Pippen's leadership & floor generalship will challenge Jordan's for supremacy

[JohnMax]

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/michael-jordan-playoff-wins-losses

In 179 playoffs games Jordan is 119-60 but without Pippen's leadership & floor generalship

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

[2much_knowledge]

Scottie was great at handing out water bottles at 98, missed around 40 games and the team still went for 60+ wins.

Where did Scotties leadership went at Houston??

[TheCorporation]

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/michael-jordan-playoff-wins-losses

In 179 playoffs games Jordan is 119-60 but without Pippen's leadership & floor generalship

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:lebronamazed: ! :lebronamazed: ! :lebronamazed: !

[3ba11]

You guys weaponize a coincidence, which is low character - Jordan's only years without Pippen happened to be his first few years (where no one wins playoff series, aka Lebron/Durant/Curry/Giannis - everyone), or when he was 40.

And Pippen was a low-producing bum - it's like saying Lebron never won without James Jones - Jordan winning with just Pippen is a GOOD thing - almost no one wins without a sidekick that won FMVP or averaged 25 ppg - aka almost no one wins with true 2nd options (low producers) like MJ did with Pippen

[000]

And Pippen was a low-producing bum - it's like saying Lebron never won without James Jones
yeah theyre both wrong

[Nikola_]

en route to 60 wins in 98 without no tippin pippin- pippin missed 40 games

also

34-31 95 bulls, along came mike - 13-4 after

[expansionera]

I hate Jordan

[97 bulls]

en route to 60 wins in 98 without no tippin pippin- pippin missed 40 games

also

34-31 95 bulls, along came mike - 13-4 after

Funny thing is the Bulls won 69 games the previous year in 97. They were on a 56 win pace without Pippen. That's a 13 game drop. And the Bulls signed Scott Burrell who was a solid SF.

Pippen and Jordan had virtually the same effect on a team when it comes to Wins.

[Gohan]

Funny thing is the Bulls won 69 games the previous year in 97. They were on a 56 win pace without Pippen. That's a 13 game drop. And the Bulls signed Scott Burrell who was a solid SF.

Pippen and Jordan had virtually the same effect on a team when it comes to Wins.

I could trust jordan to win a chip on the bulls before scottie. Phil>scottie

[3ba11]

Funny thing is the Bulls won 69 games the previous year in 97. They were on a 56 win pace without Pippen. That's a 13 game drop. And the Bulls signed Scott Burrell who was a solid SF.

Pippen and Jordan had virtually the same effect on a team when it comes to Wins.

It's easy to latch on to a championship team and system as a secondary producer - otoh, Pippen would've lost the 1989 1st Round and the Bulls would've never been contenders in the first place..

Can Pippen average 40/6/8 on 52% to beat the #1 SRS team in the league and single-handedly turn the team from lottery-caliber to championship contender in 1 playoff run?

I didn't think so... :whatever:

so you're just using euphemisms to describe a low-producing, defensive role player like Pippen - spotty scorers that play defense are called defensive role players.. Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat including 2 Finals of 15.7 ppg - so that's a defensive role player production and efficiency.. the idea that he accounted for wins is ridiculous.

[Axe]

So op hates jordan now too? Wow. :ohwell:

[97 bulls]

I could trust jordan to win a chip on the bulls before scottie. Phil>scottie

You might be right. But the results don't say you are.

[97 bulls]

It's easy to latch on to a championship team and system as a secondary producer - otoh, Pippen would've lost the 1989 1st Round and the Bulls would've never been contenders in the first place..

Can Pippen average 40/6/8 on 52% to beat the #1 SRS team in the league and single-handedly turn the team from lottery-caliber to championship contender in 1 playoff run?

I didn't think so... :whatever:

so you're just using euphemisms to describe a low-producing, defensive role player like Pippen - spotty scorers that play defense are called defensive role players.. Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat including 2 Finals of 15.7 ppg - so that's a defensive role player production and efficiency.. the idea that he accounted for wins is ridiculous.

Who latched on to who with regards to winning? The Bulls werent winning anything when Jordan arrived and they weren't winning when Pippen showed up. They learned how to win TOGETHER.

I'm sorry bro, but the truth don't care about your feelings.

[3ba11]

Who latched on to who with regards to winning? The Bulls werent winning anything when Jordan arrived and they weren't winning when Pippen showed up. They learned how to win TOGETHER.

I'm sorry bro, but the truth don't care about your feelings.


Jordan had to "learn how to win" with the lowest-producing sidekick of any top 10 player, or of anyone that won multiple rings.

That's the historical record.. So you're just weaponizing a coincidence - the coincidence being that Pippen happened to be the sidekick that MJ won chips with - many higher-producing players would've won with MJ from 88-90' or 95' - only a bum like Pippen loses with the goat in those years..

A guy that you think is worse than Pippen - Piston-killer Worthy - he would've never lost to the Bad Boys with MJ... ditto Nique, X-man or any number of higher-producers than Pippen (X-man was a 22/10 defender and averaged 25/9/4 against the 87' Lakers in the WCF, aka better than Pippen ever played... and he outplayed Pippen heads-up in the infamous 92' ECSF)

[97 bulls]

Jordan had to "learn how to win" with the lowest-producing sidekick of any top 10 player, or of anyone that won multiple rings.

That's the historical record.. So you're just weaponizing a coincidence - the coincidence being that Pippen happened to be the sidekick that MJ won chips with - many higher-producing players would've won with MJ from 88-90' or 95' - only a bum like Pippen loses with the goat in those years..

A guy that you think is worse than Pippen - Piston-killer Worthy - he would've never lost to the Bad Boys with MJ... ditto Nique, X-man or any number of higher-producers than Pippen (X-man was a 22/10 defender and averaged 25/9/4 against the 87' Lakers in the WCF, aka better than Pippen ever played... and he outplayed Pippen heads-up in the infamous 92' ECSF)
Or, Pippen had to learn how to win with the biggest ballhog ever. See what I did there? And it's not a coincidence.

Jordan ran PG on the Bulls, they lost. Move Pippen to PG, they win championships. Same team.

Jordan has a worse record than Pippen does without playing with each other.

The Bulls have a better record without Jordan than without Pippen going back to 85. You argue stats. I argue results.

[3ba11]

Or, Pippen had to learn how to win with the biggest ballhog ever. See what I did there? And it's not a coincidence.

Jordan ran PG on the Bulls, they lost. Move Pippen to PG, they win championships. Same team.

Jordan has a worse record than Pippen does without playing with each other.

The Bulls have a better record without Jordan than without Pippen going back to 85. You argue stats. I argue results.


If one of the key factors that you base your argument upon is wrong, then doesn't that mean you're wrong?

So when you say that Pippen "took over" the PG role, this is factually incorrect - Jordan averaged 11 apg in the 91' Finals and led the Bulls in playoff APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, including the 91', 93' and 97' Playoffs (3 title runs).

Furthermore, there's less available shots for Jordan to assist on because Jordan's can't assist on his own shots and his volume is higher than Pippen's - that's why jordan's assist PERCENTAGE was much higher than Pippen's - Jordan assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage)..

So you're wrong on every level when you say Pippen took over the PG role, including the fact that the Bulls' offense had no PG role.. Ultimately, Jordan doubled Pippen's playoff scoring while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often with more DPOY votes every year too - that's the goat load.

And Jordan has a worse record without playing with each other because his time without Pippen happened to be the first few years of his career, when no one wins playoff series (lebron, giannis, curry, kyrie, KD).. Otoh, Pippen's time without MJ was after the team 3-peated and had this 3-peat system plus the addition of a 2nd Horace Grant-caliber player (kukoc)... Night and day..

Btw, Jordan was 30-12 without Pippen from 91-98', but the difference is that a Jordan-led team can be a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of the ball) and championship-caliber, while a Pippen-led team can only be a 1-way defensive team and will always be a bad offensive team... An example of Jordan not needing Pippen can be seen by looking at the 94' Playoffs - Pippen's 21.7 on 40% nearly beat Ewing's Knicks because that Bulls' cast had a 2nd Horace Grant (Kukoc) that Jordan never had - if we inserted conservative numbers for Jordan in Pippen's place (28 on 45%) - that beats Ewing easily, and beats Hakeem since Ewing's 18 on 35% nearly beat Hakeem.

[97 bulls]

If one of the key factors that you base your argument upon is wrong, then doesn't that mean you're wrong?

So when you say that Pippen "took over" the PG role, this is factually incorrect - Jordan averaged 11 apg in the 91' Finals and led the Bulls in playoff APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, including the 91', 93' and 97' Playoffs (3 title runs).

Furthermore, there's less available shots for Jordan to assist on because Jordan's can't assist on his own shots and his volume is higher than Pippen's - that's why jordan's assist PERCENTAGE was much higher than Pippen's - Jordan assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage)..

So you're wrong on every level when you say Pippen took over the PG role, including the fact that the Bulls' offense had no PG role.. Ultimately, Jordan doubled Pippen's playoff scoring while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often with more DPOY votes every year too - that's the goat load.

And Jordan has a worse record without playing with each other because his time without Pippen happened to be the first few years of his career, when no one wins playoff series (lebron, giannis, curry, kyrie, KD).. Otoh, Pippen's time without MJ was after the team 3-peated and had this 3-peat system plus the addition of a 2nd Horace Grant-caliber player (kukoc)... Night and day..

Btw, Jordan was 30-12 without Pippen from 91-98', but the difference is that a Jordan-led team can be a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of the ball) and championship-caliber, while a Pippen-led team can only be a 1-way defensive team and will always be a bad offensive team... An example of Jordan not needing Pippen can be seen by looking at the 94' Playoffs - Pippen's 21.7 on 40% nearly beat Ewing's Knicks because that Bulls' cast had a 2nd Horace Grant (Kukoc) that Jordan never had - if we inserted conservative numbers for Jordan in Pippen's place (28 on 45%) - that beats Ewing easily, and beats Hakeem since Ewing's 18 on 35% nearly beat Hakeem.
Lol. Don't narrow it down to 91-98. And I question that. I'm talking about their CAREERS. Your stats don't mean a damn thing when it's compared to WINS. That's why we play. TO WIN.

There's a hell of a lot more involved to being a PG than just assists. Pippen ran the offense. He called the plays, told players where to go, who they're gonna go after on the opposing team, kept all of his teammates involved. He was better at running an offense than Jordan. And that's why they were more successful when Jackson took the ball out of the hands of MJ and gave it to Pippen.

[3ba11]

Lol. Don't narrow it down to 91-98. And I question that. I'm talking about their CAREERS. Your stats don't mean a damn thing when it's compared to WINS. That's why we play. TO WIN.





We have to compare apples to apples - those are the years that prime Jordan had a championship system like prime Pippen had in 94'.. Otoh, rookei Jordan had lottery teams, so we would have to compare that to rookie Pippen, who was an 8 ppg bench-warmer.

Ultimately, peak Pippen had 1 decent regular season with a 3-peat cast/system but wouldn't make the playoffs the 85-87' Bulls because they were lottery casts and the conference was much tougher (super-team required to win it)... Pippen was just lucky that he came along after the super-team 80's, when expansion spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win (90's) - anyone wins alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

Ultimately, it's coincidence that Pippen happened to be the sidekick that Jordan won 6 rings with - so you're weaponizing a coincidence - Pippen was among the lowest-producing winning sidekicks ever with zero instances of him dominating in the playoffs.. So he's the perfect guy to demonstrate that it was just a coincidence and Jordan is goat, yet you're denying the facts and pretending he was a dominant player and not a low-producing coattailer.






There's a hell of a lot more involved to being a PG than just assists. Pippen ran the offense. He called the plays, told players where to go, who they're gonna go after on the opposing team, kept all of his teammates involved. He was better at running an offense than Jordan. And that's why they were more successful when Jackson took the ball out of the hands of MJ and gave it to Pippen.





Nope - Pippen didn't do any of that - everyone ran the same routes in the triangle (equal-opportunity) and didn't need anyone to tell them where to be.. It's funny because Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker (5 apg), so by saying that Jordan benefitted from Pippen's mid-tier floor game, you're conceding that Jordan would've benefitted far more with an elite floor leader like Stockton, Payton, or Harden, who average twice the assists as Pippen.

And Jordan assisted on the the largest percentage of Bulls' field goals (assist percengage), while also closing the highest-ever percentage of possessions himself (usage).. So Jordan controlled all the action and led the #1 offense all-time, while Pippen led the #14 offense among 94' teams.

Ultimately, the 94' Bulls had the same defensive ranking as the 1st three-peat Bulls, so the historic drop from 3-peat to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which caused their offense to crater from from #1 all-time to 14th in the league in 1994.

Furthermore, the 2nd three-peat Bulls had goat offenses despite the least offensive help in history - they played 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, while Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat.

So you've gotten accustomed to fabricating false pleasantries about Pippen's defense and hustle because you can't compliment his offense like you can most players - with guys like Kyrie, Worthy, Wade or Middleton, we can just point to their dominant series or games where they completely took over - but people can't do that with Pippen, so they lionize role player shit for him, aka defense, hustle and shit that don't matter for a 2nd option - if a 2nd option fails his scoring role, then he isn't a 2nd option and is a defensive role player with defensive role player stats.

[2much_knowledge]

en route to 60 wins in 98 without no tippin pippin- pippin missed 40 games

also

34-31 95 bulls, along came mike - 13-4 after

Dead in the water. They act like 1995 never happened lol

[ELITEpower23]

Dead in the water. They act like 1995 never happened lol

You act like 1994 never happened. Imagine if Pippen took 2 years off in 95 and came back fresh like Mikey Mouse.

[Axe]

I just realized op made this thread because of 3ball.

[8Ball]

Pippen won 55 games with a mediocre cast of characters in 1994.

Pippen Ball is what Jordan needed.

[2much_knowledge]

You act like 1994 never happened. Imagine if Pippen took 2 years off in 95 and came back fresh like Mikey Mouse.

Second round, game 7 exit

Just like a healthy Wade did in 2016, Second round game 7 exit. (No lebron, no Bosh.

[3ba11]

Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

[3ba11]

.
TLDR: Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.



* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown below:


1988 1st Round

Pippen'....... 10.6 ppg... 47.1 fg... 49.4 ts
L Nance...... 16.8 ppg... 53.1 fg... 58.4 ts


1988 2nd Round

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 45.8 fg... 48.5 ts
Dantley...... 18.6 ppg... 50.0 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 1st Round

Pippen....... 15.0 ppg... 39.7 fg... 51.0 ts
L Nance..... 19.4 ppg... 55.1 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 2nd Round

Pippen....... 14.8 ppg... 58.1 fg... 64.5 ts
Newman.... 15.5 ppg... 45.8 fg... 56.0 ts


1989 ECF

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 40.4 fg... 45.3 ts
Johnson..... 13.7 ppg... 53.3 fg... 59.6 ts


1990 1st Round

Pippen....... 22.5 ppg... 57.1 fg... 63.4 ts
Pierce........ 22.3 ppg... 46.7 fg... 60.4 ts


1990 2nd Round

Pippen........ 20.8 ppg... 53.3 fg... 58.1 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 62.6 ts


1990 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 42.6 fg... 52.0 ts
Isiah'......... 17.6 ppg... 39.0 fg... 51.0 ts


1991 1st Round

Pippen....... 19.7 ppg... 50.0 fg... 55.2 ts
Ewing........ 16.7 ppg... 40.0 fg... 47.3 ts


1991 2nd Round

Pippen........ 23.4 ppg... 57.1 fg... 60.9 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 43.1 fg... 64.4 ts


1991 ECF

Pippen......... 22.5 ppg... 47.5 fg... 56.3 ts
Aguirre........ 16.8 ppg... 45.3 fg... 55.4 ts


1991 Finals

Pippen'...... 20.6 ppg... 45.3 fg... 52.7 ts
Magic........ 18.3 ppg... 43.1 fg... 61.2 ts


1992 1st Round

Pippen....... 24.0 ppg... 55.3 fg... 63.0 ts
Ewing........ 19.0 ppg... 37.5 fg... 42.5 ts


1992 2nd Round

Pippen'....... 16.0 ppg... 40.4 fg... 49.3 ts
X-Man........ 18.6 ppg... 49.6 fg... 52.7 ts


1992 ECF

Pippen....... 19.8 ppg... 47.3 fg... 53.6 ts
Nance........ 17.8 ppg... 46.7 fg... 51.9 ts


1992 Finals

Pippen'....... 20.8 ppg... 48.4 fg... 56.0 ts
Porter......... 16.2 ppg... 47.1 fg... 57.1 ts


1993 1st Round

Pippen...... 15.3 ppg... 42.2 fg... 45.7 ts
Willis........ 16.7 ppg... 46.7 fg... 48.9 ts


1993 2nd Round

Pippen......... 18.3 ppg... 47.5 fg... 51.0 ts
Daughtery.... 16.0 ppg... 56.1 fg... 56.1 ts


1993 ECF

Pippen'...... 22.5 ppg... 51.0 fg... 57.3 ts
Starks....... 15.2 ppg... 45.3 fg... 54.6 ts


1993 Finals

Pippen...... 21.2 ppg... 43.9 fg... 45.9 ts
Majerle..... 17.2 ppg... 44.3 fg... 58.7 ts


1994 1st Round

Pippen...... 25.3 ppg... 49.3 fg... 53.7 ts
Mills......... 17.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 59.5 ts


1994 2nd Round

Pippen...... 21.7 ppg... 40.5 fg... 51.3 ts
Ewing....... 22.9 ppg... 53.0 fg... 58.1 ts


1995 1st Round

Pippen........ 16.0 ppg... 51.2 fg... 60.2 ts
Johnson...... 20.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 54.6 ts


1995 2nd Round

Pippen'...... 19.0 ppg... 40.9 fg... 52.2 ts
Penny........ 18.5 ppg... 44.0 fg... 54.7 ts


1996 1st Round

Pippen..,,..... 19.7 ppg... 55.6 fg... 64.0 ts
Hardaway'.... 17.7 ppg... 46.5 fg... 57.5 ts


1996 2nd Round

Pippen..,,,,,.... 15.6 ppg... 33.0 fg... 41.6 ts
Oakley........... 13.4 ppg... 50.0 fg... 57.7 ts


1996 ECF

Pippen'...... 18.5 ppg... 45.3 fg... 50.8 ts
Penny........ 25.5 ppg... 46.9 fg... 55.2 ts


1996 Finals

Pippen...... 15.7 ppg... 34.0 fg... 42.9 ts
Payton...... 18.0 ppg... 44.4 fg... 53.2 ts


1997 1st Round

Pippen....... 16.7 ppg... 38.9 fg... 49.8 ts
Howard...... 18.7 ppg... 45.5 fg... 53.9 ts


1997 2nd Round

Pippen...... 22.2 ppg... 42.9 fg... 52.4 ts
Smith....... 17.6 ppg... 31.9 fg... 49.1 ts


1997 ECF

Pippen......... 16.8 ppg... 41.7 fg... 52.6 ts
Mourning..... 15.6 ppg... 46.8 fg... 56.2 ts


1997 Finals

Pippen....... 20.0 ppg... 42.1 fg... 54.1 ts
Stockton.... 15.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 61.3 ts


1998 1st Round

Pippen....... 18.0 ppg... 43.6 fg... 53.1 ts
Kitttles...... 16.3 ppg... 42.5 fg... 54.6 ts


1998 2nd Round

Pippen....... 17.8 ppg... 44.3 fg... 53.5 ts
Mason........ 12.6 ppg... 51.0 fg... 55.3 ts


1998 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 39.2 fg... 46.3 ts
Smits........ 16.3 ppg... 55.4 fg... 62.8 ts


1998 Finals

Pippen.......... 15.7 ppg... 41.0 fg... 50.2 ts
Hornacek...... 10.7 ppg... 41.1 fg... 50.1 ts


* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown above