We saw the difference between the GOAT and the FRAUD when opponents left them open

[3ba11]

.
One guy ended the series in Game 1 and blew everyone's mind with futuristic, Curry-level shooting (goat-caliber):


https://c.tenor.com/jzyxbbQnrRsAAAAM/michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-versus-portland-trail-blazers.gif



The other guy was shut down by Boris Diaw and needed a miracle to win the series (fraud caliber):


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/o7Nx6U.gif



Lebron shot 3-13 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5auU7uvwU) against Diaw in the series, including 1-8 in Game 5 (a loss)

He also averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games as teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Allen to force Game 7..

Furthermore, Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor, while his 25 on 44% overall stats weren't dominant (Wade was equal-scoring partner and outscored the opposing #1 option)

TLDR: Lebron sucked in the 2013 Finals and it's a worse Finals than any of Jordan's

[expansionera]

Lebron played against Hall of Famers Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (coached by Gregg Popovich) giving the quartet their singular Finals loss amongst five title wins

Why does Jordan get any credit whatsoever for beating up on the weakest Finals teams in all of history with a stacked cast that included Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Lebron beat the toughest competition consistently, Jordan statpadded against inferior teams

[Axe]

Lebron played against Hall of Famers Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (coached by Gregg Popovich) giving the quartet their singular Finals loss amongst five title wins

Why does Jordan get any credit whatsoever for beating up on the weakest Finals teams in all of history with a stacked cast that included Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Lebron beat the toughest competition consistently, Jordan statpadded against inferior teams
Meltdown

[3ba11]

Lebron played against Hall of Famers Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (coached by Gregg Popovich) giving the quartet their singular Finals loss amongst five title wins

Why does Jordan get any credit whatsoever for beating up on the weakest Finals teams in all of history with a stacked cast that included Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Lebron beat the toughest competition consistently, Jordan statpadded against inferior teams


Jordan never had a 3rd perennial all-star teammate (big 3)

If he had a 3rd star, he'd sweep any team in history

Furthermore, the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had 3 perennial all-stars, so Jordan actually beat teams that had more legit all-stars.

Kyrie/Love were perennial all-stars in 2016 compared to Klay/Dray 1st timers... so Lebron never defeated superior talent in the Finals like MJ did

[expansionera]

Jordan never had a 3rd perennial all-star teammate (big 3)

If he had a 3rd star, he'd sweep any team in history

Furthermore, Jordan actually beat teams that had more all-stars (93' Suns and 96' Sonics), while Lebron always had equal or more all-stars

Kyrie/Love were perennial all-stars in 2016, while Klay/Dray were 1st timers

Jordan just stacked the deck with a plethora of perennial all nba defensive players. Not to mention Jordan had the absolute best sidekick in the NBA at the time who was superior to the majority of first options he defeated in the Finals, and Dennis Rodman who is undeniably one of the greatest defensive forwards in history and a first ballot Hall of Fame player. Add to that guys like Kukoc (HoF) and Horace Grant, as well as all stars like Armstrong, his cast was the very best in the league every year he won a title.

When Jordan did not play on a stacked team he went 1-9

Lebron beat literal super teams with aging decrepit former stars on their way out of the league (K Love, Bosh and Wade were never effective again after dealing with the wear and tear of multiple Finals appearances). Nor did Lebron need to quit and rest up while his team reloaded with Hall of Fame talent to win titles

Suffice to say Jordan just really sucks and Lebron is a superior player with better legacy

[Bronbron23]

.
One guy ended the series in Game 1 and blew everyone's mind with futuristic, Curry-level shooting (goat-caliber):


https://c.tenor.com/jzyxbbQnrRsAAAAM/michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-versus-portland-trail-blazers.gif



The other guy was shut down by Boris Diaw and needed a miracle to win the series (fraud caliber):


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/o7Nx6U.gif



Lebron shot 3-13 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5auU7uvwU) against Diaw in the series, including 1-8 in Game 5 (a loss)

He also averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games as teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Allen to force Game 7..

Furthermore, Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor, while his 25 on 44% overall stats weren't dominant (Wade was equal-scoring partner and outscored the opposing #1 option)

TLDR: Lebron sucked in the 2013 Finals and it's a worse Finals than any of Jordan's

How did mj end the series in game 1? Especially after Portland took game 2 and took homecourt advantage?

[3ba11]

How did mj end the series in game 1? Especially after Portland took game 2 and took homecourt advantage?


Game 1 let the Blazers know that their core strategy of forcing MJ to shoot threes wasn't going to work - so he forced the Blazers to change their core strategy and play catch up for the whole series.

Everyone knew the Blazers couldn't overcome Jordan after Game 1 - when a player pops off in the Finals like a peak Curry regular season game, the opponent has no choice but to make big adjustments from that point forward, which gives the Bulls control.. It's similar to Game 4 of the 93' ECF when MJ was unshackled for 54 points on all jumpers - the Knicks knew they had to double Jordan after that, which gave the Bulls strategic control.

Otoh, Lebron lacks the skill to win with high scoring, so he doesn't get doubled - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volumes (15'), so opponents play Lebron straight up (stay at home) and lock down his teammates - that's why the story of Lebron's career is teammates underperforming and needing MOAR HELP - in addition to not getting doubled which causes teammate underperformance and need for more help, Lebron also needs more help because he reduces everyone to spot-up shooter, and therefore needs a constant stream of more help, like a ponzi scheme

[NBAGOAT]

Game 1 let the Blazers know that their core strategy of forcing MJ to shoot threes wasn't going to work - so he forced the Blazers to change their core strategy and play catch up for the whole series.

Everyone knew the Blazers couldn't overcome Jordan after Game 1 - when a player pops off in the Finals like a peak Curry regular season game, the opponent has no choice but to make big adjustments from that point forward, which gives the Bulls control.. It's similar to Game 4 of the 93' ECF when MJ was unshackled for 54 points on all jumpers - the Knicks knew they had to double Jordan after that, which gave the Bulls strategic control.

Otoh, Lebron lacks the skill to win with high scoring, so he doesn't get doubled - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volumes (15'), so opponents play Lebron straight up (stay at home) and lock down his teammates - that's why the story of Lebron's career is teammates underperforming and needing MOAR HELP - in addition to not getting doubled which causes teammate underperformance and need for more help, Lebron also needs more help because he reduces everyone to spot-up shooter, and therefore needs a constant stream of more help, like a ponzi scheme

The blazers changing strategies doesn’t mean the series was over lol

[AirBonner]

LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe

[ShawkFactory]

The blazers changing strategies doesn’t mean the series was over lol

I remember he was a big believer as to how the Clippers changed their strategy against the Suns, and how the series was then over. He was talking about how switching your game up is a sign of a good team, and they the effective switcher then has control.

[Axe]

Jordan just stacked the deck with a plethora of perennial all nba defensive players. Not to mention Jordan had the absolute best sidekick in the NBA at the time who was superior to the majority of first options he defeated in the Finals, and Dennis Rodman who is undeniably one of the greatest defensive forwards in history and a first ballot Hall of Fame player. Add to that guys like Kukoc (HoF) and Horace Grant, as well as all stars like Armstrong, his cast was the very best in the league every year he won a title.

When Jordan did not play on a stacked team he went 1-9

Lebron beat literal super teams with aging decrepit former stars on their way out of the league (K Love, Bosh and Wade were never effective again after dealing with the wear and tear of multiple Finals appearances). Nor did Lebron need to quit and rest up while his team reloaded with Hall of Fame talent to win titles

Suffice to say Jordan just really sucks and Lebron is a superior player with better legacy
Meltdown by 8 year old

[NBAGOAT]

I remember he was a big believer as to how the Clippers changed their strategy against the Suns, and how the series was then over. He was talking about how switching your game up is a sign of a good team, and they the effective switcher then has control.

Yea typical 3ball and ofc he got that prediction wrong when Suns were the favorites. He’s always the one making outlandish claims or attacking other stars and the reasonable posters have to play defense. Also he constantly pivots to different talking points in the same thread. It’s annoying to argue with but I had some time today lol.

[Bronbron23]

Game 1 let the Blazers know that their core strategy of forcing MJ to shoot threes wasn't going to work - so he forced the Blazers to change their core strategy and play catch up for the whole series.

Everyone knew the Blazers couldn't overcome Jordan after Game 1 - when a player pops off in the Finals like a peak Curry regular season game, the opponent has no choice but to make big adjustments from that point forward, which gives the Bulls control.. It's similar to Game 4 of the 93' ECF when MJ was unshackled for 54 points on all jumpers - the Knicks knew they had to double Jordan after that, which gave the Bulls strategic control.

Otoh, Lebron lacks the skill to win with high scoring, so he doesn't get doubled - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volumes (15'), so opponents play Lebron straight up (stay at home) and lock down his teammates - that's why the story of Lebron's career is teammates underperforming and needing MOAR HELP - in addition to not getting doubled which causes teammate underperformance and need for more help, Lebron also needs more help because he reduces everyone to spot-up shooter, and therefore needs a constant stream of more help, like a ponzi scheme

Come on man your being dramatic. The series was tied and blazers haf home court advantage. It wasn't a foregone conclusion at all at that moment

[3ba11]

I remember he was a big believer as to how the Clippers changed their strategy against the Suns, and how the series was then over. He was talking about how switching your game up is a sign of a good team, and they the effective switcher then has control.


PG couldn't overcome the talent deficit, but that doesn't change the point being made

Jordan gave the Bulls strategic advantage by going off in Game 1 and forcing the Blazers to change their strategy - the Bulls could now anticipate double-teams and set up role players in spots - notice how Pippen had higher Finals stats during the 1st three-peat because MJ had higher stats/domination and was attracting more doubles.. Jordan lifted all boats

In addition to attracting all the defensive attention, Jordan elevated teammates by being an assist target off-ball, thereby elevating teammate role to playmaker so young ball-handlers like Pippen could grow.. Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominance reduces teammates to spot-up roles that are COVERED (no doubles on Lebron), so Hughes and Ingram are destroyed.. aka night and day

[AirBonner]

PG couldn't overcome the talent deficit, but that doesn't change the point being made

Jordan gave the Bulls strategic advantage by going off in Game 1 and forcing the Blazers to change their strategy - the Bulls could now anticipate double-teams and set up role players in spots - notice how Pippen had higher Finals stats during the 1st three-peat because MJ had higher stats/domination and was attracting more doubles.. Jordan lifted all boats

In addition to attracting all the defensive attention, Jordan elevated teammates by being an assist target off-ball, thereby elevating teammate role to playmaker so young ball-handlers like Pippen could grow.. Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominance reduces teammates to spot-up roles that are COVERED (no doubles on Lebron), so Hughes and Ingram are destroyed.. aka night and day
LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe

[Dagoods]

TIM DUNCAN made them HoFamers.

Just like JORDAN made the likes of Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Phil Jackson, and one day Steve Kerr HoFamers.

[TheCorporation]

1-9 is Fraud

Period.

[ShawkFactory]

PG couldn't overcome the talent deficit, but that doesn't change the point being made

Jordan gave the Bulls strategic advantage by going off in Game 1 and forcing the Blazers to change their strategy - the Bulls could now anticipate double-teams and set up role players in spots - notice how Pippen had higher Finals stats during the 1st three-peat because MJ had higher stats/domination and was attracting more doubles.. Jordan lifted all boats

In addition to attracting all the defensive attention, Jordan elevated teammates by being an assist target off-ball, thereby elevating teammate role to playmaker so young ball-handlers like Pippen could grow.. Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominance reduces teammates to spot-up roles that are COVERED (no doubles on Lebron), so Hughes and Ingram are destroyed.. aka night and day

The opposite of what you’re trying to say is what your stance was. The Suns dominated the series (up 3-1) and forced the opposition to make a strategic change. Once that strategic change happened you commended the strategic changer.

Now you’re saying the team that causes the strategic changes in others is the one with the advantage and is the one to be commended.

You make no sense.

[3ba11]

The opposite of what you’re trying to say is what your stance was. The Suns dominated the series (up 3-1) and forced the opposition to make a strategic change. Once that strategic change happened you commended the strategic changer.

Now you’re saying the team that causes the strategic changes in others is the one with the advantage and is the one to be commended.

You make no sense.


You just lack reading comp and can't accept facts

Once the Blazers had to double Jordan, the series was over

If he'd missed those threes like Lebron in 2013, then they wouldn't need to double Jordan and they could stay at home/lock down his teammates like teams do to Lebron's cast

[ShawkFactory]

You just lack reading comp and can't accept facts

Once the Blazers had to double Jordan, the series was over

If he'd missed those threes like Lebron in 2013, then they wouldn't need to double Jordan and they could stay at home/lock down his teammates like teams do to Lebron's cast

You telling someone about reading comp is akin to a 6 year old with sever ADHD telling an adult that. Stop it :lol

A) that’s not what you said

B) the series was not over. The blazers took game 2 and were tied 2-2. It was over when Jordan scores 46 in game 5, with Pippen adding like 26 of his own. Game one changed the way the Blazers played. And it worked for them

[3ba11]

You telling someone about reading comp is akin to a 6 year old with sever ADHD telling an adult that. Stop it :lol

A) that’s not what you said

B) the series was not over. The blazers took game 2 and were tied 2-2. It was over when Jordan scores 46 in game 5, with Pippen adding like 26 of his own. Game one changed the way the Blazers played. And it worked for them


It goes back and forth - so Jordan went off in Game 1 and therefore faced more attention in Game 2... then less in Game 3, more in Game 4, less in Game 5 (the critical game where he went off), less in Game 6 (teammates got off)

Again, game 1 set the tone and put the Bulls at a strategic advantage because the Blazers had to start doubling MJ.. everyone knew they couldn't overcome Curry after Game 1... I mean MJ.. MJ played 30 years ahead of his time to win that series.

[RRR3]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498071-Why-did-Kobe-go-6-22-versus-LeBron-Why-was-he-so-helpless-against-LeBeast

[3ba11]

btw, Jordan shot 40% on 4 attempts for the series, so he was shooting well all series, as he always did when he took above bailout volume.

[SouBeachTalents]

btw, Jordan shot 40% on 4 attempts for the series, so he was shooting well all series, as he always did when he took above bailout volume.
After the fluke Game 1 he shot 6/18 from 3 the rest of the series, so he was definitely not shooting well from 3 outside the aberration of a first half hot streak.

[3ba11]

After the fluke Game 1 he shot 6/18 from 3 the rest of the series, so he was definitely not shooting well from 3 outside the aberration of a first half hot streak.


game 1 set the tone and put the Bulls at a strategic advantage because the Blazers had to start doubling MJ.. everyone knew they couldn't overcome Curry after Game 1... I mean MJ.. MJ played 30 years ahead of his time to win that series, while lebron averaged 16 on 39% in the exact same situation and let teammates stave off an 0-3 deficit to carry him to series victory via miracle shot.. lebron was a NET NEGATIVE in the series (heat didn't win with him on the floor)

[ShawkFactory]

It goes back and forth .

Yes. I’m aware that a 7 game NBA finals series typically goes back and forth.

That’s not what you said. You said the series was over after game one because the blazers had to adjust.

Liar + loser = 3ball

[3ba11]

Yes. I’m aware that a 7 game NBA finals series typically goes back and forth.

That’s not what you said. You said the series was over after game one because the blazers had to adjust.

Liar + loser = 3ball


It was over after game 1 and i explained exactly why - you're just low IQ - i said from the beginning that Jordan put the Blazers behind strategically from Game 1 - if the Bulls know that the Blazers will double, then they have the edge

and it worked out each game just like i said.. they didn't double in game 1 - jordan went off... and it went back and forth each game with the Bulls anticipating more or less pressure based on how MJ did the previous game
'
you aren't used to this because lebron can't win with high scoring, so you don't experience this kind of control that a player can have over another team's strategy..

ultimately, teams meet penetrators at the rim with multiple bodies and only need to overtly double team great jumpshooters.. that's why lebron doesn't get doubled - he isn't a lethal enough scorer to make the trade off and accept a 4-on-3 off-the-ball.. ultimately, he can't win with high scoring because it's too ball-dominant (09') and too inefficient at the additional jumpshooting volume required (15')

[Chick Stern]

btw, Jordan shot 40% on 4 attempts for the series, so he was shooting well all series, as he always did when he took above bailout volume.*
*during the weakest NBA decade

[SaintzFury13]

It goes back and forth - so Jordan went off in Game 1 and therefore faced more attention in Game 2... then less in Game 3, more in Game 4, less in Game 5 (the critical game where he went off), less in Game 6 (teammates got off)

So the Blazers just decided to stop giving him less and less attention as the series went on?

Thanks again for proving you didn't watch the games.

[3ba11]

So the Blazers just decided to stop giving him less and less attention as the series went on?

Thanks again for proving you didn't watch the games.


The Blazers altered their coverage based on Jordan - he commanded double-teams by shooting great so that gave the Bulls a strategic edge,, while Lebron didn't command doubles because he bricked the open jumpers he was given

The attention paid to Jordan allowed teammates to go off, while the lack of attention paid Lebron allowed the defense to stay at home and lock teammates down - story of Lebron's career

Lebron doesn't get doubled because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or too inefficient at the higher jumpshooting volume (15')

[ShawkFactory]

It was over after game 1 and i explained exactly why - you're just low IQ - i said from the beginning that Jordan put the Blazers behind strategically from Game 1 - if the Bulls know that the Blazers will double, then they have the edge

and it worked out each game just like i said.. they didn't double in game 1 - jordan went off... and it went back and forth each game with the Bulls anticipating more or less pressure based on how MJ did the previous game
'
you aren't used to this because lebron can't win with high scoring, so you don't experience this kind of control that a player can have over another team's strategy..

ultimately, teams meet penetrators at the rim with multiple bodies and only need to overtly double team great jumpshooters.. that's why lebron doesn't get doubled - he isn't a lethal enough scorer to make the trade off and accept a 4-on-3 off-the-ball.. ultimately, he can't win with high scoring because it's too ball-dominant (09') and too inefficient at the additional jumpshooting volume required (15')

I feel like you argue against the casual fans perspective somehow not realizing that you are on an NBA forum where people are implicitly diehard basketball fans. No one who goes on any forum lacks a relatively comprehensive understanding of the topic.

These "nuances" that you describe in elementary terms are not news to anyone. You just can't keep you story straight (not necessarily in this thread but across threads; you make a lot of them..), are completely shook, and are talking to people that know a lot more about the game than you think.

So you come out looking like an idiot. And a tool.

[3ba11]

I feel like you argue against the casual fans perspective somehow not realizing that you are on an NBA forum where people are implicitly diehard basketball fans. No one who goes on any forum lacks a relatively comprehensive understanding of the topic.

These "nuances" that you describe in elementary terms are not news to anyone. You just can't keep you story straight (not necessarily in this thread but across threads; you make a lot of them..), are completely shook, and are talking to people that know a lot more about the game than you think.

So you come out looking like an idiot. And a tool.


No you've simply done what Lebron fans always do - you guys can't ever refute the thread title or OP and hate the reality it shows (lebron's inferiority), so you focus on one detail of the OP (Jordan winning the series in Game 1) and we've been arguing about that ever since instead of the actual OP.

But I was happy to engage you in your derail and still am - the Blazers didn't want to double-team Jordan so they tried leaving him open for jumpers - when that failed at a goat level, they were forced to double Jordan on-and-off the rest of the series, which gave the Bulls' strategic advantage throughout the series.. It wasn't a sudden change mid-series that occurs when defenses figure out ball-dominators, it was a strategic advantage throughout the series by knowing they could put the Blazers in spots to pick their poison with Jordan - the Bulls did this with every opponent - it's how they won games (leveraging MJ's goat scoring threat).

[AirBonner]

LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe

[Mr. Woke]

3ball is still grasping at straws lol.

The sad thing is that MJ isn't even paying him to simp for him all day on ISH :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

No you've simply done what Lebron fans always do - you guys can't ever refute the thread title or OP and hate the reality it shows (lebron's inferiority), so you focus on one detail of the OP (Jordan winning the series in Game 1) and we've been arguing about that ever since instead of the actual OP.

But I was happy to engage you in your derail and still am - the Blazers didn't want to double-team Jordan so they tried leaving him open for jumpers - when that failed at a goat level, they were forced to double Jordan on-and-off the rest of the series, which gave the Bulls' strategic advantage throughout the series.. It wasn't a sudden change mid-series that occurs when defenses figure out ball-dominators, it was a strategic advantage throughout the series by knowing they could put the Blazers in spots to pick their poison with Jordan - the Bulls did this with every opponent - it's how they won games (leveraging MJ's goat scoring threat).

Literally proving my point.

[3ba11]

3ball is still grasping at straws lol.

The sad thing is that MJ isn't even paying him to simp for him all day on ISH :roll:


The OP is stating facts that you can't refute.. The best effort was ShawkFactory, who chose to focus on whether Jordan infact won the series in Game 1 or not - basically focusing on the degree of Jordan's goatness and ignoring Lebron's vastly inferior performance in the same circumstance (being left open).

And can you blame Shawk for his fascination with the degree of Jordan's goatness? (whether he won the series in 1 game or not).... If you read the OP, it's 100% facts and stats, so he can't refute anything, only derail

[AirBonner]

LeBron is at worst top 3. You constantly posting about him proves that

[3ba11]

LeBron is at worst top 3. You constantly posting about him proves that


Players with more rings and similar stats automatically have good cases over Lebron, including MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Russell and Magic - so the ring count and comparable stats provide an automatic case to put him out of the top 5.. Once KD, Giannis and Kawhi catch up in rings, he's easily out of the top 10 because we haven't considered guys like Wilt or Bird and others

[ShawkFactory]

So after the "strategic edge" the Bulls gained in game 1, they were then forced to double Jordan? So in this pick-your-poison scenario, after Jordan went off in game 1 we'd expect Jordan to then take more of a facilitator role in game 2 as his teammates went off. As you've stated.

Why then did Jordan take more shots in game 2 and score the exact same amount of points? What did the defense do differently?

I expect no actual answer. More you spouting off stuff that just sounds good in your head and could potentially make sense in theory but with little knowledge of how things actually work.

The Blazers were an enormous 4th quarter collapse away from sending it to 7 games. It was an evenly matched series with both teams adjusting as they went along, as all finals series go. The only thing that mattered about game 1 is that it gave the Bulls the lead.

[AirBonner]

Players with more rings and similar stats automatically have good cases over Lebron, including MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Russell and Magic - so the ring count and comparable stats provide an automatic case to put him out of the top 5.. Once KD, Giannis and Kawhi catch up in rings, he's easily out of the top 10 because we haven't considered guys like Wilt or Bird and others
Many considered MJ the GOAT after two rings. Yet MJ has nothing that compares to 2016

[3ba11]

So after the "strategic edge" the Bulls gained in game 1, they were then forced to double Jordan? So in this pick-your-poison scenario, after Jordan went off in game 1 we'd expect Jordan to then take more of a facilitator role in game 2 as his teammates went off. As you've stated.

Why then did Jordan take more shots in game 2 and score the exact same amount of points? What did the defense do differently?

I expect no actual answer. More you spouting off stuff that just sounds good in your head and could potentially make sense in theory but with little knowledge of how things actually work.

The Blazers were an enormous 4th quarter collapse away from sending it to 7 games. It was an evenly matched series with both teams adjusting as they went along, as all finals series go. The only thing that mattered about game 1 is that it gave the Bulls the lead.


Jerome Kersey routinely averaged 20+ and led the Blazers in playoff scoring during the 1990 Western Playoffs as the Blazers made those Finals.

Why does this matter?.. It matters because Kersey was the Blazers 4th or 5th option, so Drexler made the Finals with a completely stacked team where he barely had to do anything.

The Blazers had all-stars Drexler, Porter, Duckworth, perennial all-star/all-defender Buck Williams, and future all-defender Cliff Robinson.. They were considered the most athletic and most talented team in the league with a better defense, athletes and scoring options than the Bulls.. Drazen Petrovic, Rod Strickland and Danny Ainge were bench-warmers.

So this idea that the Bulls and Blazers were an "even matchup" is false - it was well-known that the Blazers had more good players and were "loaded" (their most common nickname)... Better defense + more scorers + more athletes + more all-stars + more decorated cast = better cast.... There's a reason that MJ had to average 36/6/6 and it wasn't because it was an "even matchup"

[ShawkFactory]

Jerome Kersey routinely averaged 20+ and led the Blazers in playoff scoring during the 1990 Western Playoffs as the Blazers made those Finals.

Why does this matter?.. It matters because Kersey was the Blazers 4th or 5th option, so Drexler made the Finals with a completely stacked team where he barely had to do anything.

The Blazers had all-stars Drexler, Porter, Duckworth, perennial all-star/all-defender Buck Williams, and future all-defender Cliff Robinson.. They were considered the most athletic and most talented team in the league with a better defense, athletes and scoring options than the Bulls.. Drazen Petrovic, Rod Strickland and Danny Ainge were bench-warmers.

So this idea that the Bulls and Blazers were an "even matchup" is false - it was well-known that the Blazers had more good players and were "loaded" (their most common nickname)... Better defense + more scorers + more athletes + more all-stars + more decorated cast = better cast.... There's a reason that MJ had to average 36/6/6 and it wasn't because it was an "even matchup"

I said the series was even, which it was. Not that their casts were even. Relax you fvcking weirdo

But regardless, what does any of that have to do with what I said? My post was in regards to how Jordan and the Blazers approached the series after game one.

[SaintzFury13]

The Blazers altered their coverage based on Jordan - he commanded double-teams by shooting great so that gave the Bulls a strategic edge,, while Lebron didn't command doubles because he bricked the open jumpers he was given

The attention paid to Jordan allowed teammates to go off, while the lack of attention paid Lebron allowed the defense to stay at home and lock teammates down - story of Lebron's career

Lebron doesn't get doubled because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or too inefficient at the higher jumpshooting volume (15')

First off, what does LeBron have to do with this? I'm a massive Bron fan and yet you somehow talk more about him than I do.

Second, that isn't how the Blazers series played out. At all.

Third, even if it was, your logic still makes no sense. Lets say that's how they responded. That means they still managed to tie the series up 2-2 with that strategy. So why on earth would they change that? It's amazing how bad you are at this. This is what happens when you just go blindly off of stats and don't watch any of the games.

[3ba11]

So after the "strategic edge" the Bulls gained in game 1, they were then forced to double Jordan? So in this pick-your-poison scenario, after Jordan went off in game 1 we'd expect Jordan to then take more of a facilitator role in game 2 as his teammates went off. As you've stated.

Why then did Jordan take more shots in game 2 and score the exact same amount of points? What did the defense do differently?

I expect no actual answer. More you spouting off stuff that just sounds good in your head and could potentially make sense in theory but with little knowledge of how things actually work.

The Blazers were an enormous 4th quarter collapse away from sending it to 7 games. It was an evenly matched series with both teams adjusting as they went along, as all finals series go. The only thing that mattered about game 1 is that it gave the Bulls the lead.


^^^ sounds like Jordan didn't shoot too well or play as great against those doubles we talked about that were coming in Game 2 after the Game 1 performance

The blazers did collapse in Game 6 against the Bulls' bench to lose the series - pippen was part of that bench player comeback - if it wasn't for the x-man debacle in the 2nd Round that nearly derailed the repeat, I'd give Pippen credit for having 2 viable runs as a solid sidekick (91' and 92')..

Otherwise, he had the worst impact stats ever in the 93' Playoffs (BPM, WS/48, VORP, PER) and among the worst true shooting, while being horrible in every playoffs after that (94-03') - he was outscored by 2nd options in 19 of 41 series, so he wasn't a real 2nd option, especially when you consider his low PPG and worst-ever efficiency confirmed he couldn't handle the load.. low ppg + worst-ever efficiency = worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

[ShawkFactory]

^^^ sounds like Jordan didn't shoot too well or play as great against those doubles we talked about that were coming in Game 2 after the Game 1 performance

The blazers did collapse in Game 6 against the Bulls' bench to lose the series - pippen was part of that bench player comeback - if it wasn't for the x-man debacle in the 2nd Round that nearly derailed the repeat, I'd give Pippen credit for having 2 viable runs as a solid sidekick (91' and 92').. Otherwise, he had the worst impact stats ever in the 93' Playoffs (BPM, WS/48, VORP, PER) and among the worst true shooting, while being horrible in every playoffs after that (94-03') - he was outscored by 2nd options in 19 of 41 series, so he wasn't a real 2nd option, especially when you consider his low PPG and worst-ever efficiency confirmed he couldn't handle the load.. low ppg + worst-ever efficiency = worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

So you're saying that he just continued to shoot over doubles? Why then is there a strategic edge if Jordan is just going to play the exact same way regardless of what the defense does? If anything it's the opposite. I know what you're saying is bullshit and I know that that's not what happened. You said it though, not me.

[3ba11]

So you're saying that he just continued to shoot over doubles? Why then is there a strategic edge if Jordan is just going to play the exact same way regardless of what the defense does? If anything it's the opposite. I know what you're saying is bullshit and I know that that's not what happened. You said it though, not me.


I never said that Jordan was perfect or always shot well or always played great against doubles

But the existence of those doubles gave the Bulls a strategic edge - here's Jeff Van Gundy agreeing that doubling Jordan gave the Bulls' a strategic edge - he says that doubling Jordan actually made it harder for the Knicks to rebound effectively (aka strategic edge for Bulls):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s


I can provide more evidence of how double-teams put teams at a strategic disadvantage.

[pegasus]

Lebron played against Hall of Famers Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (coached by Gregg Popovich) giving the quartet their singular Finals loss amongst five title wins

Why does Jordan get any credit whatsoever for beating up on the weakest Finals teams in all of history with a stacked cast that included Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Lebron beat the toughest competition consistently, Jordan statpadded against inferior teams

Who cares who Lebron played against when he was given a 6-feet of space to shoot as if he were patient zero? He was guarded by "open space," not some Hall of Famers.

[ShawkFactory]

I never said that Jordan was perfect or always shot well or always played great against doubles

But the existence of those doubles gave the Bulls a strategic edge - here's Jeff Van Gundy agreeing that doubling Jordan gave the Bulls' a strategic edge - he says that doubling Jordan actually made it harder for the Knicks to rebound effectively (aka strategic edge for Bulls):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s


I can provide more evidence of how double-teams put teams at a strategic disadvantage.

Well if that were the case in this series, then it couldn't be possible that the Bulls had by far their best game on the offensive glass in game one then right?

[AirBonner]

Many considered MJ the GOAT after two rings. Yet MJ has nothing that compares to 2016

Brutal

[3ba11]

Well if that were the case in this series, then it couldn't be possible that the Bulls had by far their best game on the offensive glass in game one then right?


I believe Jeff Van Gundy but obviously it isn't a perfect formula - regardless, Jordan got doubled more than any non-big in history, and it clearly provides strategic advantages for the Bulls like having edges on the glass and having 4-on-3 advantage off-the-ball (pass out of double-team) - Jordan is really the only perimeter player aside from maybe Kobe that was doubled teamed at all or on any kind of consistent basis.

again, penetrators are met at the rim with multiple defenders, so only elite jumpshooters require double-teaming - that's why Lebron doesn't get doubled - he simply isn't lethal enough offensively (he doesn't "get hot" and galvanize the whole team/change momentum/blow game open), so it isn't worth double-teaming him and taking on those risks (rebounding issues and 4-on-3's off-the-ball)..

in addition to lacking the hot jumpshooting that requires double-teams, Lebron simply can't win with high scoring in general because his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') and too inefficient with the extra jumpshooting volume (15')... Ultimately, Westbrooking skillsets like Lebron's are just inferior offense that doesn't command doubles.

[Axe]

Op is a fraud

[outofstomach]

Lebron played against Hall of Famers Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (coached by Gregg Popovich) giving the quartet their singular Finals loss amongst five title wins

Why does Jordan get any credit whatsoever for beating up on the weakest Finals teams in all of history with a stacked cast that included Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Lebron beat the toughest competition consistently, Jordan statpadded against inferior teams
now if i were to tell you to find a chair and a rope, would i get banned?

[expansionera]

now if i were to tell you to find a chair and a rope, would i get banned?

I couldn’t imagine being this emotional because my childhood sports hero got surpassed

[outofstomach]

I couldn’t imagine being this emotional because my childhood sports hero got surpassed

it’s not even about “surpassing” it’s about you being disingenuous and trolling

[NBAGOAT]

it’s not even about “surpassing” it’s about you being disingenuous and trolling

Op isn’t good but 3ball is twice as bad for now lol

[Axe]

I couldn’t imagine being this emotional because my childhood sports hero got surpassed
Another day, another meaningless life with this dup.