Was Manu Gibobili better then Jerry West?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In 2004 and 2005, Manu Ginobili might have the most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball.

- in 2004 he led his shithole country to the gold medal despite playing with a bunch of plumbers. This was the last time a non America team won gold.

- in 2005 he led the entire playoffs in VORP, was robbed out of finals MVP and had a finals game 7 performance of 14.1 BPM.

So the main differences I see is Manu can overcome the odds (beating USA) and jerry west can never overcome the odds (beating russell). Also manu got screwed out of a 2005 finals MVP when he carried his team to the victory, while jerry west gets handed a finals MVP despite his team losing.

[SouBeachTalents]

No. They were both better than Kawhi though

[Gohan]

No. They were both better than Kawhi though

As much as i dislike hbk…. Ginobeeli wasnt better than kawhit

[Axe]

Kawhi leonard gets handed a finals MVP in 2014 despite posting role player numbers.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi leonard gets handed a finals MVP in 2014 despite posting role player numbers.

24PPG on 69% FG in 3 straight wins is pure dominance.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

As much as i dislike hbk…. Ginobeeli wasnt better than kawhit

he wasn't that great but i would confidently call Manu the 3rd greatest shooting to ever lace them up, only jordan and kobe were better.

He was better then Iverson by far, and he was slightly better then Wade\Harden\West.

[Axe]

24PPG on 69% FG in 3 straight wins is pure dominance.
Really? How many without load management?

[HoopsNY]

You've really lost it.

[Gohan]

he wasn't that great but i would confidently call Manu the 3rd greatest shooting to ever lace them up, only jordan and kobe were better.

He was better then Iverson by far, and he was slightly better then Wade\Harden\West.

Iverson is better than kawhit and ginobeeli put together. Iverson is a top 10 player of all time give him his damn respect

[SaintzFury13]

In 2004 and 2005, Manu Ginobili might have the most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball.

- in 2004 he led his shithole country to the gold medal despite playing with a bunch of plumbers. This was the last time a non America team won gold.

- in 2005 he led the entire playoffs in VORP, was robbed out of finals MVP and had a finals game 7 performance of 14.1 BPM.

So the main differences I see is Manu can overcome the odds (beating USA) and jerry west can never overcome the odds (beating russell). Also manu got screwed out of a 2005 finals MVP when he carried his team to the victory, while jerry west gets handed a finals MVP despite his team losing.

Are you retarded?

[RRR3]

Are you retarded?
Yes he is.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Really? How many without load management?

He sent Lebron packing to Cleveland, just like he sent Durant packing to Brooklyn.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Are you retarded?

2005 he led the playoff in offensive win shares and VORP, duncan was a role player like Gobert, parker wasn't in his prime yet.

2004 he led a rat hole country over usa and won gold medal.

That's back to back years of dominating basketball more then Jerry West or Wade ever did.

[Xiao Yao You]

Iverson is better than kawhit and ginobeeli put together. Iverson is a top 10 player of all time give him his damn respect

:roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Iverson is better than kawhit and ginobeeli put together. Iverson is a top 10 player of all time give him his damn respect

top 10 all time hahahaha only slam magazine would tell you something like that.


Iverson is roughly top 75

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yes he is.

That Kidd/terry/Dirk team that embarrassed LeBron in 2011.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-first-round-spurs-vs-mavericks.html

Look who led the team in scoring and beat them the year prior.

[Axe]

He sent Lebron packing to Cleveland, just like he sent Durant packing to Brooklyn.
He also blew a 3-1 lead in the semifinals last year despite being heavily favored against 7'1 brian windhorst.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He also blew a 3-1 lead in the semifinals last year despite being heavily favored against 7'1 brian windhorst.

Butler also easily beat giannis. That was asterisk ball with no fans and on YMCA hoops hahahhaha

[Axe]

Butler also easily beat giannis. That was asterisk ball with no fans and on YMCA hoops hahahhaha
Pandemic p just led the flippers to two wins without your hero in the wcf this year. It seems they do not need him in order to win some games lmao.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pandemic p just led the flippers to two wins without your hero in the wcf this year. It seems they do not need him in order to win some games lmao.

Giannis team closed out a east finals without him.

Clippers in game 6 of west finals got blown out by 35 points hahhahaha

[SATAN]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SDJFjy0yOME/maxresdefault.jpg

[Axe]

Giannis team closed out a east finals without him.

Clippers in game 6 of west finals got blown out by 35 points hahhahaha
You do realize the clippers did the same thing in the semifinals against the jazz? They won games 5 and 6 without their first option. You really are a dimwit. :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You do realize the clippers did the same thing in the semifinals against the jazz? They won games 5 and 6 without their first option. You really are a dimwit. :oldlol:

but conley wasn't playing in 1 of those games. so it's like they won 1 game vs utah and 2 vs suns, that's still just 1 more than bucks did without giannis.

Also did you like getting smacked around by 35 points in game 6 on your home court in game 6 vs suns? you looked like 2008-2011 spurs before kawhi had to come and take your old asses out of the 1st round hahahaha

[Axe]

but conley wasn't playing in 1 of those games. so it's like they won 1 game vs utah and 2 vs suns, that's still just 1 more than bucks did without giannis.

Also did you like getting smacked around by 35 points in game 6 on your home court in game 6 vs suns? you looked like 2008-2011 spurs before kawhi had to come and take your old asses out of the 1st round hahahaha
Hurr durr hurr. You should do well to remember that your hero has been on playoff teams for quite sometime now. And no, he wouldn't be able to perform at wonderful levels in the playoffs without having to load manage first in the rs.

[nayte]

Eh I'm starting to doubt whether he is a kwahi stan. To over the top. Probs like 3ball a kobe or lebron stan doing work

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Eh I'm starting to doubt whether he is a kwahi stan. To over the top. Probs like 3ball a kobe or lebron stan doing work

Kawhi and Manu were the best players on the 2014 spurs, they had an insane net rating when playing together and it was #1 on the team for 2 man lineups. It was like Jordan and Pippen 2.0 pretty much (Kawhi being Jordan and Manu as pippen). People just like to credit parker and Duncan because they take an extra couple shots I guess?

More on Manu: Manu there is fine. If Isiah Thomas could headline a class, then Manu certainly could as well. Both players were best player on two different championship teams (Manu in 2005\07 and Isiah in 80\90).

MVP voting: Manu has three seasons in top 11 voting

Isiah has five seasons in top 11 voting

Playoff advanced stats: Manu led the playoffs in VORP and offensive win shares in 2005
Isiah only led playoffs in defensive win shares one season in 1988

Also Manu is ahead on career playoff VORP over Barkley, Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, Paul Pierce, Reggie Miller.

https://www.basketball-reference.com..._career_p.html


and i didn't even bring up the greatest non NBA basketball accomplishment in the last 100 years when he won gold for non america team in 2004.

Manu definitely deserves to headline it and was a better player then guys who are headlining it this year like Webber\Pierce.

3rd most talented SG ever behind Jordan\Kobe.

[Axe]

Kawhit is the reason why the spurs lost in the 2013 finals. :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

You've really lost it.

This suggests he had something to lose. Dude is a clown.

[nayte]

I like kwahi and manu more them most it seems ..still

[Phoenix]

top 10 all time hahahaha only slam magazine would tell you something like that.


Iverson is roughly top 75

vorp.

[Phoenix]

Eh I'm starting to doubt whether he is a kwahi stan. To over the top. Probs like 3ball a kobe or lebron stan doing work

Yeah, beginning to think hes a Kawhi hater so just making dumb proclamation after dumb proclamation to draw heat. We have some weird posters here doing shit like that.3ball despises MJ, for one.

[nayte]

Glad others can see it. I think most people know kwahis worth and judge it reasonably same with manu

[nayte]

39% healthier shits

[Gohan]

top 10 all time hahahaha only slam magazine would tell you something like that.


Iverson is roughly top 75

Are we gonna pretend like slam aint the end all be all?

[nayte]

Slam is definitely better then gohans efforts after cell

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Glad others can see it. I think most people know kwahis worth and judge it reasonably same with manu

they both love to destroy lebron hahaahah like in 2014

spurs best 2 man lineups 2014 playoffs: Kawhi Jordan and Manu Pippen were at +21.3

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014/lineups/

Like i said, manu ain't no kawhi because Kawhi's 2019 playoff run was GOAT level.

but i think you can put manu in the top 25-30 all time and the 3rd best SG behind Jordan\Kobe.

[Sportal]

Eh I'm starting to doubt whether he is a kwahi stan. To over the top. Probs like 3ball a kobe or lebron stan doing work

He just said Manu was better than Wade... Maybe a LeBron stan..? Putting Wade down... idk chief.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Are we gonna pretend like slam aint the end all be all?

duncan was trash in TS and efficiently in the 2005 finals because he didn't know how to score on Rasheed and was intimidated by Ben Wallace. So duncan needed a hyper efficient player like Manu. You replace Manu with a poor efficient player like Iverson and spurs lose that finals in 2005.

Jordan
Kobe
Manu
Wade
Harden

are the clear cut top 5 for me

then guys like West, Drexler, Ray Allen, Iverson are after thoughts

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He just said Manu was better than Wade... Maybe a LeBron stan..? Putting Wade down... idk chief.

well i put wade right where Lebron is at....FOURTH PLACE hahhaaha my GOAT RANKS:

SF:

1) Kawhi
2) Bird
3) Durant
4) Lebron
5) Scottie Pippen

SG:

1) Jordan
2) Kobe
3) Manu
4) Wade
5) Harden

[nayte]

Manus efforts against USA were some of the best ever.
Being Aussie I value the Olympics a lot but he admitted it wasn't the best they could send so I take it with a grain of salt
I don't think kwahi can take wade yet for 3rd best sg but he has time

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manus efforts against USA were some of the best ever.
Being Aussie I value the Olympics a lot but he admitted it wasn't the best they could send so I take it with a grain of salt
I don't think kwahi can take wade yet for 3rd best sg but he has time

kawhi is a SF but he already has more all nba 1st team selections than Wade and more finals MVPS

[nayte]

My bad I considered him as sg while George was the sf

[Sportal]

well i put wade right where Lebron is at....FOURTH PLACE hahhaaha my GOAT RANKS:

SF:

1) Kawhi
2) Bird
3) Durant
4) Lebron
5) Scottie Pippen

SG:

1) Jordan
2) Kobe
3) Manu
4) Wade
5) Harden

So these drugs you are taking... What are they precisely?

[Gohan]

well i put wade right where Lebron is at....FOURTH PLACE hahhaaha my GOAT RANKS:

SF:

1) Kawhi
2) Bird
3) Durant
4) Lebron
5) Scottie Pippen

SG:

1) Jordan
2) Kobe
3) Manu
4) Wade
5) Harden

I dont care what you say manu aint better than harden. I dont care if manu won 12 chips

[Gohan]

Slam is definitely better then gohans efforts after cell

I actually got a girl after cell something you struggle to do and videl be busting it wide for a player

[nayte]

I actually got a girl after cell something you struggle to do and videl be busting it wide for a player

I have 2 sons they both are a disappointment. Both needed me to take out a majin buu

[000]

Yeah, Gibobili was a beast

[Phoenix]

kawhi is a SF but he already has more all nba 1st team selections than Wade and more finals MVPS

Comparing all-NBA selections for players from two different positions with primes a good decade apart. But you're an idiot, so that's a perfectly reasonable point in your mind to make.

[rmt]

Kawhit is the reason why the spurs lost in the 2013 finals. :oldlol:

Both Kawhi and Manu missed crucial free throws at end of game.

[rmt]

I dont care what you say manu aint better than harden. I dont care if manu won 12 chips

He thinks efficiency at a career 24.5 minutes average per game could match Harden at 10 minutes more per game or earn him a MVP - same with Kawhi and his load management.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Both Kawhi and Manu missed crucial free throws at end of game.


https://youtu.be/J3NvhxKicJY

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Comparing all-NBA selections for players from two different positions with primes a good decade apart. But you're an idiot, so that's a perfectly reasonable point in your mind to make.

more dominant in his own era despite his era being much more stacked, sounds like the better player to me.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He thinks efficiency at a career 24.5 minutes average per game could match Harden at 10 minutes more per game or earn him a MVP - same with Kawhi and his load management.

Harden's best playoff run was in 2018 when he played 36 minutes per game.

Manu in 2005 played 33 minutes a game.

I'm not going to make a big fuss about 3 minutes hahahaha

[Bronbron23]

In 2004 and 2005, Manu Ginobili might have the most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball.

- in 2004 he led his shithole country to the gold medal despite playing with a bunch of plumbers. This was the last time a non America team won gold.

- in 2005 he led the entire playoffs in VORP, was robbed out of finals MVP and had a finals game 7 performance of 14.1 BPM.

So the main differences I see is Manu can overcome the odds (beating USA) and jerry west can never overcome the odds (beating russell). Also manu got screwed out of a 2005 finals MVP when he carried his team to the victory, while jerry west gets handed a finals MVP despite his team losing.

Stopped reading at "most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball"

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Stopped reading at "most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball"

He accomplished the two biggest things you can possibly do in basketball.

- win a gold medal on a non american team

- be the VORP leader\ offensive win share leader aka best player on a title team


winning a gold medal with Argentina is a way bigger accomplishment then playing with the best american players and winning by 40 points every night like the dream team did.

[RogueBorg]

In 2004 and 2005, Manu Ginobili might have the most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball.

- in 2004 he led his shithole country to the gold medal despite playing with a bunch of plumbers. This was the last time a non America team won gold.

- in 2005 he led the entire playoffs in VORP, was robbed out of finals MVP and had a finals game 7 performance of 14.1 BPM.

So the main differences I see is Manu can overcome the odds (beating USA) and jerry west can never overcome the odds (beating russell). Also manu got screwed out of a 2005 finals MVP when he carried his team to the victory, while jerry west gets handed a finals MVP despite his team losing.

Manu was a 2x All-Star, never made All-NBA, never made All-Defensive and you're legit asking if he's better than a 14x All-Star, 12x All-NBA, 5x All-Defensive scoring champion? Really?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu was a 2x All-Star, never made All-NBA, never made All-Defensive and you're legit asking if he's better than a 14x All-Star, 12x All-NBA, 5x All-Defensive scoring champion? Really?

Yao Ming got all stars when he stayed him and did nothing. That's a popularity contest.

Manu had a higher peak then jerry west because west never had a playoff run like 2005 Manu. West was always choking and losing, he was never the best player on a title team

Top 11 mvp voting seasons Manu isn't that far off from a guy like Isiah Thomas. He just wasn't popular because Duncan was insanely boring and Duncan got most of the hype because he was a #1 draft pick.

[ShawkFactory]

Yao Ming got all stars when he stayed him and did nothing. That's a popularity contest.

Manu had a higher peak then jerry west because west never had a playoff run like 2005 Manu. West was always choking and losing, he was never the best player on a title team

Top 11 mvp voting seasons Manu isn't that far off from a guy like Isiah Thomas. He just wasn't popular because Duncan was insanely boring and Duncan got most of the hype because he was a #1 draft pick.

So you're comparing Yao Ming to Jerry West?

Stop talking about players you know nothing about. Yes, I believe Manu falls in that category for you.

[Overdrive]

In 2004 and 2005, Manu Ginobili might have the most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball.

- in 2004 he led his shithole country to the gold medal despite playing with a bunch of plumbers. This was the last time a non America team won gold.


Never knew Argentina wasn't in America.

[Bronbron23]

He accomplished the two biggest things you can possibly do in basketball.

- win a gold medal on a non american team

- be the VORP leader\ offensive win share leader aka best player on a title team


winning a gold medal with Argentina is a way bigger accomplishment then playing with the best american players and winning by 40 points every night like the dream team did.

These are just 2 things that u feel are the 2 biggest things. Most people look at nba chips, fmvp, mvp's, stats and accolades. The Olympics don't mean much tbh and vorp and win shares fall in the category of stats which do play a role but only a small one compared to other stats and the rest of the criteria.

I love manu man but he has no argument whatsoever.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Never knew Argentina wasn't in America.



Olympics counted them as a different country pretty much. Plumbers like nocioni on the team hahahaha

[HBK_Kliq_2]

These are just 2 things that u feel are the 2 biggest things. Most people look at nba chips, fmvp, mvp's, stats and accolades. The Olympics don't mean much tbh and vorp and win shares fall in the category of stats which do play a role but only a small one compared to other stats and the rest of the criteria.

I love manu man but he has no argument whatsoever.

NBA chips ok he was the best player on a 2005 title team and robbed of finals mvp when Duncan jacked up bricks the entire series.

He was the best player on two different title teams (2005 and 2007) like isiah thomas was

[RRR3]

Kilt getting abused left and right once again! He’s on the ropes! Taking repeated blows to the face!

[L.Kizzle]

He's not even the greatest 2 time All-Star.

[Phoenix]

more dominant in his own era despite his era being much more stacked, sounds like the better player to me.

Any version of 2005-2011 Wade does what Kawhit managed to do if Wade played for the Spurs, quit his way to the Raptors, then bounced to the Clips. Peak Wade was 30/8/5 without the same bitch rules that Kawhi plays under and gets jizzed on by a 7'1 Windhorst.

[Bronbron23]

NBA chips ok he was the best player on a 2005 title team and robbed of finals mvp when Duncan jacked up bricks the entire series.

He was the best player on two different title teams (2005 and 2007) like isiah thomas was

He wasn't the best either year. He was a bit better offensively in 05 but duncan was way better defensively and rebounding. Overall duncan had a bigger impact but manu was big in big moments. I wouldn't have thought it was crazy if manu got fmvp but duncan was deserving when you factor in his full impact.

2007 i don't know what your talking about. He was 17 on 40% fg in playoffs and 18 on 37% fg in the finals. Both duncan and parker were better

[ScottieQuitting]

Hell No

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He wasn't the best either year. He was a bit better offensively in 05 but duncan was way better defensively and rebounding. Overall duncan had a bigger impact but manu was big in big moments. I wouldn't have thought it was crazy if manu got fmvp but duncan was deserving when you factor in his full impact.

2007 i don't know what your talking about. He was 17 on 40% fg in playoffs and 18 on 37% fg in the finals. Both duncan and parker were better

2005 Manu beats Duncan in every stat you can think of from BPM, PER, VORP, win shares. Absolutely zero argument for duncan, he was terrible in the finals.

2007 finals they both averaged 18PPG but Manu's TS was like 7% better. Duncan wasn't guarding anybody special either, big z hahahahha

[SaintzFury13]

NBA chips ok he was the best player on a 2005 title team and robbed of finals mvp when Duncan jacked up bricks the entire series.

He was the best player on two different title teams (2005 and 2007) like isiah thomas was

Duncan wasn't "jacking up bricks". He was dealing with a front court featuring Rasheed and Ben Wallace. Pretty much anyone is going to struggle to score consistently against that.

[Overdrive]

Olympics counted them as a different country pretty much. Plumbers like nocioni on the team hahahaha

Yes, they are a different country than the US, no they not outside of America.

[ShawkFactory]

Duncan wasn't "jacking up bricks". He was dealing with a front court featuring Rasheed and Ben Wallace. Pretty much anyone is going to struggle to score consistently against that.

The kids understanding of basketball is so bad that it can’t be real.

[Loco 50]

but i think you can put manu in the top 25-30 all time and the 3rd best SG behind Jordan\Kobe.

Stop it. I'm one of, if not the biggest, Manu fan left on the site but these claims are just dumb.

Manu himself would laugh at you for writing this bs.

[Loco 50]

Stopped reading at "most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball"

Yeah, I should have known dude was trolling.

[Loco 50]

NBA chips ok he was the best player on a 2005 title team and robbed of finals mvp when Duncan jacked up bricks the entire series.

He was the best player on two different title teams (2005 and 2007) like isiah thomas was

Manu's matchup was the weakest link on that Piston's team in Rip Hamilton while Duncan was up against the Wallaces and McDyess. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out where the scoring was going to come from.

Same deal with Parker against Boobie Gibson, though that chip was going to be free regardless. Duncan only took over the scoring load when it was required.

Troll on topics you're actually familiar with.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu's matchup was the weakest link on that Piston's team in Rip Hamilton while Duncan was up against the Wallaces and McDyess. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out where the scoring was going to come from.

Same deal with Parker against Boobie Gibson, though that chip was going to be free regardless. Duncan only took over the scoring load when it was required.

Troll on topics you're actually familiar with.

4X all defense tayshawn prince was guarding him

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Any version of 2005-2011 Wade does what Kawhit managed to do if Wade played for the Spurs, quit his way to the Raptors, then bounced to the Clips. Peak Wade was 30/8/5 without the same bitch rules that Kawhi plays under and gets jizzed on by a 7'1 Windhorst.

More all NBA 1st teams and more finals mvps despite being just 30 years old. No argument for wade there.

Shaq was still demanding double teams by 2006 and was far better player then anybody on the raptors. The only guy getting doubled on raptors was kawhi

[tpols]

Manu's matchup was the weakest link on that Piston's team in Rip Hamilton while Duncan was up against the Wallaces and McDyess. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out where the scoring was going to come from.

Same deal with Parker against Boobie Gibson, though that chip was going to be free regardless. Duncan only took over the scoring load when it was required.

Troll on topics you're actually familiar with.

What's your excuse for manu baptizing Duncan in the 2004 Olympics?


https://youtu.be/SqDAyVDpB90

[RogueBorg]

https://theundefeated.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/nbalogo.jpg?w=1024

[Loco 50]

What's your excuse for manu baptizing Duncan in the 2004 Olympics?


https://youtu.be/SqDAyVDpB90

Manu was on a team that grew up hooping together so they had amazing chemistry and actually liked playing with each other.

Imagine assembling a team with Iverson and Starbury as lead guards and expecting an easy gold out of that. The olympics ain't Rucker. Surround any big with subpar 3 point shooting and they're going to struggle.

Stay struggling, Kobetard.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu was on a team that grew up hooping together so they had amazing chemistry and actually liked playing with each other.

Imagine assembling a team with Iverson and Starbury as lead guards and expecting an easy gold out of that. The olympics ain't Rucker. Surround any big with subpar 3 point shooting and they're going to struggle.

Stay struggling, Kobetard.

29 points on 9\13 shooting for manu, he carried them.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/boxscores/2004-08-27-argentina.html

chemistry shouldn't mean anything when your 3rd option scorer is some random midget named Alejandro Montecchia hahahaha probably similar player to that rat Facundo Campazzo that plays today

[Loco 50]

4X all defense tayshawn prince was guarding him
:oldlol: He did not. Sure he picked him up occasionally, but Prince was rotating assignments pretty heavily that series. When on Bowen he could cheat heavily by playing the passing lanes and sink into double coverage on Duncan and late in games he and Hunter covered Parker pretty often.

Rip spent the most time guarding Manu.

[ShawkFactory]

29 points on 9\13 shooting for manu, he carried them.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/boxscores/2004-08-27-argentina.html

chemistry shouldn't mean anything when your 3rd option scorer is some random midget named Alejandro Montecchia hahahaha probably similar player to that rat Facundo Campazzo that plays today

He wasn't their 3rd option scorer.

[Loco 50]

29 points on 9\13 shooting for manu, he carried them.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/boxscores/2004-08-27-argentina.html

chemistry shouldn't mean anything when your 3rd option scorer is some random midget named Alejandro Montecchia hahahaha probably similar player to that rat Facundo Campazzo that plays today

Hell yeah, Manu carried. But, he carried a very talented team with nba players: Scola, Oberto, Nocioni, Delfino and a few others. I've no recollection of who this Montecchia guy is supposed to be, but then neither do you. He definitely wasn't a 3rd option.

I was rooting for Argentina to dismantle the trash team that the U.S. assembled that year. Chemistry and smart ball movement beat isoball chucking and it was a beautiful thing.

[rmt]

NBA chips ok he was the best player on a 2005 title team and robbed of finals mvp when Duncan jacked up bricks the entire series.

He was the best player on two different title teams (2005 and 2007) like isiah thomas was

Time to break this out again - Pop, Parker, Larry Brown and Ben Wallace don't agree with you:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

[RRR3]

Hbk_Brick: DURRRRRRRRRRRRRR


Actual Spurs fans: you’re an idiot



HBK_Brick: DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://theundefeated.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/nbalogo.jpg?w=1024

Put a big nose on that logo and you got the superior shooting guard. Someone who was actually the best player on a championship team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Time to break this out again - Pop, Parker, Larry Brown and Ben Wallace don't agree with you:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

larry brown lost to Manu in the 2004 olympics and then lost to Manu in the 2005 finals. Duncan was around for both these events and played like a role player.

[tpols]

Manu was on a team that grew up hooping together so they had amazing chemistry and actually liked playing with each other.

Imagine assembling a team with Iverson and Starbury as lead guards and expecting an easy gold out of that. The olympics ain't Rucker. Surround any big with subpar 3 point shooting and they're going to struggle.

Stay struggling, Kobetard.



Argentina were huge underdogs. :oldlol:

One of the first plays in the video manu gets an AND1 on Duncan. He totally owned him outside the WWE aka the NBA. And I do agree with you about Iverson and Marbury but Duncan should've had some balls and commanded more shots.

We need to look at all leagues when evaluating players. There's too much corruption in any one arena to make a proper analysis.

[ShawkFactory]

Argentina were huge underdogs. :oldlol:

One of the first plays in the video manu gets an AND1 on Duncan. He totally owned him outside the WWE aka the NBA. And I do agree with you about Iverson and Marbury but Duncan should've had some balls and commanded more shots.

We need to look at all leagues when evaluating players. There's too much corruption in any one arena to make a proper analysis.

A guy scored and And1 on another guy? He HAS to be the better player then

[tpols]

A guy scored and And1 on another guy? He HAS to be the better player then

I mean... he destroyed him the whole game lol

[ShawkFactory]

I mean... he destroyed him the whole game lol

Oh ok the guy who plays better in one game HAS be superior.

Especially matters when one guy is playing with 19 year olds and AI/Marbury. And another is playing with his boys

[tpols]

Oh ok the guy who plays better in one game HAS be superior.

Especially matters when one guy is playing with 19 year olds and AI/Marbury. And another is playing with his boys

Its not just one game... Its the ****ing Olympics. :lol

With Argentina. No way Duncan leads Argentina to Gold. He was better in the NBA and had better durability but its arguable in any given game prime manu would have a decent shot at out playing prime Duncan. (as he did on olympic stage)

[ShawkFactory]

Its not just one game... Its the ****ing Olympics. :lol

With Argentina. No way Duncan leads Argentina to Gold. He was better in the NBA and had better durability but its arguable in any given game prime manu would have a decent shot at out playing prime Duncan. (as he did on olympic stage)

He doesn't know any of them...

Are you going to argue that chemistry doesn't matter? Manu grew up with most of these guys. Duncan did not grow up with Lebron, Wade, Melo, Jefferson, Marbury, AI, etc. You ever won a pickup game with your guys that you maybe shouldn't have because you just knew what each other were doing?

And honestly..we're talking about Duncan. I bet he fares a lot better playing with that Argentinian team than he does with what the US put out that year. I would bet a lot on that actually. The teamwork , ball movement, tough-minded defense? That's his bag. Remove Duncan from the USA team and add Manu..then add Duncan to Argentina (with time to get to know them). Argentina looks pretty strong there.

International ball is different. Pau dominating the circuit in 2008 matters to you less I bet. They happened to run into a way better USA team. Otherwise he'd be a gold medalist too. Gave them all they wanted in 08 and 12.

At the end of the day you're ignoring a lot of shit and talking about one game, ultimately.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Its not just one game... Its the ****ing Olympics. :lol

With Argentina. No way Duncan leads Argentina to Gold. He was better in the NBA and had better durability but its arguable in any given game prime manu would have a decent shot at out playing prime Duncan. (as he did on olympic stage)

Manu in his prime was a better player then Duncan from 2005-2011

Three (2005-07) and possibly four (08) are all prime Duncan years as well.

2005 - Manu in playoffs is better in bpm, vorp, per, win shares

2006 reg season Manu beats Duncan in BPM and win share per 48 but then they get eliminated because Duncan can't defend the Mavs small ball


2007 reg season Manu leads in BPM, win share per 48 and also points per 100 possessions


So Duncan was able to either coast in playoffs 05 or reg season 06/07 and be Manu's sidekick.

I don't see Paul George ever beating kawhi in advanced stats like that during regular season. Kawhi always has to dominate those bpm, win share and vorp stats on his team. So Duncan is the one actually load managing by being a damn pippen to Manu's Jordan.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He doesn't know any of them...

Are you going to argue that chemistry doesn't matter? Manu grew up with most of these guys. Duncan did not grow up with Lebron, Wade, Melo, Jefferson, Marbury, AI, etc. You ever won a pickup game with your guys that you maybe shouldn't have because you just knew what each other were doing?

And honestly..we're talking about Duncan. I bet he fares a lot better playing with that Argentinian team than he does with what the US put out that year. I would bet a lot on that actually. The teamwork , ball movement, tough-minded defense? That's his bag. Remove Duncan from the USA team and add Manu..then add Duncan to Argentina (with time to get to know them). Argentina looks pretty strong there.

International ball is different. Pau dominating the circuit in 2008 matters to you less I bet. They happened to run into a way better USA team. Otherwise he'd be a gold medalist too. Gave them all they wanted in 08 and 12.

At the end of the day you're ignoring a lot of shit and talking about one game, ultimately.

He's not ignoring anything. He's talking about Manu winning gold and beating America with a bunch of all stars despite having nba scrubs on his team like nocioni or Carlos del dingo whatever his name is

[HBK_Kliq_2]

manu's peak season was either 2005, 2008 or 2011.

Lets look at a random 2008 game when Duncan sat out vs mavs. Manu puts up 37 points on 11\12 freethrow shooting.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200712050SAS.html

the very next game duncan sits out again vs utah and manu puts up 37 points and 17\19 from the freethrow line

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200712070SAS.html

then that same season he faced lebron's cavs while tony parker sat out. 46 points on an insane 96% TS

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200802130CLE.html

then in another game when tony parker sat out vs raptors. Manu has 34 points on 74% TS

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200802110TOR.html


Pretty much James Harden but if he had a killer instinct and clutch gene.

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's look at some more random games

PG drops 37/12/5 on 69%TS to beat the team with the best record in basketball on the road without Kawhi

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106160UTA.html

Terance Mann drops 39 points on 89%TS to knock off the team with the best record in basketball without Kawhi, leading the Clippers to their first conference finals in franchise history, a feat Kawhi failed spectacularly to achieve the year before

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106180LAC.html

PG with another monster game, 41/13/6 on 87%TS to beat the future conference champs on the road without Kawhi

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106280PHO.html

And keep in mind, these weren't trivial regular season games, this was playoff basketball against the top 2 seeds in the conference

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Let's look at some more random games

PG drops 37/12/5 on 69%TS to beat the team with the best record in basketball on the road without Kawhi

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106160UTA.html

Terance Mann drops 39 points on 89%TS to knock off the team with the best record in basketball without Kawhi, leading the Clippers to their first conference finals in franchise history, a feat Kawhi failed spectacularly to achieve the year before

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106180LAC.html

PG with another monster game, 41/13/6 on 87%TS to beat the future conference champs on the road without Kawhi

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106280PHO.html

And keep in mind, these weren't trivial regular season games, this was playoff basketball against the top 2 seeds in the conference

But ginobli led spurs in all advanced stats like bpm, vorp, win shares.

George never did that with kawhi, even when kawhi spots him like 300 minutes hahahhaha

So my point is prime Manu (2005-2011) was better then Duncan. Was George better then kawhi? Hell no

[RRR3]

But ginobli led spurs in all advanced stats like bpm, vorp, win shares.

George never did that with kawhi, even when kawhi spots him like 300 minutes hahahhaha

So my point is prime Manu (2005-2011) was better then Duncan. Was George better then kawhi? Hell no
He was better at getting out of the second round.

[Axe]

But ginobli led spurs in all advanced stats like bpm, vorp, win shares.

George never did that with kawhi, even when kawhi spots him like 300 minutes hahahhaha

So my point is prime Manu (2005-2011) was better then Duncan. Was George better then kawhi? Hell no
Why is this stubborn asshole not banned yet? He promised to leave the board if the clippers lose. :ohwell:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He was better at getting out of the second round.

Is he? 2 finals mvps wins vs 0 appearances

[Sulico]

It pains me to say this, but I absolutely agree with HBK_Kliq_2 on this thread.

However, my opinion can't be trusted, as I am biggest Manu stan in the world.

[Phoenix]

More all NBA 1st teams and more finals mvps despite being just 30 years old. No argument for wade there.

Shaq was still demanding double teams by 2006 and was far better player then anybody on the raptors. The only guy getting doubled on raptors was kawhi

We'll go back to my original point that comparing all-nba teams between 2 different positions with players a decade apart is dumb but again, you're an idiot and a very lame troll. Nobody but you gives a shit about his roleplayer 2014 finals MVP award. Iggy did the same shit the following year and nobody cares.

[rmt]

It pains me to say this, but I absolutely agree with HBK_Kliq_2 on this thread.

However, my opinion can't be trusted, as I am biggest Manu stan in the world.

Manu was an All-Star twice, an All-NBA 3rd team twice, was 6th Man of the Year once and made the All-Rookie 2nd team - that's the sum total of his INDIVIDUAL NBA career. Agreeing with what this joker posts is nuts.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We'll go back to my original point that comparing all-nba teams between 2 different positions with players a decade apart is dumb but again, you're an idiot and a very lame troll. Nobody but you gives a shit about his roleplayer 2014 finals MVP award. Iggy did the same shit the following year and nobody cares.

how the hell is he a role player when he led them in vorp? because he averaged 2 less points hahahaa

let me know when luka gets a finals MVP

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu was an All-Star twice, an All-NBA 3rd team twice, was 6th Man of the Year once and made the All-Rookie 2nd team - that's the sum total of his INDIVIDUAL NBA career. Agreeing with what this joker posts is nuts.

Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 and when they played spurs in the playoffs, manu matched his production (gmsc) 18.5 vs 18.2.

That should show you how damn good Manu was, how stacked spurs were and how easy Duncan had it that year. They were like the durant warriors.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Hell NO.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Hell NO.

his 2005 playoff run he outplayed ray allen, then outplayed steve nash, then outplayed reigning finals mvp billups

Manu was very Wade 06 lite that year.

[Phoenix]

how the hell is he a role player when he led them in vorp? because he averaged 2 less points hahahaa

let me know when luka gets a finals MVP

Kawhi wasn't an All-NBA level player in 2014. He was an up and coming prospect. When was the last time someone averaging 13/6/2 during the season and 14/7/2 during the playoffs *not* considered a role player?!

Hell he wasnt even the leading scorer in the finals. Fukk outta here with your VORP bullshit. :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi wasn't an All-NBA level player in 2014. He was an up and coming prospect. When was the last time someone averaging 13/6/2 during the season and 14/7/2 during the playoffs *not* considered a role player?!

Hell he wasnt even the leading scorer in the finals. Fukk outta here with your VORP bullshit. :lol

Kawhi led spurs in game score for multiple series during that title run (vs blazers and vs heat) and he was also leading them in minutes vs thunder. Top that off with VORP leader and finals MVP, clear cut best player.

Also advanced stat RAPTOR has Kawhi as 4th best player in the 2013-14 regular season only behind paul, curry, Durant

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

And kawhi was the co scoring leader of the finals, him and tony parker both averaged 18PPG.

If you can give me a couple examples of VORP being wrong during a title run, then we will throw the stat away. You can't do that because VORP is always correct and always tells you who was the most VALUABLE.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kawhi wasn't an All-NBA level player in 2014. He was an up and coming prospect. When was the last time someone averaging 13/6/2 during the season and 14/7/2 during the playoffs *not* considered a role player?!

Hell he wasnt even the leading scorer in the finals. Fukk outta here with your VORP bullshit. :lol
Hey, Kawhi dropped that in Game 7 against the Nuggets and he's not considered a role player

[Phoenix]

Kawhi led spurs in game score for multiple series during that title run (vs blazers and vs heat) and he was also leading them in minutes vs thunder. Top that off with VORP leader and finals MVP, clear cut best player.

Also advanced stat RAPTOR has Kawhi as 4th best player in the 2013-14 regular season only behind paul, curry, Durant

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

And kawhi was the co scoring leader of the finals, him and tony parker both averaged 18PPG.

If you can give me a couple examples of VORP being wrong during a title run, then we will throw the stat away. You can't do that because VORP is always correct and always tells you who was the most VALUABLE.

When I clicked on the 13-14 season for that RAPTOR link it has Kawhi at #13( Kevin Love was #4), incidentally it has Kyle Lowry tied at number 6 with Joakim Noah. I don't know how you're getting Kawhi being #4 in 2014. Also by the same list, as I click through the years Kawhi has never been #1 since you like using that to determine the best player pecking order.

Advanced stats, like all stats, only tell part of the tale and often lead to results like Joakim Noah being top 10 in RAPTOR in 2014 ahead of Lebron who is #9. So I guess Lebron was only the 9th best player in 2014 according to RAPTOR :confusedshrug:.
These are 'pull out of your ass' stats on many times. The simple fact is Kawhi's raw productions of 13/6/2 season, 14/7/2 playoffs in 2014 is role-player status. The 2014 title run, including the finals, was an ensemble effort even if Kawhi was the best Spur to close the series. Parker averaged 18. Duncan was 15/10. Manu averaged 14. Kawhi's production in game 1 was 9 points and 2 rebounds; the Spurs won by 15. The Heat barely scrapped by a game 2 win because Lebron went off for 35( Kawhi scored 9 points....again). Game 4, Kawhi scored 20....Tony Parker scored 19. Big whoop. The Spurs were winning that series regardless of Kawhit when the average margin of victory for every Spurs win was 18 points and the one Heat win was by 2 points off the back of Lebron's 35.

[Phoenix]

Hey, Kawhi dropped that in Game 7 against the Nuggets and he's not considered a role player

:lol

[Sulico]

Manu was an All-Star twice, an All-NBA 3rd team twice, was 6th Man of the Year once and made the All-Rookie 2nd team - that's the sum total of his INDIVIDUAL NBA career. Agreeing with what this joker posts is nuts.

Manu Ginobili was best player in 2004-2005 in the world.

He started off with win in the Olympic Games. Then he was fifth best player in RS and absolutely best player in playoffs with all 4 guys who was better than him in RS well behind.

Jerry West was never best player in the wold. At least I don't think so, it's not like I watched any of his seasons.

[hold this L]

It's cute how he tries to make Kawhi seem like some leader when the guy was a role player then. Guy has been in 3 stacked teams all his life. Look at Kawhi's teams record he plays in when he's injured and compare it to someone like Lebron or Curry and see the difference.

[rmt]

Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 and when they played spurs in the playoffs, manu matched his production (gmsc) 18.5 vs 18.2.

That should show you how damn good Manu was, how stacked spurs were and how easy Duncan had it that year. They were like the durant warriors.

Touting gmsc vs Nash but fails to mention that in that series Duncan had a 23.1 (gmsc) vs 18.2 for Manu.

2005 vs PHX
Duncan 27.4 pts 13.8 rebs 3.2 asst 1.8 blks 52.7%FG
Manu 22.2 pts 6.2 rebs 4.8 asst 2 stl 49.4%FG

[SouBeachTalents]

Manu Ginobili was best player in 2004-2005 in the world.

He started off with win in the Olympic Games. Then he was fifth best player in RS and absolutely best player in playoffs with all 4 guys who was better than him in RS well behind.

Jerry West was never best player in the wold. At least I don't think so, it's not like I watched any of his seasons.
He absolutely was not :oldlol: Jerry West was a top 5 player for a decade and a consensus top 15 player of all time. It's just an asinine comparison tbh.

[bizil]

HELL TO THE NAW!!! Do people realize it FINALLY took the GOAT of all basketball in MJ to FINALLY take the GOAT SG crown from West. West held that crown for a LONG ASS TIME! MJ took in the early 90's! And even on a peak-prime level, West was the king of SG's for a LONG ASS TIME! Until MJ took that crown in the 80's. Bonafide legends like Gervin, the Pearl, Pistol Pete, Bing, Thompson, Moncrief, etc. in the 60's and 70's couldn't take EITHER CROWN from West!

It's because he was the true TOTAL PACKAGE! Not a hole in his game in terms scoring, passing, rebounding, and defending. Not a hole is his game in terms of overall scoring skillset. Would have FOR SURE benefitted with a three point line. And he was virtually interchangeable between SG and PG. MJ added that blueprint to a 6'6 freak athletic body! West (SG) and Oscar (PG) are THE FOUNDATION for flawless fundamental excellence. It took MJ and Magic to finally knock them off! It's AN INSULT to put Manu in such a conversation!

[hold this L]

HELL TO THE NAW!!! Do people realize it FINALLY took the GOAT of all basketball in MJ to FINALLY take the GOAT SG crown from West. West held that crown for a LONG ASS TIME! MJ took in the early 90's! And even on a peak-prime level, West was the king of SG's for a LONG ASS TIME! Until MJ took that crown in the 80's. Bonafide legends like Gervin, the Pearl, Pistol Pete, Bing, Thompson, Moncrief, etc. in the 60's and 70's couldn't take EITHER CROWN from West!

It's because he was the true TOTAL PACKAGE! Not a hole in his game in terms scoring, passing, rebounding, and defending. Not a hole is his game in terms of overall scoring skillset. Would have FOR SURE benefitted with a three point line. And he was virtually interchangeable between SG and PG. MJ added that blueprint to a 6'6 freak athletic body! West (SG) and Oscar (PG) are THE FOUNDATION for flawless fundamental excellence. It took MJ and Magic to finally knock them off! It's AN INSULT to put Manu in such a conversation!
I think you're missing OP's point. The guy has been trying to downplay Duncan's ability since he's been on this forum. He's a Kawhi stan and Duncan was still prevalent when Kawhi was a role player that won a championship in 2014, so he uses that as some weird reason to discredit Duncan through various means.. like this crazy topic. There's zero chance he believes this.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

When I clicked on the 13-14 season for that RAPTOR link it has Kawhi at #13( Kevin Love was #4), incidentally it has Kyle Lowry tied at number 6 with Joakim Noah. I don't know how you're getting Kawhi being #4 in 2014. Also by the same list, as I click through the years Kawhi has never been #1 since you like using that to determine the best player pecking order.

Advanced stats, like all stats, only tell part of the tale and often lead to results like Joakim Noah being top 10 in RAPTOR in 2014 ahead of Lebron who is #9. So I guess Lebron was only the 9th best player in 2014 according to RAPTOR :confusedshrug:.
These are 'pull out of your ass' stats on many times. The simple fact is Kawhi's raw productions of 13/6/2 season, 14/7/2 playoffs in 2014 is role-player status. The 2014 title run, including the finals, was an ensemble effort even if Kawhi was the best Spur to close the series. Parker averaged 18. Duncan was 15/10. Manu averaged 14. Kawhi's production in game 1 was 9 points and 2 rebounds; the Spurs won by 15. The Heat barely scrapped by a game 2 win because Lebron went off for 35( Kawhi scored 9 points....again). Game 4, Kawhi scored 20....Tony Parker scored 19. Big whoop. The Spurs were winning that series regardless of Kawhit when the average margin of victory for every Spurs win was 18 points and the one Heat win was by 2 points off the back of Lebron's 35.

Kawhi was #1 in raptor in the 2017 season, check again. He's very high on the list every year. Click "overall raptor". Not sure what you're looking at.

Kawhi dominated the finals and averaged 24PPG on 69% FG for 3 straight wins.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It's cute how he tries to make Kawhi seem like some leader when the guy was a role player then. Guy has been in 3 stacked teams all his life. Look at Kawhi's teams record he plays in when he's injured and compare it to someone like Lebron or Curry and see the difference.

Its cute how kawhi was a role player because he averaged 2 less points then Duncan hahahaha

I can see if it was like a 10+ PPG gap but you're full of shit there.

Kawhi has never played on a team with a superstar in his prime, he has had worse teammates then curry or LeBron. Far far worse.

Mr no finals mvps is calling someone a role player, that's also cute.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Touting gmsc vs Nash but fails to mention that in that series Duncan had a 23.1 (gmsc) vs 18.2 for Manu.

2005 vs PHX
Duncan 27.4 pts 13.8 rebs 3.2 asst 1.8 blks 52.7%FG
Manu 22.2 pts 6.2 rebs 4.8 asst 2 stl 49.4%FG

Manu crushes Duncan in BPM, VORP, win shares and per.

He was much better in the finals and outplayed ray allen, Steve Nash and Chauncey billups.

Duncan had role player advanced stats and was just there for the ride.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Hey, Kawhi dropped that in Game 7 against the Nuggets and he's not considered a role player

Kawhi led that series in GMSC just like he did in 2014 finals.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu Ginobili was best player in 2004-2005 in the world.

He started off with win in the Olympic Games. Then he was fifth best player in RS and absolutely best player in playoffs with all 4 guys who was better than him in RS well behind.

Jerry West was never best player in the wold. At least I don't think so, it's not like I watched any of his seasons.

He was the best player in the world in 2005 and top 5 player in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011

[HBK_Kliq_2]

HELL TO THE NAW!!! Do people realize it FINALLY took the GOAT of all basketball in MJ to FINALLY take the GOAT SG crown from West. West held that crown for a LONG ASS TIME! MJ took in the early 90's! And even on a peak-prime level, West was the king of SG's for a LONG ASS TIME! Until MJ took that crown in the 80's. Bonafide legends like Gervin, the Pearl, Pistol Pete, Bing, Thompson, Moncrief, etc. in the 60's and 70's couldn't take EITHER CROWN from West!

It's because he was the true TOTAL PACKAGE! Not a hole in his game in terms scoring, passing, rebounding, and defending. Not a hole is his game in terms of overall scoring skillset. Would have FOR SURE benefitted with a three point line. And he was virtually interchangeable between SG and PG. MJ added that blueprint to a 6'6 freak athletic body! West (SG) and Oscar (PG) are THE FOUNDATION for flawless fundamental excellence. It took MJ and Magic to finally knock them off! It's AN INSULT to put Manu in such a conversation!

But jerry west was a career choker. He never overcame the odds and became the clear cut best player on a title team. Even when he won the title, his efficiency and advanced stats sucked. Even when he won finals mvp, he lost the series.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He absolutely was not :oldlol: Jerry West was a top 5 player for a decade and a consensus top 15 player of all time. It's just an asinine comparison tbh.

Did you see the stats that James harden was putting up on the nets this year while sharing the load with Durant and Irving??

In playoffs harden was averaging barely 20PPG. Does that sound familiar to you?? When you're on a stacked ass team like spurs manu or nets harden, your stats take a huge sacrifice.

Manu is a wolf in sheep clothing.

[Dagoods]

In 2004 and 2005, Manu Ginobili might have the most dominant back to back years in the history of basketball.

- in 2004 he led his shithole country to the gold medal despite playing with a bunch of plumbers. This was the last time a non America team won gold.

- in 2005 he led the entire playoffs in VORP, was robbed out of finals MVP and had a finals game 7 performance of 14.1 BPM.

So the main differences I see is Manu can overcome the odds (beating USA) and jerry west can never overcome the odds (beating russell). Also manu got screwed out of a 2005 finals MVP when he carried his team to the victory, while jerry west gets handed a finals MVP despite his team losing.

Girls from Argentina > your cousin and pillow.

[SouBeachTalents]

Did you see the stats that James harden was putting up on the nets this year while sharing the load with Durant and Irving??

In playoffs harden was averaging barely 20PPG. Does that sound familiar to you?? When you're on a stacked ass team like spurs manu or nets harden, your stats take a huge sacrifice.

Manu is a wolf in sheep clothing.
I agree with you, Manu is a bad man and is better than his stats/accolades would indicate. But he was still absolutely never a top 5 player in the league :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I agree with you, Manu is a bad man and is better than his stats/accolades would indicate. But he was still absolutely never a top 5 player in the league :lol

Is James Harden a top 5 player in the league? he was putting up 20.2PPG this year on a similar stacked team as 2005 manu.

Ya know the MVP James Harden.

Of course Manu was top 5 in 2005. List me five that are better.

[SouBeachTalents]

Is James Harden a top 5 player in the league? he was putting up 20.2PPG this year on a similar stacked team as 2005 manu.

Ya know the MVP James Harden.

Of course Manu was top 5 in 2005. List me five that are better.
I'll give you 10

Duncan
Dirk
Wade
Nash
KG
LeBron
Shaq
Amare
McGrady
Allen

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I'll give you 10

Duncan
Dirk
Wade
Nash
KG
LeBron
Shaq
Amare
McGrady
Allen

Duncan was on the same damn team and put up inferior stats

Wade got hurt

Shaq wasn't that good in the playoffs

Allen was outplayed by Manu in the 2nd round

Nash was also outplayed by Manu in the 3rd round

Loser mcgrady wasn't better. Manu would of took yao past the 1st round

[Phoenix]

HELL TO THE NAW!!! Do people realize it FINALLY took the GOAT of all basketball in MJ to FINALLY take the GOAT SG crown from West. West held that crown for a LONG ASS TIME! MJ took in the early 90's! And even on a peak-prime level,
[QUOTE=HBK_Kliq_2;14438524]Kawhi was #1 in raptor in the 2017 season, check again. He's very high on the list every year. Click "overall raptor". Not sure what you're looking at.

Kawhi dominated the finals and averaged 24PPG on 69% FG for 3 straight wins.

He was #3. Not sure what you're looking at.

2 of the 5 games he scored 9 points, the first of which the Spurs still won by 15 so it's not as if Kawhi playing well was a requirement for beating the Heat that finals.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

[QUOTE=bizil;14438502]HELL TO THE NAW!!! Do people realize it FINALLY took the GOAT of all basketball in MJ to FINALLY take the GOAT SG crown from West. West held that crown for a LONG ASS TIME! MJ took in the early 90's! And even on a peak-prime level,


He was #3. Not sure what you're looking at.

2 of the 5 games he scored 9 points, the first of which the Spurs still won by 15 so it's not as if Kawhi playing well was a requirement for beating the Heat that finals.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

2017 you click full season and it includes reg season and playoffs. Kawhi is #1

And 2015 he was also top 3 in reg season

And 2016 he was #2 reg season

Kawhi dominated that stat plenty.

As far as 2014 finals, it was tied 1-1, kawhi then busted the series open and won 3 straight games while averaging 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG. Doubled Duncan's point average and had 69% FG.

[rmt]

Manu Ginobili was best player in 2004-2005 in the world.

He started off with win in the Olympic Games. Then he was fifth best player in RS and absolutely best player in playoffs with all 4 guys who was better than him in RS well behind.

Jerry West was never best player in the wold. At least I don't think so, it's not like I watched any of his seasons.

Yet in his day job, Manu is awarded a mere All-Star honor - not even any All-NBA team honor that year.



It pains me to say this, but I absolutely agree with HBK_Kliq_2 on this thread.

However, my opinion can't be trusted, as I am biggest Manu stan in the world.

[Gohan]

He was the best player in the world in 2005 and top 5 player in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011

No he wasnt iverson was the best in 2005. Ginobeeli wasnt even top 5

[rmt]

Kawhi was #1 in raptor in the 2017 season, check again. He's very high on the list every year. Click "overall raptor". Not sure what you're looking at.

Kawhi dominated the finals and averaged 24PPG on 69% FG for 3 straight wins.

Yeah, sure Kawhi dominated the finals - outscored by 2 people.

Parker 18 pts 4.6 asst
Kawhi 17.8 pts 6.4 rebs
Lebron 28.2 pts 7.8 rebs 4 asst 2 stls

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah, sure Kawhi dominated the finals - outscored by 2 people.

Parker 18 pts 4.6 asst
Kawhi 17.8 pts 6.4 rebs
Lebron 28.2 pts 7.8 rebs 4 asst 2 stls

24PPG to duncan's 12PPG in the 3 straight wins. 69% FG over those three straight wins as well.

[Honor Boost]

24PPG to duncan's 12PPG in the 3 straight wins. 69% FG over those three straight wins as well.

+1 Kawhi was the rightful winner of the 2014 Finals MVP award

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No he wasnt iverson was the best in 2005. Ginobeeli wasnt even top 5

manu's stats were better then iverson in 2005 playoffs and you couldn't even play more then 5 games. The year before that, iverson led USA in minutes at the olympics with allstar nba players and lost against Manu when he had Carlos Del Fino and Nocioni hahahahhahaah

[HBK_Kliq_2]

+1 Kawhi was the rightful winner of the 2014 Finals MVP award

yeah they got that one right. Duncan was 0-3 in finals MVPS against Lebron teams.

[rmt]

He was the best player in the world in 2005 and top 5 player in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011

Nope.

MVP voting
2005 Manu - not even ranked (Basketball Reference only shows top 16 - Duncan 4th with 328 pts, Nash 1st with 1066 pts)
2006 Manu - not even ranked (Basketball reference only shows top 10 - Duncan 8th with 23 pts, Parker 9th with 9 pts, Nash 1st with 924 pts)
2007 Manu - not even ranked top 15 (Basketball reference only shows top 15 - Duncan 4th with 286 pts, Parker 15th with 1 point, Dirk 1st with 1138 pts)
2008 Manu 10th with 9 points (Duncan 7th with 25 pts, Kobe 1st with 1100 pts)
2010 Manu - ranked 11th with 3 pts, Lebron 1st with 1205 pts
2011 Manu - ranked 8th with 20 pts, Derrick Rose with 1182 pts

[bizil]

But jerry west was a career choker. He never overcame the odds and became the clear cut best player on a title team. Even when he won the title, his efficiency and advanced stats sucked. Even when he won finals mvp, he lost the series.

LMAO!! Thing is THERE IS NO DEBATE West was the GOAT SG until MJ passed him by! Even today after all these years, he's on the Mt. Rushmore of SG's with MJ, Mamba, and D Wade!

[Sulico]

Yet in his day job, Manu is awarded a mere All-Star honor - not even any All-NBA team honor that year.

Back in the day counting stats were all we had, at least all we considered relevant. Thats why Iverson for example was so highly regarded with his scoring numbers despite his inefficiency. And so Manu didn't recieve much love from the league, as his PPG, RPG, APG weren't all that high.

Today, with advanced stats we able to recognize Manu's impact. RAPTOR for example puts him as best player in 2005.

https://i115.fastpic.org/big/2021/0917/c6/a19262448185262af1e9ceaa9f138ac6.jpg

But even using more simple BPM, WS/48 and VORP stats we can see that Manu was best or one of the best players in 2004-2005.

Oh and I'm trying to be impartial right now. If I let my Manu's stan out, I'll be telling you how he was top 10 player of all time.

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14438635]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

2017 you click full season and it includes reg season and playoffs. Kawhi is #1

And 2015 he was also top 3 in reg season

And 2016 he was #2 reg season

Kawhi dominated that stat plenty.

As far as 2014 finals, it was tied 1-1, kawhi then busted the series open and won 3 straight games while averaging 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG. Doubled Duncan's point average and had 69% FG.

I did and Kawhi comes up number 3, Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd. I clicked on all 'full seasons' for every year and Kawhi wasn't number 1 in any of them. :confusedshrug:

Point is the first game was won without Kawhi being a factor(9 points) The one game Miami won, they scrapped out a 2 point win behind Lebron's 35. Lebron was the leading scorer in 4 of those games and was the leading scorer of the series by 10ppg ( on 67% TS). The Heat weren't going to win that series regardless of Kawhi because they were horrible defensively and only Bron/Wade/Bosh were in double figures. The Spurs had 5 players in double figures ppg. It's ain't complicated math.

[rmt]

Back in the day counting stats were all we had, at least all we considered relevant. Thats why Iverson for example was so highly regarded with his scoring numbers despite his inefficiency. And so Manu didn't recieve much love from the league, as his PPG, RPG, APG weren't all that high.

Today, with advanced stats we able to recognize Manu's impact. RAPTOR for example puts him as best player in 2005.

https://i115.fastpic.org/big/2021/0917/c6/a19262448185262af1e9ceaa9f138ac6.jpg

But even using more simple BPM, WS/48 and VORP stats we can see that Manu was best or one of the best players in 2004-2005.

Oh and I'm trying to be impartial right now. If I let my Manu's stan out, I'll be telling you how he was top 10 player of all time.

It's ok to be a stan as long as you don't let reality slip away from you :-) I'm a long time Spur fan, and I recognize what Manu did for the Spurs. But for those who think he could possibly maintain that efficiency over the minutes needed to be a franchise player or to carry a team or was more important to the Spurs than Parker (or in some nuts' minds - Duncan) - it doesn't.

There's a reason Pop limited Manu to 25.4 minutes a game (over his career) - because he makes MAJOR mistakes at ends of games when he's tired. See Dirk foul and barreling into 4 Heat players and picking up offensive foul when he should have been running clock. We won't even talk about how injury-prone he was or how long he took to get back into rhythm after injury.

[Sulico]

It's ok to be a stan as long as you don't let reality slip away from you :-) I'm a long time Spur fan, and I recognize what Manu did for the Spurs. But for those who think he could possibly maintain that efficiency over the minutes needed to be a franchise player or to carry a team or was more important to the Spurs than Parker (or in some nuts' minds - Duncan) - it doesn't.

There's a reason Pop limited Manu to 25.4 minutes a game (over his career) - because he makes MAJOR mistakes at ends of games when he's tired. See Dirk foul and barreling into 4 Heat players and picking up offensive foul when he should have been running clock. We won't even talk about how injury-prone he was or how long he took to get back into rhythm after injury.

You can't really convince me of anything, especially not with crazy talk like "Parker was more important".
And I will always believe that Manu being best player in 2004-2005 is a proven fact, and we have a ring and a medal to prove it.
My goal was to spark a debate and show that Manu vs West is debatable, unlike many people think here.

[ShawkFactory]

You can't really convince me of anything, especially not with crazy talk like "Parker was more important".
And I will always believe that Manu being best player in 2004-2005 is a proven fact, and we have a ring and a medal to prove it.
My goal was to spark a debate and show that Manu vs West is debatable, unlike many people think here.

Did you lose your password to you other account? Wtf is happening here

[rmt]

You can't really convince me of anything, especially not with crazy talk like "Parker was more important".
And I will always believe that Manu being best player in 2004-2005 is a proven fact, and we have a ring and a medal to prove it.
My goal was to spark a debate and show that Manu vs West is debatable, unlike many people think here.

Crazy talk - that Parker was more important to the Spurs than Manu? Parker was a workhorse for the Spurs - carried them night in, night out for years - did exactly what Pop told him to do - might not be the flashy player with spectacular plays like Manu but solid, dependable every night (imo, Parker was plenty spectacular on his own - his finishing ability in the paint was remarkable). Now solid, dependable players who bring it every night like Parker and Duncan might not be your cup of tea, but they were a big part of what made the Spurs so good for so long.

[hold this L]

Its cute how kawhi was a role player because he averaged 2 less points then Duncan hahahaha

I can see if it was like a 10+ PPG gap but you're full of shit there.

Kawhi has never played on a team with a superstar in his prime, he has had worse teammates then curry or LeBron. Far far worse.

Mr no finals mvps is calling someone a role player, that's also cute.
Post Kawhi's success in games he doesn't play and compare it to either Steph or Lebron. Lets see how different it is. You can cry about superstars all you want, but he's the only star that has never been on even a mediocre team all his career, let alone a bad one.

As much as you go in your mental issues spasms to explain that Duncan wasn't important, he was still more important than Kawhi up until he was about to retire.

[Sulico]

Crazy talk - that Parker was more important to the Spurs than Manu? Parker was a workhorse for the Spurs - carried them night in, night out for years - did exactly what Pop told him to do - might not be the flashy player with spectacular plays like Manu but solid, dependable every night (imo, Parker was plenty spectacular on his own - his finishing ability in the paint was remarkable). Now solid, dependable players who bring it every night like Parker and Duncan might not be your cup of tea, but they were a big part of what made the Spurs so good for so long.

Duncan is one 10 best players in the history of NBA and there is no question that he was more important to Spurs than Manu.

But Parker, you are right, he was a workhorse. That made him replaceable though. Give Spurs another good solid player and they still win. Manu was the reason they won, when he played like genious he was. And you are right, he was the reason they lost when he played like crap. 2006 and 2013 for example.

[2much_knowledge]

Im sorry but this is as retarded as any bran stan thread , and thats saying alot lol

[rmt]

Duncan is one 10 best players in the history of NBA and there is no question that he was more important to Spurs than Manu.

But Parker, you are right, he was a workhorse. That made him replaceable though. Give Spurs another good solid player and they still win. Manu was the reason they won, when he played like genious he was. And you are right, he was the reason they lost when he played like crap. 2006 and 2013 for example.

You're right that he's the reason they lost in 2006 and 2013. But he's not the reason he won in 1999, 2003, 2007 or 2014 (I'll give him co-honors with Duncan for 2005).

Another good solid player? Which good solid player wins a FMVP, comes 5th/6th in MVP voting twice and earns 6x All-Star honors? It isn't only I who see Parker as the better player:

Spurs Career
Parker (17 years) - 15.8 pts 5.7 asst 49.2FG% 31.1 minutes
Manu (16 years) - 13.3 pts 3.8 asst 44.7FG% 25.4 minutes

Parker - FMVP, 6x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team, 1x All-NBA 3rd Team, All-Rookie 1st team
Manu - 2x All-Star, 2x All-NBA 3rd Team, 6th Man of the Year, All-Rookie 2nd team

MVP voting
Parker - 9th (2006), 15th (2007), 8th (2009), 12th (2011), 5th (2012), 6th (2013), 12th (2014)
Manu 10th (2008), 11th (2010), 8th (2011)

[Sulico]

You're right that he's the reason they lost in 2006 and 2013. But he's not the reason he won in 1999, 2003, 2007 or 2014 (I'll give him co-honors with Duncan for 2005).

Another good solid player? Which good solid player wins a FMVP, comes 5th/6th in MVP voting twice and earns 6x All-Star honors? It isn't only I who see Parker as the better player:

Spurs Career
Parker (17 years) - 15.8 pts 5.7 asst 49.2FG% 31.1 minutes
Manu (16 years) - 13.3 pts 3.8 asst 44.7FG% 25.4 minutes

Parker - FMVP, 6x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team, 1x All-NBA 3rd Team, All-Rookie 1st team
Manu - 2x All-Star, 2x All-NBA 3rd Team, 6th Man of the Year, All-Rookie 2nd team

MVP voting
Parker - 9th (2006), 15th (2007), 8th (2009), 12th (2011), 5th (2012), 6th (2013), 12th (2014)
Manu 10th (2008), 11th (2010), 8th (2011)

Yup, and also here is BPM for best 12 seasons of Manu and Parker careers.

Manu - 8.3/7.8/6.9/6.9/6.8/6.7/6.1/5.4/4.7/4.0/3.6/3.6

Parker - 3.6/3.6/3.1/2.8/2.7/2.4/2.0/1.8/0.9/0.8/0.5/0.4

12th worst BPM for Manu is the same as best for Parker.

6th worst Manu WS/48 is better than Parker's best.

They seem like similar players if you only look at the points per game, but they're not. Whole different impact on the game of basketball.