Did Magic Deserve his First Two FMVPS?

[StrongLurk]

In my opinion, the answer is no, or mostly no.

Magic was obviously legendary in game 6 of the 1980 finals...but Kareem was SO much better games 1-5.

First five games
Magic: 17/10/9 (5 turnovers), 2.6 steals.
Kareem: 33/13/3, 4.6 blocks.

I mean it's not even close, Kareem was so much better and deserved FMVP.

In the 1982 finals, Magic averaged 16/11/8 (4.3 turnovers) with 2.5 steals. Only averaged 10 shots and 6.5 free throws per game and was the Lakers FOURTH leading scorer. Honestly those are some Ben Simmons numbers and not that impressive considering the sped up pace the Lakers played at in the 80's. Even if you think Magic deserved the 82 FMVP, it is a super weak FMVP historically.

Honestly the more I dive into Bird/Magic the more I find them overrated. Obviously they accomplished a lot in a short time...but idk they both had such short primes. I feel like Bird had noticeable drop offs in his playoff/finals play compared to his more dominant regular season self, and Magic sort of always feels a bit overrated to me (not peak Magic, but his prime overall). I wonder how good and "legendary" Magic would be if he was drafted to a team like the 84 Bulls instead of MJ.

[SouBeachTalents]

As historically great as his Game 6 was, Magic did absolutely not deserve FMVP in 1980. Hell, Kareem was voted the FMVP, but since he wasn't present they changed their vote to Magic.

1982 was one of those series were nobody really stood out. While I understand how ridiculous it seems to give a guy who was the fifth leading scorer and (at least in Magic's case) not even the leader in assists FMVP, if you look at the production of the other players involved, Magic has the best case.

So yeah, definitely did not deserve his first one, and his 2nd one was really weak for ATG standards. However, he got absolutely robbed in '88, ironically losing out on FMVP for virtually the identical reason he won in 1980, almost solely due to Worthy's GOAT Game 7 performance. So in the end shit honestly evened out :lol

[StrongLurk]

As historically great as his Game 6 was, Magic absolutely did not deserve FMVP in 1980. Hell, Kareem was voted the FMVP, but since he wasn't present they changed their vote to Magic.

1982 was one of those series were nobody really stood out. While I understand how ridiculous it seems for a guy who was the fifth leading scorer and (at least in Magic's case) not even the leader in assists FMVP, if you look at the production of the other players involved, Magic has the best case.

So yeah, definitely did not deserve his first one, and his 2nd one was really weak for ATG standards. However, he got absolutely robbed in '88, ironically losing out on FMVP for almost the exact reason he won his first, due to Worthy's GOAT Game 7 performance, so shit honestly evened out :lol

I have such a hard time ranking Bird/Magic all time. I move them around pretty often...they had great peaks but very short primes and they honestly both had drop offs in playoffs/finals play compared to their regular season dominance.

Idk the more I think about it, if I had to do an all time draft then I'd probably take Shaq/Duncan over Magic/Bird...maybe even Kobe over them too (although Kobe has the same playoff/finals drop off from reg season that Bird/Magic have).

Really my all time rankings basically have MJ, Bron, Kareem, Wilt in the top 4...and then have a separate tier for Bird, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan (which at the end of the day are too close to truly rank one over the other, they are the same tier of player). Then you have guys like Hakeem, KD and even Bill Russell (although Russell's greatness seems VERY era-specific compared to all other all time greats).

But shit, I could see myself taking Hakeem or Durant over Bird/Magic depending on team make up. Hakeem/Durant don't have as many awards, but their production/eye test in the playoffs are just as good.

[eliteballer]

Listen, LeRoid fan.

You don't understand basketball if you judge Magic by his scoring.

Second, post Magic's entire averages through the entire 6 games of the 1980 Finals.

[StrongLurk]

21/11/9, very impressive for a guy 3 months shy of 21. But Kareem still deserved that FMVP.

Then Magic was much worse in the 1982 finals but still managed another FMVP lol.

It's just funny how a guy like Lebron is hated so much by you, but Lebron is clearly a better player than Magic when looking at their careers.

[MadDog]

I have such a hard time ranking Bird/Magic all time. I move them around pretty often...they had great peaks but very short primes and they honestly both had drop offs in playoffs/finals play compared to their regular season dominance.

Idk the more I think about it, if I had to do an all time draft then I'd probably take Shaq/Duncan over Magic/Bird...maybe even Kobe over them too (although Kobe has the same playoff/finals drop off from reg season that Bird/Magic have).

Really my all time rankings basically have MJ, Bron, Kareem, Wilt in the top 4...and then have a separate tier for Bird, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan (which at the end of the day are too close to truly rank one over the other, they are the same tier of player). Then you have guys like Hakeem, KD and even Bill Russell (although Russell's greatness seems VERY era-specific compared to all other all time greats).

But shit, I could see myself taking Hakeem or Durant over Bird/Magic depending on team make up. Hakeem/Durant don't have as many awards, but their production/eye test in the playoffs are just as good.

Lets not pretend Wilt didn't have a significant dropoff in the playoffs. Or even the finals. You mentioned Magic, but his numbers didn't fall off too hard in the postseason. Similar regular-season shooting percentages, boxscore numbers & impact stats. If you're not enamored with PPG, Magic's finals play is right there with Shaq & Jordan as GOAT tier.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1980 he definitely deserved it over kareem. He dominated the closeout game and Kareem was busy watching at his hotel, that's a big deal. I can see if magic didn't have the series stats but he had that as well.

People get on Kawhi for his game 6 finals 2019 closeout game but he had 20 points going into the 4th quarter, kareem's bitch ass didn't even play and then turned into a f'n role player afterwards.

[StrongLurk]

Lets not pretend Wilt didn't have a significant dropoff in the playoffs. Or even the finals. You mentioned Magic, but his numbers didn't fall off too hard in the postseason. Similar regular-season shooting percentages, boxscore numbers & impact stats. If you're not enamored with PPG, Magic's finals play is right there with Shaq & Jordan as GOAT tier.

Bro, Magic's finals play is NOT GOAT tier. 87 is, but not his other ones. Shaq/Lebron/Jordan are probably the kings of peak finals play.

Obviously is blasphemous to mention this next player...but KD has been a monster in the finals. 30/8/5 on 55/45/91 for his finals career, all against his direct matchup, Lebron James, who is a mount rushmore player. Durant was on his way to a 3-peat, 3FMVP run with the Warriors while playing peak versions of Lebron/Kawhi to a standstill or even outplaying them.

Yeah yeah, Warriors were stacked, but KD at 23 still held his own against 2012 Lebron.

[MadDog]

Bro, Magic's finals play is NOT GOAT tier. 87 is, but not his other ones. Shaq/Lebron/Jordan are probably the kings of peak finals play.

Obviously is blasphemous to mention this next player...but KD has been a monster in the finals. 30/8/5 on 55/45/91 for his finals career, all against his direct matchup, Lebron James, who is a mount rushmore player. Durant was on his way to a 3-peat, 3FMVP run with the Warriors while playing peak versions of Lebron/Kawhi to a standstill or even outplaying them.

Yeah yeah, Warriors were stacked, but KD at 23 still held his own against 2012 Lebron.

You're obviously judging him on his points output. 87 is head and shoulders the most he scored in a finals lol. You cant gauge Magic's impact on his scoring (which is something he did pretty well anyway). Agree to disagree.

[Hey Yo]

Nobody ever mentions/even knows about Wilkes' 37-10 in that game 6

[Hey Yo]

The biggest myth is that Magic played C that game.

He repped the tipoff, but played Forward and G for the rest of the game.

[jlip]

I think it's common knowledge that Kareem was the rightful recipient of the 1980 FMVP. There was even a thread done on here years ago showing that the media actually voted Kareem the MVP of those finals, but they simply didn't want to award it to a player who wasn't present.

Regarding the 1982 finals, it appears that in a balanced offense, Magic was the most overall consistent Laker with no one standing out. With that being said, after losing to the Lakers in those finals, Dr. J had the following to say about Magic. "He is the only player who can take three shots and still dominate a game."

(Magic should have won the 1988 FMVP though. Much like 1980, Worthy won the award because of a dominating championship clinching game.)

Bigger picture though...Honestly, fans who have a view of what constitutes impact and value that is influenced by the "Jordan model" don't seem to appreciate how one can be the most impactful player on the team without being its leading scorer. For decades, especially during the 60's, 70's and early 80's with the domination of players like Russell, Wilt in his championship seasons, Wes Unseld, and Magic, having a balanced scoring offense where the most valuable player was not necessarily the leading scorer was common. Russell was universally recognized as the most valuable Celtic and was voted league MVP five times without once ever being his team's leading scorer in the regular season. Wilt was clearly his teams' most valuable player for his two rings, even winning FMVP in '72 despite being the team's third leading scorer in the final. Bill Walton absolutely dominated the 1978 Finals on a balanced scoring team while being the team's 2nd leading scorer. So, in the pre-MJ era, it should not be shocking that a player who is not leading his team in scoring is winning FMVP.

[iamgine]

Well, 'deserve' is hard to say. One could say they only won it because of Magic since Kareem went down. Or that what Magic did was so special that by itself it deserve the FMVP. Or that despite having a much worse stats than Kareem, Magic's impact was actually close or even greater than Kareem.

Like how Nash's numbers were much worse than Stoudemire but his impact was much much greater.

[jlip]

Here is the thread about Kareem actually winning the 1980 FMVP.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?301909-Kareem-1980-Finals-MVP



For all the greatness of Magic's Game 6, Kareem had 2-3 games in that series vs the Sixers alone with as much impact, if not more (when defense is considered) than Magic had in Game 6 (people forget Wilkes' performance in game 6 as well btw, who also had the best game of his career, but would anyone say he was more valuable during that series than Kareem?) Kareem was unstoppable on offense, he was the defensive anchor (5 freaking blocks a game) I wouldn't even say Magic created as many plays for his teammates as Kareem did in the half court, he was the clutchest player who won games in the 4th quarters for the Lakers...went down to injury in third quarter of game 5, came back in fourth quarter and made clutch shot after clutch shot in the last three minutes to secure the 3-2 lead. But that's not as heroic as Magic's performance because Kareem is a 7 footer who people don't relate with as much.

So I've done some research and apparently a few writers were apparently persuaded by CBS to change their vote in favor of Kareem's popular, charismatic teammate Magic Johnson.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/33kroqw.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=D0aqnXNYraAC&pg=PA140&img=1&pgis=1&dq=Bill+Livingston&sig=ACfU3U25vybyXOEBpvhba1uHQctFSBrSbw&edge=0


Bill Livingston publicly confessed that he and others changed votes to deny Kareem the award because CBS did not want to present to an empty chair.

This was during Kareem’s final season in an effort to clear his conscience and ask forgiveness.

He was 1 of 7 chosen to vote for '80 Finals MVP. After game 6 the tally had Kareem as the winner. CBS didn't want to present to an absent Kareem, so voters were pressured & coerced to change votes.

It’s covered on pgs 140 – 141 of “Kareem”
written in 1990.


On Kareem's farewell tour Bill Livingston confessed "enough of us saps changed our votes to deny Kareem the award by 4-3 count."

This thread isn't meant to diminish or belittle Magic. Anyway I feel he was deserving of the '88 Finals MVP when Worthy won and IMO MVP of the Finals is a pretty useless award since it's based on 4-7 games and with that you have cases like Tony Parker winning MVP over Duncan in '07 and Cedric Maxwell winning over Bird in '81 for example. Even John Starks came within one shot of winning a Finals MVP.

[Lakers Legend#32]

F#ck Yeah.

[getting_old]

Not a soul expected LA to win in Philly that night in the 80 Finals, Kareem was resting up a sprained ankle ready for Game 7

the game was on at 1am on tape delay after an episode of Cannon and Baretta as a "Late Night Movie" showing how CBS totally screwed over NBA fans back then...

Magic's performance was one for the ages, of course he got the FMVP

then Magic was hurt bad for 80-81, lead to the possibility he was finished, as well as the attitude problem with his coaching staff.

So 1982 was a big rebound for him and he never was again branded with negatives for his game on the court.

[ShawkFactory]

You're obviously judging him on his points output. 87 is head and shoulders the most he scored in a finals lol. You cant gauge Magic's impact on his scoring (which is something he did pretty well anyway). Agree to disagree.

I would be willing to be that Magic quite literally gave up 5-6 points a game to let teammates score. Over the course of a decade.

[StrongLurk]

People say I'm only focusing on scoring...but in the 80/82 finals Magic averaged 9 assists and 8 assists per game, but also 5 turnovers and 4.3 turnovers. And Magic was playing at a fas pace too.

At least when Bron had those kind of assists/turnovers, he was putting up 25-35 ppg.

[Gohan]

Im taking iverson>> magic all day. Only if i want to win. If i want to see fancy passes ill watch the globetrotter

[mr4speed]

Not a soul expected LA to win in Philly that night in the 80 Finals, Kareem was resting up a sprained ankle ready for Game 7

the game was on at 1am on tape delay after an episode of Cannon and Baretta as a "Late Night Movie" showing how CBS totally screwed over NBA fans back then...

Magic's performance was one for the ages, of course he got the FMVP

then Magic was hurt bad for 80-81, lead to the possibility he was finished, as well as the attitude problem with his coaching staff.

So 1982 was a big rebound for him and he never was again branded with negatives for his game on the court.
If I remember correctly , the only person who seemed to think LA was in a good position was Bill Russell. He was a commentator and said that the Sixers had never played LA without Kareem and that they might have match-up problems. He said LA would probably push the ball as much as possible and that everybody expected the Sixers to win and that took all the pressure off of LA. Leave it to Russell to have a sense of a possible surprise! I guess playing in and seeing so many Finals, gave him an interesting insight. I will have to go back and watch the pregame comments, but it seems Russell was dead on!

[Pointguard]

In my opinion, the answer is no, or mostly no.

Magic was obviously legendary in game 6 of the 1980 finals...but Kareem was SO much better games 1-5.

First five games
Magic: 17/10/9 (5 turnovers), 2.6 steals.
Kareem: 33/13/3, 4.6 blocks.

I mean it's not even close, Kareem was so much better and deserved FMVP.

In the 1982 finals, Magic averaged 16/11/8 (4.3 turnovers) with 2.5 steals. Only averaged 10 shots and 6.5 free throws per game and was the Lakers FOURTH leading scorer. Honestly those are some Ben Simmons numbers and not that impressive considering the sped up pace the Lakers played at in the 80's. Even if you think Magic deserved the 82 FMVP, it is a super weak FMVP historically.

Honestly the more I dive into Bird/Magic the more I find them overrated. Obviously they accomplished a lot in a short time...but idk they both had such short primes. I feel like Bird had noticeable drop offs in his playoff/finals play compared to his more dominant regular season self, and Magic sort of always feels a bit overrated to me (not peak Magic, but his prime overall). I wonder how good and "legendary" Magic would be if he was drafted to a team like the 84 Bulls instead of MJ.

Magic, Duncan, MJ, Russell they all had a relationship with winning their entire lives. Magic had his even beyond basketball. Magic was super clutch. He's had more miraculous last second shots than anybody. There might be one person who has more clutch moments than him? You said sped up pace - who do you think could keep that pace up and make quick decisions all the time? You think its easy or that any team could do it? One of Magic's teams shot 545% from the field. I think all but one team shot over 50%. If a player got hot Magic maintained his hotness. If a player did a solid defensive play Magic rewarded him. You mentioned steals, if Magic stold the ball it was often changed the momentum of the game - not only as two points on the other end of the court, but as a way for Magic pump up the crowd and a teammate he wanted to get pumped. It was the best defense to offense play the game has ever known.


Bro, Magic's finals play is NOT GOAT tier. 87 is, but not his other ones. Shaq/Lebron/Jordan are probably the kings of peak finals play.


You can't go the stat route, which is what you are doing, on PG's that don't need to score to be effective. I pretty sure you haven't seen Magic but lets look at Kidd.
He took a last place team that had the most productive point guard in Marbury a 24 and 8 guard and converted them into a two time finals team in one year - and Kidd only averaged 14 and 10. He amazingly took a team of guys that never had any type of impact anyplace else - both Kenyon Martain and Richard Jefferson made good money from who they were then with Kidd - this team that had nobody score 15 ppg and nobody above 7.5 rebounds to the finals for two years. Kidd totally just ran the team like a champ. He had masterful control of when to run and when not run. They were a true pleasure to watch cause they had this methodical way of beating you. Kenyon was the only finisher, but he was basically a low scoring dunker. Van Horn was a long range shooter but shot bad below the three point line and in pressure situations. Nobody else was even creative on that team. This can only be explained by somebody doing things above the stat calculations.

[Gohan]

Magic, Duncan, MJ, Russell they all had a relationship with winning their entire lives. Magic had his even beyond basketball. Magic was super clutch. He's had more miraculous last second shots than anybody. There might be one person who has more clutch moments than him? You said sped up pace - who do you think could keep that pace up and make quick decisions all the time? You think its easy or that any team could do it? One of Magic's teams shot 545% from the field. I think all but one team shot over 50%. If a player got hot Magic maintained his hotness. If a player did a solid defensive play Magic rewarded him. You mentioned steals, if Magic stold the ball it was often changed the momentum of the game - not only as two points on the other end of the court, but as a way for Magic pump up the crowd and a teammate he wanted to get pumped. It was the best defense to offense play the game has ever known.



You can't go the stat route, which is what you are doing, on PG's that don't need to score to be effective. I pretty sure you haven't seen Magic but lets look at Kidd.
He took a last place team that had the most productive point guard in Marbury a 24 and 8 guard and converted them into a two time finals team in one year - and Kidd only averaged 14 and 10. He amazingly took a team of guys that never had any type of impact anyplace else - both Kenyon Martain and Richard Jefferson made good money from who they were then with Kidd - this team that had nobody score 15 ppg and nobody above 7.5 rebounds to the finals for two years. Kidd totally just ran the team like a champ. He had masterful control of when to run and when not run. They were a true pleasure to watch cause they had this methodical way of beating you. Kenyon was the only finisher, but he was basically a low scoring dunker. Van Horn was a long range shooter but shot bad below the three point line and in pressure situations. Nobody else was even creative on that team. This can only be explained by somebody doing things above the stat calculations.

If they dont believe you with kidd check out the 2013 knicks to look at kidds impact

[Bronbron23]

In my opinion, the answer is no, or mostly no.

Magic was obviously legendary in game 6 of the 1980 finals...but Kareem was SO much better games 1-5.

First five games
Magic: 17/10/9 (5 turnovers), 2.6 steals.
Kareem: 33/13/3, 4.6 blocks.

I mean it's not even close, Kareem was so much better and deserved FMVP.

In the 1982 finals, Magic averaged 16/11/8 (4.3 turnovers) with 2.5 steals. Only averaged 10 shots and 6.5 free throws per game and was the Lakers FOURTH leading scorer. Honestly those are some Ben Simmons numbers and not that impressive considering the sped up pace the Lakers played at in the 80's. Even if you think Magic deserved the 82 FMVP, it is a super weak FMVP historically.

Honestly the more I dive into Bird/Magic the more I find them overrated. Obviously they accomplished a lot in a short time...but idk they both had such short primes. I feel like Bird had noticeable drop offs in his playoff/finals play compared to his more dominant regular season self, and Magic sort of always feels a bit overrated to me (not peak Magic, but his prime overall). I wonder how good and "legendary" Magic would be if he was drafted to a team like the 84 Bulls instead of MJ.

I think a case could definitely be made for 80 even though kareem had better staff. What magic did in game 6 is stuff of lengends. It was one the greatest finals performance ever and easily the greatest performance ever by a rookie. That shit may never happen again.

82 was a pick em. It was anyones fmvp going into the game 6 clincher and magic had a very efficient tripple double so I'm fine with him getting fmvp.

[getting_old]

If I remember correctly , the only person who seemed to think LA was in a good position was Bill Russell. He was a commentator and said that the Sixers had never played LA without Kareem and that they might have match-up problems. He said LA would probably push the ball as much as possible and that everybody expected the Sixers to win and that took all the pressure off of LA. Leave it to Russell to have a sense of a possible surprise! I guess playing in and seeing so many Finals, gave him an interesting insight. I will have to go back and watch the pregame comments, but it seems Russell was dead on!



thanks!

no surprise Bill would come up with that one, not having KA-J was mostly seen as a negative thing by fans

then again, no NBA team has clowned itself out of golden opportunities like the Sixers, so this was playing right into their wheelhouse

it was fun as a C's fan watching former greats like Bill and Tommy call national broadcasts totalling biased for their old team :D

[jlip]

Regarding the Sixers losing game 6 of the 1980 finals, I saw an interview with Dr. J some time ago where he said that in essence they had game planned to try and contain Kareem and were had not prepared to face a Lakers offense without him. I wish I could find it.

[MadDog]

Magic, Duncan, MJ, Russell they all had a relationship with winning their entire lives. Magic had his even beyond basketball. Magic was super clutch. He's had more miraculous last second shots than anybody. There might be one person who has more clutch moments than him? You said sped up pace - who do you think could keep that pace up and make quick decisions all the time? You think its easy or that any team could do it? One of Magic's teams shot 545% from the field. I think all but one team shot over 50%. If a player got hot Magic maintained his hotness. If a player did a solid defensive play Magic rewarded him. You mentioned steals, if Magic stold the ball it was often changed the momentum of the game - not only as two points on the other end of the court, but as a way for Magic pump up the crowd and a teammate he wanted to get pumped. It was the best defense to offense play the game has ever known.



You can't go the stat route, which is what you are doing, on PG's that don't need to score to be effective. I pretty sure you haven't seen Magic but lets look at Kidd.
He took a last place team that had the most productive point guard in Marbury a 24 and 8 guard and converted them into a two time finals team in one year - and Kidd only averaged 14 and 10. He amazingly took a team of guys that never had any type of impact anyplace else - both Kenyon Martain and Richard Jefferson made good money from who they were then with Kidd - this team that had nobody score 15 ppg and nobody above 7.5 rebounds to the finals for two years. Kidd totally just ran the team like a champ. He had masterful control of when to run and when not run. They were a true pleasure to watch cause they had this methodical way of beating you. Kenyon was the only finisher, but he was basically a low scoring dunker. Van Horn was a long range shooter but shot bad below the three point line and in pressure situations. Nobody else was even creative on that team. This can only be explained by somebody doing things above the stat calculations.

When fans talk ball and not stats. Good analysis bruh :cheers: Magic's feel for pace was unworldly. His height (which gave him the ability to look over guards) basically made him a unicorn. Magic had his finger prints all over games, and didn't have to score 30. The court was his dominion.

[Pointguard]

Regarding the Sixers losing game 6 of the 1980 finals, I saw an interview with Dr. J some time ago where he said that in essence they had game planned to try and contain Kareem and were had not prepared to face a Lakers offense without him. I wish I could find it.

Philly would have swept the Lakers if there was no Magic. The previous year without Magic they had no direction and not much of a fight in them. Magic stepped into the biggest shoes to fill and his cuppeth overrunth. The Sixers weren't ready and Magic was.

[Pointguard]

When fans talk ball and not stats. Good analysis bruh :cheers: Magic's feel for pace was unworldly. His height (which gave him the ability to look over guards) basically made him a unicorn. Magic had his finger prints all over games, and didn't have to score 30. The court was his dominion.

Thanks! Check out all of these spectacular last second shots for like five minutes. https://youtu.be/q8Qbo0WqvOI?t=632 He was doing it scoring wise as well.

[MadDog]

Thanks! Check out all of these spectacular last second shots for like five minutes. https://youtu.be/q8Qbo0WqvOI?t=632 He was doing it scoring wise as well.

Yeah I've watched this video. :applause: Arguably the best player compilation on YouTube. The uploader's got the most extensive Magic archive I've seen.

[jlip]

Thanks! Check out all of these spectacular last second shots for like five minutes. https://youtu.be/q8Qbo0WqvOI?t=632 He was doing it scoring wise as well.

I remember watching that play to close out Portland in the '91 WCF live. When I saw it then, it blew my mind as the most brilliant play I'd ever seen before. At first I was like, why didn't he just hold the ball, but then when I saw the clock running out and nobody able to catch up with it, it all made sense.

[Lakers Legend#32]

The greatest player ever.

[Pointguard]

I remember watching that play to close out Portland in the '91 WCF live. When I saw it then, it blew my mind as the most brilliant play I'd ever seen before. At first I was like, why didn't he just hold the ball, but then when I saw the clock running out and nobody able to catch up with it, it all made sense.

And he nearly had it down to nin th of a second.