Pippen averaging Grant Hill numbers in 96-97

[DoctorP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRG_j8Z41uM

Pippen and Jordan both in peak form.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzH3-Ak7Acc

Pippen unable to guard Hill, so MJ takes over


fixed

[TheGoatest]

In his prime, Grant Hill was destroying Jordan and Pippen alike when they tried to guard him. He could get by Jordan on his speed alone:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yFOX-FmMXU

And he was 2 inches taller than Jordan. Hill's Pistons lost to the Bulls regularly though, obviously due to a much inferior roster.

Anyway, Pippen playing defense on a player Jordan was unable to guard was what kicked off the entire Bulls' championship run:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

Summary of the 1991 finals:

Jordan guarded Magic in game 1. The Bulls lost.
Pippen was put on Magic in games 2-5. The Bulls won all 4 of those games.
The rest is history.

[Phoenix]

I don't think people realize how quick Grant Hill was, both with that hesitation left to right cross and then the explosion afterwards. Crazy first step....that move he put on MJ above is the exact same one he put on Pip in the first video.

[expansionera]

https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/100093627_1572438242910621_8492220323624648704_n.p ng?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=3eNOztWTxKUAX_AcCep&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=52c3709283ca84cf79772c8d47f11d7e&oe=6167FB45

https://i.postimg.cc/vB0KVj4N/FF4-E1576-6050-4-A14-B070-B2-BC0-F3-F465-E.jpg

No Pip no chip :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

fixed

Does the idea that Pippen could do something well genuinely make you upset?

[LAL]

I don't get the title of this thread.

[97 bulls]

I don't get this narrative that Hill grossly outplayed Pippen head 2 head. This is a bold faced lie.


https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=hillgr01&player_id2=pippesc01

Their number were similar across the board other than rebounds. And that has a lot to do with Pippen having Rodman on his team.

[3ba11]

Pippen was put on Magic in games 2-5.





Jordan guarded Magic for most of the 91' Finals - 70% of possessions to be exact

So you're lying and posting misinformation

[3ba11]

I don't get this narrative that Hill grossly outplayed Pippen head 2 head. This is a bold faced lie.


https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=hillgr01&player_id2=pippesc01

Their number were similar across the board other than rebounds. And that has a lot to do with Pippen having Rodman on his team.


The triangle always provided the #2 guy with flow points but Pippen couldn't score outside the triangle and literally never did - everyone viewed him as a spotty scorer that often got role player stats in the playoffs and certainly nowhere near Grant Hill

[DoctorP]

In the video i posted:

Jordan calls Pippen "best all around player in the game"

Pippen then gets outplayed by Hill.

Both Pip and Hill are avg. same stats at this point in the season.

Peter Vecsey calls the league watered down.

Theres great commercials too.

[DoctorP]

I don't get the title of this thread.

watch the video

[97 bulls]

The triangle always provided the #2 guy with flow points but Pippen couldn't score outside the triangle and literally never did - everyone viewed him as a spotty scorer that often got role player stats in the playoffs and certainly nowhere near Grant Hill
So you're penalizing Pippen for scoring within the offense? Lol

Everyone views Pippen as a top 25 player, all time great defender and Hall of Famer.

[97 bulls]

In the video i posted:

Jordan calls Pippen "best all around player in the game"

Pippen then gets outplayed by Hill.

Both Pip and Hill are avg. same stats at this point in the season.

Peter Vecsey calls the league watered down.

Theres great commercials too.

What were the head to head numbers for the game you're referring to?

[3ba11]

So you're penalizing Pippen for scoring within the offense? Lol

Everyone views Pippen as a top 25 player, all time great defender and Hall of Famer.


Pippen was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi or Curry - so it's literally impossible that Pippen is still top 50, let alone top 25.

The only reason Pippen went from 50 to 25 despite tons of guys passing him is because new fans can only perform on-paper evaluations of old players, and the 6 rings stands out above Giannis or Dirk's 1 ring (despite vastly inferior performance and burden).

Ultimately, by virtue of being the goat's sidekick, Pippen's resume is better than it would be in any other scenario, which inflates his ranking above his actual performance more than anyone in history..

Pippen is just the low-producing bum that arrived after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win, and anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star format

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi or Curry - so it's literally impossible that Pippen is still top 50, let alone top 25.

The only reason Pippen went from 50 to 25 despite tons of guys passing him is because new fans can only perform on-paper evaluations of old players, and the 6 rings stands out above Giannis or Dirk's 1 ring (despite vastly inferior performance and burden).

Ultimately, by virtue of being the goat's sidekick, Pippen's resume is better than it would be in any other scenario, which inflates his ranking above his actual performance more than anyone in history..

Pippen is just the low-producing bum that arrived after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win, and anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star format
Pippen has 17 All-NBA/All-Defensive selections combined and finished top 10 in MVP voting 5 times. He was pretty good

[97 bulls]

Pippen was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi or Curry - so it's literally impossible that Pippen is still top 50, let alone top 25.

The only reason Pippen went from 50 to 25 despite tons of guys passing him is because new fans can only perform on-paper evaluations of old players, and the 6 rings stands out above Giannis or Dirk's 1 ring (despite vastly inferior performance and burden).

Ultimately, by virtue of being the goat's sidekick, Pippen's resume is better than it would be in any other scenario, which inflates his ranking above his actual performance more than anyone in history..

Pippen is just the low-producing bum that arrived after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win, and anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star format

Show me the current top 50 list. Im sure Pippen is comfortably there.

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi or Curry - so it's literally impossible that Pippen is still top 50, let alone top 25.

The only reason Pippen went from 50 to 25 despite tons of guys passing him is because new fans can only perform on-paper evaluations of old players, and the 6 rings stands out above Giannis or Dirk's 1 ring (despite vastly inferior performance and burden).

Ultimately, by virtue of being the goat's sidekick, Pippen's resume is better than it would be in any other scenario, which inflates his ranking above his actual performance more than anyone in history..

Pippen is just the low-producing bum that arrived after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win, and anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star format

Are you talking about the list that was done in alphabetical order? :lol

[97 bulls]

Are you talking about the list that was done in alphabetical order? :lol

Lol. :lol

[3ba11]

Pippen has 17 All-NBA/All-Defensive selections combined and finished top 10 in MVP voting 5 times. He was pretty good


Similar to Kobe getting All-Defense as a standard, Pippen's association with MJ and winning garnered a few extra All-NBA awards that he didn't deserve.

And even if we aren't looking at performance and are strictly going by media awards, then Payton has more All-NBA and All-Defense, while being a superior scorer, passer, leader and defender (dpoy on pippen's watch).

Stockton is also superior based on media awards, including twice as many All-NBA as Pippen.. He also ranks 8th all-time in BPM and is a superior floor leader, passer and scorer.. Stockton only averaged 2-3 points less but had goat efficiency and a far greater playmaking burden - Pippen had no burden by comparison.

But if we're including actual performance, then Pippen is an Iggy-level player and distinctly BELOW someone like say, Paul George

[DoctorP]

Peter Vescey truth bombs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Similar to Kobe getting All-Defense as a standard, Pippen's association with MJ and winning garnered a few extra All-NBA awards that he didn't deserve.

And even if we aren't looking at performance and are strictly going by media awards, then Payton has more All-NBA and All-Defense, while being a superior scorer, passer, leader and defender (dpoy on pippen's watch).

Stockton is also superior based on media awards, including twice as many All-NBA as Pippen.. He also ranks 8th all-time in BPM and is a superior floor leader, passer and scorer.. Stockton only averaged 2-3 points less but had goat efficiency and a far greater playmaking burden - Pippen had no burden by comparison.

But if we're including actual performance, then Pippen is an Iggy-level player and distinctly BELOW someone like say, Paul George
The Kobe comparison is so laughable I'm not even going to address it. Payton has 18 selections combined, Stockton 16, so it seems like Pippen absolutely falls into that same class of player. I also love how scoring burden is suddenly not an issue when it comes to Stockton :lol

[3ba11]

The Kobe comparison is so laughable I'm not even going to address it. Payton has 18 selections combined, Stockton 16, so it seems like Pippen absolutely falls into that same class of player. I also love how scoring burden is suddenly not an issue when it comes to Stockton :lol


You say that Pippen is in the same class as Payton, but Pippen wouldn't be #1 option on Payton's team, or nearly ANYONE'S team.. Nor was he a goat-tier floor general like Stockton..So he isn't in their class.

And what's so laughable about the Kobe comparison? Everyone knew that he got several all-defense that he didn't deserve, which is similar to Pippen getting All-NBA in 93', 97', and 98', which he 100% didn't deserve.. Only his association with winning and MJ got those awards, just like Kobe's last few all-defense

[jlip]

1:15- Matt Goukas says that MJ is the MVP at that point in the season because of his recent scoring spree.
1:31- Matt Goukas says that Pippen is the "best all around player in the game."

[Phoenix]

Pippen was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi or Curry - so it's literally impossible that Pippen is still top 50, let alone top 25.

The only reason Pippen went from 50 to 25 despite tons of guys passing him is because new fans can only perform on-paper evaluations of old players, and the 6 rings stands out above Giannis or Dirk's 1 ring (despite vastly inferior performance and burden).

Ultimately, by virtue of being the goat's sidekick, Pippen's resume is better than it would be in any other scenario, which inflates his ranking above his actual performance more than anyone in history..

Pippen is just the low-producing bum that arrived after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win, and anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star format

Do you ever fall asleep doing this schtick?

[Phoenix]

Similar to Kobe getting All-Defense as a standard, Pippen's association with MJ and winning garnered a few extra All-NBA awards that he didn't deserve.



So why didn't someone like BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant get more all-nba nods or attention, did the 'winning spotlight' somehow miss them?

[3ba11]

So why didn't someone like BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant get more all-nba nods or attention, did the 'winning spotlight' somehow miss them?


Would you make JJ Barea or Reddick all-star or All-NBA?.. there's always a line too far

In 1994, people were already scratching their head like "BJ?.. Horace?.. Seriously?"

So there's always a line too far.. BJ and Horace put up weak numbers (role player)... Otoh, Pippen's was passable in the regular season and became role player in the playoffs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Would you make JJ Barea or Reddick all-star or All-NBA?

In 1994, people were already scratching their head like "BJ?.. Horace?.. Seriously?"

So there's always a line too far.. BJ and Horace put up weak numbers (role player)... Otoh, Pippen's was passable in the regular season and became role player in the playoffs.
That role player still outplayed and outproduced the Bulls opposing 2nd options in the majority of their playoff series during their title runs

[Phoenix]

Would you make JJ Barea or Reddick all-star or All-NBA?.. there's always a line too far

In 1994, people were already scratching their head like "BJ?.. Horace?.. Seriously?"

So there's always a line too far.. BJ and Horace put up weak numbers (role player)... Otoh, Pippen's was passable in the regular season and became role player in the playoffs.

Ah so Pip's passable now, I guess that's an upgrade from a low-producing bum at the very least.

But ummm....in the first 3peat Pippen averaged 20/8/6 48% for the playoffs and had several series outscoring the 2nd option on other teams. So if he's a role player in the playoffs what does that say about the opposition 2nd options?

[ShawkFactory]

That role player still outplayed and outproduced the Bulls opposing 2nd options in the majority of their playoff series during their title runs

Pippen outscored the opposing 2nd option in 5 of the 6 finals series. Sometimes significantly so.

Hell, he outscored the first option in 91 :lol

[3ba11]

That role player still outplayed and outproduced the Bulls opposing 2nd options in the majority of their playoff series during their title runs


Pippen was the reason the Bulls went 7 games 4 different times



1990 ECF

Dumars.... 20 on 50%
Pippen'..... 16 on 43%


92' ECSF

X-Man.... 19 on 50%
Pippen... 16 on 40%


94' ECSF

Ewing...... 24 on 50%
Pippen.... 22 on 40%


98' ECF

Smits...... 16 on 55%
Pippen.... 16 on 39%


16 on 55% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed - Pippen's worst-ever westbrook efficiency meant that he was outplayed in MOST of the big series that the Bulls played,

Ultimately, dominant 1st options like Wade, Kyrie, and AD outscored the opposing #1 option in the Finals or the entire league for the playoffs, yet you're praising Pippen for outscoring the opposing 2nd option only half the series of his career.. And when you include Pippen's worst-ever westbrook efficiency, he was outplayed probably 75% of the series in his career

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was the reason the Bulls went 7 games 4 different times



1990 ECF

Dumars.... 20 on 44%
Pippen'..... 16 on 42%


92' ECSF

X-Man.... 19 on 50%
Pippen... 16 on 40%


94' ECSF

Ewing...... 24 on 50%
Pippen.... 22 on 40%


98' ECF

Smits...... 16 on 55%
Pippen.... 16 on 39%


16 on 55% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed - Pippen's worst-ever westbrook efficiency meant that he was outplayed in MOST of the big series that the Bulls played,

Ultimately, dominant 1st options like Wade, Kyrie, and AD outscored the opposing #1 option in the Finals or the entire league for the playoffs, yet you're praising Pippen for outscoring the opposing 2nd option only half the series of his career.. And when you include Pippen's worst-ever westbrook efficiency, he was outplayed probably 75% of the series in his career
Yeah, 2 series total during their title runs, one of which he still scored as many points while averaging more assists, rebounds, steals, blocks and playing significantly better defense :lol At the absolute worst, Pippen outplayed and outproduced the opposing teams 2nd options in 75% of their series during their title runs. So if he was a scrub, Jordan was facing some ass teams

[3ba11]

Yeah, 2 series total during their title runs, one of which he still scored as many points while averaging more assists, rebounds, steals, blocks and playing significantly better defense :lol At the absolute worst, Pippen outplayed and outproduced the opposing teams 2nd options in 75% of their series during their title runs. So if he was a scrub, Jordan was facing some ass teams


Pippen was outplayed in most series by either getting outscored or having horrific efficiency, or both... Half his series are 16 on 42% or worse

The stats in the previous post tell the story

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't a 1st option and couldn't outscore opposing 2nd options efficiently, while Lebron had elite 1st option sidekicks that outscored opposing 1st options or the entire league..

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was outplayed in most series by either getting outscored or having horrific efficiency

The stats above tell the story

Pippen wasn't a 1st option and couldn't outscore opposing 2nd options efficiently, while Lebron had elite 1st option sidekicks that outscored the opposing 1st options or the entire league..
Literal lies :lol Most series would dictate at least 12+, and we both know that was far from the case. Your BEST case scenario is half that

[3ba11]

Literal lies :lol Most series would dictate at least 12+, and we both know that was far from the case. Your BEST case scenario is half that


12+ what does that mean

Pippen had the worst efficiency ever and weak ppg - so he was outplayed in the vast majority of series by either getting outscored or having horrific efficiency

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't a 1st option and couldn't outscore opposing 2nd options efficiently, while Lebron had elite 1st option sidekicks that outscored opposing 1st options or the entire league

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


^^^ Pippen had 3 of the worst true shooting runs ever for a winning sidekick (93', 97', and 98')

So he's the least efficient sidekick ever, which confirms that he couldn't handle a 2nd option load

[90sgoat]

Such a shame what happened to Grant Hill.

Was in line to be the face of the league.

Could have been the antidote to AI.

[90sgoat]

People don't talk enough of how great a fastbreak team those 96/97 Bulls were with Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, all very fast and good in the open floor.

[SaintzFury13]

Similar to Kobe getting All-Defense as a standard, Pippen's association with MJ and winning garnered a few extra All-NBA awards that he didn't deserve.

You heard it here folks: 3ball just admitted that a few of Kobe's all defense team selections were undeserved and bullshit.

[DoctorP]

Such a shame what happened to Grant Hill.

Was in line to be the face of the league.

Could have been the antidote to AI.

Malice at the Palace was the final straw before the "suit and tie" era, could Hill have erased that incident a bit from being such an influential factor in the NBA?

[90sgoat]

Malice at the Palace was the final straw before the "suit and tie" era, could Hill have erased that incident a bit from being such an influential factor in the NBA?

I don't know, but it would have been a better balance.

Hill and Penny were supposed to be the stars of the post-MJ era, but both got injuries.

[Ryoka Narusawa]

Jordan guarded Magic for most of the 91' Finals - 70% of possessions to be exact

So you're lying and posting misinformation

MJ has DPOY and Pippen could never win that award

[SATAN]

https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/100093627_1572438242910621_8492220323624648704_n.p ng?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=3eNOztWTxKUAX_AcCep&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=52c3709283ca84cf79772c8d47f11d7e&oe=6167FB45

https://i.postimg.cc/vB0KVj4N/FF4-E1576-6050-4-A14-B070-B2-BC0-F3-F465-E.jpg

No Pip no chip :oldlol:

:oldlol: