The difference between Kobe, Vince, and McGrady

[Im Still Ballin]

There's this notion that Vince and McGrady were both more naturally talented than Kobe. They were both taller, longer-armed, and weighed more. Some say more athletic, too; I'm not sure if I agree -- athleticism is more than dunking.

The narrative is that Kobe made up for those comparative shortcomings by working harder. I'm not quite sure if that's true.

Kobe was undoubtedly in a better situation than the other two. Playing in LA, alongside Shaq put him front-and-center; all the eyes were on him. Playing with the big man also made things easier on the court; I'm sure Vince and Tracy would've done well in his place.

But to suggest that circumstance was the only difference between them? I don't agree. Kobe proved himself post-Shaq; he took his game to new heights.

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

Kobe probably worked harder, but I think he was simply a greater talent, to begin with.

What do you think?

1999-2000 to 2006-2007 season

Kobe:

STATS
- 39.9 minutes per game
- 28.3 points // 5.9 rebounds // 5.3 assists // 1.7 steals // 0.6 blocks // 3.2 turnovers
- 45.5 FG% // 33.8 3PT% // 84.3 FT%
- 24.7 PER // 55.6 TS% // .199 WS48 // +5.8 BPM
- +6.3 on/off



SHOOTING BY DISTANCE
48.1 2PT%
0-3ft = 63.4%
3-10ft = 42.3%
10-16ft = 42.4%
16-3pt = 41.2%



ACCOLADES
3 Championships
8x All-Star
2x All-Star MVP
18x Player of the Week
8x Player of the Month
5x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Defensive 1st Team
2x All-Defensive 2nd Team

MVP SHARES
1999-00 NBA 0.002 (12)
2000-01 NBA 0.009 (9)
2001-02 NBA 0.078 (5)
2002-03 NBA 0.417 (3)
2003-04 NBA 0.172 (5)
2005-06 NBA 0.386 (4)
2006-07 NBA 0.404 (3)


Vince:

STATS
- 37.8 minutes per game
- 24.6 points // 5.4 rebounds // 4.2 assists // 1.3 steals // 0.8 blocks // 2.4 turnovers
- 44.6 FG% // 37.9 3PT% // 79.4 FT%
- 22.2 PER // 53.6 TS% // .158 WS48 // +5.1 BPM
- +10.7 on/off



SHOOTING BY DISTANCE
46.4 2PT%
0-3ft = 59.8%
3-10ft = 40.4%
10-16ft = 38.6%
16-3pt = 41.0%



ACCOLADES
8x All-Star
10x Player of the Week
3x Player of the Month
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team

MVP SHARES
1999-00 NBA 0.042 (10)
2000-01 NBA 0.006 (11)
2004-05 NBA 0.002 (13)


McGrady:

STATS
- 37.8 minutes per game
- 25.3 points // 6.6 rebounds // 5.1 assists // 1.5 steals // 1.0 blocks // 2.6 turnovers
- 43.9 FG% // 34.4 3PT% // 75.4 FT%
- 24.4 PER // 52.7 TS% // .177 WS48 // +6.7 BPM
- +7.2 on/off



SHOOTING BY DISTANCE
46.5 2PT%
0-3ft = 58.9%
3-10ft = 38.4%
10-16ft = 38.9%
16-3pt = 42.1%



ACCOLADES
7x All-Star
10x Player of the Week
4x Player of the Month
2x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team

MVP SHARES
2000-01 NBA 0.052 (6)
2001-02 NBA 0.310 (4)
2002-03 NBA 0.359 (4)
2004-05 NBA 0.035 (7)
2006-07 NBA 0.085 (6)

[Elosha]

Yes, Kobe was more naturally talented then both, although McGrady in his prime could definitely challenge him. Vince was a superb player, but way too inconsistent to be matched up with someone of Kobe's greatness.

One thing people don't realize is that Kobe was overall quicker than both of those player and had a more explosive first step. That is so important in basketball for athletic two guards. Kobe obviously had a great vertical leap, but it was not quite as good as either Carter or McGrady. But he could get past either of them whenever he wanted based on his extremely good ball-handling and incredible first step. He was also likely quicker than both of them laterally both on offense and defense. MJ, Kobe, and Dwyane Wade are the quickest elite shooting guards I have ever seen, and they could routinely blow past point guards, shooting guards and small forwards. It didn't matter who you put in front of them, they would almost always have a quickness advantage, and if they didn't, they would still have the strength to overwhelm their opponent.

Again, McGrady and Carter were not slouches when it came to quickness ( McGrady was quicker than Vince Carter) but they could not compare with someone like Kobe. And this is an area of athleticism that is so extremely important but often overlooked.

[Phoenix]

Talent is a hard thing to quantify. That said, I've been watching alot of early 2000s Tmac highlights and he made scoring look easier than what Kobe was doing. Kobe had some advantages, quicker first step and better laterally, but Tmac was a legit 6'8-6'9 with a better vert and wingspan. I kind of see 03 Tmac stylistically as a slighter shorter Durant but with better handle, better athleticism, better slasher and worse shooting( though shooting for peak Tmac was no weakness by any stretch, dude would straight up let it fly right in your face with zero fukks given). It's pretty easy to see why Tmac and Kobe was a conversation at one point. I notice by 05 his shot got a lot flatter, more of a line drive, and with it his efficiency( I imagine adjustments made due to his chronic back). But dude when healthy was crazy gifted, when Kobe was scoring 35ppg in 2006.... if you take 2003 Tmac and put him in that year on a shit team? He's probably dropping 35 too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy7Ct72R0iI

Remember that Kobe the very next year, with Shaq on-board to take some of the pressure, struggled against this team. People give this guy shit for not getting out of the first round, but his career had he managed to stay healthy would have been special( or moreso than it was). I firmly believe that.

[pandiani17]

I would say two big things separated Kobe from other great SG's of that era:

1-He played with prime Shaq. Quite probably T-Mac, AI or Vince would have also threepeated with him as teammate.
2-He had a much stronger WILL than them. Although they were extremely talented, remember that Vince only advanced to the second round of the post-season in 2001 as the man, only once. T-Mac never won a playoff series. And they were playing in a very weak conference. These facts should be enough to see that the comparison between Kobe and the cousins is absurd, they can only be compared talent-wise, once you go beyond that it is quite clear Kobe is head and shoulders above them.

[Phoenix]

I would say two big things separated Kobe from other great SG's of that era:

1-He played with prime Shaq. Quite probably T-Mac, AI or Vince would have also threepeated with him as teammate.
2-He had a much stronger WILL than them. Although they were extremely talented, remember that Vince only advanced to the second round of the post-season in 2001 as the man, only once. T-Mac never won a playoff series. And they were playing in a very weak conference. These facts should be enough to see that the comparison between Kobe and the cousins is absurd, they can only be compared talent-wise, once you go beyond that it is quite clear Kobe is head and shoulders above them.

Yeah but you take 2003 Kobe and put him on the 03 Magic, you think he's doing anything with that team that Tmac didn't?

That said, Kobe mentally was tougher than both (will as you call it) and was just a more fierce and tenacious competitor. I don't buy into the argument that Tmac or Vince with Shaq 3peats in that 2000-2002 space, though I do believe Tmac could have gotten at least one in that situation, probably 2002. Also I think Tmac and Shaq possibly mesh a bit better chemistry-wise, by 2001 Kobe was battling Shaq for the alpha role.

[FultzNationRISE]

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

Kobe probably worked harder, but I think he was simply a greater talent, to begin with.

What do you think?

