Where would Magic be ranked all-time nowadays if he had won in 1991 vs Jordan.

[coastalmarker99]

If Magic had won the finals in 1991 he goes out on top with 6 rings and 4 final MVP's and to boot he wins a title without Kareem.




As a result of Magic winning his only head-to-head with Jordan.



Does that change the GOAT discussion?





As it completely reshapes the narrative on Jordan's legacy as he would be remembered as the guy who had to wait for Magic and Bird to drop out of the league to win a title.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It's similar to Curry in 2019 i think. A finals mvp there could of cemented his legacy as a playoff performer.

Magic had Worthy miss a game, just like Klay missed a game.

But as proven in 1991 and 2019, THE GOAT'S GONNA GOAT. Both Curry and Magic were great offensive players that lost against superior overall players.

[3ba11]

Magic had an excellent chance in that series because he nearly won Game 3 when Pippen committed the dumb foul on a stumbling Vlade to foul out.. Vlade hit the FT to give the Lakers the lead with a few seconds left. If they'd won that game, they would've had a 2-1 lead with the next 2 in LA

A healthy Worthy and the Lakers could've won - I want to say PROBABLY win

[Sportal]

Magic had an excellent chance in that series because he nearly won Game 3 when Pippen committed the dumb foul on a stumbling Vlade to foul out.. Vlade hit the FT to give the Lakers the lead with a few seconds left. If they'd won that game, they would've had a 2-1 lead with the next 2 in LA

A healthy Worthy and the Lakers could've won - I want to say PROBABLY win

So...... hold on... So, the Bulls don't get their first 3 peat if Worthy is healthy...?? And as you said, his best rivals, the Jazz... Who you said are no better than the Lob City Clippers... Are the best team Jordan beat?

Well shit...

[3ba11]

So...... hold on... So, the Bulls don't get their first 3 peat if Worthy is healthy...?? And as you said, his best rivals, the Jazz... Who you said are no better than the Lob City Clippers... Are the best team Jordan beat?

Well shit...


The Bulls were a shit team - they only had Jordan - so yeah, they got lucky with injuries to KJ and Worthy to win those chips... but who cares - the Bulls' cast was always outscored by their opponent and required goat stats from MJ to win, so his 6 chips have the highest ring quality.

[coastalmarker99]

The Bulls were a shit team - they only had Jordan - so yeah, they got lucky with injuries to KJ and Worthy to win those chips... but who cares - the Bulls' cast was always outscored by their opponent and required goat stats from MJ to win, so his 6 chips have the highest ring quality.



Your logic does not make sense as if the Bulls were a shit team.


Then we have to ask ourselves how shit were Jordan's final opponents such as the Jazz or Sonics to always lose against a one-man team.




As I mean the SuperSonics in 1996 lost to Jordan who was only averaging 27 PPG on 41% FG.



And that is the teams you are always saying Lebron and his teams couldn't beat.

[AussieSteve]

Look at the agenda driven idiots in the first two responses, trying to make this thread about Kawhi and Pippen. :lol

(Two players who rank pretty similarly all time I might add)

[3ba11]

Look at the agenda driven idiots in the first two responses, trying to make this thread about Kawhi and Pippen. :lol

(Two players who rank pretty similarly all time I might add)


Lowry took over after Kawhi left, just like Pippen took over after Jordan left... So Pippen compares to Lowry, not Kawhi

Pippen lost in the 2nd Round, while Kawhi won the title... there's no comparison - one guy drastically and historically failed as 1st option, while the other guy hit a homerun as 1st option.... Then there's the statistical comparison to support these facts - Pippen's stats compare to Lowry's, not Kawhi's

Carry on deluding yourself though and making up your own truth... it's amusing

[AussieSteve]

Lowry took over after Kawhi left, just like Pippen took over after Jordan left... So Pippen compares to Lowry, not Kawhi

Pippen lost in the 2nd Round, while Kawhi won the title... there's no comparison - one guy drastically and historically failed as 1st option, while the other guy hit a homerun as 1st option.... Then there's the statistical comparison to support these facts - Pippen's stats compare to Lowry's, not Kawhi's

Carry on deluding yourself though and making up your own truth... it's amusing

Narrowly losing to the conference champs with Horace Grant (who you claim was nothing more than a play finisher) as 2nd option is drastically and historically failing? Wow.

What would you call never having a winning season and never winning a playoff series without a 1st ballot HoF sidekick in 5 sttempts?

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif





Narrowly losing to the conference champs with Horace Grant (who you claim was nothing more than a play finisher) is drastically and historically failing? Wow.





Firstly, Pippen had 2 Horace Grants in 1994 because the Bulls added Kukoc, who started for the 98' Playoff run and was comparable to Horace.

Secondly, the 2nd Round loss was a massive failure because Pippen wet the bed with 21.7 on 40%, which included getting outplayed by Ewing and choking 3 different times (the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and a horrible Game 7).

After getting exposed in thei 94' Playoffs, the Pippen had a .500 ballclub in 95' until MJ returned to save the franchise.. So Pippen destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, and Jordan's return promptly restored 3-peat status in his first full seasons back..

Ultimately, it's clear Jordan is the goat because the facts are always on his side, while the opposition can only make excuses for the facts not being on their side.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Bulls were a shit team - they only had Jordan - so yeah, they got lucky with injuries to KJ and Worthy to win those chips... but who cares - the Bulls' cast was always outscored by their opponent and required goat stats from MJ to win, so his 6 chips have the highest ring quality.

:facepalm

Chicago was #1 in ORTG and 7th in DRTG. Also #1 in NetRtg. In those playoffs, Scott outscored all the other teams #1 option in 3/4 of their series.

Again, stick with Kobe topics. Mike and the Bulls aren't in your lane.

[AussieSteve]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif





Firstly, Pippen had 2 Horace Grants in 1994 because the Bulls added Kukoc, who started for the 98' Playoff run and was comparable to Horace.

Secondly, the 2nd Round loss was a massive failure because Pippen wet the bed with 21.7 on 40%, which included getting outplayed by Ewing and choking 3 different times (the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and a horrible Game 7).

After getting exposed in thei 94' Playoffs, the Pippen had a .500 ballclub in 95' until MJ returned to save the franchise.. So Pippen destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, and Jordan's return promptly restored 3-peat status in his first full seasons back..

Ultimately, it's clear Jordan is the goat because the facts are always on his side, while the opposition can only make excuses for the facts not being on their side.

So Kukoc was an all star level player too? Man, those 96-98 Bulls were the most staked team in the league by a mile!!

Also, the Bulls were 34-28 in '95 with Pippen and no Jordan. That's with BJ Armstrong as 2nd option.

What was MJ's best RS record with a BJ Armstrong level 2nd option?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lowry took over after Kawhi left, just like Pippen took over after Jordan left... So Pippen compares to Lowry, not Kawhi

Pippen lost in the 2nd Round, while Kawhi won the title... there's no comparison - one guy drastically and historically failed as 1st option, while the other guy hit a homerun as 1st option.... Then there's the statistical comparison to support these facts - Pippen's stats compare to Lowry's, not Kawhi's

Carry on deluding yourself though and making up your own truth... it's amusing

Nice to see someone with high basketball IQ, instead of that idiot rudgy player over there. I guess I can't expect you to know much about basketball when your country's best player is patty mills hahahaha

Kyle Lowry never even made a 2nd team all NBA team and has just 1 3rd team selection. Zero top 9 mvp voting seasons. Kawhi carried his fatass 18% usage role player ass all the way to the title and beat 5 out of 6 champions in Curry/Giannis.

2019 playoff kawhi was a better playoff run then LeBron or curry ever had, only 2021 giannis comes close in this era. 732 points on 62% TS which LeBron or curry never did and also much better defense.

[3ba11]

So Kukoc was an all star level player too? Man, those 96-98 Bulls were the most staked team in the league by a mile!!

Also, the Bulls were 34-28 in '95 with Pippen and no Jordan. That's with BJ Armstrong as 2nd option.

What was MJ's best RS record without a BJ Armstrong level 2nd option?


Grant was a "korver" all-star, aka 1-timer.. Nobody considers a simple dunker like that an all-star-caliber player - in this particular case, everyone understood that he was awarded all-star status due to the surprise factor that the Bulls weren't cratering.. ditto BJ.. everyone knew this at the time

And again, Pippen had Kukoc in 95', who was better than Grant and Rodman.. Yet the Bulls were still barely .500 before MJ came back - Pippen had destroyed the dynasty in under 2 years!! This included an embarassing, historic playoff debacle against MJ's bitch (the knicks)!!.. A literal nightmare for Pippen without MJ.

[lakerstekkenn]

If Magic had won the finals in 1991 he goes out on top with 6 rings and 4 final MVP's and to boot he wins a title without Kareem.




As a result of Magic winning his only head-to-head with Jordan.



Does that change the GOAT discussion?





As it completely reshapes the narrative on Jordan's legacy as he would be remembered as the guy who had to wait for Magic and Bird to drop out of the league to win a title.

You could say that about Magic, if Magic won every finals he went to, then he would've had 9 championship rings. this would be the greatest of all time argument especially with his Basketball skills, that's 9 championships vs Jordan's 6 championships, but Magic only won 5 championships, if Magic had won all 9 finals appearances giving him 9 championships while Jordan has only 6, others would argue Jordan's all around skill sets, defense; clutch scoring and his scoring abilities plus his assists, while Magic wasn't that type of player, his strength was his assists floor vision but he could score, Magic led the league in steals 2 years in a row while Jordan did it three years in a row, but that didn't happen.

Making the Case - Magic Johnson


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3qAXOzY5k

[AussieSteve]

Grant was a "korver" all-star, aka 1-timer.. Nobody considers a simple dunker like that an all-star-caliber player - in this particular case, everyone understood that he was awarded all-star status due to the surprise factor that the Bulls weren't cratering.. ditto BJ.. everyone knew this at the time

And again, Pippen had Kukoc in 95', who was better than Grant and Rodman.. Yet the Bulls were still barely .500 before MJ came back - Pippen had destroyed the dynasty in under 2 years!! This included an embarassing, historic playoff debacle against MJ's bitch (the knicks)!!.. A literal nightmare for Pippen without MJ.

So what was Jordan's best record with a similar calibre cast to Pippen's in 95? Pippen was 34-28.

[Phoenix]

The Bulls were a shit team - they only had Jordan - so yeah, they got lucky with injuries to KJ and Worthy to win those chips... but who cares - the Bulls' cast was always outscored by their opponent and required goat stats from MJ to win, so his 6 chips have the highest ring quality.

You're basically saying the 90s were a shit era if one man alone could propel an otherwise shit team to 6 championships. Regardless of how good one man individually can be, a singularly great player shouldn't be overcoming great teams in a team sport, which is why MJ didnt win in the 80s. So either his team is better than you're giving credit for( and you can still give MJ his props by saying he made them great), or the era was bad and he didn't need a good team to dominate it. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[Manny98]

He would be tier 1 alongside MJ,Kareem and Lebron

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're basically saying the 90s were a shit era if one man alone could propel an otherwise shit team to 6 championships. Regardless of how good one man individually can be, a singularly great player shouldn't be overcoming great teams in a team sport, which is why MJ didnt win in the 80s. So either his team is better than you're giving credit for( and you can still give MJ his props by saying he made them great), or the era was bad and he didn't need a good team to dominate it. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think Kobeball really cares dude. :lol

Guys like me, blaze, RR and soubeach have all pointed that out to him. Here he is though, repeating the same tripe.

In that playoff run he mentioned, Pippen outscored every #1 scorer except for one. So...in 3/4 of their series Pippen was the leading scorer. Behind Mike. No Jordan fan would directly, or indirectly, call that team and era weak.

[hateraid]

I say Magic is GOAT regardless considering the gauntlet he had to go through. But adding beating Jordan to his resume of Bird and Julius would created less disparity for me.

[ShawkFactory]

I say Magic is GOAT regardless considering the gauntlet he had to go through. But adding beating Jordan to his resume of Bird and Julius would created less disparity for me.

Eh.

He still has a couple flaws as a player to me that would prevent him from being the outright GOAT. If Jordan still wins 5 after that I still think most would consider him better.

He’d be in absolutely everyone’s top 5 though.

[3ba11]

.
It's statistical fact that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs than Dirk's 11 ring:


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[3ba11]

You're basically saying the 90s were a shit era if one man alone could propel an otherwise shit team to 6 championships.





Fellas, stop repeating this bullshit and debunked narrative

Was the league weak in 2011 when Dirk carried the Mavs with Jason Terry?

Jordan simply has 6 rings that are carry-jobs like Dirk's and actually far greater carry-jobs, as the stats confirm above (previous post).

So stop thinking you're making a good point - it was defeated a long time ago.. The 90's weren't any weaker than 2011 - Jordan was just that good.. Accept it

[eliteballer]

Magic was past his prime, in the league since 20 years old and a decade of deep playoff runs with shot knees, and the Lakers might still have won if Worthy and Scott were healthy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic was past his prime, in the league since 20 years old and a decade of deep playoff runs with shot knees, and the Lakers might still have won if Worthy and Scott were healthy.

Magic was second in MVP voting and statistically had one of his best years.

You're confusing peak with prime.

[Phoenix]

Fellas, stop repeating this bullshit and debunked narrative

Was the league weak in 2011 when Dirk carried the Mavs with Jason Terry?

Jordan simply has 6 rings that are carry-jobs like Dirk's and actually far greater carry-jobs, as the stats confirm above (previous post).

So stop thinking you're making a good point - it was defeated a long time ago.. The 90's weren't any weaker than 2011 - Jordan was just that good.. Accept it

I wasn't saying the 90s were weak dumbass.I'm saying YOU are saying, without realizing it, that the 90s wasn't a good era because a one man team( in your eyes) was able to dominate an era. Basketball is a team sport. I dont give a fukk how dominant an individual player is, no one *great* player can defeat a *great* team or dominate an era with several *great* teams while not wielding one himself, even if he was the driving force of that team which he was. If that were not the case, it wouldn't have mattered who he was crewed up with when facing the Celtics and Pistons.

You could make the argument that MJ made the team great, through a combination of his own play,leadership, example, culture-setting, elevating and what have you. But no, your objective is to totally trash the team to inflate MJ by deflating his teammates, with particular emphasis on shitting on Pippen. You are singlehandedly responsible for the 1-9 no Pip, no Chip narrative that runs through this board and stuck in an endless troll-countertroll loop. The only conclusion one can reach from YOUR argument is that he just wasn't beating great teams as a one man solo act.

[3ba11]

I wasn't saying the 90s were weak dumbass.I'm saying YOU are saying, without realizing it, that the 90s wasn't a good era because a one man team( in your eyes) was able to dominate an era. Basketball is a team sport. I dont give a fukk how dominant an individual player is, no one *great* player can defeat a *great* team or dominate an era with several *great* teams while not wielding one himself, even if he was the driving force of that team which he was. If that were not the case, it wouldn't have mattered which he was crewed up with when facing the Celtics and Pistons.

You could make the argument that MJ made the team great, through a combination of his own play,leadership, example, culture-setting, and what have you. But no, your objective is to totally trash the team to inflate MJ by deflating his teammates, with particular emphasis on shitting on Pippen. You are singlehandedly responsible for the 1-9 no Pip, no Chip narrative that runs through this board and stuck in an endless troll-countertroll loop. The only conclusion one can reach from YOUR argument is that he just wasn't beating great teams as a one man solo act.


The stats show that MJ won 6 rings that were bigger carry-jobs than Dirk's 11' ring - this is what the stats say

So Jordans teammates were low-producing bums, according to the stats.. Jordan didn't have any teammates destroying MVP Barkley or Malone like Kyrie did Curry, nor did he have teammates average 25 or get FMVP, which is unprecedented for anyone that won 3 Finals, let alone 6..

So according to the stats, MJ ran over Malone/Stockton just like Dirk ran over Lebron/Wade..

So you're simply splitting hairs to avoid saying that MJ carried the Bulls

[Phoenix]

The stats show that MJ won 6 rings that were bigger carry-jobs than Dirk's 11' ring - this is what the stats say

So Jordans teammates were low-producing bums, according to the stats.. Jordan didn't have any teammates destroying MVP Barkley or Malone like Kyrie did Curry, nor did he have teammates average 25 or get FMVP, which is unprecedented for anyone that won 3 Finals, let alone 6..

So according to the stats, MJ ran over Malone/Stockton just like Dirk ran over Lebron/Wade..

So you're simply splitting hairs to avoid saying that MJ carried the Bulls

I dont need to avoid saying anything. I'm not maniacally obsessed with any of this shit to the extent you are. End of story, you've done more harm to MJ and his era with younger modern fans with your incessant barrage of bullshit. Go outside and get some fukking air.

[3ba11]

I dont need to avoid saying anything. I'm not maniacally obsessed with any of this shit to the extent you are. End of story, you've done more harm to MJ and his era with younger modern fans with your incessant barrage of bullshit. Go outside and get some fukking air.


I disagree on doing harm to MJ's legacy and it's okay to admit that MJ carried the Bulls because Isiah and Magic had no problem admitting it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m35s)

[Phoenix]

I disagree on doing harm to MJ's legacy and it's okay to admit that MJ carried the Bulls because Isiah and Magic had no problem admitting it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m35s)

You disagree on anything and anyone not slurping off MJ. There's no medical facility qualified enough to deal with your obsessive lunacy.

[MadDog]

I disagree on doing harm to MJ's legacy and it's okay to admit that MJ carried the Bulls because Isiah and Magic had no problem admitting it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m35s)

Isiah Thomas & Magic have LeBron number two ALL TIME and on Mt. Rushmore. Be careful using player opinion.

[Phoenix]

Isiah Thomas & Magic have LeBron number two ALL TIME and on Mt. Rushmore. Be careful using player opinion.

Exactly, but that opinion( even from the same people he used to make his earlier point) doesn't fit into his sad little bubble.

[3ba11]

Isiah Thomas & Magic have LeBron number two ALL TIME and on Mt. Rushmore. Be careful using player opinion.


Magic has MJ #1 and the clip I showed was Isiah's opinion in the moment, not 25 years later and motivated by various factors

[MadDog]

Magic has MJ #1 and the clip I showed was Isiah's opinion in the moment, not 25 years later and motivated by various factors

LeBron wasn't playing back then. :confusedshrug: Either way both have him second all time. Something you & I do not agree with - and a big reason I don't take player opinion as gospel.

[AussieSteve]

.
It's statistical fact that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs than Dirk's 11 ring:


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4

CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

3ball. You derailed the thread to make it about Pippen and Jordan, but didn't see it though. Please reply to my last question...

So what was Jordan's best record with a similar calibre cast to Pippen's in 95? Pippen was 34-28.