I'm a 90s era fan and born in the 70s

[hateraid]

Why is it I can only remember clearly 2 Jordan clutch shots? The shot on Ehlo and the shot on Russell? I remember more key shots from Paxson and Kerr.
Don't get me wrong because I do recall Jordan abusing Hawkins on the regular but the legend of Jordan seems really inflated in this specific category.

[3ba11]

the media has reduced MJ's career to 3 soundbites: the switch hands shot and the shots over Ehlo and Russell.

Accordingly, you're simply too young and never watched the goat, so you only know about the media's reports, and they reduced MJ's career to those 3 shots

but I'll tell you what ACTUALLY happened.. Jordan is the only multiple-time champion that had no scoring help.. Accordingly, no one in history hit as many big shots as Jordan because Jordan was the only scoring option on his team, especially down the stretch of games.

Jordan simply didn't have a good scoring partner like everyone else in history had - everyone in history needed a teammate to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led his sidekick in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg.. So Jordan was hitting all the big shots and bailing out his team THROUGHOUT THE GAME because he had no scoring help (the only multiple-time champion with no scoring help)

[Chick Stern]

Jordan pushed

[AirBonner]

Op is right. Kerr was a 40% 3 pt shooter clutch as hell

[Norcaliblunt]

Game 4. 93 finals.

Jordan has 55 points, and hits the “and one” to seal the game.


https://youtu.be/TRFFBEoYuvg

[8Ball]

Why is it I can only remember clearly 2 Jordan clutch shots? The shot on Ehlo and the shot on Russell? I remember more key shots from Paxson and Kerr.
Don't get me wrong because I do recall Jordan abusing Hawkins on the regular but the legend of Jordan seems really inflated in this specific category.

Nike and sportscenter. There were no other super teams in the 90s to talk about so all the media did was talk about the Bulls.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You saying you don't remember them or they didn't happen?

Game-sealing layup vs Barkley's suns in game 4.
The shot pt 2 vs Cleveland ('93 game-winner eliminating the Cavs again)
Taking over late in the 4th quarter and OT vs '91 LA (a handful of clutch shots)
Buzzer beater on Russell in Game 1 of the '97 finals
Flu game where he hit the go-ahead 3

And plenty more. Pretty sure MJ has like 9 game-winners in the playoffs.

[hateraid]

You saying you don't remember them or they didn't happen?

Game-sealing layup vs Barkley's suns in game 4.
The shot pt 2 vs Cleveland ('93 game-winner eliminating the Cavs again)
Taking over late in the 4th quarter and OT vs '91 LA (a handful of clutch shots)
Buzzer beater on Russell in Game 1 of the '97 finals
Flu game where he hit the go-ahead 3

And plenty more. Pretty sure MJ has like 9 game-winners in the playoffs.

I wasn't saying he didn't. I'm saying it's not a ungodly amount like the media and Fairweather fans make.it up to be. Having to recall those games I remember more the shooters like Kerr and Paxson coming up with clutch shots.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I wasn't saying he didn't. I'm saying it's not a ungodly amount like the media and Fairweather fans make.it up to be. Having to recall those games I remember more the shooters like Kerr and Paxson coming up with clutch shots.

The media doing what the media does best. Bullshit.

But you not being able to recall those shots sounds like a personal matter. Like...I don't remember half of Kobe's clutch shots. But by the numbers, objectively he made a lot of them.

[3ba11]

I wasn't saying he didn't. I'm saying it's not a ungodly amount like the media and Fairweather fans make.it up to be. Having to recall those games I remember more the shooters like Kerr and Paxson coming up with clutch shots.

Jordan was the only scoring option on his team, especially down the stretch of games.

So Jordan was hitting big shots and bailing out his team THROUGHOUT THE GAME because he had no scoring help..

Jordan also played the critical "bail out" role in the triangle, so his clutch reputation increased because of that.. So it wasn't just end of game shots - it was throughout the game Jordan hit bailouts and completely carried the scoring load - that's the one thing most people agree that he did

[hateraid]

the media has reduced MJ's career to 3 soundbites: the switch hands shot and the shots over Ehlo and Russell.

Accordingly, you're simply too young and never watched the goat, so you only know about the media's reports, and they reduced MJ's career to those 3 shots

but I'll tell you what ACTUALLY happened.. Jordan is the only multiple-time champion that had no scoring help.. Accordingly, no one in history hit as many big shots as Jordan because Jordan was the only scoring option on his team, especially down the stretch of games.

Jordan simply didn't have a good scoring partner like everyone else in history had - everyone in history needed a teammate to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led his sidekick in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg.. So Jordan was hitting all the big shots and bailing out his team THROUGHOUT THE GAME because he had no scoring help (the only multiple-time champion with no scoring help)

Read the title again Einstein, and do the math.

And judging by your post you are too young to have witnessed basketball in the 90s. You regurgitate everything the media has spoonfed you

[Gohan]

I wasn't saying he didn't. I'm saying it's not a ungodly amount like the media and Fairweather fans make.it up to be. Having to recall those games I remember more the shooters like Kerr and Paxson coming up with clutch shots.

Why listen to you though? Your posts clearly indicate that youre an mj hater, its not like youre unbiased

[3ba11]

Read the title again Einstein, and do the math.

And judging by your post you are too young to have witnessed basketball in the 90s. You regurgitate everything the media has spoonfed you


Forget the age troll in my post - that was a derail... I honestly don't care what age you are and think everyone is cool

The point is that Jordan was the only scoring option on his team, especially down the stretch of games.

So Jordan was hitting big shots and bailing out his team THROUGHOUT THE GAME because he had no scoring help..

Jordan also played the critical "bail out" role in the triangle, so his clutch reputation increased because of that.. So it wasn't just end of game shots - it was throughout the game Jordan hit bailouts and completely carried the scoring load - that's the one thing most people agree that he did

[hateraid]

The media doing what the media does best. Bullshit.

But you not being able to recall those shots sounds like a personal matter. Like...I don't remember half of Kobe's clutch shots. But by the numbers, objectively he made a lot of them.

I recall Jordan dominating games, hence I did mention how he routinely destroyed Hawkins. But given the clutch factor, not saying he wasn't, he just wasn't this another level moment shot maker. No more than I remember Kobe, Magic, Lebron, Durant....

And definitely not the overexaggeration 3testicle is making it out to be

[hateraid]

Why listen to you though? Your posts clearly indicate that youre an mj hater, its not like youre unbiased

Am I a hater for bringing a player down a notch and not slurping him off? I'm being objective. Not hating.

[3ba11]

I recall Jordan dominating games, hence I did mention how he routinely destroyed Hawkins. But given the clutch factor, not saying he wasn't, he just wasn't this another level moment shot maker. No more than I remember Kobe, Magic, Lebron, Durant....

And definitely not the overexaggeration 3testicle is making it out to be


Everyone agrees that Jordan carried the scoring load more than any player in history

That means that Jordan was bailing out his team throughout the game

Btw, Jordan played a lot less playoff games than Lebron, but his FREQUENCY of winners is much higher than Lebron's, while also having 4 clutch shots in Finals to Lebron's 0-9 on the championship level... So MJ completely destroy Lebron (frequency and championship level)

[Bronbron23]

Why is it I can only remember clearly 2 Jordan clutch shots? The shot on Ehlo and the shot on Russell? I remember more key shots from Paxson and Kerr.
Don't get me wrong because I do recall Jordan abusing Hawkins on the regular but the legend of Jordan seems really inflated in this specific category.

Not sure he had a bunch. Maybe it's because there was way less social media and no YouTube or sport shows. Back then if you didn't watch the game or watch the news and wait for the sports telecast you wouldn't see it. It sucked especially in Canada because the sports telecast would show basketball last and it was only a few clips of just a few games.

[Norcaliblunt]

Jordan is considered more clutch than most because he never came up short in the finals. And yes there were a ton of crazy plays he made.

The bottom line is I rooted for Lebron once and he lost. I rooted against Jordan every single time and he won.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I recall Jordan dominating games, hence I did mention how he routinely destroyed Hawkins. But given the clutch factor, not saying he wasn't, he just wasn't this another level moment shot maker. No more than I remember Kobe, Magic, Lebron, Durant....

We're on the same page. I'm only talking about the clutch as well.

But Mike hitting daggers was actually pretty common. If the comparison is to guys like Durant, Kobe and Lebron... Then I agree he's not on some other level. Those dudes have all taken over 4th quarters and late in games.

Kobe has 26 game-winners in total while Jordan had 25. LeBron's got like 19. To Mike and LeBron's credit though they were more efficient


And definitely not the overexaggeration 3testicle is making it out to be

Its 3ball. :lol Might as well be scraping from bottom of the barrel.

[Phoenix]

There's a graph showing that Kobe was statistically not as clutch in term of %. He hit a lot but also took alot more. His Laker teams must have found themselves in alot more bailout situations. :confusedshrug: Lebron is statistically clutch as far as both volume and % but he has the reputation of being a passer and will throw it in the corner to Channing Frye for an open shot as often as he goes for the dagger himself. Different mindsets and breeds perceptions.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not sure he had a bunch. Maybe it's because there was way less social media and no YouTube or sport shows. Back then if you didn't watch the game or watch the news and wait for the sports telecast you wouldn't see it. It sucked especially in Canada because the sports telecast would show basketball last and it was only a few clips of just a few games.

He had a bunch of clutch moments, but it also depends on what someone values. Or what they defy as clutch.

Bron has less game-winners than Mike and Kobe, but also has more walk-off shots than both. That's in the playoffs too. Another dude who gets slept on is Melo. There were years he was arguably the clutchest player in the game.

If the definition is 24 seconds or less, then MJ has the most playoff game-winners. In those situations, he is also the most efficient.

[hateraid]

Everyone agrees that Jordan carried the scoring load more than any player in history

That means that Jordan was bailing out his team throughout the game

Btw, Jordan played a lot less playoff games than Lebron, but his FREQUENCY of winners is much higher than Lebron's, while also having 4 clutch shots in Finals to Lebron's 0-9 on the championship level... So MJ completely destroy Lebron (frequency and championship level)

I can agree with that to an extent. Not the point I'm saying

[hateraid]

He had a bunch of clutch moments, but it also depends on what someone values. Or what they defy as clutch.

Bron has less game-winners than Mike and Kobe, but also has more walk-off shots than both. That's in the playoffs too. Another dude who gets slept on is Melo. There were years he was arguably the clutchest player in the game.

If the definition is 24 seconds or less, then MJ has the most playoff game-winners. In those situations, he is also the most efficient.

At the same time you can say Lebron had more last shot winners?

Not boosting Lebron here. Just making my stance relevant.

When carrying the load per say yes Jordan is another level with guys like Iverson, Kobe...

[3ba11]

.
Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%... 25 games... 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)


Btw, lebron's stats are the same as Kobe and KD's (40% on 3 attempts a game).. so MJ was just a cut above everyone

[3ba11]

We're on the same page. I'm only talking about the clutch as well.

But Mike hitting daggers was actually pretty common. If the comparison is to guys like Durant, Kobe and Lebron... Then I agree he's not on some other level. Those dudes have all taken over 4th quarters and late in games.

Kobe has 26 game-winners in total while Jordan had 25. LeBron's got like 19. To Mike and LeBron's credit though they were more efficient



Its 3ball. :lol Might as well be scraping from bottom of the barrel.


The stats in the previous post show that down the stretch of tight games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 40% on 3.0 attempts for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ....

So the stats confirm that old MJ shot far better in the clutch on 20% more attempts than Lebron, and also KD and Kobe (whose stats were the same as Lebron's, aka 40% on 3.0 attempts).

The stats also show that MJ had the least scoring help compared to Lebron, KD, etc, which is why he has more of a carry-job reputation than they do.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

At the same time you can say Lebron had more last shot winners?

Not boosting Lebron here. Just making my stance relevant.

When carrying the load per say yes Jordan is another level with guys like Iverson, Kobe...

Yep. You can say Lebron had more buzzer beaters aka walk-offs.

He's got 1 more than MJ, I believe.

[3ba11]

Yep. You can say Lebron had more buzzer beaters aka walk-offs.

He's got 1 more than MJ, I believe.


Jordan played a lot less playoff games than Lebron, but his FREQUENCY of winners is much higher than Lebron's, while also having 4 clutch shots in Finals to Lebron's 0-9 on the championship level... So MJ completely destroy Lebron (frequency and championship level)

And the stats posted above confirm that Lebron, KD, and Kobe shot much worse in the clutch than MJ, on far less attempts

[MadDog]

Why listen to you though? Your posts clearly indicate that youre an mj hater, its not like youre unbiased

Been posting here for a year & all guy talks about are "Jordaneers" lol. Most Jordan fans are cool as shit. But since they root for him, OP considers em evil and biased people. :roll: Probably thinks LeBron and Curry fans are 100% kosher.

[j3lademaster]

There's a graph showing that Kobe was statistically not as clutch in term of %. He hit a lot but also took alot more. His Laker teams must have found themselves in alot more bailout situations. :confusedshrug: Lebron is statistically clutch as far as both volume and % but he has the reputation of being a passer and will throw it in the corner to Channing Frye for an open shot as often as he goes for the dagger himself. Different mindsets and breeds perceptions.I've always had a problem with the bolded. MJ famously had the gamewinning assist to Kerr against the Jazz, which I give him full credit for- he created that play and that opportunity. And congrats to Kerr for doing his job and hitting it. But had Kerr missed, I'd still give Jordan the credit for making the right basketball play and creating that same look for his shooter. The fact that Lebron gets shit for Korver missing an open 3 that Lebron created has always been laughable to me. All you can do is create the highest percentage shot possible for the possession, and you live with the results. No shot is 100%, I've seen plenty of missed dunks even.

[3ba11]

I've always had a problem with the bolded. MJ famously had the gamewinning assist to Kerr against the Jazz, which I give him full credit for- he created that play and that opportunity. And congrats to Kerr for doing his job and hitting it. But had Kerr missed, I'd still give Jordan the credit for making the right basketball play and creating that same look for his shooter. The fact that Lebron gets shit for Korver missing an open 3 that Lebron created has always been laughable to me. All you can do is create the highest percentage shot possible for the possession, and you live with the results. No shot is 100%, I've seen plenty of missed dunks even.


Lebron probably wasn't doubled on the Korver play and could've pulled up himself, or Lebron didn't get the ball to Korver in perfect rhythm like Jordan did Kerr

Most importantly, Jordan had a career/reputation for bailout shots and was 4-8 on clutch shots in the Finals (0-9 for Lebron), so Jordans fearlessness was contagious - that's why Jordans teammates always hit when he passed to them with the game on the line, while LeChoke's teammates follow his lead

[j3lademaster]

Lebron probably wasn't doubled on the Korver play and could've pulled up himself, or Lebron didn't get the ball to Korver in perfect rhythm like Jordan did KerrYeah MJ was an underrated playmaker for sure. I don't think I've ever seen another player who can improvise like him. Like being midshot and changing it into a perfect pass last second.

you can argue the ability to improvise is the most important skill in basketball. In a best of 7 series where both teams have scouted each other to death and know every play they will run. Coaching almost doesn't matter at that point.

[3ba11]

Yeah MJ was an underrated playmaker for sure. I don't think I've ever seen another player who can improvise like him. Like being midshot and changing it into a perfect pass last second.

you can argue the ability to improvise is the most important skill in basketball. In a best of 7 series where both teams have scouted each other to death and know every play they will run. Coaching almost doesn't matter at that point.


Yes and unfortunately, today's format of a wide open lane and spacing reduces the need for ad-hoc, off-th-cuff moves.. It's a joke to compare the instinctive, unexpected passing of Magic/Bird to today's planned out attacks on the spacing for open looks - it looks more like a routine of some sort than a randomly-moving basketball game that required pure skill (more instinctive)

[kawhileonard2]

This is the reason

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

[nayte]

Kinda agree with op. I remember those 4 shots more then others but when Kaniva brought up the others big shots he has hit I can remember them. So dunno .

[3ba11]

.
Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 FGA/GM


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%.... 25 games... 3.6 FGA/GM


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)



^^^^ So the stats prove that Jordan was more clutch than Lebron... :confusedshrug:... /thread...

Old Jordan (34 and 35 years old) had 20% more clutch attempts at far better efficiency than Lebron, Kobe or KD.

[RRR3]

.
Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%.... 25 games... 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)



^^^^ So the stats prove that Jordan was more clutch than Lebron... :confusedshrug:... /thread...

Old Jordan (34 and 35 years old) had 20% more clutch attempts at far better efficiency than Lebron, Kobe or KD.
Yeah Jordan is the GOAT whatever. Too bad LeBron is second and your hero Kobe is like 12th lmao.

[Jasper]

Why is it I can only remember clearly 2 Jordan clutch shots? The shot on Ehlo and the shot on Russell? I remember more key shots from Paxson and Kerr.
Don't get me wrong because I do recall Jordan abusing Hawkins on the regular but the legend of Jordan seems really inflated in this specific category.

I am older than you , and your still stuck in a time warp

[MadDog]

We can't be sure but my theory is that you were dropped on the head as a child. Repeatedly.

Lol. Seriously though. How do you watch that era and "only remember" 2 clutch shots from Jordan.

[DoctorP]

Why is it I can only remember clearly 2 Jordan clutch shots? The shot on Ehlo and the shot on Russell? I remember more key shots from Paxson and Kerr.
Don't get me wrong because I do recall Jordan abusing Hawkins on the regular but the legend of Jordan seems really inflated in this specific category.

so you are old and forgetful and Jordan's legend seems inflated due to your senile ass? okay, fine.

[Elosha]

There's a graph showing that Kobe was statistically not as clutch in term of %. He hit a lot but also took alot more. His Laker teams must have found themselves in alot more bailout situations. :confusedshrug: Lebron is statistically clutch as far as both volume and % but he has the reputation of being a passer and will throw it in the corner to Channing Frye for an open shot as often as he goes for the dagger himself. Different mindsets and breeds perceptions.

This is true and I agree with you in general. But there is also a bit of context. What is amazing about Jordan and to a lesser extent Kobe is that they could defeat you with any type of clutch shot and an any type of situation. They were the epitome of clutch shotmakers, whether it be driving, pull-ups, even threes. People don't realize it but Jordan had a number of game-winning threes, and/or extremely clutch threes, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Such as game 5 in 1997 against Utah, the Flu Game. Kevin Durant has some of that same shot-making clutch gene, although he has nowhere near as many gamewinners. I will say that if he had hit that game winning three in Game 7 against Milwaukee this year where his foot was just barely on the line leading to the game being tied, it would have probably gone down as one of the greatest clutch shots of all time.

This is no disrespect for LeBron, he clearly does have a large number of game winners as well. But -- many if not most of LeBron's game winners come from drives, (including at least two playoff game winners that were clear travels against the Washington Wizards and never should have been counted). He's extremely good at driving and scoring clutch shots off layups, using both his natural athleticism and his bulk to bounce off defenders. But if he is often stymied if not allowed to drive, and his options and confidence go down. This is one reason why he has such a reputation for passing and sometimes disappearing in the clutch, because not infrequently if he's not permitted to drive for a game-winning shot, he does not feel usually very comfortable with hard dribbling stop-and-pop mid-range shots for the win. LeBron has just have never had the feel for that extremely difficult mid-range contested shot.

Now -- obviously there are exceptions such as when he hit the extremely difficult game-winning bank shot against Toronto in 2020 playoffs. But those are by-and-large exception rather than the rule. If a defensive player is playing LeBron for a game-winning shot, the key is to turn him into a jump shooter. He will then become most likely more of a passer or perhaps not even go after the ball for the game-winning shot. It's when you give him an easy drive (here's looking at you Jimmy Butler) where he can be so deadly as a game-winner.

[hateraid]

We can't be sure but my theory is that you were dropped on the head as a child. Repeatedly.

OK racist

[hateraid]

so you are old and forgetful and Jordan's legend seems inflated due to your senile ass? okay, fine.

Yet I can remember clutch shots Magic made? Clutch steals by Bird? I can recall MJ beating up on Hawkins?
I remember MJ being dominant. I also remember that his teammates hit most of the clutch shots to boost his legacy

[hateraid]

Lol. Seriously though. How do you watch that era and "only remember" 2 clutch shots from Jordan.

This thread proves it. Jordan's shots need to be brought up to remind people. It would be the same with Lebron, Kobe or any other player. Lebronites could probably pepper LBJ winning shots and peeps would be like "oh yeah, now I remember". But you wouldn't understand the concept

[warriorfan]

Op having a low iq meltdown in his size 8 Jordans.

[MadDog]

This thread proves it. Jordan's shots need to be brought up to remind people. It would be the same with Lebron, Kobe or any other player. Lebronites could probably pepper LBJ winning shots and peeps would be like "oh yeah, now I remember". But you wouldn't understand the concept

Jordan hit clutch shots that you don't remember whereas most people do. :confusedshrug: Your "forgetfulness" doesn't prove anything.

[Norcaliblunt]

I don’t remember it so it didn’t happen. Lol.

It’s okay Jordan being overhyped but still better than Lebron can both be true.

[hateraid]

Jordan hit clutch shots that you don't remember whereas most people do. :confusedshrug: Your "forgetfulness" doesn't prove anything.

But most people don't. They just regurgitate the same shot over and over

[Phoenix]

This is true and I agree with you in general. But there is also a bit of context. What is amazing about Jordan and to a lesser extent Kobe is that they could defeat you with any type of clutch shot and an any type of situation. They were the epitome of clutch shotmakers, whether it be driving, pull-ups, even threes. People don't realize it but Jordan had a number of game-winning threes, and/or extremely clutch threes, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Such as game 5 in 1997 against Utah, the Flu Game. Kevin Durant has some of that same shot-making clutch gene, although he has nowhere near as many gamewinners. I will say that if he had hit that game winning three in Game 7 against Milwaukee this year where his foot was just barely on the line leading to the game being tied, it would have probably gone down as one of the greatest clutch shots of all time.

This is no disrespect for LeBron, he clearly does have a large number of game winners as well. But -- many if not most of LeBron's game winners come from drives, (including at least two playoff game winners that were clear travels against the Washington Wizards and never should have been counted). He's extremely good at driving and scoring clutch shots off layups, using both his natural athleticism and his bulk to bounce off defenders. But if he is often stymied if not allowed to drive, and his options and confidence go down. This is one reason why he has such a reputation for passing and sometimes disappearing in the clutch, because not infrequently if he's not permitted to drive for a game-winning shot, he does not feel usually very comfortable with hard dribbling stop-and-pop mid-range shots for the win. LeBron has just have never had the feel for that extremely difficult mid-range contested shot.

Now -- obviously there are exceptions such as when he hit the extremely difficult game-winning bank shot against Toronto in 2020 playoffs. But those are by-and-large exception rather than the rule. If a defensive player is playing LeBron for a game-winning shot, the key is to turn him into a jump shooter. He will then become most likely more of a passer or perhaps not even go after the ball for the game-winning shot. It's when you give him an easy drive (here's looking at you Jimmy Butler) where he can be so deadly as a game-winner.

Think you mean 2018 but yeah, agree with your post for the most part. One thing I note is that Lebron is good at the hail mary shot where he has to either catch and fire:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dru1aKwRebs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkvTLOhm-TQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lswi2Y7L58M

Yes, there are obvious exceptions to the above examples but mostly I'm saying he does well when he....thinks less and shoots quickly because the situation demands it. My guess is Lebron is very much a cerebral player and occasionally prone to overthinking, surveying the floor. When he just says 'fukk it, I'll do it myself' like in the above situations where he can only react, he's had success in that.

[Phoenix]

Or take a couple quick dribbles and fire ( forum only allows 3 vids per post):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPN_QRve83M

[MadDog]

But most people don't. They just regurgitate the same shot over and over

You claim to recall Bird and Magic's clutch shots. If we know Jordan also hit them, why do you only remember 2? lol

[RogueBorg]

You don't remember the game winning shot at the buzzer in Game 1 of the '97 Finals against Utah?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiAqzftbmCQ

[nayte]

Jordan hit clutch shots that you don't remember whereas most people do. :confusedshrug: Your "forgetfulness" doesn't prove anything.

You're right with this. I didn't remember a lot if those shots till they were brought up but I understand that's on me im not arrogant enough like op to think that everyone must not remember just cause I dont

[MadDog]

You're right with this. I didn't remember a lot if those shots till they were brought up but I understand that's on me im not arrogant enough like op to think that everyone must not remember just cause I dont

Well said, nayte

[Airupthere]

Lol, this is another mj hate thread by the OP trying to mask it as anything but.