Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #16

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - NOW VOTING

Top 25 Player Pool

https://i.postimg.cc/Vsq1HTDz/Top-25-Candidates.jpg

For a full player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Kevin Durant - 8 (Manny98, 8Ball, 1987_Lakers, nayte, Phoenix, MadDog, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Chick Stern)
Julius Erving - 2 (jalbert009, L. Kizzle)
Dirk Nowitzki - 2 (Gonzaldo, ELITEpower23)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2)
Karl Malone - 1 (Magic is Magic)

[dankok8]

I vote for KG like I said I would in the last thread.

[RRR3]

Kevin Garnett shouldn’t be this low. David Robinson should be getting some love soon too IMO but I don’t expect him to be voted in so I’ll go with KG.

[Kobe_Bryant]

I vote garnett. easy choice


Durant outside of the top 20 like I'm outside of the top 10. we know what this was all about

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Dr. J

[SouBeachTalents]

I vote garnett. easy choice


Durant outside of the top 20 like I'm outside of the top 10. we know what this was all about

:lol
Are you seriously going to bitch about this the entire countdown :lol Absolutely obsessed.

OP shouldn’t count any of his votes anyway.

[Phoenix]

Are you seriously going to bitch about this the entire countdown :lol Absolutely obsessed.

OP shouldn’t count any of his votes anyway.

Agreed since he was stupid enough to admit that he's basically voting whomever just to keep Durant out of the top 20, because somehow this has something to do with Kobe? Who knows with that lunatic.

[Cold soul]

I vote KG should be higher.

[Overdrive]

Kevin Garnett shouldn’t be this low. David Robinson should be getting some love soon too IMO but I don’t expect him to be voted in so I’ll go with KG.

It's honestly tough to vote these spots. I feel KG, Dr. J, David Robinson, Durant, Barkley, Malone and Dirk should all be top 20, but only 4 spots left.

My vote goes to Dr. J.

[Manny98]

Who the **** is putting Moses Malone,Jerry West and Oscar Robertson over KD and Erving :facepalm

[SaintzFury13]

I do agree that Kevin Garnett shouldn't be this low. But there's a few others who shouldn't this low either.

Either way, voting Garnett.

[SaintzFury13]

Who the **** is putting Moses Malone,Jerry West and Oscar Robertson over KD and Erving :facepalm

I don't know, but I bet they know who the better player is between Andre Iguodala and Ty Lawson.

[warriorfan]

Julius Erving, KD/KG next

[Phoenix]

It's honestly tough to vote these spots. I feel KG, Dr. J, David Robinson, Durant, Barkley, Malone and Dirk should all be top 20, but only 4 spots left.

My vote goes to Dr. J.

Yep, this is the nitty gritty of the exercise. The top 10 is easy.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Agreed since he was stupid enough to admit that he's basically voting whomever just to keep Durant out of the top 20, because somehow this has something to do with Kobe? Who knows with that lunatic.

so my agenda vote isn't legitimate but yours is


at least i have the balls to admit it

[Kobe_Bryant]

Who the **** is putting Moses Malone,Jerry West and Oscar Robertson over KD and Erving :facepalm

just vote garnett. they want durant as far away from curry in rankings as possible. its the same as me vs lebron. they think if they have 10 spots inbetween both it will diminish who Me and Durant are worldwide

just join in and copy them and make their list even more of a joke than it already is. i wanted to vote myself out of the top 15 and when they realized that they bumped me from 12th to 11th


https://c.tenor.com/f-NJFoZcuHgAAAAM/kobe-bryant-laugh.gif

[L.Kizzle]

Moses Malone over Dr J ....
Played in the same era (together and as opponents)

Dr J went to 3 NBA Finals before winning championship with Moses.
Moses won 2 MVPs before winning championship with Dr J.

Doc had to win 60+ games to get his MVP meanwhile Moses got it with 46 and 47 wins. Doc had his 76ers always over 50 wins (besides one season.) Moses never had Houston over 50 wins ever before he left to join Julius.

[Round Mound]

Dr. J

[dankok8]

Moses Malone over Dr J ....
Played in the same era (together and as opponents)

Dr J went to 3 NBA Finals before winning championship with Moses.
Moses won 2 MVPs before winning championship with Dr J.

Doc had to win 60+ games to get his MVP meanwhile Moses got it with 46 and 47 wins. Doc had his 76ers always over 50 wins (besides one season.) Moses never had Houston over 50 wins ever before he left to join Julius.

Dr J's Sixers were a much more talented team than Moses' Rockets though. I think Dr J's NBA peak is worse than Moses' NBA peak and when they won in 83 Moses was clearly the best player on the team. If we include ABA Doctor, that may be a different story but ABA was a much weaker and more offensive minded league.

Dr J isn't a bad choice or anything but I don't see him with a strong case to above Moses who was better in the NBA.

[Phoenix]

Plot twist: I'd like to change my vote from Durant to Dr. J. He was the finals MVP on those Warriors squads, but he doesn't have the opportunity to win those awards without that bitch-ass move to join them.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

just vote garnett. they want durant as far away from curry in rankings as possible. its the same as me vs lebron. they think if they have 10 spots inbetween both it will diminish who Me and Durant are worldwide

just join in and copy them and make their list even more of a joke than it already is. i wanted to vote myself out of the top 15 and when they realized that they bumped me from 12th to 11th


https://c.tenor.com/f-NJFoZcuHgAAAAM/kobe-bryant-laugh.gif

We're really getting sick of your inefficient raping ass. Go drive a helicopter and get the hell out of here.

[ClipperRevival]

Dr. J

KD will end have being ranked higher when it's all said and done but right now, gotta give Dr. J some love.

[ClipperRevival]

WTF is up with all this KG love? It has to be due to the RealGM influence I'm assuming. I never visit that site so I'm not influenced by any of it. I can see legit arguments for KG nearing the 20ish area. We are talking the greatest players ever here.

[Phoenix]

WTF is up with all this KG love? It has to be due to the RealGM influence I'm assuming. I never visit that site so I'm not influenced by any of it. I can see legit arguments for KG nearing the 20ish area. We are talking the greatest players ever here.

Was wondering that myself. I never got the impression that ISH generally was THAT high on KG to the point where people are basically saying he's a top 15 player.

[Manny98]

I don't know, but I bet they know who the better player is between Andre Iguodala and Ty Lawson.
Cringe

[Kobe_Bryant]

We're really getting sick of your inefficient raping ass. Go drive a helicopter and get the hell out of here.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZS-_Qrn1hYc/maxresdefault.jpg

[gonzaldo]

If lest say Giannis stops competing now, after only 8 seasons, he'll have a better resume than KG, so i see no reason for him to be so high.

[Kobe_Bryant]

If lest say Giannis stops competing now, after only 8 seasons, he'll have a better resume than KG, so i see no reason for him to be so high.

i dunno... if that were the case bill walton would be top 20


giannis has really only had 4 great years

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZS-_Qrn1hYc/maxresdefault.jpg

Jobs already finished for kawhi, he matched you in finals mvps already and is only 30.

Won a ring with nick nurse the nobody, while you were Phil Jackson's bitch your entire career

[Kobe_Bryant]

Jobs already finished for kawhi, he matched you in finals mvps already and is only 30.

Won a ring with nick nurse the nobody, while you were Phil Jackson's bitch your entire career

he matched kareem too

is he on his level lmao

btw i like kawhi and hes my 2nd favorite player after durant. i bet you didn't even know that

i was cheering for the clippers the past few years but sadly kawhi had an all time epic choke job and then his team imploded the 2nd year.

now people are laughing at the idea of playing with him. kawhi had so much going for him and could have easily made the finals back to back years and probably beaten the lakers in the 2020 bubble but he threw away a championship team to play in LA... then got shipped to orlando anyway


never fold a winning hand because your uncle tells you to. be a man for once in your life

[HBK_Kliq_2]

he matched kareem too

is he on his level lmao

btw i like kawhi and hes my 2nd favorite player after durant. i bet you didn't even know that

i was cheering for the clippers the past few years but sadly kawhi had an all time epic choke job and then his team imploded the 2nd year.

now people are laughing at the idea of playing with him. kawhi had so much going for him and could have easily made the finals back to back years and probably beaten the lakers in the 2020 bubble but he threw away a championship team to play in LA... then got shipped to orlando anyway


never fold a winning hand because your uncle tells you to. be a man for once in your life

Kawhi's 2019 playoff run was easily better then any playoff run Kareem ever had.

Being stuck in a prison hotel with no fans doesn't count as real basketball.

2021 kawhi led the playoffs in offensive win shares but he got injured just like 5 other superstars did due to the tightly crammed schedule.

Not sure who doesn't want to play with kawhi. I hope you're not referring to the retard westbrick hahahahha

[Bankaii]

KD is getting disrespected big time. Him and Steph should pretty much be synonymous on these lists. No way we’re really thinking KG has a case over him.

[8Ball]

KD.

Giannis next

[1987_Lakers]

KD is getting disrespected big time. Him and Steph should pretty much be synonymous on these lists. No way we’re really thinking KG has a case over him.

This. How is Curry gonna be maybe 5 spots ahead of KD when KD has the clear longevity edge over Curry and overall has been the superior playoff performer? Seems weird, and I actually think highly of Curry.

[Dr. Lemon]

The Curry ranking dissolves any possible validity this list could have.

[Kobe_Bryant]

This. How is Curry gonna be maybe 5 spots ahead of KD when KD has the clear longevity edge over Curry and overall has been the superior playoff performer? Seems weird, and I actually think highly of Curry.

durant sucks. hes easily 10 spots behind curry

garnett is winning this round and dr J wins the next one. then maybe we will discuss durant. but something tells me dirks taking that one

[1987_Lakers]

durant sucks. hes easily 10 spots behind curry

garnett is winning this round and dr J wins the next one. then maybe we will discuss durant. but something tells me dirks taking that one

Just like Kobe is 10 spots behind LeBron on this list?

[Turbo Slayer]

Damn nice ass list.

[RRR3]

Who the **** is putting Moses Malone,Jerry West and Oscar Robertson over KD and Erving :facepalm
Your hero isn’t top 15 cope.

[8Ball]

This. How is Curry gonna be maybe 5 spots ahead of KD when KD has the clear longevity edge over Curry and overall has been the superior playoff performer? Seems weird, and I actually think highly of Curry.

Curry changed the game a lot more than Durant did.

Curry's impact on modern NBA is more than Durant's impact.

Curry did lead a 73 win team which is a feat Durant won't match. 2 MVPs. 3 chips where he played well.

[TheCorporation]

Kevin Garnett

[Kobe_Bryant]

Kawhi's 2019 playoff run was easily better then any playoff run Kareem ever had.

Being stuck in a prison hotel with no fans doesn't count as real basketball.

2021 kawhi led the playoffs in offensive win shares but he got injured just like 5 other superstars did due to the tightly crammed schedule.

Not sure who doesn't want to play with kawhi. I hope you're not referring to the retard westbrick hahahahha

kareem in the 1971 playoffs averaged 27/14 on 52%
kareem in the 1971 finals averaged 27/19 on 61%
he eliminated the wilt/west/baylor/goodrich lakers

kareem in the 1980 playoffs averaged 32/12 with 4 blocks on 57%
kareem in the 1980 finals averaged 33/14 with 5 blocks on 55%
he eliminated the Dr J, cheeks, dawkins, bibby 76ers

[Kobe_Bryant]

Just like Kobe is 10 spots behind LeBron on this list?

thats the plan

[Kobe_Bryant]

Kevin Garnett

this ^

[Kobe_Bryant]

Curry changed the game a lot more than Durant did.

Curry's impact on modern NBA is more than Durant's impact.

Curry did lead a 73 win team which is a feat Durant won't match. 2 MVPs. 3 chips where he played well.

only the regular season was changed. the playoffs is more suited to durants style

you need to start watching games

[dankok8]

Current Vote Tally

Julius Erving - 8 (jalbert009, L. Kizzle, SouBeachTalents, Overdrive, warriorfan, Round Mound, Phoenix, Clipper Revival)
Kevin Durant - 8 (Manny98, 8Ball, 1987_Lakers, nayte, MadDog, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Chick Stern, Bankaii)
Kevin Garnett - 5 (dankok8, RRR3, Cold soul, SaintzFury13, TheCorporation)
Dirk Nowitzki - 2 (Gonzaldo, ELITEpower23)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2)
Karl Malone - 1 (Magic is Magic)

[L.Kizzle]

Dr J's Sixers were a much more talented team than Moses' Rockets though. I think Dr J's NBA peak is worse than Moses' NBA peak and when they won in 83 Moses was clearly the best player on the team. If we include ABA Doctor, that may be a different story but ABA was a much weaker and more offensive minded league.

Dr J isn't a bad choice or anything but I don't see him with a strong case to above Moses who was better in the NBA.
Moses was not a better NBA player than Julius. And plus Moses was 27 and Doc already 32 by 83.

And uh, Moses literally joined Julius and the Sixers. Dr J made that team run not Maurice Cheeks and World B Free.

Moses had All-Stars Calvin Murphy and Rudy T on his team.
Bobby Jones was Docs only constant all-star before Moses joined in 82.

[Phoenix]

This. How is Curry gonna be maybe 5 spots ahead of KD when KD has the clear longevity edge over Curry and overall has been the superior playoff performer? Seems weird, and I actually think highly of Curry.

Yeah, in retrospect this is going to end up creating more space between Curry and KD than I initially intended when I made my Steph vote, but what can you do lol? I do think Steph warrants a higher ranking but not *that* wide a gap. Thing is, this clump of players between 11-20 is really tough, there are pretty much 15 guys who legitimately could be ranked in those spots, a handful aren't going to make it. Someone like Barkley could be left out and I've always viewed him as top 20. Guys like David Robinson, Mailman, Dirk, Dr.J, KG are still on the board with not enough remaining spots. All of them are legit top 20 level players.

[RRR3]

KD is so overrated. Curry is easily better I have no problem with the gap.

[Sulico]

Where is this KG love coming from?

Dirk did everything KG did, but without forming a superteam.

[RRR3]

Where is this KG love coming from?

Dirk did everything KG did, but without forming a superteam.
Dirk’s entire legacy is based on LeBron choking.

[Sulico]

Dirk’s entire legacy is based on LeBron choking.

I don't know what this made up term means.

There is no human in the world that goes to NBA finals and decides that he's gonna try to win at 50% of his ability. Everybody try to win as hard as they can.

Injuries or suspensions can leave some questions open, but Dirk and his Mavs won fully healthy Miami.

[dankok8]

Moses was not a better NBA player than Julius. And plus Moses was 27 and Doc already 32 by 83.

And uh, Moses literally joined Julius and the Sixers. Dr J made that team run not Maurice Cheeks and World B Free.

Moses had All-Stars Calvin Murphy and Rudy T on his team.
Bobby Jones was Docs only constant all-star before Moses joined in 82.

Moses had Rudy T who made his last all-star game in 1979 and Murphy who made his only all-star game in 1979 as well. By the early 80's when Moses was at his peak, those guys were just solid players and you can't compare that to Dr J's Sixers that had Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones, Doug Collins, Darrell Dawkins... The Sixers had all those guys in the early 80's before Moses came over. That was an incredibly talented team and unlike the Rockets also a two-way team with great defenders.

I don't think it's an easy argument to make that peak Julius was better then peak Moses. Then again I was a bit harsh towards the Doctor. He was the kind of player to raise his game in big moments so he was better than his regular season stats.

[expansionera]

Oscar shouldn’t be top 20, Kobe should be under Durant, Curry should be under Kobe.

List is all ****ed up, KD is the best player not yet voted in

[SaintzFury13]

Where is this KG love coming from?

Dirk did everything KG did, but without forming a superteam.

KG was an elite defender. Dirk wasn't.

[colts19]

Oscar shouldn’t be top 20, Kobe should be under Durant, Curry should be under Kobe.

List is all ****ed up, KD is the best player not yet voted in

KAJ, disagrees with you. He has Big O as good or better than Magic. John Wooden also disagrees with you he said Big O was the best player ever at least until Bird came along. Just saying.

[expansionera]

KAJ, disagrees with you. He has Big O as good or better than Magic. John Wooden also disagrees with you he said Big O was the best player ever at least until Bird came along. Just saying.

Who cares about those old ass ******? Of course they are gonna say their contemporaries are the best, have you seen Dr. J’s top ten list? :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Who cares about those old ass ******? Of course they are gonna say their contemporaries are the best, have you seen Dr. J’s top ten list? :lol

I always find it funny when fans hold past players opinions on these top ten lists on a high level. Barkley for example has Elgin Baylor in his top 10. :lol

[Jasper]

not having Hondo and mailman in top 20 would be disloyal(.)

hondo

[gonzaldo]

KG was an elite defender. Dirk wasn't.

Dirk was clearly a better scorer and playoff performer and with better longevity too. both had the same number of playoff games and Dirk had 7 more ppg on a better efficiency. 7!

[dankok8]

Dirk was clearly a better scorer and playoff performer and with better longevity too. both had the same number of playoff games and Dirk had 7 more ppg on a better efficiency. 7!

Career playoff averages paint a misleading picture because Dirk didn't make the playoffs his first two or his last three seasons which are the worst seasons of his career. KG on the other hand played a large proportion of his playoff games out of his prime.

Quick comparison of top 10 postseason stretches:

1999-2008 Garnett: 22.3 ppg, 12.7 rpg (2.7 o) , 4.5 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.6 bpg on 52.3 %TS (-0.2 rTS) with 2.9 topg
2002-2011 Dirk: 26.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg (1.6 o), 2.7 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.0 bpg on 58.5 %TS (+5.2 rTS) with 2.4 topg

3.8 ppg edge on 5.4% better relative efficiency is nothing to sneeze at I admit but Garnett's edge in offensive rebounding and assist numbers is noticeable and it does bridge the offensive gap a bit. More importantly Dirk is an average defender while Garnett is among the GOAT's in that department and we know how important big man defense is.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Current Vote Tally

Julius Erving - 8 (jalbert009, L. Kizzle, SouBeachTalents, Overdrive, warriorfan, Round Mound, Phoenix, Clipper Revival)
Kevin Durant - 8 (Manny98, 8Ball, 1987_Lakers, nayte, MadDog, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Chick Stern, Bankaii)
Kevin Garnett - 5 (dankok8, RRR3, Cold soul, SaintzFury13, TheCorporation)
Dirk Nowitzki - 2 (Gonzaldo, ELITEpower23)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2)
Karl Malone - 1 (Magic is Magic)


i guess il vote Dr J

[gonzaldo]

Career playoff averages paint a misleading picture because Dirk didn't make the playoffs his first two or his last three seasons which are the worst seasons of his career. KG on the other hand played a large proportion of his playoff games out of his prime.
The last seasn KG played in playoffs he was 37. The last season Dirk played in the playoffs.. he was 37. So what does it matter he didnt play when he was 39? KG didnt either. 1998-2008 fror KG is a nice stretch of... only 6 seasons, because he managed to miss playoffs with wolves in his prime. In the same time Dirk played twice as many games

[colts19]

Who cares about those old ass ******? Of course they are gonna say their contemporaries are the best, have you seen Dr. J’s top ten list? :lol







why should anyone hold the opinion of someone on an internet BB forum higher than that of one of the greatest players and one of the greatest coaches of all time?

[dankok8]

The last seasn KG played in playoffs he was 37. The last season Dirk played in the playoffs.. he was 37. So what does it matter he didnt play when he was 39? KG didnt either. 1998-2008 fror KG is a nice stretch of... only 6 seasons, because he managed to miss playoffs with wolves in his prime. In the same time Dirk played twice as many games

It matters because KG's stats were diluted by playing a lot of postseason games out of his prime whereas Dirk played little to none out of his prime. Therefore, career stats are skewed unfairly in Dirk's favor.

[RRR3]

Is it still tied between Dr. J and KD? Or is KD up? How are we ending this?

[dankok8]

Is it still tied between Dr. J and KD? Or is KD up? How are we ending this?

It's 8 for Durant, 8 for Erving and 5 for Garnett. Someone has to get at least a two vote lead to win.

[outofstomach]

casting my vote for Durant, it’s really sad how trolls can’t stop for something as serious as this thread, it’s baffling how Curry who is literally infamous for not performing up to standard in the ****ing playoffs is higher than Durant who literally has carried his ass to two rings, like this is really stupid bro

durant is a way better scorer and a better defender, the only thing that Curry has over him at large is shooting and playmaking

[MadDog]

casting my vote for Durant, it’s really sad how trolls can’t stop for something as serious as this thread, it’s baffling how Curry who is literally infamous for not performing up to standard in the ****ing playoffs is higher than Durant who literally has carried his ass to two rings, like this is really stupid bro

durant is a way better scorer and a better defender, the only thing that Curry has over him at large is shooting and playmaking

The notion that Playoff Curry isn't "up to standard" is weird. He averages 2 more points in the playoffs and on one percentage point less lol. I agree about the trolls though. You can see the agendas a mile away. Fans are going to be biased, but a few of these votes are based purely on envy and resentment.

[outofstomach]

The notion that Playoff Curry isn't "up to standard" is weird. He averages 2 more points in the playoffs and on one percentage point less lol. I agree about the trolls though. You can see the agendas a mile away. Fans are going to be biased, but a few of these votes are based purely on envy and resentment.playoffs is a blanket statement, moreso meant finals

[Phoenix]

Durant is a better player than Steph in isolation, on both ends, but Steph's gravity and ability to warp defenses with his range shooting AND off-ball movement opens up things in a way that KD doesn't. KD is an iso scorer, an unstoppable one, but defenses can stay at home more on his teammates so they're less effective. Meanwhile, Steph commands so much attention when he's off-ball that the defense can get twisted into knots trying to keep their eye on him, and then his other teammates are greater threats. There's a reason why the Warriors record is better with Steph/no KD than KD/ no Steph when they were together. The offense running through KD was more predictable, more 'give the ball to KD when the offense stalls', less movement.

I don't feel there should be *this* much distance between Steph at 12 and whatever KD ends up at, but I can see why Curry is ranked ahead. He's going to end up with the greater legacy, the one that pioneered the modern 3point era. He also has KD beat in MVPs, and won a chip without him( KD hasn't done the reverse so far). And...the Warriors did beat the Thunder in 2016 in what was a fair, no excuses matchup. There are reasonable bullet points for preferring Steph. KD is the better finals performer overall, but I'm not sure that puts him ahead considering everything else.

[dankok8]

Ok let's get a couple of more votes in to call this one. Please vote either Dr J or Durant.

[RRR3]

Dr. J

[Chick Stern]

Durant

[HoopsNY]

The notion that Playoff Curry isn't "up to standard" is weird. He averages 2 more points in the playoffs and on one percentage point less lol. I agree about the trolls though. You can see the agendas a mile away. Fans are going to be biased, but a few of these votes are based purely on envy and resentment.


Durant is a better player than Steph in isolation, on both ends, but Steph's gravity and ability to warp defenses with his range shooting AND off-ball movement opens up things in a way that KD doesn't. KD is an iso scorer, an unstoppable one, but defenses can stay at home more on his teammates so they're less effective. Meanwhile, Steph commands so much attention when he's off-ball that the defense can get twisted into knots trying to keep their eye on him, and then his other teammates are greater threats. There's a reason why the Warriors record is better with Steph/no KD than KD/ no Steph when they were together. The offense running through KD was more predictable, more 'give the ball to KD when the offense stalls', less movement.

I don't feel there should be *this* much distance between Steph at 12 and whatever KD ends up at, but I can see why Curry is ranked ahead. He's going to end up with the greater legacy, the one that pioneered the modern 3point era. He also has KD beat in MVPs, and won a chip without him( KD hasn't done the reverse so far). And...the Warriors did beat the Thunder in 2016 in what was a fair, no excuses matchup. There are reasonable bullet points for preferring Steph. KD is the better finals performer overall, but I'm not sure that puts him ahead considering everything else.

KD won 2 FMVPs to Steph's 0 playing alongside each other. His WCF numbers also trump Steph's during that time. The reality is that they aren't as close as people seem. You literally can't have a bigger metric than playing alongside one another where one player outperforms the other.

[HoopsNY]

I do agree that Kevin Garnett shouldn't be this low. But there's a few others who shouldn't this low either.

Either way, voting Garnett.


I vote KG should be higher.


Kevin Garnett shouldn’t be this low. David Robinson should be getting some love soon too IMO but I don’t expect him to be voted in so I’ll go with KG.

KG failed miserably from 1997-2004 in the playoffs in the biggest spots, passing up shots, having a lot of turnovers, and then misses the playoffs three years in a row during his prime. He is arguably the most overrated player of all time. Guaranteed if KG doesn't join a super-team in Boston, his legacy would be rated far less.

[HoopsNY]

I've posted this elsewhere but this is needed here too concerning KG's woes in the playoffs. Here are KG's performances in the deciding games and his 4th quarter stats:

'97 vs. HOU: 17 pts (7-18) on 44% | 2 pts (1-3) on 33%

'98 vs. SEA: 7 pts (3-11) on 27%, 10 TOs | 0 pts (0-3) on 0%

'99 vs. SA: 20 pts (6-20) on 30% | 9 pts (3-8) on 37%

'00 vs. POR: 17 pts (5-20) on 25% | 4 pts (1-7) on 14%

'01 vs. SA: 19 pts (6-13) on 46% | 2 pts (1-2) on 50%

'02 vs. DAL: 22 pts (9-19) on 47%, 6 TOs | 3 pts (1-5) on 20%

'03 vs. LAL: 18 pts (9-21) on 43%, 3 TOs | 4 pts (2-5) on 40%, 2 TOs

'04 vs. LAL: 22 pts (9-20) on 45%, 8 TOs | 4 pts (2-5) on 40%, 3 TOs

Then he proceeds to miss the playoffs for the next 3 years (all prime years). Only KG gets away with this. Every other top 20 player gets scrutinized to no end, but KG gets excused largely because of accolades after joining a superteam.

He was getting outplayed by guys like Gugliotta, Peeler, Brandon, and freaking Dean Garrett. Heck, even Spreewell and Wally Sczcerbiak were outperforming KG in the biggest spots.

[dankok8]

KD won 2 FMVPs to Steph's 0 playing alongside each other. His WCF numbers also trump Steph's during that time. The reality is that they aren't as close as people seem. You literally can't have a bigger metric than playing alongside one another where one player outperforms the other.

Steph could have won the 2018 FMVP. He happened to have a terrible Game 3 while KD had a historic one but he was arguably the better player in all three other games. Their playoff stats in 2017 and 2018 were very comparable too. And it was Durant playing off of Curry's gravity, not the other way around.

Of course Curry is not way better than Durant but it's not a travesty to have him higher on the all time list.

[dankok8]

I've posted this elsewhere but this is needed here too concerning KG's woes in the playoffs. Here are KG's performances in the deciding games and his 4th quarter stats:

'97 vs. HOU: 17 pts (7-18) on 44% | 2 pts (1-3) on 33%

'98 vs. SEA: 7 pts (3-11) on 27%, 10 TOs | 0 pts (0-3) on 0%

'99 vs. SA: 20 pts (6-20) on 30% | 9 pts (3-8) on 37%

'00 vs. POR: 17 pts (5-20) on 25% | 4 pts (1-7) on 14%

'01 vs. SA: 19 pts (6-13) on 46% | 2 pts (1-2) on 50%

'02 vs. DAL: 22 pts (9-19) on 47%, 6 TOs | 3 pts (1-5) on 20%

'03 vs. LAL: 18 pts (9-21) on 43%, 3 TOs | 4 pts (2-5) on 40%, 2 TOs

'04 vs. LAL: 22 pts (9-20) on 45%, 8 TOs | 4 pts (2-5) on 40%, 3 TOs

Then he proceeds to miss the playoffs for the next 3 years (all prime years). Only KG gets away with this. Every other top 20 player gets scrutinized to no end, but KG gets excused largely because of accolades after joining a superteam.

He was getting outplayed by guys like Gugliotta, Peeler, Brandon, and freaking Dean Garrett. Heck, even Spreewell and Wally Sczcerbiak were outperforming KG in the biggest spots.

Ok I got a few problems with this:

- only 1999 onwards is prime KG
- why post only the last game of the series?
- why not include rebounds, passing, defense etc.?

[HoopsNY]

Ok I got a few problems with this:

- only 1999 onwards is prime KG
- why post only the last game of the series?
- why not include rebounds, passing, defense etc.?
Turnovers neutralize assists, as you know better than I do.

The point is that KG folded in these spots. I was the biggest KG fan and the worst part was seeing him pass up the ball in big spots to his teammates when they needed his scoring the most.

I'm not saying that he was absent in such series. He wasn't. But relative to his peers?

LeBron is crucified for woeful turnovers and passing up shots in big games to no end, but KG gets a pass?

Kobe gets criticized for missing shots and his playmaking and defense is never mentioned.

Bird is criticized for a series of games where he didn't show up with his scoring.

Even if we look at 1999 onward, the premise still remains the same. Furthermore, 1997 and 1998, KG was an all-star. But these performances are important because he had his teammates outplaying him. Not one but several of them. You can't rank a guy so high when guys who aren't even top 200 are outplaying him.

We can choose to look at all the games, but the point still stands is that in the biggest games, KG was less than stellar by a significant margin, on a regular basis. James Harden gets scrutinized like that. Does anyone mention his rebounds and assists in big games?

[dankok8]

Turnovers neutralize assists, as you know better than I do.

The point is that KG folded in these spots. I was the biggest KG fan and the worst part was seeing him pass up the ball in big spots to his teammates when they needed his scoring the most.

I'm not saying that he was absent in such series. He wasn't. But relative to his peers?

LeBron is crucified for woeful turnovers and passing up shots in big games to no end, but KG gets a pass?

Kobe gets criticized for missing shots and his playmaking and defense is never mentioned.

Bird is criticized for a series of games where he didn't show up with his scoring.

Even if we look at 1999 onward, the premise still remains the same. Furthermore, 1997 and 1998, KG was an all-star. But these performances are important because he had his teammates outplaying him. Not one but several of them. You can't rank a guy so high when guys who aren't even top 200 are outplaying him.

We can choose to look at all the games, but the point still stands is that in the biggest games, KG was less than stellar by a significant margin, on a regular basis. James Harden gets scrutinized like that. Does anyone mention his rebounds and assists in big games?

Garnett's cumulative playoff stats are marginally worse than Duncan's as I said a few pages back. And I mean MARGINALLY...

Postseason 1999-2008

Kevin Garnett: 22.3 ppg, 12.7 rpg (2.7 o) , 4.5 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.6 bpg on 52.3 %TS (-0.2 rTS) with 2.9 topg
Tim Duncan: 23.6 ppg, 13.0 rpg (3.6 o), 3.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 2.7 bpg on 55.2 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 3.1 topg

Basically Duncan scored 3% better in relative efficiency thanks to his better iso scoring but that really isn't a big edge. KG actually has more assists and fewer turnovers and and I'd call them pretty even on defense, both the elite of the elite. Would you say Duncan was also a bad playoff performer? Because if KG was then Duncan was too.

EDIT: Obviously I'm not saying Duncan isn't a bit better than Garnett because of intangibles. Garnett had a legit weakness of not taking over games but his numbers were still amazing.

[RRR3]

Turnovers neutralize assists, as you know better than I do.

The point is that KG folded in these spots. I was the biggest KG fan and the worst part was seeing him pass up the ball in big spots to his teammates when they needed his scoring the most.

I'm not saying that he was absent in such series. He wasn't. But relative to his peers?

LeBron is crucified for woeful turnovers and passing up shots in big games to no end, but KG gets a pass?

Kobe gets criticized for missing shots and his playmaking and defense is never mentioned.

Bird is criticized for a series of games where he didn't show up with his scoring.

Even if we look at 1999 onward, the premise still remains the same. Furthermore, 1997 and 1998, KG was an all-star. But these performances are important because he had his teammates outplaying him. Not one but several of them. You can't rank a guy so high when guys who aren't even top 200 are outplaying him.

We can choose to look at all the games, but the point still stands is that in the biggest games, KG was less than stellar by a significant margin, on a regular basis. James Harden gets scrutinized like that. Does anyone mention his rebounds and assists in big games?
Why are we holding KG to the same standards as LeBron? You obviously just don’t like him lol.

[NBAGOAT]

Problem with low amount of games in the playoffs is you can’t really use impact metrics too definitively. In Curry’s case with Kd, kd did have better final series but there was a good case curry was still impacting the game more 1 of those playoff runs if not both(can’t be sure). We know this was absolutely true during the regular season at least. Kg did disappoint in the playoffs but I don’t think some people realize how bad the twolves were in the 00s besides 04. It’s kobe 06, wade 09 type situations year after year and even worse some years. Wolves were playing guys who weren’t close to competent starters. By Rapm Troy Hudson is one of the worst defenders of the modern era to throw shade at one guy.

[Phoenix]

KD won 2 FMVPs to Steph's 0 playing alongside each other. His WCF numbers also trump Steph's during that time. The reality is that they aren't as close as people seem. You literally can't have a bigger metric than playing alongside one another where one player outperforms the other.

Which is why I said KD is the better player in a vaccum. Put both of them on the same team and KD ended up as the alpha. That said, Steph in 2017 and 18 played well enough to be FMVP and it seemed like he was trending to win in 18 at one point.

The Warriors being better with Steph than KD is tangible proven in the W/L records and just as relevant a metric. Both of them have great portability but KD is more of a classic ISO scorer while Steph is a different animal as far as gravity. So is having an extra MVP, which is accomplished over 82 games, another fair metric to use. Yes, KD won the FMVP, so he was 'better' than Steph was in those short sample sizes. Steph beating KD in their only head to head also can't be discounted( yes, that's a team situation, but that was an evenly matched contest so the 'best player' should have broken the stalemate).

Its possible to have a 'worse' player be ranked above a better one. I happen to think Barkley was better than Mailman peak for peak but I( and most others it seems) rank the latter higher. I don't know how these things work, it's all subjective opinion. If the entire league wasn't effectively bent to the Warriors whim( and Steph was the engine behind that, with or without KD) then I may be inclined to rank Durant higher. So admittedly there are intangible reasons in the rankings but that's not unique to the players we are discussing here.

[L.Kizzle]

When did KG become better than Barkley and Malone?

[MadDog]

KD won 2 FMVPs to Steph's 0 playing alongside each other. His WCF numbers also trump Steph's during that time. The reality is that they aren't as close as people seem. You literally can't have a bigger metric than playing alongside one another where one player outperforms the other.

You're welcome to your opinion, but how's that relevant to my post? :confusedshrug: I was speaking on Curry's overall postseason play. Not the comparison between KD.

[Jasper]

When did KG become better than Barkley and Malone?

excellent point KG had never acquired a MVP , nor multiple chips ... He has ONE ring and all-star appearances , that are watered down from the 80's.

[RRR3]

excellent point KG had never acquired a MVP , nor multiple chips ... He has ONE ring and all-star appearances , that are watered down from the 80's.
:facepalm

[FilmyCogTurner]

excellent point KG had never acquired a MVP , nor multiple chips ... He has ONE ring and all-star appearances , that are watered down from the 80's.

2004 would like a word with you...

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fa.espncdn.com%2Fphoto%2F2016%2F09 23%2Fr130126_2001x1692cc.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

[FilmyCogTurner]

The Curry - KD debate has a lot of merit and I could see a case being made for either one.

Raw basketball output KD takes the nod as we all saw when they shared the floor together however team success combined with overall player ability which Curry isn't that far off from KD either has to factor into the equation also.

I say KD but then he did join Stephs team and had zero chips up until that point but then again Curry isn't the player KD is. :confusedshrug:

[HoopsNY]

Why are we holding KG to the same standards as LeBron? You obviously just don’t like him lol.

I'm really not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I mentioned LeBron, Kobe, Bird, and Harden in the same post, yet somehow you isolated LeBron to claim "I just don't like him."

This wasn't a post about LeBron. I was merely highlighting how other star players get held to higher standards. KG is unanimously viewed as a top 20 player. Some have him in the top 15 (Backpicks has him as high as 8th).

If anything, this post absolves LeBron of such criticisms, as his playoff woes are nowhere near KG's.

[HoopsNY]

Garnett's cumulative playoff stats are marginally worse than Duncan's as I said a few pages back. And I mean MARGINALLY...

Postseason 1999-2008

Kevin Garnett: 22.3 ppg, 12.7 rpg (2.7 o) , 4.5 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.6 bpg on 52.3 %TS (-0.2 rTS) with 2.9 topg
Tim Duncan: 23.6 ppg, 13.0 rpg (3.6 o), 3.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 2.7 bpg on 55.2 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 3.1 topg

Basically Duncan scored 3% better in relative efficiency thanks to his better iso scoring but that really isn't a big edge. KG actually has more assists and fewer turnovers and and I'd call them pretty even on defense, both the elite of the elite. Would you say Duncan was also a bad playoff performer? Because if KG was then Duncan was too.

EDIT: Obviously I'm not saying Duncan isn't a bit better than Garnett because of intangibles. Garnett had a legit weakness of not taking over games but his numbers were still amazing.

Duncan's 2003 playoffs and finals single handedly destroys anything else that KG ever did in his prime. That alone is enough to see that there is no comparison between the two. 1999 further adds to that point.

Here's food for thought. Look at the deciding game for KG and Duncan against LAL, a team that they both faced that same year.

KG: 18/12/5/3/1 with 3 TOs on 43%
Duncan: 37/16/4/0/2 with 3 TOs on 64%

How about the closeout game in the finals against NJ?

Game 6 vs. NJN: 21/20/10/0/8 on 47%

For all of this talk about KG's defensive and passing abilities, Duncan literally almost had a quadruple-double against an elite defensive team. Jersey was 1st in DRTG in 2003.

We all know that you could rely on Duncan. You simply couldn't say the same about KG. Not to mention, he couldn't make his team competitive in the three years following 2004. But hell, even Pau Gasol (who was half the player KG was at the time), was able to lead his team to the playoffs in 2005. He had a better cast, but that's exactly why KG was so overrated, his cast was far more necessary than any of the greats he's consistently compared to.

Kobe is consistently ranked 11th-13th on most lists, and KG is not too far behind. Yet Kobe led a team of nobodies in 2006 to the playoffs and 45 wins while KG's T-Wolves won just 33 games with a combination of Wally Z and Davis putting up 20 PPG, missing the playoffs entirely, by a mile.

[NBAGOAT]

Duncan's 2003 playoffs and finals single handedly destroys anything else that KG ever did in his prime. That alone is enough to see that there is no comparison between the two. 1999 further adds to that point.

Here's food for thought. Look at the deciding game for KG and Duncan against LAL, a team that they both faced that same year.

KG: 18/12/5/3/1 with 3 TOs on 43%
Duncan: 37/16/4/0/2 with 3 TOs on 64%

How about the closeout game in the finals against NJ?

Game 6 vs. NJN: 21/20/10/0/8 on 47%

For all of this talk about KG's defensive and passing abilities, Duncan literally almost had a quadruple-double against an elite defensive team. Jersey was 1st in DRTG in 2003.

We all know that you could rely on Duncan. You simply couldn't say the same about KG. Not to mention, he couldn't make his team competitive in the three years following 2004. But hell, even Pau Gasol (who was half the player KG was at the time), was able to lead his team to the playoffs in 2005. He had a better cast, but that's exactly why KG was so overrated, his cast was far more necessary than any of the greats he's consistently compared to.

Kobe is consistently ranked 11th-13th on most lists, and KG is not too far behind. Yet Kobe led a team of nobodies in 2006 to the playoffs and 45 wins while KG's T-Wolves won just 33 games with a combination of Wally Z and Davis putting up 20 PPG, missing the playoffs entirely, by a mile.

Lamar Odom is better than Wally and far better than Davis so wasn’t all nobodies. Ppg isn’t everything especially when you’re not even efficient like Davis was. Also all your point proves is kobe was better on 06, no one disputes that. I would argue kgs peak in 04 is better than Kobe’s peak and that’s not an unpopular opinion. Bit more unpopular but I think his 03 is better than any kobe years. Carried Wally and nobodies to 51 wins and a 4 seed. Meanwhile 03 is considered one of Kobe’s better years and still part of Shaqs prime and they won 50.

Edit: and no one playoff run wont singlehandedly make something non debatable. People in the top 15-20 have primes that go 15 seasons long. Guessing you’re not the type to just exclude lebron from the goat convo forever because of 2011

[HoopsNY]

Lamar Odom is better than Wally and far better than Davis so wasn’t all nobodies. Ppg isn’t everything especially when you’re not even efficient like Davis was. Also all your point proves is kobe was better on 06, no one disputes that. I would argue kgs peak in 04 is better than Kobe’s peak and that’s not an unpopular opinion. Bit more unpopular but I think his 03 is better than any kobe years. Carried Wally and nobodies to 51 wins and a 4 seed. Meanwhile 03 is considered one of Kobe’s better years and still part of Shaqs prime and they won 50.

Edit: and no one playoff run wont singlehandedly make something non debatable. People in the top 15-20 have primes that go 15 seasons long. Guessing you’re not the type to just exclude lebron from the goat convo forever because of 2011

My point wasn't to draw an exact parallel. The point is that players of a similar standing saw better success by a significant margin. KG's playmaking tends to get overrated while his passing was elite for a forward. Yes Odom was better than Davis, but the difference between 33 wins and 45 wins is significant. KG's offense wasn't impactful, including his "playmaking," which led to a 28th ranked offense.

The point about Duncan and KG's 2003 performances was in response to dankok's post where he assessed their prime playoff stats. While on paper Duncan has edged KG, the stretch doesn't account for the fact that KG failed on a consistent basis.

Duncan's 2003 is significant because it proves his ability to takeover games and impact games in a meaningful way, in every aspect of the game. KG impacted games for sure, but it didn't have proven results relative to his peers.

Much is made of Ewing, Malone, Robinson, Harden, Kobe, Bird, and other players where their failures are concerned. For KG, the status quo seems to always be, "his cast sucked." We almost never hear his failures being highlighted. Just look at the excuses on this forum and how they've piled up. Any other superstar and you wouldn't hear the end of it.

[NBAGOAT]

My point wasn't to draw an exact parallel. The point is that players of a similar standing saw better success by a significant margin. KG's playmaking tends to get overrated while his passing was elite for a forward. Yes Odom was better than Davis, but the difference between 33 wins and 45 wins is significant. KG's offense wasn't impactful, including his "playmaking," which led to a 28th ranked offense.

The point about Duncan and KG's 2003 performances was in response to dankok's post where he assessed their prime playoff stats. While on paper Duncan has edged KG, the stretch doesn't account for the fact that KG failed on a consistent basis.

Duncan's 2003 is significant because it proves his ability to takeover games and impact games in a meaningful way, in every aspect of the game. KG impacted games for sure, but it didn't have proven results relative to his peers.

Much is made of Ewing, Malone, Robinson, Harden, Kobe, Bird, and other players where their failures are concerned. For KG, the status quo seems to always be, "his cast sucked." We almost never hear his failures being highlighted. Just look at the excuses on this forum and how they've piled up. Any other superstar and you wouldn't hear the end of it.

Well his cast plainly put did suck and that’s mostly the reason why results weren’t there. He had the worst casts compared to any top 20 great besides maybe Oscar. That’s what happens when you have terrible ownership and the joe Smith debacle. The one time Minnesota put a good cast around him and not even a remarkable one in 04, he was the clear mvp in a league with shaq, Duncan, kobe, Dirk etc. when he had an elite cast in Boston, he showed he was capable of dominating in the playoffs and looking like the best player in the league even though he was at the end of his prime.

Also kgs offense was a big positive impact even on a 28th ranked offense, every impact stat said so. Now ofc kobe was more impactful on offense that year and likely even overall that year too but as I said before that wasn’t kgs peak, his best years are 03-04. Curry was arguably the best offensive player in the league this year and not far off from his peak where he was in the convo for goat offensive player and the warriors were 20th, huge liabilities can bring you down no matter how good your star is.

Fair enough about Duncan, I’m less inclined to argue about him compared to say kobe and some others and few guys in history have a run like 03. Still it’s a fact for most of his prime and almost his whole career, he had quality casts around him whether it was Robinson or Parker/ginobili. Don’t forget the Spurs usually had good role players and that does matter more than people think. Duncan is better but I think you’re overrating how dominant he is in the playoffs for his career just based on 03. Does not matter if he’s “capable”, he was not nearly as dominant many of the other years in his prime. Guys level of play changes from year to year.

Kgs failures may get glossed over on realgm but not here. It gets cited all time he missed the playoffs from 05-07(when everyone knows he wasn’t the best player in the league those years and his rosters were putrid) or how Dirk went crazy one series vs him and that “proves” his defense isn’t impactful in the playoffs

Edit: yes hakeems casts aren’t good but they’re still better than kgs imo. Again back to having better role players

[dankok8]

Duncan's 2003 playoffs and finals single handedly destroys anything else that KG ever did in his prime. That alone is enough to see that there is no comparison between the two. 1999 further adds to that point.

Here's food for thought. Look at the deciding game for KG and Duncan against LAL, a team that they both faced that same year.

KG: 18/12/5/3/1 with 3 TOs on 43%
Duncan: 37/16/4/0/2 with 3 TOs on 64%

How about the closeout game in the finals against NJ?

Game 6 vs. NJN: 21/20/10/0/8 on 47%

For all of this talk about KG's defensive and passing abilities, Duncan literally almost had a quadruple-double against an elite defensive team. Jersey was 1st in DRTG in 2003.

We all know that you could rely on Duncan. You simply couldn't say the same about KG. Not to mention, he couldn't make his team competitive in the three years following 2004. But hell, even Pau Gasol (who was half the player KG was at the time), was able to lead his team to the playoffs in 2005. He had a better cast, but that's exactly why KG was so overrated, his cast was far more necessary than any of the greats he's consistently compared to.

Kobe is consistently ranked 11th-13th on most lists, and KG is not too far behind. Yet Kobe led a team of nobodies in 2006 to the playoffs and 45 wins while KG's T-Wolves won just 33 games with a combination of Wally Z and Davis putting up 20 PPG, missing the playoffs entirely, by a mile.

How about KG's massive Game 7 against Sacramento in 2004? You're cherrypicking a bit here. Of course Duncan was a better go-to scorer but overall he's only a marginally better player. Even 2003 Duncan vs. 2004 Garnett isn't one sided at all. In 2005, Cassell played 59 games games. In 2006, Wally played just 40 games and Davis played just 36 games.

Again... my point isn't that Duncan is not a bit better than Garnett but rather that if KG is a bad playoff performer than so is Duncan.

[dankok8]

It's Erving and Durant tied with 9 votes right now. I switch my vote to the Doctor. Hopefully we can wrap this thread up soon.

[Round Mound]

After the Doc and Durant its gotta be Barkley. His prime and peak is GOAT worthy aswell.

[RRR3]

After the Doc and Durant its gotta be Barkley. His prime and peak is GOAT worthy aswell.
Sure if you don’t care about defense.

[HoopsNY]

How about KG's massive Game 7 against Sacramento in 2004? You're cherrypicking a bit here. Of course Duncan was a better go-to scorer but overall he's only a marginally better player. Even 2003 Duncan vs. 2004 Garnett isn't one sided at all. In 2005, Cassell played 59 games games. In 2006, Wally played just 40 games and Davis played just 36 games.

I expect better than you brody. I'm the one cherry picking here when you've isolated game 7 vs. Sacramento against his first seven years? You've got to be kidding me. One game doesn't undo a long rap sheet of flaws for KG, where he was heavily criticized by everyone at the time because he had established himself as a choker.

2003 Duncan is one of the greatest individual efforts in league history, yet somehow KG's 2004 compares? No way.

And yes, Wally played 40 games and Davis 36, because they got traded for each other. That's a combined 76 games.


Again... my point isn't that Duncan is not a bit better than Garnett but rather that if KG is a bad playoff performer than so is Duncan.

Were you watching KG his first eight years in the league? No one honestly believed this and Duncan was looked at as the only viable counter to Shaq and Kobe.

KG's consistent first round exits on close out meltdowns is well known. There's absolutely no way that he compares to Duncan.

[Phoenix]

KG isn't taking the 2003 Spurs to the championship. I don't know what Duncan does with those early 2000's Wolves squads, but I'd have to imagine at least to the second round a few times. Peak for peak their scoring numbers( raw) look similar but Duncan was a more dependable offensive anchor when needed. I remember when he went toe to toe with Shaq in 2003 to close out the Lakers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_iN6qwvoS8

KG ain't doing that in that situation.

[dankok8]

@HoopsNY
@Phoenix

Guys I agree with you. I specifically said Duncan is better than Garnett. Garnett likely wouldn't lead the 2003 Spurs to a title.

My point was though... if KG's offensive numbers in the playoffs are bad then so are Duncan's because they are very similar. And clearly most people would disagree that Duncan was a subpar playoff performer. And I was in no way cherrypicking... I posted their cumulative playoff stats from 1999-2008.

As for rough shooting, Duncan had a few pretty subpar offensive series in his prime too.

1999 R1 vs. Wolves: 18.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg (4.3 o), 3.3 apg on 51.6 %TS (+0.5 rTS) with 1.8 topg
1999 WCF vs. Blazers: 16.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg (3.5 o), 2.5 apg on 54.7 %TS (+3.6 rTS) with 2.5 topg
2004 ECSF vs. Lakers: 20.7 ppg, 12.2 rpg (3.8 o), 3.3 apg on 53.4 %TS (+1.8 rTS) with 4.7 topg
2005 Finals vs. Pistons: 20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg (4.7 o), 2.1 apg on 47.1 %TS (-5.8 rTS) with 2.4 topg
2007 R1 vs. Nuggets: 20.2 ppg, 10.6 rpg (3.6 o), 5.4 apg on 49.2 %TS (-4.9 rTS) with 2.4 topg
2007 Finals vs. Cavaliers: 18.3 ppg, 11.5 rpg (4.0 o), 3.8 apg on 48.3 %TS (-5.8 rTS) with 2.8 topg

[Phoenix]

What was their 4th quarter playoff clutch stats like? I was trying to find something on that. To my memory it seemed like Duncan was generally more aggressive offensively down the stretch, but I don't know if the numbers back that up. Hence why I'm saying both of them dropped 23-25ppg at their peak, but just looking at their raw ppg on a sheet doesn't tell the entire story.

[dankok8]

What was their 4th quarter playoff clutch stats like? I was trying to find something on that. To my memory it seemed like Duncan was generally more aggressive offensively down the stretch, but I don't know if the numbers back that up. Hence why I'm saying both of them dropped 23-25ppg at their peak, but just looking at their raw ppg on a sheet doesn't tell the entire story.

It takes too long to get all the career data but it's available on NBA.com. I just browsed through it and didn't notice any big edge in playoff crunch-time scoring for Duncan circa 2003/2004.

[Kobe_Bryant]

It's Erving and Durant tied with 9 votes right now. I switch my vote to the Doctor. Hopefully we can wrap this thread up soon.

you never counted my vote for Dr J

[Phoenix]

you never counted my vote for Dr J

Hopefully it wasn't by accident.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Hopefully it wasn't by accident.

well what kind of list is this if you just don't count votes from people you don't like lol

[dankok8]

well what kind of list is this if you just don't count votes from people you don't like lol

You said you're voting for Dr J just to prevent Durant from winning.

[Phoenix]

well what kind of list is this if you just don't count votes from people you don't like lol


List


Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.



Trolls like yourself were probably in mind when that statement was written.

[MadDog]

well what kind of list is this if you just don't count votes from people you don't like lol

You're literally pretending to be Kobe Bryant. Why would he count your vote?

[000]

Harden

[Phoenix]

You're literally pretending to be Kobe Bryant. Why would he count your vote?

While being stupid enough to say that he's actively trying to keep Durant out of the top 20 for.......reasons.

[Phoenix]

Harden

:coleman:

[MadDog]

While being stupid enough to say that he's actively trying to keep Durant out of the top 20 for.......reasons.

The lack of self awareness is pure cringe lol. Having to post alongside this clown is a complete joke.

[000]

:coleman:

:confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

If Dr. J is ahead at this point you should just call it. More than enough time has passed for other people to cast their vote.

And you shouldn’t count Kenny’s votes the rest of the way. His only intent is to sabotage this list because he’s epically butthurt Kobe was left outside the top 10 :lol

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Julius Erving - 10 (jalbert009, L. Kizzle, SouBeachTalents, Overdrive, warriorfan, Round Mound, Phoenix, Clipper Revival, RRR3, dankok8)
Kevin Durant - 9 (Manny98, 8Ball, 1987_Lakers, nayte, MadDog, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Chick Stern, Bankaii, outofstomach)
Kevin Garnett - 3 (Cold soul, SaintzFury13, TheCorporation)
Dirk Nowitzki - 2 (Gonzaldo, ELITEpower23)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2)
Karl Malone - 1 (Magic is Magic)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)

Dr J wins. #17 thread is now open.

[outofstomach]

Harden

i thought about it myself but 16 is probably a bit generous, make a push for him more so 20-25 ish

30 at worse

[000]

i thought about it myself but 16 is probably a bit generous, make a push for him more so 20-25 ish

30 at worse
Took 2018 dubs to 7 with just the corpse of Chris Piss. Only shooting guard to win scoring + assist title.