MJ average 37ppg a night in 86-87

[2ball]

And only made 12- 3-pointers all season. MJ didn’t need 3 pointers to dominate the league. MJ won the toughest way possible but also the most thorough way possible.

[TheGoatest]

That's an amazing feat. Surely it must've put his team at a higher seed than a team whose best player was a rookie Chuck Person. Right?

[Dr. Lemon]

In the late 80s/early 90s, it was easy without zone defense and true double-teams for Jordan to dominate without any semblance of a 3-point jump shot.

In 2021, that lack of any 3-point ability whatsoever would completely cripple his output.

[8Ball]

And only made 12- 3-pointers all season. MJ didn’t need 3 pointers to dominate the league. MJ won the toughest way possible but also the most thorough way possible.

Jordan Ball results in: 1986-87 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats Record: 40-42, Finished 5th in NBA Central Division

[ELITEpower23]

That's an amazing feat. Surely it must've put his team at a higher seed than a team whose best player was a rookie Chuck Person. Right?

Annnnnnd


In the late 80s/early 90s, it was easy without zone defense and true double-teams for Jordan to dominate without any semblance of a 3-point jump shot.

In 2021, that lack of any 3-point ability whatsoever would completely cripple his output.

We're


Jordan Ball results in: 1986-87 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats Record: 40-42, Finished 5th in NBA Central Division



DONE

:hammertime:

[2ball]

Jordan Ball results in: 1986-87 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats Record: 40-42, Finished 5th in NBA Central Division

Everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for at least half their rings (they needed a 1b) - only Jordan won a bunch of rings with true 2nd option, so he's the only guy that faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career (kenny smith talks about this fact here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s))..

Rings with 2nd option > rings with 1b's, and Jordan has 6 rings with a true 2nd option, or 4 more than anyone else

Ultimately, 2nd option rings require the 1st option to face maximum defensive attention, which gives Jordan's stats and rings maximum quality.. Jordan infact had the least star help of any top 10 player, and led the only 2-star dynasty (no super-team needed)... And pippen's resume/accolades were inflated by getting dynasty credit without having to share the spotlight with 3rd and 4th stars like other dynasties.

[3ba11]

Jordan Ball results in: 1986-87 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats Record: 40-42, Finished 5th in NBA Central Division


^^^ 87' Jordan won 40 games with no help, while 05' Lebron won 40 with the East all-star center

88' Jordan made the 2nd Round with an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer, while 06' Lebron needed the East all-star center alongside a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY - Jordan won 6 chips with that kind of help.

Ultimately - unlike Jordan, Lebron failed to carry lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19' - he always needed several years to develop his team into a favored, high seed before entering the 06' or 20' Playoffs, so he never had to carry 8 seeds like MJ.. Again, MJ carried lottery teams to 8 seeds, while Lebron couldn't do that and had to wait until he had favored, high seeds.

[AussieSteve]

^^^ 87' Jordan won 40 games with no help, while 05' Lebron won 40 with the East all-star center

88' Jordan made the 2nd Round with an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer, while 06' Lebron needed the East all-star center alongside a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY - Jordan won 6 chips with that kind of help.

Ultimately - unlike Jordan, Lebron failed to carry lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19' - he always needed several years to develop his team into a favored, high seed before entering the 06' or 20' Playoffs, so he never had to carry 8 seeds like MJ.. Again, MJ carried lottery teams to 8 seeds, while Lebron couldn't do that and had to wait until he had favored, high seeds.



Pippen had the 95 Bulls on a 45 win pace pre MJ. How world you compare Pippen's 95 cast to Jordan's 87 cast?

[3ba11]

Pippen had the 95 Bulls on a 45 win pace pre MJ. How world you compare Pippen's 95 cast to Jordan's 87 cast?


out of the 87' cast and 95' cast, Kukoc and Oakley have equal impact and it's all petty role players after that for both teams.

So the supporting talent was similar, but the brand of ball/strategy/experience was vastly different - the 87' Bulls were babies that were starting over after MJ's injury, while the 95' Bulls were a 3-peat dynasty that Pippen was destroying in less than 2 years... his experiment as 1st option failed so MJ retured to restore a borderline lottery team to 3-peat status... You can't make this shit up

[8Ball]

Pippen won a lot more games in 1994 than Jordan did in 1987 with a worse cast.

[3ba11]

Pippen won a lot more games in 1994 than Jordan did in 1987 with a worse cast.


Yes, the supporting talent was the similar, so Pippen won more games due to superior strategy, brand of ball and experience honed from 3-peating..

And you can see how massive the strategy component is because Pippen's 22/5 won 55 games, while Jordan's 37/5 won 40 because Pippen was using a superior strategy honed from 3-peating - so the strategy/brand of ball is a bigger factor than talent on those teams

And who hit the shot in 89' to make the Bulls championship contenders rather than rebuild 1st Round losers? Jordan.

[8Ball]

^^^ 87' Jordan won 40 games with no help, while 05' Lebron won 40 with the East all-star center

88' Jordan made the 2nd Round with an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer, while 06' Lebron needed the East all-star center alongside a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY - Jordan won 6 chips with that kind of help.

Ultimately - unlike Jordan, Lebron failed to carry lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19' - he always needed several years to develop his team into a favored, high seed before entering the 06' or 20' Playoffs, so he never had to carry 8 seeds like MJ.. Again, MJ carried lottery teams to 8 seeds, while Lebron couldn't do that and had to wait until he had favored, high seeds.



LeBron was 20 at the start of 2004 season.

Jordan was 24 in 1987 season.

At 24 LeBron was already making finals appearances.

I never lose any arguments.

[8Ball]

Yes, the supporting talent was the similar, so Pippen won more games due to superior strategy, brand of ball and experience honed from 3-peating..

And you can see how massive the strategy component is because Pippen's 22/5 won 55 games, while Jordan's 37/5 won 40 because Pippen was using a superior strategy honed from 3-peating - so the strategy/brand of ball is a bigger factor than talent on those teams

Pippen Ball is what Jordan needs to advance in the playoffs or even have a winning record. Hence 1-9.


Thread Cliffs:

Pippen won a lot more games in 1994 than Jordan did in 1987 with a worse cast.

[3ba11]

Pippen Ball is what Jordan needs to advance in the playoffs or even have a winning record. Hence 1-9.


Thread Cliffs:

Pippen won a lot more games in 1994 than Jordan did in 1987 with a worse cast.


Pippen had a 3-peat team high seed in 94', while Jordan had a lottery team - a literal lottery team (30 wins in 86' when he was hurt)

[beasted]

Everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for at least half their rings (they needed a 1b) - only Jordan won a bunch of rings with true 2nd option, so he's the only guy that faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career (kenny smith talks about this fact here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s))..

Rings with 2nd option > rings with 1b's, and Jordan has 6 rings with a true 2nd option, or 4 more than anyone else

Ultimately, 2nd option rings require the 1st option to face maximum defensive attention, which gives Jordan's stats and rings maximum quality.. Jordan infact had the least star help of any top 10 player, and led the only 2-star dynasty (no super-team needed)... And pippen's resume/accolades were inflated by getting dynasty credit without having to share the spotlight with 3rd and 4th stars like other dynasties.

Who won 2 titles without a 1B? I hope you didn't mean Hakeem. Drexler was definitely a 1B IMO. Look up his Finals stats.

[3ba11]

Pippen Ball is what Jordan needs to advance in the playoffs or even have a winning record. Hence 1-9.


Thread Cliffs:

Pippen won a lot more games in 1994 than Jordan did in 1987 with a worse cast.


the 94' Bulls were defending 3-peat champs, so they used better strategy/experience than the 87' Bulls, while also having more sheer talent because they added arguably their best player in Kukoc - he was possibly better than both Pippen and Grant due to his modern shooting style and infact led those Bulls in playoff BPM, while being the team's primary shooter and also the "closer" (kukoc was 1st option closer, while paxson was #2 and horace was #3.. pippen wasn't considered to close).

[8Ball]

the 94' Bulls were defending 3-peat champs, so they used better strategy/experience than the 87' Bulls, while also having more sheer talent because they added arguably their best player in Kukoc - he was possibly better than both Pippen and Grant due to his modern shooting style and infact led those Bulls in playoff BPM, while being the team's primary shooter and also the "closer" (kukoc was 1st option closer, while paxson was #2 and horace was #3.. pippen wasn't considered to close).

94 Bulls used Pippen Ball - That's the strategy.

[3ba11]

94 Bulls used Pippen Ball - That's the strategy.


22/5

so he was still just a medium playmaker at his peak.. the SF version of Larry Hughes..

completely carried to 6 titles and then inflated by this winning spotlight to undeserved accolade


Think about it.. He's about to make the top 75 list, which is reserved for goat performances like 2021 giannis or 2011 Dirk or 2019 Kawhi, let alone Kobe, Lebron or KD... How the f*ck does Pippen belong?.. :biggums:


He's simply inflated by the winning spotlight and new fans not knowing anything and just saying "hurrr durrr 6 rings"

[SaintzFury13]

88' Jordan made the 2nd Round with an 8 ppg rookie benchwarmer, while 06' Lebron needed the East all-star center alongside a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY - Jordan won 6 chips with that kind of help.

You didn't watch LeBron James play during his first stint with the Cavs. This was confirmed when you revealed to us that you didn't even watch the Cavs/Magic playoff series. You don't know what kind of help LeBron had in his first stint with Cleveland. But I'll give you a hint: It doesn't come close to comparing with what MJ had in his six championship wins.

[AussieSteve]

out of the 87' cast and 95' cast, Kukoc and Oakley have equal impact and it's all petty role players after that for both teams.

So the supporting talent was similar, but the brand of ball/strategy/experience was vastly different - the 87' Bulls were babies that were starting over after MJ's injury, while the 95' Bulls were a 3-peat dynasty that Pippen was destroying in less than 2 years... his experiment as 1st option failed so MJ retured to restore a borderline lottery team to 3-peat status... You can't make this shit up

Only BJ was on that 3peat team. So that narrative is obviously false.

Unless it was Pippen and/or BJ that created the 3peat culture?

In any event, what your saying is that Pippen won more than Jordan with a similar cast. Got it.

[Axe]

No need to fool us, op. ;)

[97 bulls]

Only BJ was on that 3peat team. So that narrative is obviously false.

Unless it was Pippen and/or BJ that created the 3peat culture?

In any event, what your saying is that Pippen won more than Jordan with a similar cast. Got it.

I was just about to say this. 3ball will never respond to this.

[clipps]

Who won 2 titles without a 1B? I hope you didn't mean Hakeem. Drexler was definitely a 1B IMO. Look up his Finals stats.

Shut the **** up, retard.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Jordan Ball results in: 1986-87 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats Record: 40-42, Finished 5th in NBA Central Division

Reminds me of my 2006 season. I supposed you think being alone and losing is bad huh. We all do it. Me with Kwame, MJ with Corzine and Bron with Mcgee. I think we all needed more help. But if you wanna say we all sucked then go ahead but I'm sure you must be a fan of one of us. Use your brain white boy.

[AussieSteve]

Only BJ was on that 3peat team. So that narrative is obviously false.

Unless it was Pippen and/or BJ that created the 3peat culture?

In any event, what your saying is that Pippen won more than Jordan with a similar cast. Got it.

@3ball

Don't prove 97 bulls right. Respond. Have some integrity for once and acknowledge that you have just conceded that, given a similar cast, Pippen won more than Jordan ever did (given than 40-42 was Jordan's BEST record without Pippen).

Explain yourself.

[3ba11]

@3ball

Don't prove 97 bulls right. Respond. Have some integrity for once and acknowledge that you have just conceded that, given a similar cast, Pippen won more than Jordan ever did (given than 40-42 was Jordan's BEST record without Pippen).

Explain yourself.


Saying that:


"The triangle never won titles before Jordan"

is different than:


"The triangle never won games before Jordan"



Did you notice the difference?... The triangle has always won games when run well by veterans, so 50 wins is expected and standard - Pippen proved this by winning 50 games with just 22 ppg and 5 apg.

But the offense is otherwise garbage on the championship level because it needs bailouts throughout the game, which no one can do because the offense doesn't allow ball-domination - so the offense never won anything for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it required (MJ/Kobe), who invented the quick-iso footwork needed to score without ball-domination.

This kind of pure basketball achievement is why Jordan is goat - he invented the quick-iso footwork that was needed to win in an otherwise failing offense, and this branch of skills ("mid-range game") has been adopted by every clutch player since to win titles (Dirk, Kobe, Kawhi, KD, Pierce, nearly Booker).

Ultimately, the good brand of ball (triangle) won 55 games despite meager production from the 1st option - another example of team strategy/brand of ball resulting in more wins, see the 1988 season, when Doug Collins took over as coach - he was a good coach and a big upgrade.. So the Bulls won 50 games with nothing