Lebron has AD/Westbrook.. Wade/Bosh.. Kyrie/Love.. what if he just had....

[3ba11]

pippen?

Seems like a lot less help, so 4/10 would become 0/3 or something like that

pippen has half the production of westbrook across the board (pts, reb, assist), with the same weak efficiency.. that isn't enough help for ball-dominance (lebron) to win

[MadDog]

You have to adjust for the era. Pippen's production was often > his opponents number 2. Sometimes even the number 1. :confusedshrug: I've referenced the 91 postseason before, as have others. In that run, Pippen outscored every number two option and all but one alpha producer. This was on very good efficiency to boot.

[Vino24]

LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe

[SouBeachTalents]

How do you seriously not get tired of this :lol

[8Ball]

Scottie Pippen:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

About the same as Wade.

[3ba11]

You have to adjust for the era. Pippen's production was often > his opponents number 2. Sometimes even the number 1. :confusedshrug: I've referenced the 91 postseason before, as have others. In that run, Pippen outscored every number two option and all but one alpha producer. This was on very good efficiency to boot.


You're lying because outside of 1991, Pippen caused loss or nearly caused loss in every playoffs by getting outscored and outplayed by a 2nd option



* In 1990, Pippen was outscored and outplayed by the Pistons' 2nd option and had the migraine choke that cost the title

* In 1992, he was destroyed by X-man in the 2nd Round, which nearly caused historic upset and derailed the repeat

* In 1993, Pippen was outscored by 2nd option against Atlanta, while having the worst playoff BPM, PER and WS/48 for a winning sidekick ever, and among the worst true shooting.. So are you saying that Lebron can win with the worst-producing sidekick ever? (lowest BPM, PER, and WS/48 ever for winning sidekick in the playoffs)

* In 1994, Pippen was outscored and outplayed by Ewing

* In 1995, Pippen was outscored and outplayed by Larry Johnson in the 1st Round, while his 19 on 40% caused loss in the 2nd Round

* In the 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen was outscored by opposing 2nd options in the 96' ECF, 96' Finals, and the 97' 1st Round, while nearly causing loss in the 98' ECF by getting outplayed by Smits (16.6 on 39% for Pippen... 16.2 on 55% for Smits)

* In the 99-03' Playoffs, Pippen averaged 11 ppg and was 1876th option for the Rockets and Blazers


In addition to getting outscored by an opposing 2nd option in every playoff run, Pippen had worst-ever efficiency

16 on 50% isn't bad, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed and Pippen had 3 of the 7 worst true shootings in playoff history for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98)..

ESPN details Pippen's Westbrook efficiency here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) (Pippen had Westbrook efficiency with half the production across the board)

[MadDog]

You cherry-picked one series in 92, and another series in 93. Heck 4 of the 12 series from 96-98 lol. How on earth do you think this is a counterargument? :confusedshrug:

[FultzNationRISE]

People forget that Lebron essentially tried to get "just Pippen" when he pushed for the Cavs to get Jason Kidd during his initial time there. He even said in an interview one offseason that if the Cavs could just put him and J Kidd together, nothing could stop them. Lebron WANTED his own Pippen and was extremely confident about succeeding with one.

Instead the Cavs bungled their roster continuously, and eventually Lebron had to settle for Miami with has-been Wade and never-was Bosh. These guys were poor fits stylistically and already past it physically. This was a significant downgrade from the possibility of playing with someone like a Kidd or Pippen.

Lebron's ability to drag a washed up and misfit Miami cast to multiple titles is a testament to how much better than MJ he was. The latter needing a perfectly balanced and harmonized roster around him just to avoid repetitive cycles of going 1-9 in the playoffs. Whereas Lebron wins and wins and wins no matter what kind of junk you put around him.

[3ba11]

You cherry-picked one series in 92, and another series in 93. Heck 4 of the 12 series from 96-98 lol. How on earth do you think this is a counterargument? :confusedshrug:


Aside from 91', Pippen was outscored by 2nd options in literally every playoffs, and completely wet the bed in various series for every playoffs.

So you're bragging about Pippen getting outscored by 2nd options, while AD/Wade/Kyrie outscore opposing #1 options in the Finals, or the entire league (AD led the league in playoff scoring)

It's no comparison - MJ literally won with the lowest producing sidekick ever - 93' Pippen had the lowest PER, WS/48 and BPM in the playoffs of any winning sidekick, ever

So all the evidence shows that Pippen was a low-producing sidekick and MJ had to carry the Bulls...Heck, maybe if Pippen had destroyed MVP Barkley like Kyrie did Curry, then Jordans ring quality would be as low as Lebron's, smh

[expansionera]

Context, Lebron played with all stars in an era where he had to compete against super teams. Jordan was on the only superteam during his era and never required much more than Pippen to get all the rebounds, assist, blocks, steals and basically carry him on everything except scoring.

[Axe]

Thread Cliffs

Op is a phagg0t.

[ShawkFactory]

Aside from 91', Pippen was outscored by 2nd options in literally every playoffs, and completely wet the bed in various series for every playoffs.

So you're bragging about Pippen getting outscored by 2nd options, while AD/Wade/Kyrie outscore opposing #1 options in the Finals, or the entire league (AD led the league in playoff scoring)

It's no comparison - MJ literally won with the lowest producing sidekick ever - 93' Pippen had the lowest PER, WS/48 and BPM in the playoffs of any winning sidekick, ever

So all the evidence shows that Pippen was a low-producing sidekick and MJ had to carry the Bulls...Heck, maybe if Pippen had destroyed MVP Barkley like Kyrie did Curry, then Jordans ring quality would be as low as Lebron's, smh

Peep the 03 Spurs. Parker had a NEGATIVE BPM in the playoffs

[Manny98]

He'd have 0 rings, simple as that

[3ba11]

Peep the 03 Spurs. Parker had a NEGATIVE BPM in the playoffs


No, Robinson was higher than 93' Pippen across the board (BPM, PER, WS/48, and equal VORP)

93' Pippen actually had the lowest playoff BPM, PER, VORP and WS/48 (aka lowest across the board), except for a few tiny exceptions, like 06' Posey (barely lower VORP), 03' Robinson (equal VORP), and 15' Draymond (barely lower PER).

That's f*cking amazing.. So Jordan's 93' ring is by far the goat ring... Of course, he beat 3 all-stars in the 93' Finals while his sidekick shot 45% true shooting (exactly like 96'), whereas Lebron never overcame a talent deficit in the Finals, or won with his sidekick wetting the bed.

Heck, if Pippen had outplayed MVP Malone or Barkley like Kyrie did Curry, then Jordan's ring quality would be reduced to Lebron's 16' ring.. That's how insane/goat Jordans ring quality is

[NBAGOAT]

Underrating grant and Rodman/kukoc a bit, they’re not just role players but ofc you treat them as such because they weren’t all stars. By this logic harden has one of the goat underdog accomplishments because he took durant/curry/klay/dray to 7 with just cp3. Anyone who watched knows capela and Gordon were really good that year however and houston had better role players too.

[ArbitraryWater]

Are his opponents still the same or do his opponents change as well?

[3ba11]

Underrating grant and Rodman/kukoc a bit, they’re not just role players but ofc you treat them as such because they weren’t all stars. By this logic harden has one of the goat underdog accomplishments because he took durant/curry/klay/dray to 7 with just cp3. Anyone who watched knows capela and Gordon were really good that year however and houston had better role players too.


Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs (Kukoc was), while Horace started during the 1st three-peat.. So Jordan won 6 chips with a rotating bunch of replaceable role players at PF.. He didn't need perennial all-stars and American HOF's like Bosh, AD, or Love.

And I'm not underrating anyone - a previous poster referenced the 93' Playoffs, where Pippen had the worst production rate ever for a winning sidekick (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP)..

[ShawkFactory]

No, Robinson was higher than 93' Pippen across the board (BPM, PER, WS/48, and equal VORP)

93' Pippen actually had the lowest playoff BPM, PER, VORP and WS/48 (aka lowest across the board), except for a few tiny exceptions, like 06' Posey (barely lower VORP), 03' Robinson (equal VORP), and 15' Draymond (barely lower PER).

That's f*cking amazing.. So Jordan's 93' ring is by far the goat ring... Of course, he beat 3 all-stars in the 93' Finals while his sidekick shot 45% true shooting (exactly like 96'), whereas Lebron never overcame a talent deficit in the Finals, or won with his sidekick wetting the bed.

Heck, if Pippen had outplayed MVP Malone or Barkley like Kyrie did Curry, then Jordan's ring quality would be reduced to Lebron's 16' ring.. That's how insane/goat Jordans ring quality is

You said sidekick. Not second most impactful player.

Robinson was playing 20 minutes a game. Not a sidekick

[SouBeachTalents]

Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs (Kukoc was), while Horace started during the 1st three-peat.. So Jordan won 6 chips with a rotating bunch of replaceable role players at PF.. He didn't need perennial all-stars and American HOF's like Bosh, AD, or Love.

And I'm not underrating anyone - a previous poster referenced the 93' Playoffs, where Pippen had the worst production rate ever for a winning sidekick (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP)..
Where's this context for LeBron's teammates? Why do you never bring up Wade averaging 16 ppg in 2013, Bosh averaging Horace Grant production, Love averaging 9 ppg in the 2016 Finals, Wade & Bosh being absolute garbage in the 2014 Finals etc?

[3ba11]

Are his opponents still the same or do his opponents change as well?


To compensate Lebron for any difference in comp, he gets more Finals opportunities via super-team in weak conference and an extra star teammate, aka big 3 super-team ("not 6, not 7")..

But Lebron doesn't need to be compensated because the Spurs, Mavs and Curry Warriors had 2-3 offensive stars just like Jordan's Finals opponents.. Those opponents along with the entire league was cowering from Lebron's super-teams.. Lebron infact hand-picked the preseason league favorite from 2011-2016 - these super-teams were so unfair, that KD had to join Curry/Klay to level the playing field.

Ultimately, if Jordan had big 3 super-teams like Lebron he would win 70+ and the title every year

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ MJ's teammate avg. 7ppg and still getting FMVP voteS.

[Hey Yo]

To compensate Lebron for any difference in comp, he gets more Finals opportunities via super-team in weak conference and an extra star teammate, aka big 3 super-team ("not 6, not 7")..

But Lebron doesn't need to be compensated because the Spurs, Mavs and Curry Warriors had 2-3 offensive stars just like Jordan's Finals opponents.. Those opponents along with the entire league was cowering from Lebron's super-teams.. Lebron infact hand-picked the preseason league favorite from 2011-2016 - these super-teams were so unfair, that KD had to join Curry/Klay to level the playing field.

Ultimately, if Jordan had big 3 super-teams like Lebron he would win 70+ and the title every year

How does LeBron have superteams when you say Bron-ball makes his teammates worse?

[3ba11]

How does LeBron have superteams when you say Bron-ball makes his teammates worse?


He underachieves with super-teams, in part by reducing teammates to spot-up roles, and also by using weaker strategy (ball-dominance) instead of ball-movement

And if you think that Jordan's Finals perfection is unfair,, we can look at Eastern Playoffs or regular season - MJ had #1 offenses with less offensive help and won 72 with 1 all-star, while Lebron never had #1 offenses with more help and never won 70 with big 3's

[Hey Yo]

He underachieves with super-teams, in part by reducing teammates to spot-up roles, and also by using weaker strategy (ball-dominance) instead of ball-movement

And if you think that Jordan's Finals perfection is unfair,, we can look at Eastern Playoffs or regular season - MJ had #1 offenses with less offensive help and won 72 with 1 all-star, while Lebron never had #1 offenses with more help and never won 70 with big 3's

If he reduces his teammates then how are they a superteam? You suggesting he won by himself?

[3ba11]

If he reduces his teammates then how are they a superteam? You suggesting he won by himself?


They're a super-team because they had 3 perennial all-stars and 3 elite 1st options on the same team

aka Wade/Lebron/Bosh ... Lebron/Kyrie/Love .. AD/Lebron/Westbrook

[Hey Yo]

In 96', MJ had the rebound champion who was also 1st team All defense and received multiple FMVP votes avg. 7ppg.

Pippen was All NBA on both ends of the court.... but yeah, he only had one all star

[Hey Yo]

They're a super-team because they had 3 perennial all-stars and 3 elite 1st options on the same team

aka Wade/Lebron/Bosh ... Lebron/Kyrie/Love .. AD/Lebron/Westbrook

So why the losing record when James doesn't play? No games where Bosh and Wade combined for 50pts and 15 rebounds?

[3ba11]

In 96', MJ had the rebound champion who was also 1st team All defense and received multiple FMVP votes avg. 7ppg.





Jordan three-peated with just Pippen from 91-93', while winning the 98' title with Kukoc as starting PF and the 97' title with Rodman getting 4/8 for the entire playoffs.

So who cares about 96'? Anyone could've replaced Rodman's 7 ppg and defense

[Axe]

Jordan three-peated with just Pippen from 91-93', while winning the 98' title with Kukoc as starting PF and the 97' title with Rodman getting 4/8 for the entire playoffs.

So who cares about 96'? Anyone could've replaced Rodman's 7 ppg and defense
2/7 or february 7

Also 16-6

[Hey Yo]

Jordan three-peated with just Pippen from 91-93', while winning the 98' title with Kukoc as starting PF and the 97' title with Rodman getting 4/8 for the entire playoffs.

So who cares about 96'? Anyone could've replaced Rodman's 7 ppg and defense

Bosh was putting up Grant numbers in the Finsls, except Grant never got shutout in a Finals game (and still won) like Bosh and Allen did in the decisive game 7.

If Rodman could easily be replaced then why didnt they get past the 2nd round in 95' without him or Grant?

[SaintzFury13]

So who cares about 96'? Anyone could've replaced Rodman's 7 ppg and defense

Name a single player in the entire NBA who could have replaced Rodman's defense and rebounding without disrupting the Bulls offense and forcing both Jordan and Pippen to defer part of their offense.

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

[3ba11]

Name a single player in the entire NBA who could have replaced Rodman





Kukoc... he was the starter in the 98' Playoffs...

Horace Grant was the starter in the 91-93' Playoffs...

And no one started in the 97' Playoffs (the Bulls played 4 on 5 offensively and rodman only averaged 8 rpg)





without disrupting the Bulls offense and forcing both Jordan and Pippen to defer part of their offense.





The 96' Bulls needed someone to defer some of Pippen's offense because his worst-ever efficiency in those playoffs specifically (see previous post) confirms that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load.. He shot 34% in the Finals.

Horace Grant's 12/9 on 50% would've done wonders for the 2nd three-peat team with Pippen's offense no longer at the 91/92 or 94/95' peak level (17.6 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs including 2 Finals of 15 on 41%... And he was tired on the back lef of the 3-peat in the 93' Playoffs with the worst-ever advanced stats for a winning sidekick and among the worst true shooting).

[ShawkFactory]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

All four of those guys were absolutely essential to their teams :applause:

[AussieSteve]

Jordan had the best cast in the league for both 3peats and you know it.

[3ba11]

All four of those guys were absolutely essential to their teams :applause:


Valueable role players indeed...

but only Pippen was a 2nd option and therefore supposed to be a star - who cares if a role player gets role player numbers - but it's a problem if the so-called 2nd option star gets those numbers

Pippen simply couldn't handle the 2nd option load and was infact a Jrue or Artest-level player (3rd or 4th option)

:applause:

[Hey Yo]

How many FMVP votes did Grant and Kukoc get those years?

Rodman avg. 30mins a game in the 98 Finals. Those are starter mins.

[ShawkFactory]

Valueable role players indeed...

but only Pippen was a 2nd option and therefore supposed to be a star - who cares if a role player gets role player numbers - but it's a problem if the so-called 2nd option star gets those numbers

Pippen simply couldn't handle the 2nd option load and was infact a Jrue or Artest-level player (3rd or 4th option)

:applause:

20/7/7 for a 3rd or 4th option in the 90s? Sick

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bron had a lot of help.

Kinda like most champions in history. Great insight dude... I mean, we got it the first hundred times you made the topic.

[TheCorporation]

Does he get to play against AIDS Magic and Terry Porter/Clyde Drexler? :lol Or how about 6'1 Payton and Detlef Shrimp. Or 36 year old ringless cuck Original Trash Bros? LBJ goes 7 for 6

[3ba11]

20/7/7 for a 3rd or 4th option in the 91' Playoffs and most of 92' but trash in every other playoffs? Sick


fixed

aside from 91', Pippen was LITERALLY HORRIBLE in every other playoffs

do you understand that?

every other year he was horrible - his X-man debacle in 92' nearly derailed the repeat and he had the worst impact stats ever in the 93' playoffs across the board (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP), while averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and being horrible in the 88-90' and 99-03' Playoffs..

if MJ had a dominant sidekick like EVERYONE ELSE IN HISTORY ENJOYED, he would win 70 and the title in blowout fashion every year.

[TheCorporation]

Does he get to play against AIDS Magic and Terry Porter/Clyde Drexler? :lol Or how about 6'1 Payton and Detlef Shrimp. Or 36 year old ringless cuck Original Trash Bros? LBJ goes 7 for 6

3ball? Dont run from defeat

[3ba11]

3ball? Dont run from defeat


He lost me at AIDS, which revealed that it was a troll post and not serious about the runner-up for MVP Magic in 1991

[3ba11]

Btw,

93' Pippen had worst impact stats ever for winning sidekick in Playoffs (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP) and nearly the worst true shooting, while also getting outplayed by Kevin Willis in the 1st round and then achieving 45% true shooting in the Finals as he let rookie Dumas go off.

So Pippen was horrible in the 93' Playoffs and the 88-90' Playoffs, while having the X-man debacle in 92' ECSF and averaging 17.6 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs or 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs - so he was literally BAD for his entire playoff career, except 91' and most of 92' (aka 90% of his playoff career was horrible)

[2much_knowledge]

ISH.. the only place where Pippen > all of them together....

Lol

[TheCorporation]

Does he get to play against AIDS Magic and Terry Porter/Clyde Drexler? :lol Or how about 6'1 Payton and Detlef Shrimp. Or 36 year old ringless cuck Original Trash Bros? LBJ goes 7 for 6


3ball?

[3ba11]

Does he get to play against AIDS Magic and Terry Porter/Clyde Drexler? :lol Or how about 6'1 Payton and Detlef Shrimp. Or 36 year old ringless cuck Original Trash Bros? LBJ goes 7 for 6


Magic/Worthy > any duo that Lebron ever beat

Kemp/Payton/Schrempf > Duncan/Parker/Manu

The Mavs and Spurs compare to Jordans Finals opponents, while Lebron had the preseason favorite in 2016 and his sidekick destroyed Curry - anyone wins in that scenario

[SaintzFury13]

Magic/Worthy > any duo that Lebron ever beat

Kemp/Payton/Schrempf > Duncan/Parker/Manu

:roll:

[Sulico]

You're lying because outside of 1991, Pippen caused loss or nearly caused loss in every playoffs by getting outscored and outplayed by a 2nd option



* In 1990, Pippen was outscored and outplayed by the Pistons' 2nd option and had the migraine choke that cost the title

* In 1992, he was destroyed by X-man in the 2nd Round, which nearly caused historic upset and derailed the repeat

* In 1993, Pippen was outscored by 2nd option against Atlanta, while having the worst playoff BPM, PER and WS/48 for a winning sidekick ever, and among the worst true shooting.. So are you saying that Lebron can win with the worst-producing sidekick ever? (lowest BPM, PER, and WS/48 ever for winning sidekick in the playoffs)

* In 1994, Pippen was outscored and outplayed by Ewing

* In 1995, Pippen was outscored and outplayed by Larry Johnson in the 1st Round, while his 19 on 40% caused loss in the 2nd Round

* In the 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen was outscored by opposing 2nd options in the 96' ECF, 96' Finals, and the 97' 1st Round, while nearly causing loss in the 98' ECF by getting outplayed by Smits (16.6 on 39% for Pippen... 16.2 on 55% for Smits)

* In the 99-03' Playoffs, Pippen averaged 11 ppg and was 1876th option for the Rockets and Blazers


In addition to getting outscored by an opposing 2nd option in every playoff run, Pippen had worst-ever efficiency

16 on 50% isn't bad, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed and Pippen had 3 of the 7 worst true shootings in playoff history for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98)..

ESPN details Pippen's Westbrook efficiency here (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) (Pippen had Westbrook efficiency with half the production across the board)

In their first championships:

1991 Jordan's best 4 teammates BPM:
Pippen - 6.5
Armstrong - 4.5
Grant - 2.2
Levingston - 1.6
TOTAL - 14.8

1991 Magic's best 4 teammates BPM:
Divac - 4.3
Perkins - 3.8
Campbell - 2.7
Scott - 1.0
TOTAL - 11.8

Jordan's teammates gave him 3 BPM over Magic's


2012 Lebron's best 4 teammates BPM
Wade - 5.3
Bosh - 2.5
Miller - 1.5
Chalmers - 1.3
TOTAL - 10.6

2012 Durant's best 4 teammates BPM
Harden - 3.5
Westbrook - 3.4
Ibaka - 2.4
Sefolosha - 2.2
TOTAL - 11.5

Durant's teammates gave him 0.9 BPM over Lebron's

As we can see, Jordan had much better teammates over his matching superstar, while Lebron had worse teammates, and still won easily. I don't think I have to do other seasons, I believe result will be the same, as Jordan was the only Superstar with superteam throughout 90's while Lebron met others.

[SaintzFury13]

Kukoc... he was the starter in the 98' Playoffs...

Not even going to read the rest of your post.

Here it is guys. 3ball thinks Kukoc can provide Rodman's rebounding and defense. Kukoc.

[Hey Yo]

He lost me at AIDS, which revealed that it was a troll post and not serious about the runner-up for MVP Magic in 1991

The voters were surprised by Magic and those Lakers. That's why they voted him runner-up

[ELITEpower23]

Magic/Worthy > any duo that Lebron ever beat

Kemp/Payton/Schrempf > Duncan/Parker/Manu

The Mavs and Spurs compare to Jordans Finals opponents, while Lebron had the preseason favorite in 2016 and his sidekick destroyed Curry - anyone wins in that scenario

Free comedy hour :roll::lol

[000]

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league