1999-2000 to 2006-2007 season




Anthropomorphic measurements?


https://c.tenor.com/5Er9n9AWC7MAAAAM/kobe-bryant-what.gif

I know you got some impressive anthropomorphic measurements yourself, but... that doesnt make any sense bro :lol

[j3lademaster]

Yeah but you take 2003 Kobe and put him on the 03 Magic, you think he's doing anything with that team that Tmac didn't?

That said, Kobe mentally was tougher than both (will as you call it) and was just a more fierce and tenacious competitor. I don't buy into the argument that Tmac or Vince with Shaq 3peats in that 2000-2002 space, though I do believe Tmac could have gotten at least one in that situation, probably 2002. Also I think Tmac and Shaq possibly mesh a bit better chemistry-wise, by 2001 Kobe was battling Shaq for the alpha role.Tmac's 03 squad is as bad if not worse than Kobe's 06 squad, so yeah to your point it'll be tough for Kobe to win a playoff series with that.


The narrative is that Kobe made up for those comparative shortcomings by working harder. I'm not quite sure if that's true.
Kobe definitely worked harder than just about anyone. Listen to Bosh's hof speech about playing with Kobe in 08. He set his clock super early so he can be the first one at breakfast to set an example and Kobe's already down there eating after a full workout. Kobe slept like 4 hours a night and was a complete maniac. And it showed in how his skills advanced from the early 2k's to 10 years later. He eventually became arguably the most skilled player ever. No one has a left hand like him and no one had footwork in the paint like him. If you want to argue Curry's a bit more skilled with his handles and shooting? fine. As long as you acknowledge Kobe's up there I won't have a problem.


But to suggest that circumstance was the only difference between them? I don't agree. Kobe proved himself post-Shaq; he took his game to new heights.
Do you consider injury circumstance? If Tmac played right now when load management is prevalent he may have a better career. He played through back spasms in 04 and injuries happen mostly when athletes are either fatigued or hurt somewhere and using other muscles to try to compensate for movement. Who knows how good a healthy 27 year old Tmac would have gotten?


I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.
I think plenty acknowledge Kobe's athleticism. He only falls short when we compare him to the likes of Lebron and MJ. I think it's easy to see from the vid Phoenix posted on how insane Tmac was. Look at where he takes off from for an up and under layup. How smooth and effortless it looked. Circa 03 was when Tmac and Kobe were close skill-wise and Tmac had a 6'9-6'10" frame. Kobe became better through hard work and possessing better mental toughness.

[Phoenix]

Tmac's 03 squad is as bad if not worse than Kobe's 06 squad, so yeah to your point it'll be tough for Kobe to win a playoff series with that.


Kobe definitely worked harder than just about anyone. Listen to Bosh's hof speech about playing with Kobe in 08. He set his clock super early so he can be the first one at breakfast to set an example and Kobe's already down there eating after a full workout. Kobe slept like 4 hours a night and was a complete maniac. And it showed in how his skills advanced from the early 2k's to 10 years later. He eventually became arguably the most skilled player ever. No one has a left hand like him and no one had footwork in the paint like him. If you want to argue Curry's a bit more skilled with his handles and shooting? fine. As long as you acknowledge Kobe's up there I won't have a problem.


Do you consider injury circumstance? If Tmac played right now when load management is prevalent he may have a better career. He played through back spasms in 04 and injuries happen mostly when athletes are either fatigued or hurt somewhere and using other muscles to try to compensate for movement. Who knows how good a healthy 27 year old Tmac would have gotten?


I think plenty acknowledge Kobe's athleticism. He only falls short when we compare him to the likes of Lebron and MJ. I think it's easy to see from the vid Phoenix posted on how insane Tmac was. Look at where he takes off from for an up and under layup. How smooth and effortless it looked. Circa 03 was when Tmac and Kobe were close skill-wise and Tmac had a 6'9-6'10" frame. Kobe became better through hard work and possessing better mental toughness.

Tmac would have been 26-27 in the 06 season when everyone exploded. If healthy, suffice to say he would have received the same 'boost' everyone else did after the rule changes allowed greater freedom of movement on the perimeter. His game would have ignited with today's rules.

[CTbasketball92]

Yeah the notion that those guys were "more talented" was always kinda off base. Kobe was, first of all, a lot more durable than both. But as far as game style, his agility/ability to change directions at near-top speed was on another level from those guys, as was his first step. He could get really low to the ground and, as good as VC and TMac were with body control, Kobe was at MJ levels with his finesse and overall balance. He's also got a level of footwork and aggression neither of them liked to or were able to play with. TMac was actually a very substandard finisher given his size and bounce.

[WhiteKyrie]

And this is an area of athleticism that is so extremely important but often overlooked.
Bingo. It’s extremely important. There is other aspects to athleticism, like vertical, hang time, first step burst, hand eye coordination, body control, footwork and durability. Based on those parameters 1) Jordan 2) Kobe 3) Wade when taking all that into account. Granted. I always considered McGrady and even VC to be more Small Forwards than shooting guards.

[j3lademaster]

Yeah the notion that those guys were "more talented" was always kinda off base. Kobe was, first of all, a lot more durable than both. But as far as game style, his agility/ability to change directions at near-top speed was on another level from those guys, as was his first step. He could get really low to the ground and, as good as VC and TMac were with body control, Kobe was at MJ levels with his finesse and overall balance. He's also got a level of footwork and aggression neither of them liked to or were able to play with. TMac was actually a very substandard finisher given his size and bounce.I can agree with change of direction, but Tmac's first step was right there with Kobe's. And as far as body control and touch around the rim, VC had jelly layups to give anyone a run:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXyC_TK6gLw&t=147s

[Bronbron23]

There's this notion that Vince and McGrady were both more naturally talented than Kobe. They were both taller, longer-armed, and weighed more. Some say more athletic, too; I'm not sure if I agree -- athleticism is more than dunking.

The narrative is that Kobe made up for those comparative shortcomings by working harder. I'm not quite sure if that's true.

Kobe was undoubtedly in a better situation than the other two. Playing in LA, alongside Shaq put him front-and-center; all the eyes were on him. Playing with the big man also made things easier on the court; I'm sure Vince and Tracy would've done well in his place.

But to suggest that circumstance was the only difference between them? I don't agree. Kobe proved himself post-Shaq; he took his game to new heights.

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

Kobe probably worked harder, but I think he was simply a greater talent, to begin with.

What do you think?

1999-2000 to 2006-2007 season

Kobe:






Vince:






McGrady:

Yeah kobe was more talented plus he was much better defensively

[MadDog]

Defense & mental. Kobe's in-game iq & mental allowed him to push barriers. Sure Kobe was talented, but work ethic is what elevated him. Kobe and Bird's skills were so great, I always think of that "hard work beats talent" phrase. Those two embody that quote.

[bizil]

I consider Mamba the most skilled player of all time when you combine scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. T Mac IN TERMS of offense is way up on that list as well. Things he could do at 6'8-6'9 was NEVER really seen before when he hit the scene. We had never seen a player that height with that type of skill, athletic ability, and positional versatility as a package. Just think Mamba's edge in defense AND focus was the difference. NOT SAYING T Mac was a slouch in those areas though. MJ, Kobe, T Mac, Wade, and West are the top five SG's ever peak wise in my opinion. If u consider T Mac a SF, I would ONLY take Bron, Bird, and KD over FOR SURE over him on a peak level. With all due respect to Vince, he's more in that 2nd tier of the great SG's peak-prime wise. Just think u got guys WHO COMBINED great scoring AND great all around ability on a level he never did. Vince still was a very good all around player. And of course was a great scorer!

[SaintzFury13]

None of this really matters because no matter who you argue is better offensively, Kobe was still leagues above both of them defensively so...

[ScottieQuitting]

None of this really matters because no matter who you argue is better offensively, Kobe was still leagues above both of them defensively so...

Fax. Big facts. I respect somebody who can lock down defensively. Plus he was just miles more mentally tough and physically durable than those other guys.

Vince was soft like wet flowers.

McGrady was better than his cousin. But both of those guys at some point, would roll over and cede dominance.

Guys like Kobe? Wade? Not so easy.

[CTbasketball92]

I can agree with change of direction, but Tmac's first step was right there with Kobe's. And as far as body control and touch around the rim, VC had jelly layups to give anyone a run:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXyC_TK6gLw&t=147s

Yeah TMac had a great first step for sure. I think Kobe just had an elasticity of movement that is super hard to replicate once you get above 6'4." Kobe moved like he was Kyrie w. the agility and his handle and his creativity when it came to shot creation, with the pivots, the balance, the shiftiness and the overall ability to contort his body in impossible ways. So flexible. Kobe is right up there with MJ for most coordinated NBA player ever (with probably Wade, Kyrie and lowkey someone like Nash). That body control/agility is a very, very underrated, yet endlessly applicable form of athleticism. VC and TMac definitely had it to a degree, especially in the air, but on the ground it was a different story, because it's hard to move that way in general, but at a legit shooting guard's size is even crazier.

[ScottieQuitting]

That’s why Harden’s athleticism is low key slept on. Is he a leaper? No. But everything else is quite good athletically. Especially at his size and he’s anywhere in that 4 - 6 best SG ever, depending on how you rank him alongside with the non MJ / Kobe / Wade guys like West, Drexler and Iverson.

[eliteballer]

I can agree with change of direction, but Tmac's first step was right there with Kobe's. And as far as body control and touch around the rim, VC had jelly layups to give anyone a run:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXyC_TK6gLw&t=147s

No, Kobe was faster than him.

Every time they matched up one on one in 03 McGrady needed screens, and Kobe didn't.

One other thing Kobe and Jordan had over a guy like Carter was they needed 0 time to "gather" on their jumps. They just exploded in an instant, where Carter seemed to need more time.

[2much_knowledge]

Awesome thread. Work ethic and defense. Also better help

One key that people don't mention is good health.

Carter exploded in 2000, even better in 2001 and was playing his best basketball in half of 2002 before the injury. So we will never know the full potential of his game if he kept his toronto athleticism in new jersey

Tmac injuries as well

Kobe was healthy in those years

[ShawkFactory]

Tmac was actually a fantastic defensive player earlier on. Once 2003 or so hit where his team was bullshit and he had to do everything offensively he took a step back on that end. And then the back stuff did the rest.

But he just didn’t have the pure psychopathic desire that Kobe did.

Vince didn’t have the handles or first step that either of the other guys had. But he was a better shooter than both, and probably the smoothest pure athlete

[Kenny Griffin]

McGrady is different. Carter and Kobe are similar, but Carter just never had the players Kobe did. And also, Vince never had refs rigging games for the Raptors and Nets, whereas without the refs, kobe has half the championships he had. Maybe none.

Lakers over Blazers.

Lakers over Kings.

Refs won those games and Lakers should have never advanced.

you will die here crying about kobe

[RachlNicholsazz]

Don't forget besides being stronger and quicker than the cousins, Kobe was light years more intelligent although that Colorado thing wasn't his best moment. Tmac bought a Lamborghini, couldn't figure out how to drive stick so had it converted to an automatic.

[Phoenix]

No, Kobe was faster than him.

Every time they matched up one on one in 03 McGrady needed screens, and Kobe didn't.

One other thing Kobe and Jordan had over a guy like Carter was they needed 0 time to "gather" on their jumps. They just exploded in an instant, where Carter seemed to need more time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VbcBkfokiI

Here's a 2002/3 season matchup. Sometimes TMac scored just shooting over the top, a few times he used screens ( as did Kobe in a couple of instances). Kobe had the lateral movement to limit Tmac's slashing but if Tmac just decided to pull up and shoot with his height, elevation and length then Kobe( nor anyone else, really) is fukking with that. Any Tmac/Kobe matchup( like this one) that has Shaq on the court for the Lakers isn't exactly an apples-to-apples mano a mano, anyway.

[TheGoatest]

The 3 biggest differences:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wIgAAOSwzYNdFRrU/s-l300.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510V8DyEnAL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/52/10/6052102ba0ad261a1ea89774b64dcb5b.jpg

In the post-Shaq, but pre-Kwame for Pau trade seasons Kobe was very similar to the other two.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VbcBkfokiI

Here's a 2002/3 season matchup. Sometimes TMac scored just shooting over the top, a few times he used screens ( as did Kobe in a couple of instances). Kobe had the lateral movement to limit Tmac's slashing but if Tmac just decided to pull up and shoot with his height, elevation and length then Kobe( nor anyone else, really) is fukking with that. Any Tmac/Kobe matchup( like this one) that has Shaq on the court for the Lakers isn't exactly an apples-to-apples mano a mano, anyway.

Those are highlights. Watch the game and you’ll see McGrady had to keep using screens to get around him. Also watch their 04 matchup where Kobe completely outplayed him on both ends.

[Phoenix]

Those are highlights. Watch the game and you’ll see McGrady had to keep using screens to get around him. Also watch their 04 matchup where Kobe completely outplayed him on both ends.

Of course they're highlights. They're showing the occurrences where they interacted with each other. I'm not even disagreeing with you fundamentally, I'm just saying that 'every time Kobe defended Tmac he needed a screen' as you said above is not accurate ( that's assuming you didn't intend to be taken literally, but one can rarely tell on this forum) and all I need is a highlight video showing specific plays between the two to prove this. I don't need to watch the entire game in this case if I'm specifically looking to validate ( or invalidate) your claim that Tmac needed a screen 'every time' Kobe defended him.

[ZenMaster]

Kobe was just too good.

[paksat]

Of course they're highlights. They're showing the occurrences where they interacted with each other. I'm not even disagreeing with you fundamentally, I'm just saying that 'every time Kobe defended Tmac he needed a screen' as you said above is not accurate ( that's assuming you didn't intend to be taken literally, but one can rarely tell on this forum) and all I need is a highlight video showing specific plays between the two to prove this. I don't need to watch the entire game in this case if I'm specifically looking to validate ( or invalidate) your claim that Tmac needed a screen 'every time' Kobe defended him.

apparently kobe can't fight through a screen either I guess?

this is just silly to say that tmac needed screens to score on kobe anyway, I can remember one instance right off the top of my head where tmac did a fake spin and kobe fell so hard for the fake that both his hands ended up hitting the floor.

tmac doesn't have trouble scoring on ANYONE, let alone kobe

[eliteballer]

Of course they're highlights. They're showing the occurrences where they interacted with each other. I'm not even disagreeing with you fundamentally, I'm just saying that 'every time Kobe defended Tmac he needed a screen' as you said above is not accurate ( that's assuming you didn't intend to be taken literally, but one can rarely tell on this forum) and all I need is a highlight video showing specific plays between the two to prove this. I don't need to watch the entire game in this case if I'm specifically looking to validate ( or invalidate) your claim that Tmac needed a screen 'every time' Kobe defended him.

You're pointlessly splitting hairs by taking it literally. Go watch that entire 03 game. McGrady consistently needed screens to shake Kobe on offense, and Kobe did not need screens to blow past McGrady on the other end


apparently kobe can't fight through a screen either I guess?

this is just silly to say that tmac needed screens to score on kobe anyway, I can remember one instance right off the top of my head where tmac did a fake spin and kobe fell so hard for the fake that both his hands ended up hitting the floor.

tmac doesn't have trouble scoring on ANYONE, let alone kobe

McGrady stepped on Kobe's foot on that spin.

I'm talking strictly about McGrady's ability to beat Kobe off the dribble in that game, he couldn't.

[Phoenix]

You're pointlessly splitting hairs by taking it literally. Go watch that entire 03 game. McGrady consistently needed screens to shake Kobe on offense, and Kobe did not need screens to blow past McGrady on the other end




No I'm not, that's expressly why I asked 'am I to take that literally?'. If you don't want such ( and I can't separate what is literal and what is supposed to be somewhat hyperbolic on this forum, especially when dealing with hardcore fans for which you are a known Kobe one), then just say 'Tmac often needed screens to score on Kobe', which wouldn't be a statement I would question much. Or, it's a free society and express yourself however the hell you want, but you'll be challenged as to how literal you intend your comment to be. That's how shit works.

Again, if that highlight video is supposed to show every case of Tmac scoring on Kobe or vice versa.....then I don't need to watch the entire game which is going to have lots of plays not involving those two that are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Tmac may have needed screens at times( I counted 3 occurrences there off memory) but he also shot up over the top of him multiple times and scored that you're not acknowledging including the one where he faked him out of his shoes. You're pretending like that wasn't one of the first highlights in the vid. Tmac was taller and could shoot over the top, Kobe was quicker and that enabled him to limit penetration. You're not bringing new information to the table.

[Indian guy]

Kobe was functionally a better athlete than both of them. He didn't have the raw leaping ability of VC and maybe even T-Mac (although was certainly a better finisher than T-Mac), but I'd say he had literally every other athletic attribute in his favor. Kobe was quicker, faster, more agile, more coordinated, better at changing direction, more explosive first step and arguably stronger too. These matter more on the basketball court. You add his far superior work ethic to this and it's easy to see why he went on to have a much better career.

[Im Still Ballin]

I found the thread.

[tpols]

Yes, Kobe was more naturally talented then both, although McGrady in his prime could definitely challenge him. Vince was a superb player, but way too inconsistent to be matched up with someone of Kobe's greatness.

One thing people don't realize is that Kobe was overall quicker than both of those player and had a more explosive first step. That is so important in basketball for athletic two guards. Kobe obviously had a great vertical leap, but it was not quite as good as either Carter or McGrady. But he could get past either of them whenever he wanted based on his extremely good ball-handling and incredible first step. He was also likely quicker than both of them laterally both on offense and defense. MJ, Kobe, and Dwyane Wade are the quickest elite shooting guards I have ever seen, and they could routinely blow past point guards, shooting guards and small forwards. It didn't matter who you put in front of them, they would almost always have a quickness advantage, and if they didn't, they would still have the strength to overwhelm their opponent.

Again, McGrady and Carter were not slouches when it came to quickness ( McGrady was quicker than Vince Carter) but they could not compare with someone like Kobe. And this is an area of athleticism that is so extremely important but often overlooked.


This post pretty much sums it up, but another big advantage Kobe had was he had a much more determined mental drive to be great than Carter or Tmac had. And thats not to say the latter two didn't have great drive... they did, but Kobe was a psychopath with it.

They all came into the league at the same time and by the late 2000s tmac and Carter were shells while Kobe was still putting up 30/5/5 leading championship teams. His mental will and discipline was 10/10 while there's was like 8 or 8.5.

[insidehoops]

Slightly off topic but I wish we had seen Vince and McGrady play together longer

[kawhileonard2]

Slightly off topic but I wish we had seen Vince and McGrady play together longer

Agreed

[WhiteKyrie]

Yes, Kobe was more naturally talented then both, although McGrady in his prime could definitely challenge him. Vince was a superb player, but way too inconsistent to be matched up with someone of Kobe's greatness.

One thing people don't realize is that Kobe was overall quicker than both of those player and had a more explosive first step. That is so important in basketball for athletic two guards. Kobe obviously had a great vertical leap, but it was not quite as good as either Carter or McGrady. But he could get past either of them whenever he wanted based on his extremely good ball-handling and incredible first step. He was also likely quicker than both of them laterally both on offense and defense. MJ, Kobe, and Dwyane Wade are the quickest elite shooting guards I have ever seen, and they could routinely blow past point guards, shooting guards and small forwards. It didn't matter who you put in front of them, they would almost always have a quickness advantage, and if they didn't, they would still have the strength to overwhelm their opponent.

Again, McGrady and Carter were not slouches when it came to quickness ( McGrady was quicker than Vince Carter) but they could not compare with someone like Kobe. And this is an area of athleticism that is so extremely important but often overlooked.

I mean that speaks to athleticism in general, a lot of people just foolishly think it’s run fast and jump high, as I’ve said before the fetishization of the black athlete in America. VC could jumper higher than McGrady, who could jump higher than Kobe. But everything else you said 100% makes Kobe the better athlete and talent. In terms of quickness Kobe > McGrady > VC. And yes for big guards, Mike, Kobe and D-Wade are easily the fastest. There’s more to athleticism than jumping. Hand speed is forgotten. Lateral quickness is extremely important. MJ was the size of a big guard with little guy explosive quickness and smaller feet which made him way more difficult to deal with on both ends. Super large hands but relatively small feet for his size. It weirdly gave him the most perfect NBA body along with everything else. Kobe was similar. Like Booker is the best shooting guard in the game, he’s not even close to as athletic as Bryant.

[WhiteKyrie]

Slightly off topic but I wish we had seen Vince and McGrady play together longer

Nah, I would’ve preferred the Bulls have pulled that trigger on Pippen for McGrady. MJ with T-Mac from 98 - 03, or T-Mac and healthy G-Hill from 2001 forward are bitter fits. VC and McGrady are way too redundant.

2001 Hill and McGrady Magic vs 2001 Shaq and Kobe Lakers Finals would’ve been awesome

[red1]

carter was easily more athletic than kobe.

carter never ended up on a great team early in his career and he admit he checked out mentally at times


you'll never hear something like that from kobe



kobe's mental game and work ethic was the main difference. he just wanted it more.


tmac had injury issues I have no doubt that he couldve carried a team to a championship with the right cast and with health

[red1]

Kobe was functionally a better athlete than both of them. He didn't have the raw leaping ability of VC and maybe even T-Mac (although was certainly a better finisher than T-Mac), but I'd say he had literally every other athletic attribute in his favor. Kobe was quicker, faster, more agile, more coordinated, better at changing direction, more explosive first step and arguably stronger too. These matter more on the basketball court. You add his far superior work ethic to this and it's easy to see why he went on to have a much better career.

carter was quick as hell and his long arms were a HUGE underrated advantage that he had over other guards


basketball was effortless for him he just didnt care about winning championships as much as kobe did



kobe said he had a goal before he even came into the league of winning multiple rings


he wanted to win so bad that he was willing to do anything to win


meanwhile carter showed that basketball wasnt everything to him the way it was for kobe:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/its-time-to-forgive-vince/
https://www.sportscasting.com/vince-carter-missed-game-winning-shot-attending-unc-graduation-vigorously-stuck-with-decision/


His decision to attend his graduation on the day of the biggest game of his career became a hot-button issue, questioned by teammates—“A graduation? I don’t care what type of private jet was supplied, it breaks your routine,” says Jerome “Junkyard Dog” Williams today—and debated in the pages of the New York Times.


kobe was 100% about winning


thats a huge difference, and you could see it because every time was vince was proked and prodded by the media he would respond with a monster game which shows it was a mental/effort thing all along

[TAZORAC]

Mcgrady was the better scorer of the 3, Kobe was the overall better player.

Had Carter and Mcgrady played with prime Shaq, they would have multiple championships as hell. I'd even throw Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in that bunch as well