Pippen was insanely garbage. Holy hell

[000]

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league

[3ba11]

Compare peak to peak, not peak to bad season

Pippen had a top 1000 peak, while Kawhi had a top 50 or greater peak

22/5 is a top 1000 peak

55 wins is a top 1000 peak

2nd Round is a top 1000 peak

[SouBeachTalents]

First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, top 3 in MVP voting, top 5 in DPOY voting, dude was absolute trash

[GrayGoat]

Pippen outscored most other 2nd options. If Pippen is trash then by default all 2nd options were trash

[000]

Compare peak to peak, not peak to bad season

Pippen had a top 1000 peak, while Kawhi had a top 50 or greater peak

22/5 is a top 1000 peak

55 wins is a top 1000 peak

2nd Round is a top 1000 peak

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league

[Shogon]

Compare peak to peak, not peak to bad season

Pippen had a top 1000 peak, while Kawhi had a top 50 or greater peak

22/5 is a top 1000 peak

55 wins is a top 1000 peak

2nd Round is a top 1000 peak

Pippen had a top 1000 peak?

How can anyone take this account seriously?

Why do any of you entertain his shit? lmaoo... I mean don't get me wrong every once in a while is ok but you guys make a habit out of arguing with someone who very obviously one of two things if not both.

1) Absolutely deranged.

Or more likely...

2) Obsessive compulsive with baiting people.

[ShawkFactory]

Compare peak to peak, not peak to bad season

Pippen had a top 1000 peak, while Kawhi had a top 50 or greater peak

22/5 is a top 1000 peak

55 wins is a top 1000 peak

2nd Round is a top 1000 peak

:roll:

[GrayGoat]

Pippen outscored most other 2nd options. If Pippen is trash then by default all 2nd options were trash

3ball?

[expansionera]

Michael fans have lost their mind, having come to the realization the rangz argument looks absolutely silly with such legends as Robert Horry and Steve Kerr having more jewelry than Jordan (not to mention Bill Russell’s very legitimate argument over Jordan as a champion/player) they have to switch their tactics to promoting revisionist history, now Pippen was a worse Boris Diaw :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Pippen had a top 1000 peak?

How can anyone take this account seriously?

Why do any of you entertain his shit? lmaoo... I mean don't get me wrong every once in a while is ok but you guys make a habit out of arguing with someone who very obviously one of two things if not both.

1) Absolutely deranged.

Or more likely...

2) Obsessive compulsive with baiting people.


* Pippen peaked at 22.0 and 5.6 assists


^^^ that's a top 1000 peak


* Pippen peaked at 55 wins and 2nd Round


^^^ that's a top 1000 peak


Pippen had 1 viable regular season in 94' due to 3-peat system and swagger..

But after getting exposed in the 94' playoffs, the 95' Bulls were borderline lottery before MJ returned - so Pippen destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years.. A team can't be that good with Pippen as the best scorer.. Period

[ELITEpower23]

First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, top 3 in MVP voting, top 5 in DPOY voting, dude was absolute trash

:lol

Pippen was a bum

Big Z > Pippen

:roll:

[3ba11]

Pippen outscored most other 2nd options. If Pippen is trash then by default all 2nd options were trash


1998 ECF

Pippen.... 16.6 on 39%
Smits...... 16.2 on 55%


Is this what you mean by outscore?

Pippen's worst-ever Westbrook efficiency meant that he was completely wetting the bed and getting outplayed in the majority of series

And Pippen was outscored by an opposing 2nd option in every playoffs except 91' - Pippen's horrific play caused loss or nearly caused loss in most ECF and Finals

Ultimately, Pippen had Iverson/Westbrook efficiency but only half their production across the board - Jordan won 6 chips with half a Westbrook

[MadDog]

1998 ECF

Pippen.... 16.6 on 39%
Smits...... 16.2 on 55%


Is this what you mean by outscore?

Pippen's worst-ever Westbrook efficiency meant that he was completely wetting the bed and getting outplayed in the majority of series

And Pippen was outscored by an opposing 2nd option in every playoffs except 91' - Pippen's horrific play caused loss or nearly caused loss in most ECF and Finals

Ultimately, Pippen had Iverson/Westbrook efficiency but only half their production across the board - Jordan won 6 chips with half a Westbrook

Cherry-picking one series doesn't work. When Chicago won their first title, Pippen outscored EVERY number 2 and all but ONE go-to player (on great efficiency to boot). From 91-93 and 96-98, Pippen outscored opposing number 2s in over 70% of their series. I think that's what he meant by outscore.

[8Ball]

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league

Thread Cliffs:

1994 Pippen vs 2020 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #8 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #32 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #36 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #6 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #77 in BPG

1994 bulls pace: 3rd slowest in the league
2020 clippers pace: 8th fastest in the league


ALSO

Scottie Vs Kawhi 1994 vs 2020
1st team all-NBA vs 2nd team all-nba
1st team all defensive vs 2nd team all defensive

[ShawkFactory]

3ball: "compare peak to peak!"

anyone else: "pippen outscored most second options"

3ball: "well here's one series where it didn't happen. See Pippen sucks"

It's so insane. You're like 40..

[97 bulls]

Lol. I love it.

[3ba11]

Cherry-picking one series doesn't work.





It isn't cherry-picking - the 98' ECF is an example of the standard - Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat playoffs - so he has many series of 15-16 ppg on 33-43%

In addition to playing worse than Pandemic P for the entire 2nd three-peat, Pippen had the worst impact stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP), while choking against Ewing in 94' and causing loss in the 95' ECSF with 19 on 40%...

Again - this stuff was the standard, and the 98' ECF was just one example of many.. 96' Finals anyone? And how about when jordan "Lebronto'd" shaq/penny while pippen was outplayed by his matchup in the 96' ECF?,... Again, standard stuff from 1988-2003 (with the lone exception of 91').






When Chicago won their first title, Pippen outscored EVERY number 2 and all but ONE go-to player (on great efficiency to boot).





^^^ You're cherry-picking

The historical record shows that 91' was Pippen's only viable playoff run - he otherwise caused loss or nearly caused loss every year:


* 88-90 Playoffs - caused loss each year, culminating in the "migraine" that tricked off the title

* 92' Playoffs - "The X-Man Debacle" in 92' ECSF that nearly caused historic upset and derailed the repeat

* 93' Playoffs - worst impact stats in history for winning sidekick (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP) and 45% TS in Finals while letting rookie Dumas go off

* 94' Playoffs - 21.7 on 40% and historic chokes vs Ewing, so the 1st option experiment culminated in career-defining disaster

* 95' Playoffs - outplayed by Larry Johnson in 1st Round and caused loss in 2nd Round with 19 on 40%

* 96-98' Playoffs - 17.6 on 41% including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 40% and many other bed wettings

* 99-03' Playoffs - 11 ppg and the 89 millionth option on the Rockets and Blazers


^^^ Pippen was literally BAD in the playoffs every year except 91' - aka no one saw their ranking inflated more by 6 rings than Pippen






From 91-93 and 96-98, Pippen outscored opposing number 2s in over 70% of their series. I think that's what he meant by outscore.





AD outscored the whole league in the playoffs, not just a 2nd option, while Wade and Kyrie outscored the opposing 1st options in 11', 13' and 16' Finals.

So outscoring 2nd options is nothing when other 2nd options are outscoring the opposing 1st options as a standard.. And Pippen only didi it 70% of the time, in his prime!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

And he was outplayed in at least half his series when you consider his worst-ever westbrook efficiency (like the 98' Finals, 96' Finals, 93' Finals - too many to name - his whole playoff career damn near)

[Axe]

Why didn't you post that under 2ball? Dumbass. ;)

[000]

Round 2

1994 Pippen vs 2021 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #16 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #45 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #34 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #7 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #115 in BPG

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball: "compare peak to peak!"

anyone else: "pippen outscored most second options"

3ball: "well here's one series where it didn't happen. See Pippen sucks"

It's so insane. You're like 40..
Exactly, that's the epitome of 3ball's posting. He always contradicts himself, and he has to resort to either laughably cherrypicked shit like you referenced, or blatantly making shit up.

For example, he criticizes LeBron for "only" outscoring his 2nd option by 3-6 points in the Finals. Yet Kobe gets outscored by 10-20 points in every Final for his first 3 titles and he gets full credit because of "the triangle" or "GOAT footwork" or some other bullshit :lol

Just look at his 2 most obsessed targets. With Pippen the entire basis of his arguments are stat based, everything else be damned. But when it comes to LeBron? They become completely irrelevant. Regardless of his across the board statistical advantage over literally all but a handful of players, LeBron's not even a top 10 player. Dude is an absolute clown :lol

[FireDavidKahn]

Imagine actually thinking this:roll:

[hold this L]

3ball: "compare peak to peak!"

anyone else: "pippen outscored most second options"

3ball: "well here's one series where it didn't happen. See Pippen sucks"

It's so insane. You're like 40..

The guy is definitely an embarrassment. :lol

[MadDog]

It isn't cherry-picking - the 98' ECF is an example of the standard - Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat playoffs - so he has many series of 15-16 ppg on 33-43%

In addition to playing worse than Pandemic P for the entire 2nd three-peat, Pippen had the worst impact stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP), while choking against Ewing in 94' and causing loss in the 95' ECSF with 19 on 40%...

Again - this stuff was the standard, and the 98' ECF was just one example of many.. 96' Finals anyone? And how about when jordan "Lebronto'd" shaq/penny while pippen was outplayed by his matchup in the 96' ECF?,... Again, standard stuff from 1988-2003 (with the lone exception of 91').

^^^ You're cherry-picking

The historical record shows that 91' was Pippen's only viable playoff run - he otherwise caused loss or nearly caused loss every year:

* 88-90 Playoffs - caused loss each year, culminating in the "migraine" that tricked off the title

* 92' Playoffs - "The X-Man Debacle" in 92' ECSF that nearly caused historic upset and derailed the repeat

* 93' Playoffs - worst impact stats in history for winning sidekick (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP) and 45% TS in Finals while letting rookie Dumas go off

* 94' Playoffs - 21.7 on 40% and historic chokes vs Ewing, so the 1st option experiment culminated in career-defining disaster

* 95' Playoffs - outplayed by Larry Johnson in 1st Round and caused loss in 2nd Round with 19 on 40%

* 96-98' Playoffs - 17.6 on 41% including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 40% and many other bed wettings

* 99-03' Playoffs - 11 ppg and the 89 millionth option on the Rockets and Blazers

^^^ Pippen was literally BAD in the playoffs every year except 91' - aka no one saw their ranking inflated more by 6 rings than Pippen

AD outscored the whole league in the playoffs, not just a 2nd option, while Wade and Kyrie outscored the opposing 1st options in 11', 13' and 16' Finals.

So outscoring 2nd options is nothing when other 2nd options are outscoring the opposing 1st options as a standard.. And Pippen only didi it 70% of the time, in his prime!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

And he was outplayed in at least half his series when you consider his worst-ever westbrook efficiency (like the 98' Finals, 96' Finals, 93' Finals - too many to name - his whole playoff career damn near)

Of course you're cherry-picking. You literally plucked ONE series and claimed its the standard. That makes no sense lol. We agree Pippen's playoff scoring (96-98) was subpar compared to Jordan. But relative to the era, his scoring as a number 2 was just fine. Once again, in 19/24 series the championship Bulls played in, Pippen outscored every number 2.

You're also rattling off his BPM-PER-WS48-VORP (in the 90s and for his role, Pippen's advanced stats were elite), but you completely ignore these numbers when it pertains to LeBron. If you want to be taken seriously you're gonna have to start being consistent. :confusedshrug: No other way around it.

[ELITEpower23]

Pippen outscored most other 2nd options. If Pippen is trash then by default all 2nd options were trash

90s ball is ruined with one sentence :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, top 3 in MVP voting, top 5 in DPOY voting, dude was absolute trash

3ball: Winning spotlight achievements.

[000]

Imagine actually thinking this:roll:

1994 Pippen vs 2021 Kawhi:

#8 in PPG vs #16 in PPG
#22 in RPG vs #45 in RPG
#19 in APG vs #34 in APG
#2 in SPG (0.1 less than #1) vs #7 in SPG
#43 in BPG vs #115 in BPG

[DoctorP]

Pippen would destroy OP with a hand tied behind his back. :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball: Winning spotlight achievements.

Something something skill deficit. Something something triangle footwork :lol

[97 bulls]

Something something skill deficit. Something something triangle footwork :lol

These must be the cliff notes:oldlol:

[ELITEpower23]

The guy is definitely an embarrassment. :lol

:oldlol:

[GrayGoat]

Y’all ran 3ball off this thread lol

[Axe]

Pippen would destroy OP with a hand tied behind his back. :lol
:yaohappy:

[3ba11]

Once again, in 19/24 series the championship Bulls played in, Pippen outscored every number 2.





1) Since 1980 (3-pointer basketball), outscoring the opposing 2nd option 75% of the time is the standard for the lower tier of winning sidekicks during their title runs (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry), while the top tier of winning sidekicks outscore the opposing 1st option, routinely achieve elite 1st option stats, or win FMVP (Kobe, Curry, AD, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Kawhi).. So winning rings with the lower tier of sidekick (true 2nd option) is more rare and Jordan did it 6 times.

2) By only counting the championship years in your 19/24 number, you're conceding that Pippen caused loss in the other years by failing to outscore opposing sidekicks at an adequate rate - so let's not exclude those years.. Pippen was outscored in 6 of 10 series during the 88-90' and 95' Playoffs, thus losing 4 titles those years - his 60% rate of getting outscored in those years exceeds the 25% threshold of lower tier sidekicks discussed previously.. In addition to losing 4 titles, Pippen nearly caused loss with horrible stats in other Playoffs (92' ECSF, 93' Playoffs, 96-98 Playoffs, 88-90' Playoffs, 95' Playoffs, 99-03' Playoffs).





You're also rattling off his BPM-PER-WS48-VORP (in the 90s and for his role, Pippen's advanced stats were elite)





The impact stats account for era and Pippen ranks about 125 all-time in them except the steals-counter BPM (stockton is 8th all-time in BPM):

Career Rankings


PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107



WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129


Ortg:

Horace Grant..... 4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250


Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250


BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent.
All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

[000]

Pippen would destroy OP with a hand tied behind his back. :lol

You aint the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

[TheGoatest]

https://images4.imagebam.com/ac/22/81/ME3RAOJ_o.png

[000]

https://images4.imagebam.com/ac/22/81/ME3RAOJ_o.png

Wow, didnt think about it from that angle

[MadDog]

Since 1980 (3-pointer basketball), outscoring the opposing 2nd option 75% of the time is the standard for the lower tier of winning sidekicks during their title runs (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry), while the top tier of winning sidekicks outscore the opposing 1st option, routinely achieve elite 1st option stats, or win FMVP (Kobe, Curry, AD, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Kawhi).. So winning rings with the lower tier of sidekick (true 2nd option) is more rare and Jordan did it 6 times.

2) By only counting the championship years in your 19/24 number, you're conceding that Pippen caused loss in the other years by failing to outscore opposing sidekicks at an adequate rate - so let's not exclude those years.. Pippen was outscored in 6 of 10 series during the 88-90' and 95' Playoffs, thus losing 4 titles those years - his 60% rate of getting outscored in those years exceeds the 25% threshold of lower tier sidekicks discussed previously.. In addition to losing 4 titles, Pippen nearly caused loss with horrible stats in other Playoffs (92' ECSF, 93' Playoffs, 96-98 Playoffs, 88-90' Playoffs, 95' Playoffs, 99-03' Playoffs).

The impact stats account for era and Pippen ranks about 125 all-time in them except the steals-counter BPM (stockton is 8th all-time in BPM):

[size=3]Career Rankings

PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129

Ortg:

Horace Grant..... 4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250

True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176

Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent.
All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.


Post the series and numbers. If you're going to make a statement like that, then back it up with evidence. Again, the Bulls were a dynasty and three-peated twice. Pippen outscoring second options from opposing teams proved to be successful. You continue to make this about all-time stats, but relative to the 90s, Pippen was year in and out a top 8 scorer. Comparing Pippen to scorers like Curry & Kyrie is irrelevant and devoid of context. Pippen played on both ends, and didn't need to take shots from Jordan.

Me pointing out what Pippen scored in 19/24 series is just that. The 5 series Pippen didn't, Chicago still won, so what "losses" are you talking about? Look at the 97 first round or 96 ECF, where Pippen was outscored by their number twos. The Bulls swept both teams lol. Honestly do you even understand what you're debating?

You keep listing advanced stats, but here's the problem. You ignore that Pippen's advanced stats were routintely elite in the 90s (top 8 year in and out that decade). Not only that, but those same advanced numbers suggest LeBron is a top 3 player all-time. Bare minimum. :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

Post the series and numbers.


:


Jason Terry outscored opposing 2nd options in 3 of 4 series in the 2011 Playoffs - this 75% rate correlates with your stats for Pippen, and is consistent with the other lower tier sidekicks mentioned previously (the non-fmvp's and non elite 1st option producers, aka Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry).

And out of all the lower tier sidekicks that outscored opposing 2nd options 75% of the time, only Pippen did it with worst-ever westbrook efficiency - literally the worst efficiency ever (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).. This is the whole argument because 16 on 50% isn't bad production, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed - so only MJ won with a lower tier sidekick that was completely wetting the bed.

So again, since 1980 (3-pointer basketball), outscoring the opposing 2nd option 75% of the time is the standard for the lower tier of winning sidekicks during their title runs (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry), while the top tier of winning sidekicks outscore the opposing 1st option, routinely achieve elite 1st option stats, or win FMVP (Kobe, Curry, AD, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Kawhi).. So winning rings with the lower tier of sidekick (true 2nd option) is more rare and Jordan did it 6 times..And his sidekick was the only lower tier sidekick to have worst-ever westbrook efficiency.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jason Terry outscored opposing 2nd options in 3 of 4 series in the 2011 Playoffs - this 75% rate correlates with your stats for Pippen, and is consistent with the other lower tier sidekicks mentioned previously (the non-fmvp's and non elite 1st option producers, aka Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry).

And out of all the lower tier sidekicks that outscored opposing 2nd options 75% of the time, only Pippen did it with worst-ever westbrook efficiency - literally the worst efficiency ever (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).. This is the whole argument because 16 on 50% isn't bad production, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed - so only MJ won with a lower tier sidekick that was completely wetting the bed.

So again, since 1980 (3-pointer basketball), outscoring the opposing 2nd option 75% of the time is the standard for the lower tier of winning sidekicks during their title runs (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry), while the top tier of winning sidekicks outscore the opposing 1st option, routinely achieve elite 1st option stats, or win FMVP (Kobe, Curry, AD, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Kawhi).. So winning rings with the lower tier of sidekick (true 2nd option) is more rare and Jordan did it 6 times..
This fcking retard is comparing six playoff runs to a ONE year sample size :oldlol: And not surprisingly he's wrong once again, Bosh outscored Terry in the 2011 Finals, so Terry couldn't even hit the 75% mark Pippen consistently did.

[RRR3]

This fcking retard is comparing six playoff runs to a ONE year sample size :oldlol And not surprisingly he's wrong once again, Bosh outscored Terry in the 2011 Finals, so Terry couldn't even hit the 75% mark Pippen consistently did.
Just hit him with stuff about Kobe. He has no comebacks for that.

[3ba11]

This fcking retard is comparing six playoff runs to a ONE year sample size :oldlol: And not surprisingly he's wrong once again, Bosh outscored Terry in the 2011 Finals, so Terry couldn't even hit the 75% mark Pippen consistently did.


Lebron wasn't a 3rd option in 2011 - you could convince me that he was #2 behind Wade, but not #3

Btw, we're only looking at title runs, so we have to compare Terry's 2011 to Pippen's 6 runs . And if we go outside of those 6 runs, Pippen was a joke and mostly outscored in nearly every series, so I don't think you want to look at that anyway.

And I'm sure if we look up the stats, we'll see that the other lower tier sidekicks (aka non-fmvp's and non elite 1st option producers like Pau, Klay, and Rip) outscored opposing 2nd options 75% of the time just like Pippen and Terry.. But again, only Pippen was doing so with worst-ever westbrook efficiency..

So it comes down to efficiency because 16 on 50% isn't bad production, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed - so only MJ won with a lower tier sidekick that was completely wetting the bed.

[MadDog]

Jason Terry outscored opposing 2nd options in 3 of 4 series in the 2011 Playoffs - this 75% rate correlates with your stats for Pippen, and is consistent with the other lower tier sidekicks mentioned previously (the non-fmvp's and non elite 1st option producers, aka Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry).

And out of all the lower tier sidekicks that outscored opposing 2nd options 75% of the time, only Pippen did it with worst-ever westbrook efficiency - literally the worst efficiency ever (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).. This is the whole argument because 16 on 50% isn't bad production, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed - so only MJ won with a lower tier sidekick that was completely wetting the bed.

So again, since 1980 (3-pointer basketball), outscoring the opposing 2nd option 75% of the time is the standard for the lower tier of winning sidekicks during their title runs (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry), while the top tier of winning sidekicks outscore the opposing 1st option, routinely achieve elite 1st option stats, or win FMVP (Kobe, Curry, AD, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Kawhi).. So winning rings with the lower tier of sidekick (true 2nd option) is more rare and Jordan did it 6 times..And his sidekick was the only lower tier sidekick to have worst-ever westbrook efficiency.

Your numbers are incorrect. But more importantly, you're comparing 24 series to 4 lol. Its apples and oranges. You can keep harping about all-time numbers, but relative to the 90s, Pippen was one of the BEST players in the world. Top 8 in most advanced stats, while outscoring the opponents number two in 75% of his series. That's just a fact.


This fcking retard is comparing six playoff runs to a ONE year sample size :oldlol: And not surprisingly he's wrong once again, Bosh outscored Terry in the 2011 Finals, so Terry couldn't even hit the 75% mark Pippen consistently did.

I wasn't going to be as harsh, but spot on :oldlol:

[3ba11]

you're comparing 24 series to 4 lol. Its apples and oranges.





we're only looking at title runs, so we have to compare Terry's 2011 to Pippen's 6 runs .

And if we go outside of those 6 runs, Pippen was a joke and mostly outscored in nearly every series, so I don't think you want to look at that anyway.







Top 8 in most advanced stats






Nonsense

And 93' Pippen had the lowest playoff BPM, WS/48, PER and VORP of any winning sidekick, and among the worst true shooting.

So you're just making shit up






while outscoring the opponents number two in 75% of his series.





That's standard during title runs for lower tier winning sidekicks that don't produce elite 1st option stats or win FMVP (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry)..

But only Pippen did so with worst-ever westbrook efficiency, so only Pippen was wetting the bed.. 16 on 50% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed... So only Jordan won a bunch of carry-job rings

[MadDog]

we're only looking at title runs, so we have to compare Terry's 2011 to Pippen's 6 runs .

And if we go outside of those 6 runs, Pippen was a joke and mostly outscored in nearly every series, so I don't think you want to look at that anyway.

Nonsense

And 93' Pippen had the lowest playoff BPM, WS/48, PER and VORP of any winning sidekick, and among the worst true shooting.

So you're just making shit up

That's standard during title runs for lower tier winning sidekicks that don't produce elite 1st option stats or win FMVP (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip, Terry)..

But only Pippen did so with worst-ever westbrook efficiency, so only Pippen was wetting the bed.. 16 on 50% isn't horrible, but 16 on 39% is completely wetting the bed... So only Jordan won a bunch of carry-job rings

Right but Pippen averaged better numbers throughout 6 titles runs. Unlike Terry, Pippen outscored more number 2s. 18 more times to be exact lol. You're also cherry-picking again by singling out 93. In 96, Pippen was top 3 in VORP and BPM and top 10 in WS48. So what now? :confusedshrug: You're either remedial or purposefully ignoring the data. Stick with the averages. From 91-93 and 96-98, Pippen's averages were that of a top 8 player. Again, you don't have to accept them BUT those are the facts.

75% of a playoff run isn't the standard. If that were true, then why did Pippen do it 18 more times? Going by your warped criteria, it was Pippen who set the standard.

[3ba11]

Pippen averaged better numbers than Terry throughout 6 titles runs.





^^^ Nonsense


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk






Unlike Terry, Pippen outscored more number 2s.





No, he didn't - Pippen was outscored by #2's in half the series of his career - we would need to look up each guy's entire career and see who was outscored by #2's more

but since we already know that Pippen was outscored in half the series in his career (because I looked it up), Terry couldn't be too far behind that, and could easily be ahead..






75% of a playoff run isn't the standard. If that were true, then why did Pippen do it 18 more times?





Go back to school and learn what a percentage is - Pippen outscored opposing 2nd options during title runs about 3 in 4 times (75%), just like other lower tier sidekicks that never won fmvp or averaged elite 1st option stats (Klay, Pippen, Terry, Pau, Rip).






In 96 playoffs, Pippen was top 3 in VORP and BPM and top 10 in WS48. So what now? :

Pippen's averages were that of a top 8 player.





VORP is a useless playoff metric because it's based on games played and minutes, so it favors players that get carried to deep runs like Pippen.

And top 10 in WS/48 isn't a good thing - if you aren't top 3 in a category in the playoffs, it means nothing because there's far less players in the playoffs.. Top 10 means he finished behind several bums.. btw, 94' Pippen finished behind Kukoc in playoff BPM and also 3 teammates in WS/48.

And in the regular season, Pippen wasn't top 8 in impact stats - that's ridiculous... :oldlol:...

Otoh, Wade was top 5 in everything in 2012 (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM) - so older Wade as 2nd option > peak Pippen at 1st option in 94'

[MadDog]

^^^ Nonsense

PLAYOFFS
11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4

CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

No, he didn't - Pippen was outscored by #2's in half the series of his career - we would need to look up each guy's entire career and see who was outscored by #2's more

but since we already know that Pippen was outscored in half the series in his career (because I looked it up), Terry couldn't be too far behind that, and could easily be ahead..

You’re moving goalposts though. The original argument was Pippen averaging better numbers (in 91, 92, and 96-98, Pippen’s advanced numbers OVERALL beat Terry’s). Not Jordan's bigger "statistical gap" than Dirk's. Are you like incapable of being consistent? lol

Yes, Pippen outscored number 2s in 75% of Chicago’s series. That’s the argument and that is what counts here. Pippen also outscored Terry in 4 of those 6 playoff runs you mentioned. :oldlol:


Go back to school and learn what a percentage is - Pippen outscored opposing 2nd options during title runs about 3 in 4 times (75%), just like other lower tier sidekicks that never won fmvp or averaged elite 1st option stats (Klay, Pippen, Terry, Pau, Rip).

You’re either missing the point, or don’t have the withal to comprehend what’s being said. We know that for 75% of Chicago’s series, Pippen > every number 2. I’m the one who pointed that out to you. But the kicker is Pippen did it 19 times. You said Terry did it, but last time I checked, 19 series was greater than 4.


VORP is a useless playoff metric because it's based on games played and minutes, so it favors players that get carried to deep runs like Pippen.

Yet, you just used VORP in the stats above. Apparently it’s a GREAT measure and one you follow closely.


And top 10 in WS/48 isn't a good thing - if you aren't top 3 in a category in the playoffs, it means nothing because there's far less players in the playoffs.. To 10 means he finished behind several bums.

No, it’s a GREAT thing. Top 10 in WS/48 is impressive when you’re the sidekick, and your name is among other go-to players. Pippen’s WS48 that year were akin to a lead-dog. :confusedshrug:

[outofstomach]

^^^ Nonsense


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9...........1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2.......... 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187...... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1.......... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3.......... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1.......... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7.......... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk






No, he didn't - Pippen was outscored by #2's in half the series of his career - we would need to look up each guy's entire career and see who was outscored by #2's more

but since we already know that Pippen was outscored in half the series in his career (because I looked it up), Terry couldn't be too far behind that, and could easily be ahead..






Go back to school and learn what a percentage is - Pippen outscored opposing 2nd options during title runs about 3 in 4 times (75%), just like other lower tier sidekicks that never won fmvp or averaged elite 1st option stats (Klay, Pippen, Terry, Pau, Rip).






VORP is a useless playoff metric because it's based on games played and minutes, so it favors players that get carried to deep runs like Pippen.

And top 10 in WS/48 isn't a good thing - if you aren't top 3 in a category in the playoffs, it means nothing because there's far less players in the playoffs.. Top 10 means he finished behind several bums.. btw, 94' Pippen finished behind Kukoc in playoff BPM and also 3 teammates in WS/48.

And in the regular season, Pippen wasn't top 8 in impact stats - that's ridiculous... :oldlol:...

Otoh, Wade was top 5 in everything in 2012 (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM) - so older Wade as 2nd option > peak Pippen at 1st option in 94'
:applause: