Westbrook's leadership & floor generalship will challenge Lebron's for supremacy

[3ba11]

especially in practice where teammates always know who has the juice and can tell who the stronger force is.. They'll be giving the ball to Russ automatically/instinctively - not as a shot to Lebron - it's just standard procedure to give the ball to the most active/productive guy

So this could be another year where Lebron gets exposed - this time as an inferior force to Westbrook at this point in their careers.

The truth is that Westbrook has been doing the same thing as Lebron for years now, except at a higher production rate..

HE SIMPLY NEVER HAD SUPER-TEAMS, SO HE DIDN'T WIN LIKE LEBRON.

Yes Lebron is more efficient and "smarter", but the latter is subjective - they both play the same way, aka high turnover and high assist style, except Westbrook gets a lot more assists... The only REAL difference is that Lebron had super-teams and goat GM'ing to buffalo the league, while Westbrook was a smaller thinker and didn't pursue those aims - but none of that matters and Westbrook will challenge Lebron for floor generalship this year

[8Ball]

LeBron has been exposed as being superior to Jordan as a basketball player.

[MadDog]

For Lakers fans sake, they better not. Westbrook cannot be the driving force of a championship team. The offense has to funnel through AD or with the "floor generalship" of LeBron. Westbrook's formula simply isn't proven, and you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

[Phoenix]

A smarter, more efficient version of Westbrook likely wins a chip with the 2016 Thunder.

[3ba11]

A smarter, more efficient version of Westbrook likely wins a chip with the 2016 Thunder.


Westbrook was a baby and Lebron did the same thing in 2007 or 2015.. so when Lebron had Westbrook's non-super-team casts, he shot like garbage too

Lebron is the only 1st option that ever shot 35% in a playoff series and he did it twice - so he lost due to poor efficiency just like Westbrook.. And Westbrook often had to shoot more because he didn't have big 3's, which hurt his efficiency

You guys just make excuses for Lebron's poor efficiency - everything bad that Lebron does has an excuse, while Westbrook doesn't get those same excuses

[ShawkFactory]

especially in practice where teammates always know who has the juice and can tell who the stronger force is.. They'll be giving the ball to Russ automatically/instinctively - not as a shot to Lebron - it's just standard procedure to give the ball to the most active/productive guy

So this could be another year where Lebron gets exposed - this time as an inferior force to Westbrook at this point in their careers.

The truth is that Westbrook has been doing the same thing as Lebron for years now, except at a higher production rate..

HE SIMPLY NEVER HAD SUPER-TEAMS, SO HE DIDN'T WIN LIKE LEBRON.

Yes Lebron is more efficient and "smarter", but the latter is subjective - they both play the same way, aka high turnover and high assist style, except Westbrook gets a lot more assists... The only REAL difference is that Lebron had super-teams and goat GM'ing to buffalo the league, while Westbrook was a smaller thinker and didn't pursue those aims - but none of that matters and Westbrook will challenge Lebron for floor generalship this year

No, it isn't.

[3ba11]

No, it isn't.


Yes, it is - Lebron is #1 all-time in turnovers - he's literally the turnover king

And he routinely makes bad decisions in the clutch - over and over again... Dumb passes... Dumb shots... Stupid ball-dominance instead of ball movement (he doesn't employ the best strategy) etc, etc, etc

[Phoenix]

Westbrook was a baby and Lebron did the same thing in 2007 or 2015.. so when Lebron had Westbrook's non-super-team casts, he shot like garbage too

Lebron is the only 1st option that ever shot 35% in a playoff series and he did it twice - so he lost due to poor efficiency just like Westbrook.. And Westbrook often had to shoot more because he didn't have big 3's, which hurt his efficiency

You guys just make excuses for Lebron's poor efficiency - everything bad that Lebron does has an excuse, while Westbrook doesn't get those same excuses

He was 28 with 8 seasons in the league, the same age Jordan was when he won his first chip and had 7 seasons under his belt. Do you consider MJ a baby in 1991?

The Thunder were up 3-1 on the 73 win Warriors. A smarter, more efficient version of Westbrook doesn't, along with KD, choke that lead and a series with the Cavs would be even money.

[j3lademaster]

A smarter, more efficient version of Westbrook likely wins a chip with the 2016 Thunder.It really annoys me because Westbrook is one of my favorite current players and I have huge respect for the guy. Comparing him to Lebron isn't fair to him. He's just not as good and when the comparison gets made, and all it does it point out Russ's many flaws instead of highlighting what he's great at.

[3ba11]

He was 28 with 8 seasons in the league, the same age Jordan was when he won his first chip and had 7 seasons under his belt. Do you consider MJ a baby in 1991?


Lebron lost numerous series due to bad efficiency, so why is it only bad when Russ does it?

And each time Lebron shot poorly, it was without a super-team cast (bigger burden), just like Westbrook's experience

So you guys make excuses for Lebron's poor efficiency and most-ever turnovers - everything bad that Lebron does has an excuse, while Westbrook doesn't get those same excuses

[SaintzFury13]

Lebron lost numerous series due to bad efficiency, so why is it only bad when Russ does it?

Name one series that he lost due to bad efficiency. And don't name the 2007 and 2015 finals because bad efficiency isn't why they lost those series.

[RRR3]

Snivelly spends every night crying about LeBron surpassing his hero Kobe :(

[Phoenix]

Lebron lost numerous series due to bad efficiency, so why is it only bad when Russ does it?

And each time Lebron shot poorly, it was without a super-team cast (bigger burden), just like Westbrook's experience

So you guys make excuses for Lebron's poor efficiency and most-ever turnovers - everything bad that Lebron does has an excuse, while Westbrook doesn't get those same excuses

Not only was 'baby' Westbrook the same age as MJ in 2016, he had already been to the finals in 2012( when he actually WAS a baby) and had more playoff experience( 64 games) heading into 2016 than 91 MJ heading into that playoffs(53 games). So I'll repeat the question, was MJ a baby in 91? Let's see if you can write something new and not copy-past your reply. Thanks in advance.

The 2016 Thunder were as talented as any team that year.

You're full of shit, but what else is new?

[ShawkFactory]

Yes, it is - Lebron is #1 all-time in turnovers - he's literally the turnover king

And he routinely makes bad decisions in the clutch - over and over again... Dumb passes... Dumb shots... Stupid ball-dominance instead of ball movement (he doesn't employ the best strategy) etc, etc, etc

I know you're not interested in an actual discussion about this, so I'll just say this for myself and anyone else who might be interested:

Lebron plays the game in a calculated way. Sometimes he calculates incorrectly and sometimes his teammates might be working on a completely different equation, but he's always thinking about the situation and how best to attack it. He's gotten more careless with the ball as he's gotten older, but generally speaking he assesses the situation and looks to make the correct play.

Westbrook, on the other hand, doesn't think. He just puts his head down and goes. Which is commendable for the most part, and I certainly admire his constant motor. But when you have a guy who doesn't think ever, that really gets you into trouble in key situations. Hence why KD, CP3, Harden, PG all were frustrated playing with him. When things slow down sometimes you need a guy to reel it in and think about what is happening. It doesn't seem that Westbrook has the ability to do that consistently. Hence why he consistently makes losing plays down the stretch of games.

Westbrook's style of play is not what costs his teams, it's his decision making in big moments.

[3ba11]

Name one series that he lost due to bad efficiency. And don't name the 2007 and 2015 finals because bad efficiency isn't why they lost those series.


In the 2008 ECSF, the Cavs' great defense took the Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%.

You don't think the Cavs easily win if Lebron shoots his normal 50%???.

How biased are you?... You're making excuses for a guy that BARELY lost a series and saying his 35% shooting wasn't a primary cause?.. Do you realize that no 1st option ever shot 35% in a playoff series EXCEPT lebron??.. So he played worse than anyone ever has, yet you won't blame him in a tight series?

Ditto the 15' Finals where he shot 39% in a close loss.

And do you understand the massive gap between 22 on 35% and 33 on 50%????... If Lebron gets the latter in the 07' Finals, he would've beaten those Spurs just like Kobe did in 08'..

[Phoenix]

In the 2008 ECSF, the Cavs' great defense took the Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%.

You don't think the Cavs easily win if Lebron shoots his normal 50%???.

How biased are you?... You're making excuses for a guy that BARELY lost a series and saying his 35% shooting wasn't a primary cause?.. Do you realize that no 1st option ever shot 35% in a playoff series EXCEPT lebron??.. So he played worse than anyone ever has, yet you won't blame him in a tight series?

Ditto the 15' Finals where he shot 39% in a close loss.

And do you understand the massive gap between 22 on 35% and 33 on 50%????... If Lebron gets the latter in the 07' Finals, he would've beaten those Spurs just like Kobe did in 08'..

No, because his 2nd and third options were good for 12 and 11ppg respectively each shooting 43% against a great defensive team. You know that argument you make 10 times a day about good second options? You think maybe he could have used one of those? You give Scottie shit for the series he scored 17 on 40% or whatever but your eyes magically skip over Big Z, as a center, shooting 43% to score 12 points.

So with that said, who playing in 2008 replacing Lebron beats the Celtics? Don't say Kobe, because Kobe had a better team and....well you saw the finals, right?

[SouBeachTalents]

No, because his 2nd and third options were good for 12 and 11ppg respectively each shooting 43% against a great defensive team. You know that argument you make 10 times a day about good second options? You think maybe he could have used one of those? You give Scottie shit for the series he scored 17 on 40% or whatever but your eyes magically skip over Big Z, as a center, shooting 43% to score 12 points.

So with that said, who playing in 2008 replacing Lebron beats the Celtics? Don't say Kobe, because Kobe had a better team and....well you saw the finals, right?
This basically sums of all of 3ball's posts. He is literally incapable of using consistent criteria.

[Phoenix]

This basically sums of all of 3ball's posts. He is literally incapable of using consistent criteria.

Yep, right down to excusing Westbrook in 2016 because he was a 'baby' at 28 with 8 years of experience and 64 playoff games to that point, but as of now hasn't answered whether Jordan in 91, 28 with 7 years and 53 playoff games, was also a baby when he won his first chip. Or just maybe, Westbrook isn't the playmaker you want leading your team to a chip. Put him at shooting guard if you must and let him go, but making the key decisions down the stretch? No, in 2008 and 2021 the answer is the same.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yep, right down to excusing Westbrook in 2016 because he was a 'baby' at 28 with 8 years of experience and 64 playoff games to that point, but as of now hasn't answered whether Jordan in 91, 28 with 7 years and 53 playoff games, was also a baby when he won his first chip. Or just maybe, Westbrook isn't the playmaker you want leading your team to a chip. Put him at shooting guard if you must and let him go, but making the key decisions down the stretch? No, in 2008 and 2021 the answer is the same.
Damn, in that case virtually all the series he's calling into question are excused considering LeBron was younger and had less experience in '07 & '08. I guess 2011 does too since he was only 26 :lol

[Phoenix]

Damn, in that case virtually all the series he's calling into question are excused considering LeBron was younger and had less experience in '07 & '08. I guess 2011 does too since he was only 26 :lol

3ball, we await your twisted retort.

[Horatio33]

Lebron lost numerous series due to bad efficiency, so why is it only bad when Russ does it?

And each time Lebron shot poorly, it was without a super-team cast (bigger burden), just like Westbrook's experience

So you guys make excuses for Lebron's poor efficiency and most-ever turnovers - everything bad that Lebron does has an excuse, while Westbrook doesn't get those same excuses
Westbrook had MVP level Durant on his team. Its not like he was playing with nobodies.

Durant was way more efficient than Westbrook, but Westbrook took as many shots. That famed Westbrook leadership and floor generalship

[AirBonner]

Damn, in that case virtually all the series he's calling into question are excused considering LeBron was younger and had less experience in '07 & '08. I guess 2011 does too since he was only 26 :lol

3ball has left the chat

[SaintzFury13]

In the 2008 ECSF, the Cavs' great defense took the Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%.

Nope, that isn't what cost them the series. That was a defensive minded series that saw both teams shooting poorly on a regular basis. And LeBron had two great scoring outings in games that were very winnable but his team couldn't help him and thus they lost.

So that series doesn't count.


You don't think the Cavs easily win if Lebron shoots his normal 50%???.

When the **** did I ever say that?


How biased are you?... You're making excuses for a guy that BARELY lost a series and saying his 35% shooting wasn't a primary cause?..

I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm explaining why your logic doesn't work. In order for LeBron's percentage mark being the primary reason for their loss to have any real merit, it has to be a recurring theme throughout the series, like Kobe shooting LA out of the 04 Finals. His best games in that series were in games that Cleveland lost, including a 45 point on 48% shooting from the field performance in game 7. So what logical sense does it make to blame LeBron?


Do you realize that no 1st option ever shot 35% in a playoff series EXCEPT lebron??.. So he played worse than anyone ever has, yet you won't blame him in a tight series?

Yeah, and now I ask: did you watch the series? Did you ever look at what happened on the court? How do you think LeBron was held to 35% from the field? What do you think caused that?


Ditto the 15' Finals where he shot 39% in a close loss.

And this is another example of you once again ignoring what happened in the series and instead focusing on stats. You're calling this a close loss. It was close BECAUSE of LeBron. HE is the reason the series was close in the first place. If he doesn't try to score at the rate he does, Cavaliers instead lose this series in historic blowout fashion, and then at that point it's really his fault. The primary reason as to why Cleveland lost that series is because the Warriors had more bodies and once they went small ball, Cleveland had no chance of winning. This one is very simple to understand.


And do you understand the massive gap between 22 on 35% and 33 on 50%????... If Lebron gets the latter in the 07' Finals, he would've beaten those Spurs just like Kobe did in 08'..

Okay? LeBron in 2007 is not the player Kobe Bryant is in 2008, nor does he have anywhere close to the team Kobe did. But I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand that.

So now I once again ask, give me one, JUST ONE, playoff series that LeBron cost his team because of his poor field goal percentage.

[imdaman99]

So we are officially gonna overrate Westbrook now that he's a teammate of Lebron :lol

Can't say I didn't see that coming. Westbrook gonna get shit on by Lebron fam and propped up by Lebron haters. Let's get it on :rockon:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Westbrook called Kawhi two summers ago and begged him to be on his team. Kawhi hung up the phone and called Paul George instead.

Kawhi is the most efficient superstar of all time, Westbrook is the least efficient superstar of all time. What made Westbrook think Kawhi was going to play with him hahahahaha :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Westbrook called Kawhi two summers ago and begged him to be on his team. Kawhi hung up the phone and called Paul George instead.

Kawhi is the most efficient superstar of all time, Westbrook is the least efficient superstar of all time. What made Westbrook think Kawhi was going to play with him hahahahaha :oldlol:
Curry

[AirBonner]

Kawhi might have won with Westbrook by now

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Curry

2015\16 curry was at about 60.5% TS

Kawhi during his 2019 title run scored more total points and a higher TS.

Then he cheated with Durant and took advantage of injured teams.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi might have won with Westbrook by now

Two covid asterisk seasons.

1 bubble season (100% asterisk)

and then another covid season that was rushed and had 5+ superstars get injured.

Two fluke seasons pretty much. Kawhi would of won in 2019 with Irving though that's for damn sure.

[j3lademaster]

2015\16 curry was at about 60.5% TS

Kawhi during his 2019 title run scored more total points and a higher TS.

Then he cheated with Durant and took advantage of injured teams.Try 67% TS. Prime Steph never shot close to that poorly outside of 2020 where he was hurt and played 5 games.

[Turbo Slayer]

How is this dude still posting? GTFO here.

[StrongLurk]

OP is a deranged addict who needs mental health therapy.

He literally copy/pastes the same things for a decade, even things that have been objectively proven wrong, yet still tries to parrot them as fact.

OP should get off the internet and go become a politician.

Also OP really should be careful, his behavior will push other crazy internet people to the edge and they legit might show up to his door one day in person and have bad things waiting for him.

[TheCorporation]

especially in practice where teammates always know who has the juice and can tell who the stronger force is.. They'll be giving the ball to Russ automatically/instinctively - not as a shot to Lebron - it's just standard procedure to give the ball to the most active/productive guy

So this could be another year where Lebron gets exposed - this time as an inferior force to Westbrook at this point in their careers.

The truth is that Westbrook has been doing the same thing as Lebron for years now, except at a higher production rate..

HE SIMPLY NEVER HAD SUPER-TEAMS, SO HE DIDN'T WIN LIKE LEBRON.

Yes Lebron is more efficient and "smarter", but the latter is subjective - they both play the same way, aka high turnover and high assist style, except Westbrook gets a lot more assists... The only REAL difference is that Lebron had super-teams and goat GM'ing to buffalo the league, while Westbrook was a smaller thinker and didn't pursue those aims - but none of that matters and Westbrook will challenge Lebron for floor generalship this year

Breathe

[3ba11]

No, because his 2nd and third options were good for 12 and 11ppg respectively each shooting 43% against a great defensive team. You know that argument you make 10 times a day about good second options? You think maybe he could have used one of those? You give Scottie shit for the series he scored 17 on 40% or whatever but your eyes magically skip over Big Z, as a center, shooting 43% to score 12 points.

So with that said, who playing in 2008 replacing Lebron beats the Celtics? Don't say Kobe, because Kobe had a better team and....well you saw the finals, right?


How can a 1st option elevate their cast when they themselves are missing shots more than anyone ever has?... No 1st option had ever shot 35% in a playoff series before Lebron's 07' Finals and 08' ECSF, so no cast had their 1st option with such little capacity to elevate them.

Surely the entire game dynamic would've been different if Lebron averaged 30 on 50%, while the cast follows suit and finds themselves more open from Lebron commanding attention - that's what happens when a 1st option completely dominates instead of completely wetting the bed like Lebron... :hammerhead:

But as usual, you didn't think about the game on a sufficient level to properly interpret the numbers.

[Phoenix]

How can a 1st option elevate their cast when they themselves are missing shots more than anyone ever has?... No 1st option had ever shot 35% in a playoff series before Lebron's 07' Finals and 08' ECSF, so no cast had their 1st option with such little capacity to elevate them.

Surely the entire game dynamic would've been different if Lebron averaged 30 on 50%, while the cast follows suit and finds themselves more open from Lebron commanding attention - that's what happens when a 1st option completely dominates instead of completely wetting the bed like Lebron... :hammerhead:

But as usual, you didn't think about the game on a sufficient level to properly interpret the numbers.

Was 91 Jordan a baby? Third time asking....

[3ba11]

Was 91 Jordan a baby? Third time asking....


You're avoiding all my posts

When Lebron didn't have his super-team help, he shot worse than anyone ever has, let alone Westbrook.

So you guys just make shit up about Lebron, aka he's "smarter", when he's infact he's 4/10 with zero #1 offenses in 2 decades and the all-time leader in turnovers... HE SIMPLY FORMED SUPER-TEAMS, SO HE WON (and still mostly lost, because that's what ball-domination does, regardless of who the ball-dominator is, even a 6'8" westbrook like lebron will mostly lose with inferior strategy like ball-domination - this is intuitive stuff, yet you play dumb or are dumb by not understanding it.. carry on your diverson and deflecting)

[Phoenix]

You're avoiding all my posts

When Lebron didn't have his super-team help, he shot worse than anyone ever has, let alone Westbrook.

So you guys just make shit up about Lebron, aka he's "smarter", when he's infact he's 4/10 with zero #1 offenses in 2 decades and the all-time leader in turnovers... HE SIMPLY FORMED SUPER-TEAMS, SO HE WON (and still mostly lost, because that's what ball-domination does, regardless of who the ball-dominator is, even a 6'8" westbrook like lebron will mostly lose with inferior strategy like ball-domination - this is intuitive stuff, yet you play dumb or are dumb by not understanding it.. carry on your diverson and deflecting)

You've avoided my question since the first page. Carry on your diversion and deflecting.

Was Jordan a baby in 91? 4th time......

[RRR3]

You've avoided my question since the first page. Carry on your diversion and deflecting.

Was Jordan a baby in 91? 4th time......
Poor Snivelly he can’t answer :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Poor Snivelly he can’t answer :oldlol:

I mean literally, I challenged the 'Westbrook is a baby' opinion in post #8 with follow-ups. This is post #39 and......:confusedshrug: And then he deflects and repeats the same garbage hoping I won't notice that he's yet to answer a very simple question: If Westbrook was a 'baby' at 28 with 8 years of experience, then what was Jordan at 28 in 91 when he won? He doesn't have a pre-canned cut and paste reply for that so he's gone into '404 not found' auto-reply :lol.

[RRR3]

I mean literally, I challenged the 'Westbrook is a baby' opinion in post #8 with follow-ups. This is post #39 and......:confusedshrug: And then he deflects and repeats the same garbage hoping I won't notice that he's yet to answer a very simple question: If Westbrook was a 'baby' at 28 with 8 years of experience, then what was Jordan at 28 in 91 when he won? He doesn't have a pre-canned cut and paste reply for that so he's gone into '404 not found' auto-reply :lol.
He’s actually completely out of his mind. It’s disturbing.

[000]

Lebum Lebum Lebum!!!:mad:

[ShawkFactory]

:hammerhead:



This...is the most ironic thing I've ever seen.

Well done :lol

[3ba11]

You've avoided my question since the first page. Carry on your diversion and deflecting.

Was Jordan a baby in 91? 4th time......


You've avoided literally everything I've said, including that first post that you responded to - you just avoided everything in it

Without super-teams, Lebron often had similar efficiency to Westbrook like the 2010 meltdown loss, or the 2008 loss, or the entire 2007 Playoffs.

But somehow Lebron's bed wetting gets excused, while Westbrook gets knocked... It's a double standard because the super-teams made everyone forget about Lebron's prior failures as the defending conference champs (08') or as the league favorite (09' and 10').. Most of these losses occurred with westbrook-like efficiency.

Ultimately, Lebron is a 6'8" Westbrook that mostly loses because inferior strategy loses regardless of who the is employing it - aka ball-domination loses regardless of who the ball-dominator is (even a 6'9" westbrook will mostly lose, aka lebron)

[Phoenix]

You've avoided literally everything I've said, including that first post that you responded to - you just avoided everything in it



If I was interested in contesting those points I would have done so, I'm not 'avoiding' anything. Your problem is you think everything discussed here has to be some kind of 'I'm right and you're wrong' contest. Is someone sending you brownies?

I asked a simple question: how is Westbrook a baby at 28 years old when he was even more playoff experienced( and the same age) as 91 MJ which I'm sure you wouldn't classify as a 'baby'. You continue to bypass that question and regurgitate the same schtick about Lebron forming super teams which I was not questioning in the first place nor is it applicable to the bolded. If you don't want to address what I ACTUALLY am asking you about( the bolded), that's your choice, but looks like avoidance on your part.

[3ba11]

If I was interested in contesting those points I would have done so, I'm not 'avoiding' anything. I asked a simple question: how is Westbrook a baby at 28 years old when he was even more playoff experienced( and the same age) as 91 MJ which I'm sure you wouldn't classify as a 'baby'. You continue to bypass that question and regurgitate the same schtick about Lebron forming super teams which I was not questioning in the first place. If you don't want to address what I ACTUALLY am asking you about( the bolded), that's your choice, but you're replying with something that doesn't address MY particular question. Which, to me, looks like avoidance on your part.


If you're going to ignore the point I'm making and pursue a derail then what's the point?

You said that Lebron was more efficient and he wasn't - that's the original point that you made that I responded to by pointing out that you were wrong in making that point - Lebron has tons of major losses with bad efficiency, just like Westbrook

That I called Westbrook a baby is irrelevant - i never referenced his age, only his mentality

[Phoenix]

If you're going to ignore the point I'm making and pursue a derail then what's the point?

You said that Lebron was more efficient and he wasn't - that's the original point that you made that I responded to by pointing out that you were wrong in making that point - Lebron has tons of major losses with bad efficiency, just like Westbrook

That I called Westbrook a baby is irrelevant - i never referenced his age, only his mentality

How is asking you to clarify a point YOU made a derail?

*I* said Lebron was more efficient? Ummm....




Yes Lebron is more efficient and "smarter", but the latter is subjective - they both play the same way, aka high turnover and high assist style, except Westbrook gets a lot more assists... The only REAL difference is that Lebron had super-teams and goat GM'ing to buffalo the league, while Westbrook was a smaller thinker and didn't pursue those aims - but none of that matters and Westbrook will challenge Lebron for floor generalship this year

Want to go back to the drawing board?

When people say 'such and such is a baby' in basketball terms that's usually referring to age and/or experience. And what's funny is, Westbrook is 33 and still has the same 'mentality' if I want to play your game, that he did at 23. His game and approach is exactly the same, which is why no team has won a chip with him making the decisions. And let's not act like he hasn't played with talent, he's played with two MVPs in their peak/prime in Durant and Harden.

[NBAGOAT]

this is what happens when you dont watch the league anymore. If westbrook was in his prime there would be an argument though I disagree but westbrook even though he's younger is more past his prime than lebron is. I would say he's not even a top 25 player in the league anymore that's not going challenge lebron for anything.

As for superteams, not on bron's level but he certainly has "pursued those aims". he and prime kd in 2016 were the best duo in the league since shaq/kobe. You also forget okc had a superteam on paper in 2018 but carmelo fell off hard(ofc if this happened on lebron's team you blame lebron for carmelo's decline) and westbrook declined too. from 2019-2021 he's paired with a different star every year. 2017 is the only year of his career he was the solo star.

Edit: you're just too obsessed with career resumes like in that george thread when that stuff doesnt matter much when predicting or evaluating how good a team is.

[3ba11]

How is asking you to clarify a point YOU made a derail?

*I* said Lebron was more efficient? Ummm....



When people say 'such and such is a baby' in basketball terms that's usually referring to age and/or experience. And what's funny is, Westbrook is 33 and still has the same 'mentality' if I want to play your game, that he did at 23. His game and approach is exactly the same, which is why no name has won a chip with him making the decisions. And let's not act like he hasn't played with talent, he's played with two MVPs in their peak/prime in Durant and Harden.


Yes we agree that Westbrook is a loser.....

But so is Lebron before and after the super-teams - and he's a loser in the same way that Westbrook was (low efficiency turnover machine while losing as the favorite from 09-11' or with defending conference champs in 08')

So again, Lebron is a 6'8" Westbrook that mostly loses because inferior strategy loses regardless of who the is employing it - aka ball-domination loses regardless of who the ball-dominator is (even a 6'9" westbrook will mostly lose, aka lebron)

Btw, Harden was a bench player and averaged 15 ppg and wasn't an all-star when Westbrook played with him - so only Lebron had big 3 super-teams from 2011-2016, aka 3 elite 1st options and 3 perennial all-stars on same team = super-team

[Phoenix]

Yes we agree that Westbrook is a loser.....



But you said before that the only reason he hasn't won is because he doesn't form superteams. That doesn't suggest that he was a loser, only that he didn't have the talent around him.

[3ba11]

But you said before that the only reason he hasn't won is because he doesn't form superteams. That doesn't suggest that he was a loser, only that he didn't have the talent around him.


The rest of my post that you cut off answers your bolded question above

Lebron was also a loser before and after the super-teams - and he's a loser in the same way that Westbrook was (low efficiency turnover machine while losing as the favorite from 09-11' or with defending conference champs in 08')

So again, Lebron is a 6'8" Westbrook that mostly loses because inferior strategy loses regardless of who is employing it - aka ball-domination loses regardless of who the ball-dominator is (even a 6'9" westbrook will mostly lose, aka lebron)

Btw, Harden was a bench player and averaged 15 ppg and wasn't an all-star when Westbrook played with him - so only Lebron had big 3 super-teams from 2011-2016, aka 3 elite 1st options and 3 perennial all-stars on same team = super-team

[NBAGOAT]

Yes we agree that Westbrook is a loser.....

But so is Lebron before the super-teams - and he's a loser in the same way that Westbrook was (low efficiency turnover machine and losing as the favorite numerous times)

So again, Lebron is a 6'8" Westbrook that mostly loses because inferior strategy loses regardless of who the is employing it - aka ball-domination loses regardless of who the ball-dominator is (even a 6'9" westbrook will mostly lose, aka lebron)

This will be too harsh but kinda needs to be said in this thread. lebron was a loser with mo williams as his 2nd star. westbrook was a loser as the 2nd star to durant, george, harden, and beal. It's classic 3ball, you're trying to argue one point(without solid context or it necessarily being true) to prove a ridiculous claim that westbrook is as good as lebron. Here it's because lebron didnt win a title in cleveland without a superteam, any other star who didnt win is on his level lol.

[NBAGOAT]

The rest of my post that you cut off answers your bolded question above

Harden was a 15 ppg bench player and not an all-star when Westbrook played with him.

Lebron was also a loser before and after the super-teams - and he's a loser in the same way that Westbrook was (low efficiency turnover machine while losing as the favorite from 09-11' or with defending conference champs in 08')

So again, Lebron is a 6'8" Westbrook that mostly loses because inferior strategy loses regardless of who is employing it - aka ball-domination loses regardless of who the ball-dominator is (even a 6'9" westbrook will mostly lose, aka lebron)

Btw, Harden was a bench player and averaged 15 ppg and wasn't an all-star when Westbrook played with him - so only Lebron had big 3 super-teams from 2011-2016, aka 3 elite 1st options and 3 perennial all-stars on same team = super-team

he's talking about harden and westbrook in houston. again this is what happens when you havent watched basketball in 5 years.

[3ba11]

This will be too harsh but kinda needs to be said in this thread. lebron was a loser with mo williams as his 2nd star. westbrook was a loser as the 2nd star to durant, george, harden, and beal. It's classic 3ball, you're trying to argue one point(without solid context or it necessarily being true) to prove a ridiculous claim that westbrook is as good as lebron. Here it's because lebron didnt win a title in cleveland without a superteam, any other star who didnt win is on his level lol.


Westbrook never lost with a big 3, while Lebron did many times

Westbrook only lost with 2-star teams or 1-star teams, just like Lebron before his super-teams

[3ba11]

he's talking about harden and westbrook in houston. again this is what happens when you havent watched basketball in 5 years.


Westbrook never lost with a big 3 (never had one), while Lebron had many big 3's and lost with them many times

Westbrook only lost with 2-star teams or 1-star teams, just like Lebron without his super-teams

hope that helps.. :applause:

[ShawkFactory]

This will be too harsh but kinda needs to be said in this thread. lebron was a loser with mo williams as his 2nd star. westbrook was a loser as the 2nd star to durant, george, harden, and beal. It's classic 3ball, you're trying to argue one point(without solid context or it necessarily being true) to prove a ridiculous claim that westbrook is as good as lebron. Here it's because lebron didnt win a title in cleveland without a superteam, any other star who didnt win is on his level lol.

Well Westbrook puts up great numbers. And Lebron put up great numbers.

So ipso facto they’re the same player

[Phoenix]

The rest of my post that you cut off answers your bolded question above

Btw, Harden was a bench player and averaged 15 ppg and wasn't an all-star when Westbrook played with him - so only Lebron had big 3 super-teams from 2011-2016, aka 3 elite 1st options and 3 perennial all-stars on same team = super-team

I was referring to when he played with Harden in 2020, not in the early 2010s. The 2016 Thunder were also, with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka,Adams, Kanter, etc as talented as any team in the league. Which of course, circles back to my first point on page one. If Westbrook was smarter and more efficient( I'm not saying in relation to Lebron, I mean in general), the Thunder very likely beat the Warriors and a hypothetical finals with the Cavs is a pick-em.

[Phoenix]

he's talking about harden and westbrook in houston. again this is what happens when you havent watched basketball in 5 years.

You would think that would have been obvious, but the issue lies at the end of your sentence.

[3ba11]

I was referring to when he played with Harden in 2020, not in the early 2010s. The 2016 Thunder were also, with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka,Adams, Kanter, etc as talented as any team in the league. Which of course, circles back to my first point on page one. If Westbrook was smarter and more efficient( I'm not saying in relation to Lebron, I mean in general), the Thunder very likely beat the Warriors and a hypothetical finals with the Cavs is a pick-em.



Westbrook never lost with a big 3 (never had one), while Lebron had many big 3's and lost with them many times

Westbrook only lost with 2-star teams or 1-star teams, just like Lebron without his super-teams

hope that helps.

[Phoenix]

Westbrook never lost with a big 3 (never had one), while Lebron had many big 3's and lost with them many times

Westbrook only lost with 2-star teams or 1-star teams, just like Lebron without his super-teams

hope that helps.

Oh, back to no effort copy/pastes? Cool...

I was referring to when he played with Harden in 2020, not in the early 2010s. The 2016 Thunder were also, with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka,Adams, Kanter, etc as talented as any team in the league. Which of course, circles back to my first point on page one. If Westbrook was smarter and more efficient( I'm not saying in relation to Lebron, I mean in general), the Thunder very likely beat the Warriors and a hypothetical finals with the Cavs is a pick-em.

That includes the 2016 Cavs.

Hope that helps.

[RRR3]

Y’all really letting him get away with saying WB never had a big 3? What the hell were the 12 Thunder?

[NBAGOAT]

Westbrook never lost with a big 3, while Lebron did many times

Westbrook only lost with 2-star teams or 1-star teams, just like Lebron before his super-teams

well let's define a superteam then. I stole this definition from a youtube video but it's a really good one. a superteam should have a big 3 of a mvp caliber player, all-nba caliber player, and an allstar caliber player or better. doesnt matter that the 06 pistons had 4 all stars, they didnt have the top end talent.

By this definition only year bron lost in miami with a superteam was 11 which everyone gives him a huge and deserved amount of blame for. 14 heat were not a superteam, wade with his injuries and age wasnt all-nba caliber anymore. It was lebron and 2 all stars. That's the bucks situation with giannis/khris/jrue now who also have better depth but they're also not a superteam. The other year he lost with a superteam was 2017. I think i'll excuse him for that when he was up against one of the goat teams both on paper and on the court.
Edit: one of the few teams ever with a legit big 4 and lead by 2 mvp level players

Ik you'll argue how is lebron, wade, bosh ever not a superteam because you're obsessed with career resumes and somehow it's lebron's fault wade got old. I would counter with melo was a 10 time all star and an all star in 2017 so okc in 2018 was a superteam on paper. Russ was the mvp guy, george all-nba and melo the all star. Ik it's actually not because melo fell off but by your criteria it is one

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball moving goalposts and running from his own words.

:whatever:

The Kobe stan special

[Phoenix]

Y’all really letting him get away with saying WB never had a big 3? What the hell were the 12 Thunder?

Nope, see my above post. I think the 2016 Thunder had as much talent as any team in 2016.

[NBAGOAT]

Y’all really letting him get away with saying WB never had a big 3? What the hell were the 12 Thunder?

harden tbf wasnt in his prime yet. I still consider it a big 3 too but 3ball only cares about all stars

Edit: i should respond to 3ball saying harden only put up 17ppg in 2012(he's lying ofc rounding it down to 15ppg). You know how many ppg bosh put up in 13 and 14? 17 and 16 lol. Ik he'll argue bosh got marginalized by bron and he was a 24ppg guy in toronto but then I would counter harden got marginalized by durant and westbrook. Harden immediately became a 26ppg in houston the very next year. That's just what can happen when you go from a 3rd to 1st option

[Phoenix]

The 2016 Thunder with Durant and Westbrook were two MVP level players( Durant had won the award in his previous last healthy season, Westbrook won it the following year), and Ibaka who was a former all-defensive player. Add Adams/Kanter to the mix, and they probably had the one of, if not the, best big-man rotations in the league and one of the best perimeter duos in the league that year. Talent was not an issue.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/5G4JES.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/ZypWBI.gif



Oh, back to no effort copy/pastes? Cool...

I was referring to when he played with Harden in 2020, not in the early 2010s. The 2016 Thunder were also, with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka,Adams, Kanter, etc as talented as any team in the league. Which of course, circles back to my first point on page one. If Westbrook was smarter and more efficient( I'm not saying in relation to Lebron, I mean in general), the Thunder very likely beat the Warriors and a hypothetical finals with the Cavs is a pick-em.

That includes the 2016 Cavs.

Hope that helps.


2016 OKC wasn't considered a super-team no matter how much you want to lionize their role players

Only Lebron played with 3 perennial all-stars or 3 elite 1st options.... IN HISTORY.... UNTIL THE KD WARRIORS....

NO ONE IN HISTORY had 3 proven elite 1st options on the same team - only Lebron's Heat and Cavs filled this bill until the KD Warriors - professional statisticians agree (above)

[Phoenix]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/5G4JES.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/ZypWBI.gif





2016 OKC wasn't considered a super-team no matter how much you want to lionize their role players

Only Lebron played with 3 perennial all-stars or 3 elite 1st options.... IN HISTORY.... UNTIL THE KD WARRIORS....

NO ONE IN HISTORY had 3 proven elite 1st options on the same team - only Lebron's Heat and Cavs filled this bill until the KD Warriors - professional statisticians agree (above)

Who was better, 2016 KD or Lebron? 2016 Westbrook or Kyrie? I'm not getting caught up on the semantics of 'super team'. Just answer the preceding question without spinning yourself dizzy.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/5G4JES.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/ZypWBI.gif





2016 OKC wasn't considered a super-team no matter how much you want to lionize their role players

Only Lebron played with 3 perennial all-stars or 3 elite 1st options.... IN HISTORY.... UNTIL THE KD WARRIORS....

NO ONE IN HISTORY had 3 proven elite 1st options on the same team - only Lebron's Heat and Cavs filled this bill until the KD Warriors - professional statisticians agree (above)
Are Bosh/Kyrie/Love really "proven elite 1st options" with 15 losing seasons in 17 years and 3 playoff wins combined prior to joining LeBron?

[Phoenix]

Are Bosh/Kyrie/Love really "proven elite 1st options" with 15 losing seasons in 17 years and 3 playoff wins combined prior to joining LeBron?

The other thing is, as far as OKC went Durant and Westbrook in 2016 were BOTH MVP level players. The only MVP level player on the 2016 Cavs was Lebron. Kyrie is very far from being an MVP, and Love while a decent third option, was a classic 'big numbers on bad team' guy. He was never the kind of guy who was gonna be the best player on a contender.

[SouBeachTalents]

The other thing is, as far as OKC went Durant and Westbrook in 2016 were BOTH MVP level players. The only MVP level player on the 2016 Cavs was Lebron. Kyrie is very far from being an MVP, and Love while a decent third option, was a classic 'big numbers on bad team' guy. He was never the kind of guy who was gonna be the best player on a contender.
The only legit MVP caliber teammates LeBron has had was Wade in 2011 & AD in 2020.

[3ba11]

Are Bosh/Kyrie/Love really "proven elite 1st options" with 15 losing seasons in 17 years and 3 playoff wins combined prior to joining LeBron?


A team would win zero games if everyone on the team was a worse scorer than Horace Grant, so Kevin Love's 40 wins in the West with no help is elite, especially given his elite stats.. Kyrie also has elite scoring numbers and is a champion of the highest order (destroyed the league MVP in the FInals - imagine if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals - that's the only way Jordan's rings would be as low quality as Lebron's 2016 ring).

So again - only Lebron had 3 proven elite 1st options - I used the word "proven" because guys like Worthy or McHale never got to be 1st option as the best player on their team... And the statisticians agree - Lebron's Heat and Cavs are the best supporting talent since 1980 until the KD Warriors... :confusedshrug:..

[SouBeachTalents]

A team would win zero games if everyone on the team was a worse scorer than Horace Grant, so Kevin Love's 40 wins in the West with no help is elite, especially given his elite stats.. Kyrie also has elite scoring numbers and is a champion of the highest order (destroyed the league MVP in the FInals - imagine if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals - that's the only way Jordan's rings would be as low quality as Lebron's 2016 ring).

So again - only Lebron had 3 proven elite 1st options - I used the word "proven" because guys like Worthy or McHale never got to be 1st option as the best player on their team... And the statisticians agree - Lebron's Heat and Cavs are the best supporting talent since 1980 until the KD Warriors... :confusedshrug:..
McHale & Worthy SHIT on Bosh & Love :oldlol:

[RRR3]

harden tbf wasnt in his prime yet. I still consider it a big 3 too but 3ball only cares about all stars

Edit: i should respond to 3ball saying harden only put up 17ppg in 2012(he's lying ofc rounding it down to 15ppg). You know how many ppg bosh put up in 13 and 14? 17 and 16 lol. Ik he'll argue bosh got marginalized by bron and he was a 24ppg guy in toronto but then I would counter harden got marginalized by durant and westbrook. Harden immediately became a 26ppg in houston the very next year. That's just what can happen when you go from a 3rd to 1st option
It doesn’t matter if he was in his prime he was clearly a star by then the numbers support it. He was already capable of scoring 25 PPG on a mediocre team which is literally all 3ball cares about. By 3balls logic he was already great. If 2012 Harden wasn’t a star no version of Ginobili was either lol.

[NBAGOAT]

A team would win zero games if everyone on the team was a worse scorer than Horace Grant, so Kevin Love's 40 wins in the West with no help is elite, especially given his elite stats.. Kyrie also has elite scoring numbers and is a champion of the highest order (destroyed the league MVP in the FInals - imagine if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals - that's the only way Jordan's rings would be as low quality as Lebron's 2016 ring).

So again - only Lebron had 3 proven elite 1st options - I used the word "proven" because guys like Worthy or McHale never got to be 1st option as the best player on their team... And the statisticians agree - Lebron's Heat and Cavs are the best supporting talent since 1980 until the KD Warriors... :confusedshrug:..

Well 15 cavs had a good reason they didn’t win a title… this thread started with comparing Westbrook and bron so again I’ll throw this out there which you keep ignoring. why are you overlooking 2018 okcs failure to do anything. Paul George and Carmelo are as proven as it gets as 1st options.

[3ba11]

McHale & Worthy SHIT on Bosh & Love :oldlol:


Bosh and Love are the modern versions of Worthy and McHale.

It's debateable.. It's hard to compare guys that are excelling in a Bird/Kareem brand of basketball to guys that are getting reduced to spot-up roles in LeWestbrook-ball.

It's actually cool that Westbrook teamed up with Lebron for Lebron's last few years because they'll be officially joined at the hip as fellow ball-dominators

[Phoenix]

The only legit MVP caliber teammates LeBron has had was Wade in 2011 & AD in 2020.

Yep.

[Phoenix]

A team would win zero games if everyone on the team was a worse scorer than Horace Grant, so Kevin Love's 40 wins in the West with no help is elite, especially given his elite stats.. Kyrie also has elite scoring numbers and is a champion of the highest order (destroyed the league MVP in the FInals - imagine if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals - that's the only way Jordan's rings would be as low quality as Lebron's 2016 ring).



Kyrie couldn't get the Cavs above 33 wins before Lebron got there, in a conference you have always called weak. He's an elite iso scorer with minimal impact in the W/L column.

[RRR3]

Fair enough. I completely agree about harden but it’s easier to argue in bad faith like 3ball does that a guy is better because he scored 25ppg 5 years ago. We also know when you have 2 options you often prefer a Horace grant type over a scorer. You replace draymond on those kd teams with a score first all star like Blake or Aldridge and Gs is quite a bit worse.
He doesn’t understand this, he’s a Kobe stan. All they care about is PPGz except when comparing LeBron and Kobe of course.

[NBAGOAT]

It doesn’t matter if he was in his prime he was clearly a star by then the numbers support it. He was already capable of scoring 25 PPG on a mediocre team which is literally all 3ball cares about. By 3balls logic he was already great. If 2012 Harden wasn’t a star no version of Ginobili was either lol.

Fair enough. I completely agree about harden but it’s easier to argue in bad faith like 3ball does that a guy is better because he scored 25ppg years ago. We also know when you have 2 stars you often prefer a Horace grant type over a scorer. You replace draymond on those kd teams with a score first all star like Blake or Aldridge and Gs is quite a bit worse.

[3ba11]

The only legit MVP caliber teammates LeBron has had was Wade in 2011 & AD in 2020.


Despite making the tough decision to defer to Lebron in 2012, Wade still had higher PER, BPM, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than Pippen ever had (26 PER) and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP).. And remember that Lebron/Wade were only 3rd and 7th for MVP in 2011, but Wade's deferral to Lebron elevated Lebron to #1 for MVP in 2012.

And when Wade was trying to 3-peat in 2014, he still had higher PER, WS/48, efficiency and pace-adjusted scoring than Pippen's 3-peat run in 1993, while 13' Wade was higher across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP).

Btw, the only way that Jordan's ring quality could be reduced to Lebron's 2016 ring is if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals like Kyrie did Curry... So Kyrie was also "MVP-caliber" during that playoff run when he was equal-scoring partner to Lebron and the team's closer.

Ultimately, all of Lebron's sidekicks played at MVP caliber and matched or outscored him for entire playoff runs (shared load), while Jordan led Pippen by at least 10 ppg in every SERIES (carry-job)

[RRR3]

LeBron brutalized Kobe head to head. 16-6. Wow.

[3ba11]

LeBron brutalized Kobe head to head. 16-6. Wow.


LeWestbrooking has proven to do well in the entertainment regular season when teams fly in one night and out the next (zero adjustments)

But in the "real basketball" playoffs when teams are adjusting, LeWestbrooking gets figured out and underachieves it's talent, therefore losing as the favorite frequently.. So Kobe would destroy Lebron far worse than Dwight did

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeWestbrooking has proven to do well in the entertainment regular season when teams fly in one night and out the next (zero adjustments)

But in the "real basketball" playoffs when teams are adjusting, LeWestbrooking gets figured out and underachieves it's talent, therefore losing as the favorite frequently.. So Kobe would destroy Lebron far worse than Dwight did

That sounds good.... but realistically, Lebron's way produced more FMVPs than Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

That sounds good.... but realistically, Lebron's way produced more FMVPs than Kobe.
Also produced better playoff runs & MUCH better Finals & elimination game performances

[3ba11]

Also produced better playoff runs & MUCH better Finals & elimination game performances


Yes, Lebron has more raw physical talent than Kobe and overpowered teams more

But what good is physical talent if it lacks the skill to have the best teams and needs abnormal help to win?

So Kobe's skills are more complete because of his off-ball ability that allowed the best strategy (ball movement) and therefore yielded the highest team ceilings/Finals records..

Off-ball ability includes elite jumpshooting skill, which is a primary tenet of the game that the goat CANNOT LACK - the fact that Lebron lacks such a key component manifests itself in poor fits with teammates, inferior strategy, and ultimately lower team ceilings/Finals records... 4/10

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Also produced better playoff runs & MUCH better Finals & elimination game performances

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/191/357/445.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, Lebron has more raw physical talent than Kobe and overpowered teams more

But what good is physical talent if it lacks the skill to have the best teams and needs abnormal help to win?

So Kobe's skills are more complete because of his off-ball ability that allowed the best strategy (ball movement) and therefore yielded the highest team ceilings/Finals records..

Off-ball ability includes elite jumpshooting skill, which is a primary tenet of the game that the goat CANNOT LACK - the fact that Lebron lacks such a key component manifests itself in poor fits with teammates, inferior strategy, and ultimately lower team ceilings/Finals records... 4/10
Shaq outscoring Kobe by 10-20 ppg every Finals yielded the highest team ceilings/Finals records

[3ba11]

Also produced better playoff runs & MUCH better Finals & elimination game performances


Better playoff runs?

Kobe won 2 chips without 1b's (equal-scoring partner) or super-teams (3rd star), which are the highest quality rings possible - when did Lebron win without a 1b or super-team?

When did Lebron win a chip while carrying the scoring load (10+ more than sidekick in the Finals and playoffs), while still leading the assists like Kobe?

Lebron needed a Pau-like player at 3rd option to win (Bosh or Love) and a Kobe-like player at 2nd option (Wade or the Curry-killer)

TLDR: Lebron needed a lot more help to win due to skill deficits (poor teammate fits and inability to employ the best strategy/ball movement.

[SouBeachTalents]

Better playoff runs?

Kobe won 2 chips without 1b's (equal-scoring partner) or super-teams (3rd star), which are the highest quality rings possible - when did Lebron win without a 1b or super-team?

When did Lebron win a chip while carrying the scoring load (10+ more than sidekick in the Finals and playoffs), while still leading the assists like Kobe?

Lebron needed a Pau-like player at 3rd option to win (Bosh or Love) and a Kobe-like player at 2nd option (Wade or the Curry-killer)

TLDR: Lebron needed a lot more help to win due to skill deficits (poor teammate fits and inability to employ the best strategy/ball movement.
So "Kobe-like" players are 2nd options to LeBron? Guess that proves LeBron's truly better huh :lol

[expansionera]

So "Kobe-like" players are 2nd options to LeBron? Guess that proves LeBron's truly better huh :lol

Well played :applause: even Kobe’s greatest supporters don’t genuinely believe he’s better than Lebron, even if they maintain a facade in public

[3ba11]

So "Kobe-like" players are 2nd options to LeBron? Guess that proves LeBron's truly better huh :lol


Wade was 1st option in the 2011 Playoffs over Lebron, thus proving that Kobe > Lebron

Only in 2012 did Wade make the difficult decision to hand the team over to Lebron, yet he still had a 26 PER and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP)..

[RRR3]

It’s honestly amazing how stupid 3ball is. Genuinely astonishing.

[3ba11]

It’s honestly amazing how stupid 3ball is. Genuinely astonishing.


How?

Remember that Lebron/Wade were 3rd and 7th for MVP in 2011, but Wade's decision to defer to Lebron in 2012 elevated Lebron to MVP...

So it sucks for Wade becacuse he elevated Lebron to MVP and champion, but Lebron couldn't pay Wade back and actually cost Wade a 2nd FMVP and 4th title in 2011 - that would've put Wade at borderline top 10..

It's just more evidence that off-guards like Wade/MJ elevate, while ball-dominators like LeWestbrick reduce teammates to spot-up roles

[RRR3]

Spamming the same shit yet again isn’t a good way to prove you’re not stupid.

[3ba11]

Spamming the same shit yet again isn’t a good way to prove you’re not stupid.


That's because you still haven't answered how

it's okay to admit your guy is a fraud

LeFraud... LeWestbrick... there's legitimate reasons for these names

[RRR3]

Spam all you want nothing you do will make Kobe have a greater career than LeBron. You know it too which is why you’re so upset.

[GrayGoat]

LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe

[tpols]

Wade could have challenged for top 10 GOAT if he has two FMVPS, 4 rings, and a 3peat. Thats basically a hair short of Kobe. LeBron throwing the 2011 Finals because mid series it was obvious Wade would be FMVP if the Heat won really displaced Dwaynes all time rank. Its a shame....

[GrayGoat]

Wade could have challenged for top 10 GOAT if he has two FMVPS, 4 rings, and a 3peat. Thats basically a hair short of Kobe. LeBron throwing the 2011 Finals because mid series it was obvious Wade would be FMVP if the Heat won really displaced Dwaynes all time rank. Its a shame....
Nah longevity is not there

[NBAGOAT]

Nah longevity is not there

Yea wades is around 20 for some people. Isn’t really even considered on the ish list which is up to 16. One extra ring and finals mvp doesn’t move him up 10 spots.

[3ba11]

Btw, I don't think Westbrook is a smaller thinker than Lebron - Lebron was simply willing to seek that cheatcode (super-team), while Westbrook had a more competitive mindset.. until now obviously - finally westbrook's interests align with lebron's (ring-chasing)

[RRR3]

Snivelly has let LeBron surpassing Kobe ruin his life :(

[Phoenix]

Wade could have challenged for top 10 GOAT if he has two FMVPS, 4 rings, and a 3peat. Thats basically a hair short of Kobe. LeBron throwing the 2011 Finals because mid series it was obvious Wade would be FMVP if the Heat won really displaced Dwaynes all time rank. Its a shame....

No he wouldn't have. He's fringe top 20 with the way his career ended(probably somewhere between 22-26 for those obsessed with rankings). If he had played at the same level for that run, maybe he's top 15ish. But he dropped off after 2011( especially by end of 2013). Even if the Heat win in 2011 that doesn't catapult him into the top ten due to being a clear 2nd option in 2012 and 2013 instead of a 1B like in 2011.

[SouBeachTalents]

No he wouldn't have. He's fringe top 20 with the way his career ended(probably somewhere between 22-26 for those obsessed with rankings). If he had played at the same level for that run, maybe he's top 15ish. But he dropped off after 2011( especially by end of 2013). Even if the Heat win in 2011 that doesn't catapult him into the top ten due to being a clear 2nd option in 2012 and 2013 instead of a 1B like in 2011.
The notion 1-2 games go differently in 2011 and Wade catapults to Kobe & Hakeem's tier all time is fcking laughable :lol Him falling off a cliff after 30 was what ended his top 10 contention.

[MadDog]

The notion 1-2 games go differently in 2011 and Wade catapults to Kobe & Hakeem's tier all time is fcking laughable :lol Him falling off a cliff after 30 was what ended his top 10 contention.

You underestimate winning and its impact historically. Not top 10, but another Finals MVP and championship catapults Wade. Fair or not.

[RRR3]

The notion 1-2 games go differently in 2011 and Wade catapults to Kobe & Hakeem's tier all time is fcking laughable :lol Him falling off a cliff after 30 was what ended his top 10 contention.
LeBron plays 10% less scared in that series and Dirk is still known as a choker instead of top 25. Crazy how much people base off circumstances.

[3ba11]

The notion 1-2 games go differently in 2011 and Wade catapults to Kobe & Hakeem's tier all time is fcking laughable




You guys rank Lebron and his 4 rings highly even though 2 of them could've gone either way based on 1 possession and the bounce of the ball, so you guys rank Lebron highly based on the bounce of the ball and one possession that could've gone either way - Lebron is literally a bounce or 2 away from being a 2/10 bum and not a top 10 player

so why can't we recognize that Wade was a bounce or 2 away from being borderline top 10 player with 4 chips and 2 FMVP, since we acknowledge that Lebron is a bounce or 2 away from being 2/10 and NOT being a top 10 all-time player?

[tpols]

Btw, I don't think Westbrook is a smaller thinker than Lebron - Lebron was simply willing to seek that cheatcode (super-team), while Westbrook had a more competitive mindset.. until now obviously - finally westbrook's interests align with lebron's (ring-chasing)

They put homie in a dress after he signed with LA. :lol

https://lakersdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screen-Shot-2021-09-13-at-11.07.47-AM.jpg

He selling out for the ring. Straight illuminati shit.

They put Rodman in one too for the Bulls. Ain't seen MJ in a dress.

[SouBeachTalents]

You guys rank Lebron and his 4 rings highly even though 2 of them could've gone either way based on 1 possession and the bounce of the ball, so you guys rank Lebron highly based on the bounce of the ball and one possession that could've gone either way - Lebron is literally a bounce or 2 away from being a 2/10 bum and not a top 10 player

so why can't we recognize that Wade was a bounce or 2 away from being borderline top 10 player with 4 chips and 2 FMVP, since we acknowledge that Lebron is a bounce or 2 away from being 2/10 and NOT being a top 10 all-time player?
Does Wade have 4 MVP's, 17 All-NBA Teams while being top 5 in virtually every record? Dumb comparison as always. Even without 2 rings LeBron would probably still be considered a top 5 player and consensus top 10.

And of course you won't bring up the fact LeBron could've had more rings had he had a better supporting cast in Cleveland and if Kyrie/Love not gotten injured in 2015.

[j3lademaster]

They put homie in a dress after he signed with LA. :lol

https://lakersdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screen-Shot-2021-09-13-at-11.07.47-AM.jpg

He selling out for the ring. Straight illuminati shit.

They put Rodman in one too for the Bulls. Ain't seen MJ in a dress.


https://youtu.be/26I3Cfj7m2I

[RRR3]

Why do people act like LeBron would have lost if Kyrie bricked that shot? The game was tied with ~50 seconds left lmao. It was a huge shot but it didn’t “save” anything.

[RRR3]

Does Wade have 4 MVP's, 17 All-NBA Teams while being top 5 in virtually every record? Dumb comparison as always. Even without 2 rings LeBron would probably still be considered a top 5 player and consensus top 10.

And of course you won't bring up the fact LeBron could've had more rings had he had a better supporting cast in Cleveland and if Kyrie/Love not gotten injured in 2015.
He also won’t bring up the fact that Kobe would have 2 less rings without bailout shots and confirmed rigged refeereing (2002, 2010). Even the 2009 finals could have gone very differently without Fisher’s bailout shots tbh.

[3ba11]

Does Wade have 4 MVP's, 17 All-NBA Teams while being top 5 in virtually every record? Dumb comparison as always. Even without 2 rings LeBron would probably still be considered a top 5 player and consensus top 10.





4 MVP and 2 chips is borderline top 10 and certainly below Kobe's 5 chips

2 chips is more like Hakeem or Kawhi-level and no one cares about media awards as much as actual chips






And of course you won't bring up the fact LeBron could've had more rings had he had a better supporting cast in Cleveland and if Kyrie/Love not gotten injured in 2015.





Let's get the historical record straight here - Lebron needs big 3's to win, or he needs his sidekick to outscore him in the playoffs (AD) - that's the historical record

So when did Lebron win with a single star sidekick that wasn't a 1b?... Are you saying that "if lebron's Cleveland teams were super-teams or had AD, he would've won more chips"

is that what you're saying??... no shit sherlock... who can't win with the help lebron has needed to win

And why can't he win with less help you ask?... It's because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is too ball-dominant to win (09'), or too inefficient at the higher volume (15'), aka too much jumpshooting required at the higher volumes (we know that lebron is bad at contested jumpers and infact avoids them altogether)

the facts always come together to tell the truth

[RRR3]

He also won’t bring up the fact that Kobe would have 2 less rings without bailout shots and confirmed rigged refeereing (2002, 2010). Even the 2009 finals could have gone very differently without Fisher’s bailout shots tbh.
Snivelly?

[3ba11]

Snivelly?


kobe got doubled so he got artest the shot, whereas kyrie's shot was an iso, and bosh got allen the shot by tipping the rebound - so lebron was carried - his teammates bailed him out twice

[outofstomach]

So we are officially gonna overrate Westbrook now that he's a teammate of Lebron :lol

Can't say I didn't see that coming. Westbrook gonna get shit on by Lebron fam and propped up by Lebron haters. Let's get it on :rockon:

oh no, i will stay consistent with my westbrook hate

overrated statpadding low IQ chucking loser, never liked him, can’t wait to watch him and lebron implode

[Phoenix]

The notion 1-2 games go differently in 2011 and Wade catapults to Kobe & Hakeem's tier all time is fcking laughable :lol Him falling off a cliff after 30 was what ended his top 10 contention.

Yep. Even as a Wade fan I can admit that's a hell of a stretch. But hey, it's Tpols. Hell, if Wade played at the same level in 2013 as he did in 2011, it's not going to take 7 games and a miracle 3 by Ray Allen to beat the Spurs.

[3ba11]

The notion 1-2 games go differently in 2011 and Wade catapults to Kobe & Hakeem's tier all time is fcking laughable :lol Him falling off a cliff after 30 was what ended his top 10 contention.


That's what we do with Lebron and most players - if 1 or 2 possessions go differently, then Lebron would have 2 rings (2/10), which would instantly take him out of the top 3 or top 5 even borderline top 10

But those couple bounces went Lebron's way so he's in the goat conversation

[000]

Wait a minute... earlier in this thread I read that Lebron shot 35% in a playoff series, when did that happen?

[3ba11]

It's happening.. :confusedshrug:

[NBAGOAT]

Ah yes one game proves Westbrook should be the lead ball handler. Even if that was the case, lebrons likely more impactful because of defense

[SouBeachTalents]

As impressive as the Lakers were tonight, remember the Bulls did this 55 times in '94.

[GimmeThat]

the guy who never took the pay-cut, is now going to challenge the guy who took a pay-cut, at pay-cutting.

[3ba11]

the Bulls did this 55 times in '94.


While pursuing a 4-peat and after upgrading the entire roster

So apples and oranges

And Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker (5 apg) that never dominated, while Westbrook is entirely dominant and far superior... Pippen averages half of Westbrook across the board (pts, rebs, assists), so Jordan won 6 chips with half a Westbrook

[dreamwarrior]

They struggled to beat the worst team in the league.

[3ba11]

They struggled to beat the worst team in the league.


They lost twice with Lebron already and 1-0 with Westbrook at the helm

[SouBeachTalents]

While pursuing a 4-peat and after upgrading the entire roster

So apples and oranges

And Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker (5 apg) that never dominated, while Westbrook is entirely dominant and far superior... Pippen averages half of Westbrook across the board (pts, rebs, assists), so Jordan won 6 chips with half a Westbrook
2022 Westbrook >>> 1994 Pippen. You heard it here first :lol

[3ba11]

2022 Westbrook >>> 1994 Pippen. You heard it here first :lol


Westbrook just had a better game than Pippen ever did and this is routine for Russ - only Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance destroys him and players in general

[ImKobe]

2022 Westbrook >>> 1994 Pippen. You heard it here first :lol

He could be if he can stay healthy. Did you not see what he did last season when he finally healed from his injury with his team having next to 0 odds of making the POs? Pippen never had a RS run like that.

In the last 29 games of the RS, he averaged 23/14/14 and his team went 19 - 10 (54-win pace). He had 24 triple-doubles in that stretch. That Washington team was mediocre at best with no depth and Beal played hurt & missed some games in the 2nd half of that season too.

[Phoenix]

It's happening.. :confusedshrug:
Dat single game empirical evidence. :applause:

[LeCola]

2022 Westbrook >>> 1994 Pippen. You heard it here first :lol

Also,

2022 Davis > 2022 Westbrook > 2022 Lebron