Dwight won East w/out super-team, so why Lebron get props for winning w/ super-team?

[3ba11]

since when is forming a super-team and making the Finals a demonstration of basketball ability?..

Why should that kind of Finals appearances further a goat case?

CONCLUSION: Lebron's Finals appearances mean nothing in the goat debate... Lebron's Finals appearances with super-teams < Jordan's appearances without..

[RRR3]

LeBron doubled Kobe’s FMVP total :eek:

[MadDog]

Do you count the Lakers and Celtics championships in the 80s? What about the Sixers? :confusedshrug: You're opening up a can of worms with these kind of topics. I don't even like LeBron and generally think he's overrated, but he was amazing in that series. Orlando had the better team with higher quality snipers.

[3ba11]

do you count the lakers and celtics championships in the 80s? What about the sixers? :confusedshrug: You're opening up a can of worms with these kind of topics. I don't even like lebron and generally think he's overrated, but he was amazing in that series. Orlando had the better team with higher quality snipers.


no one counts APPEARANCES.. No one ever did until LeInferior began manufacturing his resume to have a fake debate with the goat.. Then his minions in the media suddenly cared about appearances and began rationalizing why losing the Finals with super-teams was infact better than winning without them.

:banghead::hammerhead::whatever:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-27-2015/QA3opV.gif

[GrayGoat]

LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe

[3ba11]

LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe


So you guys concede that the pro-Jordan arguments kick Lebron's ass, and now you're hiding behind the #2 player all-time (kobe) to give Lebron a crying chance of being relevant.

rofl

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe was cleaning up a lot of Lebron's garbage in the late 2000's.

2007: lebron gets swept by manu\duncan\parker spurs

2008: Kobe easily beats that same spurs team 4-1 in the west finals despite Pau Gasol averaging 12 points hahahaha

2009: lebron loses to Dwight
2009 finals: kobe easily beats Dwight 4-1 in finals despite 17.5% usage from his sidekick Pau Gasol

and then Kobe had to beat washed up KG in 2010 finals as well because Lebron couldn't do it

[RRR3]

So you guys concede that the pro-Jordan arguments kick Lebron's ass, and now you're hiding behind the #2 player all-time (kobe) to give Lebron a crying chance of being relevant.

rofl
No it’s more like you slipped up and admitted Kobe is your favorite player and there’s no point in arguing with you about some player you don’t even care about. Besides it’s incredibly easy to argue LeBron>Kobe and it’s funny seeing you try to argue facts.

[3ba11]

Kobe was cleaning up a lot of Lebron's garbage in the late 2000's.

2007: lebron gets swept by manu\duncan\parker spurs

2008: Kobe easily beats that same spurs team 4-1 in the west finals despite Pau Gasol averaging 12 points hahahaha

2009: lebron loses to Dwight
2009 finals: kobe easily beats Dwight 4-1 in finals despite 17.5% usage from his sidekick Pau Gasol

and then Kobe had to beat washed up KG in 2010 finals as well because Lebron couldn't do it


https://c.tenor.com/OiSq2tq5IUcAAAAC/surprised-shocked.gif


GrayGoat dead

Lebron's ball-dominance reduces teammate role to spot-up shooter, which requires more talent to offset the reduction.. Otoh, Kobe's scoring is partially-assisted, which elevates teammate role and capacity for team strategy, thus requiring less supporting talent..

So Kobe has higher team ceilings with less supporting talent than Lebron's ball-dominance.. Kobe needed a Bosh-level guy at #2 whilst Lebron needed him at #3

[RRR3]

https://c.tenor.com/OiSq2tq5IUcAAAAC/surprised-shocked.gif


GrayGoat dead

Kobe's scoring is partially-assisted, which elevates teammate role and capacity for team strategy, so Kobe has higher team ceilings with less supporting talent.. Kobe needed a Bosh-level guy at #2 whilst Lebron needed him at #3
Those are terrible arguments that fall apart with the slightest context. LeBron was playing with trash in 07, Kobe wasn’t in 08 and 07 LeBron wasn’t even his prime so Kobe being better than that version of him means nothing. LeBron clearly outplayed Kobe versus the Magic, it turns out Pau Gasol is better than Mo Williams though.

Name a team with comparable help to Kobe when he won with Pau. It’s only the Celtics. Everyone else was nowhere near as good as a team. So saying “he just had Pau” ignores the state of the league and the fact that he has the best or second best cast.

[RRR3]

Snivelball destroyed again. Poor guy is gonna bring up MJ soon (his coping mechanism).

[MadDog]

no one counts APPEARANCES.. No one ever did until LeInferior began manufacturing his resume to have a fake debate with the goat.. Then his minions in the media suddenly cared about appearances and began rationalizing why losing the Finals with super-teams was infact better than winning without them.

:banghead::hammerhead::whatever:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-27-2015/QA3opV.gif

What about championships? You wrote "winning" in your thread title, but now you're speaking on finals appearances. I agree they shouldn't be rewarded. Winning rings should count though - why would it not?

[3ba11]

.

How Larry Hughes got to Cleveland - Sports Illustrated


Throughout 2004--05, All-Star small forward LeBron James had tried to persuade Hughes to come to Cleveland, where he could play Pippen to James's Jordan. LeBron's appeals intensified during a late-season Wizards win in which Hughes scored 31 to damage the Cavs' playoff chances. "We talked about it that whole game," says Hughes. "He kept saying, 'Come play with me.' And I kept saying, 'Nah, I'm staying in Washington.'"

https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/08/15/how-larry-got-to-cleveland


Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 1st team defense and flourished alongside an off-guard and elite jumpshooter like Arenas that let a combo guard like Hughes have the ball in his hands.

[Joey Turnbuckle]

Dwight in his prime was better than Lebron has ever been.


I think some people forget how dominant guys like Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire were when young and healthy.

[MadDog]

Dwight in his prime was better than Lebron has ever been.


I think some people forget how dominant guys like Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire were when tough and healthy.

Dwight wasn't even better than 2009 LeBron.

[3ba11]

Those are terrible arguments that fall apart with the slightest context. LeBron was playing with trash in 07, Kobe wasn’t in 08 and 07 LeBron wasn’t even his prime so Kobe being better than that version of him means nothing. LeBron clearly outplayed Kobe versus the Magic, it turns out Pau Gasol is better than Mo Williams though.

Name a team with comparable help to Kobe when he won with Pau. It’s only the Celtics. Everyone else was nowhere near as good as a team. So saying “he just had Pau” ignores the state of the league and the fact that he has the best or second best cast.


You're asking me to "name a team" when we just discussed how Kobe demolished the same Spurs that swept Lebron

And you claim that Lebron had no help in 07', but he literally begged (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497452-Dwight-won-East-w-out-super-team-so-why-Lebron-get-props-for-winning-w-super-team&p=14435433&viewfull=1#post14435433) a young player that was producing prime Pippen stats (22/6/5 all-defender) to leave Arenas and join in Cleveland..

Lebron got his wish and then turned his pippen into a spot-up shooter - THAT'S ON LEBRON - his skill restriction to ball-domination hurt Hughes, while Hughes crushed it next to off-guard and elite jumpshooter Arenas.. Ultimately, Jordan won 6 titles next to a player like Hughes/Ingram/Bosh, while Lebron destroyed all these guys and mostly lost with them.

In addition to Hughes, Lebron had a 2-time all-star center, the future COY and the #3 defense - Jordan only 3-peated with help like this.. Ultimately, the only reason Lebron lost the 07' Finals is because he averaged 22 on 35% (the only 1st option in history that shot 35% in a playoff series), and his skill restriction to ball-domination destroyed his pippen (hughes).. that's the historical record and statistical fact.

[Joey Turnbuckle]

.

How Larry Hughes got to Cleveland - Sports Illustrated


Throughout 2004--05, All-Star small forward LeBron James had tried to persuade Hughes to come to Cleveland, where he could play Pippen to James's Jordan. LeBron's appeals intensified during a late-season Wizards win in which Hughes scored 31 to damage the Cavs' playoff chances. "We talked about it that whole game," says Hughes. "He kept saying, 'Come play with me.' And I kept saying, 'Nah, I'm staying in Washington.'"

https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/08/15/how-larry-got-to-cleveland


Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 1st team defense and flourished alongside an off-guard and elite jumpshooter like Arenas that let a combo guard like Hughes have the ball in his hands.



So Lebron was a bitch his first day in the NBA basically...

Dude is f*cking pathetic.

[Joey Turnbuckle]

Dwight wasn't even better than 2009 LeBron.

Dwight carried a team.

Ray Allen and Wade carried Lebron.

Lebron is beyond overrated.

[Joey Turnbuckle]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CllRe7KWEAAihOU.jpg

[RRR3]

You're asking me to "name a team" when we just discussed how Kobe demolished the same Spurs that swept Lebron

And you claim that Lebron had no help in 07', but he literally begged (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497452-Dwight-won-East-w-out-super-team-so-why-Lebron-get-props-for-winning-w-super-team&p=14435433&viewfull=1#post14435433) a young player that was producing prime Pippen stats (22/6/5 all-defender) to leave Arenas and join in Cleveland..

Lebron got his wish and then turned his pippen into a spot-up shooter - THAT'S ON LEBRON - his skill restriction to ball-domination hurt Hughes, while Hughes crushed it next to off-guard and elite jumpshooter Arenas.. Ultimately, Jordan won 6 titles next to a player like Hughes/Ingram/Bosh, while Lebron destroyed all these guys and mostly lost with them.

In addition to Hughes, Lebron had a 2-time all-star center, the future COY and the #3 defense - Jordan only 3-peated with help like this.. Ultimately, the only reason Lebron lost the 07' Finals is because he averaged 22 on 35% (the only 1st option in history that shot 35% in a playoff series), and his skill restriction to ball-domination destroyed his pippen (hughes).. that's the historical record and statistical fact.
You are comparing pre-prime LeBron to peak Kobe because that’s the only way you can have an argument lmao. No shit 08 Kobe>07 LeBron. Unfortunately for you LeBron improved a lot after 2007. The fact that you think Larry Hughes was ever good outside of that one fluke year he had is hilarious. Dude sucked.

[MadDog]

Dwight carried a team.

Ray Allen and Wade carried Lebron.

Lebron is beyond overrated.

Dwight was carried by his shooters in that series. Wade carried LeBron in the 2011 finals, but never afterward. More like the other way around. :confusedshrug: I don't like LeBron either, but don't be disingenuous.

[3ba11]

You are comparing pre-prime LeBron to peak Kobe because that’s the only way you can have an argument lmao. No shit 08 Kobe>07 LeBron. Unfortunately for you LeBron improved a lot after 2007.





Kobe was achieving elite stats while playing the best brand at the time (triangle), while Lebron's skillset sacrifices brand for personal stats (aka westbrooking)

Westbrooking accounts for Lebron's better stats, otherwise, he has no case over Kobe.. Kobe's superior team ceilings/Finals record are a result of superior skill - no restriction to ball-domination, aka on-ball/off-ball diversity and elite jumpshooting skill






The fact that you think Larry Hughes was ever good outside of that one fluke year he had is hilarious. Dude sucked.


In addition to achieving peak Pippen stats (22/6/5), Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', which is also Pippen's peak capability.

So if a misguided player like Hughes can achieve peak Pippen performance under the leadership of the 36th best off-guard ever and perennial goof-ball (Arenas), then what would Hughes do alongside the best off-guard ever and smartest player (MJ)?
'
lol

So MJ built himself a 22/6/5 all-defender, while Lebron was gifted one but his ball-dominance turned him into a spot-up shooter.

[MadDog]

In addition to achieving peak Pippen stats (22/6/5), Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', which is also Pippen's peak capability.

So if a misguided player like Hughes can achieve peak Pippen performance under the leadership of the 36th best off-guard ever and perennial goof-ball (Arenas), then what would Hughes do alongside the best off-guard ever and smartest player (MJ)?
'
lol

So MJ built himself a 22/6/5 all-defender, while Lebron was gifted one but his ball-dominance turned him into a spot-up shooter.

Hughes never came close to peak Pippen. Not unless you ignore running an offense and playing defense. I don't think that is what you're saying though. After all only a clueless person would imply that.

[3ba11]

Hughes never came close to peak Pippen. Not unless you ignore running an offense and playing defense. I don't think that is what you're saying though. After all only a clueless person would imply that.


Hughes grew up alongside goofball Arenas and ball-dominator Lebron - yet he still achieved Pippen stats a few years because prime pippen is a low bar - aka Pippen sucked and tons of guys achieved his numbers.. Heck, Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals or JR Smith got 18/8 on 60% in the 15' ECF..

So prime Pippen stats is a low bar.. Alongside Jordan, Hughes would easily make up the small gap that would get him to Pippen's low bar more consistently.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hughes never came close to peak Pippen. Not unless you ignore running an offense and playing defense. I don't think that is what you're saying though. After all only a clueless person would imply that.
He's also argued Boobie Gibson was better than Pippen. Dude is a certified clown :lol I'm surprised so many people actually take him seriously

[RRR3]

Kobe was achieving elite stats while playing the best brand at the time (triangle), while Lebron's skillset sacrifices brand for personal stats (aka westbrooking)

Westbrooking accounts for Lebron's better stats, otherwise, he has no case over Kobe.. Kobe's superior team ceilings/Finals record are a result of superior skill - no restriction to ball-domination, aka on-ball/off-ball diversity and elite jumpshooting skill





In addition to achieving peak Pippen stats (22/6/5), Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', which is also Pippen's peak capability.

So if a misguided player like Hughes can achieve peak Pippen performance under the leadership of the 36th best off-guard ever and perennial goof-ball (Arenas), then what would Hughes do alongside the best off-guard ever and smartest player (MJ)?
'
lol

So MJ built himself a 22/6/5 all-defender, while Lebron was gifted one but his ball-dominance turned him into a spot-up shooter.
Why do you give Kobe credit for a ring that was literally confirmed as rigged (2002) and a ring he won with role player stats in the finals? LeBron beat a 73 win team with one of the best finals performances ever Kobe was almost always trash in the finals lmao.

Why’d you bring up MJ at the end again? He’s like a pacifier to you, you can’t actually argue Kobe versus LeBron without running back to your MJ binky.

[MadDog]

Hughes grew up alongside goofball Arenas and ball-dominator Lebron - yet he still achieved Pippen stats a few years because prime pippen is a low bar - aka Pippen sucked and tons of guys achieved his numbers.. Heck, Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals or JR Smith got 18/8 on 60% in the 15' ECF..

So prime Pippen stats is a low bar.. Alongside Jordan, Hughes would easily make up the small gap that would get him to Pippen's low bar more consistently.

According to many here, you never saw Pippen or even Jordan play. Apparently you're a Kobe fan and only grew up on that era. Let me help you out here 3ball. PIPPEN WAS BETTER!


He's also argued Boobie Gibson was better than Pippen. Dude is a certified clown :lol I'm surprised so many people actually take him seriously

His Anti Pippen takes are beginning to come full circle. I'd just chalk it up to ignorance :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

He's also argued Boobie Gibson was better than Pippen. Dude is a certified clown :lol I'm surprised so many people actually take him seriously


I never argued that Boobie was better than Pippen - you're can't refute the points being made

However, now that you bring up Boobie - Boobie carried Lebron to the Finals in the closeout game of the 07' ECF, when Boobie dropped 31 and Lebron only had 20 on 3-11 shooting.. Pippen never carried or drastically out-produced Jordan in any big game.. Pippen is the worst clutch player and playoff performer of all-time - he was horrible in the 88-90' Playoffs and 93-03' Playoffs, while also having the X-man debacle in 92' ECSF..

(you probably aren't aware that Pippen had the worst-ever BPM, PER, WS/48 for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs, and among the worst-ever true shooting.. Then he lost the 94' and 95' 2nd Rounds by wetting the bed.. Then he averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs.. Again - he was bad for his entire playoff career except 91'.. aka the worst playoff performaer ever.

[RRR3]

Guys, don’t let him get away with trying to switch the convo to MJ. That’s his defense mechanism because he knows he can’t argue Kobe over LeBron with data. Keep hammering him on Kobe he has no actual responses there.

[3ba11]

Guys, don’t let him get away with trying to switch the convo to MJ. That’s his defense mechanism because he knows he can’t argue Kobe over LeBron with data. Keep hammering him on Kobe he has no actual responses there.


Lebron employs a westbrooking brand that produces more personal stats but needs more help loses more than Kobe's Kawhi brand of equal-opportunity (that can win with Lowry)

What would you prefer - a guy that can win with Lowry or a guy that needs super-teams... lol... :yaohappy:

[RRR3]

Lebron employs a westbrooking brand that produces more personal stats but needs more help loses more than Kobe's Kawhi brand of equal-opportunity (that can win with Lowry)

What would you prefer - a guy that can win with Lowry or a guy that needs super-teams... lol... :yaohappy:
LeBron won with his second option averaging less than 16 PPG. Kobe never did that. You lose again.

[3ba11]

2013 Lebron won with a Big 3 in the weak East and then needed his sidekick to average 20 in the Finals against the West, while Lebron averaged only 25 on worse efficiency (1a/1b)..

Lebron never won a Finals while averaging 10 more than his sidekick like Kobe (carry-jobs)


fixed

[RRR3]

Moving the goalposts as usual. Absolutely desperate. Kobe almost broke the rim in the finals with all his bricks meanwhile LeBron post 2011 has been excellent in every finals.

[3ba11]

Moving the goalposts as usual. Absolutely desperate. Kobe almost broke the rim in the finals with all his bricks meanwhile LeBron post 2011 has been excellent in every finals.


Teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games of the 2013 Finals (locked up by Diaw)

Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games and required Ray Allen to force Game 7.. Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor (25 on 44% overall for the series, aka not dominant at all)

So Lebron was bad in the 2013 Finals and also the 2015 Finals, where he was praised for playing exactly like Westbrook on offense and Kukoc on defense.

Then his super-team lost by record amount despite even odds in 2014 - they lost by a 13 ppg margin, so Lebron could've averaged 41 to three-peat like MJ did.. Or he could simply play a better brand of ball that didn't reduce Bosh to spot-up shooter..

Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, but fell to underdog or loser every year in the Finals, except the Ray Allen miracle.. his super-teams were so unfair from 2011-2016, that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

[SouBeachTalents]

Teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games of the 2013 Finals (locked up by Diaw)

Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games and required Ray Allen to force Game 7.. Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor (25 on 44% overall for the series, aka not dominant at all)

So Lebron was bad in the 2013 Finals and also the 2015 Finals, where he was praised for playing exactly like Westbrook on offense and Kukoc on defense.

Then his super-team lost by record amount despite even odds in 2014 - they lost by a 13 ppg margin, so Lebron could've averaged 41 to three-peat like MJ did.. Or he could simply play a better brand of ball that didn't reduce Bosh to spot-up shooter.. Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams were so unfair from 2011-2016, that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.
That's literally what Kobe averaged for his career in the Finals :lol Actually, he had worse efficiency

[3ba11]

That's literally what Kobe averaged for his career in the Finals :lol Actually, he had worse efficiency


25 on 44% with good brand of ball movement and teammate maximization = 5/7 (goat-tier team ceilings)

25 on 44% with shit brand of ball-dominance and teammate reduction/moar help always needed = 4/10 (worst-ever team ceiling)

[Axe]

It seems we are due for another attempt at doxxing op and his life, as his tendency to make agenda threads about kong remains very alarming these days.

[3ba11]

It seems we are due for another attempt at doxxing op and his life, as his tendency to make agenda threads about kong remains very alarming these days.


i've seen the light and truth about LeFraud so everything is so clear to me and the threads come easier than ever... LeFraud operates a ponzi scheme - his ball-dominant skillset reduces teammates to spot-up roles, so he always needs more help to offset the reduction (like a ponzi scheme that always needs more outside money flowing in to keep it afloat)...

the weak brand and resulting weak Finals record/team ceiling only intensifies the cries for moar help.. it's quite sad, really

[Axe]

i've seen the light and truth about LeFraud so everything is so clear to me and the threads come easier than ever... LeFraud operates a ponzi scheme - his ball-dominant skillset reduces teammates to spot-up roles, so he always needs more help to offset the reduction (like a ponzi scheme that always needs more outside money flowing in to keep it afloat)...

the weak brand and resulting weak Finals record/team ceiling only intensifies the cries for moar help.. it's quite sad, really
Says the guy who claimed to have dunked over 6'9 zach randolph before.

[SouBeachTalents]

25 on 44% with good brand of ball movement and teammate maximization = 5/7 (goat-tier team ceilings)

25 on 44% with shit brand of ball-dominance and teammate reduction/moar help always needed = 4/10 (worst-ever team ceiling)
You gotta love how LeBron gets discredited for "only" outscoring his 2nd option by 3-6 ppg in the Finals, yet Kobe gets full credit while getting outscored by 10-20 ppg in the Finals during his first 3 titles :lol Literally the same exact argument he uses to also discredit Pippen lol

[3ba11]

You gotta love how LeBron gets discredited for "only" outscoring his 2nd option by 3-6 ppg in the Finals, yet Kobe gets full credit while getting outscored by 10-20 ppg in the Finals during his first 3 titles :lol Literally the same exact argument he also uses to discredit Pippen lol


That's why we compare peak stats to see their capability - Kobe's peak stats prove that he was an elite 1st option that was playing 2nd option alongside Shaq, while Pippen's peak stats show that he was a true 2nd option that always got non-premium stats regardless of role.

So again, Kobe was an elite 1st option that played 2nd option under Shaq, just like every championship team in history, aka every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - so only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)..

[Axe]

Fyi kobe wouldn't have gone 5/7 if not for shaq. Too bad that back then, it seems he was more concerned about being creative on making his own shots rather than winning. How selfish. You can't become an alpha on your team immediately if you don't know how to listen or follow orders of your superiors. During the shaq-kobe dynasty, phil jackson also told him that the time will come that he'll shine as the best player on his team someday. Sadly, kobe demonstrated his impatience which to led to his feud with shaq. With what happened last year, he may be out of our reach forever but there are testaments to these because of 'the last season' dedicated to him, the black mamba.

[3ba11]

Fyi kobe wouldn't have gone 5/7 if not for shaq. Too bad that back then, it seems he was more concerned about being creative on making his own shots rather than winning. How selfish. You can't become an alpha on your team immediately if you don't know how to listen or follow orders of your superiors. During the shaq-kobe dynasty, phil jackson also told him that the time will come that he'll shine as the best player on his team someday. Sadly, kobe demonstrated his impatience which to led to his feud with shaq. With what happened last year, he may be out of our reach forever but there are testaments to these because of 'the last season' dedicated to him, the black mamba.


Shaq needed Kobe or a Kobe-caliber player to win like Wade

So Shaq needed an elite 1st option sidekick to win, while Kobe only needed a true 2nd option like Pau

every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - so only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)..

[Axe]

Shaq needed Kobe or a Kobe-caliber player to win like Wade

So Shaq needed an elite 1st option sidekick to win, while Kobe only needed a true 2nd option like Pau

every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - so only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)..
This is akin to saying that kobe and mj needed a hof coach to win in the finals. Every successful star needs useful teammates or masterminds to succeed because after all, basketball is a team game. Don't be a retard.

[MadDog]

You gotta love how LeBron gets discredited for "only" outscoring his 2nd option by 3-6 ppg in the Finals, yet Kobe gets full credit while getting outscored by 10-20 ppg in the Finals during his first 3 titles :lol Literally the same exact argument he uses to also discredit Pippen lol

Good points. 3ball is awfully inconsistent. Seen him argue in favor of Jordan using stats like BPM\PER\WS48. With LeBron & Kobe though these numbers are ignored lol. Shaq getting no credit is a bad joke.

[3ba11]

Good points. 3ball is awfully inconsistent. I've seen him argue in favor of Jordan using stats like BPM\PER\WS48. So why are those same numbers ignored with LeBron & Kobe?


You ignored my response to SouBeach

The other thread title says to look at peak stats to determine if someone is a 2nd option or 1st option because 15 ppg from a 1st option = deferring, while 15 ppg from a 2nd option = normal capability.

So again, Kobe was an elite 1st option that played 2nd option under Shaq, just like nearly every championship team in history, aka nearly every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - so only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)..

[MadDog]

I don't get it. Why would "looking at their peak" be relevant to the years in question. :confusedshrug: 00 Kobe was nowhere near the player he was at his best.

[3ba11]

I don't get it. Why would "looking at their peak" be relevant to the years in question. :confusedshrug: 00 Kobe was nowhere near the player he was at his best.


00' Kobe was capable of elite 1st option stats without Shaq, like say, 27-32 ppg or something on a weak team - but he was deferring to Shaq and therefore averaged 20 ppg as a young playier that was still figuring out how to produce while deferring.

So again, looking at Kobe's peak stats gives us an idea of what he could do in 2000 while deferring to Shaq - everyone agress that 00' Kobe was already among the most talented and best scorers in the league, if not the best already, and his peak stats confirm this 1st option capability.

Accordingly, Kobe was an elite 1st option that played 2nd option under Shaq, just like nearly every championship team in history, aka nearly every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - so only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)..

[MadDog]

00' Kobe was capable of elite 1st option stats without Shaq, like say, 27-32 ppg or something on a weak team - but he was deferring to Shaq and therefore averaged 20 ppg as a young playier that was still figuring out how to produce while deferring.

Ultimately, looking at Kobe's peak stats gives us an idea of what he could do in 2000 while deferring to Shaq - everyone agress that 00' Kobe was already among the most talented and best scorers in the league, if not the best already

So again, Kobe was an elite 1st option that played 2nd option under Shaq, just like nearly every championship team in history, aka nearly every champion in history had an elite 1st option or FMVP as their 2nd option, except 94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, 19' Kawhi, and MJ/Kobe's 8 rings as top dog - so only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)..

Alright thanks for clearing that up. Here's the thing though. Most second options will score more and defer less without their 1st option. I don't disagree that Kobe COULD HAVE put up 27 a game, but beyond that is hearsay. Like Southbeachtalents already pointed out, you're ignoring the argument in 2000 that you use for Jordan & Pippen. Dirk & Jason Terry is probably most accurate due to point disparity. Dirk scored 10 more points than Terry - the same number of points playoff Shaq had over Kobe.

[3ba11]

Alright thanks for clearing that up. Here's the thing though. Most second options will score more and defer less without their 1st option. I don't disagree that Kobe COULD HAVE put up 27 a game, but beyond that is hearsay. Like Southbeachtalents already pointed out, you're ignoring the argument in 2000 that you use for Jordan & Pippen. Dirk & Jason Terry is probably most accurate due to point disparity. Dirk scored 10 more points than Terry - the same number of points playoff Shaq had over Kobe.


Kobe is a 1st option based on peak stats, while Terry is a 2nd option like Pippen - so Dirk is on the short list of guys that won with true 2nd options, just like 94' Hakeem, and 19' Kawhi.. But only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (8 times)

[MadDog]

Kobe is a 1st option based on peak stats, while Terry is a 2nd option like Pippen - so Dirk is on the short list of guys that won with true 2nd options, just like 94' Hakeem, and 19' Kawhi.. But only MJ/Kobe won more than once with true 2nd options (8 times)

But Kobe performed like a 2nd option in 2000. Saying that he "COULD" score 27 or more might be true, but its speculation. It never happened. Your argument would be better if you pushed it forward a year or two. 01\02 Kobe is closer to your school of thought.

[3ba11]

But Kobe performed like a 2nd option in 2000. Saying that he "COULD" score 27 or more might be true, but its speculation. It never happened. Your argument would be better if you pushed it a year or two. 01\02 Kobe are closer to that school of thought.


Most titles are won with an elite 1st option like Kareem, Curry, or Kobe playing 2nd option, and therefore averaging less than their 1st option stats..

That's the whole point - most titles are won with elite 1st options at sidekick, not true 2nd options like Pippen, Pau, or Rip (winning sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)

Again - very few guys have won with true 2nd options and the only guys that did it more than once are MJ/Kobe (8 times).. 19' Kawhi, 11' Dirk and 94' Hakeem are the 1-time winners with true 2nd options.

[MadDog]

Most titles are won with an elite 1st option like Kareem, Curry, or Kobe playing 2nd option, and therefore averaging less than their 1st option stats..

That's the whole point - most titles are won with elite 1st options at sidekick, not true 2nd options like Pippen, Pau, or Rip (winning sidekicks that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP)

Again - very few guys have won with true 2nd options and the only guys that did it more than once are MJ/Kobe (8 times).. 19' Kawhi, 11' Dirk and 94' Hakeem are the 1-time winners with true 2nd options.

So its "most" titles? If that were true then why mention Dirk & Hakeem's rings and not Shaq's? Whether or not you agree, Kobe was a true 2nd option in 00. If he was a true number one then he would've averaged numbers to back that up. :confusedshrug: Just like he did a year later.

[3ba11]

So its "most" titles? If that were true then why mention Dirk & Hakeem's rings and not Shaq's? Whether or not you agree, Kobe was a true 2nd option in 00. If he was a true number one then he would averaged numbers to back it up. :confusedshrug: Just like he did a year later.


94' Hakeem and 11 Dirk had true 2nd options as sidekick (horry and terry), while 00' Shaq had elite 1st option playing sidekick (kobe)

Again, it's rare for someone to win with a true 2nd option like Terry or Pippen (who never achieve elite 1st option stats or FMVP)... Most rings are won with an elite 1st option playing sidekick (someone that can achieve elite 1st option stats or fmvp)

[MadDog]

94' Hakeem had horry as sidekick (true 2nd option)

11' Dirk had terry as sidekick (true 2nd option)


00' Shaq had kobe as sidekick (elite 1st option playing 2nd option)

Kobe was a true number 2 with Shaq, and that is all that matters. Your theory holds more weight the following year.

[3ba11]

Kobe was a true number 2 with Shaq, and that is all that matters. Your theory holds more weight the following year.


You admitted that 00' Kobe would've averaged 27+ as 1st option

That makes him a 1st option that was simply deferring to Shaq, just like most champions that have elite 1st options playing sidekick

[StrongLurk]

Yo the Kobe standom is more obvious than ever...wow lol. 3ball is not an MJ stan, he is actually the most bitter Kobe stan probably on the planet and uses MJ as a proxy to have an easier time tearing down Lebron.

Simply amazing, we already knew 3ball wasn't an actually bball or NBA fan, but a deranged stan...and now the 3ball account is permanently exposed.

Every Kobe stan does the same thing. They completely overhype young Kobe while completely ignoring Shaq on basically all accounts, and then become raging stans when discussing Kobe's second half of his prime (06-13) due to all of the Lebron comparisons...it's the same symptoms every single time.

[TheCorporation]

Yo the Kobe standom is more obvious than ever...wow lol. 3ball is not an MJ stan, he is actually the most bitter Kobe stan probably on the planet and uses MJ as a proxy to have an easier time tearing down Lebron.

Simply amazing, we already knew 3ball wasn't an actually bball or NBA fan, but a deranged stan...and now the 3ball account is permanently exposed.

Every Kobe stan does the same thing. They completely overhype young Kobe while completely ignoring Shaq on basically all accounts, and then become raging stans when discussing Kobe's second half of his prime (06-13) due to all of the Lebron comparisons...it's the same symptoms every single time.

+1

3KobeBall is done

What a top 12 fraud, I shall now name him 12beBall

[RRR3]

Yo the Kobe standom is more obvious than ever...wow lol. 3ball is not an MJ stan, he is actually the most bitter Kobe stan probably on the planet and uses MJ as a proxy to have an easier time tearing down Lebron.

Simply amazing, we already knew 3ball wasn't an actually bball or NBA fan, but a deranged stan...and now the 3ball account is permanently exposed.

Every Kobe stan does the same thing. They completely overhype young Kobe while completely ignoring Shaq on basically all accounts, and then become raging stans when discussing Kobe's second half of his prime (06-13) due to all of the Lebron comparisons...it's the same symptoms every single time.
Poor Snivelball has to create fantasy scenarios to even begin to compare Kobe to LeBron. All the arguments he used for MJ go out the window :lol

[Hey Yo]

25 on 44% with good brand of ball movement and teammate maximization = 5/7 (goat-tier team ceilings)

25 on 44% with shit brand of ball-dominance and teammate reduction/moar help always needed = 4/10 (worst-ever team ceiling)

4 rings >>>> Kobe's 2

[MadDog]

You admitted that 00' Kobe would've averaged 27+ as 1st option

That makes him a 1st option that was simply deferring to Shaq, just like most champions that have elite 1st options playing sidekick

You misread. I said he could have, but that its speculation. The fact Kobe did it a season later leads me to think he couldn't in 00. Not without reckless abandon. Since numbers are what you go by, and how you judge LeBron/MJ, then Kobe should be held to that exact standard. :confusedshrug: I still don't get how you can up Dirk's title and not Shaq's

[ShawkFactory]

You admitted that 00' Kobe would've averaged 27+ as 1st option

That makes him a 1st option that was simply deferring to Shaq, just like most champions that have elite 1st options playing sidekick

You think that scoring output is often contingent on role/team?