Why is DIRK ranked higher than KG?

[Dagoods]

KG is quite possibly the most complete/versatile big man of all-time but for some reason he doesn't get the credit he deserves.

He's probably the best defensive PF of all-time, for sure the most versatile.
Superb post game and his midrange shooting skills enabled him to stretch the floor for his teams.

He was more complete than the likes of Malone, Barkley, and Dirk but for some reason both Dirk and Malone are ranked higher than he is.


GARNETT won 1 Ring, 1 MVP and one DPOY and DIRK managed to win 1 Ring, 1 MVP, 1 FMVP. Is Dirk ranked higher because he defeated LeBron's Super Team? That's was an amazing achievement of course but what about the total package?

Why is there a double-standard?

SHAQ won 4 rings, 1 MVP, and 3 FMVPs but nobody ranks him ahead of WILT who only won 2 Rings, 4 MVPs, and one Final MVP. And do you monkeys know why? Because WILT lead the league in assists, and 7 scoring titles, and 11 rebounding titles respectively. So, WILT gets the nod over Shaq because he was clearly more versatile.

GARNETT is way more versatile than DIRK but NOPE, Dirk for the most part is always ranked higher. Why is that?

WHAT SAY YOU?
Your thoughts...your thoughts...

[SATAN]

Dirk would have been remembered as Tom Chambers 2.0 if Wade let LeBron lead Miami in that series.

[Stephonit]

There is the idea of a player and then there is the reality.

The idea of KG is very appealing but the reality if I am not mistaken is that Dirk thumped him head-to-head. KG's numbers also sank significantly during the playoffs while Dirk's were more resilient.

Too many times the idea of a player impresses people more than it should.

[3ba11]

great offensive players that play bad defense are frequently on #1 defensive teams because GM's can surround their offensive prowess with cheap defenders...

Otoh, lesser offensive players like KG require expensive offensive players to surround him..

So KG was a better defender, but individual defense doesn't matter much in a comparison of 2 players - it simply comes back to offense, and Dirk was all-time level in that area

[RRR3]

Dirk would have been remembered as Tom Chambers 2.0 if LeBron didnt choke in that series.
Fixed

[Nowitness]

Because in the post-season Dirk was a far better performer.

KG has less 30 point playoff games than Blake Griffin. Those 'scrubs' he played for in Minnesota 3 times scored more points in a playoff game than KG ever could.

Versatility doesn't win, Duncan proved that. Dominating a couple things and having role players fill in the gaps wins. KG being neither a dominant inside defender until 2008, nor a scorer capable of going above his average is the reason why he basically had 2 successful post-seasons, whilst Dirk took teams full of role players deep in the playoffs often.

[Phoenix]

Because we have this thing where we try to add up the totality of a players skills to arrive at a simplistic conclusion that player A> player B. KG was a more complete player if you want to bullet point skill for skill, but one could argue that what Dirk did was more unique for the time ( a 7 foot elite shooter from mid-range and distance), harder to defend and was easier to build yearly contenders around.

Dirk was always fielding high level offenses, even after Nash left. We saw what KG needed to be successful, good-great perimeter players who could take alot of the offensive pressure off in high leverage moments ( Cassell, Sprewell, Pierce, Allen), and he needed competent defensive talent around him that he could leverage with his own defensive skills and leadership. Dirk basically needed a competent PG( pre-peak Nash), or some defensive role players( like a Tyson Chandler and post prime Matrix) and he was getting you 50 wins a season bare minimum and contending more often than not. KG isn't getting to the finals in 2006 with Josh Howard as his running mate. He certainly isn't taking Dallas to the finals ( let alone win) in 2011 because he simply wasn't potent enough offensively ( either in his peak and especially by 2011) to carry a team built like that championship Mavericks squad.

[dankok8]

KG is ranked higher all time on most lists including mine... but yes Dirk fits the mold of a #1 offensive option better than Garnett does which of course doesn't in any way make him a better player. And for all the talk about sustained team success Dirk only made 2 finals and 3 conference finals in his entire career. Until 2011 he was often referred to as a choker.

[Phoenix]

KG is ranked higher all time on most lists including mine... but yes Dirk fits the mold of a #1 offensive option better than Garnett does which of course doesn't in any way make him a better player. And for all the talk about sustained team success Dirk only made 2 finals and 3 conference finals in his entire career. Until 2011 he was often referred to as a choker.

KG wasn't even getting out of the first round before 04, then missed the playoffs for a few years before heading to Boston, and played in two finals. He doesnt exactly have a stellar playoff record himself outside of that 08-12 Celtic run.

[ArbitraryWater]

Playoffs

[dankok8]

KG wasn't even getting out of the first round before 04, then missed the playoffs for a few years before heading to Boston, and played in two finals. He doesnt exactly have a stellar playoff record himself outside of that 08-12 Celtic run.

He doesn't have a good playoff record but he played on putrid casts in Minnesota. Meanwhile Dirk had Nash/Finley and then a really deep and well constructed team around him with Terry/Howard/Stack/Harris. And more importantly, Dallas' core remained largely intact whereas Minnesota had a lot of roster turnover.

Anyways the way I see it...

KG's impact stats are much better than Dirk's. Even just offensively, the gap in Dirk's favor isn't big when you consider how good of a playmaker and offensive rebounder KG was. KG really is in like the 99th percentile in just about every basketball ability except iso scoring. KG may well be the best ball handler, passer, rebounder and defender of any PF ever. Dallas' defenses weren't good except when they had Chandler and the big reason was Dirk's inability to protect the paint.

[Phoenix]

He doesn't have a good playoff record but he played on putrid casts in Minnesota. Meanwhile Dirk had Nash/Finley and then a really deep and well constructed team around him with Terry/Howard/Stack/Harris. And more importantly, Dallas' core remained largely intact whereas Minnesota had a lot of roster turnover.

Anyways the way I see it...

KG's impact stats are much better than Dirk's. Even just offensively, the gap in Dirk's favor isn't big when you consider how good of a playmaker and offensive rebounder KG was. KG really is in like the 99th percentile in just about every basketball ability except iso scoring. KG may well be the best ball handler, passer, rebounder and defender of any PF ever. Dallas' defenses weren't good except when they had Chandler and the big reason was Dirk's inability to protect the paint.

Just the list of players you named for Dirk showed that Dallas didn't maintain their core. His early 2000s, mid 2000s, and late 2000s/early 2010s rosters were all pretty different. He was the one constant keeping the team afloat despite the roster turnovers.

KG vs Dirk is an old as dirt argument at this point. For me, Dirk was the better player to have as your 'best' player and fill in the blanks. KG had a more well-rounded game but to me he works best as a #2 option especially in terms of anchoring the offense. Wherever you rank one the other should be right under them.

[dankok8]

Just the list of players you named for Dirk showed that Dallas didn't maintain their core. His early 2000s, mid 2000s, and late 2000s/early 2010s rosters were all pretty different. He was the one constant keeping the team afloat despite the roster turnovers.

KG vs Dirk is an old as dirt argument at this point. For me, Dirk was the better player to have as your 'best' player and fill in the blanks. KG had a more well-rounded game but to me he works best as a #2 option especially in terms of anchoring the offense. Wherever you rank one the other should be right under them.

Dirk had Nash for 6 straight seasons, Finley for 8 straight seasons, and Terry for 8 straight seasons...

KG was clearly the best player on the 2008 Celtics. Neck and neck with Pierce offensively and miles ahead defensively.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk had Nash for 6 straight seasons, Finley for 8 straight seasons, and Terry for 8 straight seasons...

KG was clearly the best player on the 2008 Celtics. Neck and neck with Pierce offensively and miles ahead defensively.

thats not saying anything.

and Nash wasnt a factor for many of those seasons.

[Phoenix]

Dirk had Nash for 6 straight seasons, Finley for 8 straight seasons, and Terry for 8 straight seasons...

KG was clearly the best player on the 2008 Celtics. Neck and neck with Pierce offensively and miles ahead defensively.

What are you defining as a core? Can we agree on that first?

KG was never not the best player on his team. That's not what is being argued. I'm saying he needed offensive pieces capable of performing in high leverage moments. KG was never the greatest clutch go to scorer which is expressly why his only team success came when he had guys like Cassell, Pierce and Allen. Dirk was a 7 foot jumpshooter who could anchor offensively and created tons of mismatches. Its much easier to find a Tyson Chandler, someone who does the dirty work and not need to be part of the offense, than a Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

[3ba11]

KG needed offensive pieces capable of performing in high leverage moments. KG was never the greatest clutch go to scorer which is expressly why his only team success came when he had guys like Cassell, Pierce and Allen. Dirk was a 7 foot jumpshooter who could anchor offensively and created tons of mismatches. Its much easier to find a Tyson Chandler, someone who does the dirty work and not need to be part of the offense, than a Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.





Boom baby

that's why individual defense doesn't matter when comparing 2 great players... it's actually easier to have a great defensive team with an offensive anchor like Dirk that allows GM's to find cheap defenders to surround him with.. whereas weaker scorers like KG need expensive offensive juggernauts around him like Allen and Pierce.

that's why curry, bird, and kyrie have been on #1 defensive teams and many other lesser defenders have too.. it's standard for an offensive anchor because it's so easy to find cheap defenders to surround them with, rather than find expensive offensive talents to surround a guy like KG

[BigShotBob]

You can literally go on youtube and watch Dirk eviscerate KG in the playoffs. Where did that legendary defense go?

[SaintzFury13]

Dirk would have been remembered as Tom Chambers 2.0 if Wade let LeBron lead Miami in that series.

It wouldn't have mattered who was leading Miami in that series. LeBron's jumper was gone and the defensive scheme from Dallas was elite. And not to mention, Wade leading the team isn't an excuse for LeBron's poor defense all series long.

[warriorfan]

All the points KG saved on defense make up for the scoring gap for most players he gets compared too.

[dankok8]

What are you defining as a core? Can we agree on that first?

KG was never not the best player on his team. That's not what is being argued. I'm saying he needed offensive pieces capable of performing in high leverage moments. KG was never the greatest clutch go to scorer which is expressly why his only team success came when he had guys like Cassell, Pierce and Allen. Dirk was a 7 foot jumpshooter who could anchor offensively and created tons of mismatches. Its much easier to find a Tyson Chandler, someone who does the dirty work and not need to be part of the offense, than a Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

KG needed offensive help a lot than Dirk needed defensive help. Garnett's Wolves casts simply weren't good enough to win with. No player in history could win with those. The one year in 2004 when the team was reasonably good Cassell got hurt in the Lakers series.

[tpols]

Why?

Dirk won with less. Imagine KG winning a title with Jason Terry as his sidekick out west. He wouldn't even be able to do that out east. :lol

[tpols]

You can literally go on youtube and watch Dirk eviscerate KG in the playoffs. Where did that legendary defense go?

What's the saying?

Great offense beats good defense or whatever. KG just got rained on. Dirk lit him up with the jumper and that was baby Dirk.


https://youtu.be/YF_ehaEogEY

[dankok8]

Why?

Dirk won with less. Imagine KG winning a title with Jason Terry as his sidekick out west. He wouldn't even be able to do that out east. :lol

A lot of stars had to align for that Dallas title to happen. It's quite possibly the flukiest result in NBA history...

[Gohan]

You're remembered as rrr3/axe.

Dont ever compare rr3 to axe again. Axe is actually a good poster

[Full Court]

Those two are close enough that it's not egregious to rank either one over the other.

[tpols]

A lot of stars had to align for that Dallas title to happen. It's quite possibly the flukiest result in NBA history...

Dirk was the common theme in it all.

He obliterated LeBron and Wade combined in crunch time (and overall). Also outplayed Durant and Kobe in previous rounds by a landslide. That was no fluke... just destiny. Dirk was a hair away from winning 2006 with just Jet as well.

That ain't a fluke.

[dankok8]

Dirk was the common theme in it all.

He obliterated LeBron and Wade combined in crunch time (and overall). Also outplayed Durant and Kobe in previous rounds by a landslide. That was no fluke... just destiny. Dirk was a hair away from winning 2006 with just Jet as well.

That ain't a fluke.

Dirk had a pretty average finals in 2011 and a bad one in 2006. The Lakers that year imploded, the Thunder were too young and the Heat... well Lebron happened. Lebron plays average and Heat win in 5 or 6 games and Dirk retiress ringless.

[tpols]

Dirk had a pretty average finals in 2011 and a bad one in 2006. The Lakers that year imploded, the Thunder were too young and the Heat... well Lebron happened. Lebron plays average and Heat win in 5 or 6 games and Dirk retiress ringless.

That's a silly thing to say though. Dirk destroyed LeBron while having the whole heat defense keyed in on him. And you call that a fluke? And then the excuses for Durant and Kobe...

You just wrote a book of excuses at every turn. An excuse parlay lol... should've put your money up.

[dankok8]

That's a silly thing to say though. Dirk destroyed LeBron while having the whole heat defense keyed in on him. And you call that a fluke? And then the excuses for Durant and Kobe...

You just wrote a book of excuses at every turn. An excuse parlay lol... should've put your money up.

Ok whatever... Lebron and probably Kobe as well played the worst series of their careers. I didn't say Dirk didn't deserve it but he got crazy lucky. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

[Iverson3]

Ok whatever... Lebron and probably Kobe as well played the worst series of their careers. I didn't say Dirk didn't deserve it but he got crazy lucky. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

That's why Dallas never repeats in 2012.

[Sulico]

Ok whatever... Lebron and probably Kobe as well played the worst series of their careers. I didn't say Dirk didn't deserve it but he got crazy lucky. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

What a terrible post.

Any win in any sport can be attributed to luck by this crazy logic.

Medvedev just got lucky Djokovic didn't play better couple of weeks ago.

France got extremely lucky when they won world cup because Croatia didn't play better.

And so on.

[Phoenix]

KG needed offensive help a lot than Dirk needed defensive help. Garnett's Wolves casts simply weren't good enough to win with. No player in history could win with those. The one year in 2004 when the team was reasonably good Cassell got hurt in the Lakers series.

How do you figure that? For Dirks 2011 chip he was the only elite scorer on his team. For Garnetts chip he had Allen and Pierce. Garnett isnt taking the 2011 Mavs to the finals. Plus as I said before, when you have someone with Dirks unique( at the time) scoring skillset and clutchness it's much easier filling in the blanks with role players who can defend and rebound than finding the right mix of scorers that all need their ego soothed.

We're having two discussions here. The better player in terms of overall two-way ability and the better lead player for a chip. The answer doesnt have to be the same person and in this case I don't think it is.

[TheGoatest]

He shouldn't be.

KG should be ranked higher than Dirk. And higher than Barkley and Malone as well.

[ArbitraryWater]

What a terrible post.

Any win in any sport can be attributed to luck by this crazy logic.

Medvedev just got lucky Djokovic didn't play better couple of weeks ago.

France got extremely lucky when they won world cup because Croatia didn't play better.

And so on.

Well put.

[Rysio]

Better shooter better scorer also proved he can win a title as clear cut best player on his team.

[Thenameless]

Dirk would have been remembered as Tom Chambers 2.0 if Wade let LeBron lead Miami in that series.

Well, really what is any player without his Championships then? Take away Jordan's 6 and Russell's 11 and Lebron's 4, and none of these guys would be ranked so highly.

[TheGoatest]

Better shooter better scorer also proved he can win a title as clear cut best player on his team.

Congratulations. You just posted literally the only two things in basketball that Dirk was better at than KG. Every other aspect of basketball KG was superior at.
And Garnett was clear cut best player on his team in 2007-08.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The Dirk/KG debate is the equivalent to the Barkley/Malone debate.

It just depends on what kind of player you want for your team, and the style of play you like to watch.

(And Good God, I remember arguing with AbsolutPrince on the old ezboard about this debate.)

[dankok8]

How do you figure that? For Dirks 2011 chip he was the only elite scorer on his team. For Garnetts chip he had Allen and Pierce. Garnett isnt taking the 2011 Mavs to the finals. Plus as I said before, when you have someone with Dirks unique( at the time) scoring skillset and clutchness it's much easier filling in the blanks with role players who can defend and rebound than finding the right mix of scorers that all need their ego soothed.

We're having two discussions here. The better player in terms of overall two-way ability and the better lead player for a chip. The answer doesnt have to be the same person and in this case I don't think it is.

Give Garnett circa 2003 or 2004 Nash and Finley and he's winning a chip. That version of Garnett was comfortably better than any version of Dirk.

The whole "finding the right mix of scorers" point is moot because it's not like KG had stacked casts and couldn't get it done. His Minnesota teams weren't good enough. To have any semblance of objective argument, that has to be acknowledged. Nobody is winning titles with those Wolves teams.

I don't think it's easier to fill the blanks with Dirk. Finding elite defensive bigs like Chandler is tough. They are among the most valuable assets in basketball.

Garnett is the better lead player for a chip. He just doesn't "lead" the same way but he's simply more valuable to have on your team.

[Phoenix]

Give Garnett circa 2003 or 2004 Nash and Finley and he's winning a chip. That version of Garnett was comfortably better than any version of Dirk.

The whole "finding the right mix of scorers" point is moot because it's not like KG had stacked casts and couldn't get it done. His Minnesota teams weren't good enough. To have any semblance of objective argument, that has to be acknowledged. Nobody is winning titles with those Wolves teams.

I don't think it's easier to fill the blanks with Dirk. Finding elite defensive bigs like Chandler is tough. They are among the most valuable assets in basketball.

Garnett is the better lead player for a chip. He just doesn't "lead" the same way but he's simply more valuable to have on your team.

No version of Garnett takes Dirks 2011 squad to the finals. And no, I doubt Garnett with Nash/Finley beats either the Lakers or Spurs in the west either of those years. We can run in circles drawing up these scenarios or just accept that we have our preferences where the the two are concerned, acknowledge they needed different things to win, and people will rank one higher than the other for their own reasons, like everyone else.

[Kobe_Bryant]

KG #20
Dirk #22

the people have spoken

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

[Phoenix]

Meanwhile...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105681/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-40-11%3fplatform=amp

Dirk 19
KG 20

* just to be fair, Bleacher has KG at 16 and Dirk 17 *

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed.amp.html

All this says is that its extremely arguable. There's no its 'easily KG' or 'its obviously Dirk' here.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Meanwhile...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105681/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-40-11%3fplatform=amp

Dirk 19
KG 20

* just to be fair, Bleacher has KG at 16 and Dirk 17 *

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed.amp.html

All this says is that its extremely arguable. There's no its 'easily KG' or 'its obviously Dirk' here.

Sorry my man but thats some ESPN shit. They were ranking me 12th all time back in the day. Can't take those clowns seriously. I only go by consensus opinions of fans, my fellow players and piers. Never trust the media. They're selling a story. They go out of their way to create one out of nothing to get clicks. Those boys owe me some royalty checks for using my name to sell their product.

[Phoenix]

Sorry my man but thats some ESPN shit. They were ranking me 12th all time back in the day. Can't take those clowns seriously. I only go by consensus opinions of fans, my fellow players and piers. Never trust the media. They're selling a story. They go out of their way to create one out of nothing to get clicks. Those boys owe me some royalty checks for using my name to sell their product.

There's no consensus though. Some lists rank KG higher, others Dirk.