ball-dominator lost MORE with super-teams - Magic or Lebron?

This is so ridiculous. If two superteams play each other. One of them has to lose.

In the 90s there was only 1 super team, so they always won.

[3ba11]

This is so ridiculous. If two superteams play each other. One of them has to lose.

In the 90s there was only 1 super team, so they always won.



* the 11' Mavs weren't a super-team, yet Lebron lost to them with a super-team.

* the 14' Spurs weren't a super-team, yet Lebron lost to them with a super-team.

* In 2017, Lebron lost with a super-team despite having the "curry-killer" as a sidekick


Otoh, there were no super-teams in the 90's - that's the point - who cares that Jordan never faced a super-team because he never had one himself.

Super-teams = 3 perennial all-stars or 3 elite first options... And btw, Lebron is the only player in 3-pointer history with 3 elite first options on his teams

Ultimately, Lebron only faced a talent deficit against the KD Warriors, whereas Jordan beat 3 Finals teams that had more all-stars (91' Lakers, 93' Suns, 96' Sonics)

[1987_Lakers]

We all know how you truly feel about LeBron

https://i.ibb.co/XCD6m9n/3-Ball-Le-Bron-is-the-GOAT.png

[3ba11]

We all know how you truly feel about LeBron

https://i.ibb.co/XCD6m9n/3-Ball-Le-Bron-is-the-GOAT.png


that was me saying what Seadood was thinking..

i'll go back on the site soon and quote those posts to inform or remind everyone of that - only people who weren't involved in that conversation 8 years ago post about it because they don't know the context.. they just go back and say "oh look what 3ball wrote" and that's what I did at first when I saw it (i thought the mods had faked it) before I read the posts closely and remembered the nature of that conversation.

[1987_Lakers]

And we all know how you truly feel about Magic...


Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.

So to me, 2-way assassins with scoring versatility (MJ, Kobe) are the goats because they seemed to need the least help... So they're in the top 3 for me.. the historic PG's are next in line, with goat physical forces Wilt and Shaq coming next.. Kareem comes AFTER all these guys, and ahead of team-hoppers/super-team seekers Durant and Lebron..


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant


Something like that.. If Kawhi wins a couple rings with the Clippers, he would easily be top 10 because he fits the optimal player type of "2-way assassin with scoring versatility"

And you might be wondering how I have Bird #2 as a 2-way assassin... I think his defense is vastly underrated and he actually was a 2-way assassin.. Celtics had the #1 defense with Bird and his savvy/next-level basketball brain/instinct
.

Imagine that, you have him #4, and you made that post less than 2 years ago. :oldlol:

[AussieSteve]

* the 11' Mavs weren't a super-team, yet Lebron lost to them with a super-team.

* the 14' Spurs weren't a super-team, yet Lebron lost to them with a super-team.

* In 2017, Lebron lost with a super-team despite having the "curry-killer" as a sidekick


Otoh, there were no super-teams in the 90's - that's the point - who cares that Jordan never faced a super-team because he never had one himself.

Super-teams = 3 perennial all-stars or 3 elite first options... And btw, Lebron is the only player in 3-pointer history with 3 elite first options on his teams

Ultimately, Lebron only faced a talent deficit against the KD Warriors, whereas Jordan beat 3 Finals teams that had more all-stars (91' Lakers, 93' Suns, 96' Sonics)

Your own definition of a super team is inconsistent with your examples of super teams.

And shouldn't the definition of a super team be relative to the rest of the league? I mean if a team has 2 top 5 players in it and no other team even has 2 top 10 players, they're at a pretty distinct advantage over the reat of the league aren't they?

In any event, as usual, you've derailed the thread with talk about your favorite player LeBron James. So I'll ignore any further off topic posts from you in this thread.

[3ba11]

And we all know how you truly feel about Magic...



Imagine that, you have him #4, and you made that post less than 2 years ago. :oldlol:


I realized that my rankings were inconsistent and that Magic/Lebron need to be ranked next to each other - you can't rank one in the top 5 and the other in the top 15 - they both need to be top 15

[1987_Lakers]

I realized that my rankings were inconsistent and that Magic/Lebron need to be ranked next to each other - you can't rank one in the top 5 and the other in the top 15 - they both need to be top 15

backtrack

[3ba11]

Your own definition of a super team is inconsistent with your examples of super teams.

And shouldn't the definition of a super team be relative to the rest of the league? I mean if a team has 2 top 5 players in it and no other team even has 2 top 10 players, they're at a pretty distinct advantage over the reat of the league aren't they?

In any event, as usual, you've derailed the thread with talk about your favorite player LeBron James. So I'll ignore any further off topic posts from you in this thread.


There was never a year that Pippen was above MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone or Ewing..

So he was never top 5 in the 90's...

and MVP voting isn't a ranking - Blake Griffin was #3 for MVP but was never a top 3 player

Ultimately, Lebron only faced a talent deficit against the KD Warriors, whereas Jordan beat 3 Finals teams that had more all-stars (91' Lakers, 93' Suns, 96' Sonics)

[3ba11]

backtrack


Everyone changes their rankings, although mine have been the same for a while now that I figured out that Magic/Lebron should be ranked similarly (not top 5)

[1987_Lakers]

Everyone changes their rankings, although mine have been the same for a while now that I figured out that Magic/Lebron should be ranked similarly (not top 5)

So Magic dropped 10 spots in a matter of months? :oldlol:

[3ba11]

So Magic dropped 10 spots in a matter of months? :oldlol:


Unlike you guys, I try to get rid of my bias and that's what I did with Magic - he's a guy from my era, but I have to judge him appropriately - he's a ball-dominator and this inferior skillset needs a lot more help than smart scorers/assassins - it needs super-teams and that's pathetic, hence the lowering of Magic's ranking to lebron's level

[1987_Lakers]

Unlike you guys, I try to get rid of my bias and that's what I did with Magic - he's a guy from my era, but I have to judge him appropriately - he's a ball-dominator and this inferior skillset needs a lot more help than smart scorers/assassins - it needs super-teams and that's pathetic, hence the lowering of Magic's ranking to lebron's level

https://c.tenor.com/5vKnZA8IzwIAAAAM/ray-liotta-laughing.gif

[3ba11]

https://c.tenor.com/5vKnZA8IzwIAAAAM/ray-liotta-laughing.gif


If you guys show me something impressive about Lebron's career, I might change my mind.. But you guys have nothing - the guy is a team-hopping fraud that manufactured his entire career, from his jumpshot efficiency to his "tough" childhood.

It's funny too because I was a Lebron fan in 2007 and actually thought he did something by making those Finals... Only years later did I actually look at the stats and evaluate the opponent/conference or how many years he'd been building the team... and then compare to Jordan... lol... Hindsight is 20/20

[AussieSteve]

There was never a year that Pippen was above MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone or Ewing..

So he was never top 5 in the 90's...

and MVP voting isn't a ranking - Blake Griffin was #3 for MVP but was never a top 3 player

Ultimately, Lebron only faced a talent deficit against the KD Warriors, whereas Jordan beat 3 Finals teams that had more all-stars (91' Lakers, 93' Suns, 96' Sonics)

Pippen's 3 straight All-NBA 1st teams, 2 top 5 MVP finishes and 2 NBA player of the month awards say hello.

And I'm fine with Blake being the 3rd best player in the world in 2014. Certainly top 5. Top 2 were clearly LeBron and KD. Harden and Curry were still on the rise and not better than Blake at that point. Who else do you think was better? You can't project the Blake that we have seen since his 2015 & 16 injuries onto 2014 Blake. He was legit.

[3ba11]

Pippen's 3 straight All-NBA 1st teams, 2 top 5 MVP finishes and 2 NBA player of the month awards say hello.





^^^ top 200 accolades

and his peak of 22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 1000 peak.

and all-nba is a media award where winning spotlight is the main criteria, or association with MJ - i.e. kobe got a few extra all-defense because people associated him with MJ, who was an automatic selection every year... similarly, pippen's association with mj and winning resulted in a few extra all-nba - he didn't deserve it in 93' or 96-98'.. I'll give him 92', 94' and 95'.. Pippen simply wasn't top 5 in any year of his career - that would've been a preposterous notion back then.

Ultimately, the Jazz were the only Finals opponent that didn't have more talent than the Bulls because the Sonics and Suns had more all-stars, while the Lakers/Blazers had a better-ranked defense and more scorers.

[AussieSteve]

^^^ top 200 accolades

and his peak of 22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 1000 peak.


Top ~200 players
Iverson
Kawhi
Isiah Thomas


Players not in the top ~200
Stockton
Payton
Westbrook
Wade
Mcgrady
Penny
Ewing
Nique
Lillard
Grant Hill
Amar'e
Tim Hardaway
Webber
Drexler
Mullin
Etc.
Etc.

3ball does it again

[Mr. Woke]

If you guys show me something impressive about Lebron's career, I might change my mind.. But you guys have nothing - the guy is a team-hopping fraud that manufactured his entire career, from his jumpshot efficiency to his "tough" childhood.

It's funny too because I was a Lebron fan in 2007 and actually thought he did something by making those Finals... Only years later did I actually look at the stats and evaluate the opponent/conference or how many years he'd been building the team... and then compare to Jordan... lol... Hindsight is 20/20

You are a pathetic/manufactured hater. Everything about you is fake.

LeBron is easily a top three player of all time.

[8Ball]

People just want to argue, debate everyone knows Magic isn't overrated, even if you don't like the Lakers and maybe your a Celtics fan, you know Magic isn't overrated, just like Lakers fans would never call Larry Legend overrated.

Larry Legend was one of the best basketball players talent wise ever.

[8Ball]

And we all know how you truly feel about Magic...



Imagine that, you have him #4, and you made that post less than 2 years ago. :oldlol:

From #4 to overrated ball dominator.


3ball believes nothing.

[8Ball]

You are a pathetic/manufactured hater. Everything about you is fake.

LeBron is easily a top three player of all time.

Once you realize he doesn't believe any point he types he makes sense.

He is just here to troll and pass time. He has no basketball point that he believes in.