lebron only made playoffs with HIGH SEEDS (good casts relative to conference)

[3ba11]

And we know Lebron's cast was good relative to it's Eastern competition because Arenas/Hughes led the 05' Wizards to the 2nd Round, but then Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas and beat the Wizards in the 06' 1st Round.

People forget that the 04' Cavs had zero all-stars, while the 05' Cavs had 2... That's big improvement... Then the 06' Cavs added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY, which allowed them to enter the playoffs as a favored, high seed over the Wizards team that they robbed Hughes from

So again, Lebron never carried bums because he never HAD bums - he always had high seeds, while his low seeds/bad teams missed playoffs - so Lebron never had to carry bad teams in the playoffs like MJ or other stars

Again, the times Lebron had bums, he missed the playoffs - specifically, he failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04/05/19 and needed several years to develop his team into a high seed before entering the 06' and 20' Playoffs.

This matters because most great players dragged lottery teams to low seeds except Lebron, who only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and therefore never "carried bums" or had bad teams/low seeds in the playoffs like young MJ.

[Vino24]

MJ only made the finals with Pippen (stacked cast)

[3ba11]

MJ only made the finals with Pippen (stacked cast)


A 2nd star wasn't needed to win the 00's East because Lebron, Dwight, Kidd, and Iverson won the conference as 1-star teams

Then Jimmy Butler and Kawhi won the conference, so Lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted a trend of 1-star teams winning the conference.. Of course, Lebron still had a strong 2-star team in 2018 (best 2nd option in conference).

Ultimately, Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight until the "decision" to form super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.. Infact, the 00's East is the only conference in history that was routinely won by 1-star teams, yet this is the conference that Lebron formed super-teams in - so his resume is the DEFINITION of manufactured

[tontoz]

Not following the logic here. Getting home court in the first round doesn't necessarily mean he had a good supporting cast. It can also mean that the conference was weak and that he was really good.

[SouBeachTalents]

In nature, iron, copper, lead, nickel and other metals are found in impure states called ores, often oxidized and mixed in with silicates of other metals. During smelting, when the ore is exposed to high temperatures, these impurities are separated from the molten metal and can be removed. Slag is the collection of compounds that are removed. In many smelting processes, oxides are introduced to control the slag chemistry, assisting in the removal of impurities and protecting the furnace refractory lining from excessive wear. In this case, the slag is termed synthetic. A good example is steelmaking slag: quicklime (CaO) and magnesite (MgCO3) are introduced for refractory protection, neutralising the alumina and silica separated from the metal, and assist in the removal of sulfur and phosphorus from the steel.

Ferrous and non-ferrous smelting processes produce different slags. The smelting of copper, lead and bauxite in non-ferrous smelting, for instance, is designed to remove the iron and silica that often occurs with those ores, and separates them as iron-silicate-based slags.

Slag from steel mills in ferrous smelting, on the other hand, is designed to minimize iron loss and so mainly contains oxides of calcium, silicon, magnesium, and aluminium. Any sandy component or quartz component of the original ore automatically carries through the smelting process as silicon dioxide. As the slag is channeled out of the furnace, water is poured over it. This rapid cooling, often from a temperature of around 2,600 °F (1,430 °C), is the start of the granulating process. This process causes several chemical reactions to take place within the slag, and gives the material its cementitious properties.

The water carries the slag in its slurry format to a large agitation tank, from where it is pumped along a piping system into a number of gravel based filter beds. The filter beds then retain the slag granules, while the water drains away and is returned to the system.
When the filtering process is complete, the remaining slag granules, which now give the appearance of coarse beach sand, can be scooped out of the filter bed and transferred to the grinding facility where they are ground into particles that are finer than Portland cement.

During the Bronze Age of the Mediterranean there were a vast number of differential metallurgical processes in use. A slag by-product of such workings was a colorful, glassy, vitreous material found on the surfaces of slag from ancient copper foundries. It was primarily blue or green and was formerly chipped away and melted down to make glassware products and jewelry. It was also ground into powder to add to glazes for use in ceramics. Some of the earliest such uses for the by-products of slag have been found in ancient Egypt.[2]

Historically, the re-smelting of iron ore slag was common practice, as improved smelting techniques permitted greater iron yields—in some cases exceeding that which was originally achieved. During the early 20th century, iron ore slag was also ground to a powder and used to make agate glass, also known as slag glass.

Ground granulated slag is often used in concrete in combination with Portland cement as part of a blended cement. Ground granulated slag reacts with a calcium byproduct created during the reaction of Portland cement to produce cementitious properties. Concrete containing ground granulated slag develops strength over a longer period, leading to reduced permeability and better durability. Since the unit volume of Portland cement is reduced, this concrete is less vulnerable to alkali-silica and sulfate attack.

Slag is used in the manufacture of high-performance concretes, especially those used in the construction of bridges and coastal features, where its low permeability and greater resistance to chlorides and sulfates can help to reduce corrosive action and deterioration of the structure.[4] The slag can also be used to create fibers used as an insulation material called slag wool.

Basic slag is a co-product of steelmaking, and is typically produced either through the blast furnace - oxygen converter route or the electric arc furnace - ladle furnace route.[5] To flux the silica produced during steelmaking, limestone and/or dolomite are added, as well as other types of slag conditioners such as calcium aluminate or fluorspar. The major components of these slags therefore include the oxides of calcium, magnesium, silicon, iron, and aluminum, with lesser amounts of manganese, phosphorus, and others depending on the specifics of the raw materials used.

Because of the slowly released phosphate content in phosphorus-containing slag, and because of its liming effect, it is valued as fertilizer in gardens and farms in steel making areas. However, the most important application is construction.

[Vino24]

Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins without MJ stfu

[3ba11]

Not following the logic here. Getting home court in the first round doesn't necessarily mean he had a good supporting cast. It can also mean that the conference was weak and that he was really good.


Arenas and Hughes led the 05' Wizards to the 2nd Round, but then Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas and beat the Wizards in the 06' 1st Round.

That should answer your question definitively..

Ultimately, we know his cast was good because it was DEVELOPED over several years into a high seed before entering the 06' playoffs:

The 04' Cavs had zero all-stars, while the 05' Cavs had 2... That's big improvement... Then the 06' Cavs added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY, which allowed them to enter the playoffs as a favored, high seed over the Wizards team that they robbed Hughes from

So again, Lebron never carried bums because he never HAD bums - he always had high seeds, while his low seeds/bad teams missed playoffs - so Lebron never had to carry bad teams in the playoffs like MJ or other stars

[MadDog]

LeBron's lack of help is definitely exaggerated. I often see posters claim he carried "bums" in 2009 & 2010. But in the NBA, you don't win 66 games and are called bad. In 09, the Cavs were 3rd in ORTG and 4th in DRTG (around the same in 2010). I remember them being very good defensively.

LeBron's biggest "carry" was in the 09 ECF and throughout the 18 playoffs.

[tontoz]

Being the 2 and 3 seed with 50 wins and the 4th seed with 45 wins just shows how weak the conference was.

45 wins in the west wouldn't have even made the playoffs in 2019. 50 wins got the 5 seed.

[ShawkFactory]

Bored again?

[3ba11]

you don't win 66 games





The only roster change in 09' was Mo Williams, whose 0.17 WS/48 was nearly triple the win contribution of the previous player.. Otoh, Lebron's win share increased much less, so Mo was the main reason for the win increase.. Mo gave the Cavs a 2nd scoring option that was superior to 90' Pippen across the board (BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, scoring, efficiency).

Sounds like a pretty nice thing to have.. :confusedshrug:






LeBron's biggest "carry" was in the 09 ECF





The 18 Cavs were a good, 2-star team that included the best 2nd option in the conference, while the 18' Celtics weren't a good team - so it's just an overrated run that Iverson, Dwight, Butler, Giannis and others matched..

And Love was at 20/10 on 50% in the ECF, which is good - so Lebron still never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)..

Lebron can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is either too ball-dominant/westbrooking strategy (09' ECF), or too inefficient at high volume jumpshooting (15' Finals)






LeBron's biggest "carry" was in the 09 ECF





Revised OP (answer to above post in bold):


We know Lebron's cast was good relative to it's Eastern competition because Arenas/Hughes led the 05' Wizards to the 2nd Round, but then Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas and beat the Wizards in the 06' 1st Round..

Accordingly, Lebron never carried bums because he never HAD bums - he al
ways had high seeds, while his low seeds/bad teams missed playoffs - i.e. he failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04/05/19 and therefore had several years to develop his team into a high seeds before entering the 06' and 20' Playoffs.

It's a big advantage to always have a high seed because most great players dragged lottery teams to low seeds except Lebron, who only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and therefore never "carried bums" or had bad teams/low seeds in the playoffs like young MJ or other young players.

The 04' Cavs had zero all-stars, while the 05' Cavs had 2... That's big improvement... Then the 06' Cavs added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY, which allowed them to enter the playoffs as a favored, high seed over the now-Hughes-less Wizards.. Lebron simply never carried bums and can't because he can't win with high scoring because his high-scoring is either too ball-dominant/westbrooking strategy (09' ECF), or too inefficient at high volume jumpshooting (15' Finals).

[TheCorporation]

Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins without MJ stfu

Boom! And we're done :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://i.imgur.com/OWkTqIM.gif

Thank you for posting what goes on in that tiny brain of yours every day: absolutely nothing

[3ba11]

Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins without MJ stfu


Bulls had to develop 3-peat know-how to win those 55 (great STRATEGY) because their top options averaged a mere 22/5 and 15/11 (weak TALENT).

Otoh, Lebron never developed 3-peat know-how to get high seeds - he simply avoided the playoffs (lottery) until his team developed into a favored, high seed

[Axe]

MJ only made the finals with Pippen (stacked cast)
Don't be a noob. He actually worships kobe, not mj.

[SaintzFury13]

I'm bored and feel like making 3ball look like an idiot again, so...here we go.


The only roster change in 09' was Mo Williams, whose 0.17 WS/48 was nearly triple the win contribution of the previous player.. Otoh, Lebron's win share increased much less, so Mo was the main reason for the win increase.. Mo gave the Cavs a 2nd scoring option that was superior to 90' Pippen across the board (BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, scoring, efficiency).

Sounds like a pretty nice thing to have.. :confusedshrug:

There you go once again showcasing that you didn't watch basketball at the time. Mo Williams was the only notable roster addition but was not the main reason for the win increase.

For one thing, 2009 was the year LeBron became a truly elite defensive player. It's actually incredible how big of a jump he made in one season. He went from being mediocre at that end at best in 2008 to being second in DPOY voting the next season. You always talk about how good of a defensive team the 2009 Cavaliers were. That started AND ended with LeBron. Without him, they were not elite, in any conceivable way.

Second, 2009 was when Anderson Varejao truly started to develop as a reliable player on both ends of the floor. His offensive awareness improved dramatically and he was able to score at better rate to the point where he was no longer a massive liability on the floor. He was also becoming a very good defensive player and peaked the following season when he was named to the all defensive second team.

Third, the players that they acquired in 2008 were finally able to go through a full training camp with the team. A lot of people don't remember this, but Cleveland improved dramatically once they acquired Wallace, West, and Wally in 2008. In 2009, we got to see just how big of a difference they could make for the team.

And you know the rest. The team actually had incredible chemistry and went on to win 66 games. Unless you had significant match up advantages (like the Lakers and Magic did, hence why they were the only ones who could consistently beat them that season), it was incredibly difficult to beat Cleveland, especially at their home turf.

In other words, no, Mo Williams was not the main reason and you're an idiot.


The 18 Cavs were a good, 2-star team that included the best 2nd option in the conference, while the 18' Celtics weren't a good team - so it's just an overrated run that Iverson, Dwight, Butler, Giannis and others matched..

Kevin Love was a non factor against Boston, so why are you mentioning that the Cavaliers had the best second option in the conference (they didn't btw)? You are literally killing your own argument and are somehow too stupid to realize it.

And lmao, the Celtics weren't a good team. Buddy, they were a GREAT team who were able to make it to the ECF without two of their best players. They were incredibly deep with talent and were very well coached. Stop with this idiocy.


And Love was at 20/10 on 50% in the ECF, which is good - so Lebron still never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)..

You're saying this like LeBron wouldn't have been able to beat the Raptors without Love.


Lebron can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is either too ball-dominant/westbrooking strategy (09' ECF), or too inefficient at high volume jumpshooting (15' Finals)

Every single time you mention this point, I feel my IQ dropping. Ignoring the fact that there are multiple instances of LeBron carrying his team with high scoring, LeBron's style of play is nothing like Westbrooks. So I don't know why you keep calling it "westbrooking".

And your example of high volume jumpshooting is the 2015 finals? Again, thanks for demonstrating that you didn't watch the series. At this point I'm questioning if you even watch basketball at all.

[SaintzFury13]

We know Lebron's cast was good relative to it's Eastern competition because Arenas/Hughes led the 05' Wizards to the 2nd Round, but then Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas and beat the Wizards in the 06' 1st Round..

And yet Hughes was constantly injury plagued during his time with Cleveland and was never anywhere close to the player he was in Washington. So this point doesn't work.


Accordingly, Lebron never carried bums because he never HAD bums - he al
ways had high seeds, while his low seeds/bad teams missed playoffs - i.e. he failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04/05/19 and therefore had several years to develop his team into a high seeds before entering the 06' and 20' Playoffs.

Lmao what? In what way were the 2020 Lakers a developed team? Only one of the players in the starting line up were on the team the previous year. They were drastically different compared to the previous season. Not to mention, LeBron was injured for a good amount of 2019, so your logic doesn't even work here.


It's a big advantage to always have a high seed because most great players dragged lottery teams to low seeds except Lebron, who only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and therefore never "carried bums" or had bad teams/low seeds in the playoffs like young MJ or other young players.

Re-read what you just typed. Please.


The 04' Cavs had zero all-stars, while the 05' Cavs had 2... That's big improvement... Then the 06' Cavs added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY, which allowed them to enter the playoffs as a favored, high seed over the now-Hughes-less Wizards.. Lebron simply never carried bums and can't because he can't win with high scoring because his high-scoring is either too ball-dominant/westbrooking strategy (09' ECF), or too inefficient at high volume jumpshooting (15' Finals).

And there you go again making the claim that he can't win with high scoring, despite the fact that he did it in 2016.

And I love the fact that you are pointing out that Mike Brown is a COY award winner. Guess what? Mike D'Antoni won that award twice. Winning that award does not = great coach. Throughout Mike Brown's time with Cleveland, especially the later years, his coaching methods were called into question time and time again. His coaching in the 2010 playoffs against Boston received a lot of negative attention. He had no idea how to adapt and adjust to the match up issues Boston caused (even though all he had to do was swap out Jaminson with Hickson and just like that Boston was screwed), and his rotations were laughably bad. You can claim LeBron's supporting cast wasn't bad (and to an extent I do agree), but to pretend he had some caliber coach during his first stint with Cleveland is just laughable. The reality of it is, LeBron never had any coach on the same caliber as Phil Jackson until he had David Blatt in his second stint with Cleveland (and we all know how that turned out, and yes, that outcome is entirely LeBron's fault).

[SaintzFury13]

LeBron's lack of help is definitely exaggerated. I often see posters claim he carried "bums" in 2009 & 2010. But in the NBA, you don't win 66 games and are called bad. In 09, the Cavs were 3rd in ORTG and 4th in DRTG (around the same in 2010). I remember them being very good defensively.

LeBron's biggest "carry" was in the 09 ECF and throughout the 18 playoffs.

His lack of help is exaggerated to an extent. It's easy to understand why idiots like 3ball who didn't watch at the time would try to argue LeBron had the same kind of help Jordan did.

The 2009 Cavaliers are a perfect example of a team that can be built almost perfectly around a star player and then be doomed to fail in the end. And they were in fact perfectly built around LeBron. Mo Williams was honestly the perfect second option. He was an elite spot up shooting PG who could also run the offense but didn't have to in order to be effective at that end. He was a good off the ball player so he knew what to do. With the system Cleveland had in place and the personal it had, it was very difficult to beat that Cleveland team because it was almost impossible to guard LeBron and the talent surrounding him was good enough to the point where you couldn't ignore them, and if you did, you were screwed.

The only teams that could really figure this out were the Magic and Lakers. Even the Celtics, who were on pace to have an even better season than their championship campaign before Garnett got injured, struggled against the Cavaliers, and even got blown the **** out by them. Cleveland's biggest weakness that season was that they lacked size in the interior, and if you had the bigs to consistently cause trouble and force a lot of attention down low, you had a very good chance of beating them. Orlando had Howard and LA had both Gasol and Bynum. This is why Cleveland consistently struggled against them. But it was never to the point where they were total blowouts. Cleveland was still able to at least keep the games competitive.

Hell, the same can be said about the 2010 Cavaliers. I still contend to this day that if Mike Brown had just started Hickson at PF instead of Jaminson (who got his shit pushed in by Garnett on both ends of the floor), Cleveland probably would have won that series and probably would have won the championship that year. Boston struggled against the more fast paced and active teams that year due to their advanced age, but starting Jaminson because he was the better player ended up playing right into Bostons hands. Cleveland played far better when they relied more on athleticism than talent to win against Boston, but Mike Brown of course didn't realize this because... well, he wasn't a very good coach. And Cleveland had the bigs to neutralize the advantage that LA had over them the previous season so it really was theirs for the taking.

So I'll say this: the talent was definitely there. But in 09 they were pretty much screwed due to match up problems. In 2010 they had a far better chance but didn't pull it out because Mike Brown is an idiot.

[Axe]

I'm bored and feel like making 3ball look like an idiot again, so...here we go.



There you go once again showcasing that you didn't watch basketball at the time. Mo Williams was the only notable roster addition but was not the main reason for the win increase.

For one thing, 2009 was the year LeBron became a truly elite defensive player. It's actually incredible how big of a jump he made in one season. He went from being mediocre at that end at best in 2008 to being second in DPOY voting the next season. You always talk about how good of a defensive team the 2009 Cavaliers were. That started AND ended with LeBron. Without him, they were not elite, in any conceivable way.

Second, 2009 was when Anderson Varejao truly started to develop as a reliable player on both ends of the floor. His offensive awareness improved dramatically and he was able to score at better rate to the point where he was no longer a massive liability on the floor. He was also becoming a very good defensive player and peaked the following season when he was named to the all defensive second team.

Third, the players that they acquired in 2008 were finally able to go through a full training camp with the team. A lot of people don't remember this, but Cleveland improved dramatically once they acquired Wallace, West, and Wally in 2008. In 2009, we got to see just how big of a difference they could make for the team.

And you know the rest. The team actually had incredible chemistry and went on to win 66 games. Unless you had significant match up advantages (like the Lakers and Magic did, hence why they were the only ones who could consistently beat them that season), it was incredibly difficult to beat Cleveland, especially at their home turf.

In other words, no, Mo Williams was not the main reason and you're an idiot.



Kevin Love was a non factor against Boston, so why are you mentioning that the Cavaliers had the best second option in the conference (they didn't btw)? You are literally killing your own argument and are somehow too stupid to realize it.

And lmao, the Celtics weren't a good team. Buddy, they were a GREAT team who were able to make it to the ECF without two of their best players. They were incredibly deep with talent and were very well coached. Stop with this idiocy.



You're saying this like LeBron wouldn't have been able to beat the Raptors without Love.



Every single time you mention this point, I feel my IQ dropping. Ignoring the fact that there are multiple instances of LeBron carrying his team with high scoring, LeBron's style of play is nothing like Westbrooks. So I don't know why you keep calling it "westbrooking".

And your example of high volume jumpshooting is the 2015 finals? Again, thanks for demonstrating that you didn't watch the series. At this point I'm questioning if you even watch basketball at all.

And yet Hughes was constantly injury plagued during his time with Cleveland and was never anywhere close to the player he was in Washington. So this point doesn't work.



Lmao what? In what way were the 2020 Lakers a developed team? Only one of the players in the starting line up were on the team the previous year. They were drastically different compared to the previous season. Not to mention, LeBron was injured for a good amount of 2019, so your logic doesn't even work here.



Re-read what you just typed. Please.



And there you go again making the claim that he can't win with high scoring, despite the fact that he did it in 2016.

And I love the fact that you are pointing out that Mike Brown is a COY award winner. Guess what? Mike D'Antoni won that award twice. Winning that award does not = great coach. Throughout Mike Brown's time with Cleveland, especially the later years, his coaching methods were called into question time and time again. His coaching in the 2010 playoffs against Boston received a lot of negative attention. He had no idea how to adapt and adjust to the match up issues Boston caused (even though all he had to do was swap out Jaminson with Hickson and just like that Boston was screwed), and his rotations were laughably bad. You can claim LeBron's supporting cast wasn't bad (and to an extent I do agree), but to pretend he had some caliber coach during his first stint with Cleveland is just laughable. The reality of it is, LeBron never had any coach on the same caliber as Phil Jackson until he had David Blatt in his second stint with Cleveland (and we all know how that turned out, and yes, that outcome is entirely LeBron's fault).
Again, you're just beating a dead horse. You won't get any decent arguments at all trying to debate op.

[3ba11]

Mo Williams was the only notable roster addition but was not the main reason for the win increase.

2009 was the year LeBron became a truly elite defensive player





We know for a fact that Lebron's improvement in media award rankings like DPOY wasn't the reason for the Cavs' good defense in 2009 because the 07' Cavs already had a great defense, which allowed them to make the Finals and also take the 08' Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%.

In addition to the 09' Cavs already having a great defensive reputation, the stats show that Mo was the main reason for the win increase - his WS/48 was 0.165, or 3 times the win contribution of the previous player (Pavlovic), while Lebron's increase in WS/48 wasn't nearly as much..

And intuitively, we know that having a 2nd legitimate scorer is a massive improvement that takes a team to the next dimension versus not having one - this added offensive dimension applied more pressure/wore down defenses more, which left less capacity for offense - the best defense is a good offense, and Mo gave the Cavs the necessary offensive pressure to win the battle of attrition.






Second, 2009 was when Anderson Varejao truly started to develop as a reliable player on both ends of the floor.





Nonsense - Varejao was effective from his rookie year (06'), as reflected by his playing time, raw stats and impact stats - the 06' Cavs finally made the playoffs that year in part because they drafted the ready-made Varejao, while also adding a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to the existing all-star duo of Lerbon/Zydrunas.





Kevin Love was a non factor against Boston, so why are you mentioning that the Cavaliers had the best second option in the conference





Who cares about Boston because they weren't a top opponent that year - the #2 SRS Raptors were the best team and supposed to be the tough matchup, but Love averaged 21/11 so the Cavs swept in the 2nd Round... Love's performance means that Lebron still hasn't beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)... So who cares about the Celtics - they were a bum team and everyone has carry-jobs over bum teams.

And we know why Lebron has to beat up on rookie Celtic teams and can't have carry-jobs against good teams (top 5 SRS) - he simply can't win with high scoring because it's too ball-dominant/westbrooking strategy (09' ECF), or too inefficient at carry-job volume (15' Finals), aka too much jumpshooting required at high volume... We know that lebron avoids contested jumpshots so he doesn't have the capacity or know how to have high volume/carry teams, andn therefore needs 1b's and super-teams.






2015 Finals is your example of high jumpshooting volume?





Yes and Lebron shot 20% on jumpshots in that series because he can't handle the additional jumpshooting that carry-job volume requires (30 FGA).. This shouldn't be a surprise because it's statistical fact that Lebron avoids contested jumpshots - he's never been good at them and lacks elite jumpshooting skill like Kobe or MJ - so he can't just pop off his jumper whenever he wants like they can, which hurts him when high volume carry-jobs force him to take a lot of jumpers (2015).. It's a massive inferiority that Lebron has to MJ/Kobe because it prevents him from carrying teams like they could.

[SaintzFury13]

Nonsense - Varejao was effective from his rookie year (06'), as reflected by his playing time, raw stats and impact stats - the 06' Cavs finally made the playoffs that year in part because they drafted the ready-made Varejao

This might actually be the dumbest thing I've ever seen you say during your time on this forum. And that's saying a lot because the list is long and you get a headache from just reading it.

[Sportal]

Arenas and Hughes led the 05' Wizards to the 2nd Round, but then Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas and beat the Wizards in the 06' 1st Round.

That should answer your question definitively..

Ultimately, we know his cast was good because it was DEVELOPED over several years into a high seed before entering the 06' playoffs:

The 04' Cavs had zero all-stars, while the 05' Cavs had 2... That's big improvement... Then the 06' Cavs added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY, which allowed them to enter the playoffs as a favored, high seed over the Wizards team that they robbed Hughes from

So again, Lebron never carried bums because he never HAD bums - he always had high seeds, while his low seeds/bad teams missed playoffs - so Lebron never had to carry bad teams in the playoffs like MJ or other stars

That robbed Hughes? The Wizards got sweep by Miami the year before... How are you robbing a team that got swept? Big Z was an all-star the year before LeBron joined the Cavs, the first season LeBron was in Cleveland he had 2 less PPG, more rebounds, and more blocks, then LeBron's 2nd season he was an all-star again...

Oh... And this Larry Hughes?


Which season was the worst or most frustrating for you?

LH: Probably my first season in Cleveland after leaving Washington. I suffered a few hand injuries during my time in Washington and that was something that bothered me. Obviously, if you’re not healthy, then you can’t play and you can’t produce. The best thing you can do is actually be healthy enough to get out there on the floor. When I got to Cleveland, that was really my mindset – to be healthy. But I think I got hurt in the preseason. I didn’t tell anybody until around December or January that I was actually hurt, but I pretty much shattered my middle finger on my right hand, so that season was sort of a here-we-go-again sort of deal with being injured, not being able to play, not being able to live up to the contract that I just signed. So, that was a pretty tough season.

The one that couldn't live up to his contract because of injuries?

[3ba11]

This might actually be the dumbest thing I've ever seen you say during your time on this forum. And that's saying a lot because the list is long and you get a headache from just reading it.


Yeah if you cut off my post halfway and leave off the pertinent part, then I can see why you would think that

And btw, you didn't watch back then if you disagree - Varejao was an effective player right away and his drafting is part of the reason they made the playoffs in 06', along with the addition of hughes, the addition of the future COY, and the existing all star duo of lebron/zydrunas (don't leave this part out).

Ultimately, the following isn't my opinion... :confusedshrug:... It's the historical record:

Lebron failed to carry lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04', 05', or 19', and always had high playoffs seeds (good casts relative to conference) - so he never carried bums/low seeds in the playoffs like other stars who carried lottery teams to low seeds (carried bums).

[3ba11]

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When Lebron had bums, he missed the playoffs.. Otherwise, he always had high seeds in the playoffs (good casts relative to conference) and therefore never carried bums in the playoffs - this is proven by his first playoff team (06' Cavs), who stole the sidekick of their 1st Round opponent (Hughes).. i.e. Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05' and then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 06'.

[Manny98]

Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins without MJ stfu
Igoudala lead the Denver Nuggets to 57 wins in 2013

Regular season win count means f*ck all

[SaintzFury13]

Yeah if you cut off my post halfway and leave off the pertinent part, then I can see why you would think that

And btw, you didn't watch back then if you disagree - Varejao was an effective player right away and his drafting is part of the reason they made the playoffs in 06', along with the addition of hughes, the addition of the future COY, and the existing all star duo of lebron/zydrunas (don't leave this part out).

Anderson Varejao was not an NBA ready player by any stretch of the imagination. In fact he was horrible starting out.

He was extremely clumsy and lacked an offensive game, having to rely entirely on LeBron to force feed him open opportunities because him having the ball was like watching Steve Nash play defense. And speaking of, even on that end, he wasn't all that great. He constantly got lost on defense and lacked the awareness to play in a team setting. These were things he had to develop and learn as time went on.

And don't pretend you were watching back then because we all know you didn't.


Ultimately, the following isn't my opinion... :confusedshrug:... It's the historical record:

Lebron failed to carry lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the playoffs in 04', 05', or 19', and always had high playoffs seeds (good casts relative to conference) - so he never carried bums/low seeds in the playoffs like other stars who carried lottery teams to low seeds (carried bums).

Please, do explain how the 2007 Cavaliers squad was a good supporting cast.

[SaintzFury13]

Igoudala lead the Denver Nuggets to 57 wins in 2013

Regular season win count means f*ck all

Just so everyone is aware, this guy thought Ty Lawson was the one leading that team until I pointed out it was Igoudala.

[Axe]

Igoudala lead the Denver Nuggets to 57 wins in 2013

Regular season win count means f*ck all
Kyle korver and co. led the hawks to 60 wins in 2015 as well

[3ba11]

Anderson Varejao was not an NBA ready player by any stretch of the imagination. In fact he was horrible starting out.

He was extremely clumsy and lacked an offensive game, having to rely entirely on LeBron to force feed him open opportunities because him having the ball was like watching Steve Nash play defense. And speaking of, even on that end, he wasn't all that great. He constantly got lost on defense and lacked the awareness to play in a team setting. These were things he had to develop and learn as time went on.

And don't pretend you were watching back then because we all know you didn't.



Please, do explain how the 2007 Cavaliers squad was a good supporting cast.


I watched all those games and Varejao was a valued hustle guy that knew his role from Day 1 - better than rookie Pippen, who wasn't a good defender or offensive player and finding his identity - at least Varejao could defend and rebound right away..

And the 07' Cavs had an all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender (pippen), a top defense and the future COY - that's the same help as the 1st three-peat Bulls, except the Cavs had the #3 defense and the Bulls only #7

[SaintzFury13]

I watched all those games

No you didn't.


and Varejao was a valued hustle guy that knew his role from Day 1 - better than rookie Pippen, who wasn't a good defender or offensive player and finding his identity - at least Varejao could defend and rebound right away.

And this is proof of that. Varejao was a lackluster defender starting out. He had terrible footwork and had trouble keeping up with anyone he defended. I guess his low post defense was decent, but otherwise he was horrid at that end.

And better than rookie Pippen. You are just striking out on these.


And the 07' Cavs had an all-star center

No they didn't.


a 22/5/5 all-defender (pippen)

Larry Hughes is not Scottie Pippen.

And please, tell me, what were Larry Hughes stats in 2007? I'll wait.


a top defense and the future COY - that's the same help as the 1st three-peat Bulls, except the Cavs had the #3 defense and the Bulls only #7

And how is that anywhere close to the same help as the 1st peat Bulls? You need to explain this.

[3ba11]

No you didn't watch the games back then





This isn't a joke or a nanny nanny boo boo situation that you're making it - I watched every Lebron game back then that was available - he was among my favorite players from 2006 to around 2010 as I cheered against Kobe (who everyone was comparing to MJ)..

I was blinded by Lebron's physical talent just like everyone else was, but the 2010 meltdown showed me that something was wrong - only then did I take the blinders off and start looking at LeWestbrick's game objectively.






Varejao was a lackluster defender starting out. He had terrible footwork and had trouble keeping up with anyone he defended.





Everyone was happy to see Varejao in the game because we knew he was going to be diving on the floor and impacting the game without scoring, while having a wild style that was fan friendly..

So you're just lying about Varejao at this point.. He fit his role perfectly and therefore outplayed other players at his minute-level (WS/48, aka win contribution), while Pippen underachieved his 2nd option role until 1991 (horrific WS/48 until 91').






And better than rookie Pippen. You are just striking out on these.





It's not even close:

06' Varejao.... 17.0 PER... 0.165 WS/48.... 0.2 BPM... 0.5 VORP
88' Pippen..... 12.9 PER... 0.066 WS/48... -0.6 BPM... 0.6 VORP


The worst part is that Pippen was the Bulls' 2nd scoring option because Oakley was just a rebounder that got putbacks or spot-ups - so Pippen's 8 ppg and 14 ppg was getting massively outplayed every night at 2nd option, while Varejao was playing his role perfectly as the 10th option hustler/defender... That's why rookie Varejao helped the Cavs more than rookie or sophomore Pippen, who massively HURT the bulls at 2nd option - he was TARGETED by opponents as the weak link..

If you watched the games, you'd know.. Pippen was horrible and a liability until 1991, and then he resumed being a liability from 93' onwards..





Pippen





93' Pippen didn't place in the DPOY race (MJ was 2nd), and Pippen had the lowest impact stats ever for a winning sidekick in the playoffs (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP, efficiency) - this included 45% true shooting in the Finals as rookie Dumas went off.. Fortunately, MJ had the goat playoff run in 1993, so the Bulls still 3-peated..

Then Pippen wet the bed in the 94' Playoffs (21.7 on 40% against Ewing), and 95' Playoffs (19 on 40% to lose the 2nd Round), and 96-98' Playoffs (17.6 on 41%), and 99-03' Playoffs (11 ppg).






No they didn't - the 07' Cavs didn't have an all-star center





True - they had a 2-time all-star center that was coming off his best season as the #6 rim protector in the league:


05' ZYDRUNAS'.... 18/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 2-time all-star... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48...
90' PIPPEN.......... 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 1-time all-star... 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48...

06' ZYDRUNAS'.... 16/8 and 1.7 blocks.. 2-time all-star... 21.9 PER.. 0.184 WS/48...






Larry Hughes is not Scottie Pippen.





Lebron was gifted a player that was better than 90' Pippen

05' HUGHES.... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st team defense
90' PIPPEN...... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. nothing


but proceeded to lose with him while Jordan proceeded to win with Pippen





how do the 07' Cavs have anywhere near the help as the 1st peat Bulls?






* The 07' Cavs had better-ranked defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options - they had scoring options at 3rd option, which the Bulls never had..

* The 09' Cavs had an even better-ranked defense and added all-star Mo Williams

* Then 2010 Cavs added Jamison and Shaq to a 66-win league favorite... :facepalm:.. #7 defense (just like the Bulls) and tons of scoring options


But here's some back story that you're forgetting:

Gilbert Arenas was an elite shooter and off-guard, so he fit well with a combo guard like Hughes, who needed the ball in his hands a certain amount to achieve his maximum stats - Hughes' peak stats were the same as Pippen's (22/6/5 and 1st team defense).

So Lebron was gifted a young Pippen-like player, but couldn't develop him and instead destroyed him.. This wasn't a one-off because Ingram had a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, 3-point efficiency).. Other ball-handlers like Wade, Rose, IT, or Clarkson also failed to play to capacity alongside Lebron's ball-dominant skillset.

Ultimately, bad fits = skill deficit, so Lebron's lack of elite jumpshooting or off-ball skill prevents him from developing his Pippen - young ball-handlers develop alongside assist targets like MJ, not ball-dominators like Lebron.

[3ba11]

For the record, SaintzFury ran from the last post

[SaintzFury13]

This isn't a joke or a nanny nanny boo boo situation that you're making it - I watched every Lebron game back then that was available - he was among my favorite players from 2006 to around 2010 as I cheered against Kobe (who everyone was comparing to MJ)..

I was blinded by Lebron's physical talent just like everyone else was, but the 2010 meltdown showed me that something was wrong - only then did I take the blinders off and start looking at LeWestbrick's game objectively.

And yet you thought he was guarding Courtney Lee in the 2009 ECF and Dwight Howard wasn't a match up problem for the Cavaliers.

So no, you did not watch the games back then.


Everyone was happy to see Varejao in the game because we knew he was going to be diving on the floor and impacting the game without scoring, while having a wild style that was fan friendly..

So you're just lying about Varejao at this point.. He fit his role perfectly and therefore outplayed other players at his minute-level (WS/48, aka win contribution), while Pippen underachieved his 2nd option role until 1991 (horrific WS/48 until 91').

So now you are in fact acknowledging that Varejao had no offensive game and had no defensive game but "had a fan friendly play style because he hustled a lot".

Okay, cool, that's great. He was still a terrible player starting out.


It's not even close:

06' Varejao.... 17.0 PER... 0.165 WS/48.... 0.2 BPM... 0.5 VORP
88' Pippen..... 12.9 PER... 0.066 WS/48... -0.6 BPM... 0.6 VORP

Those are the stats you are going to try to use to compare two bench players.

What a clown.


The worst part is that Pippen was the Bulls' 2nd scoring option because Oakley was just a rebounder that got putbacks or spot-ups - so Pippen's 8 ppg and 14 ppg was getting massively outplayed every night at 2nd option, while Varejao was playing his role perfectly as the 10th option hustler/defender... That's why rookie Varejao helped the Cavs more than rookie or sophomore Pippen, who massively HURT the bulls at 2nd option - he was TARGETED by opponents as the weak link..

If you watched the games, you'd know.. Pippen was horrible and a liability until 1991, and then he resumed being a liability from 93' onwards..

If you watched the games you would know that Pippen wasn't the Bulls second option on offense in his rookie season, or even his second year in the league.

And a lability doesn't come third in MVP voting, you idiot.


93' Pippen didn't place in the DPOY race (MJ was 2nd), and Pippen had the lowest impact stats ever for a winning sidekick in the playoffs (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP, efficiency) - this included 45% true shooting in the Finals as rookie Dumas went off.. Fortunately, MJ had the goat playoff run in 1993, so the Bulls still 3-peated..

And yet Pippen still put up 21 PPG in the 93 Finals. But sure, we're going to sit here and pretend those don't matter because they don't fit your narrative.


Then Pippen wet the bed in the 94' Playoffs (21.7 on 40% against Ewing), and 95' Playoffs (19 on 40% to lose the 2nd Round), and 96-98' Playoffs (17.6 on 41%), and 99-03' Playoffs (11 ppg).

And there you go again pretending scoring is the only thing that matters. I can just as easily use that logic against you and argue Pippen was superior because he did everything else better.


True - they had a 2-time all-star center that was coming off his best season as the #6 rim protector in the league:


05' ZYDRUNAS'.... 18/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 2-time all-star... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48...
90' PIPPEN.......... 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 1-time all-star... 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48...

06' ZYDRUNAS'.... 16/8 and 1.7 blocks.. 2-time all-star... 21.9 PER.. 0.184 WS/48...

And yet he didn't make the all star team in 2007, so no, he did not have an all star center you idiot.


Lebron was gifted a player that was better than 90' Pippen

05' HUGHES.... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st team defense
90' PIPPEN...... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. nothing


but proceeded to lose with him while Jordan proceeded to win with Pippen

Even if Hughes was better than Pippen (he wasn't), he wasn't anywhere close to that player in 2007. Again, your entire point falls apart the moment we get to that season. Everything that happens beforehand is irrelevant.



* The 07' Cavs had better-ranked defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options - they had scoring options at 3rd option, which the Bulls never had..

Horace Grant was a far better third scoring option than anything the 07 Cavaliers had.


* The 09' Cavs had an even better-ranked defense and added all-star Mo Williams

They didn't "add all star Mo Williams". That would imply Mo was an all star before he came to the Cavaliers. He never came anywhere close to being one beforehand, and only became one in 2009 because of an injury replacement.


* Then 2010 Cavs added Jamison and Shaq to a 66-win league favorite... :facepalm:.. #7 defense (just like the Bulls) and tons of scoring options

Both of whom were liabilities to the Cavaliers and made them worse. And FYI, neither of that is LeBron's fault.

And to all of these points: Comparing ranks in leagues to different years doesn't work, and I've already explained why. You'd have to be an absolute retard to think that point holds any merit. Either legitimately explain why the 07 Cavs had more help or admit you're a retard who doesn't know what he's talking about.



But here's some back story that you're forgetting:

Gilbert Arenas was an elite shooter and off-guard, so he fit well with a combo guard like Hughes, who needed the ball in his hands a certain amount to achieve his maximum stats - Hughes' peak stats were the same as Pippen's (22/6/5 and 1st team defense).

So Lebron was gifted a young Pippen-like player, but couldn't develop him and instead destroyed him.. This wasn't a one-off because Ingram had a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, 3-point efficiency).. Other ball-handlers like Wade, Rose, IT, or Clarkson also failed to play to capacity alongside Lebron's ball-dominant skillset.

Ultimately, bad fits = skill deficit, so Lebron's lack of elite jumpshooting or off-ball skill prevents him from developing his Pippen - young ball-handlers develop alongside assist targets like MJ, not ball-dominators like Lebron.

I'm not reading any of this because I already know what you're going to say: Hughes was so great and better than Pippen but he couldn't fit with LeBron because of LeBron's play style. Larry Hughes was injured before he even came to Cleveland. He was doomed to fail from the start. If you're going to put that on LeBron when that clearly isn't his fault, then I'm just going to blame Jordan for literally everything. He is the reason he went 1-9 starting out, he is the reason they lost to Detroit every single time until Scottie Pippen bailed him out, and he is the reason they lost in 95. If you aren't going to use logic and context, then neither am I.

[3ba11]

And yet you thought he was guarding Courtney Lee in the 2009 ECF and Dwight Howard wasn't a match up problem for the Cavaliers.

So no, you did not watch the games back then.





wtf are you talking about - Lebron guarded Courtney Lee in the 2009 ECF - he also guarded Rafer, but he guarded Courtney Lee too

and what difference does it make? Rafer was an AND1 point guard and a backup - Lebron had no business guarding some tiny player instead of the point forward at his position that was controlling and setting up entry passes to Dwight (Hedo).. Lebron was an idiot for not telling Mike Brown to let him guard his own damn position - and it was a fellow point-forward that controlled the action just like Lebron (hedo)

Again, there's no excuse for Lebron not guarding Hedo except either cowardice or incompetence.






Those are the stats you are going to try to use to compare two bench players.

What a clown.





You're wrong again - they have the exact same role (bench player), which is precisely when their impact stats can be compared.. So looks like you're the clown.






So now you are in fact acknowledging that Varejao had no offensive game and had no defensive game but "had a fan friendly play style because he hustled a lot".

Okay, cool, that's great. He was still a terrible player starting out.





Rookie Pippen was a pretty bad scorer too and Varejao was better than him across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48) - only when Pippen himself became a double-digit scorer did he offer more value..






If you watched the games you would know that Pippen wasn't the Bulls second option on offense in his rookie season, or even his second year in the league.





Pippen was the 2nd option and once he could average a paltry 16 ppg, Jordan won 6 titles and 2 three-peats.. Anyone else in history needed a shit-ton more than that to win even 1 ring... Jordan's production rate (stats) are goat because he had the goat burden.






And there you go again pretending scoring is the only thing that matters. I can just as easily use that logic against you and argue Pippen was superior because he did everything else better.





If a 2nd option fails his scoring role, then he isn't a 2nd option and is a defensive role player - Pippen's weak scoring and worst-ever efficiency made him a defensive role player for 90% of his playoff career..

Specifically, Pippen was bad in the 88-90' Playoffs, while nearly causing loss in the 92' Playoffs (X-man debacle) and then having the worst-ever impact stats & efficiency in the 93' Playoffs... Then he choked in the 94' Playoffs and averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs (11 ppg from 99-03')...






And a lability doesn't come third in MVP voting, you idiot.





lol, even peak 94' Pippen was a liability in the playoffs, where he choked numerous times and was a complete disaster as 1st option - Kukoc led the team in playoff BPM, while Pippen was 4th on the team in win contribution (WS/48)..

Pippen was horrible for 90% of his playoff career.. He's the worst playoff performer ever and it's a travesty that he's awarded top 75 since that's reserved for goat performance (11' Dirk or 21' Giannis), not defensive role player performance like Pippen.






Pippen still put up 21 PPG in the 93 Finals.





So did Pandemic P against Denver (21 on 59% true shooting), yet Pippen's 93' Finals was much worse (21 on 45% true shooting)...

Jordan won 6 chips with Pandemic Pippen.






And yet he didn't make the all star team in 2007, so no, he did not have an all star center you idiot.





Once the 22/5/5 acquisition came on board (hughes), Zydrunas' production understandably declined and he wasn't an all-star - but Zydrunas still destroys 90' Pippen in 2006 when Lebron made his first playoffs..

So Lebron had a 2 guys on the 2006 team (Zydrunas and Hughes) that destroyed 90' Pippen... Then he added Mo' a couple years later (who also destroyed 90' Pippen across the board)... Then they added Shaq and Jamison to a 66-win league favorite.. All the while having a top 5 defense.



CONTINUED......

[3ba11]

... CONTINUED







Even if Hughes was better than Pippen (he wasn't), he wasn't anywhere close to that player in 2007. Again, your entire point falls apart the moment we get to that season. Everything that happens beforehand is irrelevant.





How can you say Lebron elevates teammates if everyone falls apart alongisde him?... Hughes wasn't a fluke - Ingram saw a 1-year decline across the board alongside Lebron (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, 3-point efficiency), while Wade, Rose, IT, and Clarkson also didn't play to capacity alongside him either..

People forget that Arenas was an elite-shooting, off-guard that fit well with Hughes and got peak-pippen stats out of him, while Lebron's ball-dominant skillset destroyed Hughes just like he did Ingram, Rose, Clarkson, or Wade..






Horace Grant was a far better third scoring option than anything the 07 Cavaliers had.





The 2007 Cavs had a 2-time all-star center as their 3rd option, who was coming off a season where he destroyed 90' Pippen.

Again - the 2007 Cavs had a better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having more scorers - even if you disagree, certainly the 2009 Cavs had an even better defense and more scoring options after adding Mo Williams and then adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite in 2010.






They didn't "add all star Mo Williams". That would imply Mo was an all star before he came to the Cavaliers. He never came anywhere close to being one beforehand, and only became one in 2009 because of an injury replacement.





Mo's assist declined from 6.3 to 4.1 under Lebron, so Mo toned it down to fit alongside Lebron - he dutifully spaced the floor and only used his play-creation ability when asked or needed, thus adding 21 wins to the bummy 45-win team that he joined..

Remember that Lebron had just proved that he couldn't handle a carry-job load by averaging 26 on 35% against the 08' Celtics, so Mo's offensive punch was desperately needed to reduce Lebron's shot attempt burden.

So the Cavs had 2 all-stars in 2009 along with a 3rd player with all-star experience (Zydrunas) and then they added Jamison/Shaq to their 66-win league favorite and top defense.






Both of whom were liabilities to the Cavaliers and made them worse. And FYI, neither of that is LeBron's fault.

And to all of these points: Comparing ranks in leagues to different years doesn't work, and I've already explained why. You'd have to be an absolute retard to think that point holds any merit. Either legitimately explain why the 07 Cavs had more help or admit you're a retard who doesn't know what he's talking about.





No you have it wrong - comparing the actual DRTG's over eras is wrong because the league average DRTG could be lower or higher - that's why comparing the RANKS is accurate - it shows where the team ranked relative to the league.

And Lebron's 2007 team had a better defense compared to the league than Jordan's 1st three-peat Bulls - the 07' Cavs had the league's 4th-ranked defense, compared to 7th for the Bulls.






I'm not reading any of this because I already know what you're going to say: Hughes was so great and better than Pippen but he couldn't fit with LeBron because of LeBron's play style.





I don't have to say that Lebron destroyed Hughes because I can use other examples - Ingram had a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP, 3-point efficiency), while Rose, IT, Clarkson and Wade couldn't play to capacity alongside Lebron either.

Lebron's ball-dominance simply does reduce guys - it's low character and immature to not accept the facts, however sobering... :confusedshrug:






Jordan is the reason he went 1-9 starting out, he is the reason they lost to Detroit every single time until Scottie Pippen bailed him out, and he is the reason they lost in 95. If you aren't going to use logic and context, then neither am I.





The difference is that Jordan never wet the bed like Lebron in the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, 10' ECSF, or 11' Finals - you can't say "well jordan shot horrifically in this series and that's why they lost" because he never shot horrifically in any loss

and he never lost as the favorite...