Modern players that won multiple rings w/ true 2nd option (low stat peak & no FMVP):

[3ba11]

Jordan (6)
Kobe (2)


And the only guys to do it once are Hakeem in 94' or Dirk in 11'.

CONCLUSION - only MJ, Kobe, Dirk and Hakeem won without scoring help

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen scored more in every finals from 91-93 than Wade did in 2013.

[3ba11]

Pippen scored more in every finals from 91-93 than Wade did in 2013.


Pippen scored 10-20 less than Jordan (carried), while Wade scored 5 less than Lebron on better efficiency (1a/1b)

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen scored 10-20 less than Jordan (carried), while Wade scored 5 less than Lebron on better efficiency (1a/1b)

Pippen factually provided more scoring than Wade

[3ba11]

Pippen factually provided more scoring than Wade


They scored the same (20 ppg), except that was Pippen's peak (2nd option), while Wade was capable of much more than that (elite 1st option)

So again, only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with true 2nd option (low statistical peak & no FMVP)

[ShawkFactory]

They scored the same (20 ppg), except that was Pippen's peak (2nd option), while Wade was capable of much more than that (elite 1st option)

So again, only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with true 2nd option (low statistical peak & no FMVP)

So what you’ve done is rigged a scenario by pulling out extraneous factors to make someone who has scored more..be less scoring help. Lame

[3ba11]

So what you’ve done is rigged a scenario by pulling out extraneous factors to make someone who has scored more..be less scoring help. Lame


Lebron had a big 3, so they shared the scoring more and therefore Wade had less burden then pippen

Bottom line - only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with true 2nd option (low statistical peak & no FMVP)

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron had a big 3, so they shared the scoring more and therefore Wade had less burden then pippen

Bottom line - only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with true 2nd option (low statistical peak & no FMVP)

Oh so now team circumstances and “burden” actually CAN affect scoring numbers? Yikes you just shat on a entire anti-Lebron talking point :lol

[3ba11]

Oh so now team circumstances and “burden” actually CAN affect scoring numbers? Yikes you just shat on a entire anti-Lebron talking point :lol


Lebron needs a big 3 super-team to win, or he needs a teammate to out-produce him - he never won without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer like MJ and Kobe did.

Heck, no one would've thought Jordan was goat if Pippen had dominated MVP Malone in the Finals like Kyrie did Curry.. But everyone knew they were carry-jobs, so Jordan was anointed goat.. aka Jordans ring quality is dimensions superior to Lebron's

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron needs a big 3 super-team to win, or he needs a teammate to out-produce him - he never won without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer like MJ and Kobe did.

Heck, no one would've thought Jordan was goat if Pippen had dominated MVP Malone in the Finals like Kyrie did Curry.. So Jordans ring quality is dimensions superior to Lebron's

You just skirted around your Seismic logic shift pretty poorly there :lol

[3ba11]

You just skirted around your Seismic logic shift pretty poorly there :lol


Lebron's lower scoring burden means he has a lower burden compared to Jordan - Lebron scores a far lower proportion of his team's points

[ShawkFactory]

Horace averaged more PPG over the 91-93 finals than Bosh did in 2013 :lol

[3ba11]

Horace averaged more PPG over the 91-93 finals than Bosh did in 2013 :lol


Horace played to capacity at 13 ppg, while Bosh was at half capacity

Horace was a play-finisher, while Bosh was reduced to play-finisher

[tpols]

And when you look at MJ, Kobe, Dirk, and Hakeem what do they all have in common?

GOAT skill.

By the way, you have to add Bird to your list. He won all of his titles with McHale who was Pau level, and in the first title McHale was a role player producing worse than Pippen.

[ShawkFactory]

Horace played to capacity at 13 ppg, while Bosh was at half capacity

Horace was a play-finisher, while Bosh was reduced to play-finisher

What does that have to do with anything? We were talking about “burdens”

[Stephonit]

Is Iguodala > Pippen now?

[MadDog]

And when you look at MJ, Kobe, Dirk, and Hakeem what do they all have in common?

GOAT skill.

By the way, you have to add Bird to your list. He won all of his titles with McHale who was Pau level, and in the first title McHale was a role player producing worse than Pippen.

Mchale and Parish were better defenders than Pau. For as good as PG was, Kobe did some srs heavy-lifting in those playoffs. You'll hear that players hit clutch shots or bailed him out, but that happens on most championship teams. :confusedshrug: Look at the players you brought up. Jet hit clutch shots for Dirk. Horry, Cassell, Mario Ellie and Jet hit clutch shots for Hakeem. Kerr and Paxon hit clutch shots for Jordan etc. The list goes on - we got to give Kobe credit where its due.

Duncan in 2003 should also get a HM.

[ShawkFactory]

And what about Duncan? He has 2 rings where he scored 10ppg more than the second guy.

[3ba11]

And what about Duncan? He has 2 rings where he scored 10ppg more than the second guy.


Duncan won with teammates that were FMVP

only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with true 2nd options (low statistical peak and no FMVP)

[RRR3]

Look at how badly 3ball has to scramble to try and get Kobe in the conversation :roll:

[j3lademaster]

What about Wade in... was it 07?

[SouBeachTalents]

Look at how badly 3ball has to scramble to try and get Kobe in the conversation :roll:
Only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with true 2nd options (low statistical peak and no FMVP)

[SouBeachTalents]

What about Wade in... was it 07?
Really? :lol

[j3lademaster]

Really? :lolWade won a ring averaging 15ish more ppg than his 2nd option in the finals. Isn't that the criteria?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:no:

2000 Kobe averaged 15ppg in the finals, and Shaq outscored him by 22. By your 'carry' definition, Shaq had MULTIPLE finals outscoring Kobe by ~10. The same number of points Dirk outscored Terry by.

Be consistent, Kobeball.

[000]

What about Wade in... was it 07?
No it was 85

[3ba11]

Wade won a ring averaging 15ish more ppg than his 2nd option in the finals. Isn't that the criteria?


The criteria is winning with a true 2nd option, which Shaq was not - and Shaq was still decent at that time with MVP candidacy in 05'.. But otherwise, the criteria for true 2nd option is in the thread title - low statistical peak and no FMVP in career

[000]

The criteria is winning with a true 2nd option, which Shaq was not
Yeah. He was 3rd

[RRR3]

:no:

2000 Kobe averaged 15ppg in the finals, and Shaq outscored him by 22. By your 'carry' definition, Shaq had MULTIPLE finals outscoring Kobe by ~10. The same number of points Dirk outscored Terry by.

Be consistent, Kobeball.
He can’t be consistent, then Kobe would look bad.





:(

[3ba11]

:no:

2000 Kobe averaged 15ppg in the finals, and Shaq outscored him by 22. By your 'carry' definition, Shaq had MULTIPLE finals outscoring Kobe by ~10. The same number of points Dirk outscored Terry by.

Be consistent, Kobeball.


The thread title says the criteria for 2nd option status is low statistical peak (not Kobe) and no FMVP (not Kobe).

In other words, 2nd options are non-mvp, lower producers, aka rip hamilton, Klay, or Pippen - that's the caliber.. MJ won 6 with sidekicks of this caliber, while Kobe won 2, and Hakeem/Dirk/Curry/Kawhi won 1

[000]

The thread title says the criteria for 2nd option status is low statistical peak (not Kobe) and no FMVP (not Kobe).

In other words, 2nd options are non-mvp, lower producers, aka rip hamilton, Klay, or Pippen - that's the caliber.. MJ won 6 with sidekicks of this caliber, while Kobe won 2, and Hakeem/Dirk/Curry/Kawhi won 1
Is 14 ppg on 53% ts a 1st option or a 2nd option, in your opinion

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi in 2019 was the #1 ever

- nobody ever eliminated the players the caliber of giannis and curry (two different multiple MVP winners and 4 titles total)

- 732 points on 62% TS (best ever total points and TS)

- only game 7 buzzer beater ever

- raptors were an expansion team in the 90s and had no stars on the roster

- star duo of Embiid/Butler in 2nd round

[3ba11]

Is 14 ppg on 53% ts a 1st option or a 2nd option, in your opinion


Has that player typically been a non-mvp, lower-producer (2nd option) and not out of their prime?

[000]

Has that player typically been a non-mvp, lower-producer (2nd option) and not out of their prime?
Maybe you didnt understand the question, so let me repeat myself:

Is 14 ppg on 53% ts a 1st option or a 2nd option

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6904/c95494888298cae5fbf064f414f6c63f05986450r1-706-1255v2_hq.jpg

This is the all time record for scoring discrepancy between a championship first option and second option in Finals history

[RRR3]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6904/c95494888298cae5fbf064f414f6c63f05986450r1-706-1255v2_hq.jpg

This is the all time record for scoring discrepancy between a championship first option and second option in Finals history
Kobe’s TS% was 41% in that series :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The thread title says the criteria for 2nd option status is low statistical peak (not Kobe) and no FMVP (not Kobe).

In other words, 2nd options are non-mvp, lower producers, aka rip hamilton, Klay, or Pippen - that's the caliber.. MJ won 6 with sidekicks of this caliber, while Kobe won 2, and Hakeem/Dirk/Curry/Kawhi won 1

https://c.tenor.com/gBd1CunHTYAAAAAC/lol-shaquilleoneal.gif

What does 'peak play' have to do with the moment? What you provide in that time space is what counts.

Again, going by your ridiculous narrative, Shaq has to be on that list. He produced more than Kobe and had multiple finals carrying. Particularly in 2000 where Shaq also had the same if not better crunchtime numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This is the all time record for scoring discrepancy between a championship first option and second option in Finals history

By screwball's own fukking standard it is.

Imagine 'forgetting' someone who fit your criteria BEST. Absurd.

[RRR3]

By screwball's own fukking standard it is.

Imagine 'forgetting' someone who fit your criteria BEST. Absurd.
I’m really understanding why he hides behind Mike now. His “arguments” for Kobe fall apart on the slightest examination and convince absolutely no one.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not sure why everybody is ripping on Kobe here. 2 finals MVPS as the alpha without Shaq.

Now what did Shaq ever do without Kobe? his bitch ring in 06 hahahhaah

[AirBonner]

Years from now psychologists will use 3ball threads to teach classes

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg% | 41 TS%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%

[3ba11]

https://c.tenor.com/gBd1CunHTYAAAAAC/lol-shaquilleoneal.gif

What does 'peak play' have to do with the moment? What you provide in that time space is what counts.





Peak play will reveal their maximum scoring capability - Pippen's was only 22 ppg, while Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, AD, Curry, Kareem, Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Parker was high-20's or 30's - they were elite 1st option or MVP-caliber (fmvp), while pippen was a 2nd option and not mvp caliber (0/6 in fmvp).

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Kobe's averages across the board in-game sevens.

Game sevens

22.2 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

8.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

5.0 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG% 38.9% (Regular season career average is 44.7%)

FT% 67.3%(Regular season career average is 83.7%)

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Kobe's averages across the board In elimination games

9 10 W-L record

22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

5.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

3.5 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.3 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG 44.0%(Regular season career average is 44.7%)

TS% 50.3 (Regular season career average is 55.0%)

[3ba11]

Here are Kobe's averages across the board In elimination games

9 10 W-L record

22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

5.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

3.5 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.3 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG 44.0%(Regular season career average is 44.7%)

TS% 50.3 (Regular season career average is 55.0%)


Cherry-picking is useless..

We don't know if Kobe had high seeds or low seeds in those results

Otoh, we know that Lebron always had high seeds for his entire playoff career because he can't carry lottery teams to a low seed - so he needs favored, high seeds with all-star teammates to make the playoffs.

[coastalmarker99]

Cherry-picking is useless..

We don't know if Kobe had high seeds or low seeds in those results - we know that Lebron always had high seeds for his entire playoff career because he can't carry lottery teams to a low seed and needs favored, high seeds to be in the playoffs.


Lebron carried Lottery level teams to the finals in 2007 and 2018 and to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010.


The Cavs record with Lebron in 2018 was 50 wins and 32 losses.



The Cavs record without Lebron in 2019, once he left to LA, was 19 wins and 63 losses


That is a 30 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left.




The Cavs record was 61 wins and 21 losses in 2010.


However, the Cavs record without Lebron in 2011 once he left to Miami was 19 wins and 63 losses


That is a 42 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left to Miami.

[AirBonner]

Lebron carried Lottery level teams to the finals in 2007 and 2018 and to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010.


The Cavs record with Lebron in 2018 was 50 wins and 32 losses.



The Cavs record without Lebron in 2019, once he left to LA, was 19 wins and 63 losses


That is a 30 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left

Bingo

[SouBeachTalents]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg% | 41 TS%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%

Here are Kobe's averages across the board in-game sevens.

Game sevens

22.2 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

8.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

5.0 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG% 38.9% (Regular season career average is 44.7%)

FT% 67.3%(Regular season career average is 83.7%)

Here are Kobe's averages across the board In elimination games

9 10 W-L record

22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

5.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

3.5 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.3 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG 44.0%(Regular season career average is 44.7%)

TS% 50.3 (Regular season career average is 55.0%)
https://media.giphy.com/media/10FHR5A4cXqVrO/giphy.gif?cid=790b76111d0310d1680fd364000276934f57 0899b0f3867d&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[coastalmarker99]

Cherry-picking is useless..

We don't know if Kobe had high seeds or low seeds in those results

Otoh, we know that Lebron always had high seeds for his entire playoff career because he can't carry lottery teams to a low seed - so he needs favored, high seeds with all-star teammates to make the playoffs.



All of Kobe's numbers dip severely in game sevens and elimination games.



And not I am even not including game-winning shot attempts in the playoffs which he hit at a sub 30% clip.




There are tons of players who aren't considered clutch that are better big-game performers than Kobe was.

[SouBeachTalents]

Cherry-picking is useless..

We don't know if Kobe had high seeds or low seeds in those results

Otoh, we know that Lebron always had high seeds for his entire playoff career because he can't carry lottery teams to a low seed - so he needs favored, high seeds with all-star teammates to make the playoffs.
Says the fakkit using THE most cherry picked criteria imaginable :lol

[coastalmarker99]

Jerry West who is the second greatest Laker SG of all time destroys Kobe when it comes to performing in-game sevens and elimination games along with performing in the NBA finals.


And we are not even accounting for blocks or Steals which West would have had a lot of.


Here are Jerry West's game seven averages

4- 5 W-L record

30.9 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.8 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

47.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)

TS% 54.3 Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)



Here are Jerry West's elimination games averages

13 11 W-L record

29.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

6.4 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.4 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

55% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)



Here are Jerry West's finals averages

30.5 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

5.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

45.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)





West also finished second in MVP voting 4 times throughout his career.


And was so respected that he is the only player in NBA history to get the FMVP on a losing team.

[RRR3]

Holy shit, 3ball is completely helpless when it comes to debating regards to Kobe. All he has is feeble emotion based statements. At least with MJ he had data. This is why he pretends to be a MJ fan lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Jerry West who is the second greatest Laker SG of all time destroys Kobe when it comes to performing in-game sevens and elimination games along with performing in the NBA finals.


And we are not even accounting for blocks or Steals which West would have had a lot of.


Here are Jerry West's game seven averages

4- 5 W-L record

30.9 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.8 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

47.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)

TS% 54.3 Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)



Here are Jerry West's elimination games averages

13 11 W-L record

29.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

6.4 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.4 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

55% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)



Here are Jerry West's finals averages

30.5 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

5.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

45.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)





West also finished second in MVP voting 4 times throughout his career.


And was so respected that he is the only player in NBA history to get the FMVP on a losing team.
That's why basketball's a cruel sport. A couple of games go differently West would be a top 10 player of all time. The bitter irony is the one time he won he shot an atrocious 38% in the playoffs & 33% in the Finals

[coastalmarker99]

The most amazing aspect of Kobe's elimination games were they combined his god awful individual performance with his team getting their asses utterly kicked on numerous occasions

2003: 20/2/6 on 9/19 50%TS with 7 turnovers in a 28 point loss at home

2004: 24/3/4 on 7/21 46%TS in a 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go

2006: 24/4/1 on 8/16 66%TS in a 31 point loss, infamously quit in the 2nd half

2007: 34/4/1 on 13/33 47%TS with 6 turnovers in a 9 point loss

2008: 22/3/1 on 7/22 46%TS with 4 turnovers in a 39 point loss

2011: 17/3/1 on 7/18 43%TS with 5 turnovers in a 36 point loss

2012: 42/5/0 on 18/33 58%TS in a 16 point loss


Average: 26/3/2 on 23 shots 51%TS 4 turnovers with an average defeat of 25 ppg

[3ba11]

Lebron carried Lottery level teams to the finals in 2007 and 2018





Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd proved that a good team wasn't needed to win the East the majority of that decade, so Lebron's cast in 2007 was more than sufficient - a top defense along with a couple all-star or all-defensive teammates and the future COY is more than enough (#3 defense + Zydrunas, Hughes, Mike Brown)..

Furthermore, we know for a fact that Lebron can't carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs because he failed 3 times in 04', 05', and 19'!!!!!!!!!!






and to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010.





Lebron had better-ranked defenses those years than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options.. That's why they were the league favorite both years but lost.

So Lebron is the only player ever that lost in back-to-back years with 60-win, 1 seeds... :facepalm:.. then he lost as the favorite in 2011 so everyone made him the underdog in 2012.. that's f'ing embarassing.

[3ba11]

Says the fakkit using THE most cherry picked criteria imaginable :lol


I'm using wide swaths of games and situations, while this fool is only using game 7's, which means exactly nothing.

you must do badly on standardized tests

[RRR3]

LeBron comes up big in the clutch. Kobe pooped his pants. Poooooor Kobeball

[Gohan]

Dirks ring is better than any of mjs rings

[coastalmarker99]

Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd proved that a good team wasn't needed to win the East the majority of that decade, so Lebron's cast in 2007 was more than sufficient - a top defense along with a couple all-star or all-defensive teammates and the future COY is more than enough (#3 defense + Zydrunas, Hughes, Mike Brown)..

Furthermore, we know for a fact that Lebron can't carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs because he failed 3 times in 04', 05', and 19'!!!!!!!!!!


Lebron had better-ranked defenses those years than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options.. That's why they were the league favorite both years but lost.

So Lebron is the only player ever that lost in back-to-back years with 60-win, 1 seeds... :facepalm:.. then he lost as the favorite in 2011 so everyone made him the underdog in 2012.. that's f'ing embarassing.

Lebron was injured in 2019 and had to rush back ahead of time due to how badly the Lakers were doing without him.


Also, the Cavs had only had better-ranked defences those years than the 1st three-peat Bulls due to how dominant Lebron was on the defensive end in those seasons.


From 08-10, LeBron missed 14 games. Here are the results:

Defence:

On court: 100.6 D rating (-7.7 relative to league average)

Off-court: 108.8 D rating (+0.5 rel to LA)

Difference: -8.2

The Cavs went from #1 D in the league with LeBron on the court to the equivalent of 18th when he missed games.


Here is what some of the top SF of 2009 did vs LeBron offensively (their regular season per 36 in parenthesis)


Durant- 16.4 PPG, .51.8 TS% (23.3 PPG, .57.7 TS%)


Pierce- 18.1 PPG, .47.4 TS% (19.7 PPG, .58.2 TS%)


Johnson- 13.7 PPG, .475 TS% (19.5 PPG, .53.4 TS%)


Carmelo- 15.8 PPG, .488 TS% (23.8 PPG, .53.2 TS%)


Butler- 14.2 PPG, .438 TS% (19.4 PPG, .55.2 TS%)


Gay- 10.9 PPG, .357 TS% (18.3 PPG, .52.8 TS%)


Average dropoff: -5.8 PPG, -9.3 TS%



What’s amazing is that when faced Cleveland and LeBron was off the court, they dominated:


The 6 SF’s stats when (Per 36):


LeBron on court: 15.1 PPG, .46.1 TS%, 3.3 Reb, 3.6 AST-3.4 TOV, -9.4 +/-


LeBron off court: 24.6 PPG, .59.6 TS%, 5.9 Reb, 2.3 AST-1.8 TOV, +0.9 +/-


That is a 9.5 points per 36 and 13.5 TS% difference.



In the playoffs, LeBron continued playing elite man defence.


Here are how some of his guys did when LeBron was on the court (per 36 minutes):


Tayshaun Prince: 3.9 PPG, .26.0 TS%


Joe Johnson: 15.3 PPG, .48.0 TS%


Marvin Williams: 5.8 PPG, .33.7 TS%


The dropoff from regular season averages: -7.6 PPG, -18.1 TS%

[coastalmarker99]

Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd proved that a good team wasn't needed to win the East the majority of that decade, so Lebron's cast in 2007 was more than sufficient - a top defense along with a couple all-star or all-defensive teammates and the future COY is more than enough (#3 defense + Zydrunas, Hughes, Mike Brown)..

Furthermore, we know for a fact that Lebron can't carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs because he failed 3 times in 04', 05', and 19'!!!!!!!!!!






Lebron had better-ranked defenses those years than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options.. That's why they were the league favorite both years but lost.

So Lebron is the only player ever that lost in back-to-back years with 60-win, 1 seeds... :facepalm:.. then he lost as the favorite in 2011 so everyone made him the underdog in 2012.. that's f'ing embarassing.


Vs Orlando:

Against the #1 defence in the league, LeBron averaged 39-8-8, .59.1 TS%.


The Cavs had a 112.9 O rating when he was on the court.


That is a +11.0 offense relative to Orlando’s regular-season D rating.


That would be a historic offensive playoff performance.


In 2 of Cleveland’s losses, LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.


That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.



In the Orlando series, LeBron had 3 teammates who averaged 10+ PPG.

But they combined for a .50.5 TS%.

In the playoffs, LeBron had a 37.4 PER and the 2nd best PER on his team had a 14.5 PER.

That’s a 22.9 PER gap which is the highest in NBA history between the #1 and #2 guy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Peak play will reveal their maximum scoring capability - Pippen's was only 22 ppg, while Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, AD, Curry, Kareem, Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Parker was high-20's or 30's - they were elite 1st option or MVP-caliber (fmvp), while pippen was a 2nd option and not mvp caliber (0/6 in fmvp).

So you're gonna ignore what happened because of Kobe's averages....YEARS later? :oldlol:

That doesn't make any sense. Then again most of your posts dont. What Kobe averaged in 2006 has no bearing on 2000, where Shaq carried Kobe. Once again: Shaq had much better raw numbers, impact numbers, and scored 22 more points than Kobe in the finals. Shaq's postseason clutch play was also as good or better.

Quit stalling and add Shaq to your OP lol

[RRR3]

So you're gonna ignore what happened because of Kobe's averages....YEARS later? :oldlol:

That doesn't make any sense. Then again most of your posts dont. What Kobe averaged in 2006 has no bearing on 2000, where Shaq carried Kobe. Once again: Shaq had much better raw numbers, impact numbers, and scored 22 more points than Kobe in the finals. Shaq's postseason clutch play was also as good or better.

Quit stalling and add Shaq to your OP lol
Snivelball is completely inept when he can’t hide behind Jordan lmao. He legit has no arguments just nonsense based on how hard Kobe made his dick

[3ba11]

So you're gonna ignore what happened because of Kobe's averages....YEARS later? :oldlol:

That doesn't make any sense. Then again most of your posts dont. What Kobe averaged in 2006 has no bearing on 2000, where Shaq carried Kobe. Once again: Shaq had much better raw numbers, impact numbers, and scored 22 more points than Kobe in the finals. Shaq's postseason clutch play was also as good or better.

Quit stalling and add Shaq to your OP lol


Most people would consider Kobe an elite 1st option in 2000 regardless of his Finals stats, due to his unprecedented repertoire .. He still wasn't at his prime usage numbers and was deferring a ton.. But Kobe was sick and could go off. He also dominated Pippen in the WCF

Kobe simply wasn't a 2nd option

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Snivelball is completely inept when he can’t hide behind Jordan lmao. He legit has no arguments just nonsense based on how hard Kobe made his dick

Legit some of the WORST arguments I've read....

Shoutout to Coastal though. He's making 3ball sweat bullets :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Legit some of the WORST arguments I've read....

Shoutout to Coastal though. He's making 3ball sweat bullets :oldlol:
He’s got to be furious with himself for revealing he’s a Kobe stan and not a MJ guy. Easy to hide behind MJ when you’re dissing LeBron. Kobe? Lol

[coastalmarker99]

Most of 3 Ball's arguments about the fact that Lebron had better-ranked defences in 2009 and 2010 than the 1st three-peat Bulls and still lost.


Therefore meaning that he is a failure is dumb.


Here are Lebron's Defensive stats for his position in 2009


17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league) (13.2 points per 36 minutes)

41.2 FG% allowed (1st)

15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)

16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)

1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)

+2.8 Defensive RAPM [2nd among qualifying perimeter players (Artest)


Lebron also had 6.5 Defensive win shares (#2 in the league, only SF with more in a season are Pippen and Havlicek)



Top 5 in on-court defensive rating in 2009 (min. 2000 MP):

1. West: 99.2

2. LeBron 100.6

3. Odom 101.4

4. Turkoglu 101.4

5. Howard 101.8



Every stat shows us that Lebron was clearly the main reason why those Cavs teams were so good on defence.


From 08-10, LeBron missed 14 games. Here are the results on defence.


Defence:

On court: 100.6 D rating (-7.7 relative to league average)

Off-court: 108.8 D rating (+0.5 rel to LA)

Difference: -8.2


The Cavs went from #1 D in the league with LeBron on the court to the equivalent of 18th when he missed games.

[RRR3]

Most of 3 Ball's arguments about the fact that Lebron had better-ranked defences in 2009 and 2010 than the 1st three-peat Bulls and still lost.


Therefore meaning that he is a failure is dumb.


Here are Lebron's Defensive stats for his position in 2009


17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league) (13.2 points per 36 minutes)

41.2 FG% allowed (1st)

15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)

16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)

1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)

+2.8 Defensive RAPM [2nd among qualifying perimeter players (Artest)


Lebron also had 6.5 Defensive win shares (#2 in the league, only SF with more in a season are Pippen and Havlicek)
He actually thinks LeBron leading those bums to 66 wins is a negative lmao

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most people would consider Kobe an elite 1st option in 2000 regardless of his Finals stats, due to his unprecedented repertoire .. He still wasn't at his prime usage numbers and was deferring a ton.. But Kobe was sick and could go off. He also dominated Pippen in the WCF

Kobe simply wasn't a 2nd option

Dawg... Whatever Kobe was that year, he got carried by Shaq. By most objective measures those are the facts.

One series in the middle of a overtime doesn't change that.

[RRR3]

Dawg... Whatever Kobe was that year, he got carried by Shaq. By most objective measures those are the facts.

One series in the middle of a overtime doesn't change that.
Mario Chalmers carried LeBron in 2012 by that “logic” (he took over the pivotal game 4 of the finals!) News flash: number one options need their supporting players to step up and help win games for them sometimes, that’s why it’s a team sport.

[coastalmarker99]

Dawg... Whatever Kobe was that year, he got carried by Shaq. By most objective measures those are the facts.

One series in the middle of a overtime doesn't change that.

If you watch the 2000 WCF game seven.


Shaq is getting swarmed every time he touches the ball by 2 or 3 Portland players.



Hell Portland decided to double Shaq even when he didn't have the Ball in that game seven that shows you how good Shaq was in 2000.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mario Chalmers carried LeBron in 2012 by that “logic” (he took over the pivotal game 4 of the finals!) News flash: number one options need their supporting players to step up and help win games for them sometimes, that’s why it’s a team sport.

Bingo :applause:

We'll hear chapter and verse about Jalen injuring Kobe. Which in their minds gives 'baillout guy' an excuse. Yeah, no. :lol That actually gives the carryjob more validity.

[coastalmarker99]

Dawg... Whatever Kobe was that year, he got carried by Shaq. By most objective measures those are the facts.

One series in the middle of a overtime doesn't change that.

How the Blazers Defended Shaq in game seven of the 2000 WCF.


Touches in the halfcourt (within 15 feet of the basket for Shaq, inside 3 point line for Kobe):


Shaq: 40 touches, 36 doubles (90%), 2 triples (2 assists on them), 7 assists/hockey assists, 12 fouls drawn (2 off-ball)


Kobe had 36 touches, 14 double teams, 2 triples, 5 assists/hockey assists, 6 fouls drawn (1 in backcourt, 1 garbage time intentional foul)


How the Blazers Defended Shaq:

As you can tell by the numbers above, the Blazers literally doubled Shaq every time he touched it.


The only times he didn't get doubled was when he made a quick move on Sabonis that didn't allow the Blazers the time to double him.


Once the pass went in, the Blazers immediately went to double Shaq.


They clearly made it their priority to stop Shaq at all costs. Most of the doubles either came from Smith, Sheed or Pippen.


The Blazers even doubled from the Lakers 3 point shooters and sometimes Kobe.


One possession, Pippen doubled down off of Kobe, and Shaq hit Kobe for the open 3.


I've never seen a defence give a man this much attention before besides Wilt

I've watched MJ, Kareem, Hakeem play, but none of them ever besides Wilt faced a comparable amount of defenders that Shaq did.


In the 1st quarter, Shaq drew 2 quick fouls on Sabonis, then Grant came in and drew 2 fouls. So the Blazers were forced to use young Jermaine O'Neal to guard Shaq.



How the Blazers Defended Kobe:

In the first half of the 1st and 3rd quarter, the Blazers used Damon Stoudamire to guard Kobe.


Stoudamire is listed at 5' 10, 170 lbs.

A man that is 8 inches shorter, and 30-40 lbs lighter was guarding Kobe for ~1 whole quarter.


No offence, but the Raptors would have never dared to have Damon Stoudamire guarding MJ for a quarter.


Kobe made a few plays on him and had a few assists from the doubles, but the lack of respect shows what the Blazers thought of Kobe.

For the other 3 quarters of the time, Smith/Wells guarded Kobe some, but Pippen guarded Kobe for around ~2 quarters worth of basketball.


Pippen did a decent job but Kobe more than held his own.

When Stoudamire guarded Kobe, they sent doubles on post-up situations.


When Pippen/Smith guarded him, they doubled when he drove to the basket.

[Hey Yo]

Most people would consider Kobe an elite 1st option in 2000 regardless of his Finals stats, due to his unprecedented repertoire .. He still wasn't at his prime usage numbers and was deferring a ton.. But Kobe was sick and could go off. He also dominated Pippen in the WCF

Kobe simply wasn't a 2nd option

Shot a combined 12-47 in games 5 & 6 of the 2000 Finals.... that's deferring a lot?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://c.tenor.com/cJy8Ub-Oj3QAAAAM/applause-applaud.gif

Coastal with absolute bangers

[coastalmarker99]

Most people would consider Kobe an elite 1st option in 2000 regardless of his Finals stats, due to his unprecedented repertoire .. He still wasn't at his prime usage numbers and was deferring a ton.. But Kobe was sick and could go off. He also dominated Pippen in the WCF

Kobe simply wasn't a 2nd option



You are overstating 2000 Kobe in an attempt to prop up and make Shaq look worse.


There have been a number of championship teams since the 1990s with comparable or better second options, and all of these teams had more offensive talent such as better 3rd guys and better shooters.



For example, the 1990's Bulls, '08 Celtics, '95 Rockets, '12 Heat and '09/'10 Lakers all had second options who were at least a similar calibre player, or in some cases, better.


And then there's a team like the '05 Spurs.

2000 Kobe was a better player than '05 Manu, but Manu arguably had the better playoff run.

Kobe averaged 21/5/4, 44 FG%, 47 eFG%, 52 TS%


While Manu averaged 21/6/4, 51 FG%, 58 eFG% and 65 TS%.

[3ba11]

Vs Orlando:

Against the #1 defence in the league, LeBron averaged 39-8-8, .59.1 TS%.


The Cavs had a 112.9 O rating when he was on the court.


That is a +11.0 offense relative to Orlando’s regular-season D rating.


That would be a historic offensive playoff performance.


In 2 of Cleveland’s losses, LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.


That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.



In the Orlando series, LeBron had 3 teammates who averaged 10+ PPG.

But they combined for a .50.5 TS%.

In the playoffs, LeBron had a 37.4 PER and the 2nd best PER on his team had a 14.5 PER.

That’s a 22.9 PER gap which is the highest in NBA history between the #1 and #2 guy.


The 09' Cavs were massive favorites against the Magic - yet Lebron lost as the favorite to 1-star teams with 1 seeds (09') and super-teams (11') - that's nowhere near goat.. it's woat

Ultimately, the Magic won because a decent ball movement team can expect to get hot against ball-dominance.. Ball-dominance doesn't wear down defenses, leaving opponents more capacity for offense.. See the 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals or 18 Finals for more examples of ball movement teams getting hot against ball-dominance.

Otoh, zippy ball movement wore down the Cavs, who underperformed offensively.. The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.. but unfortunately, bron-ball reduces teammates, and therefore always needs more help, like a Ponzi scheme.

[StrongLurk]

3ball being a kobe stan but hiding behind MJ to talk shit about Lebron is the funniest exposure I've ever seen on ISH.

I think I'll finally leave ISH because ISH has been a dumpster fire for years, but it's peaking again with this reveal.

Wow, more than a decade and probably a million internet posts from a guy who is major Kobe stan, but can't handle the reality of Lebron surpassing his idol...it's so ridiculous.

[coastalmarker99]

The 09' Cavs were massive favorites against the Magic - but only Lebron butchers it and loses as the favorite to 1-star teams, with both 1 seeds (09') or super-teams (11').

But the Magic won because a decent ball movement team can expect to get hot against ball-dominance.. Ball-dominance doesn't wear down defenses, leaving opponents more capacity for offense.. See the 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals or 18 Finals for more examples of ball movement teams getting hot against ball-dominance.

Otoh, zippy ball movement wore down the Cavs, who underperformed offensively.. The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.. but unfortunately, bron-ball reduces teammates, and therefore always needs more help, like a Ponzi scheme.



The Magic won that series in 2009 vs the Cavs because they took advantage of the minutes that Lebron was on the bench.


They also won that series because the Cavs Bigman had no answer for Dwight.

Unlike the Lakers who could throw capable Bigman in Gasol and Bynum on him in the finals.




Also To say that the Cavs underperformed offensively in that series is ****ing dumb.



The Cavs had a 112.9 O rating when Lebron was on the court.

That is a +11.0 offense relative to Orlando’s regular-season D rating.

That would be a historic offensive playoff performance.

In 2 of Cleveland’s losses, LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.

That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.

[3ba11]

The Magic won that series in 2009 vs the Cavs because they took advantage of the minutes that Lebron was on the bench.


They also won that series because the Cavs Bigman had no answer for Dwight.

Unlike the Lakers who could throw capable Bigman in Gasol and Bynum on him in the finals.




Also To say that the Cavs underperformed offensively in that series is ****ing dumb.



The Cavs had a 112.9 O rating when Lebron was on the court.

That is a +11.0 offense relative to Orlando’s regular-season D rating.

That would be a historic offensive playoff performance.

In 2 of Cleveland’s losses, LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.

That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.


Zydrunas is better than any center Jordan ever had, while Dwight is inferior to the guys Jordan beat (Shaq, Ewing).

So the excuse that "we couldn't stop Dwight" is ridiculous.

The Cavs simply had the better team but lost as a historic favorite because Lebron couldn't get the maximum out of his team.

Lebron spearheaded the Cavs collapse on defense by skirting his defensive duties - he guarded a little role player guard and avoided the heart of their team (Hedo).. Then his ball-dominance allowed the Magic defense to rest and be fresh for offense.. If he's so smart then why use the inferior strategy?

[coastalmarker99]

Zydrunas is better than any center Jordan ever had, while Dwight is inferior to the guys Jordan beat (Shaq, Ewing).

So the excuse that "we couldn't stop Dwight" is ridiculous.

The Cavs simply had the better team but lost as a historic favorite because Lebron couldn't get the maximum out of his team.

Lebron spearheaded the Cavs collapse on defense by skirting his defensive duties - he guarded a little role player guard and avoided the heart of their team (Hedo).. Then his ball-dominance allowed the Magic defense to rest and be fresh for offense.. If he's so smart then why use the inferior strategy?


The Cavs didn't collapse on defence by Lebron skirting his defensive duties,


They had trouble against the Magic every time because they couldn't guard them.

Cleveland's guards were not big enough to compete against Alston (there it was OK) and Pietrus.

Then you had Turkoglu at SF (that was ok for LBJ to defend but against the other guys he was just too big) and then Lewis as a PF.


Ben Wallace was old and recovering from a broken leg so he couldn't keep up with Lewis in the perimeter, much less Zydrunas.

Cavs never solved that, since LBJ defending the PF would cause big trouble with Turkoglu.

Then they had Dwight who would put Ben Wallace in foul trouble quickly or just smash Z, Ilgauskas or JJ Hickson.

There was just no way for the Cavs to defend against them.

[coastalmarker99]

The Cavs Point differential without LeBron by year:

2004: -4.8


2005: -6.7


2006: -6.3

2007: -2.6

2008: -8.5

2009: -6.2

2010: -5.3


Those Cavs teams outside of Lebron weren’t good at all.

[RRR3]

3ball being a kobe stan but hiding behind MJ to talk shit about Lebron is the funniest exposure I've ever seen on ISH.

I think I'll finally leave ISH because ISH has been a dumpster fire for years, but it's peaking again with this reveal.

Wow, more than a decade and probably a million internet posts from a guy who is major Kobe stan, but can't handle the reality of Lebron surpassing his idol...it's so ridiculous.
It’s completely defanged him. His “arguments” for Kobe are laughable at best.

[3ba11]

The Cavs Point differential without LeBron by year:

2004: -4.8


2005: -6.7


2006: -6.3

2007: -2.6

2008: -8.5

2009: -6.2

2010: -5.3


Those Cavs teams outside of Lebron weren’t good at all.


Those Cavs had the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 all-defender and the future COY

MJ won 6 titles with less

[RRR3]

Those Cavs had the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 all-defender and the future COY

MJ won 6 titles with less
Nope, no running back to your MJ argument security blanket, lil guy. This is a Kobe vs. LeBron argument. Thanks for admitting once again you can’t make good arguments for Kobe over LeBron.


You’ve been exposed as a Kobetard. The MJ stuff doesn’t work anymore.

[3ba11]

Nope, no running back to your MJ argument security blanket, lil guy. This is a Kobe vs. LeBron argument. Thanks for admitting once again you can’t make good arguments for Kobe over LeBron.


You’ve been exposed as a Kobetard. The MJ stuff doesn’t work anymore.


Help needed to make Playoffs or 2nd Round


Lebron - the East all-star center.. 22/6/5 all-defender.. Future COY

Jordan - literally nothing (an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer

[ShawkFactory]

Help needed to make Playoffs or 2nd Round


Lebron - the East all-star center.. 22/6/5 all-defender.. Future COY

Jordan - literally nothing (an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer

Future COY is definitely my favorite one.

[coastalmarker99]

Future COY is definitely my favorite one.

Same here plus the East All-star center as well.

[RRR3]

Help needed to make Playoffs or 2nd Round


Lebron - the East all-star center.. 22/6/5 all-defender.. Future COY

Jordan - literally nothing (an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer
You literally can’t insult LeBron unless you use MJ. You’re terrified of actually analyzing Kobe’s career cuz you know it doesn’t measure up. MJ is not part of this argument, stop using him as a shield.

[RRR3]

Snivelball when LeBron’s superiority to Kobe is brought up: “uh uh uh MJ! MJ! MJ!”

Pathetic :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball being a kobe stan but hiding behind MJ to talk shit about Lebron is the funniest exposure I've ever seen on ISH.

I think I'll finally leave ISH because ISH has been a dumpster fire for years, but it's peaking again with this reveal.

Wow, more than a decade and probably a million internet posts from a guy who is major Kobe stan, but can't handle the reality of Lebron surpassing his idol...it's so ridiculous.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6c5556023f61ea91dba059561860a504/d4f86014e15bc7dd-88/s500x750/253a03ebdbe432094b47402c4bf3c290bffe997c.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/9f81e981b41fcce63dd6ebfd24bca96d/d4f86014e15bc7dd-a5/s500x750/7fae4940ae4e88eac5cd838ea5572cef03ebba8f.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/a5aca4d37bb4008b54cb3473dc958159/d4f86014e15bc7dd-6f/s500x750/42cf3a79fa4e9c592daecad3dac53b13a0a42edd.gifv

Not a pretty sight, my man.

[coastalmarker99]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6c5556023f61ea91dba059561860a504/d4f86014e15bc7dd-88/s500x750/253a03ebdbe432094b47402c4bf3c290bffe997c.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/9f81e981b41fcce63dd6ebfd24bca96d/d4f86014e15bc7dd-a5/s500x750/7fae4940ae4e88eac5cd838ea5572cef03ebba8f.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/a5aca4d37bb4008b54cb3473dc958159/d4f86014e15bc7dd-6f/s500x750/42cf3a79fa4e9c592daecad3dac53b13a0a42edd.gifv

Not a pretty sight, my man.

:roll:

:bowdown:

[3ba11]

Dawg... Whatever Kobe was that year, he got carried by Shaq. By most objective measures those are the facts.

One series in the middle of a overtime doesn't change that.


Kobe was an elite 1st option that was playing 2nd option for Shaq in 2000, just like every championship team in history, aka every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - these are the only guys to win with true 2nd options and only MJ/Kobe won more than once with them (thread title)..

^^^ Btw, thread cliffs.. :sleeping

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe was an elite 1st option that was playing 2nd option for Shaq in 2000, just like every championship team in history, aka every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - these are the only guys to win with true 2nd options and only MJ/Kobe won more than once with them (thread title)..

^^^ Btw, thread cliffs.. :sleeping


:hammerhead:

[MadDog]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6c5556023f61ea91dba059561860a504/d4f86014e15bc7dd-88/s500x750/253a03ebdbe432094b47402c4bf3c290bffe997c.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/9f81e981b41fcce63dd6ebfd24bca96d/d4f86014e15bc7dd-a5/s500x750/7fae4940ae4e88eac5cd838ea5572cef03ebba8f.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/a5aca4d37bb4008b54cb3473dc958159/d4f86014e15bc7dd-6f/s500x750/42cf3a79fa4e9c592daecad3dac53b13a0a42edd.gifv

Not a pretty sight, my man.

Lmao. Predator was a badass movie though!

[RRR3]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6c5556023f61ea91dba059561860a504/d4f86014e15bc7dd-88/s500x750/253a03ebdbe432094b47402c4bf3c290bffe997c.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/9f81e981b41fcce63dd6ebfd24bca96d/d4f86014e15bc7dd-a5/s500x750/7fae4940ae4e88eac5cd838ea5572cef03ebba8f.gifv


https://64.media.tumblr.com/a5aca4d37bb4008b54cb3473dc958159/d4f86014e15bc7dd-6f/s500x750/42cf3a79fa4e9c592daecad3dac53b13a0a42edd.gifv

Not a pretty sight, my man.
:roll: