Miller & Shaq > Pippen.. So how were they winning less than Pip even w/o MJ on Bulls?

[ELITEpower23]

How did 94 Pippen win more games than Shaq and Reggie Miller and all he did was trade MJ for Pete Myers?

[Real Men Wear Green]

1: No one thinks Miller was greater than Pip. Better shooter and that would be the end of it.

2. Putting Pip over Shaq is far dumber than putting Miller over Pip.

3. Basketball is a team sport.

4. Die in a fire.

[ELITEpower23]

1: No one thinks Miller was greater than Pip. Better shooter and that would be the end of it.

2. Putting Pip over Shaq is far dumber than putting Miller over Pip.

3. Basketball is a team sport.

4. Die in a fire.


1. Tell that to 3ball

2. No one put him over Shaq. Do you know how to read? ">" means greater than.

3. No shit

4. You first fakkit

[Kblaze8855]

1: No one thinks Miller was greater than Pip. Better shooter and that would be the end of it.

2. Putting Pip over Shaq is far dumber than putting Miller over Pip.

3. Basketball is a team sport.

4. Die in a fire.


All of that is….about right. Maybe a bit excessive on the last one.

[3ba11]

Miller is a better shooter than Pippen and that's it





Same thing with Curry - Curry shoots better than Pippen and that's it.

Miller is superior to Pippen in the same way that Curry is, although to a lesser extent due to era

Similar to Curry, Miller had better stats and performance than Pippen (even against the exact same playoff opponents), so he made the ECF and Finals while Pippen took the Bulls nowhere in 94' and 95'

So you can say Pippen > Miller but you're wrong.. You're just following the mainstream narrative that only looks at ring count and media awards that are always wrong in hindsight

[Kblaze8855]

Same thing with Curry - Curry shoots better than Pippen and that's it.

It really really isnt(With Curry not Reggie). How you convince some that you know anything about these people is amazing.

[ShawkFactory]

Same thing with Curry - Curry shoots better than Pippen and that's it.

Miller is superior to Pippen in the same way that Curry is, although to a lesser extent due to era

Similar to Curry, Miller had better stats and performance than Pippen (even against the exact same playoff opponents), so he made the ECF and Finals while Pippen took the Bulls nowhere in 94' and 95'

So you can say Pippen > Miller but you're wrong.. You're just following the mainstream narrative that only looks at ring count and media awards that are always wrong in hindsight

You're right. We should use PPG and FG% with absolutely no other context instead.

Unless is goes against our narrative; in which case context please

[Bronbron23]

How did 94 Pippen win more games than Shaq and Reggie Miller and all he did was trade MJ for Pete Myers?

Miller and shaq did the shit for years. Pip did it one year and the following year he was barely .500 and in danger of missing the playoffs. It took the league a season to figure out the mjless bulls but when they did pip and the bulls struggled.

[ShawkFactory]

Miller and shaq did the shit for years. Pip did it one year and the following year he was barely .500 and in danger of missing the playoffs. It took the league a season to figure out the mjless bulls but when they did pip and the bulls struggled.

Horace was a pretty significant loss

[Bronbron23]

Horace was a pretty significant loss

True but they picked up Kukoc and harper.

[ShawkFactory]

True but they picked up Kukoc and harper.

Horace was a huge part of the first 3peat and not having him is a big reason why Orlando won that series. Bulls didn't have that energy guy to clean the boards and bang defensively, which obviously killed against Shaq (and Horace on the other side for that matter).

Rodman filled that gap the next year and we all saw what happened.

[Real Men Wear Green]

All of that is….about right. Maybe a bit excessive on the last one.

If you learned that OP was burning to death while you were eating a smoked burger with whatever your preferred toppings would you put the burger down?

[Bronbron23]

Horace was a huge part of the first 3peat and not having him is a big reason why Orlando won that series. Bulls didn't have that energy guy to clean the boards and bang defensively, which obviously killed against Shaq (and Horace on the other side for that matter).

Rodman filled that gap the next year and we all saw what happened.

Yeah good point

[MrFonzworth]

1: No one thinks Miller was greater than Pip. Better shooter and that would be the end of it.

2. Putting Pip over Shaq is far dumber than putting Miller over Pip.

3. Basketball is a team sport.

4. Die in a fire.

/Thread

[MadDog]

If you learned that OP was burning to death while you were eating a smoked burger with whatever your preferred toppings would you put the burger down?

Damn lol. Where is the extinguisher?

[3ba11]

Horace was a huge part of the first 3peat and not having him is a big reason why Orlando won that series. Bulls didn't have that energy guy to clean the boards and bang defensively, which obviously killed against Shaq (and Horace on the other side for that matter).

Rodman filled that gap the next year and we all saw what happened.


Nope.. Bronbron23 got you

because he's right...

The Bulls picked up Kukoc, who they won the title with as starting PF in the 98' playoffs... And they won in 97' with Rodman getting 4/8 for the entire playoffs - so the PF position was a rotating chair of nobodies and easily replaceable...

Pippen just wasn't good enough to have a viable team regardless of who was his sidekick because the sidekick can only be a role player (because pippen himself was a role player).. That was the only issue - if Pippen averages better than 21 on 40% against the Knicks, the Bulls win easily.. But pippen wasn't that caliber of player to put up dominant numbers and beat teams, like say, Reggie Miller.

[ShawkFactory]

Nope.. Bronbron23 got you

because he's right...


Bronbron's response to the post you just quoted:


Yeah good point

:confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

Bronbron's response to the post you just quoted:



:confusedshrug:


I'm talking about the Kukoc point.

The Bulls had 2 Horace Grants in 1994 (Grant and Kukoc)

So that blows a hole in everything... People forget about Kukoc... He was easily better than Rodman (at least the 36-year Rodman that joined the Bulls), and arguably better than Grant.

[tpols]

Reggie Miller led teams with minimal talent to the ECFs and Finals. Best he had were 1 time all star types like Smits or Jackson. He consistently outscored, outshot, outproduced and outplayed Pippen in every playoff series with a similar opponent. And he did it without having the GOAT to distract defensive attention.

I've seen guys like Kblaze consistently shit on Miller for offensive no shows yet all evidence shows he did more with less and in the face of tremendous pressure.

When are we as the truthful basketball community going to stand up to these tyrants and their propaganda?

For every bad game they give us of Reggie I could give you 3 from Pippen.

The averages and context don't lie.

[ShawkFactory]

I'm talking about the Kukoc point.

The Bulls had 2 Horace Grants in 1994 (Grant and Kukoc)

So that blows a hole in everything... People forget about Kukoc... He was easily better than Rodman (at least the 36-year Rodman that joined the Bulls), and arguably better than Grant.

Oh my god :oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Ok so there is one idiot other than dumbass 3ball that thinks Miller was better than Pippen

[3ba11]

Oh my god :oldlol:


They added another player of Grant's caliber (kukoc), who won the title as starting PF in 1998.. Then they won the title with Rodman's 4/8 averages in the 97' Playoffs..

So the PF position was easily replaceable... Almost anyone would do, which means the Bronbron23 beat you on that point, and actually busted the entire Pippen argument wide open - so Pippen did infact destroy the Bulls' dynasty in less than 2 years - he was borderline lottery in 95' until MJ returned...

you can look forward to me bringing up this point anytime you try to make excuses for 95' Pippen.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Oh my god :oldlol:

The part you didn't bold face is almost as bad.

[3ba11]

Ok so there is one idiot other than dumbass 3ball that thinks Miller was better than Pippen


Your logic says Pippen > Curry .... (pippen is better at everything except shooting)




Ok so there is one idiot other than dumbass 3ball that thinks Miller was better than Pippen


Miller > Pippen based on :



* winning (carry teams with less help to ECF and Finals, while Pippen lost in 2nd Round and was borderline lottery in 95')

* playoff stats (BPM, PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency)

* playoff stats against same opponents (miller vastly outplayed pippen 5 times against the exact same playoff opponent, including the critical losses against the 90' Pistons and 95' Magic)

* being a 1st option that could achieve elite 1st option stats, while Pippen was a 2nd option that often achieved 3rd and 4th option stats

* having that "curry" effect by having great teams with shit help


The only area where Miller doesn't pass Pippen is accolades because Pippen got a bunch of accolades via winning spotlight that he didn't deserve (hindsight is 20/20) - it's almost like the MVP and all-nba awards should be awarded 20 years after the fact, otherwise the winning spotlight and other biases exclude some players from awards despite having far greater performance and impact... Miller is a prime example of this - he played far better than Pippen ever did with far greater impact on lesser casts (went further with less help, better stats, dominated frequently, far better performance against the exact same comp).

[ELITEpower23]

/Thread

https://i.postimg.cc/fW3mHMJQ/mr_fonzworthless_exposed.png

/you

[tpols]

Ok so there is one idiot other than dumbass 3ball that thinks Miller was better than Pippen

Make an argument tough guy. I would tussle your hair friendly if we met in person. :lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Your logic says Pippen > Curry .... . No that is just you with more of your incessant bullshit. The difference between Curry and Miller as scorers is mammoth.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Make an argument tough guy. I would tussle your hair friendly if we met in person. :lol

And I would politely inform you that I don't date men.

[3ba11]

No that is just you with more of your incessant bullshit. The difference between Curry and Miller as scorers is mammoth.


You said the only thing Miller does better than Pippen is shooting... The same logic applies to Curry, so your logic says Pippen > Curry.

And now you're deflecting and not addressing the point that you brought up.

Regarding the scoring - Miller is a far better scorer and shooter than Pippen with a great impact/spacing effect like Curry - so Miller > Pippen for the same reasons that Curry > Pippen, albiet to a lesser extent...

[Real Men Wear Green]

You said the only thing Miller does better than Pippen is shooting... The same logic applies to Curry, so your logic says Pippen > Curry.

Now you're just deflecting and not addressing the point that you brought up.

Regarding the scoring - Miller is a far better scorer and shooter than Pippen with great impact/spacing effect like Curry - so Miller > Pippen for the same reasons that Curry > Pippen, albiet to a lesser extent.

If you actually watched basketball you would know that Curry excels at creating offense (for himself and others) and not just shooting. Because you don't you just post dumb shit like this every day.

[3ba11]

If you actually watched basketball you would know that Curry excels at creating offense (for himself and others) and not just shooting. Because you don't you just post dumb shit like this every day.


Curry isn't a great creator and neither was Pippen - they're about the same.

The only thing Curry does better is shooting, just like Miller.

You're ignoring Miller's great impact/spacing effect like Curry - Miller > Pippen for the same reasons that Curry > Pippen, albiet to a lesser extent...

Similar to Curry, Miller has many series of elite scoring/efficiency in the playoffs, so he led the Pacers further with no help, while Pippen was a role player by comparison and couldn't lead a team anywhere.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This jackass really thinks Steph doesn't create offense. Moving on.

[3ba11]

This jackass really thinks Steph doesn't create offense. Moving on.


You guys claim Pippen creates offense - so Pippen and Curry are about about the same as creators.

The only thing Curry does better is shooting, just like Miller.

You're ignoring Miller's great impact/spacing effect like Curry - Miller > Pippen for the same reasons that Curry > Pippen, albiet to a lesser extent...

Similar to Curry, Miller has many series of elite scoring/efficiency in the playoffs, so he led the Pacers further with no help, while Pippen was a role player by comparison and couldn't lead a team anywhere.

[tpols]

And I would politely inform you that I don't date men.

In the joint you would be. Passive aggressiveness wont get you far with those big lips honey.

[ShawkFactory]

Ok so there is one idiot other than dumbass 3ball that thinks Miller was better than Pippen

Legit one of the dumbest things he's ever said. That's saying a lot

[3ba11]

Legit one of the dumbest things he's ever said. That's saying a lot


If a player has better capability in the following categories:



* winning capability/better playoff runs
* domination capability
* clutch capability
* impact
* stats
* stats against same opponents


how could he not be ranked higher?

there's literally no argument for pippen over miller except media awards that are always wrong in hindsight (humans are usually wrong and need hindsight)

[Kblaze8855]

Curry isn't a great creator and neither was Pippen - they're about the same..

As among the biggest Pippen fans alive and someone who saw every speck of his career….that’s still one of the 30 or so dumbest things anyone ever typed on ish.

You have to be the worst person to agree with. You make some of the most head scratching comments and the people on your side just have to pretend you didn’t say them. Tpols has it the worst. Forever popping into topics to agree with your general points and then have to deal with you going so far left he can’t possibly follow then having to pretend not to notice you are the worst talent evaluator to maybe ever live in order to keep up the idea that you know what you’re taking about on other issues.

Youre like a math teacher who has a class that loves him despite not knowing what 2 plus 2 equals. An absolute cult of personality. It shouldn’t work on adults though. But these guys on here absolutely know you know nothing about the game but have to nod along because of your shared agendas. These guys need a new leader. Maybe I’ll take over the over the top hating role for a while. My heart wouldn’t be in it but I wouldn’t make the people who have to follow me look bad by association.

[Kblaze8855]

. For every bad game they give us of Reggie I could give you 3 from Pippen.

The averages and context don't lie. .


Sure they don’t. And then Reggie himself….not me….Reggie…says the player he most wished he had the game of was Pippen because he absolutely dominates even when he has 5 points. He could be honest in admitting his contribution was mostly scoring and that when he didn’t score he couldn’t take over…while Pippen routinely controlled games scoring or not.


Knowing this….you still claim you can point out a bad game from Pippen the same way you can with Reggie. Looking at numbers.

Reggie Miller scoring few points is hardly a factor. Pippen has scored 4 points and had both teams saying he owned the game. One would figure this would help you understand the issue with game log judgements but you are a follower of a guy who thinks Steph Curry can’t create so….maybe I give you too much credit.

[8Ball]

1: No one thinks Miller was greater than Pip. Better shooter and that would be the end of it.

2. Putting Pip over Shaq is far dumber than putting Miller over Pip.

3. Basketball is a team sport.

4. Die in a fire.

Real Men Wear Green.

This thread is just a carbon copy of the variety of 3ball threads. Did you not compare thread title?


You allow 3ball to make over 1000 LeBron troll threads, these other troll threads is what you get.

[000]

Miller may have been better than Pippen. But he was also ahead of Mike. Took his bulls to 7 with just rik smits

[SaintzFury13]

I can now add "Curry doesn't create offense" to the list of batshit insane takes from 3ball.

[outofstomach]

As among the biggest Pippen fans alive and someone who saw every speck of his career….that’s still one of the 30 or so dumbest things anyone ever typed on ish.

You have to be the worst person to agree with. You make some of the most head scratching comments and the people on your side just have to pretend you didn’t say them. Tpols has it the worst. Forever popping into topics to agree with your general points and then have to deal with you going so far left he can’t possibly follow then having to pretend not to notice you are the worst talent evaluator to maybe ever live in order to keep up the idea that you know what you’re taking about on other issues.

Youre like a math teacher who has a class that loves him despite not knowing what 2 plus 2 equals. An absolute cult of personality. It shouldn’t work on adults though. But these guys on here absolutely know you know nothing about the game but have to nod along because of your shared agendas. These guys need a new leader. Maybe I’ll take over the over the top hating role for a while. My heart wouldn’t be in it but I wouldn’t make the people who have to follow me look bad by association.i like 3ball but jesus :lol

[Sportal]

Bulls so loaded that you're comparing Pacers 1st option to Pippen?

Reggie Miller averaged 2 more points than Pippen across their CAREERS. The 1st option star player for the Pacers... Jordan's competition... Pippen averaged 3 more rebounds, and 2 more assists in his career than Miller... The second best player on the Bulls... Was a better ball player than one of Jordan's main competitors in the 90s.

Their best seasons as "The Man" of their teams, this is regular season, best year for PPG:

93/94 Pippen: 22ppg, 8.7rebs, 5.6asts, TWO POINT NINE STEALS.

89/90 Miller: 24.6ppg, 3.6rebs, 3.8asts, 1.9stls.

3ball wants to tell us that Miller was better than Pippen? We can talk playoff output, sure.... Alright.

Best output in playoffs by PPG:

92/93 Miller: 31.5ppg, 3rebs, 2.8asts... 4 games played He has another season like this in the playoffs, again 4 games played.

93/94 Pippen: 22.8ppg, 8.3rebs, 4.6asts, 2.4stls... 10 games played.

There is literally ZERO chance you could convince people that Miller was a better player than Pippen.

I posted this the other day... and 3iq proceeded to post the PER, PPG, and FG% of the 2nd best player on the Bulls, vs the 1st best player of the Pacers against teams they both played. Whilst completely ignoring the blatant impact on the game that both players have.

The last two years of the NBA, the leading steals has been 2.1SPG... Pippen did this or more 5 times in 12 seasons... Typically the 2nd highest steals are around 1.9... Pippen did this or more 9 times in 12 seasons... That would pretty much get him 9 1st team all defensive in the league today... He has better than Simmons defense, a guy that made the 1st team, has had 8 seasons higher than Ben's best PPG season, rebounds around the same, and isn't as good a passer. A better defense, not scared to shoot Ben Simmons... is what Jordan had as a sidekick...

[Reggie43]

Being a better player doesnt guarantee you wins regardless how much more skilled/versatile he might be especially one with glaring mental weaknesses.

The Pacers led by Miller have beaten better players on more talented and higher seeded teams quite a few times.

Believe it or not some guys could make teams better without having gaudy all around numbers on the boxscore. Having great leadership, mental toughness, bringing intensity on both ends while spacing the floor and setting up guys to allow them to play to their strengths are some things that dont show on the stat sheet that has a huge impact on winning ball games.

[Kblaze8855]

Being a better player doesnt guarantee you wins regardless how much more skilled/versatile he might be especially one with glaring mental weaknesses.

The Pacers led by Miller have beaten better players on more talented and higher seeded teams quite a few times.

That’s kinda just….being an nba player for a long time.

Reggies team beat a higher seed 3 times in 18 years and all 3 were in 2 seasons. 2 of the 3 “upsets” were vs teams who won only 3 more games and the biggest was against the Hawks who had traded Nique with the best record in the East went into the playoffs with Manning and Mookie. Not exactly juggernauts.

They beat some more talented individuals on teams that won about the same as them and beat the Hawks who scared precisely nobody. And when you consider they also didn’t win a series for 6 years in a row(4 of which were Reggie at his best) it’s hard to say he was just willing anything to happen.

The biggest upset of his career was probably going the other way when MJ was out of the picture and they lost with the best record in the East to the 8th seed who also had their leading scorer go down.

Reggie had what was his best shot ever to make it and was maybe the 5th best player that series and got absolutely destroyed by Houston to get eliminated as he shot 3-18 for 8 points. An unusually aggressive off night for him in truth since usually when he has role player production it’s because he couldn’t or didn’t get shots off(like the 2 12 point games also from that series).

The Pacers were…when they contended…a deep group of borderline but not quite all stars(peaking with 5 all star players Reggie being the oldest of them and not counting Mullin). Yea they best bigger names at times because their small names were all good players. Their only real upsets were in a 2 year period when they had five players aged between 25 and 29 who made all star games in their career and Derek Mckey who was….all around…,probably better than all 5 of them(at least 3 HOF coaches those years believed he was the best player on that team as you certainly remember being posted). That isn’t some bad or even average team.

Reggie was on some really good, physical, scrappy teams that you and I both know get overlooked talent wise because they weren’t famous names. The 4th best big on those teams was in his absolute prime(26) and later an all star and Vince Carter’s second best player.

When they were running and gunning with bigger names and more offensive talent like Person and Detlef with Reggie scoring like he never was later they were just losing 120-125. Larry Brown making them play physical and beat you with brains and toughness turned them around not anything Reggie did. Reggie might well have never won anything had they kept leaning on him to just go at people. It’s not totally out of the question. He was 28 when they finally won a series. Whatever the case he clearly wasn’t just willing anything to happen with those traits you mentioned.

Him being de-emphasized to focus on winning with defense and an overwhelming inside presence is the best thing that ever happened to the Pacers.

You could have ran and let Reggie score 30K instead of 25 and had people saying “Yea but he never won anything” to this day. Well even more I mean. Since he still technically…never won anything. But you know what I mean.

Reggie had his moments and obvious had a great and HOF worthy career it’s just that in the league he was in did not generally allow players like him to be the kind of difference maker you suggest he was. Guys like him….Houston…given enough defenders and physical bigs can turn the tide in those low scoring games. But you can’t be great just because of them.


Today?

Whole other story. As I’ve said the freedom of movement rules would make Reggie absolutely unguardable. Especially if you take him from the mid to late 90s when he’d gotten used to all the hand fighting and holding so he would fee like today’s D wasn’t even there.

1995 Reggie in 2021….potential mvp discussion. He’d put up a comfortable 27 a game and do a lot more of what you suggested he did back then. His spacing would be taken advantage of. He’d be taking 13 threes a game. Whole different approach.

But it is what it is.

[Reggie43]

He is de emphasized but still scores the same number of points and actually plays better in the playoffs?

Phil Jackson picking Mckey over Miller is classic Zen tactics. Larry Brown being hard on his best player is classic Larry Brown. Not sure if the third coach was George Karl but he is pretty self explanatory.

Three years, three playoff matchups Pacers led by Miller beat Houston's Knicks twice yet we focus on that lone loss.

I love how you managed to name guys like Manning and Mookie yet fail to mention that the Miller led Pacers won against guys like Shaq, Penny, Ewing, Iverson, Ray Allen etc.

[Reggie43]

https://youtu.be/3yif1LTsPms

Its easy to see how Phil Jackson would hate Miller with his dirty style of play and trashtalk especially with them being division rivals but yeah him saying Derrick Mckey is better than Miller is not something born out of animosity lol.

[Kblaze8855]

Why would I bring up wins vs lower seeds when you were talking upsets? A deep team of good vets beating some bigger names never mattered. Gus Williams beat like 12 hall of famers in 3 years and nobody even knows who that is. See anyone talking up Dale Ellis for beating Hakeem twice one of them when he still had Ralph Sampson(and as a lower seed)? Nobody gives a shit and nobody should. That’s just being in the nba. Might as well talk about how many times Rip Hamilton beat such and such as if it weren’t an ensemble team he usually led in scoring while not being the best total player. If the best players automatically beat worse ones Kareem would have 12 rings and Jordan would have like 9. That isn’t how any of this works. Shaq lost a worse opposing best player like 9 times. Bird 6 or 7 at least. Hakeem probably 10 times. Wilt 11-12. Losing to a group of 10 players all worse than you individually but similar or better team wise is hardly rare. That’s just basketball.


And assign whatever reason you want to what a bunch of coaches said. Point is….the team had a gang of good players and the one who was never an all star was regarded as better than all of them by a number of qualified people. It was an ensemble team. Pretty much the definition. Smits was usually the first option when he was in the floor but he played few minutes with his health and having so many good bigs. Reggie would score the most usually because he played more minutes. Mckey was the best all around player. The Davis boys beat up everyone inside and set great screens for Reggie. Mark Jackson actually made the offense go. It was a lot of moving parts and depending on the night any of 3-4 people could be the biggest cog.

As a group they won some mild upsets(3 game difference) and beat the Hawks we both would call frauds but….it happened. That’s their big upset. And it isn’t nearly as much of an upset as the one they gave up themselves losing to the 8th seed to allow a Knicks team with no Ewing to make the finals when they had the best record in the East.

You playing up some 47 win vs 50 win matchups like upsets of note and talking about an ensemble cast winning with a worse set of names as if that has not happened for 75 years. Well coached, defensive minded, physical teams of lower end names have been knocking off superstars on worse functioning teams yearly our entire lives. I’m sure Terry Cummings talks up beating Michael Jordan quite a bit. And I’m sure Michael Ray Richardson had plenty of meals on the house for beating Moses, Doc, and 3 additional stars. Nobody else cares.

My 10 beating your 10 does not require my 1-2 being better than yours.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/3yif1LTsPms

Its easy to see how Phil Jackson would hate Miller with his dirty style of play and trashtalk especially with them being division rivals but yeah him saying Derrick Mckey is better than Miller is not something born out of animosity lol.



We can play the “____ didn’t mean it. Let me tell you what he really thought” game forever. People love that game. All I have is the fact they all(and others) said it. Opposing coaches and the coach of the team said the same thing. You can put the reasons why in their mouths if you want. I assume it’s the reason coaches always fall in love with the guys who do it all. Coaches care about basketball. Fans care about scoring. With few exceptions you always hear coaches talking about the defense first….even ones like Kerr with generational offensive talent. Coaches aren’t looking at the game the way fans do. They will always love a Mckey, Rodman, Dumars, Bobby Jones or a Dennis Johnson more than fans will.

Coaches watch games not the ball.

I assume that’s where the praise of great total players comes from….but that’s me putting words in mouths too.

All I can say is what I saw. And it seems a lot of high level basketball people saw the same thing in this particular case.

[Reggie43]

Why would I bring up wins vs lower seeds when you were talking upsets? A deep team of good vets beating some bigger names never mattered. Gus Williams beat like 12 hall of famers in 3 years and nobody even knows who that is. See anyone talking up Dale Ellis for beating Hakeem twice one of them when he still had Ralph Sampson(and as a lower seed)? Nobody gives a shit and nobody should. That’s just being in the nba. Might as well talk about how many times Rip Hamilton beat such and such as if it weren’t an ensemble team he usually led in scoring while not being the best total player. If the best players automatically beat worse ones Kareem would have 12 rings and Jordan would have like 9. That isn’t how any of this works. Shaq lost a worse opposing best player like 9 times. Bird 6 or 7 at least. Hakeem probably 10 times. Wilt 11-12. Losing to a group of 10 players all worse than you individually but similar or better team wise is hardly rare. That’s just basketball.


And assign whatever reason you want to what a bunch of coaches said. Point is….the team had a gang of good players and the one who was never an all star was regarded as better than all of them by a number of qualified people. It was an ensemble team. Pretty much the definition. Smits was usually the first option when he was in the floor but he played few minutes with his health and having so many good bigs. Reggie would score the most usually because he played more minutes. Mckey was the best all around player. The Davis boys beat up everyone inside and set great screens for Reggie. Mark Jackson actually made the offense go. It was a lot of moving parts and depending on the night any of 3-4 people could be the biggest cog.

As a group they won some mild upsets(3 game difference) and beat the Hawks we both would call frauds but….it happened. That’s their big upset. And it isn’t nearly as much of an upset as the one they gave up themselves losing to the 8th seed to allow a Knicks team with no Ewing to make the finals when they had the best record in the East.

You playing up some 47 win vs 50 win matchups like upsets of note and talking about an ensemble cast winning with a worse set of names as if that has not happened for 75 years. Well coached, defensive minded, physical teams of lower end names have been knocking off superstars on worse functioning teams yearly our entire lives. I’m sure Terry Cummings talks up beating Michael Jordan quite a bit. And I’m sure Michael Ray Richardson had plenty of meals on the house for beating Moses, Doc, and 3 additional stars. Nobody else cares.

My 10 beating your 10 does not require my 1-2 being better than yours.

Who said anything about upsets? You could backread all you want but you just made walls of text about something that was never said to begin with.

The only constant on those teams are Dale Davis and Reggie Miller. Who gets the credit when they were making the Conference Finals without Mark Jackson in 94? Derrick Mckey was a shell of himself due to injuries in 98, 99 and 2000 how did they make deep playoff runs without his all around brilliance? The year they made the Finals Smits had limited mins due to his bad feet that forced him to retire while Antonio Davis was traded away at the start of the season did they still have an advantage with their bigmen inside? or is Jalen Rose the next in line to get all the credit?

[Reggie43]

We can play the “____ didn’t mean it. Let me tell you what he really thought” game forever. People love that game. All I have is the fact they all(and others) said it. Opposing coaches and the coach of the team said the same thing. You can put the reasons why in their mouths if you want. I assume it’s the reason coaches always fall in love with the guys who do it all. Coaches care about basketball. Fans care about scoring. With few exceptions you always hear coaches talking about the defense first….even ones like Kerr with generational offensive talent. Coaches aren’t looking at the game the way fans do. They will always love a Mckey, Rodman, Dumars, Bobby Jones or a Dennis Johnson more than fans will.

Coaches watch games not the ball.

I assume that’s where the praise of great total players comes from….but that’s me putting words in mouths too.

All I can say is what I saw. And it seems a lot of high level basketball people saw the same thing in this particular case.

So anything they say is treated as gospel because they are "high level basketball people" Pretty sure you know how many outrageous quotes/opinions that has come out of those coaches mouths or do we only pick the things that would suit our agenda?

[Kblaze8855]

First if all….this is what I quoted:


.The Pacers led by Miller have beaten better players on more talented and higher seeded teams quite a few times.



Which is why I talked about the seeds.



And what you mentioned is exactly the strength of an ensemble team. The Pistons were good to great for 7-8 years including without Billups and Rip to begin it….without Ben Wallace for like 3 50 something win seasons….Sheed wasn’t there for the first 3 years or so and was washed at the end.

The 50 win carlisle second round team and the 59 or whatever win team 6 years later had virtually no common players. May have had 2 common players from the 03 ecf team. Teams that don’t rely on one player don’t come apart when he leaves or slows down.

That’s the entire point of playing that way….

No individual makes you good on an ensemble team. Obviously Reggie didn’t when they lost Jackson and missed the playoffs as Reggie played 81 games and they had to go get him back.

None of those guys made that team good. They all just played a part.

They had no single player making it all work like some superstars are capable of. You know that better than anyone.

[Kblaze8855]

So anything they say is treated as gospel because they are "high level basketball people" Pretty sure you know how many outrageous quotes/opinions that has come out of those coaches mouths or do we only pick the things that would suit our agenda?


Ive always been the first to point out that most everything said is contradictory to something else if you look hard enough.


Im absolutely positive you could find Larry Brown saying Reggie is their best player.

Im also absolutely positive he and many others said otherwise.

It being in the realm of possibility however is why it’s worth mentioning especially places like this where so few of us even remember the time in question.

I’ve had people who were 5 at the time upset with me for sharing the same opinion the actual coach of this team held…

Think maybe it’s worth pointing out how common it was when people who don’t remember assume it’s an outlier?

[Reggie43]

First if all….this is what I quoted:





Which is why I talked about the seeds.



And what you mentioned is exactly the strength of an ensemble team. The Pistons were good to great for 7-8 years including without Billups and Rip to begin it….without Ben Wallace for like 3 50 something win seasons….Sheed wasn’t there for the first 3 years or so and was washed at the end.

The 50 win carlisle second round team and the 59 or whatever win team 6 years later had virtually no common players. May have had 2 common players from the 03 ecf team. Teams that don’t rely on one player don’t come apart when he leaves or slows down.

That’s the entire point of playing that way….

No individual makes you good on an ensemble team. Obviously Reggie didn’t when they lost Jackson and missed the playoffs as Reggie played 81 games and they had to go get him back.

None of those guys made that team good. They all just played a part.

They had no single player making it all work like some superstars are capable of. You know that better than anyone.

Rik Smits played in only 52 games, Mckey 50 games while their backup pg in Workman was injured for the season but I guess you failed to mention these because it doesnt fit your narrative.

[Kblaze8855]

I failed to mention it because it isn’t particularly noteworthy. Smits only played 63 games the year before and Mckey 57 the year after. I’m definitely not talking about the backup point guard situation. All of it folds into the original point….nobody on that team was individually responsible for it being good or not. It was never that kind of lineup. It was a gang of people in a bunch of configurations winning as a team. I could have gone into Best, Mullin, Jalen and so on but I didn’t think we needed to do all that. When I say the Pistons had an ensemble team I don’t think I need to talk about Big Nasty, Okur, and Hunter for you to get what I mean. I’ll talk to you about Sam Perkins all day if you like but I think we would be alone in that.

Next man up is what ensemble teams are all about. You swap guys in and out to keep it all moving because none of them can do it alone. It’s the only way for teams without dominant individuals to play. If Reggie were one such individual nobody would even listen to who was and wasn’t there because the assumption would be he could carry them. But that isn’t how they played. Reggie was right to allow it. He needed to step up more individually at times but that isn’t news to you. It’s exactly what teammates and coaches were often talking about. I can see how years of true team ball made him hesitant to change what got them to be good in the first place….but you can sense a real hesitation in him when he’d talk about it.

Like when they were on him about taking like 9 shots and not going to get it when a play broke down in the playoffs and Jackson had to take a foul line floater as Reggie watched. He acknowledged Bird was right that he had to be the star and go get it but he added a quip about them wanting him to be a ball hog and take 15-20 shots that made it sound like he thought that wasn’t how to play.

He’s one of those guys you respect the approach of….it’s “right” but it’s just not what a team low on individual scoring talent needs all the time.

Ideally it would be ensemble for 40 minutes….Reggie and the Millerettes for like 8…and that is the impression a lot of modern fans have. But it isn’t what we both know actually happened.

Its a tough line to walk in all fairness.

[Kblaze8855]

Mostly unrelated but I just saw Ray and Reggie acknowledging each other recently


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2109090442500325.jpeg





Just something for us old people to nod at.

[Reggie43]

What a huge stretch talking about missed games individually in 1996 and 1998 to justify what happened in 1997 wherein they missed 62 games combined.

Was anybody calling them an ensemble team after the 1994 playoffs when he led the team in scoring at 23 a game with the next guy having just 16 points with nobody else reaching double figures?

How about the next year when he upped his scoring to almost 26 ppg on great percentages and was one win away from making the Finals where they an ensemble team then?

1998 with their great depth was probably the only year you could call them an ensemble team and I honestly believed that even back then. Their bench if healthy was basically as good as their starters.

A guy like Jordan had the luxury of playing with guys like Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc with only trolls criticizing how much help he had. Why cant Miller rely on Smits, Davis, Mckey etc without his contributions as the best player on the team be diminished.

[Reggie43]

Mostly unrelated but I just saw Ray and Reggie acknowledging each other recently


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2109090442500325.jpeg





Just something for us old people to nod at.

Yeah they are friends and Miller was actually his presenter for the Hall of fame. Most of his rivals back then were only rivals on the court and it looks like he had decent relationships with them after their playing days outside of the lip service of him wanting to punch Jordan if he meets him again lol.

[Kblaze8855]

What a huge stretch talking about missed games individually in 1996 and 1998 to justify what happened in 1997 wherein they missed 62 games combined.

Was anybody calling them an ensemble team after the 1994 playoffs when he led the team in scoring at 23 a game with the next guy having just 16 points with nobody else reaching double figures?

How about the next year when he upped his scoring to almost 26 ppg on great percentages and was one win away from making the Finals where they an ensemble team then?

1998 with their great depth was probably the only year you could call them an ensemble team and I honestly believed that even back then. Their bench if healthy was basically as good as their starters.

A guy like Jordan had the luxury of playing with guys like Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc with only trolls criticizing how much help he had. Why cant Miller rely on Smits, Davis, Mckey etc without his contributions as the best player on the team be diminished.


Of course people still knew they were an ensemble. And so do you until someone else says it:





Those 90s Pacers teams to me had really good players which were all equally important to the success of the team. While most of the highlights were provided by Miller, those pacers are not winning any games without the post play of Smits, the rebounding and defense of the Davis Brothers, Mark jacksons floor leadership and the versatility and defense provided by Mckey. Too bad that Mckey was getting past his prime when they had their best teams in 1998. All the versatility, rebounding, defense and hustle is what that 98 pacers teams lacked that Mckey could have provided to get over the hump


^You not me.


You just pick and choose when to acknowledge what you know. I’m not sure why that is but….you’ve never been a dick about any of it so I enjoy talking to you about such things.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah they are friends and Miller was actually his presenter for the Hall of fame. Most of his rivals back then were only rivals on the court and it looks like he had decent relationships with them after their playing days outside of the lip service of him wanting to punch Jordan if he meets him again lol.


Reggie seems really nice and well liked when you see panels like open court or something with his peers. I heard someone who was around the team say he’s a jerk in person but I wouldn’t know. I’ve never been close enough to speak to him. Everyone rubs someone wrong.

[Reggie43]

Of course people still knew they were an ensemble. And so do you until someone else says it:







^You not me.


You just pick and choose when to acknowledge what you know. I’m not sure why that is but….you’ve never been a dick about any of it so I enjoy talking to you about such things.

The point is he was the best player on his teams at his peak/prime. This wasnt a Ben, Rip,Rasheed, Billups type situation where you could make good cases for each as the best on the team unless some random coaches praise Tayshaun as their best all around player

Outside of Olajuwon nobody has won without decent teammates. Jordan and Pippen losing early in the playoffs because they need their enforcer is no different with Miller and Smits relying on the Davis bros for toughness and defense in the paint.

[Kblaze8855]

. The point is he was the best player on his teams at his peak/prime. This wasnt a Ben, Rip,Rasheed, Billups type situation where you could make good cases for each as the best on the team unless some random coaches praise Tayshaun as their best all around player


You are free to think it. Fact is….multiple people on that team have been called it’s best player by people more informed than you or I including the teams coach. As I said you can assign whatever motivations you want to it….the facts are what they are. In Reggies prime multiple other on his team were called better. He was routinely ranked alongside people 25 years later considered role players….



Reggie Miller, by reputation one of the premier marksmen in the game, was rated at least even in his pre-series matchup with Starks. He shoots almost 48 percent, but the numbers don't say that Miller works off continuous screens, that in the face of severe defensive heat he can't advance the ball.

By comparison, Riley in the fourth quarter was able to shift Starks to the point. Within a period of 4 minutes 14 seconds, Starks twice broke the Pacers' defense down -- leading to 4 points by Oakley -- and banged home a couple of 3-pointers as the Knicks went from a point behind to 7 points ahead.





Reggie being a very limited player skills wise was always brought up in serious breakdowns.


You can apply whatever motivation you want….when a teams coach says:




. "I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."


Hes clearly talking about his players limitations and saying nothing we don’t all know to be true. A guy with that opinion who is a 3 decade lover of defense and playing the “right way” thinking Mckey is better at the game isn’t that shocking.

Fans always lean towards the scorer. Coaches lean towards total players and people who make their schemes work. Back then when writers were expected to know the game beyond tv hot takes they had more skill related breakdowns as I posted earlier. The idea that Reggie was clearly the best on that team is something held much more loosely as you go up the ranks of knowledgeable observers because the least informed casual fans always care about points first of all and the more attention you pay the more you value the total game.

Coaches not being blown away by Reggie is not that hard to believe. They picked smaller names to make the all star game over him 13-14 times. You can call them wrong in retrospect but they were NOT that impressed at the time. Everyone loves everyone in a career recap. At the time?

Reggie wasnt all that respected. Just the truth. The why is for you to decide. Apply whatever motivations you need to feel better about it. People DID put some of his teammates over him and a lot of lesser remembered players on other teams. Saying it can’t be done a quarter century removed doesn’t change that it already was. Mckey, Smits, Detlef, and Mark Jackson were all called the Pacers best player at times and you know I can prove most of it from years of it being posted. Saying nobody can make the case is just weird. People made it. Right or wrong…..people made that case and believed it.

[BigShotBob]

As among the biggest Pippen fans alive and someone who saw every speck of his career….that’s still one of the 30 or so dumbest things anyone ever typed on ish.

You have to be the worst person to agree with. You make some of the most head scratching comments and the people on your side just have to pretend you didn’t say them. Tpols has it the worst. Forever popping into topics to agree with your general points and then have to deal with you going so far left he can’t possibly follow then having to pretend not to notice you are the worst talent evaluator to maybe ever live in order to keep up the idea that you know what you’re taking about on other issues.

Youre like a math teacher who has a class that loves him despite not knowing what 2 plus 2 equals. An absolute cult of personality. It shouldn’t work on adults though. But these guys on here absolutely know you know nothing about the game but have to nod along because of your shared agendas. These guys need a new leader. Maybe I’ll take over the over the top hating role for a while. My heart wouldn’t be in it but I wouldn’t make the people who have to follow me look bad by association.

It's my time to shine as the leader of the Kobe fam

[Reggie43]

The problem with this is you think very lowly of his impact outside of shooting the ball, the leadership and other intagibles he brought to the table.

Apparently he cant dribble when I have shown highlights of whole games with him constantly beating his man off the dribble and finishing in the paint even with contact in the playoffs.

He cant play defense yet the Pacers has been one the top defensive teams of the era in part because of Millers intensity and physicality at that end of the floor. Having a slow backcourt mate in Jackson basically forces him to be a better and fundamentally sound defender.

Jordan himself said he was the one guy he hated playing against because of the aforementioned physicality on both ends.


“I don’t really dislike anybody in the league, but playing Reggie Miller drives me nuts. It’s like chicken-fighting with a woman. His game is all this flopping-type thing. He weighs only 185 pounds, so you have to be careful, don’t touch him, or it’s a foul.”

“On offense, I use all my 215 pounds and just move him out. But he has his hands on you all the time, like a woman holding your waist. I just want to beat his hands off because it’s illegal. It irritates me.”

Here is Kobe saying he was the all time hardest player to guard


https://youtu.be/NbJp4DEON2Q

One and two in the greatest shooting guards list giving him props, both coincidentally he had fights against and they still choose to say what they say.

He wouldnt get this much respect from his peers if he was just a shooter but him being able to affect goat level players that way means he was much much more than that.

[ELITEpower23]

It's my time to shine as the leader of the Kobe fam

Leader of the top 12 fam? 12 isn't much to fight for, have fun with that chico.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s weird you say that I said such and such as if I’m not giving you word for word other people saying it. His coach tells you he can’t dribble and you talk about me saying it. Reggie having limited guard skills isn’t my opinion. It was the opinion of everyone who watched games for 20 years. Talking about clips of him taking people off the dribble like I need them shown to me….

Im the guy with clips of everything. I could show you clips of 3 dozen people without handles beating guys off the dribble. Centers have nasty faceup crossovers from time to time. I can clip you to death to make anyone look like anything.

I could make a 40 minute video of him passing it ahead when pressured or picking up his dribble in the half court vs a half assed reach in.

Reggie played a long time and scored a lot. Of course there are clips of him doing things. I made a lot. Some are in my stash:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImmaculateDistinctFerret-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PlayfulYawningDalmatian-size_restricted.gif







just something I had for a laugh in some dumb 3ball topic. I could make a Muggsy post D compilation showing him holding his own in the post vs Jordan, Pippen, Drazen and others.

Lets not play the clip game. I am the clip game. I know better than anyone it’s all just for a laugh and can make anyone look like anything. Tell me I don’t have a whole game of Ben Wallace attacking and making jumpers. Tell me I don’t so I can make this point.

The guy wasn’t bursting with guard skills. You feel free to list the good guards with worse handles to come into the league the last 35 years. As the article I posted suggested..,.you can give Starks the ball to run the offense. Reggie is a spectator. Reggie can’t consistently run a pick and roll. His handles are like a big small forward would have back then. Point A to point B handles. Don’t ask him to protect the ball in traffic or pass off the dribble.

Just wasn’t in his bag regularly.

Doesnt mean he can’t be hard to defend when doing so means running into Dale Davis 44 times a game. I don’t want run into Dale Davis all night either.

Doesn’t mean the frustrating night is gonna result in much. I’m sure it’s physically easier to get blown by for 44 than to get beat up for Reggie to score 22. Doesn’t mean he’s actually accomplishing more. Reggie was not noteworthy in anything but moving off the ball and shooting.


Good things to be good at obviously….but we don’t need to pretend teams were worried about his contribution in any other area of the game. He’s not gonna pick you apart with his playmaking and you aren’t generally trying to limit his offense wrecking defense either. He’s not gonna rebound or keep rebounding wings from doing so. He could fight with you a bit and had a few clever charges drawn.

Hes somewhere between terrible and “Ok….not bad. I see you trying.” in every aspect of the game other than those I credited him with. It being hard to deal with what he could do well doesn’t man he did a lot of things well.

[Reggie43]

Its a given that he cant play point guard obviously but him beating guys off the dribble on the face up is part of his repertoire every game. He had a quick first step that he used to either set up his midrange jumper, draw the foul or go all the way to the rim. He was better at that aspect of the game than guys known for their handles. Its almost impossible to see him not doing it so lets not act like you didnt know what I meant.

[Reggie43]

He was bad at dribbling the ball against double teams but he knew his weaknesses so he never forced these things and knew exactly when to dribble and pass the ball to break the pressure.



https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 533dcfac-8ec6-4f57-bdfb-646fc16e2890_450x330.gif

This was a regular play from Miller


https://media1.tenor.com/images/60c70c864f14e3c81c26844ecb3a40d7/tenor.gif?itemid=21290078

This is an extraordinarily rare play and actually thought it was Mark Jackson at first glance

[hateraid]

It really really isnt(With Curry not Reggie). How you convince some that you know anything about these people is amazing.

Ban him

[Kblaze8855]

Just posting those plays as your argument is making my point for me. Reggie Miller had moves middle school wings have. Yao Ming went behind the back around people in transition. I’m gonna ask again since I’d genuinely like to see who you come up with…..

Which guards to enter the league in the 34 years since he did…do you personally think had worse handles than Reggie?

I won’t go into your list. I want to see what you give me….because I’m not sure who you go with. Reggie is near the floor for handles as a viable nba guard. You start thinking of shooters some names come to mind but an awful lot of those names could still initiate an offense better than Reggie could.

That wasn’t his job….and there’s a very good reason for it.

Reggie wouldn’t even have great handles for a power forward. He would not be on the bigman short list for guys with handles which is rare for a guard. Neither in flash or substance was he a normal ball handler for a guard. I suspect I could name more bigs with better handles than him than you could name smalls with worse.

You throw it to him to bring it up it’s because the real ball handler got trapped. He can run up the floor with it like anyone with any basketball experience could but when he gets there he’s not generally gonna do anything but wait for his point to get back into the play. He just didn’t have guard handles and passing off the dribble. It’s ok. He obviously made it work. But let’s not act like he wouldn’t be the worst ball handling guard on most teams in the league at any given moment.

Even a lot of the old “have to look at the ball” guards had more control under duress than Reggie.

He was always kinda robotic. Give you two or three dribbles and start sweating. He did what he did well. He scored 35 thousand points so it’s not like it made him ineffective. It just limited what he could be asked to do. Everyone has limits. His was having handles like me in the nba.

[Reggie43]

My point is I agree with you lol. What I am specifically saying is that he had that great one on one face up move that was effective that he used to blow past defenders. At his peak he was shooting more free throws than Olajuwon, Drexler and Dominique because that quick first step is the move he used to draw fouls. He was almost at eight freethrows per game which is unheard of for a shooter.

Anybody who has watched him knows he was a weak ballhandler but he knows his limitations and knows how to delegate roles and make plays for his teams in other ways. He was great at reading double teams and giving post entry passes to set up teammates while spacing the floor for them. The most important thing is he was willing to do all these to a fault wherein he gets criticized for being too unselfish when his only goal is to play the right way.

[tpols]

One would figure this would help you understand the issue with game log judgements but you are a follower of a guy who thinks Steph Curry can’t create so….maybe I give you too much credit.


I follow myself and what I see. Just because I agree with somebody on a set of particular points doesn't mean I agree with them on everything they've ever said. That's an asinine black and white thing to assume.

What it boils down to is you are to Reggie Miller what 3Ball is to Pippen. You are the 3Ball of Reggie Miller. Saying shit like he lacks skill. Guy averaged 24 PPG on super elite efficiency in an era teams scored in the 80s and 90s. And he was built like a stickman... zero athleticism. So it was all skill.

We have posters here breaking it down showing you him taking guys off the dribble, reverse layups and AND1s on top of all the ridiculous off the ball shot making and you have the balls to say he lacks skills.

You're just not a credible source on this topic.

[ShawkFactory]

I follow myself and what I see. Just because I agree with somebody on a set of particular points doesn't mean I agree with them on everything they've ever said. That's an asinine black and white thing to assume.

What it boils down to is you are to Reggie Miller what 3Ball is to Pippen. You are the 3Ball of Reggie Miller. Saying shit like he lacks skill. Guy averaged 24 PPG on super elite efficiency in an era teams scored in the 80s and 90s. And he was built like a stickman... zero athleticism. So it was all skill.

We have posters here breaking it down showing you him taking guys off the dribble, reverse layups and AND1s on top of all the ridiculous off the ball shot making and you have the balls to say he lacks skills.

You're just not a credible source on this topic.

That’s like saying a person who is skinny because they have a quick metabolism is the same as someone who is skinny because they were bullied in middle school.

[Kblaze8855]

.What it boils down to is you are to Reggie Miller what 3Ball is to Pippen. You are the 3Ball of Reggie Miller. Saying shit like he lacks skill. Guy averaged 24 PPG on super elite efficiency in an era teams scored in the 80s and 90s. And he was built like a stickman... zero athleticism. So it was all skill.

We have posters here breaking it down showing you him taking guys off the dribble, reverse layups and AND1s on top of all the ridiculous off the ball shot making and you have the balls to say he lacks skills.

You're just not a credible source on this topic.



The biggest Reggie fan on ish who actually remember him as I do says:


My point is I agree with you lol.



His actual coach says:


"He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."



The only people with a big issue with what I say are people like you who have no idea what they are talking about. The person I’m talking to in this topic…has time and time again pointed out your wrong conclusions and said the exact same people I say are better…are better. He and I disagree on finer points much more than the final ranking. It’s you…,the know nothing child from the time in question…forever arguing shit you’re clueless about.

I forgot more about Reggie miller’s game than you will ever know. You’re a googling know nothing know it all casual fan in discussions you don’t belong arguing he’s better than the person you say is against me would say himself. Reggie’s biggest fan here has several times pointed out that you and people like you are the ones making Reggie hated because you overrate him and he faces backlash.

He and I agree on virtually every end of the day ranking it seems….including Pippen vs Reggie….you are the odd one out. Probably because you are the one talking out your ass about a subject you have no knowledge of.

[Kblaze8855]

My point is I agree with you lol. What I am specifically saying is that he had that great one on one face up move that was effective that he used to blow past defenders. At his peak he was shooting more free throws than Olajuwon, Drexler and Dominique because that quick first step is the move he used to draw fouls. He was almost at eight freethrows per game which is unheard of for a shooter.

Anybody who has watched him knows he was a weak ballhandler but he knows his limitations and knows how to delegate roles and make plays for his teams in other ways. He was great at reading double teams and giving post entry passes to set up teammates while spacing the floor for them. The most important thing is he was willing to do all these to a fault wherein he gets criticized for being too unselfish when his only goal is to play the right way.

Of course he had other ways to score. You may remember I made this video and called it

”How Reggie Miller scored 25k points with no hops or handles”




https://youtu.be/GXFF-TXxoSw




Specifically to point out how he did it.

He was crafty. He’s also among the worst ball handling good guards in 3 decades. He’s also on the very low end of the list far as playmaking ability….largely because of his handles.

If it made him bad at basketball we wouldn’t remember his name. Obviously it didn’t. It does make him bad at those skills. He had a tremendous deficit in guard skills relative to other good guards….which he made up for in other ways. Doesn’t make telling the truth about it out of line. He had a limited offensive skill set. Nobody would have argued that at the time and the only ones arguing it now….don’t remember it.

[Reggie43]

Of course he had other ways to score. You may remember I made this video and called it

”How Reggie Miller scored 25k points with no hops or handles”




https://youtu.be/GXFF-TXxoSw




Specifically to point out how he did it.

He was crafty. He’s also among the worst ball handling good guards in 3 decades. He’s also on the very low end of the list far as playmaking ability….largely because of his handles.

If it made him bad at basketball we wouldn’t remember his name. Obviously it didn’t. It does make him bad at those skills. He had a tremendous deficit in guard skills relative to other good guards….which he made up for in other ways. Doesn’t make telling the truth about it out of line. He had a limited offensive skill set. Nobody would have argued that at the time and the only ones arguing it now….don’t remember it.

Yes he had limited guard skills but it doesnt mean he was less effective with the ones that he had. What he lacked in some areas he made up for it by being elite and even Goat level in others like moving without the ball.

In fact he was so good at it that his peers abandoned their ball dominating ways and copied his style of play. Iverson was most succesfull when he played off ball and switched to sg as influenced by Millers former coach. Rip Hamilton virtually copied what Miller was all about besides 3 point shooting and helped his team win a ring, Ray Allen did the same in the second half of his career and also helped his team win it all, he credits Miller even to this day and we all know who Steph Curry's favorite player was. There was even a recent article on how Kobe copied Millers moves when they played together in the summer.

Limited is a big word but what people dont realize is that he had another whole bag of tricks that even goat level guards didnt have. There are too many ways to play this game which means an unorthodoxed guard like Miller could be more effective than his more skilled counterparts

[3ba11]

It’s weird you say that I said such and such as if I’m not giving you word for word other people saying it. His coach tells you he can’t dribble and you talk about me saying it. Reggie having limited guard skills isn’t my opinion. It was the opinion of everyone who watched games for 20 years. Talking about clips of him taking people off the dribble like I need them shown to me….

Im the guy with clips of everything. I could show you clips of 3 dozen people without handles beating guys off the dribble. Centers have nasty faceup crossovers from time to time. I can clip you to death to make anyone look like anything.

I could make a 40 minute video of him passing it ahead when pressured or picking up his dribble in the half court vs a half assed reach in.

Reggie played a long time and scored a lot. Of course there are clips of him doing things. I made a lot. Some are in my stash:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImmaculateDistinctFerret-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PlayfulYawningDalmatian-size_restricted.gif







just something I had for a laugh in some dumb 3ball topic. I could make a Muggsy post D compilation showing him holding his own in the post vs Jordan, Pippen, Drazen and others.

Lets not play the clip game. I am the clip game. I know better than anyone it’s all just for a laugh and can make anyone look like anything. Tell me I don’t have a whole game of Ben Wallace attacking and making jumpers. Tell me I don’t so I can make this point.

The guy wasn’t bursting with guard skills. You feel free to list the good guards with worse handles to come into the league the last 35 years. As the article I posted suggested..,.you can give Starks the ball to run the offense. Reggie is a spectator. Reggie can’t consistently run a pick and roll. His handles are like a big small forward would have back then. Point A to point B handles. Don’t ask him to protect the ball in traffic or pass off the dribble.

Just wasn’t in his bag regularly.

Doesnt mean he can’t be hard to defend when doing so means running into Dale Davis 44 times a game. I don’t want run into Dale Davis all night either.

Doesn’t mean the frustrating night is gonna result in much. I’m sure it’s physically easier to get blown by for 44 than to get beat up for Reggie to score 22. Doesn’t mean he’s actually accomplishing more. Reggie was not noteworthy in anything but moving off the ball and shooting.


Good things to be good at obviously….but we don’t need to pretend teams were worried about his contribution in any other area of the game. He’s not gonna pick you apart with his playmaking and you aren’t generally trying to limit his offense wrecking defense either. He’s not gonna rebound or keep rebounding wings from doing so. He could fight with you a bit and had a few clever charges drawn.

Hes somewhere between terrible and “Ok….not bad. I see you trying.” in every aspect of the game other than those I credited him with. It being hard to deal with what he could do well doesn’t man he did a lot of things well.


Kblaze you were not a good basketball player. You had zero skills and could barely put the ball in the basket

Stop acting like you know about pure scoring or what it is - Reggie Miller was a pure scorer and scored in many more ways than Steph Curry.

You just don't know what you're talking about

Miller > Pippen based on..... everything... Domination, stats, impact, winning - everything - his presence even yielded better defensive teams

[ShawkFactory]

Kblaze you were not a good basketball player. You had zero skills and could barely put the ball in the basket

Stop acting like you know about pure scoring or what it is - Reggie Miller was a pure scorer and scored in many more ways than Steph Curry.

You just don't know what you're talking about

Miller > Pippen based on..... everything... Domination, stats, impact, winning - everything - his presence even yielded better defensive teams

Look at you thinking being a better player (lulz) means you’re smarter. Cute :lol

Name 5 successful coaches in any sport who are HOF players without googling. Bet you can’t do it.

You know more when you have to struggle through it, rather than just being so good that you don’t even have to think. No that you’re that..

[3ba11]

Look at you thinking being a better player (lulz) means you’re smarter. Cute :lol

Name 5 successful coaches in any sport who are HOF players without googling. Bet you can’t do it.

You know more when you have to struggle through it, rather than just being so good that you don’t even have to think. No that you’re that..


Kblaze once made a comment that in a hypothetical scenario, he might "hold" a high school version of Nerlens Noel to 30-50 or something like that.... it wasn't a big deal that he said this, but the way he said it revealed the level he was on.

So it's hard for me to hear Kblaze pretend to be an expert on Miller, yet say he was just a Kyle Korver 3-and-D bum or something.. Miller was a pure scorer and scored a wide variety of 2-point shots on every possession, aka leaners, bankers, up and unders, aka basketball, while today's spaced-out format only requires 2 shot types on most possessions (3's and in-stride layups, aka not really basketball)

To gauge Miller's caliber, we can use Pippen's best big series as a benchmark - Pippen averaged 22.5 on 51% against the 93' Knicks, while Miller had 31.5 on 53%... This isn't just 1 series - there's been 5 times that they played the same playoff opponent and Miller is 5-0 in outplaying Pippen significantly.. In the 95' Playoffs, the Bulls lost to the Magic despite having MJ because Pip wet the bed with 19 on 40%, while Miller nearly won without MJ by averaging 26 on 53%

Miller's dominant caliber and elite 1st option numbers destroy the slasher/defender caliber of Pippen's efficiency and production..

[ShawkFactory]

Kblaze once made a comment that in a hypothetical scenario, he might "hold" a high school version of Nerlens Noel to 30-50 or something like that.... it wasn't a big deal that he said this, but the way he said it revealed the level he was on.

So it's hard for me to hear Kblaze pretend to be an expert on Miller, yet say he was just a Kyle Korver 3-and-D bum or something.. Miller was a pure scorer and scored a wide variety of 2-point shots on every possession, aka leaners, bankers, up and unders, aka basketball, while today's spaced-out format only requires 2 shot types on most possessions (3's and in-stride layups, aka not really basketball)

To gauge Miller's caliber, we can use Pippen's best big series as a benchmark - Pippen averaged 22.5 on 51% against the 93' Knicks, while Miller had 31.5 on 53%... This isn't just 1 series - there's been 5 times that they played the same playoff opponent and Miller is 5-0 in outplaying Pippen significantly.. In the 95' Playoffs, the Bulls lost to the Magic despite having MJ because Pip wet the bed with 19 on 40%, while Miller nearly won without MJ by averaging 26 on 53%

Miller's dominant caliber and elite 1st option numbers destroy the slasher/defender caliber of Pippen's efficiency and production..

Someone says something and you hear something completely different. You're like a woman

If your buddy says he doesn't want Chipotle today do you think he's insinuating that you're fat?

[Phoenix]

Someone says something and you hear something completely different. You're like a woman



:oldlol: