Why did Kobe perform so poorly in the Finals?

[ELITEpower23]

Game High Scoring

Regular Season: 81
Playoffs: 50
Finals: 40

Why the sudden drop off? He has one 40-point Finals game in his entire career.

[3ba11]

era and triangle

Lebron wasn't getting any 40-point Finals games until 2015 when the game became a spaced-out, free-for-all for ballhandlers.

that's when everyone's stats went up.

And Kobe played in the triangle, which he broke less and less as the rounds progressed..

Regardless, Kobe won 2 chips of the absolute highest quality - i.e. he led his team in playoff/Finals scoring by 10 ppg margin (carry-job) and also led in assists - no super-teams, no 1b's - that's the highest quality ring possible

[coastalmarker99]

era and triangle

Lebron wasn't getting any 40-point Finals games until 2015 when the game became a spaced-out, free-for-all for ballhandlers.

that's when everyone's stats went up.

And Kobe played in the triangle, which he broke less and less as the rounds progressed..

Regardless, Kobe won 2 chips of the absolute highest quality - i.e. he led his team in playoff/Finals scoring by 10 ppg margin (carry-job) and also led in assists - no super-teams, no 1b's - that's the highest quality ring possible

Kobe

Regular Season
25.0 PPG / 5.2 RPG / 4.7 APG / 0.5 BPG / 1.4 SPG / 44.7% FG

Playoffs
25.6 PPG / 5.1 RPG / 4.7 APG / 0.7 BPG / 1.4 SPG / 44.8% FG



Game 7s
22.2 PPG / 8.0 RPG / 5.0 APG / 1.3 BPG / 1.0 SPG / 38.9% FG

Elimination Games
22.3 PPG / 5.8 RPG / 3.5 APG / 1.3 BPG / 1.3 SPG / 44.0% FG

Finals
25.3 PPG / 5.7 RPG / 5.1 APG / 0.9 BPG / 1.8 SPG / 41.2% FG





Lebron

Regular Season
27.0 PPG / 7.4 RPG / 7.4 APG / 0.7 BPG / 1.6 SPG / 50.4% FG

Playoffs
28.7 PPG / 9.0 RPG / 7.2 APG / 0.9 BPG / 1.7 SPG / 49.5% FG


Game 7s
34.87 PPG / 9.87 RPG / 5.6 APG / 0.8 BPG / 1.7 SPG / 48.7% FG


Elimination Games
33.48 PPG / 10.76 RPG / 7.4 APG / 1.0 BPG / 1.6 SPG / 48.8% FG

Finals
28.2 PPG / 10.0 RPG / 7.7 APG / 0.8 BPG / 1.7 SPG / 47.65% FG

[coastalmarker99]

era and triangle

Lebron wasn't getting any 40-point Finals games until 2015 when the game became a spaced-out, free-for-all for ballhandlers.

that's when everyone's stats went up.

And Kobe played in the triangle, which he broke less and less as the rounds progressed..

Regardless, Kobe won 2 chips of the absolute highest quality - i.e. he led his team in playoff/Finals scoring by 10 ppg margin (carry-job) and also led in assists - no super-teams, no 1b's - that's the highest quality ring possible

Here is Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%| 41 TS%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%

[3ba11]

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%





^^^ getting those stats in the triangle and winning with the triangle period is probably the best goat argument there is..

You've convinced me that Kobe is firmly at #2 all-time and behind the only guy that won more in the triangle, MJ

You gotta understand that MJ invented the footwork needed to produce a lot in the triangle, which allowed the triangle to win after losing for 60 years and no one able to win with it.. The triangle has zero rings without MJ or his clone (kobe).

And again, the 09' and 10' rings had the highest quality - 10 ppg more than sidekick (carry-job) and still leading in assists - no super-teams or 1b's - aka the best quality rings possible

[ELITEpower23]

Kobe

Regular Season
25.0 PPG / 5.2 RPG / 4.7 APG / 0.5 BPG / 1.4 SPG / 44.7% FG

Playoffs
25.6 PPG / 5.1 RPG / 4.7 APG / 0.7 BPG / 1.4 SPG / 44.8% FG



Game 7s
22.2 PPG / 8.0 RPG / 5.0 APG / 1.3 BPG / 1.0 SPG / 38.9% FG

Elimination Games
22.3 PPG / 5.8 RPG / 3.5 APG / 1.3 BPG / 1.3 SPG / 44.0% FG

Finals
25.3 PPG / 5.7 RPG / 5.1 APG / 0.9 BPG / 1.8 SPG / 41.2% FG





Lebron

Regular Season
27.0 PPG / 7.4 RPG / 7.4 APG / 0.7 BPG / 1.6 SPG / 50.4% FG

Playoffs
28.7 PPG / 9.0 RPG / 7.2 APG / 0.9 BPG / 1.7 SPG / 49.5% FG


Game 7s
34.87 PPG / 9.87 RPG / 5.6 APG / 0.8 BPG / 1.7 SPG / 48.7% FG


Elimination Games
33.48 PPG / 10.76 RPG / 7.4 APG / 1.0 BPG / 1.6 SPG / 48.8% FG

Finals
28.2 PPG / 10.0 RPG / 7.7 APG / 0.8 BPG / 1.7 SPG / 47.65% FG

WOW.

Kobe is borderline top 15 at this point. He's barely hanging in there.

[RRR3]

LeBron decimated Kobe head to head (16-6) and 3ball has no answer to it

[3ba11]

LeBron decimated Kobe head to head (16-6) and 3ball has no answer to it


That was regular season

In the Finals, Kobe would be the odds-on-favorite, based on their historical records at that level of basketball..

At that level of basketball, Kobe's sophisticated skills are more effective than Lebron's simpleton ball-dominance that prevents the best strategy (ball movement).

unfortunately, Lebron missed the much-anticipated Finals matchup in 2009 and 2010 because he lost as the favorite to Dwight Howard

[RRR3]

That was regular season

In the Finals, Kobe would be the odds-on-favorite, based on their historical records at that level of basketball..

At that level of basketball, Kobe's more sophisticated game is more effective than Lebron's lack of capacity for the best strategy (ball movement).
16-6. LeBron circled his calendar whenever he was playing the Lakers as he knew it was an easy dub. Tell us where it hurts that LeBron is now by consensus considered better than your hero Kobe.

[3ba11]

16-6. LeBron circled his calendar whenever he was playing the Lakers as he knew it was an easy dub. Tell us where it hurts that LeBron is now by consensus considered better than your hero Kobe.


Kobe wins more on the championship level.. Lebron wins more when no one is gameplanning in the regular season

[ELITEpower23]

Kobe wins more on the championship level.. Lebron wins more when no one is gameplanning in the regular season

Kobe has one 40-point Finals game, he didn't do shit on the championship level :oldlol: Shaq says hi

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe wins more on the championship level.. Lebron wins more when no one is gameplanning in the regular season

4 FMVP's > 2 FMVP's

4 MVP's > 1 MVP

10 finals > 7 finals

174 playoff wins > 135 playoff wins

[3ba11]

10 finals > 7 finals





Finals appearances are conference-dependant affairs - only winning them matters

Anyone will make a bunch of Finals if they form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were winning - ultimately, Lebron only beat the West 4 times, so he'd have 4 Finals appearances if he was in the West for his whole career (7 for Kobe).

That's why winning the Finals matters - who cares if you can dominate a weak conference if you can't dominate the LEAGUE

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The 'era and triangle' didnt stop Kobe from balling out in the regular-season. And more or less playing @ that level in the playoffs.

Kobe couldn't replicate that on the big stage. Own it, 3ball. That excuse doesn't work with Mike so quit using it here.

[3ba11]

The 'era and triangle' didnt stop Kobe from balling out in the regular-season. And more or less playing at that level in the playoffs.

Kobe couldn't replicate that on the big stage. That excuse doesn't work with Mike so stop making it here.


Kobe couldn't break the triangle as much as the rounds wore on.. That reduced his stats in the Finals

And yes, MJ didn't have to tone it down in the Finals, but MJ is better... Ultimately, MJ and Kobe 1 and 2 in the goat rankings because they won with the triangle and no one else could before or since.. They invented the footwork needed to produce a lot in that offense... that's goat.. averaging 30 in the triangle is goat..

Imagine telling Lebron to average 30 without dominating the ball (in the triangle) - he lacks the skills to do that and would demand a coaching or team change..

[coastalmarker99]

Finals appearances are conference-dependant affairs - only winning them matters

Anyone will make a bunch of Finals if they form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were winning - ultimately, Lebron only beat the West 4 times, so he'd have 4 Finals appearances if he was in the West for his whole career (7 for Kobe).

That's why winning the Finals matters - who cares if you can dominate a weak conference if you can't dominate the LEAGUE



Jordan couldn't handle going to more than 3 finals in a row.


The fact that Lebron made eight straight finals in the modern era is unbelievable.



Showtime couldn't do it.


Bird's Celtics couldn't do it.


Jordan Bulls couldn't do it.

The 2000 Spurs couldn't do it.

The 2000 Lakers couldn't do it.



The Warriors collapsed after making it to 5 straight finals.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe couldn't break the triangle as much as the rounds wore on.. That reduced his stats in the Finals

And yes, MJ didn't have to tone it down in the Finals, but MJ is better... Ultimately, MJ and Kobe 1 and 2 in the goat rankings because they won with the triangle and no one else could before or since.. They invented the footwork needed to produce a lot in that offense.

Winning 2 alpha rings in the 'triangle' doesnt make you a GOAT candidate.

Shaq has three while outproducing Kobe during their 3-peat. Yet you completely ignore him. :lol

[3ba11]

Jordan couldn't handle going to more than 3 finals in a row.


The fact that Lebron made eight straight finals in the modern era is GOD tier.


Jordan could've handled many more Finals runs if he LOST - he would never take his ball and go home if he lost to Barkley in 93' - but it was never a consideration because he won with goat dominance, which allowed him the luxury to retire..

If he hadn't won, then he would've trudged forward despite being mentally tired, just like 11' Kobe or 14' Wade trudged forward after their failed 3-peats..

3-peats are hard because teammates are tired and playing like shit (93' pippen had the worst advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick), so it takes goat stats from the top dog to 3-peat (41 ppg)... Wade and Kobe weren't capable of this, so they had to trudge forward, while got to take a break...

But people don't realize that the break hurt him and atrophied some of his basketball physiology in favor of developing baseball movements.

[coastalmarker99]

Finals appearances are conference-dependant affairs - only winning them matters

Anyone will make a bunch of Finals if they form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were winning - ultimately, Lebron only beat the West 4 times, so he'd have 4 Finals appearances if he was in the West for his whole career (7 for Kobe).

That's why winning the Finals matters - who cares if you can dominate a weak conference if you can't dominate the LEAGUE


Lebron made it to eight straight finals.


With Bosh being hurt in 2012

Wade being hurt in 2013

Wade being a shell of himself in 2014

Kyrie and Love both being injured in 2015.

And with a brand new team in 2018.



The fact that Lebron kept going back for more and more after coming up short in some of those finals is incredible.



Plus the fact of Lebron not getting mentally tired after making it to so many finals in a row is also amazing.

[AirBonner]

Coastalmarker99 putting on a clinic in here

[coastalmarker99]

I don't think people such as 3ball understand how hard it is for teams to come right back to the Super Bowl or NBA finals after losing.



The fact that the 1990's Bills had the mental strength to make to 4 super bowls in a row despite losing the first three is an amazing achievement of resilience.


How many teams have we seen lose in the NBA finals and Superbowl and never come back to the big dance ever again?



Look at the Thunder in 2012 people thought at the time that they would be in countless NBA finals for at least the next decade.



And yet they have never made it back to the finals after 2012.

[3ba11]

Lebron made it to eight straight finals.





Do you understand that Iverson, Kidd and Dwight won the conference with a 1-star team?

So why would anyone care that another guy came along and formed super-teams to manufacture a streak?

And he only won 3 of those 8 Finals, so he would't have made the Finals in the West most of those years - who cares about winning a conference if you can't win the LEAGUE






With Bosh being hurt in 2012

Wade being hurt in 2013

Wade being a shell of himself in 2014

Kyrie and Love both being injured in 2015.

And with a brand new team in 2018.


Lebron had 2 star teammates, so who cares how one of them plays.

Otoh, Jordan made the Finals with only 1 star teammate, so we'd need to give him a 2nd star teammate to accurately compare to Lebron's super-teams..

And don't complain about teammates being hurt because everyone has that - Pippen was banged up and had the worst advanced stats of any winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (worst than 13' and 14' Wade), and averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs..

Show me where Lebron won a Finals with his sidekick getting 19 on 42% (pippen's career average), or 15.7 on 40% (96' and 98' Finals)

[coastalmarker99]

3ball


Only one of Jordan's finals opponents made it to back to back finals and that was the Jazz in 1997 and 1998.



Now compare that to Lebron who was facing the Warriors for four straight years in the finals and the Spurs in two straight years.



Most of Jordan's finals opponents were not all-time great teams and that's why they never made it back to the NBA finals after losing to the Bulls in the finals.

[Nowitness]

Do you understand that Iverson, Kidd and Dwight won the conference with a 1-star team?

So why would anyone care that another guy came along and formed super-teams to manufacture a streak?

And he only won 3 of those 8 Finals, so he would't have made the Finals in the West most of those years - who cares about winning a conference if you can't win the LEAGUE






Lebron had 2 star teammates, so who cares how one of them plays.

Otoh, Jordan made the Finals with only 1 star teammate, so we'd need to give him a 2nd star teammate to accurately compare to Lebron's super-teams..

And don't complain about teammates being hurt because everyone has that - Pippen was banged up and had the worst advanced stats of any winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (worst than 13' and 14' Wade), and averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs..

Show me where Lebron won a Finals with his sidekick getting 19 on 42% (pippen's career average), or 15.7 on 40% (96' and 98' Finals)

In the 2013 playoffs, Wade was 16/4/4 on 45% shooting, Bosh was 12/7. LBJ carried God awful players.

How many times did Kobe win without an All-NBA big man? Zero, truly embarrassing, without an All-NBA big man Kobe didn’t even make it out of the first round

[3ba11]

In the 2013 playoffs, Wade was 16/4/4 on 45% shooting, Bosh was 12/7. LBJ had 2 star teammates (a luxury that no one else had), so he won a God-awful conference that Dwight was winning with no star teammates.





Fixed

Btw, the worst sidekick stats that Lebron ever won with were 20/5/5 on 48% by Wade in the 2013 Finals.. Otoh, Pippen's career Finals average is 19.0 on 42%, including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 40%.






How many times did Kobe win without an All-NBA big man? Zero, truly embarrassing, without an All-NBA big man Kobe didn’t even make it out of the first round





Kobe won with just 1 other star, while averaging 10+ more than that star (carry-job), while Lebron never averaged more than 5 above his sidekick in th Finals (shared load with 1b's)... Kobe won with true 2nd options that averaged far less, while Lebron won with 1b's that nearly matched his scoring.

[RRR3]

Kobe wins more on the championship level.. Lebron wins more when no one is gameplanning in the regular season
No he doesn’t. 2002 ring was confirmed as rigged so it doesn’t count. So they both have 4 but Kobe averaged 15.6 PPG on 41 TS% in the 2000 finals so his 4 aren’t worth the same. Cope.

[RRR3]

Kobe couldn't break the triangle as much as the rounds wore on.. That reduced his stats in the Finals

And yes, MJ didn't have to tone it down in the Finals, but MJ is better... Ultimately, MJ and Kobe 1 and 2 in the goat rankings because they won with the triangle and no one else could before or since.. They invented the footwork needed to produce a lot in that offense... that's goat.. averaging 30 in the triangle is goat..

Imagine telling Lebron to average 30 without dominating the ball (in the triangle) - he lacks the skills to do that and would demand a coaching or team change..
LeBron averaged 30 without dominating the ball in the 2012 playoffs you retard.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobeball shotjacking like a mofo. :lol Lot of attempted posts, but not enough points made

[Axe]

4 FMVP's > 2 FMVP's

4 MVP's > 1 MVP

10 finals > 7 finals

174 playoff wins > 135 playoff wins
Interestingly, both also have more finals trips and finals mvp than wilt.

[3ba11]

LeBron averaged 30 without dominating the ball in the 2012 playoffs you retard.


He still dominated the ball a lot, which is why this bum was actually down 2-3 and faced elimination against the 80-year old Celtics that year... The Heat had prime Wade/Bosh/Lebron, yet they barely won the title because Lebron-ball underachieves it's talent..

Seriously, how THE F*CK was he down 2-3 to that Celtic team?... he was choking again but I guess chokers can't choke EVERY time... :rolleyes:

[3ba11]

.
"i will NOT choke again... i will NOT choke again... i will NOT choke again... i will NOT choke again.... i will NOT choke again..."


https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/EiZeC0vWsAQniFU.jpg

[ELITEpower23]

Coastalmarker99 putting on a clinic in here

+1

Happy to see him snatching 3ball's wig on the regular :oldlol:


LeBron > Kobe

[HoopsNY]

The 'era and triangle' didnt stop Kobe from balling out in the regular-season. And more or less playing @ that level in the playoffs.

Kobe couldn't replicate that on the big stage. Own it, 3ball. That excuse doesn't work with Mike so quit using it here.

He makes a valid point in terms of LeBron's output in the finals. LeBron's highest scoring game prior to 2015 was 37 in 5 finals appearances (spanning 27 games). Other than that, it's just excuses for Kobe.

[coastalmarker99]

Finals appearances are conference-dependant affairs - only winning them matters

Anyone will make a bunch of Finals if they form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were winning - ultimately, Lebron only beat the West 4 times, so he'd have 4 Finals appearances if he was in the West for his whole career (7 for Kobe).

That's why winning the Finals matters - who cares if you can dominate a weak conference if you can't dominate the LEAGUE

Lebron is 4-6 in the finals because

- in 2007, he made the finals at 22 with a trash roster while Jordan was getting swept in the first round at the same age

- in 2014, Wade, Lebron's second option, averaged the same amount of points as the Spurs 4th option on worse efficiency.

- in 2015, he lost two starters in the finals and faced a 67 win team with Mozgov and Dellavdova starting

- in 2018, he made it to the finals with Jeff Green as his second-best teammate and faced the KD Warriors.

Jordan would have lost as well in every one of these scenarios.. He likely doesn't even make the finals in 2007 and 2018.

[HoopsNY]

Lebron is 4-6 in the finals because

- in 2007, he made the finals at 22 with a trash roster while Jordan was getting swept in the first round at the same age

- in 2014, Wade, Lebron's second option, averaged the same amount of points as the Spurs 4th option on worse efficiency.

- in 2015, he lost two starters in the finals and faced a 67 win team with Mozgov and Dellavdova starting

- in 2018, he made it to the finals with Jeff Green as his second-best teammate and faced the KD Warriors.

Jordan would have lost as well in every one of these scenarios.. He likely doesn't even make the finals in 2007 and 2018.

Jordan would likely lose all of those finals, but he absolutely makes it to the finals in 2007 and 2018.

[3ba11]

Lebron is 4-6 in the finals because

- in 2007, he made the finals at 22 with a trash roster while Jordan was getting swept in the first round at the same age

- in 2014, Wade, Lebron's second option, averaged the same amount of points as the Spurs 4th option on worse efficiency.

- in 2015, he lost two starters in the finals and faced a 67 win team with Mozgov and Dellavdova starting

- in 2018, he made it to the finals with Jeff Green as his second-best teammate and faced the KD Warriors.

Jordan would have lost as well in every one of these scenarios.. He likely doesn't even make the finals in 2007 and 2018.


Ok, now let's walk around to the other side and get a different view of those years:


2007 - 22 on 35% is the worst performance of all-time by a 1st option in the Finals.. It's also 1 of 2 times in history that a 1st option shot 35% in ANY series - both by Lebron (07' Finals and 08' ECSF).. But despite Lebron's 22 on 35%, every game was close, so 32 on 50% sweeps those Spurs, just like Kobe in 08'.

2014 - Bosh couldn't step up because Lebron had reduced him to a spot-up role.. Ultimately, the Heat couldn't dominate the Spurs like they were supposed to ("not 6, not 7") because Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination yields weak teammate fits/chemistry and weak team strategy (less ball movement).. Furthermore, teammates are always playing like dogshit on the back leg of a 3-peat, so Lebron needed to have the best stats to win - the Spurs won by a 13 point margin and Lebron averaged 28, which means that he needed 41 ppg to 3-peat, just like MJ in 93'... This extra aggressiveness would've commanded doubles and freed up teammates, but Lebron amazingly took only 17 shots per game.. In addition to Lebron's passivity - ball-domination doesn't wear down defenses, so opponents have more capacity for offense - see the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals or 17' Finals to see teams get hot against ball-domination... Ball-movement is much more effective at wearing down a defense and winning the battle of attrition.. The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition..

2015 - Lebron played exactly like Westbrook on offense and Kukoc on defense, but was praised for it because the media is extremely dumb and beta.. He took 33 shots and held the ball for a record 12 minutes per game, yet only averaged 35 points.. If he shot 50% and didn't let Iggy double his normal scoring average, the Cavs win easily.

(ultimately, Lebron can't win when he's required to score high amounts (35+) because the extra ball-dominance turns teammates into spot-up shooters more than normal (bad brand).. Otoh, Jordan's high scoring was partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role - so MJ won with high scoring all the time.. In addition to Lebron's high scoring being too ball-dominant, Lebron can't handle the extra jumpshooting required of high volume loads, so his efficiency suffers at carry-job volume and requires a 1b to win (equal-scoring partner) - Lebron literally CAN'T carry the scoring load (can't carry teams)).


2017 - Lebron had the "Curry-killer", yet KD destroyed him by near-record amount - only a 40-point bomb by Kyrie in Game 3 saved Lebron from another Finals sweep - certainly, great players like Kyrie can always win a game on their own.. Lebron is the only player in history that lost with a sidekick averaging 29 ppg because Lebron's ball-dominance imposes a "your-turn-my-turn" approach (weak brand/strategy) that can't keep up with the zippy ball movement of his Finals opponents..

[outofstomach]

Ok, now let's walk around to the other side and get a different view of those years:


2007 - 22 on 35% is the worst performance of all-time by a 1st option in the Finals.. It's also 1 of 2 times in history that a 1st option shot 35% in ANY series - both by Lebron (07' Finals and 08' ECSF).. But despite Lebron's 22 on 35%, every game was close, so 32 on 50% sweeps those Spurs, just like Kobe in 08'.

2014 - Bosh couldn't step up because Lebron had reduced him to a spot-up role.. Ultimately, the Heat couldn't dominate the Spurs like they were supposed to ("not 6, not 7") because Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination yields weak teammate fits/chemistry and weak team strategy (less ball movement).. Furthermore, teammates are always playing like dogshit on the back leg of a 3-peat, so Lebron needed to have the best stats to win - the Spurs won by a 13 point margin and Lebron averaged 28, which means that he needed 41 ppg to 3-peat, just like MJ in 93'... This extra aggressiveness would've commanded doubles and freed up teammates, but Lebron amazingly took only 17 shots per game.. In addition to Lebron's passivity - ball-domination doesn't wear down defenses, so opponents have more capacity for offense - see the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals or 17' Finals to see teams get hot against ball-domination... Ball-movement is much more effective at wearing down a defense and winning the battle of attrition.. The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition..

2015 - Lebron played exactly like Westbrook on offense and Kukoc on defense, but was praised for it because the media is extremely dumb and beta.. He took 33 shots and held the ball for a record 12 minutes per game, yet only averaged 35 points.. If he shot 50% and didn't let Iggy double his normal scoring average, the Cavs win easily.

(ultimately, Lebron can't win when he's required to score high amounts (35+) because the extra ball-dominance turns teammates into spot-up shooters more than normal (bad brand).. Otoh, Jordan's high scoring was partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role - so MJ won with high scoring all the time.. In addition to Lebron's high scoring being too ball-dominant, Lebron can't handle the extra jumpshooting required of high volume loads, so his efficiency suffers at carry-job volume and requires a 1b to win (equal-scoring partner) - Lebron literally CAN'T carry the scoring load (can't carry teams)).


2017 - Lebron had the "Curry-killer", yet KD destroyed him by near-record amount - only a 40-point bomb by Kyrie in Game 3 saved Lebron from another Finals sweep - certainly, great players like Kyrie can always win a game on their own.. Lebron is the only player in history that lost with a sidekick averaging 29 ppg because Lebron's ball-dominance imposes a "your-turn-my-turn" approach (weak brand/strategy) that can't keep up with the zippy ball movement of his Finals opponents..
i concur with everything besides ‘17, that team was pretty much insurmountable (although Harden took them to 7 the very next year, but that’d be another thread…)

[3ba11]

i concur with everything besides ‘17, that team was pretty much insurmountable (although Harden took them to 7 the very next year, but that’d be another thread…)


Actually I agree with you but only because KD was goat-level - that was peak KD and he was superior to Lebron at that time - he made the Warriors unbeatable, but his cast (Curry/Klay + championship vets) wasn't better than Lebron's in my eyes (Kyrie/Love + championship vets)

[Axe]

Actually I agree with you but only because KD was goat-level - that was peak KD and he was superior to Lebron at that time - he made the Warriors unbeatable, but his cast (Curry/Klay + championship vets) wasn't better than Lebron's in my eyes (Kyrie/Love + championship vets)
:roll:

Do you live somewhere in the moon?

[3ba11]

:roll:

Do you live somewhere in the moon?


I'm one of the many people that think Kyrie > Curry

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kyrie+curry+mike+james


He already proved it in the 2016 Finals, which was the biggest series of Curry's career.

[Manny98]

5-2 > 4-6

[Phoenix]

And again, the 09' and 10' rings had the highest quality - 10 ppg more than sidekick (carry-job) and still leading in assists - no super-teams or 1b's - aka the best quality rings possible

How would you rank MJ if he was scoring, say, 28ppg, during the title runs and Scottie( or another player) was dropping like 25ppg?

[RRR3]

He still dominated the ball a lot, which is why this bum was actually down 2-3 and faced elimination against the 80-year old Celtics that year... The Heat had prime Wade/Bosh/Lebron, yet they barely won the title because Lebron-ball underachieves it's talent..

Seriously, how THE F*CK was he down 2-3 to that Celtic team?... he was choking again but I guess chokers can't choke EVERY time... :rolleyes:
You don’t get to whine about ball domination when your favorite player is Kobe, especially when we’re discussing 2012 LeBron who played like a power forward a lot of the time. He played off ball and posted up a lot back then you wouldn’t know though because you’re a liar who didn’t watch.

[RRR3]

He makes a valid point in terms of LeBron's output in the finals. LeBron's highest scoring game prior to 2015 was 37 in 5 finals appearances (spanning 27 games). Other than that, it's just excuses for Kobe.
Kobe didn’t score 40 until his 6th finals.

[8Ball]

3ball


Only one of Jordan's finals opponents made it to back to back finals and that was the Jazz in 1997 and 1998.



Now compare that to Lebron who was facing the Warriors for four straight years in the finals and the Spurs in two straight years.



Most of Jordan's finals opponents were not all-time great teams and that's why they never made it back to the NBA finals after losing to the Bulls in the finals.

Coastalmarker doing some curb stomping in here.

[ELITEpower23]

Lebron is 4-6 in the finals because

- in 2007, he made the finals at 22 with a trash roster while Jordan was getting swept in the first round at the same age

- in 2014, Wade, Lebron's second option, averaged the same amount of points as the Spurs 4th option on worse efficiency.

- in 2015, he lost two starters in the finals and faced a 67 win team with Mozgov and Dellavdova starting

- in 2018, he made it to the finals with Jeff Green as his second-best teammate and faced the KD Warriors.

Jordan would have lost as well in every one of these scenarios.. He likely doesn't even make the finals in 2007 and 2018.

Wrap this up fellas we're done :pimp:

[Ne 1]

In general, Kobe was a great playoff performer, although not as good in the Finals, but if you break down his Finals, he wasn't been bad either.

[Ne 1]

Here's my breakdown of them:

2000 vs Pacers- He did have a subpar series in general, though a lot of that can be attributed to the injury in Game 2 which left him hobbled the rest of the series. Jalen Rose admittedly, intentionally injured him. He twisted his ankle early in the 1st quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in game 3, but returned the next game. He put the team on his back and carried them to victory after Shaq fouled out in the 4th quarter, he hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime. So considering he came up with a legendary clutch performance in game 4 and also put up 26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 turn over, playing excellent defense in the clinching game so it's not a big deal in terms of his legacy.

His defense on Mark Jackson was excellent throughout that series.

Here's a Sports Illustrated segment after Game 1:


Kobe Bryant's ball pressure on Pacers point guard Mark Jackson was tremendous. It didn't cause turnovers, but it kept Indiana from getting into its half court offense quickly, and thus disrupted the timing. Kobe also did a good job chasing Miller when assigned to him.
2001 vs Sixers- He struggled in the Game 1 loss with his shot being off, but had a solid all around series, particularly after game 1 (27/9/6 through the 4 wins), and the Lakers won in 5 with a back door sweep. Definitely not a bad series, particularly against a defensive powerhouse like Larry Brown's 2001 Sixers. He contributed on both ends of the court, and had a few triple double type games. 31/8/6/2/2 in Game 2 and also, in Game 3, he had a memorable streak, I think it was in the 3rd quarter, when he got hot and sank like 6 or 7 baskets without a miss, most from about 18 feet, making the traditionally tough Philly fans go "oooh".

2002- Excellent series, aside from Kareem's series in 1980, it may have been the best by a player who didn't win Finals MVP in a winning effort, if not, it's certainly in the discussion. And of course the Lakers swept the series. The Nets were also an excellent defensive team (Ranked #1). He sank the game clinching basket in Game 3 and put up 35/11/2/4 61 FG% to give the Lakers a commanding 3-0 series lead.

2004- Yeah, horrible series for him. A legit excuse though is that ‘04 Pistons team was perhaps the greatest defensive team in history. To his credit, he played good defense this series and saved the Lakers from getting swept in game 2 with 33/7/4/3 and a clutch bucket.

2008- Not nearly as bad as people made it out to be. I never held this series against him. First of all, nobody on the Lakers played well enough to prevent that legendary Celtics defense from swarming him. Gasol reverted to Gasoft on both ends of the floor against KG in that series making Kobe's poor shooting series understandable. Look at what the other great perimeter star, LeBron did vs that Celtics defense, he shot 35% and averaged over 5 turnovers. The Celtics loaded up on Kobe with tunnel vision because there was nobody else they needed to focus on. So yeah, he shot poorly, but with one of the greatest defensive teams of all time focusing almost entirely on one player, it's not a big deal. Boston also had a much more talented team with the Lakers missing Bynum and Ariza.

2009- Huge Game 1 to get the series off on the right track (40/8/8/2/2 47 FG%), very solid series and a comfortable 5 game victory. He faced yet another elite defensive team as well (Ranked #1).

2010- Wasn't exactly a great series by any means, but he was still easily the best player overall in the series and he had some big games, in fact people were talking about Kobe getting Finals MVP even if the Lakers had lost through 6. And once again, he was facing an excellent defensive team.

[Kenny Griffin]

kobes been dead for a year and a half and ISH is still afraid of him

thats greatness

[Lebron23]

His game is not built in the NBA finals

[IllegalD]

His game is not built in the NBA finals

Neither is LeBron's 4-6 in the Finals. Biggest Finals loser in NBA history along with West and Wilt.

(2 of those came in questionable shortened seasons. One lockout season, and a condensed pandemic bubble Mickey Mouse ring)

:lebroncry::lebroncry::lebroncry: