Rookie Jordan already on the same tier as prime Bird and Magic?

[dankok8]

He obviously wasn't better but he was comparable...

I mean look at these stats.

Regular Season - 1985

Michael Jordan: 28.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg (2.0 o), 5.9 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.8 bpg on 59.2 %TS (+4.9 rTS) with 3.5 topg
Larry Bird: 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg (2.1 o), 6.6 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg on 58.5 %TS (+4.2 rTS) with 3.1 topg
Magic Johnson: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg (1.2 o), 12.6 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.3 bpg on 63.7 %TS (+9.4 rTS) with 4.0 topg

Playoffs - 1985

Michael Jordan: 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg (1.8 o), 8.5 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.5 %TS (+2.2 rTS) with 3.8 topg
Larry Bird: 26.0 ppg, 9.1 rpg (2.7 o), 5.8 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.0 bpg on 53.6 %TS (-0.7 rTS) with 2.9 topg
Magic Johnson: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg (1.0 o), 15.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.2 bpg on 59.9 %TS (+5.6 rTS) with 4.0 topg

[Kobe_Bryant]

bird on chicago in 85 would have averaged 40ppg

and they probly win more games


this is silly

jordan didn't become "that guy" till like 89/90

before that it was mostly stat padding and taking advantage of athleticism like lebron pre 2012

[3ba11]

.
2004 Cavs - 0 all-stars

2005 Cavs - 2 all-stars

2006 Cavs - 2 all-stars + 22/5/5 acquisition + future COY + top 4 defense


^^^ that's a lot of improvement

people forget that Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', and then Lebron stole Hughes to get his 1st playoff victory over Arenas in 06'...

aka Lebron's Cavs had 3 years to develop into favored, high seeds before entering the 06' Playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the Playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry a bad team/low seed.. Ultimately, Jordan carried lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds and therefore carried bad teams in the playoffs, while Lebron failed to carry lottery teams to low seeds in 04' 05' or 19', so he only had high seeds in the playoffs (good casts relative to conference) - he never actually carried "bums" like people say.

Ultimately, Lebron's 07' Cavs had the #4 defense (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls) and a 2-time all-star center at 3rd scoring option (Bulls never had a 3rd scoring option or all-star at 3rd option).. Then they added all-star Mo Williams in 2009 and Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win juggernaut in 2010 - all the while having a top defense.. So when people compare Lebron's early Cleveland casts (high seeds) to Jordan's early casts (bottom-dwelling casts that he carried to 8 seeds), they don't realize how big a gap there is.

[dankok8]

This isn't a Lebron thread guys and please don't derail it ffs...

[expansionera]

There’s an argument rookie Jordan was on the same level as rookie Magic, let alone prime. Both Bird and Magic instantly turned their respective rosters into contenders, Bird especially turned around a 20 win program into a 60 win team

[3ba11]

There’s an argument rookie Jordan was on the same level as rookie Magic, let alone prime. Both Bird and Magic instantly turned their respective rosters into contenders, Bird especially turned around a 20 win program into a 60 win team


Bird turned around a bum team like Jordan did, but Magic simply had Kareem - so Magic didn't do shit except play with Kareem, and his ball-dominance still almost produced a losing Finals record despite the best supporting talent in history.

[MadDog]

He was definitely on their level (especially when you account for defense, where MJ also carried high impact), which is telling given Bird and Magic are top 10 players. I think the only player(s) with a comparable dominant beginning (accounting for competition) has to be Kareem and/or Shaq.

[Phoenix]

Bird turned around a bum team like Jordan did, but Magic simply had Kareem - so Magic didn't do shit except play with Kareem, and his ball-dominance still almost produced a losing Finals record despite the best supporting talent in history.

You act like the Lakers lost to bums. The Moses Malone/Dr. J Sixers, the Bird/Mchale/Parish Celtics, the Pistons( and injuries derailed any shot of winning), and the Bulls led by the same guy you slurp on 50 times a day.

[3ba11]

You act like the Lakers lost to bums. .


If Jordan and his 2 all-star Bulls had lost to the 3 all-star Suns or 3 all-nba Sonics, then you'd be saying that about Jordan.

But Jordan didn't lose to opponents that had comparable talent to his own team - only ball-dominators like magic and lebron do that

If you gave Jordan a 3rd perennial all-star teammate like Lebron had, he would sweep any team in history

[Phoenix]

If Jordan and his 2 all-star Bulls had lost to the 3 all-star Suns or 3 all-nba Sonics, then you'd be saying that about Jordan.



No I wouldn't because those teams didn't feature players who were equal and/or superior to MJ. Bird is at the bare minimum, par with Magic and many feel peak for peak was better. The reason the 80's Lakers and Celtics were/are so revered as a rivalry was partly due to it being a mostly even matchup. If one team and/or player was much better than the other than it wouldn't be a rivalry and nobody would give a shit. Magic lost to the Bulls when he was on the downside of his prime, Kareem was retired, Worthy went down with injury, and ran into MJ at the peak of his powers and a young, hungry team whose time has come. Again, no shame in losing there.

So let's make this simple..... out of the Lakers 4 finals losses on Magic's watch, who are you saying they should have beaten if not for Magic's 'ball dominance'? And additionally, why didn't his 'ball dominance' hamper them the 5 times he won?

[expansionera]

Bird turned around a bum team like Jordan did, but Magic simply had Kareem - so Magic didn't do shit except play with Kareem, and his ball-dominance still almost produced a losing Finals record despite the best supporting talent in history.

Jordan never turned around a team, Scottie and Phil Jackson did :lol Jordan had Kemba Walker like impact, good stats bad team guy before PJax and Pippen provided him structure in the triangle and taught him how to play defense

[3ba11]

Jordan never turned around a team, Scottie and Phil Jackson did :lol Jordan had Kemba Walker like impact, good stats bad team guy before PJax and Pippen provided him structure in the triangle and taught him how to play defense


Jordan turned the 89' Bulls from a lottery team into a championship contender in that 1 postseason

If he doesn't average 40 and hit "the shot" to beat the #1 SRS Cavs that year, then the Bulls would've been lottery again instead of the championship contenders that they became in those playoffs - this run set up titles just 2 years later in 91', otherwise they would never have started winning titles in 91'.

And where was Pippen against the #1 SRS Cavs?... He was averaging 15 on 40% - so only Jordan beat top 5 SRS opponents with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only Jordan had carry-jobs against good teams (duncan in the 03' Finals is the only exception)..

Then Pippen averaged 9 on 40% against the Pistons in the ECF, so Pippen did nothing in those playoffs, while Jordan turned the team into a championship contender, which allowed titles just 2 years later in 91'.. (it would've been 90' but pippen's famous migraine ruined that title just like 89' and 88').. Anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's horrific play that caused it - this is the historical record, not my opinion - see the 92' 2nd Round or 98' ECF for excellent examples, or the 96' and 98' Finals... When a 2nd option can't score, then they aren't a 2nd option anymore and are just a defensive role player - that's what Pippen was for 90% of his playoff career.

[Round Mound]

Not quite. Jordan became the best player in the league the 1987-88 season.

[72-10]

Yes, one could draw comparisons without losing a sense of integrity to the game. He was already close to the best player in the world, although I don't think one particular play with the Bulls stands out to serve as an example. By the end of 1984, Jordan had already proven himself a better defender than Bird and Magic. But it's not as though an edifice could have born his name on Chicago Stadium without more work.

[TheCorporation]

THREAD TITLE: Rookie Jordan already on the same tier as prime Bird and Magic?

ShookBall:


.
2004 Cavs - 0 all-stars

2005 Cavs - 2 all-stars

2006 Cavs - 2 all-stars + 22/5/5 acquisition + future COY + top 4 defense


^^^ that's a lot of improvement

people forget that Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', and then Lebron stole Hughes to get his 1st playoff victory over Arenas in 06'...

aka Lebron's Cavs had 3 years to develop into favored, high seeds before entering the 06' Playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the Playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry a bad team/low seed.. Ultimately, Jordan carried lottery teams (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds and therefore carried bad teams in the playoffs, while Lebron failed to carry lottery teams to low seeds in 04' 05' or 19', so he only had high seeds in the playoffs (good casts relative to conference) - he never actually carried "bums" like people say.

Ultimately, Lebron's 07' Cavs had the #4 defense (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls) and a 2-time all-star center at 3rd scoring option (Bulls never had a 3rd scoring option or all-star at 3rd option).. Then they added all-star Mo Williams in 2009 and Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win juggernaut in 2010 - all the while having a top defense.. So when people compare Lebron's early Cleveland casts (high seeds) to Jordan's early casts (bottom-dwelling casts that he carried to 8 seeds), they don't realize how big a gap there is.

Wrote an essay about his GOAT LeBron

:roll:

[dankok8]

Not quite. Jordan became the best player in the league the 1987-88 season.

I agree that's when he became the best. I just said he was already on the same tier meaning comparable starting from 1985. Sometimes it gets overlooked how great MJ was as a rookie.

[bizil]

Well these things were DAMN TRUE after MJ's rookie year:

- Best SG in the world by a wide margin.
- When u factor both sides of the rock, ALREADY the best all around perimeter player.
- It was clear to see he redefined the SG position. The position had NEVER seen a player with Dr. J type size and athletic ability. With that type of total package game along with it. And frankly he AMPED UP the athletic ability Doc had brought to the table.
- Already was a top 5 player on the planet after his rookie year. And to be honest was already #3 only behind Magic and Bird. Moses and Isiah would round out my top five at this point. Kareem was past his prime because he wasn't as dominant defensively or on the glass anymore. But scoring wise, he was still a major threat. Doc was past his prime. Barkley and Hakeem weren't on that level yet. Even though The Dream was arguably a top 10 player in the world his rookie year already.

So when it comes to being a top 3-5 player in the world, MJ WAS on Bird and Magic's level in that sense. BUT he wasn't quite as good as them yet. I think in 86-87 MJ passed them by. However when u factor defense, MJ was INDEED the premier two way force perimeter wise in the world after his rookie season.

[expansionera]

Jordan turned the 89' Bulls from a lottery team into a championship contender in that 1 postseason

If he doesn't average 40 and hit "the shot" to beat the #1 SRS Cavs that year, then the Bulls would've been lottery again instead of the championship contenders that they became in those playoffs - this run set up titles just 2 years later in 91', otherwise they would never have started winning titles in 91'.

And where was Pippen against the #1 SRS Cavs?... He was averaging 15 on 40% - so only Jordan beat top 5 SRS opponents with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only Jordan had carry-jobs against good teams (duncan in the 03' Finals is the only exception)..

Then Pippen averaged 9 on 40% against the Pistons in the ECF, so Pippen did nothing in those playoffs, while Jordan turned the team into a championship contender, which allowed titles just 2 years later in 91'.. (it would've been 90' but pippen's famous migraine ruined that title just like 89' and 88').. Anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's horrific play that caused it - this is the historical record, not my opinion - see the 92' 2nd Round or 98' ECF for excellent examples, or the 96' and 98' Finals... When a 2nd option can't score, then they aren't a 2nd option anymore and are just a defensive role player - that's what Pippen was for 90% of his playoff career.

Wow you mean before Pippen became dominant MJ—in his prime—was capable of winning a first round series? I don’t know if we’ve ever seen a player have that type of impact before against an all time great team full of multiple Hall of Famers, surely?

[ClipperRevival]

https://vault.si.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_575/MTY5MDk4NDgyMTQxODMyNjY3/44293---toc-cover-image.webp

This is MJ's first cover appearance as a Bull on SI. Notice the date. This is about 2 months into his rookie season. So if you want to get a grasp on how the world viewed a rookie MJ, here it is.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1984/12/10/in-the-drivers-seat

[ClipperRevival]

Not quite. Jordan became the best player in the league the 1987-88 season.

MJs 1986-87 stats:

37.1 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.6 APG, 2.9 SPG, 1.5 BPG, 29.8 PER

Also led NBA in WS, OBPM, BPM, VORP

Not saying I disagree but damn. Literally video game numbers.

[Chick Stern]

Bird turned around a bum team like Jordan did, but Magic simply had Kareem - so Magic didn't do shit except play with Kareem, and his ball-dominance still almost produced a losing Finals record despite the best supporting talent in history.
Magic had one of the biggest Finals games of all time, and did it as a rookie.
He most certainly did shit.

[2much_knowledge]

As a player, yes. As a winner/leader... that took a while.

Bird and magic were better leaders but Mj defense closes that gap

[BigShotBob]

I see that we completely disregard defense.

[TAZORAC]

bird on chicago in 85 would have averaged 40ppg

and they probly win more games


this is silly

jordan didn't become "that guy" till like 89/90

before that it was mostly stat padding and taking advantage of athleticism like lebron pre 2012

Bird isn't athletics enough to average more then 16, when the defense is focused on him