Pippen vs Kawhi [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 07:39 PM

Literally not one person on this entire forum outside of the usual LeBron **********s would agree that Pippen is better than Kawhi

Not a single one

Again, you are just further proving my point. You are literally incapable of arguing Kawhi>Pippen because you lack the intelligence to do so. So now you're resorting to having others fight your battles for you. It's one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen.

Again I never said that Ty Lawson was the best player on that Nuggets team you know that's not what I meant I was basing it off scoring

Yes, you did. Otherwise, you would not have changed your tune the moment I pointed out that Iggy was the leader, not Lawson. You never once mentioned scoring. You never once clarified it. You just straight up went "oh my bad, Iggy then".

You're not fooling anyone.

And you still haven't addressed Kawhi being far superior in every advanced metric, you just act like you didn't read that point that I made and claim that you destroyed me :facepalm[/quote]

The metrics that prove Kawhi was a better scorer? Why would I argue against something I don't disagree with?

Why continue to lie, that shit is lame

The guy who spends his entire time on this site shitting on LeBron, but then claims he's not anti-LeBron and is a fan, and you're accusing me of lying.

You always continue to amaze.

ELITEpower23

09-18-2021, 07:44 PM

Btw if you're going to bring up RealGM they had Kawhi 27th in the top peaks list and Pippen not in the top 40

https://i.postimg.cc/PxBsqqP3/Screenshot-20210919-003407.jpg

Pippen wasn't even considered

You already got wrecked. 32 to 42 is 10 spots difference. That is like Kobe 12 vs MJ 2 type of gap :lol NOT CLOSE.

And sure, Kawhi had a better peak than Pippen but I'd take Pippen as a player because he has a better, more robust career. Which is why he was voted 32 vs 42...You done now? :lol

Manny98

09-18-2021, 07:45 PM

Manny98

09-18-2021, 07:47 PM

You already got wrecked. 32 to 42 is 10 spots difference. That is like Kobe 12 vs MJ 2 type of gap :lol NOT CLOSE.

And sure, Kawhi had a better peak than Pippen but I'd take Pippen as a player because he has a better, more robust career. Which is why he was voted 32 vs 42...You done now? :lol

Again learn to to read I even bolded it for you

Not talking about careers, just as players who's better

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 07:52 PM

The metrics that prove Kawhi is a superior player?

Who said just scoring?

You still can't even address the metrics because when you do you've already lost because Kawhi burns Pippen in every advanced metric :oldlol:

Hence why all you can do is resort to your only bullshit argument "Becuz he wan 55 without MJ hez Betta"

Which again, I never once resorted to. In fact that wasn't even my main argument. That was something you brought up because it was the only part of my argument that you thought you were smart enough to handle. And you couldn't even handle that properly.

And of course metrics are going to favor Leonard. He was the top player on his team for the majority of his career. Pippen wasn't. It's why I'm not bothering with the metrics argument because it's idiotic. But again, I already know that you don't understand how metrics work. It's why a guy like MadDog stopped bringing them up the moment I pointed that out.

Manny98

09-18-2021, 07:56 PM

Which again, I never once resorted to. In fact that wasn't even my main argument. That was something you brought up because it was the only part of my argument that you thought you were smart enough to handle. And you couldn't even handle that properly.

And of course metrics are going to favor Leonard. He was the top player on his team for the majority of his career. Pippen wasn't. It's why I'm not bothering with the metrics argument because it's idiotic. But again, I already know that you don't understand how metrics work. It's why a guy like MadDog stopped bringing them up the moment I pointed that out.
More bullshit excuses

We can compare Pippen in his year as a first option in the 94 season where he finshed 3rd in MVP voting to Kawhi years as a first option

Your literally avoiding to make a case of why Pippen is better than Kawhi using stats, it's hilarious watching you squirm when it comes to discussing advanced stats between the two, you're avoiding it like the f*cling plague :oldlol:

ELITEpower23

09-18-2021, 08:01 PM

Again learn to to read I even bolded it for you

This guy wants to compare players but do not look at their careers :roll:

Agenda FAILED

What are we supposed to be comparing then? Who has the better hair style? Manny has fallen off a cliff after his sex change. Ya hate to see it.

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 08:21 PM

More bullshit excuses

We can compare Pippen in his year as a first option in the 94 season where he finshed 3rd in MVP voting to Kawhi years as a first option

Your literally avoiding to make a case of why Pippen is better than Kawhi using stats, it's hilarious watching you squirm when it comes to discussing advanced stats between the two, you're avoiding it like the f*cling plague :oldlol:

I'm not avoiding it, I'm openly disregarding it. If I avoided it I wouldn't even mention it.

Again, how are you this stupid?

Manny98

09-18-2021, 08:34 PM

I'm not avoiding it, I'm openly disregarding it. If I avoided it I wouldn't even mention it.

Again, how are you this stupid?
Yep you're avoiding it bud because you can't argue it

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 08:36 PM

Yep you're avoiding it bud because you can't argue it

I literally did just argue it. Using advanced metrics to compare two people who had totally different roles on their team is idiotic. So far you've had no retort to this other than claiming it's an excuse. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.

Manny98

09-18-2021, 08:39 PM

I literally did just argue it. Using advanced metrics to compare two people who had totally different roles on their team is idiotic. So far you've had no retort to this other than claiming it's an excuse. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.

That's why I literally said to use the year where Pippen was the first option and finshed 3rd in MVP voting to compare to Kawhis best year as the number 1 option :facepalm

MadDog

09-18-2021, 08:51 PM

LeBron fans love them some numbers, but choose to ignore them here. :confusedshrug: Outside of maybe 1 or 2 posters, the rest voting for Pippen are trolling you lol

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 09:18 PM

That's why I literally said to use the year where Pippen was the first option and finshed 3rd in MVP voting to compare to Kawhis best year as the number 1 option :facepalm

Kawhi Leonard being the number one option on offense and Scottie Pippen being the number one option on offense are two completely different things. What part of "different roles" are you not understanding here?

You know what, **** it. Let's go ahead and do your little experiment so you can realize how pointless it is. Kawhi was third in MVP voting in 2016 I believe, so we'll use that year for the sake of fairness.

In that year, all offensive categories pretty much go to Kawhi, and yet Scottie actually comes out on top in VORP (value over replacement player), which implies he was more valuable to his team than Kawhi was. Now why might that be? Well I don't know, maybe because Pippen is RUNNING THE OFFENSE. Kawhi Leonard isn't. Kawhi Leonard in 2016 shot the ball at an incredibly efficient rate. Hell he almost joined the 50/40/90 club that season. But he still doesn't crack Pippen in one of the most important metrics. Oh and by the way, almost all defensive metrics when comparing to Kawhi in 2016 favor Scottie. But Leonard does easily win box plus/minus.

And by the way, 2016 was when Kawhi won his second DOPY award. And yet defensive metrics favored Pippen. That pretty much says it all.

What is my point in all of this? 2016 is probably Kawhi's best season stats wise and yet Pippen is pretty much even with him as far as advanced stats are concerned. That is the weakness of using advanced metrics with your argument. And just to warn you now, just in case you want to try to use 2019 where Kawhi won the title in Toronto, the metrics are far less favorable for him in that season.

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 09:19 PM

LeBron fans love them some numbers, but choose to ignore them here. :confusedshrug: Outside of maybe 1 or 2 posters, the rest voting for Pippen are trolling you lol

Pretty much. I'm actually surprised the gap isn't bigger right now. This is what happens when you make a thread that is clearly out of spite. So far this has backfired hilariously against Manny.

HoopsNY

09-18-2021, 09:26 PM

Pippen was the indisputable best player on six championship teams, took prime Kobe/Shaq duo to 7 games as an aged veteran. Kawhi wasn’t even the best player on his team in 2014, give me Pip any day.

Pippen was the undisputed best player on all six championship teams, which is why he won zero FMVP awards and MJ won all 6.

Kawhi has multiple DPOY awards and two FMVPs, including a legendary 2019 title run that Pippen had the chance to do but failed miserably in 1994 because he was a choke artist. Get real. It's clear you're just trolling now.

HoopsNY

09-18-2021, 09:30 PM

Kawhi in the playoffs from 2014-21 puts up 25/8/4/2/1 on 62% TS%. There just isn't any comparison. If he's a role player like he was in 2014, he's dominating on the defensive end and dropping insane efficiency numbers like he did against the Heat.

If he's the main option and go to guy like in 2019, he's leading his team on an individual legendary run like few have in league history.

Pippen never did anything like that and the two aren't comparable. If MJ has Kawhi from 1989-98, he wins 8 titles.

SaintzFury13

09-18-2021, 09:31 PM

Pippen was the undisputed best player on all six championship teams, which is why he won zero FMVP awards and MJ won all 6.

Kawhi has multiple DPOY awards and two FMVPs, including a legendary 2019 title run that Pippen had the chance to do but failed miserably in 1995 because he was a choke artist. Get real. It's clear you're just trolling now.

You mean 94, right?

HoopsNY

09-18-2021, 09:35 PM

You mean 94, right?

Yes, fixed*

ELITEpower23

09-18-2021, 10:05 PM

This guy wants to compare players but do not look at their careers :roll:

Agenda FAILED

What are we supposed to be comparing then? Who has the better hair style? Manny has fallen off a cliff after his sex change. Ya hate to see it.

Manny? You shook my boy?

HBK_Kliq_2

09-18-2021, 10:43 PM

Again learn to to read I even bolded it for you

Pippen didn't even have a better career either. Kawhi won 2 finals mvps and only went to 3. While pippen was 0/6 on finals mvps.

Regular season kawhi has more top 5 mvp candidate seasons as well.

Pippen is the black Manu, looks like him too. Except Manu in the 2005 finals was way closer to a finals MVP then pippen ever was.

Full Court

09-18-2021, 10:47 PM

I've always been a fan of Pippen, but this really isn't even close. Kawhi is significantly better. Those that are voting for Pippen in the poll have to be Lebron-fantasizing trolls.

AussieSteve

09-18-2021, 11:28 PM

Kawhi has a better mid-range game.

Pippen has a better overall game.

Pippen.

outofstomach

09-19-2021, 12:51 AM

How can I pick the guy that doesn't even player half the games he is supposed to play?

Big Dick Pip wins this
after kawhi’s 2019 playoff run he was considered better than lebron, best in the world

if pippen is better than him in spite of that, then pippen is better than lebron, and we need to adjust our all time lists :applause:

Ryoka Narusawa

09-19-2021, 01:08 AM

Cuh-why

AussieSteve

09-19-2021, 04:07 AM

after kawhi’s 2019 playoff run he was considered better than lebron, best in the world

if pippen is better than him in spite of that, then pippen is better than lebron, and we need to adjust our all time lists :applause:

Who ever considered Kawhi better than LeBron, apart from Max Kellerman? Who for some reason seems to think that FMVP = BITW

Kawhi was not even that good in the finals in 2019. He was fine, but not exceptional by any stretch. Almost all of the big plays for Toronto in that series were made by Lowry, Siakam et al.

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 10:49 AM

Who ever considered Kawhi better than LeBron, apart from Max Kellerman? Who for some reason seems to think that FMVP = BITW

Kawhi was not even that good in the finals in 2019. He was fine, but not exceptional by any stretch. Almost all of the big plays for Toronto in that series were made by Lowry, Siakam et al.

2019 Kawhi was getting recognition over 2019 LeBron, due to his regular season and playoff/finals performances. It's well known that many across the media and fanbase were putting Kawhi as the best player in the game.

In addition, there were many who thought the Spurs had a legit chance to beat KD's superteam in 2017 had he not gotten injured. IIRC, SA was up by like 25 prior to Kawhi getting hurt in game 1.

000

09-19-2021, 11:01 AM

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 11:06 AM

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league

Good job using Pippen's peak year and not using Kawhi's.

Now please show us Pippen's 1994 playoff numbers to Kawhi's 2019.

Pippen - 2nd round exit and sitting on the bench like a whiney man child while Kukoc drains a game winner

Kawhi - Hits a game winner, shutting down multiple superstars, winning a title and FMVP

97 bulls

09-19-2021, 11:06 AM

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league

Great comparisons. And Leonard wouldn't have gotten a DPOY award in the 90s with Olajuwan, Robinson, Rodman, and Mourning.

000

09-19-2021, 11:09 AM

Good job using Pippen's peak year and not using Kawhi's.

Now please show us Pippen's 1994 playoff numbers to Kawhi's 2019.

Pippen - 2nd round exit and sitting on the bench like a whiney man child while Kukoc drains a game winner

Kawhi - Hits a game winner, shutting down multiple superstars, winning a title and FMVP
Pippen has only one full 1st option season, so what else was I supposed to use...

And Kawhi nearly lost to Embiid and Bum Simmons's 50-win eastern team, dont overhype him.

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 11:16 AM

Pippen has only one full 1st option season, so what else was I supposed to use...

And Kawhi nearly lost to Embiid and Bum Simmons's 50-win eastern team, dont overhype him.

"Nearly lost". That was a team with Harris-Embiid-Simmons-Redick-Butler, but I'm "overhyping"? Kawhi put up 35/10/4/1 on 63% TS%, including the game winner in game 7. In addition, he switched onto Embiid and was shutting him down.

Show us where Pippen was:

- Shutting down elite players
- Hitting decisive game winners (this is the funniest one of all)
- Dominating on the offensive end

....at any rate as close to Kawhi did in 2019. We'll wait.

Furthermore, Pippen had his chance to show up offensively in 1995 as a 1st option before MJ returned. Fact is, he was nowhere near the shooter/scorer that Kawhi is.

000

09-19-2021, 11:19 AM

"Nearly lost". That was a team with Harris-Embiid-Simmons-Redick-Butler, but I'm "overhyping"? Kawhi put up 35/10/4/1 on 63% TS%, including the game winner in game 7. In addition, he switched onto Embiid and was shutting him down.

Show us where Pippen was:

- Shutting down elite players
- Hitting decisive game winners (this is the funniest one of all)
- Dominating on the offensive end

....at any rate as close to Kawhi did in 2019. We'll wait.

Furthermore, Pippen had his chance to show up offensively in 1995 as a 1st option before MJ returned. Fact is, he was nowhere near the shooter/scorer that Kawhi is.
Kawhi nearly lost to Embiid and Bum Simmons's 50-win eastern team. Cry more about it.

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 11:23 AM

Kawhi nearly lost to Embiid and Bum Simmons's 50-win eastern team. Cry more about it.

No mention of Harris only playing 27 games due to a mid-season trade, Butler only playing 55 games, and Embiid only playing 64 games.

But Kawhi "nearly" lost, meanwhile Pippen DID lose. You really can't make this stuff up. :lol

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 11:26 AM

Great comparisons. And Leonard wouldn't have gotten a DPOY award in the 90s with Olajuwan, Robinson, Rodman, and Mourning.

Kawhi was a dominant defensive player in an era without hand checking that lacks physicality. You're obviously not accounting for that and the fact that if you put Kawhi in the 1990s, his defensive abilities are upped simply because he would be allowed to do more.

Not to mention, I find it funny that Kawhi wouldn't win a DPOY award with those guys in the era, but Gary Payton did just that in 1996. So it comes down to how much better do you think GP was defensively than Kawhi.

97 bulls

09-19-2021, 11:26 AM

Good job using Pippen's peak year and not using Kawhi's.

Now please show us Pippen's 1994 playoff numbers to Kawhi's 2019.

Pippen - 2nd round exit and sitting on the bench like a whiney man child while Kukoc drains a game winner

Kawhi - Hits a game winner, shutting down multiple superstars, winning a title and FMVP
94 Pippen and 19 Leonard played the same role but different situations. The Raptors don't win a championship over the Warriors if Durant doesn't tear his achilles.

97 bulls

09-19-2021, 11:28 AM

Kawhi was a dominant defensive player in an era without hand checking that lacks physicality. You're obviously not accounting for that and the fact that if you put Kawhi in the 1990s, his defensive abilities are upped simply because he would be allowed to do more.

Not to mention, I find it funny that Kawhi wouldn't win a DPOY award with those guys in the era, but Gary Payton did just that in 1996. So it comes down to how much better do you think GP was defensively than Kawhi.

So are you willing to apply the same logic and say that Pippens scoring improves to about 25ppg and his rebounds to about 10 and his assists to roughly 7bin this era? Be consistent.

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 11:39 AM

94 Pippen and 19 Leonard played the same role but different situations. The Raptord don't win s championship over the Warriors if Durant doesn't tear his achilles.

You might be right, but he still got them to the finals, whereas Pippen couldn't even get his team to the ECF and had to feast on a Cavs team that lost all of their main starters except for Mark Price.

Again, that is more that Kawhi can say than Pippen can say for his entire career. In addition, Kawhi's performances in the first three rounds were miles above and beyond anything that Pippen did for his entire career.

Again - 35/10/4/1/1 on 63% TS%, including a game 7 where he dropped 41 points and 8 rebounds, 3 steals, with a game winner. And in the 4th quarter? Kawhi dropped 16 points on 6-9 shooting.

Pippen's career game 7 stats: 6 games | 12/9/4/2/0 on 41% TS%

Kawhi's career game 7 stats: 6 games | 21/9/3/2/1 on 50% TS%

Pippen is a career choker and you just have to admit that.

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 11:45 AM

So are you willing to apply the same logic and say that Pippens scoring improves to about 25ppg and his rebounds to about 10 and his assists to roughly 7bin this era? Be consistent.

25 PPG? No. Because his PPG in the late 80s and early 90s didn't hit that high when the league ORTG and pace were high. Go back and look at it. The league ORTG was around 107-108 back then and the pace was around 98.

Take Kawhi's 2016 and 2017 seasons as examples. The league pace and ORTG were lower than they were for much of the late 80s and early 90s, and he still managed to average 21 PPG and 26 PPG, respectively. The early 90s include some of Pippen's best years (1991 and 1992 for example), and he didn't approach Kawhi's 2017 season.

Now I do believe Pippen's production increases. He's probably scoring 22-23 PPG on higher efficiency. But his defensive abilities become limited.

The fact remains, Kawhi's playoff and finals performances outweigh Pippen's by a mile. He has 2 FMVPs. He's a far better game 7 performer. The gap is just too big there. And his peak year (2019), trumps what Pippen did in his (1994). Pippen's 1994 playoffs was embarrassing given him sitting out a final shot against NY.

MadDog

09-19-2021, 12:01 PM

Great posts by HoopsNY. The comaprison reminds me of the Prime Wade and Pippen one. Its not that Pippen was a bum, but by comparison, he just doesn't stack up. Regardless of era and number crunching, everything tangible pointed to Wade being the better player. Same deal with Kawhi. We can talk about roles played, but even as their teams go-to, Kawhi's had superior postseason play.

SaintzFury13

09-19-2021, 01:21 PM

97 bulls

09-19-2021, 02:08 PM

25 PPG? No. Because his PPG in the late 80s and early 90s didn't hit that high when the league ORTG and pace were high. Go back and look at it. The league ORTG was around 107-108 back then and the pace was around 98.

Take Kawhi's 2016 and 2017 seasons as examples. The league pace and ORTG were lower than they were for much of the late 80s and early 90s, and he still managed to average 21 PPG and 26 PPG, respectively. The early 90s include some of Pippen's best years (1991 and 1992 for example), and he didn't approach Kawhi's 2017 season.

Now I do believe Pippen's production increases. He's probably scoring 22-23 PPG on higher efficiency. But his defensive abilities become limited.

The fact remains, Kawhi's playoff and finals performances outweigh Pippen's by a mile. He has 2 FMVPs. He's a far better game 7 performer. The gap is just too big there. And his peak year (2019), trumps what Pippen did in his (1994). Pippen's 1994 playoffs was embarrassing given him sitting out a final shot against NY.

I thought we were comparing 94 to 19? And don't forget, Pippen shared the ball with Jordan in the early 90s and he wasn't in his prime.

outofstomach

09-19-2021, 02:47 PM

No mention of Harris only playing 27 games due to a mid-season trade, Butler only playing 55 games, and Embiid only playing 64 games.

But Kawhi "nearly" lost, meanwhile Pippen DID lose. You really can't make this stuff up. :lol
actually laughing irl :lol these ****ing idiots are crazy :lol

MrFonzworth

09-19-2021, 08:49 PM

Manny got the incels fuming:applause:

francesco totti

09-19-2021, 08:58 PM

Kawhi was the go-to guy, Pippen never made it apart from being 2nd fiddle.

3ba11

09-19-2021, 09:06 PM

Most winning sidekicks are actually elite 1st options like Kobe, Wade, AD or Curry - these guys all played sidekick but also had amazing peak capability/peak stats as 1st option.. Otoh, Pippen was a true 2nd option with low peak capability/stats.

So it's not even close - if Kawhi was a 2nd option, his peak capability would put him in the Curry/Kobe class of sidekick, while Pippen's low peak stats put him in the true 2nd option category, like Klay Thompson, Pau, or Rip Hamilton.. and if you gave Klay or Pau a 3-peat team, they would win 55 because that's a low bar - heck, they don't even need a 3-peat system to achieve.. lots of bums win 50 games and lose in 2nd Round

HoopsNY

09-19-2021, 09:22 PM

I thought we were comparing 94 to 19? And don't forget, Pippen shared the ball with Jordan in the early 90s and he wasn't in his prime.

Pippen averaged 21 PPG in 1992. He peaked at 22 PPG in 1994 and 1995 without MJ. Not having MJ made no difference. And the point is even if we adjust for 2019, then the difference is still significant, especially when you consider the playoffs.

Do you see Pippen putting up 34/10/4 PPG on 63% in the ECF against Philly? Or 30/10/4 on 57% TS% against Milwaukee? And then winning a FMVP? He's not Kawhi. Kawhi's elite scoring and man defense puts him ahead of Pippen.

kawhileonard2

09-19-2021, 10:12 PM

Kawhi no contest. Kawhi has DPOY and finals mvp's.

97 bulls

09-19-2021, 10:25 PM

Pippen averaged 21 PPG in 1992. He peaked at 22 PPG in 1994 and 1995 without MJ. Not having MJ made no difference. And the point is even if we adjust for 2019, then the difference is still significant, especially when you consider the playoffs.
You're jumping around here bro. You alluded to the late 80s and early 90s and Pippen not being a 20 ppg scorer. That's why I brought up his playing with Jordan. When Jordan left, scoring in the league began to decline in scoring. From 107 in 90 to 101 by 94. 6 points a game is a huuuuuuge drop. Huge. Just to add scale, the league average for ppg was 111 in 19. Are you really saying that if you out the 94 Bulls in a league that averaged 10 more points a night, Pippen's numbers stay the same? Or his scoring only goes up 1 point? �� come on bro. This is why I say STOP COMPARING STATS ACROSS ERAS. Unless you going to take all facets into account.

Do you see Pippen putting up 34/10/4 PPG on 63% in the ECF against Philly? Or 30/10/4 on 57% TS% against Milwaukee? And then winning a FMVP? He's not Kawhi. Kawhi's elite scoring and man defense puts him ahead of Pippen.
No. I see Pippen doing 29/12/9 on slightly lower efficiency and very good man defense a wreaking total havoc as a roamer on defense. Because again, I'm taking into account the eras. And most importantly Pippens skillet as more of a PG. Playing in a league that is centered around small ball.

Round Mound

09-20-2021, 01:36 AM

Kawhi is obviously better cause he is alot greater than Pippen on Offense and Very Good on Man to Man D. What Pippen had was being a better creator of offense a Point-Forward ballhandling and open floor making desicions. Pippen was also Great at Both Man to Man D and Team Defense.

houston

09-20-2021, 01:56 AM

Pippen slightly due durability and versatile. You can put Pippen on suspect team and he can carry the load. Leonard never show that he can really do that. One thing about 19 Raptors people don't give enough credit to Marc Gasol.

Gohan

09-20-2021, 02:03 AM

I like pippen but I take the guy with equal defense and 10x better offense.

This

HoopsNY

09-20-2021, 07:55 AM

You're jumping around here bro. You alluded to the late 80s and early 90s and Pippen not being a 20 ppg scorer. That's why I brought up his playing with Jordan. When Jordan left, scoring in the league began to decline in scoring. From 107 in 90 to 101 by 94. 6 points a game is a huuuuuuge drop. Huge. Just to add scale, the league average for ppg was 111 in 19. Are you really saying that if you out the 94 Bulls in a league that averaged 10 more points a night, Pippen's numbers stay the same? Or his scoring only goes up 1 point? �� come on bro. This is why I say STOP COMPARING STATS ACROSS ERAS. Unless you going to take all facets into account.

That's definitely one way of looking at it, but look at 1992 - which was prior to the summer Olympics and Pippen's bad ankle. You can't only rely on PPG. You have to look at ORTG and Pace as well, and 1992 and 1994 were more akin than anything else.

Pippen averaged 21 PPG on 51/20/76 splits. In 1994 he averaged 22 on 49/32/66 splits. And 1994 was without MJ. Those two years are closer considering 1993 was an injured year for him.

I didn't say Pippen's numbers stay the same, but I certainly don't think he would produce to the level that Kawhi did.

No. I see Pippen doing 29/12/9 on slightly lower efficiency and very good man defense a wreaking total havoc as a roamer on defense. Because again, I'm taking into account the eras. And most importantly Pippens skillet as more of a PG. Playing in a league that is centered around small ball.

On what planet does Pippen put up 29 PPG given his lack of skills? Kawhi is an elite mid-range shooter and excellent three point shooter. Pippen has no elite offensive skills outside of his ability to run in transition. And I also think Pippen averaging 12 Rebs is a bit of a stretch.

Does Pippen put up 24/9/7/2/1 on 55-56% TS%? Yea, probably. But I don't think he dominates the way we've seen Kawhi do it. Pippen just wasn't that guy. And God forbid you put him in a big spot. Like, he isn't going to give you big numbers in a conference finals or finals.

Lebron23

09-20-2021, 08:21 AM

Pippen in the 1991-93, 1997 NBA finals averaged more points than kawhi in the 2014 NBA finals

Axe

09-20-2021, 08:37 AM

Pip had a very solid career but since he played in such a lackluster era, then i don't see why some guys here think that he's better as a player than kawhit. Especially in both ends. :confusedshrug:

97 bulls

09-20-2021, 08:45 AM

That's definitely one way of looking at it, but look at 1992 - which was prior to the summer Olympics and Pippen's bad ankle. You can't only rely on PPG. You have to look at ORTG and Pace as well, and 1992 and 1994 were more akin than anything else.

Pippen averaged 21 PPG on 51/20/76 splits. In 1994 he averaged 22 on 49/32/66 splits. And 1994 was without MJ. Those two years are closer considering 1993 was an injured year for him.

I didn't say Pippen's numbers stay the same, but I certainly don't think he would produce to the level that Kawhi did.

What would 94 Pippen's raw numbers of 22/9/6 look like in 19? In your opinion..

On what planet does Pippen put up 29 PPG given his lack of skills? Kawhi is an elite mid-range shooter and excellent three point shooter. Pippen has no elite offensive skills outside of his ability to run in transition. And I also think Pippen averaging 12 Rebs is a bit of a stretch.

Does Pippen put up 24/9/7/2/1 on 55-56% TS%? Yea, probably. But I don't think he dominates the way we've seen Kawhi do it. Pippen just wasn't that guy. And God forbid you put him in a big spot. Like, he isn't going to give you big numbers in a conference finals or finals.

Bro. You want to put Pippen's circumstances of the low scoring 90s and apply it to today. That's flat out faulty logic. Look at Giannis for example. Giannis Antekoumpo has no offensive game what so ever but can drop 30 per night. Ben Simmons won't even shoot and his numbers are Pippenesque. The game is just different today.

Manny98

09-20-2021, 08:47 AM

Pippen in the 1991-93, 1997 NBA finals averaged more points than kawhi in the 2014 NBA finals
:facepalm

97 bulls

09-20-2021, 09:02 AM

Pip had a very solid career but since he played in such a lackluster era, then i don't see why some guys here think that he's better as a player than kawhit. Especially in both ends. :confusedshrug:

I for one look at the big picture. I'm more of a results driven guy than stats. And context. I personally feel Pippen's best season was 95, not 94. Even though his stats were better in 94. He virtually kept that team above water on his own.

NBA fans are extremely fickle. Almost female-like with regards to applying context. Take NFL fans for instance. Barry Sanders put up great numbers, but he was a boom or bust guy. He'd lose 5 years, then get you 55. So his numbers looked awesome. We all know it's due in large part to Sanders not having a great offensive line. Jerry Rice is considered the greatest receiver ever, yet his numbers are nothing like what receivers get today. But everyone knows it's due to today's league being different from when Rice played.

Context matters most when drawing comparisons. NBA Fans don't want to apply it. Many of them anyway.

97 bulls

09-20-2021, 09:03 AM

:facepalm

Lol

Axe

09-20-2021, 11:04 AM

I for one look at the big picture. I'm more of a results driven guy than stats. And context. I personally feel Pippen's best season was 95, not 94. Even though his stats were better in 94. He virtually kept that team above water on his own.

NBA fans are extremely fickle. Almost female-like with regards to applying context. Take NFL fans for instance. Barry Sanders put up great numbers, but he was a boom or bust guy. He'd lose 5 years, then get you 55. So his numbers looked awesome. We all know it's due in large part to Sanders not having a great offensive line. Jerry Rice is considered the greatest receiver ever, yet his numbers are nothing like what receivers get today. But everyone knows it's due to today's league being different from when Rice played.

Context matters most when drawing comparisons. NBA Fans don't want to apply it. Many of them anyway.
Lol yea i only had to make that statement because those who are against jordan have been saying that the 90s were weak af compared to other eras. Now going btt tho, yep pip did great for his role as a sidekick back then and thus his credentials shouldn't be overlooked, despite being an average scorer. I'm actually glad the bulls had him for that decade and how he spearheaded them in '94. At least the team didn't just fall into irrelevance during that time. Sadly, stans who worship mj don't care about his team and therefore, they don't recognize the efforts his teammates have done while his airness himself was on hiatus.

Phoenix

09-20-2021, 11:32 AM

Pippen probably could have scored 24-25ppg between 94-96 if he took the gas off defense, which is basically what Kawhi has done since he doesn't have the highest of motors. Thing is though, the Bulls in 94 and 95 had to establish more of a defensive identity with Jordan gone, so I'm not sure if Scottie putting more effort into offense( at the expense of the defense he was playing those seasons) actually makes the team better. In other words Scottie staying in his pocket as a 21-22ppg scorer with all-world defense on a team that needed his defensive quarterbacking, isn't likely any worse for the Bulls than if he took a few more shots to average 24-25 but sacrificed some level of defensive focus. I mean, in 94 he took 18 shots a game. Taking a shot away from BJ and Horace( they averaged 12 each, or 13 for Horace rounded up) to get Scottie 20 shots doesn't make that team better. It would have gotten Scottie up to 24ppg or thereabouts as proof of his scoring ability 25 years later for internet posters to go on about, but the Bulls wouldn't have been better off in that situation.

Kawhi's defensive peak 4-5 years ago and his ability to drop 27ppg nowadays are mutually exclusive. Yes he can still play great defense in spurts but he'd had to pick his spots more as his offensive output increased.

8Ball

09-20-2021, 11:35 AM

Pippen all day.

8Ball

09-20-2021, 11:36 AM

You're literally fu**ing wrong :lol As per usual ever since you deployed your sex change and switched teams :lol

Real GM has them ten spaces apart and this was BEFORE Kawhi's 2020 and 2021 playoff blunders :roll:

Eat shit

https://i.postimg.cc/Vv4dcdq8/Scottie-32-Kawhi-42.png

Good post.

Jasper

09-20-2021, 02:56 PM

Not talking about careers, just as players who's better

pippen did everything

Kawhi walks down court , 1/3 the time in the offense , and lets his man slide off him on defense...
(I wouldn't of compared these two players)
Pip is above this shit.

SouBeachTalents

09-20-2021, 03:07 PM

Kawhi at his best is a BITW caliber guy in the Kobe/Wade/Durant/Curry tier of players. Pippen, as great as he was, is not.

97 bulls

09-20-2021, 03:15 PM

Phoenix

09-20-2021, 03:29 PM

I agree with everything you've stated other than your assessment that Pippen is an average scorer. I think he's above average but not great. And if he did focus more on scoring, his stats would be there, but ar the cost of winning.

Great post @Phoenix

Thanks for the sentiments, though I don't think Scottie was an average scorer at his best. I happen to think at his peak he was above average especially in the first 3peat, and dropped off in the 2nd 3peat after 96 due to nagging injuries. I think he had 24-25 ppg scoring potential in those Jordan-less years( well, year and a half) if he had focused more on that and less on defense as said before. Also, if memory serves he was scoring like 23 for a good portion of the 96 season and fell off in the 2nd half( again due to injury). And that was with MJ back putting up 30 again. I need to look at his numbers( I'm on my phone at the moment) in 95 too because he ended the year at 21ppg but his scoring took a bit of a dip once MJ returned.

HoopsNY

09-20-2021, 07:23 PM

What would 94 Pippen's raw numbers of 22/9/6 look like in 19? In your opinion..

Bro. You want to put Pippen's circumstances of the low scoring 90s and apply it to today. That's flat out faulty logic. Look at Giannis for example. Giannis Antekoumpo has no offensive game what so ever but can drop 30 per night. Ben Simmons won't even shoot and his numbers are Pippenesque. The game is just different today.

Giannis is an athletic freak who is able to dominate the interior due to a lack of physicality and centers. I think it's safe to say that he would be somewhat neutralized if he has guys like Hakeem, Zo, Mutombo, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and Duncan sitting in the paint waiting for him.

And Ben Simmons? He puts up like 15 PPG. Granted, Pippen was a far better scorer than Simmons will probably ever be.

I think Pippen puts up similar numbers as he did in his career, but he probably does it on slightly higher (not lower) efficiency. And in a league that relies heavily on the mid-range and three pointer, I can't see Pippen doing much more than 23 PPG.

But none of this accounts for the gap in playoff quality performances, something that I believe you're ignoring.

HoopsNY

09-20-2021, 07:24 PM

Pippen in the 1991-93, 1997 NBA finals averaged more points than kawhi in the 2014 NBA finals

And yet Kawhi has a FMVP and Pippen had none. Not to mention, did you watch the 2014 finals? Did you see Kawhi's performances in games 3-4-5? He fundamentally shifted the series and put up ridiculous efficiency numbers in those games, shooting something close to 70% or some crazy stat during those three games, not to mention his effort on the defensive end.

3ba11

09-20-2021, 08:09 PM

Since 1980 (3-pointer basketball), outscoring the opposing 2nd option 75% of the time is the standard for the lower tier of winning sidekicks during their title runs (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry), while the top tier of winning sidekicks outscore the opposing 1st option, routinely achieve elite 1st option stats, or win FMVP (Kobe, Curry, AD, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Kawhi).. So winning rings with the lower tier of sidekick (true 2nd option) is more rare and Jordan did it 6 times.

Btw, Pippen was outscored in 6 of 10 series during the 88-90' and 95' Playoffs, thus losing 4 titles those years - his 60% rate of getting outscored in those years exceeds the 25% threshold of lower tier sidekicks discussed previously.. In addition to Pippen's poor stats that lost 4 titles from 88-90' and 95', Pippen caused loss or nearly caused loss with horrible stats in every other Playoffs aside from 91' (92' ECSF, 93' Playoffs, 96-98 Playoffs, 88-90' Playoffs, 95' Playoffs, 99-03' Playoffs).. He's the worst playoff performer of all-time.

97 bulls

09-20-2021, 08:24 PM

Giannis is an athletic freak who is able to dominate the interior due to a lack of physicality and centers. I think it's safe to say that he would be somewhat neutralized if he has guys like Hakeem, Zo, Mutombo, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and Duncan sitting in the paint waiting for him.
Giannis is a freak of nature. Pippen was no slouch athletically either. And he has more offensive skills than Giannis. I agree that Antekoumpo takes advantage of the lack of great bigs today. Which is why I think Pippens rebound numbers would be better today.

And Ben Simmons? He puts up like 15 PPG. Granted, Pippen was a far better scorer than Simmons will probably ever be.
Simmons gets 15-16ppg and doesn't even look to score. That's my point. If a player that doesn't even really want to score can get 15 a night on 55% shooting, how can you say Pippen's offensive output wouldn't be effected?

I think Pippen puts up similar numbers as he did in his career, but he probably does it on slightly higher (not lower) efficiency. And in a league that relies heavily on the mid-range and three pointer, I can't see Pippen doing much more than 23 PPG.
lol. So for the sake of argument, 94 Pippen in today's league only gains 1 point and maybe 2% points? In a league that AVERAGES 10 points more than it did in the year in question? Who gets the other 9 points?

But none of this accounts for the gap in playoff quality performances, something that I believe you're ignoring.

I don't think he had many, relative to what a pure and knowledgeable basketball fan would say. His impact on the game is what's most important. I don't and will not ever agree with the notion that its better to lose looking good than to win ugly. And that's what the 90s was. UGLY.

97 bulls

09-20-2021, 08:27 PM

And yet Kawhi has a FMVP and Pippen had none. Not to mention, did you watch the 2014 finals? Did you see Kawhi's performances in games 3-4-5? He fundamentally shifted the series and put up ridiculous efficiency numbers in those games, shooting something close to 70% or some crazy stat during those three games, not to mention his effort on the defensive end.

Kinda hard to accomplish that fear playing alongside the GOAT. But he almost did in 98 before his back gave out in game 6. But you seem to only be taking scoring into account.

HoopsNY

09-21-2021, 10:11 PM

Giannis is a freak of nature. Pippen was no slouch athletically either. And he has more offensive skills than Giannis. I agree that Antekoumpo takes advantage of the lack of great bigs today. Which is why I think Pippens rebound numbers would be better today.

He still doesn't produce anywhere near Giannis' 30/13 on high efficiency. It's not a fair comparison is what I'm saying, and no reasonable person would think that because Giannis has done xyz, that Pippen would, too.

Simmons gets 15-16ppg and doesn't even look to score. That's my point. If a player that doesn't even really want to score can get 15 a night on 55% shooting, how can you say Pippen's offensive output wouldn't be effected?

Because I'm not saying Pippen produces 15 PPG on 55%. One of the reasons Simmons' FG% can remain high is due to low volume. Pippen obviously produces more (23-24 PPG is fair), but still doesn't peak like Kawhi or produces like Kawhi in his peak series (35 PPG on 60%+ TS%).

This isn't unreasonable, why? Because Kawhi has the offensive skills to produce that. He's an elite mid-range and three point shooter.

lol. So for the sake of argument, 94 Pippen in today's league only gains 1 point and maybe 2% points? In a league that AVERAGES 10 points more than it did in the year in question? Who gets the other 9 points?

So Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, etc wouldn't score more? Armstrong was a marksman from 3, Grant had a great mid-range game, and Kukoc also had a strong outside game. All of those guys were capable and would thrive in today's game.

I don't think he had many, relative to what a pure and knowledgeable basketball fan would say. His impact on the game is what's most important. I don't and will not ever agree with the notion that its better to lose looking good than to win ugly. And that's what the 90s was. UGLY.

But Kawhi didn't lose. He not only made it to the WCF and Finals, but he also won a title and a FMVP. Pippen choked.

Kinda hard to accomplish that fear playing alongside the GOAT. But he almost did in 98 before his back gave out in game 6. But you seem to only be taking scoring into account.

Games 1-5 Pippen put up horrid numbers as well. Just cause he was getting FMVP talks earlier on in the series doesn't mean he was deserving of it, let alone winning it. That series was MJ's for the taking.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-21-2021, 10:20 PM

Kawhi easily

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 02:17 AM

He still doesn't produce anywhere near Giannis' 30/13 on high efficiency. It's not a fair comparison is what I'm saying, and no reasonable person would think that because Giannis has done xyz, that Pippen would, too.
That's not what I'm saying bro. I never ever ever EVER even implied that Pippen would score 30ppg in today's league. I said roughly 25. At his peak. Which is only 3 pts more than he did in 94.

Because I'm not saying Pippen produces 15 PPG on 55%. One of the reasons Simmons' FG% can remain high is due to low volume. Pippen obviously produces more (23-24 PPG is fair), but still doesn't peak like Kawhi or produces like Kawhi in his peak series (35 PPG on 60%+ TS%).
I'm only applicable to scoring today and in the past. Pippen doesn't have to score 35ppg to be more impactful than Leonard. Are you really basing your assessment of the careers of 2 players to one series? Lol. Come on bro.

This isn't unreasonable, why? Because Kawhi has the offensive skills to produce that. He's an elite mid-range and three point shooter.
I agree that Leonard is a better scorer.. Just not to the level youre making it seem.

So Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, etc wouldn't score more? Armstrong was a marksman from 3, Grant had a great mid-range game, and Kukoc also had a strong outside game. All of those guys were capable and would thrive in today's game.

Sure they would. I never said Pip would average 10 ppg extra. I said about 3-4. So the other 6 would be dispersed between the rest of the team.

But Kawhi didn't lose. He not only made it to the WCF and Finals, but he also won a title and a FMVP. Pippen choked.
Losing a series in 7 games is hardly choking lol. Coughing up a 3-1 lead as a favorite definitely is..

Games 1-5 Pippen put up horrid numbers as well. Just cause he was getting FMVP talks earlier on in the series doesn't mean he was deserving of it, let alone winning it. That series was MJ's for the taking.
Come on bro horrid? Through 1-5? But then even you admit Pippen was getting Finals MVP consideration?

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 02:24 AM

Kawhi easily

Lol. Really Kuniva? Easily? SMH

HoopsNY

09-22-2021, 08:20 AM

That's not what I'm saying bro. I never ever ever EVER even implied that Pippen would score 30ppg in today's league. I said roughly 25. At his peak. Which is only 3 pts more than he did in 94.

I'm only applicable to scoring today and in the past. Pippen doesn't have to score 35ppg to be more impactful than Leonard. Are you really basing your assessment of the careers of 2 players to one series? Lol. Come on bro.

I agree that Leonard is a better scorer.. Just not to the level youre making it seem.

Sure they would. I never said Pip would average 10 ppg extra. I said about 3-4. So the other 6 would be dispersed between the rest of the team.

Losing a series in 7 games is hardly choking lol. Coughing up a 3-1 lead as a favorite definitely is..

Come on bro horrid? Through 1-5? But then even you admit Pippen was getting Finals MVP consideration?

Pippen put up 17 PPG on 39% (on less than 50% TS%) in the first 5 games of that series. Call it what you want, but Kawhi's first finals appearance rivals some of Pippen's. 15/11/1/2/1 on 58% TS% against a super-team in Miami in just his second year in the league.

There's no question that Pippen is the better playmaker. But Kawhi's man defense and elite mid-range/shooting and overall scoring gives him a significant gap with Pippen.

And Pippen choked in 1994. The series went 7 games, but he was underwhelming. Him sitting out a final shot was just embarrassing.

I understand why you're thinking that Pippen puts up 25+ PPG in this era because you're simply adjusting for pace and style of play. But what you're not account for is Pippen's actual skill set.

He doesn't have the size or athleticism of a Giannis to barrel his way to the basket, and he doesn't have the elite jumpshooting/mid-range skill of a guy like Kawhi. You have to apply context yes, but you also must apply the player's skill level as well.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 10:46 AM

Pippen put up 17 PPG on 39% (on less than 50% TS%) in the first 5 games of that series. Call it what you want, but Kawhi's first finals appearance rivals some of Pippen's. 15/11/1/2/1 on 58% TS% against a super-team in Miami in just his second year in the league.
heres Pippen's numbers games 1-5.
7-19 21pts, 8 rebounds
7-13 21pts, 6rbds, 4asts,
5-10 10pts, 4rbds, 4assts (this was the blowout game that was spearheaded by Pippen)
9-18 28pts, 9rbds, 5asts,
2-16 6pts, 11rbds, 11asts

This is what you call "horrid"? GTFO. He almost got a triple double in his worst game!!!! He spearheaded a defense that held the Jazz to a still record low. With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about bro.

There's no question that Pippen is the better playmaker. But Kawhi's man defense and elite mid-range/shooting and overall scoring gives him a significant gap with Pippen.

And Pippen choked in 1994. The series went 7 games, but he was underwhelming. Him sitting out a final shot was just embarrassing.
Bro. Pippen sitting out that play wasn't a choke. He WANTED TO TAKE THE SHOT. That's why he sat out. It was a bad decision. Kawhi and the Clippers coughing up a 3-1 lead as the favorite? While Leonard's gets lit up like a cigarette by Jamal Murray? Now that's a choke. An epic one at that seeing as how the Clippers were heavy favorites to win the Championship.

I understand why you're thinking that Pippen puts up 25+ PPG in this era because you're simply adjusting for pace and style of play. But what you're not account for is Pippen's actual skill set.

He doesn't have the size or athleticism of a Giannis to barrel his way to the basket, and he doesn't have the elite jumpshooting/mid-range skill of a guy like Kawhi. You have to apply context yes, but you also must apply the player's skill level as well.
Oh my God how are you not getting this? Pippen is a great athlete too. And he has more offense skill than Giannis. But take note that while Giannis got to 30, I said Pippen would probably max out at about 25-26. I'm still saying Antekoumpo would score more. I'm not saying Pippen is a 30ppg scorer. Hell Kawhi got 27. So I'm not even saying he'd be on the level of Leonard. Hell I wouldn't want him to be. Because I believe his defense would be effected. Like Leonard's has been. Leonard is NOT the defender he was at one time. He won't play hurt, he take games off (load management), and he can't stay healthy. He lucked up in Toronto and won a Championship even though he didn't really improve the team much in wins, and the Raptors didn't really miss a beat when he left. They just weren't as lucky. Lol.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 10:50 AM

And you guys want to talk about choke? Watch this Kawhi video.

https://youtu.be/9pf3CzPfD1w
https://youtu.be/9pf3CzPfD1w

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-22-2021, 11:38 AM

Lol. Really Kuniva? Easily? SMH

Far as careers, Pippen's got a case. But prime for prime, I believe Kawhi's scoring elevates him.

I also think Kawhi's defense gets under-looked. Especially when you consider the lax rules and lack of handchecking. Kawhi's mitts would be feral in the 90s.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 11:44 AM

Far as careers, Pippen's got a case. But prime for prime, I believe Kawhi's scoring elevates him.

I also think Kawhi's defense gets under-looked, especially when you consider the lax rules and lack of handchecking. Kawhi's mitts would be fierce in the 90s.

Lol. His defense get "overlooked"? Or overrated? How can his defense get overlooked when he's got 2 DPOY awards? Did you read my post to NYHoops? You do t thinks Pippens ability to cover ground on defense would be much more effective today if he doesn't have to worry about guarding a man? Did you see what Jamal Murray did to Leoanard in 2020?

I think you guys are taking Spurs Leonard defense and Clippers Leonard offense and meshing them together.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-22-2021, 11:58 AM

Lol. His defense get "overlooked"? Or overrated? How can his defense get overlooked when he's got 2 DPOY awards? Did you read my post to NYHoops? You do t thinks Pippens ability to cover ground on defense would be much more effective today if he doesn't have to worry about guarding a man? Did you see what Jamal Murray did to Leoanard in 2020?

I think you guys are taking Spurs Leonard defense and Clippers Leonard offense and meshing them together.

Compared to Pippen, whose mainstay is defense, Kawhi definitely gets underlooked.

Yeah Kawhi won 2 DPOYs, but he did it in a league where rules are geared toward scoring. It only makes sense that Kawhi's defense in the 90s would carry even more weight. Pippen's defense wouldn't be better today. You could argue his help d would be on a similar level, but Pippen was a physical defender and bodied guys up. You can't do that in today's climate. Not consistently anyway.

Kawhi's prime also began in San Antonio. I'm including a few of his years there as well.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 12:40 PM

Compared to Pippen, whose mainstay is defense, Kawhi definitely gets underlooked.

Yeah Kawhi won 2 DPOYs, but he did it in a league where rules are geared toward scoring. It only makes sense that Kawhi's defense in the 90s would carry even more weight. Pippen's defense wouldn't be better today. You could argue his help d would be on a similar level, but Pippen was a physical defender and bodied guys up. You can't do that in today's climate. Not consistently anyway.

Kawhi's prime also began in San Antonio. I'm including a few of his years there as well.

Kawhi's defense does not get overlooked. Look at this thread. Not one person that picked Kawhi negated his defensive prowess. They even put it on Pippens level.

And you totally dismissed my rebuttal. Pippens biggest impact defensively was help defense. He was a very good man defender. But his ability to cover ground is what makes his defense so impactful. And that was when the zone wasn't allowed. So he had to honor an offensive player or get hit with an illegal defense call. He wouldn't have to worry about that today. Pippen would be an even better defender today. Yall just hate Pippen.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 12:45 PM

https://youtu.be/eOoWZNp0AlA

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-22-2021, 01:27 PM

Kawhi's defense does not get overlooked. Look at this thread. Not one person that picked Kawhi negated his defensive prowess. They even put it on Pippens level.

And you totally dismissed my rebuttal. Pippens biggest impact defensively was help defense. He was a very good man defender. But his ability to cover ground is what makes his defense so impactful. And that was when the zone wasn't allowed. So he had to honor an offensive player or get hit with an illegal defense call. He wouldn't have to worry about that today. Pippen would be an even better defender today. Yall just hate Pippen.

I 'hate' Pippen because imo Kawhi is better? You sound emotional, 97. :lol

The context I laid out doesn't get brought up. They see Kawhi's 2 DPOYs and think he might be on Pippen's level. But they omit Kawhi's physical attributes, and them being fully maxed out in the 90s. An era that didn't have freedom of movement, but one allowing you to put hands on a player.

Your retort sounds good in theory, but the NBA doesn't run real zone. I already said that Pippen's help defense would be on a similar level, but its damn near fact that his physical attributes get weakened. Pippen used his standing reach and bodied dudes up. Those are ticky tack fouls in the game now. Did you watch the video you linked? Kobe says that Pippen is 'bodying and bodying Mark all the way'. Again, you can't do that in 2021.

RRR3

09-22-2021, 01:35 PM

Kuniva doesn’t hate Pippen. Quite the contrary. He’s one of the more objective posters we got left.

Kawhi is better peak for but there’s a pretty high chance he never passes Pippen on the GOAT list

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-22-2021, 01:39 PM

dankok8

09-22-2021, 01:39 PM

Kawhi obviously has a better peak.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 03:27 PM

I 'hate' Pippen because imo Kawhi is better? You sound emotional, 97. :lol
Hardly emorional. I'd just like to see some consistency. Like this quote you made here
"
"Especially when you consider the lax rules and lack of handchecking."
You said this bro. Now if I ask you to tell me your opinion on how Pippen fairs offensivly, I'm sure you'd say his offense would be minimallyrics effected. Even though you agree that its easier to score.Now why is that? What do Leonards offensive numbers look like if he played in the 90s?

The context I laid out doesn't get brought up. They see Kawhi's 2 DPOYs and think he might be on Pippen's level. But they omit Kawhi's physical attributes, and them being fully maxed out in the 90s. An era that didn't have freedom of movement, but one allowing you to put hands on a player.
Again, look at the post in this thread bro. What more do you want?

Your retort sounds good in theory, but the NBA doesn't run real zone. I already said that Pippen's help defense would be on a similar level, but its damn near fact that his physical attributes get weakened. Pippen used his standing reach and bodied dudes up. Those are ticky tack fouls in the game now. Did you watch the video you linked? Kobe says that Pippen is 'bodying and bodying Mark all the way'. Again, you can't do that in 2021.

It's not illegal to body a player. It's illegal to put your hands on a player as to impede their progress or try to force them with your hands. You said it yourself. Pippen didn't even use his hands in that video. It's all footwork, anticipation, and effort. Are you actually paying attention to what you're saying?

HoopsNY

09-22-2021, 08:22 PM

heres Pippen's numbers games 1-5.
7-19 21pts, 8 rebounds
7-13 21pts, 6rbds, 4asts,
5-10 10pts, 4rbds, 4assts (this was the blowout game that was spearheaded by Pippen)
9-18 28pts, 9rbds, 5asts,
2-16 6pts, 11rbds, 11asts

This is what you call "horrid"? GTFO. He almost got a triple double in his worst game!!!! He spearheaded a defense that held the Jazz to a still record low. With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about bro.

You're right. I'm getting old. Still doesn't hold a candle to Kawhi, though.

Bro. Pippen sitting out that play wasn't a choke. He WANTED TO TAKE THE SHOT. That's why he sat out. It was a bad decision. Kawhi and the Clippers coughing up a 3-1 lead as the favorite? While Leonard's gets lit up like a cigarette by Jamal Murray? Now that's a choke. An epic one at that seeing as how the Clippers were heavy favorites to win the Championship.

He still sat it out though. That's not a plus or all other factors being equal, is it? Kawhi has a choke, but he's still proven to be a clutch player. Compare their game 7 spreads. Kawhi wins that, too.

Oh my God how are you not getting this? Pippen is a great athlete too. And he has more offense skill than Giannis. But take note that while Giannis got to 30, I said Pippen would probably max out at about 25-26. I'm still saying Antekoumpo would score more. I'm not saying Pippen is a 30ppg scorer. Hell Kawhi got 27. So I'm not even saying he'd be on the level of Leonard. Hell I wouldn't want him to be. Because I believe his defense would be effected. Like Leonard's has been. Leonard is NOT the defender he was at one time. He won't play hurt, he take games off (load management), and he can't stay healthy. He lucked up in Toronto and won a Championship even though he didn't really improve the team much in wins, and the Raptors didn't really miss a beat when he left. They just weren't as lucky. Lol.

Yes, Pippen is a great athlete, and so are a lot of current NBA players, but they're not dominating anywhere near as Giannis. You brought up Giannis, I didn't.

The point is he doesn't have the skill set to achieve what you're saying he would achieve. Maxing out at 26 PPG? No way man. Kawhi maxed out at 27 with elite mid-range and three point shooting ability, yet Pippen is just shy of that at 25-26 PPG? Let's be real here.

Kawhi was an elite defender from 2013-2019. His defensive ability was greater than Pippen's. He did it in an era that doesn't allow defense. Put that into perspective for a moment.

Sure the Raptors didn't plummet without Kawhi, but neither did OKC without KD, the Sixers without Wilt, or Chicago without MJ. It doesn't say much.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-22-2021, 08:22 PM

Hardly emorional. I'd just like to see some consistency. Like this quote you made here
"
You said this bro. Now if I ask you to tell me your opinion on how Pippen fairs offensivly, I'm sure you'd say his offense would be minimallyrics effected. Even though you agree that its easier to score.Now why is that? What do Leonards offensive numbers look like if he played in the 90s?

Again, look at the post in this thread bro. What more do you want?

It's not illegal to body a player. It's illegal to put your hands on a player as to impede their progress or try to force them with your hands. You said it yourself. Pippen didn't even use his hands in that video. It's all footwork, anticipation, and effort. Are you actually paying attention to what you're saying?

Everything Ive brought up is basic common sense.

If that's hating, your issue isn't with me. Its with an opinion that isn't yours. Most of the poll thinks Kawhi was better, and probably for the same reasons I mentioned.

You're also quick to assume what I think. Lets not do that, 97. If you're looking for an exact number, I'm not gonna pretend I know. I mentioned Kawhi's defense being better, but by how much is impossible to say. Today, Pippen becomes more efficient and is clearly better in transition. He'd also shoot more threes. Again, an exact number is tough to say although scoring a few more points is definitely reasonable.

Even then, I don't think Pippen's offensive skillset compares to Kawhi. A better pure shooter who's more difficult to guard in the triple threat. Kawhi's game is clearly more polished.

It's not illegal to body a player. It's illegal to put your hands on a player as to impede their progress or try to force them with your hands. You said it yourself. Pippen didn't even use his hands in that video. It's all footwork, anticipation, and effort. Are you actually paying attention to what you're saying?

I'm not talking about hands. That's with handchecking, which is obviously illegal.

According to the rules, you cannot impede a players progress through contact. Be it screens, in isolation or picking up a player full court. That's exactly what freedom of movement is. What Pippen did in that video is a whistle in today's game. Period. Brush up on the rules some more.

HoopsNY

09-22-2021, 08:28 PM

Everything Ive brought up is basic common sense.

If that's hating, your issue isn't with me. Its with an opinion that isn't yours. Most of the poll thinks Kawhi was better, and probably for the same reasons I mentioned.

You're also quick to assume what I think. Lets not do that, 97. If you're looking for an exact number, I'm not gonna pretend I know. I mentioned Kawhi's defense being better, but by how much is impossible to say. Today, Pippen becomes more efficient and is clearly better in transition. He'd also shoot more threes. Again, an exact number is tough to say although scoring a few more points is definitely reasonable.

Even then, I don't think Pippen's offensive skillset compares to Kawhi. A better pure shooter who's more difficult to guard in the triple threat. Kawhi's game is clearly more polished.

I'm not talking about hands. That's with handchecking, which is obviously illegal.

According to the rules, you cannot impede a players progress through contact. Be it screens, in isolation or picking up a player full court. That's exactly what freedom of movement is. What Pippen did in that video is a whistle in today's game. Period. Brush up on the rules some more.

I rock wit ma dude Kuniva

NBAGOAT

09-22-2021, 08:42 PM

HoopsNY

09-22-2021, 09:15 PM

I can accept pippens a better defender but that still doesn’t make up the gap on offense. Kawhis even become a good playmaker for an offensive engine last few years with la. He may rank similarly in a yearly top player list to pippens peak in say 94 but there’s more stars right now because players have more longevity due to modern medicine and load management(tbf kawhi also benefits from this)

A lot is made about his choke from last year against Denver. This year they went to 7 games against Dallas.

Game 6 vs. DAL: 45/6/3/2 on 72%
Game 7 vs. DAL: 28/10/9/4 on 67%

Kawhi game 7s: 22/9/3/2/1 on 50% TS%
Pippen game 7s: 12/9/4/2/0 on 42% TS%

These two aren't close, despite the fact that some may think that they are.

tpols

09-22-2021, 09:26 PM

https://youtu.be/eOoWZNp0AlA

The problem is if they shoot like Scottie the team ain't going nowhere. I could show you similar defensive prowess from Shane Battier.

https://youtu.be/x4aDM5d27_w

Pippen simply can't do 30/8/4 on super elite efficiency and good defense to a title. Kawhis peak blows Pippen away.

97 bulls

09-22-2021, 11:55 PM

Everything Ive brought up is basic common sense.

If that's hating, your issue isn't with me. Its with an opinion that isn't yours. Most of the poll thinks Kawhi was better, and probably for the same reasons I mentioned.
Most of of the people that voted for Kawhi are known Jordan lovers/Pippen haters lol. I dont take this poll seriously.

You're also quick to assume what I think. Lets not do that, 97. If you're looking for an exact number, I'm not gonna pretend I know. I mentioned Kawhi's defense being better, but by how much is impossible to say. Today, Pippen becomes more efficient and is clearly better in transition. He'd also shoot more threes. Again, an exact number is tough to say although scoring a few more points is definitely reasonable.

I never asked for an exact number.. I asked for your opinion. A rough estimate. An educated guess. A ballpark figure.

Even then, I don't think Pippen's offensive skillset compares to Kawhi. A better pure shooter who's more difficult to guard in the triple threat. Kawhi's game is clearly more polished.

And as I said, I don't disagree that Leonard is a better scorer. I think it's not as far as you guys make it seem. And you got guys in here comparing statistics that are 25 years apart lol. In two totally different eras.

I'm not talking about hands. That's with handchecking, which is obviously illegal.

According to the rules, you cannot impede a players progress through contact. Be it screens, in isolation or picking up a player full court. That's exactly what freedom of movement is. What Pippen did in that video is a whistle in today's game. Period. Brush up on the rules some more.
Even of what you're saying is true (it isn't) it should stand to reason that Pippens offensive numbers increase as well. You can always beat a player to a spot. You can impede their progress with your hands.

Magic Is Magic

09-23-2021, 12:09 AM

Why is it I can't vote for this poll? Put me down for Kawhi. Pippen had a great and lengthy career but Kawhi's peak is too powerful to be overlooked. They're close in many regards and my formula has it Kawhi 29th, Pippen 34th. Still by a hair it seems Kawhi wins it

97 bulls

09-23-2021, 12:16 AM

You're right. I'm getting old. Still doesn't hold a candle to Kawhi, though.
Different era bro.

He still sat it out though. That's not a plus or all other factors being equal, is it? Kawhi has a choke, but he's still proven to be a clutch player. Compare their game 7 spreads. Kawhi wins that, too.
How many game 7s has Pippen been in? 4? Come on bro. You're better than this.

Yes, Pippen is a great athlete, and so are a lot of current NBA players, but they're not dominating anywhere near as Giannis. You brought up Giannis, I didn't.
Right. I did bring up Giannis. Why? Because you said Pippen doesnt have the offensive skills to max out at 25ppg. Giannis has NO OFFENSIVE SKILLS and yet managed 30ppg. Ben Simmons basically only scores in transition and he averaged 15ppg. Pippen would kill in this era of open court fast paced basketball.

the point is he doesn't have the skill set to achieve what you're saying he would achieve. Maxing out at 26 PPG? No way man. Kawhi maxed out at 27 with elite mid-range and three point shooting ability, yet Pippen is just shy of that at 25-26 PPG? Let's be real here.
I am being real. I'd like to see some consistency here. I do see what's so hard about this question.. take 94 Pippen and the 94 Bulls, give the. An extra 10 points to account for what an average team scores today. Who gets what?

Kawhi was an elite defender from 2013-2019. His defensive ability was greater than Pippen's. He did it in an era that doesn't allow defense. Put that into perspective for a moment.
Ok, let's. Leonard won the Finals MVP in 2014 mainly due to his great defense on Lebron James right? James averaged 28ppg in that series. And I believe he shot 52%. I guess that's what great defense is today.

Sure the Raptors didn't plummet without Kawhi, but neither did OKC without KD, the Sixers without Wilt, or Chicago without MJ. It doesn't say much.
The Thunder got Paul George to replace Durant. The Sixers got a very good center to replace Wilt. Most people find what Chicago did in 94 as impressive. The same needs to be said about the Raptors. Leonard has been one of the luckiest players the league has ever seen.

97 bulls

09-23-2021, 12:23 AM

https://youtu.be/dTOhBoGMoPQ

This is a video clip of Patrick Beverly defense on Devin Booker. Look at the last sequence. Beverly is clearly bodying up Booker the same way Pippen did Magic and Mark Jackson. Hell look at the thumbnail. Lol

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-23-2021, 12:45 AM

Most of of the people that voted for Kawhi are known Jordan lovers/Pippen haters lol. I dont take this poll seriously.

I never asked for an exact number.. I asked for your opinion. A rough estimate. An educated guess. A ballpark figure.

And as I said, I don't disagree that Leonard is a better scorer. I think it's not as far as you guys make it seem. And you got guys in here comparing statistics that are 25 years apart lol. In two totally different eras.

Even of what you're saying is true (it isn't) it should stand to reason that Pippens offensive numbers increase as well. You can always beat a player to a spot. You can impede their progress with your hands.

Or most of the people voting for Kawhi know basketball. :lol We're not talking careers here, my guy.

I gave you my opinion. Pippen's raw statline sees an uptick. Most stars from that era playing now get boosts in numbers. You mentioned comparing stats across 20 years, but the people who are doing that probably take possessions into account. There are a few impact stats that adjust per possessions. Feel free to look them up.

Far as the rules go, they're literally in the mandate. You can claim they're 'untrue' all you want, but the writing is there and in plain english. Highlight clips showing the exception doesn't make your point. There are player testimonials speaking on their inability to fight through screens and body up players. Again, the rules are what they are. We're not gonna twist them because you don't like what they entail.

All in all, Pippen's scoring goes up a bit in today's game...while Kawhi's defense gets better in the 90s. I believe Kawhi sees more of an advantage, but eras aside, he's still the better player.

I rock wit ma dude Kuniva

Appreciate it boss.

You've been posting here a year, and already you're one of the best posters. Salute.

RRR3

09-23-2021, 12:57 AM

Or most of the people voting for Kawhi know basketball. :lol We're not talking careers here, my guy.

I gave you my opinion. Pippen's raw statline sees an uptick. Most stars from that era playing now get boosts in numbers. You mentioned comparing stats across 20 years, but the people who are doing that probably take possessions into account. There are a few impact stats that adjust per possessions. Feel free to look them up.

Far as the rules go, they're literally in the mandate. You can claim they're 'untrue' all you want, but the writing is there and in plain english. Highlight clips showing the exception doesn't make your point. There are player testimonials speaking on their inability to fight through screens and body up players. Again, the rules are what they are. We're not gonna twist them because you don't like what they entail.

All in all, Pippen's scoring goes up a bit in today's game...while Kawhi's defense gets better in the 90s. I believe Kawhi sees more of an advantage, but eras aside, he's still the better player.

Appreciate it boss.

You've been posting here a year, and already you're one of the best posters. Salute.
Not to diss Hoops but you can be one of the best posters here simply by not trolling. Most of us who tried to talk basketball have given up and just troll now (myself included I see no point in not trolling people who just pollute the board and never get banned).

97 bulls

09-23-2021, 12:59 AM

Or most of the people voting for Kawhi know basketball. :lol We're not talking careers here, my guy.
Most of the people voting for Kawhi are the same people. Lol

I gave you my opinion. Pippen's raw statline sees an uptick. Most stars from that era playing now get boosts in numbers. You mentioned comparing stats across 20 years, but the people who are doing that probably take possessions into account. There are a few impact stats that adjust per possessions. Feel free to look them up.
I don't waste my time looking up need stats. All stats can be misleading.

Far as the rules go, they're literally in the mandate. You can claim they're 'untrue' all you want, but the writing is there and in plain english. Highlight clips showing the exception doesn't make your point. There are player testimonials speaking on their inability to fight through screens and body up players. Again, the rules are what they are. We're not gonna twist them because you don't like what they entail.
Bro. You said players today CANT body players on defense. I showed you video of players bodying players. Constantly. You are wrong. Show me this rule. Cuz it sounds like you're saying a defender isn't allowed to stay in front of his man.

HoopsNY

09-23-2021, 02:39 PM

How many game 7s has Pippen been in? 4? Come on bro. You're better than this.

What are you talking about? Both Pippen and Kawhi have been in the same amount of game 7s (6).

Right. I did bring up Giannis. Why? Because you said Pippen doesnt have the offensive skills to max out at 25ppg. Giannis has NO OFFENSIVE SKILLS and yet managed 30ppg. Ben Simmons basically only scores in transition and he averaged 15ppg. Pippen would kill in this era of open court fast paced basketball.

And again, Giannis has little skills, but has incredible athleticism and size. Pippen lacks that, so what does he have to rely on that would allow for him to score at a high and efficient rate? He would have to depend on SKILLS, which he doesn't have.

I am being real. I'd like to see some consistency here. I do see what's so hard about this question.. take 94 Pippen and the 94 Bulls, give the. An extra 10 points to account for what an average team scores today. Who gets what?

So, he peaks at 26 PPG, which is 4 more than his peak in '94. So, he accounts for 40% of the team's additional points? Hard to imagine that happening when he scored 20% of his team's total points. And that's assuming that he plays on a team with no 1st or 2nd options like he did on the '94 Bulls.

If he has co-stars then he definitely doesn't score 26, 25, or even 24. Mathematically, what you're saying doesn't add up.

Ok, let's. Leonard won the Finals MVP in 2014 mainly due to his great defense on Lebron James right? James averaged 28ppg in that series. And I believe he shot 52%. I guess that's what great defense is today.

Yea, but in games 3-4-5, when Kawhi guarded LeBron, he guarded him very well. I can't remember, but I think someone did a spread on those stats either on here or RealGM. He was actually effective against him.

Now let's see who Pippen shutdown. We'll wait. :lol

The Thunder got Paul George to replace Durant. The Sixers got a very good center to replace Wilt. Most people find what Chicago did in 94 as impressive. The same needs to be said about the Raptors. Leonard has been one of the luckiest players the league has ever seen.[/QUOTE]

97 bulls

09-23-2021, 03:36 PM

What are you talking about? Both Pippen and Kawhi have been in the same amount of game 7s (6).

Fair enough. I wouldn't make a determination on who's better based on 6 games.

And again, Giannis has little skills, but has incredible athleticism and size. Pippen lacks that, so what does he have to rely on that would allow for him to score at a high and efficient rate? He would have to depend on SKILLS, which he doesn't have.
So youre saying Pippen has the same amount or no offensive skill when compared to Antekoumpo? And lacks athleticsm? Wow. I'll say this much. I can see why you feel the way you do when it comes to Pippen. He has no offensive skills and isn't much of an athlete. How did he stay in the NBA so long much less make the Hall of Fame. SMH.

So, he peaks at 26 PPG, which is 4 more than his peak in '94. So, he accounts for 40% of the team's additional points? Hard to imagine that happening when he scored 20% of his team's total points. And that's assuming that he plays on a team with no 1st or 2nd options like he did on the '94 Bulls.
26 of 110 is still about 20% bro. You've basically made my case. Thanks

If he has co-stars then he definitely doesn't score 26, 25, or even 24. Mathematically, what you're saying doesn't add up.
I agree. But Pippen's career always seemed to be relegated to 94. I personally think his best season individually was 95. But because his scoring peak was 94. That's where we always end up.

Yea, but in games 3-4-5, when Kawhi guarded LeBron, he guarded him very well. I can't remember, but I think someone did a spread on those stats either on here or RealGM. He was actually effective against him.

Now let's see who Pippen shutdown. We'll wait. :lol
Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Glen Rice, Mark Jackson, John Stockton are some notable standouts.

Another thing on scoring and comparing numbers across eras. In 94, the Bulls averaged 98 ppg not 111. They were well below the average. They were actually 22nd that year. 22nd in 2019 puts them at 108ppg. Pippen averaging 22ppg on a team that avenged 98ppg is about 23%. 23% of 108 is about 25ppg. Which is what I said. But this is opening up pandoras box. Because Pippen also finished 8th in scoring in 94 at 22ppg. Kevin Durant finished 8th in ppg in 2019 with 26ppg. This is why I keep telling you guys to STOP COMPARING STATS ACROSS ERAS!!!!!!

Please respond to this Hoops and Kuniva.

HoopsNY

09-24-2021, 07:49 AM

Fair enough. I wouldn't make a determination on who's better based on 6 games.

But it's not just 6 games. It's game 7s, the finals, the playoffs, etc.

Kawhi is a career 20/10/2/2/1 player in the finals on 63% TS%. It has yielded him 2 FMVPs whereas Pippen has 0. Pippen is 19/8/6/2/1 on 50%.

Both have been impactful, but one has been more impactful and that just can't be denied.

So youre saying Pippen has the same amount or no offensive skill when compared to Antekoumpo? And lacks athleticsm? Wow. I'll say this much. I can see why you feel the way you do when it comes to Pippen. He has no offensive skills and isn't much of an athlete. How did he stay in the NBA so long much less make the Hall of Fame. SMH.

I never said he isn't much of an athlete. I merely stated he lacks the offensive skills which would make up for the gap between his athleticism and Giannis'.

26 of 110 is still about 20% bro. You've basically made my case. Thanks

20% of 110 is 22 PPG, which is what Pippen scored in 1994 and 1995.

I agree. But Pippen's career always seemed to be relegated to 94. I personally think his best season individually was 95. But because his scoring peak was 94. That's where we always end up.

1994 was clearly his best performance IMO, but no harm if you consider 1995 to be better due to losing Grant and still anchoring an elite defensive team.

Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Glen Rice, Mark Jackson, John Stockton are some notable standouts.

He didn't "shut down" any of these guys. He did a better job on Magic than MJ did, but hardly shut him down. Penny actually played very well against Pippen. We've been over this before. Rice's first appearance he averaged 19 PPG on 43% TS%, then in his second bout with Pippen he put up 23 on 52% TS%.

Mark Jackson you have a point, but who the heck is Mark Jackson in terms of elite scorers? And Stockton? That was a split effort between Pippen, Jordan, and Harper. He certainly didn't "shut him down" in 1997.

Another thing on scoring and comparing numbers across eras. In 94, the Bulls averaged 98 ppg not 111. They were well below the average. They were actually 22nd that year. 22nd in 2019 puts them at 108ppg. Pippen averaging 22ppg on a team that avenged 98ppg is about 23%. 23% of 108 is about 25ppg. Which is what I said. But this is opening up pandoras box. Because Pippen also finished 8th in scoring in 94 at 22ppg. Kevin Durant finished 8th in ppg in 2019 with 26ppg. This is why I keep telling you guys to STOP COMPARING STATS ACROSS ERAS!!!!!!

Please respond to this Hoops and Kuniva.

More like 22.4%, which rounds to 22%, which equals 24.1 PPG, but whatever. My point was that he averages around 23-24 PPG, so 23.5 PPG. You want to say 25-26. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge difference, but the difference does stand out.

We agree to disagree.

HoopsNY

09-24-2021, 07:52 AM

Most of of the people that voted for Kawhi are known Jordan lovers/Pippen haters lol. I dont take this poll seriously.

It's probably actually the opposite. Most of the people voting for Pippen are probably LeBron stans who just want to prop up Pippen to take a jab at MJ.

Not sure if we can see the results, but it's probably a ton of LeBron stans.

SaintzFury13

09-24-2021, 08:18 AM

It's probably actually the opposite. Most of the people voting for Pippen are probably LeBron stans who just want to prop up Pippen to take a jab at MJ.

Not sure if we can see the results, but it's probably a ton of LeBron stans.

Just click on the numbers in the poll results. And 97 Bulls is right but so are you. Not many people who are known for actually having a brain voted in this poll. If we just go off of the ones who did though, Kawhi still wins so it doesn't really matter.

Manny98

09-24-2021, 08:21 AM

Literally everyone that voted for Pippen outside of like 3 people is a known LeBron troll :oldlol:

HoopsNY

09-24-2021, 08:38 AM

Just click on the numbers in the poll results. And 97 Bulls is right but so are you. Not many people who are known for actually having a brain voted in this poll. If we just go off of the ones who did though, Kawhi still wins so it doesn't really matter.

Ahh thanks for that. I just checked and you're right. Having said that, I noticed you voted for Pippen. You're a pretty top tier poster, care to explain?

SaintzFury13

09-24-2021, 08:50 AM

Ahh thanks for that. I just checked and you're right. Having said that, I noticed you voted for Pippen. You're a pretty top tier poster, care to explain?

I'm literally the reason Manny98 made this thread. Because he took issue with me thinking Pippen was better, tried debating the matter, got his shit pushed in (he even thought Ty Lawson was a better player than Andre Iguodala) backed out and then made this thread as a result to try to prove a point.

My argument for Pippen over Kawhi in a short statement: while I acknowledge a gap exists between Kawhi and Pippen in regards to scoring, I don't think it's as large as people make it out to be due to the eras in which both men played in being drastically different and the fact that Pippen spent most of his prime as the second option on offense behind MJ. And when you factor in Pippen's playmaking, passing and leadership on the offensive end, it ends up making their effectiveness on that end much closer (but I'm still willing to admit Kawhi is superior on the offensive end). And on defense, I just don't see an argument for Kawhi>Pippen. I've always felt that Pippen was a better defender. Kawhi does have two DOPY awards, but I think his second one was undeserved, as Draymond Green was clearly the more effective defensive player that season and Kawhi wasn't even the Spurs primary defender that year (that was Danny Green). Kawhi is better on ball, but when that's the only real aspect of defense that you can definitively say he's superior in, I think at that point it's time to concede.

It's close, and it's not crazy at all to think Kawhi is superior. Hell, that's the popular consensus. But based on what I have seen and watching both men play, Pippen is superior.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 09:35 AM

But it's not just 6 games. It's game 7s, the finals, the playoffs, etc.
It's six games. Far too small of a sample size. Not sure if you follow football, but Timmy Smith holds the rushing record for Super Bowls. Nobody would take Timmy Smith as their go to tailback in a Superbowl.

Kawhi is a career 20/10/2/2/1 player in the finals on 63% TS%. It has yielded him 2 FMVPs whereas Pippen has 0. Pippen is 19/8/6/2/1 on 50%.

Both have been impactful, but one has been more impactful and that just can't be denied.
Leonard doesn't sniff a Finals MVP playing next to MJ. And Leonards Finals don't hold a candle to Pippen's 2 best. I say 2 because Leonard's played in 2. And you're comparing stats from two different eras, two different teams, and two different circumstances. Bradley Beal put up 30/5/5 numbers last year. You gonna tell me he's on the Level of MJ as a scorer? Those are MJ type numbers.

I never said he isn't much of an athlete. I merely stated he lacks the offensive skills which would make up for the gap between his athleticism and Giannis'.
"And again, Giannis has little skills, but has incredible athleticism and size. Pippen lacks that, so what does he have to rely on that would allow for him to score at a high and efficient rate? He would have to depend on SKILLS, which he doesn't have."
You Literally stated that Pippen doesn't have any skills. Which is extremely unreasonable. Pippen was a great athlete. Not Giannis Level. But great nonetheless. And Pippen is much more skilled than Giannis. And even still I said Pippen would probably max out af 25ppg which is below the 30 that Giannis has accomplished.

1994 was clearly his best performance IMO, but no harm if you consider 1995 to be better due to losing Grant and still anchoring an elite defensive team.
Not just that. Pippen was a one man show in 95. He led his team in every major category. That only been done 4 other times in the history of the NBA if I remember correctly. And he ran the offense.

He didn't "shut down" any of these guys. He did a better job on Magic than MJ did, but hardly shut him down. Penny actually played very well against Pippen. We've been over this before. Rice's first appearance he averaged 19 PPG on 43% TS%, then in his second bout with Pippen he put up 23 on 52% TS%.

Mark Jackson you have a point, but who the heck is Mark Jackson in terms of elite scorers? And Stockton? That was a split effort between Pippen, Jordan, and Harper. He certainly didn't "shut him down" in 1997.
When I say shut down, I mean he greatly effected a players overall performance. The player in question played well below his normal standard. You can never Literally shut a player down. Go back and look at Penny's numbers in 96. I'm picking out specific years. Jackson in 98, Magic in 91, Rice 98 if I remember correctly, Penny in 96. And if we're gonna discredit Pippen's defense on Stockton by saying it was a combination of Pip, Mj, and Harper, then were gonna have to apply the same logic to Leonard on Antekoumpo. Because the Raptors put up a wall that really effected him. Leonards never really done even a relatively good job on anyone. Based on your logic. Or I should say he has no real standout defensive efforts.

More like 22.4%, which rounds to 22%, which equals 24.1 PPG, but whatever. My point was that he averages around 23-24 PPG, so 23.5 PPG. You want to say 25-26. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge difference, but the difference does stand out.

We agree to disagree.
All I've been saying is you can't compare stats across eras. We're talking different rules, different styles, different teams etc. Even their roles. Phoenix said it best. Pippens job wasn't to go out and try to put up a bunch of points for himself. He was the Bulls PG or point forward. He ran the Bulls offense. Today's games looks like the 80s with more 3pt shooting. The 90s to mid 00s is a totally different league. The 96 Bulls led the league in points. They would be towards the bottom today. I remember Matt Goukas saying teams in the 90s just don't wanna get out and run anymore. If you're gonna compare stats across eras, at least apply context.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 09:41 AM

I'm literally the reason Manny98 made this thread. Because he took issue with me thinking Pippen was better, tried debating the matter, got his shit pushed in (he even thought Ty Lawson was a better player than Andre Iguodala) backed out and then made this thread as a result to try to prove a point.

My argument for Pippen over Kawhi in a short statement: while I acknowledge a gap exists between Kawhi and Pippen in regards to scoring, I don't think it's as large as people make it out to be due to the eras in which both men played in being drastically different and the fact that Pippen spent most of his prime as the second option on offense behind MJ. And when you factor in Pippen's playmaking, passing and leadership on the offensive end, it ends up making their effectiveness on that end much closer (but I'm still willing to admit Kawhi is superior on the offensive end). And on defense, I just don't see an argument for Kawhi>Pippen. I've always felt that Pippen was a better defender. Kawhi does have two DOPY awards, but I think his second one was undeserved, as Draymond Green was clearly the more effective defensive player that season and Kawhi wasn't even the Spurs primary defender that year (that was Danny Green). Kawhi is better on ball, but when that's the only real aspect of defense that you can definitively say he's superior in, I think at that point it's time to concede.

It's close, and it's not crazy at all to think Kawhi is superior. Hell, that's the popular consensus. But based on what I have seen and watching both men play, Pippen is superior.

I agree with everything you stated. Wouldn't change a thing.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 09:51 AM

Guys get too hung up on numbers. And pick and choose when they want to apply context to those numbers. I can dead this argument right now by saying Pippen has six championships to Leonards two. And seeing as how we compete to win, Pippen is better. But then people will want to apply context by saying he played with MJ, or the league was watered down, or this team was old, or that team was hurt. But they never apply that logic to their own assessments. Or they say, well Robert Horry has 7 titles so he must be better than Pippen too. Fine. He's better than Pippen AND LEONARD. All I would like to see is a little consistency.

Phoenix

09-24-2021, 09:53 AM

Scottie should have had a DPOY award at some point in the mid 90s. It's not like that distinction was reserved only for centers because Payton got the award in 96. Rodman got the reward in 90 and 91.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 09:58 AM

Scottie should have had a DPOY award at some point in the mid 90s. It's not like that distinction was reserved only for centers because Payton got the award in 96. Rodman got the reward in 90 and 91.

He should've won in 95. And probably 96. I've always felt he didn't win in 96 because of injury and more importantly, the League was hoping for a match-up of MJ vs the DPOY in Payton. It's just more theater. I don't know why he didn't win in 95. His team had better defensive results, Mutombo led the league in block Pippen led the league in steals. I just don't get it.

BigShotBob

09-24-2021, 10:06 AM

Kawhi beat Jimmy Butler, Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons, and Tobias Harris without a true second option and averaged 30.

Pippen lost to Patrick Ewing and John Starks.

There is no world where Pippen is superior to Kawhi to anyone other than the two-three hyper Pippen stans on here. The scoring gap between Pippen and Kawhi is far beyond negligible regardless of the era because it's not like Pippen was averaging 25+ because he never did. He can't create his own shot like Kawhi, and there were times where he couldn't rebound like Kawhi and their playmaking skills are pretty much a wash against one another.

This hypothetical scoring Pippen doesn't exist. He's a career 16 ppg scorer that peaked at 22 ppg and in his prime averaged 15-17 FGA. Very similar to Kawhi (16-19 and topped out at 20) and that's while he had to share the ball with Paul George.

This is the only website where a thread like this wouldn't be derailed, laughed at, or outright deleted.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 10:10 AM

Phoenix

09-24-2021, 10:20 AM

He should've won in 95. And probably 96. I've always felt he didn't win in 96 because of injury and more importantly, the League was hoping for a match-up of MJ vs the DPOY in Payton. It's just more theater. I don't know why he didn't win in 95. His team had better defensive results, Mutombo led the league in block Pippen led the league in steals. I just don't get it.

I'd also argue( in my subjective opinion of course) that it's much harder to anchor a defense from the perimeter, especially in an era where the bigs actually played in and around the paint and offense was played inside-out. Teams looked to score moreso from the post and midrange and this heightened the importance of the paint-roaming bigman( subsequently moving offense to the perimeter has neutered the dominant defensive big in today's era, comparatively speaking).

BigShotBob

09-24-2021, 10:22 AM

This coming from a known Pippen hater.

Leonard had Lowery, Gasol, Siakem, and Ibaka. And he joined a team that was already considered one of the best team in the league. Stop it.

Not even.

None of those are better than Butler, Simmons, Tobias Harris, or Embiid.

Name a time Pippen averaged more than 23 ppg for a series when MJ retired (hint he's only done it once). For the record Reggie Miller averaged more than 23 ppg in 12 different playoff series and he had a much more balanced offensive scheme.

But hey at least Pippen managed to outplay Gerald Wilkens head to head in the first round.

By the way, Pippens second and third option in 1994 outscored Patrick Ewing's second and third option in the second round. What happened?

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 10:39 AM

Not even.

None of those are better than Butler, Simmons, Tobias Harris, or Embiid.
But they were a better team. Leonard joined the best team in the East the previous year. And not only that, but the Raptors were much better than the Sixers.

Name a time Pippen averaged more than 23 ppg for a series when MJ retired (hint he's only done it once). For the record Reggie Miller averaged more than 23 ppg in 12 different playoff series and he had a much more balanced offensive scheme.
Prime Pippen has of played 2 series without MJ. And one was vs the best defense in the league.. And one of the best defensive teams ever in the Knicks. Again with these silly arguments. And Pippen was the team's facilitator. His job was to go out and score and run the offense.

By the way, Pippens second and third option in 1994 outscored Patrick Ewing's second and third option in the second round. What happened?
Lol yeah, because of Pippen. Grant and Armstrong while two very good players, can't get score on their own. Scottie Pippen is the only player that was expected to run the offense, score 30ppg, rebound at a high level, dish out 10 assists, shut down his man, and achor his team's defense. It's crazy.

SaintzFury13

09-24-2021, 11:00 AM

Kawhi beat Jimmy Butler, Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons, and Tobias Harris without a true second option and averaged 30.

Okay, no.

Listen, I have praised Kawhi Leonard constantly for his 2019 run with the Raptors. It's the third best championship run of the 2010s, behind Dirk's run with Dallas in 2011 and LeBron's run with Cleveland in 2016. But shit like this? It needs to stop.

The 76ers were a stacked team on paper but they were very dysfunctional. They had no real offensive game plan and relied on playing through their stars rather than have something cohesive. Jimmy Butler usually just went out there and did whatever he wanted on offense. Tobias was the third option on offense and he averaged a measly 14 PPG. 14 PPG. Imagine if Kevin Love put up those kinds of numbers on a consistent basis during his time as the Cavaliers third option on offense. He would have been castrated by the Cleveland fan base. Hell, there were people demanding he be traded despite putting up far better numbers than that. Their bench unit was non existent. Were they a good team? Sure. But they weren't anywhere close to being a truly elite team. If it wasn't for Butler, they probably wouldn't have even gotten as far in the playoffs as they did. Keep in mind Ben Simmons wasn't an elite defensive player at this point yet either.

Kawhi Leonard was an offensive unit in of himself that series and for that he deserves a ton of praise. But defensively his teammates did most of the dirty work that series. Marc Gasol was the one who constantly gave Joel Embiid fits. Danny Green was the one tasked with guarding Jimmy Butler in that series. Tobias was checked by Siakam. So who did Kawhi guard? Ben Simmons. Yeah, you read that right. The guy who couldn't even shoot was the one Kawhi was tasked with guarding in that series. Do you ever, in your life, imagine Scottie Pippen doing something like that? Where he's tasked with guarding arguably the biggest offensive liability the opposing team had at the time?

And I'm sorry, WHAT?! Kawhi beat them with NO TRUE SECOND OPTION? So we're just going to sit here and act like Pascal Siakam doesn't exist? The guy who averaged 20 PPG that series? Buddy, those are pretty damn good numbers for your second option on offense. Five of the seven games in that series, he scored 20 points or more. Any superstar caliber player would love to have a second option like that on offense. And you're saying he had no true second option. What a load of shite.

Honestly, I don't even know why people continue to bring up that series against the 76ers. Beating the Bucks was honestly far more impressive, and that's due in part to what he was able to do against Giannis (even though that was more of a team effort than anything else). Actually, even that wasn't more impressive, because that series was on its way to being an easy win for the Bucks until VanVleet got inserted into the starting line up and that swung the series in Toronto's favor. Y'all still want to pretend that the Raptors weren't a loaded team?

Pippen lost to Patrick Ewing and John Starks.

Yeah, in seven games to the team that went to the NBA Finals. I don't see how that's a bad thing. If VanVleet didn't get inserted into the starting line up, Kawhi and his team would have lost to Giannis and Eric Bledsoe. So what's your point?

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 12:32 PM

Okay, no.

Listen, I have praised Kawhi Leonard constantly for his 2019 run with the Raptors. It's the third best championship run of the 2010s, behind Dirk's run with Dallas in 2011 and LeBron's run with Cleveland in 2016. But shit like this? It needs to stop.

The 76ers were a stacked team on paper but they were very dysfunctional. They had no real offensive game plan and relied on playing through their stars rather than have something cohesive. Jimmy Butler usually just went out there and did whatever he wanted on offense. Tobias was the third option on offense and he averaged a measly 14 PPG. 14 PPG. Imagine if Kevin Love put up those kinds of numbers on a consistent basis during his time as the Cavaliers third option on offense. He would have been castrated by the Cleveland fan base. Hell, there were people demanding he be traded despite putting up far better numbers than that. Their bench unit was non existent. Were they a good team? Sure. But they weren't anywhere close to being a truly elite team. If it wasn't for Butler, they probably wouldn't have even gotten as far in the playoffs as they did. Keep in mind Ben Simmons wasn't an elite defensive player at this point yet either.

Kawhi Leonard was an offensive unit in of himself that series and for that he deserves a ton of praise. But defensively his teammates did most of the dirty work that series. Marc Gasol was the one who constantly gave Joel Embiid fits. Danny Green was the one tasked with guarding Jimmy Butler in that series. Tobias was checked by Siakam. So who did Kawhi guard? Ben Simmons. Yeah, you read that right. The guy who couldn't even shoot was the one Kawhi was tasked with guarding in that series. Do you ever, in your life, imagine Scottie Pippen doing something like that? Where he's tasked with guarding arguably the biggest offensive liability the opposing team had at the time?

And I'm sorry, WHAT?! Kawhi beat them with NO TRUE SECOND OPTION? So we're just going to sit here and act like Pascal Siakam doesn't exist? The guy who averaged 20 PPG that series? Buddy, those are pretty damn good numbers for your second option on offense. Five of the seven games in that series, he scored 20 points or more. Any superstar caliber player would love to have a second option like that on offense. And you're saying he had no true second option. What a load of shite.

Honestly, I don't even know why people continue to bring up that series against the 76ers. Beating the Bucks was honestly far more impressive, and that's due in part to what he was able to do against Giannis (even though that was more of a team effort than anything else). Actually, even that wasn't more impressive, because that series was on its way to being an easy win for the Bucks until VanVleet got inserted into the starting line up and that swung the series in Toronto's favor. Y'all still want to pretend that the Raptors weren't a loaded team?

Yeah, in seven games to the team that went to the NBA Finals. I don't see how that's a bad thing. If VanVleet didn't get inserted into the starting line up, Kawhi and his team would have lost to Giannis and Eric Bledsoe. So what's your point?

In response to the bold. This is what happens when context is applied. Leonard has never been tasked with doing what Pippen was asked to do. NEVER. Imagine if Phil Jackson told Pippen to only concentrate on being the defensive stopper and thus not have to focus as much on scoring because they had 2 or 3 others who could do that like the Spurs had.

We saw what happens when Leonard is given the task of being the defensive stopper and best scorer against Denver when Jamal Murray torched him in 2020. It's very difficult to do both at a high level. That's why most great 2 way players hover in the low 20s high teens when it comes to scoring. It takes a lot out of you.

SaintzFury13

09-24-2021, 02:34 PM

In response to the bold. This is what happens when context is applied. Leonard has never been tasked with doing what Pippen was asked to do. NEVER. Imagine if Phil Jackson told Pippen to only concentrate on being the defensive stopper and thus not have to focus as much on scoring because they had 2 or 3 others who could do that like the Spurs had.

We saw what happens when Leonard is given the task of being the defensive stopper and best scorer against Denver when Jamal Murray torched him in 2020. It's very difficult to do both at a high level. That's why most great 2 way players hover in the low 20s high teens when it comes to scoring. It takes a lot out of you.

I'm actually looking through the pages now (because I didn't really bother to before since I knew this was an agenda driven thread made by an idiot) and I noticed these two posts that stood out to me and that I feel the need to address.

2019 Kawhi was getting recognition over 2019 LeBron, due to his regular season and playoff/finals performances. It's well known that many across the media and fanbase were putting Kawhi as the best player in the game.

In addition, there were many who thought the Spurs had a legit chance to beat KD's superteam in 2017 had he not gotten injured. IIRC, SA was up by like 25 prior to Kawhi getting hurt in game 1.

Kawhi being better than LeBron in 2019 after the finals was not a popular consensus. Many people were pointing out how injury battered Golden State was and that the Raptors were lucky to have won the title that year because of it. It's for this very reason that as amazing as Kawhi's 2019 run with the Raptors was, it was more so a demonstration of just how close the Raptors were to being a championship caliber team with the right pieces. It by no means proved that Kawhi could lead any team to a title. Does he deserve credit for being the first option on a title winner? Absolutely. But you can't sit here and tell me that this wasn't an incredibly well built roster surrounding Kawhi. You had all of your bases covered from top to bottom. A stacked starting unit with multiple elite two way players who could impact the floor in a variety of ways. A very good bench team with players capable of switching to the starting unit if needed (that literally saved the Raptors in the series against the Bucks). A great coach who understands when changes are needed and knows how to make the most out of his players. A guy like Paul George would have loved to have had a team like this. Hell, LeBron would have been able to make a legitimate dynasty out of a team like this if he had one similar to it in Cleveland (and for the sake of fairness, so would Kawhi).

"Nearly lost". That was a team with Harris-Embiid-Simmons-Redick-Butler, but I'm "overhyping"? Kawhi put up 35/10/4/1 on 63% TS%, including the game winner in game 7. In addition, he switched onto Embiid and was shutting him down.

Another example of someone making way too big of a deal out of beating that 76ers team. Again, they were a very dysfunctional group and never really clicked as a team. They had no real offensive game plan and weren't all that great of a defensive team either. Their second scoring option in the series (Embiid) was outscored by Toronto's second option (Siakam). Harris averaged 14 PPG that series. That's worse than what Kevin Love averaged in his 2017 finals outing against the Warriors. Bosh averaged lower in Miami at times, including twice in two finals series, but at least he made up for it with elite defense. Jimmy Butler had to carry the 76ers offense in that series. The fact that the Raptors almost lost to a team like that is in fact pretty bad.

And I'm sorry, what? Kawhi switched onto Embiid and shut him down? I'm 90% certain you just made that part up, because I'm pretty sure that never happened. Kawhi was tasked with roaming on defense. He was playing the LeBron James defense role in 2009 so he could focus more on the offensive end of the floor. Maybe Kawhi did in fact switch onto Embiid at one point and maybe he did shut him down, but until you tell me when and where it happened in that series I am calling major bullshit.

But you want to know who did shut Embiid down? Marc Gasol, who was arguably Embiid's kryptonite. This was a man Embiid simply could never get anything going against because Gasol had the perfect length, skillset, and footwork to be able to severely limit Embiid on the offensive end of the court. Remember that time Embiid scored 0 points for an entire game in the regular season? Yeah, that actually happened before in case you forgot. And if you did in fact forget, wanna know who was guarding him that game? Marc Gasol, because that man has made a living on making Embiid his bitch.

Embiid's averages for that series with Gasol guarding him for most of it? 17.6 PPG on 36% shooting from the field.

That was Philly's second option on offense.

You guys still want to claim Kawhi didn't have a stacked team in Toronto?

Show us where Pippen was:

- Shutting down elite players
- Hitting decisive game winners (this is the funniest one of all)
- Dominating on the offensive end

....at any rate as close to Kawhi did in 2019. We'll wait.

Show us a team with the same type of supporting cast that Pippen had in his one and a half year without Jordan where Kawhi is able to lead them as well as he did and I'll concede to this point. Otherwise it's nonsense.

Furthermore, Pippen had his chance to show up offensively in 1995 as a 1st option before MJ returned. Fact is, he was nowhere near the shooter/scorer that Kawhi is.

No one is trying to claim Pippen was superior offensively. But to act like he didn't have other great attributes outside of scoring is a disservice to what he brought to the table at that end. I have no problem believing that Pippen would have been able to lead the team Kawhi had in 2019 to an NBA Champoinship in a season not filled with super teams (because the only super team remaining being injured is literally the only reason Kawhi even won in 2019 to begin with). I seriously doubt Kawhi would have been able to carry the 94 Bulls or even the 95 team for that matter to the same success that Pippen did.

HoopsNY

09-24-2021, 08:33 PM

I'm literally the reason Manny98 made this thread. Because he took issue with me thinking Pippen was better, tried debating the matter, got his shit pushed in (he even thought Ty Lawson was a better player than Andre Iguodala) backed out and then made this thread as a result to try to prove a point.

My argument for Pippen over Kawhi in a short statement: while I acknowledge a gap exists between Kawhi and Pippen in regards to scoring, I don't think it's as large as people make it out to be due to the eras in which both men played in being drastically different and the fact that Pippen spent most of his prime as the second option on offense behind MJ. And when you factor in Pippen's playmaking, passing and leadership on the offensive end, it ends up making their effectiveness on that end much closer (but I'm still willing to admit Kawhi is superior on the offensive end). And on defense, I just don't see an argument for Kawhi>Pippen. I've always felt that Pippen was a better defender. Kawhi does have two DOPY awards, but I think his second one was undeserved, as Draymond Green was clearly the more effective defensive player that season and Kawhi wasn't even the Spurs primary defender that year (that was Danny Green). Kawhi is better on ball, but when that's the only real aspect of defense that you can definitively say he's superior in, I think at that point it's time to concede.

I can reason with your assessment, but I generally think that Kawhi circa 2014-2019 was one of the most dominant defensive players, ever. He did what he did in a perimeter friendly era, without hand checking. That has to account for something.

My problem with the whole "Pippen was the 2nd option" is that we saw Pippen peak at 21 PPG with MJ and just 22 PPG without him. Clearly, MJ wasn't holding Pippen back from scoring.

HoopsNY

09-24-2021, 08:39 PM

It's six games. Far too small of a sample size. Not sure if you follow football, but Timmy Smith holds the rushing record for Super Bowls. Nobody would take Timmy Smith as their go to tailback in a Superbowl.

Apples to oranges. And it's not just six game 7s. It's that in addition to a myriad of other situations.

Leonard doesn't sniff a Finals MVP playing next to MJ. And Leonards Finals don't hold a candle to Pippen's 2 best. I say 2 because Leonard's played in 2. And you're comparing stats from two different eras, two different teams, and two different circumstances. Bradley Beal put up 30/5/5 numbers last year. You gonna tell me he's on the Level of MJ as a scorer? Those are MJ type numbers.

While it is true that Kawhi doesn't win a FMVP next to MJ, Pippen had a chance to show how great he was without MJ and simply didn't. Kawhi did without a great second option.

The comparison to Beal isn't fair. We're comparing one highly skilled offensive player to one who wasn't.

"And again, Giannis has little skills, but has incredible athleticism and size. Pippen lacks that, so what does he have to rely on that would allow for him to score at a high and efficient rate? He would have to depend on SKILLS, which he doesn't have."
You Literally stated that Pippen doesn't have any skills. Which is extremely unreasonable. Pippen was a great athlete. Not Giannis Level. But great nonetheless. And Pippen is much more skilled than Giannis. And even still I said Pippen would probably max out af 25ppg which is below the 30 that Giannis has accomplished.

When I say he didn't have skills, I didn't mean he was completely obsolete. After all, I had also mentioned Pippen's ability in transition.

When I say shut down, I mean he greatly effected a players overall performance. The player in question played well below his normal standard. You can never Literally shut a player down. Go back and look at Penny's numbers in 96. I'm picking out specific years. Jackson in 98, Magic in 91, Rice 98 if I remember correctly, Penny in 96. And if we're gonna discredit Pippen's defense on Stockton by saying it was a combination of Pip, Mj, and Harper, then were gonna have to apply the same logic to Leonard on Antekoumpo. Because the Raptors put up a wall that really effected him. Leonards never really done even a relatively good job on anyone. Based on your logic. Or I should say he has no real standout defensive efforts.

Prime Giannis now compares to 1998 Stockton, who was, what, 34 at the time?

HoopsNY

09-24-2021, 08:45 PM

But they were a better team. Leonard joined the best team in the East the previous year. And not only that, but the Raptors were much better than the Sixers.

That's like saying Pippen "joined" the '98 Bulls who were on a 56 win pace without him, winning something like 14 of their last 18 games prior to his return. The point is that Kawhi led his team past a stacked Sixers team.

Lol yeah, because of Pippen. Grant and Armstrong while two very good players, can't get score on their own. Scottie Pippen is the only player that was expected to run the offense, score 30ppg, rebound at a high level, dish out 10 assists, shut down his man, and achor his team's defense. It's crazy.

Says who? Pippen missed 10 games in 1994. During that stretch:

Grant: 16/12/3/1/2 on 53%
Armstrong: 19/5/3/2 on 46/45/91 splits

Pippen missed 3 games in the 1995 season; Armstrong put up 18/2/3/2 on 45/44/93 splits. Clearly they were able to do something right in the absence of Pippen.

SaintzFury13

09-24-2021, 09:31 PM

I can reason with your assessment, but I generally think that Kawhi circa 2014-2019 was one of the most dominant defensive players, ever. He did what he did in a perimeter friendly era, without hand checking. That has to account for something.

How? In what way? By 2016 he was already passing off main defender duties to Danny Green. By 2017 he was already showing signs of regressing at that end. By 2019 he fully transitioned into a passive role on defense, only really locking in at that end of the floor when he needed to. In Toronto he was constantly roaming on defense. In the playoffs, he barely made a credible impact on that end of the floor on a consistent basis, mostly because he didn't need to. Toronto was stacked from top to bottom defensively, there were few weaknesses that they had at that end. This wasn't a case of Toronto starting and ending with Kawhi's defense. They were an elite defensive team with or without him.

And frankly, to sit here and call Kawhi from 2014-2019 one of the most dominant defensive players ever is a massive overrating of what he did at that end of the floor. One of the best defensive players in the league? Sure. But Draymond's defense from 2015 on has been more dominant. LeBron from 2009 to 2014 was more dominant. Kawhi at his peak defensively was incredible, but it was very short lived. By 2017 he wasn't anything close to what he was in 2015 (which is when you can argue he was at his peak as a defender).

My problem with the whole "Pippen was the 2nd option" is that we saw Pippen peak at 21 PPG with MJ and just 22 PPG without him. Clearly, MJ wasn't holding Pippen back from scoring.

That's one whole season of Pippen playing without MJ. That's a very small sample size to go off of in terms of determining what Pippen was capable of offensively. Not to mention, when he became the number one guy, that was just another load he had to take on. This was a guy who had to run the offense AND be the primary defender on the team. And now he has to be the number one option on offense? In an era where playing defense is a much more physical endeavor? I'm just not buying that 22 PPG was Pippen's peak, and odds are we would have seen a higher scoring average if he had spent his entire prime being the number one option. It simply did not work out that way.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 09:54 PM

Apples to oranges. And it's not just six game 7s. It's that in addition to a myriad of other situations.

It's the same thing. You're basing your argument on 12 games. Pippen and Leonard have played a combination of well over a 1000 games.

While it is true that Kawhi doesn't win a FMVP next to MJ, Pippen had a chance to show how great he was without MJ and simply didn't. Kawhi did without a great second option.
I see the type of debater you are. You have the mindset that conceding anything is conceding everything. This is a prime example. Most people feel Pippen and the Bulls overachieved. And feel that what he did in 94 and 95 was great. Most people didn't even see the Bulls making the playoffs much less taking the eventual EC Champs to 7 hard fought games. And win 55 games in the regular season.

The comparison to Beal isn't fair. We're comparing one highly skilled offensive player to one who wasn't.
Sure it is. Im using your logic of stats rule everything.

When I say he didn't have skills, I didn't mean he was completely obsolete. After all, I had also mentioned Pippen's ability in transition.
Pippen was a great player bro. I think you're really selling his abilities short. He was a very good post player, a very good slasher, a streaky jumpshooter, an excellent ball handler, and a mediocre to solid 3pt shooter for his era. We already crunched the numbers bro. Leonard and Pippen are not as far off as your making it seem when it comes to scoring.

Prime Giannis now compares to 1998 Stockton, who was, what, 34 at the time?Lol. Good point. Pippens effectiveness on Stockton wasnt so much scoring, it was stifling Stocktons ability to run the Jazz offense.

97 bulls

09-24-2021, 10:01 PM

That's like saying Pippen "joined" the '98 Bulls who were on a 56 win pace without him, winning something like 14 of their last 18 games prior to his return. The point is that Kawhi led his team past a stacked Sixers team.
Well, even then, the Bulls won 69 games bro. Without Pippen, there's a 13 game difference there. The Raptors won more games without Leonard. They won the Championship true, but I personally think it was a fluke.

Says who? Pippen missed 10 games in 1994. During that stretch:

Grant: 16/12/3/1/2 on 53%
Armstrong: 19/5/3/2 on 46/45/91 splits

Pippen missed 3 games in the 1995 season; Armstrong put up 18/2/3/2 on 45/44/93 splits. Clearly they were able to do something right in the absence of Pippen.

Lol again, with the small sample size. Armstrong ad Grant were not players that created their own shot. They just weren't. I mean by default, they're gonna score more. Duh. But the Bulls were 4-6 in those 10 games.

SaintzFury13

09-24-2021, 11:04 PM

ClipperRevival

09-25-2021, 07:27 PM

How desperate must the Bron fans be when they have to compare these two? Like really?

https://c.tenor.com/daFkWflrPUwAAAAC/michael-jordan-stop-it.gif

HoopsNY

09-26-2021, 09:48 PM

How? In what way? By 2016 he was already passing off main defender duties to Danny Green. By 2017 he was already showing signs of regressing at that end. By 2019 he fully transitioned into a passive role on defense, only really locking in at that end of the floor when he needed to. In Toronto he was constantly roaming on defense. In the playoffs, he barely made a credible impact on that end of the floor on a consistent basis, mostly because he didn't need to. Toronto was stacked from top to bottom defensively, there were few weaknesses that they had at that end. This wasn't a case of Toronto starting and ending with Kawhi's defense. They were an elite defensive team with or without him.

We must have watched different versions of Kawhi. I still remember him being a dominant defensive player those years. In 2019, he shut down Giannis when switched onto him in the ECF.

Yes those teams (Toronto and San Antonio), were dominant defensively, but Kawhi was a part of that. And his record proves it:

2016: DPOY, All-Defensive 1st Team
2017: All-Defensive 1st Team, (3rd in DPOY voting)
2019: All-Defensive 2nd Team (6th in DPOY voting)

2016 Spurs: 1st in DRTG
2017 Spurs: 1st in DRTG

2016: 2nd in DWS, 2nd in DBPM
2017: 2nd in DWS, 8th in DBPM

Kawhi doesn't rank as high in 2019 due to load management, not merely because he was incapable. And I stand by what I say, 2013-2019 Kawhi is one of the best defensive players, ever. You don't get to exclude the earlier part of his years because he load managed in 2019 and missed almost all of 2018. It doesn't work that way.

And frankly, to sit here and call Kawhi from 2014-2019 one of the most dominant defensive players ever is a massive overrating of what he did at that end of the floor. One of the best defensive players in the league? Sure. But Draymond's defense from 2015 on has been more dominant. LeBron from 2009 to 2014 was more dominant. Kawhi at his peak defensively was incredible, but it was very short lived. By 2017 he wasn't anything close to what he was in 2015 (which is when you can argue he was at his peak as a defender).

See the above

That's one whole season of Pippen playing without MJ. That's a very small sample size to go off of in terms of determining what Pippen was capable of offensively. Not to mention, when he became the number one guy, that was just another load he had to take on. This was a guy who had to run the offense AND be the primary defender on the team. And now he has to be the number one option on offense? In an era where playing defense is a much more physical endeavor? I'm just not buying that 22 PPG was Pippen's peak, and odds are we would have seen a higher scoring average if he had spent his entire prime being the number one option. It simply did not work out that way.

It wasn't just one whole season. It was also 1995. He averaged the same without MJ. Again, clearly MJ wasn't holding him back. With the absence of Grant AND Mj, his scoring was even more needed.

Maybe - just maybe - Pippen was not capable of elite scoring? And that adds up given his skill level.

Here's food for thought. The Bulls were an elite defensive team in 1995 before MJ returned, that wasn't just Pippen. So maybe he should have assumed more of a role where scoring was concerned? Or maybe he just wasn't capable.

HoopsNY

09-26-2021, 09:54 PM

It's the same thing. You're basing your argument on 12 games. Pippen and Leonard have played a combination of well over a 1000 games.

Yea, and Kawhi wins across the board. Regular season, playoffs, game 7s, conference finals, finals. How much do you want before you can concede, because that's a heck of a lot of samples I'm providing whereas you've provided none.

I see the type of debater you are. You have the mindset that conceding anything is conceding everything. This is a prime example. Most people feel Pippen and the Bulls overachieved. And feel that what he did in 94 and 95 was great. Most people didn't even see the Bulls making the playoffs much less taking the eventual EC Champs to 7 hard fought games. And win 55 games in the regular season.

Not at all, I've conceded to where Kawhi is better and where Pippen was better.

Sure it is. Im using your logic of stats rule everything.

I haven't argued just stats, though.

Pippen was a great player bro. I think you're really selling his abilities short. He was a very good post player, a very good slasher, a streaky jumpshooter, an excellent ball handler, and a mediocre to solid 3pt shooter for his era. We already crunched the numbers bro. Leonard and Pippen are not as far off as your making it seem when it comes to scoring.

Very good post player? I disagree. Slasher - agreed. Streaky shooter? Yes, but that doesn't override the fact that Kawhi is the far better shooter. We've crunched the numbers and they are in Kawhi's favor, significantly. Or shall we go through the finals, conference finals, and game 7s again?

Lol. Good point. Pippens effectiveness on Stockton wasnt so much scoring, it was stifling Stocktons ability to run the Jazz offense.

So basically, fat Mark Jackson and and older John Stockton...those guys, by your examples, equate to prime Giannis.

HoopsNY

09-26-2021, 10:05 PM

Kawhi being better than LeBron in 2019 after the finals was not a popular consensus. Many people were pointing out how injury battered Golden State was and that the Raptors were lucky to have won the title that year because of it. It's for this very reason that as amazing as Kawhi's 2019 run with the Raptors was, it was more so a demonstration of just how close the Raptors were to being a championship caliber team with the right pieces. It by no means proved that Kawhi could lead any team to a title. Does he deserve credit for being the first option on a title winner? Absolutely. But you can't sit here and tell me that this wasn't an incredibly well built roster surrounding Kawhi. You had all of your bases covered from top to bottom. A stacked starting unit with multiple elite two way players who could impact the floor in a variety of ways. A very good bench team with players capable of switching to the starting unit if needed (that literally saved the Raptors in the series against the Bucks). A great coach who understands when changes are needed and knows how to make the most out of his players. A guy like Paul George would have loved to have had a team like this. Hell, LeBron would have been able to make a legitimate dynasty out of a team like this if he had one similar to it in Cleveland (and for the sake of fairness, so would Kawhi).

I love reading your posts, but for the love of God, cut them into more paragraphs. *smile*

I never said it was a consensus, but it was widely spoken of.

And who is really doing the overrating here. You're acting as if the Bulls - coming off of a championship - with peak Grant (All-Star and All-Defensive 2nd Team), and Armstrong (All-Star), along with Pippen were slouches.

And how good were the 2017 Spurs? I'll give you Green because he was solid defensively, but Kawhi's 2nd option gave him 17 PPG. Parker was 34, Ginobili 39, and Gasol 36. Yet somehow this team wasn't led by Kawhi to 61 wins? C'mon man.

Another example of someone making way too big of a deal out of beating that 76ers team. Again, they were a very dysfunctional group and never really clicked as a team. They had no real offensive game plan and weren't all that great of a defensive team either. Their second scoring option in the series (Embiid) was outscored by Toronto's second option (Siakam). Harris averaged 14 PPG that series. That's worse than what Kevin Love averaged in his 2017 finals outing against the Warriors. Bosh averaged lower in Miami at times, including twice in two finals series, but at least he made up for it with elite defense. Jimmy Butler had to carry the 76ers offense in that series. The fact that the Raptors almost lost to a team like that is in fact pretty bad.

And I'm sorry, what? Kawhi switched onto Embiid and shut him down? I'm 90% certain you just made that part up, because I'm pretty sure that never happened. Kawhi was tasked with roaming on defense. He was playing the LeBron James defense role in 2009 so he could focus more on the offensive end of the floor. Maybe Kawhi did in fact switch onto Embiid at one point and maybe he did shut him down, but until you tell me when and where it happened in that series I am calling major bullshit.

No you're right, but I do recall Kawhi on help defense and switching a few times on Embiid, but he was tasked with Butler and Harris for the series. Butler got shut down, or are we going to pretend that that didn't happen?

But you want to know who did shut Embiid down? Marc Gasol, who was arguably Embiid's kryptonite. This was a man Embiid simply could never get anything going against because Gasol had the perfect length, skillset, and footwork to be able to severely limit Embiid on the offensive end of the court. Remember that time Embiid scored 0 points for an entire game in the regular season? Yeah, that actually happened before in case you forgot. And if you did in fact forget, wanna know who was guarding him that game? Marc Gasol, because that man has made a living on making Embiid his bitch.

Agreed, it still doesn't take away from Kawhi's effective defensive efforts against someone like Butler, a guy who was a legitimate 21-22 PPG threat and got demolished in game 7 by Kawhi on both ends. The same Butler who had an all-time great finals in 2020, who gets placed on a pedestal on this forum.

You guys still want to claim Kawhi didn't have a stacked team in Toronto?

I never said they didn't have a great team.

Show us a team with the same type of supporting cast that Pippen had in his one and a half year without Jordan where Kawhi is able to lead them as well as he did and I'll concede to this point. Otherwise it's nonsense.

Kawhi is incapable of leading a team like that to 6th place in the Eastern Conference? Right.

No one is trying to claim Pippen was superior offensively. But to act like he didn't have other great attributes outside of scoring is a disservice to what he brought to the table at that end. I have no problem believing that Pippen would have been able to lead the team Kawhi had in 2019 to an NBA Champoinship in a season not filled with super teams (because the only super team remaining being injured is literally the only reason Kawhi even won in 2019 to begin with). I seriously doubt Kawhi would have been able to carry the 94 Bulls or even the 95 team for that matter to the same success that Pippen did.

I highly doubt Kawhi leads that team to a title. It took Kawhi 35 PPG and a game winning shot in game 7 to get them past Philly, and 30 PPG and shutting down Giannis against a 62 win Bucks team in the ECF to win it all. Yet you want us to believe Pippen would have replicated that? Please.

97 bulls

09-26-2021, 10:12 PM

Yea, and Kawhi wins across the board. Regular season, playoffs, game 7s, conference finals, finals. How much do you want before you can concede, because that's a heck of a lot of samples I'm providing whereas you've provided none.

No sir. You choose to ignore what you don't agree with. The only real failure Pippen had was sitting out that play. He's never load managed like Kawhi, always played hurt unlike Kawhi, and never coughed up a 3-1 lead as the heavy favorite like Kawhi. I explained the numbers to you.

I haven't argued just stats, though.

Sure you have. And it's not even stats. It's a small sample size of games that you're circling your wagons around. Again Pippen's 6 championships trumps ANYTHING Leonard has done in the NBA. Even his 2 DPOYs.

Very good post player? I disagree. Slasher - agreed. Streaky shooter? Yes, but that doesn't override the fact that Kawhi is the far better shooter. We've crunched the numbers and they are in Kawhi's favor, significantly. Or shall we go through the finals, conference finals, and game 7s again?
I don't base my arguments solely on 5-7 games bro. You do. I'm comparing their talent, skillsets, and careers. You want to continue to make if about stats in 5 or 6 games lol.

So basically, fat Mark Jackson and and older John Stockton...those guys, by your examples, equate to prime Giannis.
Fat Mark Jackson was still tearing defenses apart. And so was old John Stockton. And I didn't just list those two, I mentioned Magic, Hardaway, and Rice as well.

HoopsNY

09-26-2021, 10:15 PM

Well, even then, the Bulls won 69 games bro. Without Pippen, there's a 13 game difference there. The Raptors won more games without Leonard. They won the Championship true, but I personally think it was a fluke.

So we have 2 FMVPs and 2 titles, but they're flukes, while Pippen did what exactly that supercedes 2019?

Lol again, with the small sample size. Armstrong ad Grant were not players that created their own shot. They just weren't. I mean by default, they're gonna score more. Duh. But the Bulls were 4-6 in those 10 games.

The point is that they were capable of scoring.

Grant without Penny in 1994-95 played in 5 games, he put up 15/10/2 on 51%. Clearly this isn't some anomaly. The man could score and obviously just needed someone to set him up from the perimeter because he had a great mid-range game.

These are small samples, but they add up. I'm not saying these teams were better without their best players. That's asinine.

97 bulls

09-26-2021, 10:58 PM

So we have 2 FMVPs and 2 titles, but they're flukes, while Pippen did what exactly that supercedes 2019?
I said 2019 was a fluke. And his other is overrated seeing as how he won because he supposedly effected LeBron James even though James averaged more points and shot a higher FG% than he did in the season lol.

The point is that they were capable of scoring.

Grant without Penny in 1994-95 played in 5 games, he put up 15/10/2 on 51%. Clearly this isn't some anomaly. The man could score and obviously just needed someone to set him up from the perimeter because he had a great mid-range game.

These are small samples, but they add up. I'm not saying these teams were better without their best players. That's asinine.

Lol. Small sample size bro. 5 games? Really????

Maybe - just maybe - Pippen was not capable of elite scoring? And that adds up given his skill level.

Here's food for thought. The Bulls were an elite defensive team in 1995 before MJ returned, that wasn't just Pippen. So maybe he should have assumed more of a role where scoring was concerned? Or maybe he just wasn't capable.
This has already been addressed bro. He did what he felt he had to do to win. I think him scoring more would have hurt the teams wins.

I don't believe you stated the bold. Here's the Bulls starters for 95
BJ Armstrong mediocre defender
Ron Harper excellent defender but only played 20min a night
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc horrible defender
Luc Longley ok defender.

Them finishing 2nd in defense was ALL PIPPEN!!!!!

3ba11

09-26-2021, 11:02 PM

I said 2019 was a fluke. And his other is overrated seeing as how he won because he supposedly effected LeBron James even though James averaged more points and shot a higher FG% than he did in the season lol.

Lol. Small sample size bro. 5 games? Really????

This has already been addressed bro. He did what he felt he had to do to win. I think him scoring more would have hurt the teams wins.

I don't believe you stated the bold. Here's the Bulls starters for 95
BJ Armstrong mediocre defender
Ron Harper excellent defender but only played 20min a night
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc horrible defender
Luc Longley ok defender.

Them finishing 2nd in defense was ALL PIPPEN!!!!!

Normally, if a 2nd option averages 16 on 43%, the team has little chance of winning - Pippen averaged 16 on 43% and much worse in half the series he played (20 series)

Pippen had literally the worst efficiency ever for a winning sidekick - he has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs in playoff history for a winning sidekick (93', 97', 98')... How can you compare a guy with Westbrook efficiency but half the production across the board..... to Kawhi?...

Makes no sense, other than your brain being addicted to the "6 rings doh" logic and therefore making up excuses to explain pippen's many drawbacks and somehow conjure up a convoluted, nonsensical reasoning to put him on Kawhi's level (ridiculous)

97 bulls

09-26-2021, 11:10 PM

Normally, if a 2nd option averages 16 on 43%, the team has little chance of winning - Pippen averaged 16 on 43% and much worse in half the series he played (20 series)

Pippen had literally the worst efficiency ever for a winning sidekick - he has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs in playoff history for a winning sidekick (93', 97', 98')... How can you compare a guy with Westbrook efficiency but half the production across the board..... to Kawhi?...

Makes no sense, other than your brain being addicted to the "6 rings doh" logic and therefore making up excuses to explain pippen's many drawbacks and somehow conjure up a convoluted, nonsensical reasoning to put him on Kawhi's level (ridiculous)

Again, another person that doesn't know basketball past scoring. All I need to know really, is that Pippen co-led the Bulls to 6 championships. Stats be damned. They won. And he didn't better without MJ than MJ did without him. Pippen didn't focus on scoring, he focused on winning. And he's one of the best to do it.

Axe

09-27-2021, 01:40 AM

97 bulls

09-27-2021, 09:41 AM

Would pippen do better if he played in the more superior era? Just wondering.

I don't believe one era is superior over another. It's different.

3ba11

09-27-2021, 01:00 PM

Again, another person that doesn't know basketball past scoring. All I need to know really, is that Pippen co-led the Bulls to 6 championships. Stats be damned. They won. And he didn't better without MJ than MJ did without him. Pippen didn't focus on scoring, he focused on winning. And he's one of the best to do it.

No, you don't get it

Spotty scorers that play good defense are called defensive role players who fail their 2nd option scoring role - the term "2nd option" refers to scoring, and Pippen usually failed this role - he was just a defensive role player that averaged 16 on 39% most of the time.

So Jordan carried a team of defensive role players to titles - they played 4 on 5 with Rodman, while Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. that's the worst offensive help of ANY TEAM EVER.

And anyone can make Pippen seem good if you lie about him - Pippen didn't co-lead anything because there's never been a bigger gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ/Pippen.. Pippen was carried more than any sidekick ever and the stats prove that very clearly.

97 bulls

09-27-2021, 02:11 PM

No, you don't get it

Spotty scorers that play good defense are called defensive role players who fail their 2nd option scoring role - the term "2nd option" refers to scoring, and Pippen usually failed this role - he was just a defensive role player that averaged 16 on 39% most of the time.

So Jordan carried a team of defensive role players to titles - they played 4 on 5 with Rodman, while Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. that's the worst offensive help of ANY TEAM EVER.

And anyone can make Pippen seem good if you lie about him - Pippen didn't co-lead anything because there's never been a bigger gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ/Pippen.. Pippen was carried more than any sidekick ever and the stats prove that very clearly.

Correction. EVERYONE BUT YOU says Pippen co-led the Bulls.

All the other stuff you say is just drivel. I can't help you anymore than I already have.

k0kakw0rld

09-27-2021, 03:23 PM

Kawhi is the better player. Whoever says otherwise is a retard.

SaintzFury13

09-27-2021, 07:32 PM

I love reading your posts, but for the love of God, cut them into more paragraphs. *smile*

Sigh.

Fine.

I never said it was a consensus, but it was widely spoken of.

Not really. And if it was, that tune changed very quickly about half way through 2020 because just like that, LeBron being the best in the world was the consensus.

And who is really doing the overrating here. You're acting as if the Bulls - coming off of a championship - with peak Grant (All-Star and All-Defensive 2nd Team), and Armstrong (All-Star), along with Pippen were slouches.

And you're acting like Armstrong was a legit all star. He averaged 15/3/2 for the season. His only claim to fame was that he was a great three point shooter. He didn't make others better. He wasn't a good defender. He wasn't anything special as far as a player is concerned. He got voted an all star because of Chicago Bulls fandom. Hell, he got more votes than Scottie Pippen did. That tells you everything you need to know about the whole thing.

Also, Grant was a really great player, and an excellent robin to have if you're someone like Pippen despite what retards like 3ball say. But that Bulls team from top to bottom wasn't really anything special.

And how good were the 2017 Spurs? I'll give you Green because he was solid defensively, but Kawhi's 2nd option gave him 17 PPG. Parker was 34, Ginobili 39, and Gasol 36. Yet somehow this team wasn't led by Kawhi to 61 wins? C'mon man.

What does what Kawhi did in 2017 have to do with what was happening in 2019?

No you're right, but I do recall Kawhi on help defense and switching a few times on Embiid, but he was tasked with Butler and Harris for the series. Butler got shut down, or are we going to pretend that that didn't happen?

It DIDN'T happen. Either that or you have a very different definition of shut down than I do. Butler's averages for that series was 22 PPG. That's four points higher than what his regular season average was that year. In what way is that "shut down" territory?

Agreed, it still doesn't take away from Kawhi's effective defensive efforts against someone like Butler, a guy who was a legitimate 21-22 PPG threat and got demolished in game 7 by Kawhi on both ends. The same Butler who had an all-time great finals in 2020, who gets placed on a pedestal on this forum.

So now you want to claim Leonard shut down Butler in game 7 of that series?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOega8E2q58

This is a video showing all of the times Butler shot the ball in that game. There are a grand total of five occasions where Leonard was the one guarding Butler. On three of them, Butler is able to go right past Leonard will little difficulty. Throughout the video, you see guys like Green and Gasol do a far better job of defending him.

I never said they didn't have a great team.

But that's exactly the problem. They DID have a great team. A REALLY great team in fact. It's about as well constructed as a team as it gets without having multiple superstars in their primes. You had a veteran point guard who was capable of running the offense, could create his own shot on offense, and was a very good defender. You had a SG who was a top five defender at his position at the time, and was capable of stretching the floor with his three point shooting. You had a great second option on offense in Siakam who was a rising star who was so good on that end that ****ing Draymond Green of all people had trouble guarding him, and he was pretty decent defensively too. And you had Marc Gasol, who was still an elite defender who could stretch the floor with his shooting, was a great passer and possessed good enough footwork to still be a threat downlow. And that's not even mentioning VanVleet, who was a good two way player capable of playing both PG and SG, and Serge Ibaka, who was a great rebounding and shot blocking PF who could stretch the floor and played bully ball about as well as you could ask. Yeah, that 94 Bulls team wasn't filled with slouches or anything, but compared to this? The difference is night and day.

Kawhi is incapable of leading a team like that to 6th place in the Eastern Conference? Right.

Without Horace Grant? I have many doubts that he'd be able to lead that team to the 6th seed.

SaintzFury13

09-27-2021, 07:32 PM

I highly doubt Kawhi leads that team to a title. It took Kawhi 35 PPG and a game winning shot in game 7 to get them past Philly, and 30 PPG and shutting down Giannis against a 62 win Bucks team in the ECF to win it all. Yet you want us to believe Pippen would have replicated that? Please.

And there you go again giving Kawhi Leonard credit for something he didn't do. But I'll get to that in a minute because there's more wrong with this part than just that.

First off, one of the reasons it took Kawhi 35 PPG for the Raptors to win that series is the exact reason I stated before. He wasn't playing anything close to lockdown defense in that series, because that wasn't his role. His role in that series was to roam while the rest of his team did the dirty work. His teammates were the ones giving the insane amount of effort on defense. They were the ones giving maximum effort at both ends. Kawhi wasn't. He couldn't have, because he chose to conserve all that energy for the other end of the court. That was what Kawhi had become at that point in his career. Imagine if he actually DID give maximum effort against Jimmy Butler. What if he actually used all of his defensive abilities and did everything he could to shut down Butler. You think Butler's averaging 22 PPG on a determined Kawhi? LeBron couldn't do that, so what the hell makes you think he could?

I mean, either way it doesn't matter. In both scenarios, it demonstrates the greatness of Kawhi as a player and what he was capable of. But now I ask the question: what makes you think Pippen wouldn't have been able to do that? Butler didn't posses the quickness needed to blow right past players, at least not at that point in his career. He was a guy who relied more on his instincts and strength. Pippen LOVED defending players like this, because he had the strength, length and instincts to make those things a non factor. Not only that, but for as much as I loved that Raptors team, one of the things they lacked was a truly elite playmaker. I like Kyle Lowry as a player but he does not fit that memo. Scottie Pippen does. With Scottie Pippen on a team like this, we'd at the very least so a more well balanced and better ran offense. And unlike Kawhi (and this is something you have to at the very least admit to), Pippen is not going to play the role of the guy who "roams" on defense. He is going to give everything he has on that end of the floor. So yes, I absolutely believe with all of my heart that Pippen would have been able to lead the Raptors past that 76ers team.

Second, let's talk about the Bucks shall we?

Kawhi Leonard did NOT shut down Giannis in that series. Hell, Giannis only really had one game where he struggled and that was game 3 (if you want to say Kawhi shut him down in game 3, then you are absolutely correct, but not the series). In the first two games of that series, Pascal Siakam was the one guarding Giannis. From game 3 on, Kawhi was the one tasked with guarding him. A lot of people pretend that this is what changed the series in Toronto's favor, but it wasn't. Giannis still scored above his series average in games 4 and 5, and he just straight up shat the bed in game 6. What really changed the outcome of the series was Danny Green being taken out of the starting line up and being replaced by Fred VanVleet at the two guard spot. He was having a far better shooting series than Green was and he was no slouch on defense either. Toronto was still able to use their regular defensive schemes (and when it pertained to Giannis, literally swarm him with help defense anytime he attacked the rim with the center in the paint, which is what Miami did the following season and it also worked in their favor) and now they had a far better offensive scheme to work with. The moment Vanvleet got inserted in the starting line up with starter minutes, the Bucks were screwed.

Edit: I don't even know why I said Kawhi became Giannis' main defensive assignment after game 2. That's completely false. Siakam was still the one tasked with guarding him the most, but Kawhi did in fact guard him more frequently and game 3 was where he guarded him the most.

SaintzFury13

09-27-2021, 07:35 PM

No, you don't get it

Spotty scorers that play good defense are called defensive role players who fail their 2nd option scoring role

No, YOU don't get it, because you thinking that all Scottie Pippen was is a spotty scorer who played good defense demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of his game and what he did for the Bulls. But then again, I wouldn't expect someone who didn't watch him play and only uses stats when discussing him to understand this.

HoopsNY

09-30-2021, 08:37 PM

Sigh.

Fine.

Not really. And if it was, that tune changed very quickly about half way through 2020 because just like that, LeBron being the best in the world was the consensus.

"After an impressive run through the 2019 playoffs, Kawhi Leonard has taken the mantle as the best player in the NBA.

This is at least how the 20 coaches, executives and scouts felt in a recent poll conducted by Tim Bontemps of ESPN. The Los Angeles Clippers forward earned 12 votes, ahead of Giannis Antetokounmpo with six and James Harden with two."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2846897-kawhi-leonard-voted-nbas-best-player-clippers-moves-touted-in-offseason-survey

Not sure what consensus you're speaking of, but that wasn't the case. And even if it was, we're talking only about 2019 here.

And you're acting like Armstrong was a legit all star. He averaged 15/3/2 for the season. His only claim to fame was that he was a great three point shooter. He didn't make others better. He wasn't a good defender. He wasn't anything special as far as a player is concerned. He got voted an all star because of Chicago Bulls fandom. Hell, he got more votes than Scottie Pippen did. That tells you everything you need to know about the whole thing.

Not saying that Armstrong was any of that, but he was at his peak as a great role player for Chicago. In the ECSF against an elite defense, he put up 17 PPG on 61% TS%.

The point is, you're giving Pippen all the credit for Chicago's run, while ignoring the significant contributions of his cast. He didn't do it alone. And the fact that BJ put up 19/3/5 on 46/45/93 splits in Pippen's absence shows that he was able to step up to the plate.

Also, Grant was a really great player, and an excellent robin to have if you're someone like Pippen despite what retards like 3ball say. But that Bulls team from top to bottom wasn't really anything special.

Agreed

What does what Kawhi did in 2017 have to do with what was happening in 2019?

You're the one asking if Kawhi could lead that 1994 Chicago team. He did just fine in 2017. Why wouldn't he with a championship cast?

It DIDN'T happen. Either that or you have a very different definition of shut down than I do. Butler's averages for that series was 22 PPG. That's four points higher than what his regular season average was that year. In what way is that "shut down" territory?

So now you want to claim Leonard shut down Butler in game 7 of that series?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOega8E2q58

This is a video showing all of the times Butler shot the ball in that game. There are a grand total of five occasions where Leonard was the one guarding Butler. On three of them, Butler is able to go right past Leonard will little difficulty. Throughout the video, you see guys like Green and Gasol do a far better job of defending him.

No mention that all 3 shots that Kawhi contested in that clip, Butler missed.

No mention of Kawhi's 3 steals in the game, 2 of which were off of Butler and Embiid, both leading to fast break points.

No accounting for forcing to the weak side, changing shots, forcing a double team, or anything else Kawhi did defensively. Not to mention contesting shots and being called for fouls, which is good defensive strategy when the moment called for it. For example, he blocked Harris (clean block) and was called for a foul on one play.

At this point, you might as well say Kawhi did nothing defensively in game 7.

But that's exactly the problem. They DID have a great team. A REALLY great team in fact. It's about as well constructed as a team as it gets without having multiple superstars in their primes. You had a veteran point guard who was capable of running the offense, could create his own shot on offense, and was a very good defender. You had a SG who was a top five defender at his position at the time, and was capable of stretching the floor with his three point shooting. You had a great second option on offense in Siakam who was a rising star who was so good on that end that ****ing Draymond Green of all people had trouble guarding him, and he was pretty decent defensively too. And you had Marc Gasol, who was still an elite defender who could stretch the floor with his shooting, was a great passer and possessed good enough footwork to still be a threat downlow. And that's not even mentioning VanVleet, who was a good two way player capable of playing both PG and SG, and Serge Ibaka, who was a great rebounding and shot blocking PF who could stretch the floor and played bully ball about as well as you could ask. Yeah, that 94 Bulls team wasn't filled with slouches or anything, but compared to this? The difference is night and day.

Kawhi led a 2017 team to a 61 win season with a bunch of has beens where Aldridge wasn't an all-star, averaging 17 PPG in one of the biggest offensive eras in league history. I'm not debating that the Raptors had a solid team, they did. But Kawhi's peak includes 2017. Saying he couldn't lead the '94 Bulls is disingenuous.

Without Horace Grant? I have many doubts that he'd be able to lead that team to the 6th seed.

You do realize that Chicago was just 3 games above .500 prior to MJ's return, right? Forget about the seeding for a second; we're basically discussing a .500 win team here.

SaintzFury13

09-30-2021, 10:01 PM

"After an impressive run through the 2019 playoffs, Kawhi Leonard has taken the mantle as the best player in the NBA.

This is at least how the 20 coaches, executives and scouts felt in a recent poll conducted by Tim Bontemps of ESPN. The Los Angeles Clippers forward earned 12 votes, ahead of Giannis Antetokounmpo with six and James Harden with two."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2846897-kawhi-leonard-voted-nbas-best-player-clippers-moves-touted-in-offseason-survey

Not sure what consensus you're speaking of, but that wasn't the case. And even if it was, we're talking only about 2019 here.

Well shit, you've got me on that one. I honestly don't remember Kawhi being considered the best in the world by that much, but it appears I am wrong on this one.

Not saying that Armstrong was any of that, but he was at his peak as a great role player for Chicago. In the ECSF against an elite defense, he put up 17 PPG on 61% TS%.

Yeah, he was a great ROLE PLAYER. He was not an all star caliber player, by any stretch of the imagination.

The point is, you're giving Pippen all the credit for Chicago's run, while ignoring the significant contributions of his cast. He didn't do it alone. And the fact that BJ put up 19/3/5 on 46/45/93 splits in Pippen's absence shows that he was able to step up to the plate.

I'm not saying Pippen didn't have help. I've gone on record numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) times now stating that Horace Grant was a terrific sidekick for Pippen. BJ Armstrong wasn't an all star caliber player by any means. The same could be said about Mo Williams. That doesn't mean they weren't still very valuable players. But again, you are comparing that to Marc Gasol, Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam, Serge Ibaka, Fred VanVleet, Danny Green. I mean, the talent gap here is massive. Their supporting casts simply do not compare.

You're the one asking if Kawhi could lead that 1994 Chicago team. He did just fine in 2017. Why wouldn't he with a championship cast?

Because the 94 Bulls are not a championship cast. And that team is structured a lot differently than the 17 Spurs are.

No mention that all 3 shots that Kawhi contested in that clip, Butler missed.

Great, good for him. In all three contested shots, Kawhi made him miss. What about all the other times Butler got right past Kawhi with no problem? How is that shut down territory?

No mention of Kawhi's 3 steals in the game, 2 of which were off of Butler and Embiid, both leading to fast break points.

No accounting for forcing to the weak side, changing shots, forcing a double team, or anything else Kawhi did defensively. Not to mention contesting shots and being called for fouls, which is good defensive strategy when the moment called for it. For example, he blocked Harris (clean block) and was called for a foul on one play.

At this point, you might as well say Kawhi did nothing defensively in game 7.

I'm not saying Kawhi didn't do stuff defensively. You are giving Kawhi all the credit for the defensive work that his teammates did a lot more of than him. As I said before, he played a much more passive role on that end because of the workload he had on offense.

Kawhi led a 2017 team to a 61 win season with a bunch of has beens where Aldridge wasn't an all-star, averaging 17 PPG in one of the biggest offensive eras in league history. I'm not debating that the Raptors had a solid team, they did. But Kawhi's peak includes 2017. Saying he couldn't lead the '94 Bulls is disingenuous.

Again, I don't care what Kawhi did with the 2017 Spurs team. That team and the 94 Bulls were structured very differently. You swap Pippen and put Kawhi in his place, you have no one to run the offense. You have no one to be the main defensive player (because if Kawhi assumes that role, you are taking away the offense he brought to the table in 2017 for the Spurs, with him you just can't have it both ways unfortunately).

The reason I am far more confident in Pippen being able to achieve similar success with the 19 Raptors isn't even necessarily due to Pippen, but more so due to how well balanced and put together that team was. You still have multiple people who can provide the offense in Kawhi's place. You still have multiple people who can help defensively. You have a lot more options to work with. Those options just don't exist with the 94 Bulls. They are not as deep. They are not as well structured. They are a not a team that is capable of having a positive record if they are missing their best player. The 19 Raptors were.

You do realize that Chicago was just 3 games above .500 prior to MJ's return, right? Forget about the seeding for a second; we're basically discussing a .500 win team here.

Yeah, because they had Pippen leading them. Remember, you are talking to a guy who thinks Kawhi would not be able to lead a team like this as well as Pippen. That should explain why I don't think Kawhi would achieve that level of success with the Bulls without Grant.

HoopsNY

09-30-2021, 10:14 PM

Well shit, you've got me on that one. I honestly don't remember Kawhi being considered the best in the world by that much, but it appears I am wrong on this one.

Yeah, he was a great ROLE PLAYER. He was not an all star caliber player, by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not saying Pippen didn't have help. I've gone on record numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) times now stating that Horace Grant was a terrific sidekick for Pippen. BJ Armstrong wasn't an all star caliber player by any means. The same could be said about Mo Williams. That doesn't mean they weren't still very valuable players. But again, you are comparing that to Marc Gasol, Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam, Serge Ibaka, Fred VanVleet, Danny Green. I mean, the talent gap here is massive. Their supporting casts simply do not compare.

Because the 94 Bulls are not a championship cast. And that team is structured a lot differently than the 17 Spurs are.

Great, good for him. In all three contested shots, Kawhi made him miss. What about all the other times Butler got right past Kawhi with no problem? How is that shut down territory?

I'm not saying Kawhi didn't do stuff defensively. You are giving Kawhi all the credit for the defensive work that his teammates did a lot more of than him. As I said before, he played a much more passive role on that end because of the workload he had on offense.

Again, I don't care what Kawhi did with the 2017 Spurs team. That team and the 94 Bulls were structured very differently. You swap Pippen and put Kawhi in his place, you have no one to run the offense. You have no one to be the main defensive player (because if Kawhi assumes that role, you are taking away the offense he brought to the table in 2017 for the Spurs, with him you just can't have it both ways unfortunately).

The reason I am far more confident in Pippen being able to achieve similar success with the 19 Raptors isn't even necessarily due to Pippen, but more so due to how well balanced and put together that team was. You still have multiple people who can provide the offense in Kawhi's place. You still have multiple people who can help defensively. You have a lot more options to work with. Those options just don't exist with the 94 Bulls. They are not as deep. They are not as well structured. They are a not a team that is capable of having a positive record if they are missing their best player. The 19 Raptors were.

Yeah, because they had Pippen leading them. Remember, you are talking to a guy who thinks Kawhi would not be able to lead a team like this as well as Pippen. That should explain why I don't think Kawhi would achieve that level of success with the Bulls without Grant.

Parker was the Spurs' PG in 2017. He was 34 and clearly over the hill. He missed 19 games and SA was 15-4 without him during that stretch. Kawhi played in 15 of those games and put up 28/6/3/2/1 on 62% TS%, so I'm not sure what you're talking about with the supposed need to have someone man the offense. The reality is, Kawhi was still able to lead his team to success minus a floor general.

97 bulls

10-01-2021, 02:38 AM

Parker was the Spurs' PG in 2017. He was 34 and clearly over the hill. He missed 19 games and SA was 15-4 without him during that stretch. Kawhi played in 15 of those games and put up 28/6/3/2/1 on 62% TS%, so I'm not sure what you're talking about with the supposed need to have someone man the offense. The reality is, Kawhi was still able to lead his team to success minus a floor general.

What was the 2017 Spurs record without Leonard?

HoopsNY

10-01-2021, 08:57 AM

What was the 2017 Spurs record without Leonard?

7-1

This is a good point, which I can't deny. It does close the gap. I concede, though I'd still give Kawhi the edge.

chefcurry

10-01-2021, 10:20 AM

People overrate Kawhi's championship season with the Raptors. His supporting cast played immensly. Pippen won 6 rings and played an instrumental role in all of them. Without him, MJ might not have as many rings.

97 bulls

10-01-2021, 10:58 AM

7-1

This is a good point, which I can't deny. It does close the gap. I concede, though I'd still give Kawhi the edge.

It's. Small sample size. Over the course of the season, his loss would've been felt.

HoopsNY

10-01-2021, 11:26 AM

It's. Small sample size. Over the course of the season, his loss would've been felt.

Well yea. Most of the teams they played in those games weren't great with the exception of GS and maybe Toronto. But even Toronto was only a 50 game winner in the Eastern Conference.

The point is that SA didn't have a great floor general, yet Kawhi still led them to a 61 win season. I think it's absurd to think in that era that Kawhi's offensive and defensive abilities wouldn't allow him to lead Chicago to an above .500 win season. lol

expansionera

10-01-2021, 11:34 AM

Well yea. Most of the teams they played in those games weren't great with the exception of GS and maybe Toronto. But even Toronto was only a 50 game winner in the Eastern Conference.

The point is that SA didn't have a great floor general, yet Kawhi still led them to a 61 win season. I think it's absurd to think in that era that Kawhi's offensive and defensive abilities wouldn't allow him to lead Chicago to an above .500 win season. lol
The guy that breaks every time he plays two games in a row? It’s hilarious how rough the 90s were to Jordan fans until such time you have to admit Pippen’s durability and skill is the reason those Bulls teams ever made it out the first round

HoopsNY

10-02-2021, 09:19 AM

The guy that breaks every time he plays two games in a row? It’s hilarious how rough the 90s were to Jordan fans until such time you have to admit Pippen’s durability and skill is the reason those Bulls teams ever made it out the first round

That wouldn't exist if he played in the 90s, though. You have to apply the context of the era with a particular player's skillset. During his peak, he played 72 and 74 games in a season, similar to Pippen's 72 games in 1994. It's not unreasonable to think he does so in 1994 or 1995.

Chicago made it out of the 1st round with rookie Pippen averaging 10 PPG. Stop acting like Chicago was incapable of it when we clearly saw otherwise.

Point-Forward

10-02-2021, 09:37 AM

HoopsNY

10-02-2021, 10:07 AM

Pippen was an amazing player, much valuable than a lot of people recognize him to be, but this ultimately bolds down to shot making. That's probably the most important trait a franchise player can have once Playoff basketball comes (unless you have GOAT playmaking skills like Magic, and even him could score at will when he wanted), and while Pip could score and scored well, he was not the shot maker Kawhi is. I think 2019 proved that, but we really started seeing that from Kawhi around 2015, and it only got better year after year.

Now, if we are talking about resume or throwing that factor into the mix, obviously Kawhi doesn't have the body of work Pippen has. Not close. But that's a different discussion.

What hurts Kawhi in terms of longevity is his load management. Otherwise, at the age of 29 (Pippen retired at 38) he already has compared to Pippen:

5x All-Star | 7x All-Star
3x Finals, 2x titles | 6x Finals, 6x titles
5x All-NBA | 7x All-NBA
1x AS MVP | 1x AS MVP
2x FMVP | 0x FMVP
2 DPOY | 0x DPOY
7x All-Defensive | 10x All-Defensive

Up to this point, Kawhi has almost matched Pippen. He probably has another 5-6 years left in him, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility of him passing him in accolades.

Point-Forward

10-02-2021, 12:57 PM

What hurts Kawhi in terms of longevity is his load management. Otherwise, at the age of 29 (Pippen retired at 38) he already has compared to Pippen:

5x All-Star | 7x All-Star
3x Finals, 2x titles | 6x Finals, 6x titles
5x All-NBA | 7x All-NBA
1x AS MVP | 1x AS MVP
2x FMVP | 0x FMVP
2 DPOY | 0x DPOY
7x All-Defensive | 10x All-Defensive

Up to this point, Kawhi has almost matched Pippen. He probably has another 5-6 years left in him, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility of him passing him in accolades.

I wouldn't rule it out either, but we have to be careful when comparing certain raw accolades. The DPOY thing comes to mind. This is a not a knock on Kawhi cause he probably deserved those, but more a recognition that Pippen could have won those if placed in a different context. Thing is, he was competing for the DPOY in an era that featured peak David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Dikembe Mutombo, and that in general was more "interior" oriented. That is to say: back then, a dominant interior defender was even more valuable and important than today (and it's still very important today, but nowadays your typical hybrid-type defenders, who are able to guard more than one position, cover a lot of space and so on, are the important ones). Put 90's Pippen in today's game, and I'm quite sure he would win a couple of DPOY. He would be extremely valuable on that end. He seems tailored made for this type of basketball actually. The 90's Bulls were already toying with very modern defensive schemes (that was a big part of their magic and sofistication).

With this said, in my mind he definetely deserved the 1996 DPOY over Gary Payton.

3ba11

10-02-2021, 01:05 PM

I wouldn't rule it out either, but we have to be careful when comparing certain raw accolades. The DPOY thing comes to mind. This is a not a knock on Kawhi cause he probably deserved those, but more a recognition that Pippen could have won those if placed in a different context. Thing is, he was competing for the DPOY in an era that featured peak David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Dikembe Mutombo, and that in general was more "interior" oriented. That is to say: back then, a dominant interior defender was even more valuable and important than today (and it's still very important today, but nowadays your typical hybrid-type defenders, who are able to guard more than one position, cover a lot of space and so on, are the important ones). Put 90's Pippen in today's game, and I'm quite sure he would win a couple of DPOY. He would be extremely valuable on that end. He seems tailored made for this type of basketball actually. The 90's Bulls were already toying with very modern defensive schemes (that was a big part of their magic and sofistication).

With this said, in my mind he definetely deserved the 1996 DPOY over Gary Payton.

The problem is that all the video evidence shows that Pippen couldn't stay in front of good ball-handlers

so I don't even think he'd be recognized as a great defender today because his 1-on-1 defense would be constantly getting exposed in today's ball-handler format.

Secondly, the reason Pippen didn't win DPOY is because he wasn't the best defender on his team - Jordan got more DPOY votes every year so THAT'S what shut Pippen out of the dpoy race.

Finally, scoring is what determines whether a player is a 2nd option or not - if a 2nd option doesn't score efficiently or adequately, then they aren't a 2nd option.. So when you guys say that "scoring isn't everything" - you're lying - that's what determines if a player is 2nd option or not.. Indeed, Pippen's defensive hustle only makes him a role player without good scoring/efficiency to go with it

97 bulls

10-02-2021, 01:25 PM

3ba11

10-02-2021, 01:28 PM

Pippen deserved the DPOY in 96 and 95. 95 even more

the reason Pippen didn't win DPOY is because Jordan got more DPOY votes every year - THAT'S what shut Pippen out of the dpoy race - he wasn't considered the best defender on his own team, let alone guys like Robinson, Hakeem, etc - Pippen was never considered anywhere near those guys.. that's why he never won.

Btw, scoring is what determines whether a player is a 2nd option or not - if a 2nd option doesn't score efficiently or adequately, then they aren't a 2nd option.. So when you guys say that "scoring isn't everything" - you're lying - that's what determines if a player is 2nd option or not.. Indeed, Pippen's defensive hustle only makes him a role player without good scoring/efficiency to go with it

Point-Forward

10-02-2021, 01:44 PM

The problem is that all the video evidence shows that Pippen couldn't stay in front of good ball-handlers

so I don't even think he'd be recognized as a great defender today because his 1-on-1 defense would be constantly getting exposed in today's ball-handler format.

Secondly, the reason Pippen didn't win DPOY is because he wasn't the best defender on his team - Jordan got more DPOY votes every year so THAT'S what shut Pippen out of the dpoy race.

Finally, scoring is what determines whether a player is a 2nd option or not - if a 2nd option doesn't score efficiently or adequately, then they aren't a 2nd option.. So when you guys say that "scoring isn't everything" - you're lying - that's what determines if a player is 2nd option or not.. Indeed, Pippen's defensive hustle only makes him a role player without good scoring/efficiency to go with it

The problem is that all the video evidence shows that Pippen couldn't stay in front of good ball-handlers

All the video evidence? Wow, are you sure about that man? Because that's A LOT of evidence. I'm confident you're being sincere here and not trolling...but damn, that's really a lot of evidence.

Care to share, lets say...30 % of it with us? You won't have trouble searching cause apparently there's literally mountains of it piling up.

Jordan got more DPOY votes every year so THAT'S what shut Pippen out of the dpoy race.

Pippen finished ahead in the 1996 and 1997 voting.

So when you guys say that "scoring isn't everything" - you're lying...

What guys? I just registered to this forum and to my knowledge haven't claimed that yet.

97 bulls

10-02-2021, 01:44 PM

the reason Pippen didn't win DPOY is because Jordan got more DPOY votes every year - THAT'S what shut Pippen out of the dpoy race - he wasn't considered the best defender on his own team, let alone guys like Robinson, Hakeem, etc - Pippen was never considered anywhere near those guys.. that's why he never won.

Btw, scoring is what determines whether a player is a 2nd option or not - if a 2nd option doesn't score efficiently or adequately, then they aren't a 2nd option.. So when you guys say that "scoring isn't everything" - you're lying - that's what determines if a player is 2nd option or not.. Indeed, Pippen's defensive hustle only makes him a role player without good scoring/efficiency to go with it

I want to have conversations with you, but you say blatantly stupid stuff.

HoopsNY

10-03-2021, 08:07 PM

I wouldn't rule it out either, but we have to be careful when comparing certain raw accolades. The DPOY thing comes to mind. This is a not a knock on Kawhi cause he probably deserved those, but more a recognition that Pippen could have won those if placed in a different context. Thing is, he was competing for the DPOY in an era that featured peak David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Dikembe Mutombo, and that in general was more "interior" oriented. That is to say: back then, a dominant interior defender was even more valuable and important than today (and it's still very important today, but nowadays your typical hybrid-type defenders, who are able to guard more than one position, cover a lot of space and so on, are the important ones). Put 90's Pippen in today's game, and I'm quite sure he would win a couple of DPOY. He would be extremely valuable on that end. He seems tailored made for this type of basketball actually. The 90's Bulls were already toying with very modern defensive schemes (that was a big part of their magic and sofistication).

With this said, in my mind he definetely deserved the 1996 DPOY over Gary Payton.

To kuniva's point, the opposite holds true. If Kawhi is allowed to body perimeter players, bump them, and hand check, then his defensive abilities would only be enhanced in an era that allowed for such play.

I recall watching the 2019 playoffs and the commentators were discussing how Kawhi would defend his teammates in practice and how his eyes and hands were quick to react, and he would try to teach his teammates how he tracks the ball.

This key precision is only to his advantage when coupled with physicality. It's truly a credit to Kawhi's hand-eye coordination relative to being a defensive specialist.

This doesn't take away from Pippen defensively, it only magnifies how great of a defender Kawhi once was.

3ba11

10-03-2021, 10:32 PM

I want to have conversations with you, but you say blatantly stupid stuff.

How can Pippen get DPOY if his teammate is getting more DPOY votes every year?

Hakeem, Jordan, David Robinson, Mutombo and others got more DPOY votes every year because Pippen was never considered on their level defensively - you guys are literally lying about Pippen because you don't really know what happened and are low character bums

TAZORAC

10-04-2021, 12:07 AM

Not talking about careers, just as players who's better

Kawhi is a perennial top 5 NBA player year in and year out. Pippen was top 15.

3ba11

10-04-2021, 02:54 AM

Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

3ba11

10-04-2021, 02:58 AM

.
TLDR: Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

The most common rings are those won with elite 1st options playing sidekick like Kobe, Curry or Kareem ("1b" sidekicks that have achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP in their career), while it's much less common to win rings with true 2nd options that never achieved FMVP or 25 ppg (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip Hamilton, Jason Terry, Horry) - MJ has 6 rings with these true 2nd options, which is why he's goat.

* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown below:

1988 1st Round

Pippen'....... 10.6 ppg... 47.1 fg... 49.4 ts
L Nance...... 16.8 ppg... 53.1 fg... 58.4 ts

1988 2nd Round

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 45.8 fg... 48.5 ts
Dantley...... 18.6 ppg... 50.0 fg... 58.9 ts

1989 1st Round

Pippen....... 15.0 ppg... 39.7 fg... 51.0 ts
L Nance..... 19.4 ppg... 55.1 fg... 58.9 ts

1989 2nd Round

Pippen....... 14.8 ppg... 58.1 fg... 64.5 ts
Newman.... 15.5 ppg... 45.8 fg... 56.0 ts

1989 ECF

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 40.4 fg... 45.3 ts
Johnson..... 13.7 ppg... 53.3 fg... 59.6 ts

1990 1st Round

Pippen....... 22.5 ppg... 57.1 fg... 63.4 ts
Pierce........ 22.3 ppg... 46.7 fg... 60.4 ts

1990 2nd Round

Pippen........ 20.8 ppg... 53.3 fg... 58.1 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 62.6 ts

1990 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 42.6 fg... 52.0 ts
Isiah'......... 17.6 ppg... 39.0 fg... 51.0 ts

1991 1st Round

Pippen....... 19.7 ppg... 50.0 fg... 55.2 ts
Ewing........ 16.7 ppg... 40.0 fg... 47.3 ts

1991 2nd Round

Pippen........ 23.4 ppg... 57.1 fg... 60.9 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 43.1 fg... 64.4 ts

1991 ECF

Pippen......... 22.5 ppg... 47.5 fg... 56.3 ts
Aguirre........ 16.8 ppg... 45.3 fg... 55.4 ts

1991 Finals

Pippen'...... 20.6 ppg... 45.3 fg... 52.7 ts
Magic........ 18.3 ppg... 43.1 fg... 61.2 ts

1992 1st Round

Pippen....... 24.0 ppg... 55.3 fg... 63.0 ts
Ewing........ 19.0 ppg... 37.5 fg... 42.5 ts

1992 2nd Round

Pippen'....... 16.0 ppg... 40.4 fg... 49.3 ts
X-Man........ 18.6 ppg... 49.6 fg... 52.7 ts

1992 ECF

Pippen....... 19.8 ppg... 47.3 fg... 53.6 ts
Nance........ 17.8 ppg... 46.7 fg... 51.9 ts

1992 Finals

Pippen'....... 20.8 ppg... 48.4 fg... 56.0 ts
Porter......... 16.2 ppg... 47.1 fg... 57.1 ts

1993 1st Round

Pippen...... 15.3 ppg... 42.2 fg... 45.7 ts
Willis........ 16.7 ppg... 46.7 fg... 48.9 ts

1993 2nd Round

Pippen......... 18.3 ppg... 47.5 fg... 51.0 ts
Daughtery.... 16.0 ppg... 56.1 fg... 56.1 ts

1993 ECF

Pippen'...... 22.5 ppg... 51.0 fg... 57.3 ts
Starks....... 15.2 ppg... 45.3 fg... 54.6 ts

1993 Finals

Pippen...... 21.2 ppg... 43.9 fg... 45.9 ts
Majerle..... 17.2 ppg... 44.3 fg... 58.7 ts

1994 1st Round

Pippen...... 25.3 ppg... 49.3 fg... 53.7 ts
Mills......... 17.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 59.5 ts

1994 2nd Round

Pippen...... 21.7 ppg... 40.5 fg... 51.3 ts
Ewing....... 22.9 ppg... 53.0 fg... 58.1 ts

1995 1st Round

Pippen........ 16.0 ppg... 51.2 fg... 60.2 ts
Johnson...... 20.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 54.6 ts

1995 2nd Round

Pippen'...... 19.0 ppg... 40.9 fg... 52.2 ts
Penny........ 18.5 ppg... 44.0 fg... 54.7 ts

1996 1st Round

Pippen..,,..... 19.7 ppg... 55.6 fg... 64.0 ts
Hardaway'.... 17.7 ppg... 46.5 fg... 57.5 ts

1996 2nd Round

Pippen..,,,,,.... 15.6 ppg... 33.0 fg... 41.6 ts
Oakley........... 13.4 ppg... 50.0 fg... 57.7 ts

1996 ECF

Pippen'...... 18.5 ppg... 45.3 fg... 50.8 ts
Penny........ 25.5 ppg... 46.9 fg... 55.2 ts

1996 Finals

Pippen...... 15.7 ppg... 34.0 fg... 42.9 ts
Payton...... 18.0 ppg... 44.4 fg... 53.2 ts

1997 1st Round

Pippen....... 16.7 ppg... 38.9 fg... 49.8 ts
Howard...... 18.7 ppg... 45.5 fg... 53.9 ts

1997 2nd Round

Pippen...... 22.2 ppg... 42.9 fg... 52.4 ts
Smith....... 17.6 ppg... 31.9 fg... 49.1 ts

1997 ECF

Pippen......... 16.8 ppg... 41.7 fg... 52.6 ts
Mourning..... 15.6 ppg... 46.8 fg... 56.2 ts

1997 Finals

Pippen....... 20.0 ppg... 42.1 fg... 54.1 ts
Stockton.... 15.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 61.3 ts

1998 1st Round

Pippen....... 18.0 ppg... 43.6 fg... 53.1 ts
Kitttles...... 16.3 ppg... 42.5 fg... 54.6 ts

1998 2nd Round

Pippen....... 17.8 ppg... 44.3 fg... 53.5 ts
Mason........ 12.6 ppg... 51.0 fg... 55.3 ts

1998 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 39.2 fg... 46.3 ts
Smits........ 16.3 ppg... 55.4 fg... 62.8 ts

1998 Finals

Pippen.......... 15.7 ppg... 41.0 fg... 50.2 ts
Hornacek...... 10.7 ppg... 41.1 fg... 50.1 ts

* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown above