Is Dennis Rodman the most underrated player of all-time?

[HoopsNY]

Rodman was All-NBA 2x and won DPOY 2x as well, and 8x All-Defensive. He led the league in rebounding 7 years in a row, averaging nearly an astounding 17 rebounds a game. He won 5 titles in 6 finals appearances, leading the league in rebounds twice in the playoffs. Rodman's impact isn't really indicated in the box score, but here are some other things to consider:

Rodman's teams have some ridiculous W/L records with and without him. For example:

1992-93: The Pistons were 36-26 with Rodman, 4-16 without him.

The Pistons were a 40 win team that year. Rodman is traded and the team becomes a 20 win team.

1993-94: The Spurs were a 49 team the year before Rodman join and become a 55 win team with him.

1994-95: The Spurs win 62 games. In that time, they're an incredible 40-9 with Rodman and 22-11 without him.

They lose to Houston where Robinson gets outplayed on both ends of the floor by Hakeem. In the deciding game 6, Robinson 19/10/5/4/1 with 6 turnovers, shooting a woeful 35%. Rodman puts up 14/17/1/1 on 78% in the loss.

1995-96: The Bulls add Rodman and 3-peat, first setting an NBA record with 72 wins. Rodman was getting FMVP talks and even had MVP votes during the regular season.

1996 Bulls: 72-10
1997 Bulls: 69-13 (48-7 w/Rodman, 21-6 w/o him)
1998 Bulls: 62-20 (Pippen missed half of the season)

1999 Lakers: The Lakers are 17-6 with Rodman, 14-13 without him.

Rodman's impact simply cannot be ignored.

[Norcaliblunt]

Hella overrated at this point.

[3ba11]

Hella overrated at this point.


Seriously

He did nothing with the league MVP in 95' and nobody wanted him - that's when Jordan saved his career

Ultimately, Jordan won the 98' title with Kukoc as the starting PF, while Rodman averaged 4/8 in the 97' Playoffs..

[HoopsNY]

Hella overrated at this point.

How?


Seriously

He did nothing with the league MVP in 95' and nobody wanted him - that's when Jordan saved his career

Ultimately, Jordan won the 98' title with Kukoc as the starting PF, while Rodman averaged 4/8 in the 97' Playoffs..

It is true that he was a locker room headache and the Spurs wanted to get rid of him, teams weren't all that interested. That is a testimony to MJ, Phil, and the Chicago franchise for picking him and regulating his troubles.

But the idea isn't based on just his tenure with Chicago, and you cannot ignore the impact he had defending Malone, as well as what he did in 1996. In addition, there are all of the other years mentioned.

[1987_Lakers]

I feel like he is rated properly, he is often regarded as the GOAT rebounder and an elite defensive player in his prime. He did make 8 All-Defensive teams, selected to a couple All-stars, and made the HOF, I feel like his play on the court is/was recognized.

[HoopsNY]

I feel like he is rated properly, he is often regarded as the GOAT rebounder and an elite defensive player in his prime. He did make 8 All-Defensive teams, selected to a couple All-stars, and made the HOF, I feel like his play on the court is/was recognized.

All of this is true, but his impact on a team's performance is never mentioned. Sure, we can look at the Chicago years, but Rodman's impact extends well beyond that in Detroit, San Antonio, and L.A. It's not a small sample, rather, it's just about his entire career.

I do admit that it's easy said given all of these teams are competitive and championship contenders. But the W/L totals with and without him are amazing.

[97 bulls]

I feel like he is rated properly, he is often regarded as the GOAT rebounder and an elite defensive player in his prime. He did make 8 All-Defensive teams, selected to a couple All-stars, and made the HOF, I feel like his play on the court is/was recognized.

Would you put Rodman in your top 75?

[tontoz]

The bulls traded Will Perdue to get him so obviously the market for him wasn't great at the time.

[eliteballer]

Agenda exposed.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

High impact that gets undervalued. Particularly in '96 where he was a monster.

Worm's play tailed off from 97-99 though. You mentioned the Lakers record in '99, but I think Rice and Horry were a big part of that discrepancy. Horry missed a handful of games in already a condensed year, and the Lakers traded Eddie Jones for Rice. In other words, they needed time to gel.

Rodman gave LA needed rebounding although his impact was low-grade. In fact, he was a net negative in BPM and RPM. Both measures don't track defense very well, but they do account for rebounds. The Lakers went on to part ways with Rodman after he showed up to a game without socks and shoes. :oldlol:

Overall I wouldn't call him the 'most' underrated. I normally reserve that title for players who never won.

[outofstomach]

Agenda exposed.
as per usual

[lakerstekkenn]

Rodman was All-NBA 2x and won DPOY 2x as well, and 8x All-Defensive. He led the league in rebounding 7 years in a row, averaging nearly an astounding 17 rebounds a game. He won 5 titles in 6 finals appearances, leading the league in rebounds twice in the playoffs. Rodman's impact isn't really indicated in the box score, but here are some other things to consider:

Rodman's teams have some ridiculous W/L records with and without him. For example:

1992-93: The Pistons were 36-26 with Rodman, 4-16 without him.

The Pistons were a 40 win team that year. Rodman is traded and the team becomes a 20 win team.

1993-94: The Spurs were a 49 team the year before Rodman join and become a 55 win team with him.

1994-95: The Spurs win 62 games. In that time, they're an incredible 40-9 with Rodman and 22-11 without him.

They lose to Houston where Robinson gets outplayed on both ends of the floor by Hakeem. In the deciding game 6, Robinson 19/10/5/4/1 with 6 turnovers, shooting a woeful 35%. Rodman puts up 14/17/1/1 on 78% in the loss.

1995-96: The Bulls add Rodman and 3-peat, first setting an NBA record with 72 wins. Rodman was getting FMVP talks and even had MVP votes during the regular season.

1996 Bulls: 72-10
1997 Bulls: 69-13 (48-7 w/Rodman, 21-6 w/o him)
1998 Bulls: 62-20 (Pippen missed half of the season)

1999 Lakers: The Lakers are 17-6 with Rodman, 14-13 without him.

Rodman's impact simply cannot be ignored.

Under rated he couldn't shot a jumper and only rebounded and played physical defense, how is he underrated ?

[3ba11]

High impact that gets undervalued. Particularly in '96 where he was a monster.





He was more of a monster in 95' but couldn't win shit with the league MVP Robinson.

And the Bulls barely needed anything out of the PF to win - Kukoc's production was good enough in thei 98' Playoffs (he was the starter), and Horace averaged 11/8 for the 91-93' Playoffs, while Rodman averaged 4/8 for the 97' Playoffs..

So the PF spot was completely replaceable by nearly anyone.. It's a testament to Pippen's crappiness that he was barely .500 with Kukoc in 95' until MJ returned.







Worm's play tailed off from 97-99 though.





Yet the Bulls still won because Rodman wasn't great - 4 points on 35% with 15 rebounds (rodman) is less than 10 rebounds and 10 efficient points (horace, kukoc, anyone)

Ultimately, Rodman was replaceable by a ton of guys because MJ 3-peated with Horace and then won with Kukoc as the starter in the 98' Playoffs, while Rodman was a shell in the 97' Playoffs (4/8 averages).. Rodman was okay in the 96' Playoffs but it wasn't needed.

[HoopsNY]

High impact that gets undervalued. Particularly in '96 where he was a monster.

Worm's play tailed off from 97-99 though. You mentioned the Lakers record in '99, but I think Rice and Horry were a big part of that discrepancy. Horry missed a handful of games in already a condensed year, and the Lakers traded Eddie Jones for Rice. In other words, they needed time to gel.

Rodman gave LA needed rebounding although his impact was low-grade. In fact, he was a net negative in BPM and RPM. Both measures don't track defense very well, but they do account for rebounds. The Lakers went on to part ways with Rodman after he showed up to a game without socks and shoes. :oldlol:

Overall I wouldn't call him the 'most' underrated. I normally reserve that title for players who never won.

lmao I remember that. Man, the worm had some really interesting moments in his career. Nice assessment, and you are correct about the '99 Lakers team, but his contributions were still pretty interesting.

When Rodman wanted, he really put it out on the court. And that '99 season is a small sample, but it comes at what - age 37?

[HoopsNY]

Agenda exposed.

What agenda?

[HoopsNY]

The bulls traded Will Perdue to get him so obviously the market for him wasn't great at the time.

Very true, though the impact still has to be considered. Look at the season he had in 1996 and specifically, the recognition he got for the finals. I think it says a lot about him and what he brought to the table to every team.

[RRR3]

Depends on how good you think he was. He’s generally considered to have been a great player but his eccentricity overshadowed that a lot. If there’s a discussion for best rebounders and best defenders ever, he’ll come up in both though.

[RogueBorg]

Rodman's impact simply cannot be ignored.

You're 100% spot on. He's one of the all-time greats.

[RogueBorg]

Would you put Rodman in your top 75?

I would absolutely.

[HoopsNY]

Depends on how good you think he was. He’s generally considered to have been a great player but his eccentricity overshadowed that a lot. If there’s a discussion for best rebounders and best defenders ever, he’ll come up in both though.

When we think of Rodman, the usual things are mentioned: his defense, rebounding, championships, DPOYs, etc, but the impact he had on teams and raising their ceilings are rarely - if ever - mentioned.

[RRR3]

When we think of Rodman, the usual things are mentioned: his defense, rebounding, championships, DPOYs, etc, but the impact he had on teams and raising their ceilings are rarely - if ever - mentioned.
I’d say that’s probably because he always played with more celebrated stars (Isiah, Dumars, Robinson, MJ, Pippen). And outside of Dumars I don’t think anyone would debate Rodman versus any of those guys.

[HoopsNY]

I’d say that’s probably because he always played with more celebrated stars (Isiah, Dumars, Robinson, MJ, Pippen). And outside of Dumars I don’t think anyone would debate Rodman versus any of those guys.

Yea, this is true, but the fall in those teams' record without Rodman is largely forgotten, and those numbers exist with those great players on their rosters most of the time.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lmao I remember that. Man, the worm had some really interesting moments in his career. Nice assessment, and you are correct about the '99 Lakers team, but his contributions were still pretty interesting.

When Rodman wanted, he really put it out on the court. And that '99 season is a small sample, but it comes at what - age 37?

Thanks, and ya, despite the circus act, I actually liked what Worm brought to the team. :lol

Horry was injured and LA played Travis Knight more minutes than he should've gotten. Sucks that Rodman couldn't get out of his own way, but it is what it is. That series vs SA might've been different with Rodman helping Shaq on the boards vs Timmy and DRob.

[Hey Yo]

Very true, though the impact still has to be considered. Look at the season he had in 1996 and specifically, the recognition he got for the finals. I think it says a lot about him and what he brought to the table to every team.

Multiple FMVP votes while avg. 7ppg that Finals.

[SATAN]

Phil Jackson said Rodman was the best player he ever coached.

[3ba11]

Phil Jackson said Rodman was the best player he ever coached.


Is that why he benched Rodman in the 98' Playoffs and made Kukoc the starter for those Playoffs?

Just like he did to Pippen in 94' (phil preferred Kukoc).. pippen was a choking machine (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif) in that series..

[SATAN]

Is that why he benched Rodman in the 98' Playoffs and made Kukoc the starter for those Playoffs?

Just like he did to Pippen in 94' (phil preferred Kukoc).. pippen was a choking machine (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif) in that series..

Phil Jackson said Rodman was the best player he ever coached.

[1987_Lakers]

Would you put Rodman in your top 75?
Top 75? Probably not, his lack of offense is hard to ignore, it was pretty much non-existent at times, but I'd rather have Rodman on my team if I already have a great team than alot of top 75 guys. Elvin Hayes, Dantley, Iverson, Westbrook etc are all player who come to mind who are better individual players than Rodman, but I'd rather have Rodman if I already have the pieces.

[L.Kizzle]

Can you build around him?
Ben Wallace - similar player. Detroit was actually built and molded around him.

Would it be fair to say Bill Russell and Ben Wallace are defensive anchors who can build around and ...
Dennis Rodman and Draymond Green and pieces to a championship team?

[Axe]

Agenda exposed.
...

[HoopsNY]

Can you build around him?
Ben Wallace - similar player. Detroit was actually built and molded around him.

Would it be fair to say Bill Russell and Ben Wallace are defensive anchors who can build around and ...
Dennis Rodman and Draymond Green and pieces to a championship team?

It's interesting that you brought these names up. Looking at Rodman, Wallace, Russell, and Green, you're looking at what, 26 finals appearances and 21 titles? There has to be something said about that when we look at the structure of teams.

[Bronbron23]

Hella overrated at this point.

Probably this. Not because he's not deserving of it. I'm big on defense so i probably value rod more than most. I say He's overrated because he is relative to other players who have similar impact and stats.

[HoopsNY]

Probably this. Not because he's not deserving of it. I'm big on defense so i probably value rod more than most. I say He's overrated because he is relative to other players who have similar impact and stats.

Outside of anyone of superstar ranking, who do you have in mind?

[Bronbron23]

Outside of anyone of superstar ranking, who do you have in mind?

Draymond and rudy Gobert are 2 players in this era that probably have comparable stats and defensive impact but neither are considered to be on rods level. Rod waa a much better rebounder than green but green was a much better passer and scorer. Both are elite defensively. Rod was a slightly better rebounder than rudy but rudy is a better scorer. Passing and defense is close. Rod was a more versatile defender but Gobert is a better rim protector.

[SaintzFury13]

Is that why he benched Rodman in the 98' Playoffs and made Kukoc the starter for those Playoffs?

Just like he did to Pippen in 94' (phil preferred Kukoc).. pippen was a choking machine (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif) in that series..

Stop being a retard.

[HoopsNY]

Draymond and rudy Gobert are 2 players in this era that probably have comparable stats and defensive impact but neither are considered to be on rods level. Rod waa a much better rebounder than green but green was a much better passer and scorer. Both are elite defensively. Rod was a slightly better rebounder than rudy but rudy is a better scorer. Passing and defense is close. Rod was a more versatile defender but Gobert is a better rim protector.

I don't quite follow. You're saying that Rodman is more on the level of a Draymond or Gobert? Hence he is overrated?

[SaintzFury13]

Draymond and rudy Gobert are 2 players in this era that probably have comparable stats and defensive impact but neither are considered to be on rods level. Rod waa a much better rebounder than green but green was a much better passer and scorer. Both are elite defensively. Rod was a slightly better rebounder than rudy but rudy is a better scorer. Passing and defense is close. Rod was a more versatile defender but Gobert is a better rim protector.

Let me know when either of those guys get FMVP votes and then we can say they had similar impact.

[ShawkFactory]

Let me know when either of those guys get FMVP votes and then we can say they had similar impact.

Draymond would have been FMVP if the warriors had won game 7.

[SaintzFury13]

Draymond would have been FMVP if the warriors had won game 7.

And yet you can argue that him being arguably Golden State's best player in that series is the exact reason they lost.

[HoopsNY]

Let me know when either of those guys get FMVP votes and then we can say they had similar impact.


Draymond would have been FMVP if the warriors had won game 7.


And yet you can argue that him being arguably Golden State's best player in that series is the exact reason they lost.

Yea, Shawk has a point. Not to mention, Draymond finished 7th in MVP voting in 2016, Rodman never finished higher than 10th.

But here's the thing, Rodman was particularly impactful for a very long time, on multiple teams, raising their ceilings quite significantly. I don't think the same can be said about Draymond. Not to mention, Gobert is soft as baby poo and if you ask most fans, they would consider him to be the most overrated defender of this era. The same cannot be said about Rodman.

Lastly, Green and Gobert have had some decent bigs to defend in this era, like AD, Embiid, etc; but I'm not sure they stack up to the 4s and 5s that were around in the 80s and 90s that Rodman faced on a regular basis.

[SaintzFury13]

Yea, Shawk has a point. Not to mention, Draymond finished 7th in MVP voting in 2016, Rodman never finished higher than 10th.

But here's the thing, Rodman was particularly impactful for a very long time, on multiple teams, raising their ceilings quite significantly. I don't think the same can be said about Draymond. Not to mention, Gobert is soft as baby poo and if you ask most fans, they would consider him to be the most overrated defender of this era. The same cannot be said about Rodman.

Lastly, Green and Gobert have had some decent bigs to defend in this era, like AD, Embiid, etc; but I'm not sure they stack up to the 4s and 5s that were around in the 80s and 90s that Rodman faced on a regular basis.

The problem with Green is that he has a very specific skillset that doesn't translate well to other teams. His style of play was perfectly suited for Golden State from 14-18 because he had the Splash Brothers as well as Durant and multiple players who were lengthy and capable of guarding multiple positions, as well as a center who could guard the paint effectively. Even with his jumper falling off a cliff in the later years, he still brought legitimate value because he could run the offense and allow Curry and Thompson to roam to find their spots. The only thing Green will always bring no matter what is elite level defense. At that point however, you have to live with hurting your offense if you have him on a team with a PG who runs the offense even better than he does.

[Reggie43]

He is actually closer to being overrated especially his last two years with the Bulls.

[SaintzFury13]

He is actually closer to being overrated especially his last two years with the Bulls.

Again, why though? He gets the exact amount of credit that he deserves for what he did in the last two years with the Bulls. When you have brain dead morons constantly stating what his stats were in the first one and the fact that he wasn't a starter in the second one, if anything his time with the Bulls becomes underrated.

[Reggie43]

Again, why though? He gets the exact amount of credit that he deserves for what he did in the last two years with the Bulls. When you have brain dead morons constantly stating what his stats were in the first one and the fact that he wasn't a starter in the second one, if anything his time with the Bulls becomes underrated.

As a Pacers fan the main reason their matchup with the Bulls in the playoffs went to the limit in 98 was because of the inside play of Smits and the Davis boys wherein they outplayed Rodman in the paint. Phil had to adjust by giving Kukoc more mins to atleast keep the defense honest.

Dale and Antonio were seen as a tier below Rodman even if he was getting older but he barely had an effect on them in that series and was actually finishing at the rim better in that matchup.

[Bronbron23]

I don't quite follow. You're saying that Rodman is more on the level of a Draymond or Gobert? Hence he is overrated?

No I'm saying he's generally viewed as being much better than those guys but i don't think his impact or stats are much better. Those guys are all a great complementary piece in the right situation but none of them are really franchise type players.

[Bronbron23]

Let me know when either of those guys get FMVP votes and then we can say they had similar impact.

Well gobert would if he was on a team that won the finals. Draymond would have in 16 if steph didn't choke. Plus rod was in an era that recognized defense more. With the game now trying to get away from defense and focus more on offense it's harder for defensive guys like rod to be appreciated for the things they do on the court

[Bronbron23]

Yea, Shawk has a point. Not to mention, Draymond finished 7th in MVP voting in 2016, Rodman never finished higher than 10th.

But here's the thing, Rodman was particularly impactful for a very long time, on multiple teams, raising their ceilings quite significantly. I don't think the same can be said about Draymond. Not to mention, Gobert is soft as baby poo and if you ask most fans, they would consider him to be the most overrated defender of this era. The same cannot be said about Rodman.

Lastly, Green and Gobert have had some decent bigs to defend in this era, like AD, Embiid, etc; but I'm not sure they stack up to the 4s and 5s that were around in the 80s and 90s that Rodman faced on a regular basis.

I don't know man those championship warriors teams aren't winning anything without dray. Especially the pre kd warriors. Rod had nice impact but i think your embellishing it a bit. When rod left the mid 90's spurs after 94 sesson they didn't miss a beat in the 95 season. Plus You could probably replace rod with any solid pf and the bull still win those chips. Sure he could be great but he could also be mediocre and he was often a distraction.

And i don't think your recognizing how much impact centers can have on the game. They influence so many things defensively. Gobert is awkward and his game us ugly but he does have a big impact on the game alot of the time.

[HoopsNY]

No I'm saying he's generally viewed as being much better than those guys but i don't think his impact or stats are much better. Those guys are all a great complementary piece in the right situation but none of them are really franchise type players.

I don't see how this is the case, especially with Gobert. Gobert has nobody's respect in the league, and he has proven to be a horrific defensive stopper in the playoffs. How is he in any way as impactful?

[HoopsNY]

I don't know man those championship warriors teams aren't winning anything without dray. Especially the pre kd warriors. Rod had nice impact but i think your embellishing it a bit. When rod left the mid 90's spurs after 94 sesson they didn't miss a beat in the 95 season. Plus You could probably replace rod with any solid pf and the bull still win those chips. Sure he could be great but he could also be mediocre and he was often a distraction.

And i don't think your recognizing how much impact centers can have on the game. They influence so many things defensively. Gobert is awkward and his game us ugly but he does have a big impact on the game alot of the time.

The 1994-95 Spurs were 40-9 with Rodman in the lineup, that's a 67 win pace. The next season they won 59 games. I get that they were still a contender, but my point was Rodman's impact, in that he could really raise the ceiling of a team.

I think the Warriors still win chips without Draymond, especially when you have Klay-Steph-KD for 2 of those titles. I can't really see the comparison here between Draymond/Gobert and Rodman. Are they miles apart in terms of impact? Well, maybe not for Draymond, but Gobert? I don't think he compares at all.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Not when it comes to rebounding.

[Thenameless]

Rodman is one of those guys that can either be a missing piece to a Championship team or an absolute locker room cancer.

If the team (coach and players) can make it a good fit, his utility is immeasurable. Guys love playing with a guy that doesn't want or need the ball, and gives his all on things like defense and rebounding. Another aspect of his game that can be of great value is his ability to get under an opponent's skin, and if that opponent happens to be a star player and/or the other team's best player, even better.