Pippen vs Luka

[3ba11]

Who cares about defense because you can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive players to surround him.

So an offense can't be elite (no 2-way team) with Pippen as the best scorer, while Luka can have a 2-way team.

Also, Pippen was a 5 assist guy and mid-tier playmaker, so Jordan never got to benefit from elite 10-15 assist playmakers like Luka, Harden, Stockton, or Payton (who are all more decorated than Pippen despite not having the bias of a high ring count, aka their performance/stats can stand on it's own)

[StrongLurk]

Pip EZ

[AirBonner]

So you comparing Pippen to number one options now? :biggums::coleman::yaohappy::kobe:

[FultzNationRISE]

It’s an interesting comparison, because both guys started their playoff careers better than 1-9.

I think it’s too early to make a call. Gotta give Luka a few more years before comparing him to the guy who led the premiere sports dynasty of the 90s.

[3ba11]

Pip EZ


You should include a short blurb as to why.. simply saying defense isn't enough because Pippen can't have an elite offense (no 2-way team) as the team's best scorer, while Luka can.. You can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen requires expensive offensive teammates (pippen is a "pippen" that needs a Luka/MJ/Kukoc to carry him)

[Carbine]

I'd take Pippen until Luka shows more off ball dominance.

He dominates the ball more than anyone. It's not my cup of tea. Luka will get there, I would imagine but that's an assumption. I already know Pippen can have a big impact on the game without pounding the rock into the ground for 20 seconds every possession.

[3ba11]

It’s an interesting comparison, because both guys started their playoff careers better than 1-9.

I think it’s too early to make a call. Gotta give Luka a few more years before comparing him to the guy who led the premiere sports dynasty of the 90s.


The Bulls' cast had zero rim protection and the least athletic guards in the league during the 1st three-peat... outside of MJ/Pippen, the Bulls were very unathletic.

Blazers were the most athletic team, then the Sonics with peak dunk contenders Kemp and McKey (all-defender), and Payton/McMillan (goat defenders).

Then the Sun's had Dumas, Barkley, Chambers, West, KJ and dunk champ Ceballos. Maybe they were the most athletic

[Phoenix]

Isn't Luka in the same ball dominant mold that OP criticizes Lebron/Harden/ Westbrook for? Oh the topic is Pippen, never mind.

The triangle also supresses individual state numbers. As an MJ stan I would figure OP would know that MJ himself was getting 4-6 assists in the triangle.

[3ba11]

Isn't Luka in the same ball dominant mold that OP criticizes Lebron/Harden/ Westbrook for? Oh the topic is Pippen, never mind.

The triangle also supresses individual state numbers. As an MJ stan I would figure OP would know that MJ himself was getting 4-6 assists in the triangle.


MJ had the goat scoring burden (doubled Pippen's scoring average) yet still averaged more assists then Pippen and FAR more assist percentage - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage).

Btw, Pippen's ppg was nothing outside the triangle (89' and 99'), while his assists increased alongside the goat off-ball assist target (MJ), and decreased without him




Isn't Luka in the same ball dominant mold that OP criticizes Lebron/Harden/ Westbrook for? Oh the topic is Pippen, never mind.

The triangle also supresses individual state numbers. As an MJ stan I would figure OP would know that MJ himself was getting 4-6 assists in the triangle.

Didn't Luka just have the #1 team offense of all-time, while Pippen had the #14 offense in 94'?

Isn't Luka a top tier playmaker (10 apg), while Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker (5 apg)?

Here's Mark Jackson saying Luka should be top 75 and Pippen shouldn't be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ex74C2gEEos&t=01m03s




Isn't Luka in the same ball dominant mold that OP criticizes Lebron/Harden/ Westbrook for? Oh the topic is Pippen, never mind.

The triangle also supresses individual state numbers. As an MJ stan I would figure OP would know that MJ himself was getting 4-6 assists in the triangle.


you can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive players to surround him.

So an offense can't be elite (no 2-way team) with Pippen as the best scorer, while Luka can have a 2-way team.

Also, Pippen was a 5 assist guy and mid-tier playmaker, so Jordan never got to benefit from elite 10-15 assist playmakers like Luka, Harden, Stockton, or Payton (who are all more decorated than Pippen despite not having the bias of a high ring count, aka their performance/stats can stand on it's own)

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pippen got out of the 1st round and his defense rating is usually like 25x better

[Lebron23]

Give me Scottie Pippen. He won a playoffs series and arguably the best defensive wing man in the 1990's

[SouBeachTalents]

Definitely Pippen

[GrayGoat]

No Pippen no chip’n

[3ba11]

Pippen got out of the 1st round and his defense rating is usually like 25x better


Bird's drtg is better than Pippen's because it's a defensive rebound counter

Stockton rates higher in BPM because it's a steals counter

Dumars or Bowen were a better defender than all of them but rate low in all steals-counter stats

The makers of drtg say it isn't reliable and only ortg and obpm are viable

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:
:roll:

What a thread backfire

[GrayGoat]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:
Intriguing

[Phoenix]

MJ had the goat scoring burden (doubled Pippen's scoring average) yet still averaged more assists then Pippen and FAR more assist percentage - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage).

Btw, Pippen's ppg was nothing outside the triangle (89' and 99'), while his assists increased alongside the goat off-ball assist target (MJ), and decreased without him





Didn't Luka just have the #1 team offense of all-time, while Pippen had the #14 offense in 94'?

Isn't Luka a top tier playmaker (10 apg), while Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker (5 apg)?

Here's Mark Jackson saying Luka should be top 75 and Pippen shouldn't be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ex74C2gEEos&t=01m03s






you can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive players to surround him.

So an offense can't be elite (no 2-way team) with Pippen as the best scorer, while Luka can have a 2-way team.

Also, Pippen was a 5 assist guy and mid-tier playmaker, so Jordan never got to benefit from elite 10-15 assist playmakers like Luka, Harden, Stockton, or Payton (who are all more decorated than Pippen despite not having the bias of a high ring count, aka their performance/stats can stand on it's own)

One, I'm not disputing Luka's playmaking. I just find it odd that you are complimentary of it because it employs the same ball-dominant tendencies you decry 50 times a day with Lebron.

Two, Pippen's per 36 assists between 99 and 02 was 5.5. His assists on the Bulls between 91 and 98 playing 38mpg was 5.7, virtually identical regardless of playing in the triangle or not, or Jordan being on the court with him.

Third, Scottie averaged 5.6 assists in 94, his lone full year without MJ. From 96-98, Scottie averaged 5.8 assists. From 89-93, Pippen's first year as a starter to MJ's first retirement, Pippen averaged 5.7 assists. So, the 'goat assist' target MJ contributed a maximum of .2 assists to what Pippen was able to average with Pete Myers in the lineup.

[8Ball]

Give me Pippen Ball that led to 6 rings.

[8Ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:

1-9

[8Ball]

MJ had the goat scoring burden (doubled Pippen's scoring average) yet still averaged more assists then Pippen and FAR more assist percentage - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage).

Btw, Pippen's ppg was nothing outside the triangle (89' and 99'), while his assists increased alongside the goat off-ball assist target (MJ), and decreased without him





Didn't Luka just have the #1 team offense of all-time, while Pippen had the #14 offense in 94'?

Isn't Luka a top tier playmaker (10 apg), while Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker (5 apg)?

Here's Mark Jackson saying Luka should be top 75 and Pippen shouldn't be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ex74C2gEEos&t=01m03s






you can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive players to surround him.

So an offense can't be elite (no 2-way team) with Pippen as the best scorer, while Luka can have a 2-way team.

Also, Pippen was a 5 assist guy and mid-tier playmaker, so Jordan never got to benefit from elite 10-15 assist playmakers like Luka, Harden, Stockton, or Payton (who are all more decorated than Pippen despite not having the bias of a high ring count, aka their performance/stats can stand on it's own)

1-9

No answer for this 30 years later.

[GrayGoat]

What is MJ’s accomplishments without Pippen? Anyone?

[3ba11]

What is MJ’s accomplishments without Pippen? Anyone?


He only played without Pippen as a rookie and sophomore, when no one wins any playoff series (Lebron, Durant, Luka, Giannis, Curry)

So you guys are weaponizing a coincidence - Pippen is literally one of the lowest-producing sidekicks that ever won, so you're weaponizing the coincidence that he's the low-producing bum that got to coattail MJ

[GrayGoat]

He only played without Pippen as a rookie and sophomore, when no one wins any playoff series (Lebron, Durant, Luka, Giannis, Curry)

So you guys are weaponizing a coincidence - Pippen is literally one of the lowest-producing sidekicks that ever won, so you're weaponizing the coincidence that he's the low-producing bum that got to coattail MJ

Why did Pippen out-produce all 90’s second options? Weak era?

[8Ball]

Why did Pippen out-produce all 90’s second options? Weak era?

Pippen outproduced most 1st options as well.

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-31-2015/B2bJwt.gif

[3ba11]

Pippen outproduced most 1st options as well.


He literally outscored #1 options in less than 1/3 of his series during title runs, which is the worst of any winning sidekick during title runs... Ever

And he outscored #2 options 75% of the time, which matches lower tier sidekicks like Klay or Pau, but falls far short of the top tier that usually dominate opposing 1st options or win FMVP (Kobe, curry, kareem, etc)

[8Ball]

Poll has gone from 1-9 to 1-11.

Another thread fail.

[SouBeachTalents]

Poll has gone from 1-9 to 1-11.

Another thread fail.
And the only vote was by him :lol

[3ba11]

Why did Pippen out-produce all 90’s second options? Weak era?


Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in literally half the series of his career that he wasn't a 1st option (19 of 41).. He also had low scoring capability/peak PPG and the worst efficiency ever for a winning sidekick - his low ppg and worst-ever efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won

And his rate of outscoring #2's during title runs matches lower tier sidekicks like Klay or Pau, but falls far short of top tier sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options with dominant stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, etc)

Rings won with true 2nd options that never achieve elite 1st option stats or FMVP is rare, yet Jordan has 6 chips like this

[Full Court]

I don't know man, I can't go along with the "who cares about defense." I value defense very highly.

I did vote for Luka though, although it's close. Luka is obviously waaay better offensively, but Pippen smokes him in other areas. Voted for Luka though, because I don't think Pippen was ever capable of leading a team like Luka is. That said, Pippen and Jordan were a better duo than Luka and Jordan would have been.

[3ba11]

I don't know man, I can't go along with the "who cares about defense." I value defense very highly.

I did vote for Luka though, although it's close. Luka is obviously waaay better offensively, but Pippen smokes him in other areas. Voted for Luka though, because I don't think Pippen was ever capable of leading a team like Luka is. That said, Pippen and Jordan were a better duo than Luka and Jordan would have been.


What "other areas" does Pippen smoke Luka in?

You guys are making shit up about Pippen - he was a 5-assist mid-tier playmaker and sub-par scorer that was a horrible leader and historic choker.. he had the migraine that cost the bulls the 90' title... Then he sat out in 1994 and lost a 17 point lead in 4th in 2000.. the guy was one of the lowest producers ever and a disaster

Yet you guys prop up his shit stats and 2nd tier performance... WHY???? is it the 6 rings??? Is that it? Your brain is addicted to thinking that anyone with 6 rings is great?.. the stats prove that all 6 of MJ's rings were greater carry-jobs than Dirk's 11' ring and Terry out-produced most of Pippen's title runs.. he has 2 Finals at 15.7 PPG and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... Who else gets away with that?

And scoring matters because that's what determines if you're 2nd option, otherwise you're a defensive role player like Pippen... Anyone that won 3 Finals had a teammate win FMVP or average 25 for at least one of the Finals.. yet MJ went 6 Finals getting nothing from Pippen

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Bird's drtg is better than Pippen's because it's a defensive rebound counter

Stockton rates higher in BPM because it's a steals counter

Dumars or Bowen were a better defender than all of them but rate low in all steals-counter stats

The makers of drtg say it isn't reliable and only ortg and obpm are viable

defensive rebounds? luka gets 10-12 rebounds per 100 possessions (destroys pippen) and still came out with a 119 defensive rating in playoffs

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:

:roll:

[bobopenguin]

pip, just cos he's black.
i am just trying to be socially correct here in ISH.

[000]

1994 pippen scoring vs 2021 luka scoring:

#8 in ppg vs #6 in ppg
#66 in Ts% vs #80 in Ts%

Assists are a meaningless team stat, so they dont matter

[Axe]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:
:milton

[SaintzFury13]

What "other areas" does Pippen smoke Luka in?

You guys are making shit up about Pippen - he was a 5-assist mid-tier playmaker and sub-par scorer that was a horrible leader and historic choker.. he had the migraine that cost the bulls the 90' title... Then he sat out in 1994 and lost a 17 point lead in 4th in 2000.. the guy was one of the lowest producers ever and a disaster

Yet you guys prop up his shit stats and 2nd tier performance... WHY???? is it the 6 rings??? Is that it? Your brain is addicted to thinking that anyone with 6 rings is great?.. the stats prove that all 6 of MJ's rings were greater carry-jobs than Dirk's 11' ring and Terry out-produced most of Pippen's title runs.. he has 2 Finals at 15.7 PPG and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... Who else gets away with that?

And scoring matters because that's what determines if you're 2nd option, otherwise you're a defensive role player like Pippen... Anyone that won 3 Finals had a teammate win FMVP or average 25 for at least one of the Finals.. yet MJ went 6 Finals getting nothing from Pippen

If by nothing you mean doing literally everything else at a higher level than MJ himself, then yes, he got nothing out of Pippen.

Again, imagine being this stupid.

[90sgoat]

Anyone who voted Pippen come at me.

[ELITEpower23]

https://i.postimg.cc/7PWXMxgL/1-9-lives-on-forever.png

1-9 lives on forever :roll::roll:

:oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Who cares about defense because you can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive players to surround him.

So an offense can't be elite (no 2-way team) with Pippen as the best scorer, while Luka can have a 2-way team.

Also, Pippen was a 5 assist guy and mid-tier playmaker, so Jordan never got to benefit from elite 10-15 assist playmakers like Luka, Harden, Stockton, or Payton (who are all more decorated than Pippen despite not having the bias of a high ring count, aka their performance/stats can stand on it's own)

Just depends on the team and system. A team that uses alot of on and off ball movement offensively and has a defensive identity would be better off with pip. A ball dominant system would do way better with luka.

[Airupthere]

If you want a list of bronsexuals, just look at those that voted for pippen. Lol

[Phoenix]

If you want a list of bronsexuals, just look at those that voted for pippen. Lol

Or, maybe just giving the finger to 3ball. I couldn't give a single fukk about Lebron.

[Im so nba'd out]

That backfire doe

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/58/fa/4158faf902c5d4434aa026fca375cbc0.gif

this thread did no go how OP planned

[j3lademaster]

Luka is going to be a bigger James Harden who can perform in the playoffs.

Harden is also a guy with average athleticism but very strong, skilled and crafty. Played a lot of iso, so there was a perception that he couldn’t co-exist with other stars. Luka is a guy who can very well get into the top 10 all time. This thread actually had good potential if we just focused on Luka instead of making it another Pippen agenda.

[3ba11]

Or, maybe just giving the finger to 3ball. I couldn't give a single fukk about Lebron.


So you concede that I'm right about everything and only defy me to be a dick... Got it

No one in this thread would take Pippen (#14 team offense among 94' teams) over Luka (#1 offense all-time

Luka can have a top 5 offense and defense (2-way team), while Pippen can't, so why would anyone go with Pippen?... :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

So you concede that I'm right about everything and only defy me to be a dick... Got it



Nope, nothing has been conceded. But it's humorous that you put so much stock into polling a group of posters that are going to do exactly the opposite of the result you want.....just because it's you. It hurts you, and I find that immensely entertaining.


That backfire doe

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/58/fa/4158faf902c5d4434aa026fca375cbc0.gif

this thread did no go how OP planned

Case in point. Where does it hurt 3nut?

[ShawkFactory]

Luka is on track to be legit one of the best players ever. So him.

[DoctorP]

Luka all day every day.

[Axe]

Imagine being jizzragged in your own thread. Yikes.

[3ba11]

Imagine being jizzragged in your own thread. Yikes.


Did you read the last 2 posts before yours?.. Actual sanity itt

Here's a sanity check for you to see if you're capable of conceding the historical record:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498052-Sanity-Check

[Axe]

Did you read the last 2 posts before yours?.. Actual sanity itt

Here's a sanity check for you to see if you're capable of conceding the historical record:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498052-Sanity-Check
You're seriously suffering from a mental illness called kds and pds. Give it up already.

[3ba11]

You're seriously suffering from a mental illness called kds and pds. Give it up already.


You're suffering from a mental illness called "give a f*ck"

[SaintzFury13]

What "other areas" does Pippen smoke Luka in?

You guys are making shit up about Pippen - he was a 5-assist mid-tier playmaker and sub-par scorer that was a horrible leader and historic choker.. he had the migraine that cost the bulls the 90' title...

Okay, hold up. Because I just now noticed this point and I can't help but laugh at it.

This entire time, you have done everything you possibly could to downplay Pippen's contributions to the Bulls team. Hell, you've gone on record many times to state that Pippen's 94 run, where he was third in MVP voting that season, was due to "being part of a winning system" (which is absolute nonsense btw). But now here, in what was Pippen's first all star season, you're putting the blame on the Bulls losing on him?

So when the Bulls win, Pippen has nothing to do with it. But when they lose, it's all his fault. It's the same crap you've ran with regarding LeBron, despite what happened on the court not supporting anything you say.

But the funny thing is, yeah, Pippen's migraine did in fact cost the Bulls in 1990. You wanna know why? Because whether you want to admit it or not, Pippen was an integral part of that Bulls team and they were never going to win without him. And this is why people put so much stock into those 6 rings that Pippen has, because without him, Michael Jordan isn't the GOAT. He doesn't have his two three peats.

And what's even more interesting is how much that hurts your argument in regards to LeBron. LeBron had Irving for only half a series where he beat a 60 win team to advance to the Finals (while also missing Kevin Love for the entire series). In 2018, Irving's gone and LeBron still manages to make it back to the finals without him. Jordan isn't doing any of that without Pippen, because he couldn't.

Does it hurt you knowing just how badly Michael needed Scottie? Does it hurt you to realize that for all the shit talk you do about him, it will never matter because Scottie Pippen had just as much of a part in the Bulls winning 6 titles in the 90s as Jordan did?

[3ba11]

Okay, hold up. Because I just now noticed this point and I can't help but laugh at it.

This entire time, you have done everything you possibly could to downplay Pippen's contributions to the Bulls team. Hell, you've gone on record many times to state that Pippen's 94 run, where he was third in MVP voting that season, was due to "being part of a winning system" (which is absolute nonsense btw). But now here, in what was Pippen's first all star season, you're putting the blame on the Bulls losing on him?

So when the Bulls win, Pippen has nothing to do with it. But when they lose, it's all his fault. It's the same crap you've ran with regarding LeBron, despite what happened on the court not supporting anything you say.

But the funny thing is, yeah, Pippen's migraine did in fact cost the Bulls in 1990. You wanna know why? Because whether you want to admit it or not, Pippen was an integral part of that Bulls team and they were never going to win without him. And this is why people put so much stock into those 6 rings that Pippen has, because without him, Michael Jordan isn't the GOAT. He doesn't have his two three peats.

And what's even more interesting is how much that hurts your argument in regards to LeBron. LeBron had Irving for only half a series where he beat a 60 win team to advance to the Finals (while also missing Kevin Love for the entire series). In 2018, Irving's gone and LeBron still manages to make it back to the finals without him. Jordan isn't doing any of that without Pippen, because he couldn't.

Does it hurt you knowing just how badly Michael needed Scottie? Does it hurt you to realize that for all the shit talk you do about him, it will never matter because Scottie Pippen had just as much of a part in the Bulls winning 6 titles in the 90s as Jordan did?


No team can win with no help

MJ was going to have a 2nd option and it just happened to be Pippen - you guys simply weaponize this coincidence to inflate Pippen, even though his worst-ever scoring for a winning sidekick (low ppg and worst-ever efficiency) confirms that he was just a low-producing bum that was lucky to land alongside MJ

And again - anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it because MJ never had a bad series.. Jordan never played poorly or shot poorly in a series loss, whereas other guys like Lebron or Kobe wet the bed and shot less than 40% in numerous series lossses...

So go back and look at the 96' Finals or 98' ECF, where the Bulls went 6 and 7 games only because Pippen wet the bed.. This was the case in MANY series like the X-man debacle in the 92' ECSF or the 90' ECF migraine debacle - anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's fault

[Axe]

You're suffering from a mental illness called "give a f*ck"
Learn how to get a life, you buffoon. You don't even realize you're doing this shit all day.

[3ba11]

Learn how to get a life, you buffoon. You don't even realize you're doing this shit all day.


You don't know me - you're the bum with no mind of your own

[Axe]

You don't know me - you're the bum with no mind of your own
You are the psychopath with kds who once told the community that you used to dunk on 6'9 zach randolph even when the said story is laughable.

[3ba11]

You are the psychopath with kds who once told the community that you used to dunk on 6'9 zach randolph even when the said story is laughable.


it's a true story - 4 times in a row in a game of 1-on-1

1-on-1 is make-it-take-it you know.

[Axe]

it's a true story - 4 times in a row in a game of 1-on-1

1-on-1 is make-it-take-it you know.
Then stop making daily agenda threads about kong and pippen, you jackass. It ain't helping your case at all.

[SaintzFury13]

No team can win with no help

MJ was going to have a 2nd option and it just happened to be Pippen - you guys simply weaponize this coincidence to inflate Pippen, even though his worst-ever scoring for a winning sidekick (low ppg and worst-ever efficiency) confirms that he was just a low-producing bum that was lucky to land alongside MJ

No we don't.

No one out here is claiming Pippen is an elite second option (even though he's far better in that department than you give him credit for). His greatest strength as Jordan's sidekick has always been the fact that he could run the offense at an elite level and was one of the best defensive players in the league. He did all the dirty work so Jordan didn't have to. That's about as perfect of a teammate as you could ask for. You choosing to focus on his scoring not only demonstrates your lack of knowledge about both Jordan, Pippen and the Bulls in general, but it demonstrates your lack of knowledge regarding the sport of basketball.


And again - anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it because MJ never had a bad series.. Jordan never played poorly or shot poorly in a series loss, whereas other guys like Lebron or Kobe wet the bed and shot less than 40% in numerous series lossses...

So you're just gonna pretend the 85 and 87 playoffs never happened? Where Jordan shot poorly in both series and lost?


So go back and look at the 96' Finals or 98' ECF, where the Bulls went 6 and 7 games only because Pippen wet the bed.. This was the case in MANY series like the X-man debacle in the 92' ECSF or the 90' ECF migraine debacle - anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's fault

How about you go back and look at what happened in 96? Because we all know you didn't watch that finals series, or any of the games involving Jordan and Pippen for that matter. If you did, you would have been smart enough to know that citing the 96 Finals as an example is idiotic beyond comprehension.

First off this is where relying entirely on stats hurts your argument. If you had known any better, you'd realize that what really helped Seattle take two games in that series was Payton guarding Jordan and giving him three really poor games to close out the series. In fact, Pippen actually had a far better shooting night than Jordan did in the close out game of that series. If it wasn't for the contributions of both Pippen and Rodman (who earned FMVP votes in that series), the series probably would have went to seven games and the Sonics pulling off a 3-0 comeback would have been a very realistic possibility. Why? Well it probably had something to do with Jordan shooting 26% from the field to go along with 5 turnovers. In other words, he got bailed out by his teammates.

Remember that 2007 Finals series you love to bring up so much? The one where LeBron shot 35% from the field and the Cavaliers got swept? This is very easily Jordan's fate if he doesn't have the teammates that he did and if Payton had defended him all series long. So again, stop referencing things that you clearly lack an understanding of. If you were smart you would stay as far away from the 96 finals as possible because it's one of the few black marks on Jordan's career.

[97 bulls]

No we don't.

No one out here is claiming Pippen is an elite second option (even though he's far better in that department than you give him credit for). His greatest strength as Jordan's sidekick has always been the fact that he could run the offense at an elite level and was one of the best defensive players in the league. He did all the dirty work so Jordan didn't have to. That's about as perfect of a teammate as you could ask for. You choosing to focus on his scoring not only demonstrates your lack of knowledge about both Jordan, Pippen and the Bulls in general, but it demonstrates your lack of knowledge regarding the sport of basketball.



So you're just gonna pretend the 85 and 87 playoffs never happened? Where Jordan shot poorly in both series and lost?



How about you go back and look at what happened in 96? Because we all know you didn't watch that finals series, or any of the games involving Jordan and Pippen for that matter. If you did, you would have been smart enough to know that citing the 96 Finals as an example is idiotic beyond comprehension.

First off this is where relying entirely on stats hurts your argument. If you had known any better, you'd realize that what really helped Seattle take two games in that series was Payton guarding Jordan and giving him three really poor games to close out the series. In fact, Pippen actually had a far better shooting night than Jordan did in the close out game of that series. If it wasn't for the contributions of both Pippen and Rodman (who earned FMVP votes in that series), the series probably would have went to seven games and the Sonics pulling off a 3-0 comeback would have been a very realistic possibility. Why? Well it probably had something to do with Jordan shooting 26% from the field to go along with 5 turnovers. In other words, he got bailed out by his teammates.

Remember that 2007 Finals series you love to bring up so much? The one where LeBron shot 35% from the field and the Cavaliers got swept? This is very easily Jordan's fate if he doesn't have the teammates that he did and if Payton had defended him all series long. So again, stop referencing things that you clearly lack an understanding of. If you were smart you would stay as far away from the 96 finals as possible because it's one of the few black marks on Jordan's career.

Great post.

[AussieSteve]

Different era. Different style of play. Different statistical outcome.

Luka is a top ~5 player today. Pippen was also a top ~5 player in his time.

Relative to their respective eras, they are about equal.

[3ba11]

.

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

[3ba11]

Remember that 2007 series that you bring up so much





It wasn't just the 2007 series:



Worst Series of Career

Lebron.... 18 on 48% (11' Finals)
Lebron.... 22 on 36% (07' Finals)
Lebron.... 26 on 35% (08' ECSF)

Jordan.... 27 on 42% (96' Finals)


So it wasn't just 1 series and Lebron's worst series was far worse than Jordan's - infact, Jordan's worst is Lebron's career average (27 ppg).






So you're just gonna pretend the 85 and 87 playoffs never happened? Where Jordan shot poorly in both series and lost?





Jordan never shot under 40% in a loss, while Lebron did many times...

42% isn't necessarily bad, while 35% is among the worst-ever for a 1st option in a playoff series... Infact, no 1st option ever shot 35% twice in a playoff series - only Lebron.






Pippen could run the offense at an elite level and was one of the best defensive players in the league. He did all the dirty work so Jordan didn't have to..





Saying Jordan didn't do dirty work is either the worst troll ever or you have the least knowledge ever.

MJ got more DPOY votes every year and was considered the better defender by everyone (see previous post), while averaging more steals and blocks?.. So MJ played all the defense and did all the dirty work.

MJ also averaged more assists, assist percentage, usage and twice the points, so he ran the offense.

Do you realize that Jordan guarded Payton as the primary defender for Games 3 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and 5 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg)?.. So you're literally lying - making shit up because you HAVE TO (it's hard to support a fraud).






You choosing to focus on his scoring





Scoring is what determines if a player is a 2nd option - without adequate scoring, the player is just a defensive role player.

and Pippen's stats during the 2nd three-peat (especially the 96' Finals) showed that he wasn't a legit 2nd option - Jordan 3-peated with a defensive role player from 96-98'.

Ultimately, Pippen's low scoring for a winning sidekick and worst-ever efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick ever (that won chips)... Infact, Pippen was outscored by opposing 2nd options in half the series of his career, so he wasn't a real 2nd option, while his low PPG and worst-ever efficiency proved that he couldn't handle the load.






Jordan shooting 26% from the field to go along with 5 turnovers. In other words, he got bailed out by his teammates.






Last 3 games of 96' Finals:


Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996#137-139-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs).... 23.7 on 36.7%
Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01/gamelog/1996#136-138-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs).... 13.3 on 29.6%


The numbers speak for themselves.

Btw, in the closeout game, the Bulls won by 12 - this matters because Jordan held his matchup to 12 points below their normal averages (hawkins), while everyone else let their man go off (payton, kemp, schrempf) - so Jordan led the Bulls in defense, scoring and assists in the closeout game.. :confusedshrug:






This is very easily Jordan's fate if he doesn't have the teammates that he did





What teammates? Jordan's sidekick was literally worst-ever with 15 on 34% (not a threat), so Jordan faced the most attention ever - literally - the youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding Jordan in Game 4, and it shows that Jordan was double-teamed 10 of 20 times that he caught the ball with Payton guarding him..

Here's the link to the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk), or you can just see all 10 double-teams in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161)...

Obviously, if Jordan had teammates that could muster more than 15 on 34%, then he wouldn't face so much defensive attention.. Kenny Smith says it best - everyone played with a teammate that got double-teamed except Jordan, so he was the only 1-man show in history (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s)).







https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2015/S-0uOq.gif


The 96' Finals is one of the few black marks on Jordan's career.





Jordan got a 3-0 lead by averaging 31 on 46%, which isn't a black mark - who cares what happened in garbage time after the series was 3-0?.. Jordan literally said this:



"this is the most relaxed that I've ever been in the Finals.. I guess a 3-0 lead makes you a little more relaxed....."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=42m32s


So Jordan was planning his vacation while Payton was frothing at the mouth to save face - it was garbage time and that's why Payton had some marginal success, along with the refs helping him - that wouldn't occur in Game 1 when both Jordan and Payton are equally desperate and the refs call it even-steven.






if Payton had defended him all series long





Jordan was 9-18 with 26 points in Game 5, so Payton only had great defense for 2 games - this matters because Starks guarded Jordan far better for the first few games of the 1993 ECF, where Jordan shot 32% thru 3 games and 28% for games 1 and 3 (where Starks completely locked down MJ)..

So Jordan didn't figure out Starks until Game 4 - he realized that he could just shoot over Starks and had 54 points on all jumpers.. Jordan would figure out Payton the same way, assuming he doesn't just go off in Game 1 due to equal mentalities/desperation and equal referreeing - the idea that Payton always holds Jordan to low stats shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.. Literally, you're thinking something that's really dumb.

[RRR3]

Snivelly can’t stop lying. It pathological. No point in engaging with someone who refuses to tell the truth.

[3ba11]

Snivelly can’t stop lying. It pathological. No point in engaging with someone who refuses to tell the truth.


Where's the lie...

of stfu and vacate the thread

[RRR3]

Where's the lie...

of stfu and vacate the thread
“LeBron shot the worst ever of anyone first option”

No he didn’t I proved this wrong to you already lmao. And he shot 36% stop rounding down.

[3ba11]

“LeBron shot the worst ever of anyone first option”

No he didn’t I proved this wrong to you already lmao. And he shot 36% stop rounding down.


Lebron is the only guy to shoot 35% twice in a series - that's the worst of anyone ever

And who shot worse than Lebron's 35-36% in the 07' Finals or 08' 2nd Round?

[RRR3]

Lebron is the only guy to shoot 35% twice in a series - that's the worst of anyone ever

Who shot worse than Lebron's 35-36% in the 07' Finals or 08' 2nd Round?
Rounding down again, 3bot! And…No he isn’t I already told you Vince Carter and Paul Pierce did it lmao. Stop lying you’ve been told this before. And that was just a quick search by me of two high volume scorers. I’m sure there’s more. Positive in fact. Snivelly.

[3ba11]

Rounding down again, 3bot! And…No he isn’t I already told you Vince Carter and Paul Pierce did it lmao. Stop lying you’ve been told this before.


Only Lebron shot 35% in a playoff series twice - that's the worst-ever for a 1st option - so you're a liar for saying my point wasn't valid when it was - no one ever shot worse than 35% in 2 different series

[RRR3]

Only Lebron shot 35% in a playoff series twice - that's the worst-ever for a 1st option - so you're a liar for saying my point wasn't valid when it was - no one ever shot worse than 35% in 2 different series
I literally just told you otherwise you lying ****ing robot.

Paul Pierce shot 34.2% in the 2004 first round and 34.5 in the 2010 second round. You can literally verify this on his page under the “playoffs series” section: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html


Vince Carter: 30.0% first round 2000 and 35.4% in second round 2007: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html

Both of them were first options.


Why can’t you stop lying? Are you a robot? Gonna spam the same post again cuz I stumped you?

[3ba11]

I literally just told you otherwise you lying ****ing robot.

Paul Pierce shot 34.2% in the 2004 first round and 34.5 in the 2010 second round. You can literally verify this on his page under the “playoffs series” section: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html


Vince Carter: 30.0% first round 2000 and 35.4% in second round 2007: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html

Both of them were first options.


Why can’t you stop lying? Are you a robot? Gonna spam the same post again cuz I stumped you?


You're a liar - Rajon Rondo was the leading scorer in the 2010 ECSF - he averaged 6 more points than Pierce

So you lied (copy pasta incoming)....

Only Lebron shot 35% in a playoff series twice - that's the worst-ever for a 1st option - so you're a liar for saying my point wasn't valid when it was - no one ever shot worse than 35% in 2 different series

[RRR3]

You're a liar - Rajon Rondo was the leading scorer in the 2010 ECSF - he averaged 6 more points than Pierce

So you lied (copy pasta incoming)....

Only Lebron shot 35% in a playoff series twice - that's the worst-ever for a 1st option - so you're a liar for saying my point wasn't valid when it was - no one ever shot worse than 35% in 2 different series
Rajon Rondo was the first option on the 2010 Celtics? Are you insane? You didn’t say “leading scorer” you said first option. It’s not my fault Pierce bricked too much to be the leading scorer.

And of course you desperately dodged the Vince Carter stats. Why nothing to say about that, Snivelly? Gonna cry and post another bot comment? Bleep bloop you’re malfunctioning!

[RRR3]

Will Snivelly address the Vince Carter stats or will he malfunction again?

[SaintzFury13]

Oh boy, a 3ball post where he actually tries. Can't wait to make this backfire on him.


It wasn't just the 2007 series:



Worst Series of Career

Lebron.... 18 on 48% (11' Finals)
Lebron.... 22 on 36% (07' Finals)
Lebron.... 26 on 35% (08' ECSF)

Jordan.... 27 on 42% (96' Finals)


So it wasn't just 1 series and Lebron's worst series was far worse than Jordan's - infact, Jordan's worst is Lebron's career average (27 ppg).

Congrats, you completely missed my point. I never once stated LeBron was superior to Jordan, so I don't know why you're bringing this up.


Jordan never shot under 40% in a loss, while Lebron did many times...

42% isn't necessarily bad, while 35% is the worst-ever for a 1st option in a playoff series... Since 35% is a record (no one ever played worse), it's definitely a reason for loss.

First off, 42% is bad. If you are taking shots at the volume Jordan is, that is a detriment to you and your team. And the same logic applies to LeBron.

Second, I've already explained why your logic in regards to the 2008 playoffs doesn't work. There were two games where LeBron scored at a high rate on decent efficiency and his team wet the bed. Therefor, not his fault. Same with 07. LeBron was the Spurs main focus on offense. It's idiotic to blame LeBron when he was not only the only consistent offensive option they had, but no one else was capable of stepping up to help lead the scoring in his place. Therefor, not his fault.

That leaves us with 2011, and guess what? LeBron in that series actually had very good efficiency. 48% across the board? That's not bad at all. And yet it's considered his worst playoff series of all time. But how could that be? His efficiency was really good. Because context and understanding what happened in those games matters. There is no Jason Terry lighting up LeBron in the 2007 or 2008 series that you mention. LeBron is not a 22 year old in his first finals going up against one of the greatest franchises of all time with one of the best defenders in the league guarding him the entire series. He's already at this point a two time MVP and now has Wade and Bosh as teammates, and they both outplayed him. Stats do not tell the whole story, and when what actually happened conflicts with the series stats you are presenting, you only end up hurting your own argument. You showing those three series side by side demonstrates exactly why your argument does not work.


Saying Jordan didn't do dirty work is either the worst troll ever or you have the least knowledge ever.

No, having the least knowledge ever would be stating that LeBron guarded Courtney Lee in the 2009 playoffs or that Scottie Pippen was a defensive roleplayer.


MJ got more DPOY votes every year and was considered the better defender by everyone (see previous post), while averaging more steals and blocks?.. So MJ played all the defense and did all the dirty work.

What does DOPY have to do with the playoffs?


MJ also averaged more assists, assist percentage, usage and twice the points, so he ran the offense.

First off, no he didn't.

Pippen averages from first three peat: 6.2, 7, 6.3.
Pippen averages from second three peat: 5.9, 5.7, 5.8.

Jordan averages from first three peat: 5.5, 6.1, 5.5.
Jordan averages from second three peat: 5.3, 4.3, 4.3.

I know you have a reputation for being a dumbshit on this site. But I would hope that at the very least, you would understand how math works. There wasn't a single season during the Chicago Bulls championship seasons where Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen. Now I know what you're going to say: oh but in the playoffs there are a couple where Jordan averaged more assists. Yeah, no shit. That's going to happen when teams are forced to consistently double team the man and he has to pass out to the open man. That's how Jordan got a good amount of his assists. He knew next to nothing about how to run an offense. He didn't have to. Pippen did that for him.

Second, that's not what "running the offense" means you idiot. Running the offense is directing traffic and telling everyone where to be at all times. It's making sure everyone is in position. What you're thinking of is playmaking, which is completely different.


Do you realize that Jordan guarded Payton as the primary defender for Games 3 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and 5 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg)?.. So you're literally lying - making shit up because you HAVE TO (it's hard to support a fraud).

Lmao how is that an example of me lying? You cited TWO GAMES out of a six game series as proof that Jordan did in fact do all the dirty work for the majority of a series? Again, do you not understand how math works? Do you suffer from mental deficiencies that prevent you from doing something as simple as basic addition? Do me a favor, what is 3+5? Please, answer that without cheating.

Also, that's seriously your best example? THAT? Gary Payton wasn't even the best offensive player the Supersonics had. That would be Kemp and Schermpf. Again, I wouldn't expect you to know that because, as we all know, you didn't watch the games.


Scoring is what determines if a player is a 2nd option - without adequate scoring, the player is just a defensive role player.

And once again, there you go again demonstrating your complete lack of basketball knowledge.

First off your point doesn't even make any sense. Regardless of whether or not the scoring was "adequate", Pippen was still the second option on offense. That's a fact, supported by both stats and by literally watching the game. Second, it wouldn't matter if Pippen was in fact just a defensive role player. He was still the second best player on a franchise that won six championships, all of which he was an all star level talent for.


and Pippen's stats during the 2nd three-peat (especially the 96' Finals) showed that he wasn't a legit 2nd option - Jordan 3-peated with a defensive role player from 96-98'.

How? How are they proof that he was not a legit second option? A legit second option would imply that someone else was in fact in that role. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.


Ultimately, Pippen's low scoring for a winning sidekick and worst-ever efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick ever (that won chips)... Infact, Pippen was outscored by opposing 2nd options in half the series of his career, so he wasn't a real 2nd option, while his low PPG and worst-ever efficiency proved that he couldn't handle the load.

How does it prove he couldn't handle the load? The bulls still won the championship six times. That alone is in fact proof that he could handle the load. You said yourself that Jordan could not win without help, right? Well guess what? Pippen was his second option on offense and they won. You can't have it both ways. The only way the statement "Pippen couldn't handle the load" has any merit to it is if the Chicago Bulls lose in the finals and it ends up being Pippen's fault. And guess what? That never happened. Six times to the finals and all six times, the Bulls won.

And the thing is, we already know why you continue to focus on his scoring, because you know that's the only thing you can argue against. You didn't watch the games, you have no knowledge of what Pippen actually brought to the table, so you choose to focus on the only thing that looks poor on his statline and pretend that he's somehow not cut for the role. It's hilarious. In reality, Pippen was an incredible all around player who did all the things Jordan didn't have to do and that made life a lot easier for the man. You have no argument. None.

[3ba11]

Rajon Rondo was the first option on the 2010 Celtics? Are you insane? You didn’t say “leading scorer” you said first option. It’s not my fault Pierce bricked too much to be the leading scorer.

And of course you desperately dodged the Vince Carter stats. Why nothing to say about that, Snivelly? Gonna cry and post another bot comment? Bleep bloop you’re malfunctioning!


It's easier to say "1st option" but of course we mean "leading scorer in series" - Lebron is the only leading scorer in a series that shot 35% twice

^^^ see that's too wordy and it's easier to just say 1st option and have everyone know what you mean... :confusedshrug:

It's the same thing with Pippen outscoring opposing 1st or 2nd options - we really mean 1st leading scorer and 2nd leading scorer.. He outscored 1st leading scorers in less than 1/3 of series during title runs, and he outscored 2nd leading scorers about 75% of the time - this is commensurate with the lower tier of sidekick that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip Hamilton), and far below the top tier that usually outscored 1st options and achieved FMVP (Kobe, Curry, Kareem, Worthy, etc)

[RRR3]

It's easier to say "1st option" but of course we mean "leading scorer in series" - Lebron is the only leading scorer in a series that shot 35% twice

^^^ see that's too wordy and it's easier to just say 1st option and have everyone know what you mean... :confusedshrug:

It's the same thing with Pippen outscoring opposing 1st or 2nd options - we really mean 1st leading scorer and 2nd leading scorer.. He outscored 1st leading scorers in less than 1/3 of series during title runs, and he outscored 2nd leading scorers about 75% of the time - this is commensurate with the lower tier of sidekick that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip Hamilton), and far below the top tier that usually outscored 1st options and achieved FMVP (Kobe, Curry, Kareem, Worthy, etc)
Vince Carter was his teams leading scorer in the series he shot 30.0% and 35.4% you liar. How are you gonna wiggle out of this one? I’m guessing another bot malfunction

[RRR3]

Vince Carter was his teams leading scorer in the series he shot 30.0% and 35.4% you liar. How are you gonna wiggle out of this one? I’m guessing another bot malfunction
Snivelly? Where you at fella? Having a little malfunction?

[ArbitraryWater]

It’s an interesting comparison, because both guys started their playoff careers better than 1-9.

I think it’s too early to make a call. Gotta give Luka a few more years before comparing him to the guy who led the premiere sports dynasty of the 90s.

:roll::roll:

[SaintzFury13]

Last 3 games of 96' Finals:


Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996#137-139-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs).... 23.7 on 36.7%
Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01/gamelog/1996#136-138-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs).... 13.3 on 29.6%


The numbers speak for themselves.

There you go again with using averages instead of going by individual games while using context. I would have thought you had learned by now after the 2008 argument but apparently not.


Btw, in the closeout game, the Bulls won by 12 - this matters because Jordan held his matchup to 12 points below their normal averages (hawkins), while everyone else let their man go off (payton, kemp, schrempf) - so Jordan led the Bulls in defense, scoring and assists in the closeout game.. :confusedshrug:

Sorry, but according to you, the only thing that matters is scoring and doing so on good efficiency. Jordan shot worse than Pippen by a considerable margin in that game so it doesn't matter. If you're going to blame LeBron for 2008 despite his great game 5 and 7 performances, then we're going to criticize Jordan for this. Don't like it? Don't use dumbshit arguments.


What teammates? Jordan's sidekick was literally worst-ever with 15 on 34% (not a threat), so Jordan faced the most attention ever - literally - the youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding Jordan in Game 4, and it shows that Jordan was double-teamed 10 of 20 times that he caught the ball with Payton guarding him..

What teammates?

How about a top 25 all time player in Pippen according to official rankings, a man who had literal FMVP votes in Dennis Rodman, and just for good measure, we'll also point out one of the best defensive PG's in the league in Harper, the sixth man of the year in Kukoc, and sure, we'll throw Steve Kerr in because why the hell not? He bailed Jordan out at one point so we'll throw him into the mix.

If it isn't for any of those guys, Bulls do not win the 96 title, especially Dennis Rodman. I think LeBron would have loved to have had a Dennis Rodman type of player on his team in 2007. But your dumbass will probably try to argue that one his teammates were that caliber.


Here's the link to the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk), or you can just see all 10 double-teams in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161)...

I don't need to see the video. Unlike you I watched those games. I'm well aware that Jordan was double teamed constantly. Guess what? So was LeBron in 2007, oh and 2008, oh and even 2011 as well. You still want to continue to play with this bullshit narrative? I can do this all day.


Obviously, if Jordan had teammates that could muster more than 15 on 34%, then he wouldn't face so much defensive attention.. Kenny Smith says it best - everyone played with a teammate that got double-teamed except Jordan, so he was the only 1-man show in history (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s)).

Name one teammate that Dirk Nowitzki had that was consistently double teamed in his finals runs. I'll wait.


Jordan got a 3-0 lead by averaging 31 on 46%, which isn't a black mark - who cares what happened in garbage time after the series was 3-0?.. Jordan literally said this:



"this is the most relaxed that I've ever been in the Finals.. I guess a 3-0 lead makes you a little more relaxed....."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=42m32s


So Jordan was planning his vacation while Payton was frothing at the mouth to save face - it was garbage time and that's why Payton had some marginal success, along with the refs helping him - that wouldn't occur in Game 1 when both Jordan and Payton are equally desperate and the refs call it even-steven.

So now you're resorting to claiming the refs were favoring the Sonics. That's how you know you've lost the argument when you're resorting to that. Not even going to bother with the rest of this part. Going to take my obvious W and leave it at that.


Jordan was 9-18 with 26 points in Game 5, so Payton only had great defense for 2 games - this matters because Starks guarded Jordan far better for the first few games of the 1993 ECF, where Jordan shot 32% thru 3 games and 28% for games 1 and 3 (where Starks completely locked down MJ)..

You do realize you are only hurting any future arguments that you make now going forward by acknowledging this, right?

And also, once again, watch the games you idiot. You are just further hurting your argument by acting like Payton didn't play good defense in game 5. Payton constantly prevented Jordan from getting any good scoring opportunities. Jordan literally had to jump at the chance to score whenever Payton wasn't on him because he knew that his best opportunity was there.


So Jordan didn't figure out Starks until Game 4 - he realized that he could just shoot over Starks and had 54 points on all jumpers - Jordan would figure out Payton the same way, assuming he doesn't just go off in Game 1 due to equal mentalities/desperation and equal referreeing - the idea that Payton always holds Jordan to low stats shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.. Literally, you're thinking something that's really dumb.

I'm not thinking anything. That's literally what happened you numbskull. Payton switched on Jordan and there was almost an immediate difference in stats. But I wouldn't expect someone who didn't watch the games to know this.

That's my one long back and forth with you on this. I'm not responding to the next one you do, although I doubt you will anyways.

[3ba11]

Assists - Regular Season





Playoffs - Jordan led in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while leading in assist percentage by ridiculous margins - and if the Bulls needed more than 7 apg, jordan was the only option - so jordan was the only elite passer and playmaker with a breakdown handle, while Pippen couldn't average elite assists and couldn't break guys down off-the-dribble.

you forget that there's less available shots for Jordan to assist on (because his own shot volume was higher), yet he averaged the same or more assists than Pippen, which means his ASSIST PERCENTAGE was much higher than Pippen's - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage), while doubling Pippen's scoring..

So MJ ran the offense - i feel stupid saying that because it's the most foregone conclusion in sports history to say the greatest offensive player in basketabll history ran his team's offense.







First off, 42% is bad. If you are taking shots at the volume Jordan is, that is a detriment to you and your team. And the same logic applies to LeBron.





42% is a lot better than 35%, just like MJ is a lot better than lebron...

so everything adds up.. it's good when things add up.






Second, I've already explained why your logic in regards to the 2008 playoffs doesn't work. There were two games where LeBron scored at a high rate on decent efficiency and his team wet the bed. Therefor, not his fault. Same with 07. LeBron was the Spurs main focus on offense. It's idiotic to blame LeBron when he was not only the only consistent offensive option they had, but no one else was capable of stepping up to help lead the scoring in his place. Therefor, not his fault.

That leaves us with 2011, and guess what? LeBron in that series actually had very good efficiency. 48% across the board? That's not bad at all. And yet it's considered his worst playoff series of all time. But how could that be? His efficiency was really good. Because context and understanding what happened in those games matters. There is no Jason Terry lighting up LeBron in the 2007 or 2008 series that you mention. LeBron is not a 22 year old in his first finals going up against one of the greatest franchises of all time with one of the best defenders in the league guarding him the entire series. He's already at this point a two time MVP and now has Wade and Bosh as teammates, and they both outplayed him. Stats do not tell the whole story, and when what actually happened conflicts with the series stats you are presenting, you only end up hurting your own argument. You showing those three series side by side demonstrates exactly why your argument does not work.





Magic was FMVP at 20 years old, while Jordan averaged 44/6/6 against the champion Celtics and their #1 defense at 23 years old...

So why are you making excuses for 22-year Lebron playing worse than anyone ever has in the 07' Finals?

You're just making a bunch of really bad excuses - other guys played better in the same spot.






No, having the least knowledge ever would be stating that LeBron guarded Courtney Lee in the 2009 playoffs or that Scottie Pippen was a defensive roleplayer.





Lebron cowardly guarded Lee and Alston in the 2009 ECF, who were among the worst rotation players on the Magic.

And that's why they lost - Lebron was guarding trash players instead of the opposing point forward that was setting up Dwight.

Btw, spotty scorers that play good defense are called defensive role players.. it's a fact.. So no one cares about Pippen's hustle or defense or role player shit - everyone does those things.






What does DOPY have to do with the playoffs?





Jordan was simply considered a much better defender (here)... :confusedshrug:....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498067-Pippen-vs-Luka&p=14452146&viewfull=1#post14452146


so you're just lying and desperate to overrate Pippen's defense because you can't compliment his offense - story of pippen's career.






There wasn't a single season during the Chicago Bulls championship seasons where Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen. Now I know what you're going to say: oh but in the playoffs there are a couple where Jordan averaged more assists.





6 of 9 playoff runs, including 3 title runs, while leading in assist percentage nearly every year

so you're just lying again by saying "a couple"






Jordan knew next to nothing about how to run an offense. He didn't have to. Pippen did that for him.





If the Bulls needed someone to average more than 7 assists, Jordan was the only option and therefore the only elite passer on the team - Pippen couldn't even break guys down off-the-dribble.

The Associated Press literally said Jordan was a better point guard than Magic, Isiah and Stockton after just 16 games at the position in 1989 (let me know if you need the link - it's googlable).. Otoh, Pippen isn't an elite point guard like Jordan, Magic or Stockton.






Running the offense is directing traffic and telling everyone where to be at all times. It's making sure everyone is in position.





Everyone ran the same routes in the equal-opportunity triangle, so no one needed to be told where to be - you're just lying again..

Heck, I played high school and D1 and telling guys where to be isn't a thing - if you don't know where to stand then you're incompetent and will be benched... :confusedshrug:

And if anyone told people where to be, it was Jordan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFK_q4swYNs*t=20m23s






You cited TWO GAMES out of a six game series as proof that Jordan did in fact do all the dirty work for the majority of a series?





In addition to averaging more steals and blocks for his career, Jordan did more dirty work than Pippen because he actually held his man down (aka hawkins and payton), while Pippen let his assignments go off (Schrempf and Kemp)..

this is standard - jordan always held his man to 35-43% shooting, while Pippen never held anyone down - in the 93' Finals, the rookie and 4th option Dumas averaged the same stats as 14' Kawhi.






How? How are they proof that he was not a legit second option?





Basketball is played with 5 guys on the court, so Jordan will always have a "2nd option" even if that guy sucks like Pippen.

low scoring for a winning sidekick + worst-ever efficiency = worst scoring sidekick that ever won






How does low efficiency prove Pippen couldn't handle the load?





If you can't shoot well with the shot attempts you were given, then you can't handle the load - Pippen's worst-ever efficiency proved that Pippen couldn't handle the volume/load.

Ultimately, it's a coincidence that Pippen played with Jordan, yet you guys are weaponizing this coincidence and pretending Jordan couldn't win with anyone else - this might hold merit if Pippen was a dominator and high-producer - but his low ppg for a winning sidekick and worst-ever efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.. He's just the lucky low-producer that happened to play alongisde MJ.. The team was going to win regardless once MJ entered his prime, and Pippen just happened to be there.. Again, his weak stats show that tons of guys could've won in his place.

[97 bulls]

.

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

This is why nobody takes you seriously. You Literally told another poster it's not fair to compare rookies, 2nd, and 3rd year players to established players when Kobes 2000 run was brought up. But here you're compare Pippen as a rookie, 2nd, and 3rd year player to an established player in MJ.


And then you don't apply context. Pippen missed half the season in 98, he beat or tied MJ in all the other years in question but 93. And 2 of Pippens best years weren't included because MJ didn't play.

You're not consistent in your arguments at all.

[RRR3]

Vince Carter was his teams leading scorer in the series he shot 30.0% and 35.4% you liar. How are you gonna wiggle out of this one? I’m guessing another bot malfunction
Snivelball literally can’t respond to this because he’d be admitting he’s a liar :oldlol:


Disgusting coward.

[3ba11]

There you go again with using averages instead of going by individual games while using context. I would have thought you had learned by now after the 2008 argument but apparently not.





in the closeout game, Jordan led the Bulls in scoring, assists, and overall defense (the only guy that held his man down).. Then there's the last 3 games:

Last 3 games of 96' Finals

Jordan.... 23.7 on 36.7%
Pippen.... 13.3 on 29.6%


So I'm not sure what more you want - it's all right there - individual games and context






Sorry, but according to you, the only thing that matters is scoring and doing so on good efficiency. Jordan shot worse than Pippen by a considerable margin in that game so it doesn't matter. If you're going to blame LeBron for 2008 despite his great game 5 and 7 performances, then we're going to criticize Jordan for this. Don't like it? Don't use dumbshit arguments.





Pippen shot 34% for the series but you want to say that's okay because he shot 42% in the closeout?

Jeez, you're getting killed today.

Ultimately, Lebron lost 3 times while shooting under 40%, while Jordan never lost while shooting like garbage - so only Lebron can say he lost due to shit efficiency.






What teammates?

How about a top 25 all time player in Pippen according to official rankings, a man who had literal FMVP votes in Dennis Rodman, and just for good measure, we'll also point out one of the best defensive PG's in the league in Harper, the sixth man of the year in Kukoc, and sure, we'll throw Steve Kerr in because why the hell not? He bailed Jordan out at one point so we'll throw him into the mix.

If it isn't for any of those guys, Bulls do not win the 96 title, especially Dennis Rodman. I think LeBron would have loved to have had a Dennis Rodman type of player on his team in 2007. But your dumbass will probably try to argue that one his teammates were that caliber.





^^^ all those guys were role players that every team has with horrific production, which forced MJ to have goat production... 2+2=4

You're just praising whoever Jordan's teammates were, even though they all sucked, as the stats show - NONE OF THEM EVER DOMINATED... EVER... this is unique to Jordan's teams in the history of basketball, aside from one-off champs.






I don't need to see the video. Unlike you I watched those games. I'm well aware that Jordan was double teamed constantly. Guess what? So was LeBron in 2007, oh and 2008, oh and even 2011 as well. You still want to continue to play with this bullshit narrative? I can do this all day.





Teams meet penetrators at the rim with multiple defenders, so only elite jumpshooters that can blow the game open get doubled - that isn't Lebron obviously.

He's never been doubled in his career more than one-offs - in the 15' Finals, he shot like trash despite being on an island with Iggy and no doubles - so you're using his weak efficiency to say he got doubled in 07' or 08', but it was just like the 15' Playoffs when he shot like dogshit because LeBrick can't shoot and lacks elite jumpshooting skill.

Imagine shooting horrifically against single coverage and a defender that's 3 inches shorter... :facepalm:... lebron is simply TRASH compared to Mike.





Name one teammate that Dirk Nowitzki had that was consistently double teamed in his finals runs. I'll wait.





Kenny Smith said for his whole career - Jordan is the only guy that never played with a teammate that got doubled FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER... he carried that load for an ENTIRE CAREER (1-man team)






So now you're resorting to claiming the refs were favoring the Sonics.





You're lying - I mentioned a lot more than just the refs - here's a repost:


Jordan got a 3-0 lead by averaging 31 on 46%, which isn't a black mark - who cares what happened in garbage time after the series was 3-0?.. Jordan literally said this:



"this is the most relaxed that I've ever been in the Finals.. I guess a 3-0 lead makes you a little more relaxed....."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=42m32s


So Jordan was planning his vacation while Payton was frothing at the mouth to save face - it was garbage time and that's why Payton had some marginal success, along with the refs helping him - that wouldn't occur in Game 1 when both Jordan and Payton are equally desperate and the refs call it even-steven.






ou do realize you are only hurting any future arguments that you make now going forward by acknowledging this, right?





No because Jordan figured Starks out - that's what happens after a few games when someone guards the goat scorer..

this would've happened to Payton if Payton guarded him from Game 1, or Jordan would've just destroyed him right away because the mentalities were equal in Game 1 (Jordan wasn't "the most relaxed he'd ever been", and Payton wasn't frothing at the mouth desperate to save face with no pressure).





And also, once again, watch the games you idiot. You are just further hurting your argument by acting like Payton didn't play good defense in game 5. Payton constantly prevented Jordan from getting any good scoring opportunities. Jordan literally had to jump at the chance to score whenever Payton wasn't on him because he knew that his best opportunity was there.

I'm not thinking anything. That's literally what happened you numbskull. Payton switched on Jordan and there was almost an immediate difference in stats. But I wouldn't expect someone who didn't watch the games to know this.

That's my one long back and forth with you on this. I'm not responding to the next one you do, although I doubt you will anyways





Jordan destroyed Payton for his entire career except 2 games in the Finals when Jordan had already won the series (garbage time).

So if that's the best you can do, then you haven't said anything... :confusedshrug:... Jordan literally had the perfect career (6/6 and no losses as favorite - aka goat team ceilings and never failing - perfect career)

[RRR3]

Vince Carter was his teams leading scorer in the series he shot 30.0% and 35.4% you liar. How are you gonna wiggle out of this one? I’m guessing another bot malfunction
He can’t respond. The bot has completely broken down!

[3ba11]

He can’t respond. The bot has completely broken down!


You guys are making my point - I said that Lebron is the only 1st option that shot 35% in a series loss twice, and you guys can only find ONE EXCEPTION to this

I've always felt that Lebron wasn't that much better than Vince and now we see them linked in history as the worst-shooting first options ever

[RRR3]

You guys are making my point - I said that Lebron is the only 1st option that shot 35% in a series loss twice, and you guys can only find ONE EXCEPTION to this

I've always felt that Lebron wasn't that much better than Vince and now we see them linked in history as the worst-shooting first options ever
I found multiple examples and then you moved the goalposts and regardless you were caught lying and won’t admit it. Disgusting. I’m also not even trying that hard. You’re using FG% like a caveman anyways. Your hero Kobe had a 41% TS in the 2000 finals LeBron has NEVER had efficiency that hideous :oldlol:

[Kobe_Bryant]

for today's NBA Lukas better. for any other era it's pippen obviously. a soft euro white boy with no athleticism is only dominating this wwe trash era. hes a Toni kukoc in any other decade

[tanibanana]

So far the results is in favor for Pippen as it should be.
In fact I am amaze how much Luka is getting all the love.
Luka’s career is arguably still at 1/8, so we can never really tell if he’ll continue to rise further or is he almost at his ceiling.

[Axe]

Oh boy, a 3ball post where he actually tries. Can't wait to make this backfire on him.



Congrats, you completely missed my point. I never once stated LeBron was superior to Jordan, so I don't know why you're bringing this up.



First off, 42% is bad. If you are taking shots at the volume Jordan is, that is a detriment to you and your team. And the same logic applies to LeBron.

Second, I've already explained why your logic in regards to the 2008 playoffs doesn't work. There were two games where LeBron scored at a high rate on decent efficiency and his team wet the bed. Therefor, not his fault. Same with 07. LeBron was the Spurs main focus on offense. It's idiotic to blame LeBron when he was not only the only consistent offensive option they had, but no one else was capable of stepping up to help lead the scoring in his place. Therefor, not his fault.

That leaves us with 2011, and guess what? LeBron in that series actually had very good efficiency. 48% across the board? That's not bad at all. And yet it's considered his worst playoff series of all time. But how could that be? His efficiency was really good. Because context and understanding what happened in those games matters. There is no Jason Terry lighting up LeBron in the 2007 or 2008 series that you mention. LeBron is not a 22 year old in his first finals going up against one of the greatest franchises of all time with one of the best defenders in the league guarding him the entire series. He's already at this point a two time MVP and now has Wade and Bosh as teammates, and they both outplayed him. Stats do not tell the whole story, and when what actually happened conflicts with the series stats you are presenting, you only end up hurting your own argument. You showing those three series side by side demonstrates exactly why your argument does not work.



No, having the least knowledge ever would be stating that LeBron guarded Courtney Lee in the 2009 playoffs or that Scottie Pippen was a defensive roleplayer.



What does DOPY have to do with the playoffs?



First off, no he didn't.

Pippen averages from first three peat: 6.2, 7, 6.3.
Pippen averages from second three peat: 5.9, 5.7, 5.8.

Jordan averages from first three peat: 5.5, 6.1, 5.5.
Jordan averages from second three peat: 5.3, 4.3, 4.3.

I know you have a reputation for being a dumbshit on this site. But I would hope that at the very least, you would understand how math works. There wasn't a single season during the Chicago Bulls championship seasons where Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen. Now I know what you're going to say: oh but in the playoffs there are a couple where Jordan averaged more assists. Yeah, no shit. That's going to happen when teams are forced to consistently double team the man and he has to pass out to the open man. That's how Jordan got a good amount of his assists. He knew next to nothing about how to run an offense. He didn't have to. Pippen did that for him.

Second, that's not what "running the offense" means you idiot. Running the offense is directing traffic and telling everyone where to be at all times. It's making sure everyone is in position. What you're thinking of is playmaking, which is completely different.



Lmao how is that an example of me lying? You cited TWO GAMES out of a six game series as proof that Jordan did in fact do all the dirty work for the majority of a series? Again, do you not understand how math works? Do you suffer from mental deficiencies that prevent you from doing something as simple as basic addition? Do me a favor, what is 3+5? Please, answer that without cheating.

Also, that's seriously your best example? THAT? Gary Payton wasn't even the best offensive player the Supersonics had. That would be Kemp and Schermpf. Again, I wouldn't expect you to know that because, as we all know, you didn't watch the games.



And once again, there you go again demonstrating your complete lack of basketball knowledge.

First off your point doesn't even make any sense. Regardless of whether or not the scoring was "adequate", Pippen was still the second option on offense. That's a fact, supported by both stats and by literally watching the game. Second, it wouldn't matter if Pippen was in fact just a defensive role player. He was still the second best player on a franchise that won six championships, all of which he was an all star level talent for.



How? How are they proof that he was not a legit second option? A legit second option would imply that someone else was in fact in that role. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.



How does it prove he couldn't handle the load? The bulls still won the championship six times. That alone is in fact proof that he could handle the load. You said yourself that Jordan could not win without help, right? Well guess what? Pippen was his second option on offense and they won. You can't have it both ways. The only way the statement "Pippen couldn't handle the load" has any merit to it is if the Chicago Bulls lose in the finals and it ends up being Pippen's fault. And guess what? That never happened. Six times to the finals and all six times, the Bulls won.

And the thing is, we already know why you continue to focus on his scoring, because you know that's the only thing you can argue against. You didn't watch the games, you have no knowledge of what Pippen actually brought to the table, so you choose to focus on the only thing that looks poor on his statline and pretend that he's somehow not cut for the role. It's hilarious. In reality, Pippen was an incredible all around player who did all the things Jordan didn't have to do and that made life a lot easier for the man. You have no argument. None.
All these walls of texts to convince him yet he's not persuaded at all. :ohwell:

[Manny98]

Snivelball literally can’t respond to this because he’d be admitting he’s a liar :oldlol:


Disgusting coward.
You're actually helping his argument by equating LeBron to Vince Carter you f*cking moron :facepalm

[aceman]

Who cares about defense because you can surround Luka with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive players to surround him.

So an offense can't be elite (no 2-way team) with Pippen as the best scorer, while Luka can have a 2-way team.

Also, Pippen was a 5 assist guy and mid-tier playmaker, so Jordan never got to benefit from elite 10-15 assist playmakers like Luka, Harden, Stockton, or Payton (who are all more decorated than Pippen despite not having the bias of a high ring count, aka their performance/stats can stand on it's own)

This guy is averaging about 25 posts here a day since join date of June. Not healthy for either party

[HoopsNY]

Peak Pippen gets my vote. We'll see what Luka does in a few years. You just sonned yourself HARD body with this thread lol.

[3ba11]

Peak Pippen gets my vote. We'll see what Luka does in a few years. You just sonned yourself HARD body with this thread lol.


Peak Pippen was 22/5 and career-defining embarrassment in the 2nd Round

Luka is far superior to that

And Luka can have a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of the ball), while Pippen can't..

Everyone knows that great offensive players like Luka, Reggie Miller, Curry or Kyrie can be surrounded by cheap defenders to have a #1 defense, while Pippen can't have a top 5 offense - if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team will have a shit offense (bulls were #14 in 94').. So Pippen can't have a 2-way team.

Btw, this thread shows how monumentally dumb you guys are

[Phoenix]

Peak Pippen was 22/5 and 2nd Round career-defining embarrassment

Rookie Luka was superior to that

And Luka can have a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of the ball), while Pippen can't.. Everyone knows that great offensive players like Luka, Reggie Miller, Curry or Kyrie can be surrounded by cheap defenders to have a #1 defense, while Pippen can't have a top 5 offense - if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team will have a shit offense (bulls were #14 in 94')



Btw, this thread shows how monumentally dumb you guys are

Or how monumentally stupid you are polling a board of posters whose opinions you believe to be monumentally dumb.

[3ba11]

Or how monumentally stupid you are polling a board of posters whose opinions you believe to be monumentally dumb.


if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team will have a shit offense (bulls were #14 in 94')

So Pippen can't have a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of ball), while Luka can - doesn't that make Luka better than Pippen?

Everyone knows that great offensive players like Luka, Reggie Miller, Curry or Kyrie can be surrounded by cheap defenders to have a #1 defense, while Pippen can't have a top 5 offense

[3ba11]

if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team will have a shit offense (bulls were #14 in 94')

So Pippen can't have a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of ball), while Luka can - doesn't that make Luka better than Pippen?

Everyone knows that great offensive players like Luka, Reggie Miller, Curry or Kyrie can be surrounded by cheap defenders to have a #1 defense, while Pippen can't have a top 5 offense




Phoenix was presented with these set of facts and ran from them

[Phoenix]

if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team will have a shit offense (bulls were #14 in 94')

So Pippen can't have a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of ball), while Luka can - doesn't that make Luka better than Pippen?

Everyone knows that great offensive players like Luka, Reggie Miller, Curry or Kyrie can be surrounded by cheap defenders to have a #1 defense, while Pippen can't have a top 5 offense

That's a reply. Nothing to do with what I said, but do you.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix was presented with these set of facts and ran from them

Ran from what? You have a low opinion of the opinions on this forum. So in your infinite wisdom, you created a poll to gauge opinions from those you don't respect.

You, my friend, are dumb as shit.

[Phoenix]

Or how monumentally stupid you are polling a board of posters whose opinions you believe to be monumentally dumb.

3nut was presented with facts and ran from it.

[HoopsNY]

Peak Pippen was 22/5 and career-defining embarrassment in the 2nd Round

Luka is far superior to that

And Luka can have a 2-way team (top 5 on both sides of the ball), while Pippen can't..

Everyone knows that great offensive players like Luka, Reggie Miller, Curry or Kyrie can be surrounded by cheap defenders to have a #1 defense, while Pippen can't have a top 5 offense - if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team will have a shit offense (bulls were #14 in 94').. So Pippen can't have a 2-way team.

Btw, this thread shows how monumentally dumb you guys are

Well, I guess everyone in the world is dumb and you're the genius. Great.

[3ba11]

Well, I guess everyone in the world is dumb and you're the genius. Great.


Pippen > Luka?

That means you guys are dumb... Period

Luka dominates, while Pippen literally never did and usually couldn't handle a 2nd option load, let alone 1st - Pippen was outscored by 2nd options in half his series, while his low ppg and worst-ever efficiency proves that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load

[3ba11]

Iggy led the 2013 Nuggets to 57 wins or Blake led the 14'Clippers

So based on the logic used for Pippen, this is top 30 all-time..

Somehow a top 1000 performance is inflated to top 30 (hate for the goat causes this)