The Dumb Logic in Many of the NBA Player Rank Lists

[Stephonit]

NBA player ranking lists are popular points of discussion on an NBA forum unsurprisingly. What is surprising is the way people accept the complete idiocy on display in many of them.

Notable examples:

Pippen ahead of Havlicek.

How is this possible? Pippen has 6 championships. Yay. Havlicek has 8. Havlicek also won one of those leading a team without Russell and a pretty much different roster from those Russell Celtics. Another non-championship team he was on won 68 games.

I guess you could try saying it was a different older era but then what are we to make of

Oscar Robertson in the teens?

Other older players' accomplishments are disputed and diminished but this guy for some reason avoids that. Why?

But he played on a bad team? Well then why does it happen that

Magic and Kareem are top 5?

Magic played on a stacked team nearly his whole career and for most of it with a player considered the greatest by many. He still seems to get full credit for his wins though while someone like Russell who was on even more dominant teams doesn't. One would also think that with two top 5 players ever the Showtime Lakers would be far and away the greatest team ever. But no.

Any of the above appearing on their own is understandable. But all three on the same list? Ridiculous.

Many other illogical leaps are commonly seen. Maybe we'll get to those too.

[Sulico]

I agree that Havlicek is underrated and Robertson is overrated.

I personally have Havlicek over Robertson in my list.

But Magic? Everybody who won a lot of chips played on a stacked teams, Magic was no exception.
Russell had team full of hall of famers.
Same for Bird.
Jordan teams were most stacked ever compared to his rivals.
Kobe's teams were so stacked he wasn't even best player on most of them. Shaq was on those teams too.
Duncan had big 3 or big 4 every time.
Lebron formed two superteams.
Curry had Durant for 2 out of 3.

[NBAGOAT]

pippen is just better than havlicek for some people and era has to do with that.

Oscar puts up his insane stats and still is a top 4 player of his era. West who's also top 4 also gets ranked highly.

Some of Magic's best years come when kareem was past his prime

[iamgine]

NBA player ranking lists are popular points of discussion on an NBA forum unsurprisingly. What is surprising is the way people accept the complete idiocy on display in many of them.

Notable examples:

Pippen ahead of Havlicek.

How is this possible? Pippen has 6 championships. Yay. Havlicek has 8. Havlicek also won one of those leading a team without Russell and a pretty much different roster from those Russell Celtics. Another non-championship team he was on won 68 games.
Umm Pippen won those 6 while being clearly the 2nd most important player in the team.

Havlicek was sometimes the 4th or 5th guy for 4 of those championships.

[2much_knowledge]

After MJ, from #2 to 100, there is no real accurate list. Perception, bias, nostalgia, short sightedness all play a big factor. I change my mind all the time when i make top 20, top 30 list

[SATAN]

http://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/12-facts-ancient-roman-gladiators_8.jpg

[Jasper]

pippen is just better than havlicek for some people and era has to do with that.

Oscar puts up his insane stats and still is a top 4 player of his era. West who's also top 4 also gets ranked highly.

Some of Magic's best years come when kareem was past his prime
Jordan , Lebron, Kareem, Majic, Duncan
The other equation is one on one (head to head)
Pippen would of killed Hondo , as much as I loved Hondo , pip is ahead of him.
But dumping Hondo in nothing less than top 15 is a disgrace.... he was an awesome passer , rebounder, and defender, while leading in scoring
as well as a team caption. (back then it really meant something !!)


After MJ, from #2 to 100, there is no real accurate list. Perception, bias, nostalgia, short sightedness all play a big factor. I change my mind all the time when i make top 20, top 30 list

False (above list proves it)

[Stephonit]

I agree that Havlicek is underrated and Robertson is overrated.

I personally have Havlicek over Robertson in my list.

But Magic? Everybody who won a lot of chips played on a stacked teams, Magic was no exception.
Russell had team full of hall of famers.
Same for Bird.
Jordan teams were most stacked ever compared to his rivals.
Kobe's teams were so stacked he wasn't even best player on most of them. Shaq was on those teams too.
Duncan had big 3 or big 4 every time.
Lebron formed two superteams.
Curry had Durant for 2 out of 3.

Yet none of them had the good fortune of being on a team with proven experienced players from start to end of his prime than Magic. Magic was playing with at least a top 50 player during each of his runs. His signature years were what? 1987? 1988? 1991? Walked through one of the easiest draws ever in 1987. Barely edged out the Pistons in 1988. Made the finals in 1991. Looks like a solid top 20 player to me. But top 5? No. Where are the records? Where is the eyebrow-raising performance or dominance?

[expansionera]

After MJ, from #2 to 100, there is no real accurate list. Perception, bias, nostalgia, short sightedness all play a big factor. I change my mind all the time when i make top 20, top 30 list

MJ is far from the consensus GOAT

[Kobe_Bryant]

oscar, West and Baylor belong with cousy, havlicek and rick Barry. theyre all around the same. not much separating them aside from popularity. they're all guys that dominated sh*tty eras

either put them all really high or all really low. having 20 to 30 players inbetween them doesn't make much sense

[insight]

NBA player ranking lists are popular points of discussion on an NBA forum unsurprisingly. What is surprising is the way people accept the complete idiocy on display in many of them.

Notable examples:

Pippen ahead of Havlicek.

How is this possible? Pippen has 6 championships. Yay. Havlicek has 8. Havlicek also won one of those leading a team without Russell and a pretty much different roster from those Russell Celtics. Another non-championship team he was on won 68 games.

I guess you could try saying it was a different older era but then what are we to make of

Oscar Robertson in the teens?

Other older players' accomplishments are disputed and diminished but this guy for some reason avoids that. Why?

But he played on a bad team? Well then why does it happen that

Magic and Kareem are top 5?

Magic played on a stacked team nearly his whole career and for most of it with a player considered the greatest by many. He still seems to get full credit for his wins though while someone like Russell who was on even more dominant teams doesn't. One would also think that with two top 5 players ever the Showtime Lakers would be far and away the greatest team ever. But no.

Any of the above appearing on their own is understandable. But all three on the same list? Ridiculous.

Many other illogical leaps are commonly seen. Maybe we'll get to those too.


He won 8 championships but how many teams were in the league at the time? How many playoff rounds did you play to win a championship?

[Stephonit]

Umm Pippen won those 6 while being clearly the 2nd most important player in the team.

Havlicek was sometimes the 4th or 5th guy for 4 of those championships.

One could probably argue Havlicek was the number one guy for two of the championships with Russell and the one with Cowens and White.


He won 8 championships but how many teams were in the league at the time? How many playoff rounds did you play to win a championship?

They did play one round less but the stars of those days were less pampered.

The Knicks that eliminated the Havlicek-led Celtics were storied champions and are probably on a higher tier than the Knicks that eliminated the Pippen-led Bulls.

[Axe]

MJ is far from the consensus GOAT
Your hero lost in the 2011 finals. Don't be a retard.

[expansionera]

Your hero lost in the 2011 finals. Don't be a retard.

Losing in the first round without Pippen every year is much better m8?

[Axe]

Losing in the first round without Pippen every year is much better m8?
Well sort of, if you aren't the heavy favorite in the finals. Anyway, i guess basketball is an individual sport after all.

[iamgine]

One could probably argue Havlicek was the number one guy for two of the championships with Russell and the one with Cowens and White.



One could, although I think most people will think Russell and Cowens were the most important player.

And that still leaves only 4 chips.

[3ba11]

Jordan teams were most stacked ever compared to his rivals.





^^^ If this was true, why is did MJ need to achieve goat stats to win (goat PPG, goat PER, goat BPM, GOAT VORP, GOAT WS/48)

The reality is that the Bulls won 2 chips with less all-stars than the opponent (93', 96'), while the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17 in the Finals - Magic had more good players in his cast, so MJ had to outscore him by a lot and nearly match the goat passer in assists.

And Drexler made the 1990 Finals with Jerome Kersey leading the Blazers in scoring for the Western Playoffs - that's how stacked they were - the 92' Blazers had better defensive ranking than the Bulls and far more scoring options..

Infact, the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had nearly-equal defensive ranking and FAR more scoring options.. Only the Jazz didn't have more talent then the Bulls, but they had a long-term organic brand that demolished Popovich/Duncan and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers

[Stephonit]

One could, although I think most people will think Russell and Cowens were the most important player.

And that still leaves only 4 chips.

When was Pippen arguably the number one player on a championship Bulls team?

Did the Bulls ever take down a team led by the likes of West, Chamberlain, and Baylor while Pippen was at the helm?

Havlicek was the second or third guy on the Celtics before 1968. Even when arguably 4th or 5th guy that would only be in the playoffs where the minutes didn't differ that much and he had the second most minutes during the regular season.

Havlicek had more success playing with Russell and playing without Russell than Pippen did playing with and without Jordan. Havlicek played with Cowens and Jo Jo White. Pippen played with Hakeem and Barkley.

[Axe]

^^^ If this was true, why is did MJ need to achieve goat stats to win (goat PPG, goat PER, goat BPM, GOAT VORP, GOAT WS/48)

The reality is that the Bulls won 2 chips with less all-stars than the opponent (93', 96'), while the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17 in the Finals - Magic had more good players in his cast, so MJ had to outscore him by a lot and nearly match the goat passer in assists.

And Drexler made the 1990 Finals with Jerome Kersey leading the Blazers in scoring for the Western Playoffs - that's how stacked they were - the 92' Blazers had better defensive ranking than the Bulls and far more scoring options..

Infact, the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had nearly-equal defensive ranking and FAR more scoring options.. Only the Jazz didn't have more talent then the Bulls, but they had a long-term organic brand that demolished Popovich/Duncan and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers
1-9

[iamgine]

When was Pippen arguably the number one player on a championship Bulls team?

Did the Bulls ever take down a team led by the likes of West, Chamberlain, and Baylor while Pippen was at the helm?

Havlicek was the second or third guy on the Celtics before 1968. Even when arguably 4th or 5th guy that would only be in the playoffs where the minutes didn't differ that much and he had the second most minutes during the regular season.

Havlicek had more success playing with Russell and playing without Russell than Pippen did playing with and without Jordan. Havlicek played with Cowens and Jo Jo White. Pippen played with Hakeem and Barkley.

MVP candidate Cowens. VS old Hakeem & Barkley.

lol logic.

[Stephonit]

MVP candidate Cowens. VS old Hakeem & Barkley.

lol logic.

When the Celtics took down Wilt, Jerry, and Elgin, Havlicek was playing with a 34 year old Russell and 35 year old Sam Jones as his main offensive support.

Which reminds me Sam Jones is grossly overlooked in these kinds of discussions. Maybe he should be listed ahead of Pippen as well.

[mr4speed]

When the Celtics took down Wilt, Jerry, and Elgin, Havlicek was playing with a 34 year old Russell and 35 year old Sam Jones as his main offensive support.

Which reminds me Sam Jones is grossly overlooked in these kinds of discussions. Maybe he should be listed ahead of Pippen as well.

Great point. Sam Jones won 10 rings with Boston and Russell has said that when the Celtics really needed a basket Sam Jones was the guy who repeatedly delivered.

[Sulico]

^^^ If this was true, why is did MJ need to achieve goat stats to win (goat PPG, goat PER, goat BPM, GOAT VORP, GOAT WS/48)

The reality is that the Bulls won 2 chips with less all-stars than the opponent (93', 96'), while the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17 in the Finals - Magic had more good players in his cast, so MJ had to outscore him by a lot and nearly match the goat passer in assists.

And Drexler made the 1990 Finals with Jerome Kersey leading the Blazers in scoring for the Western Playoffs - that's how stacked they were - the 92' Blazers had better defensive ranking than the Bulls and far more scoring options..

Infact, the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had nearly-equal defensive ranking and FAR more scoring options.. Only the Jazz didn't have more talent then the Bulls, but they had a long-term organic brand that demolished Popovich/Duncan and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers

Get the hell out of here with your BS.

Jordan was on team with 3 or 4 hall of famers at all times in the 90's.

After he left, his team was 3rd seed, won 2 games less than 1st seed. And after he returned and lost in the 2nd round, they immediately added another HOF player to their roster.

[Pointguard]

Yet none of them had the good fortune of being on a team with proven experienced players from start to end of his prime than Magic. Magic was playing with at least a top 50 player during each of his runs. His signature years were what? 1987? 1988? 1991? Walked through one of the easiest draws ever in 1987. Barely edged out the Pistons in 1988. Made the finals in 1991. Looks like a solid top 20 player to me. But top 5? No. Where are the records? Where is the eyebrow-raising performance or dominance?

You know Lakers had that team before Magic's arrival and they weren't killing it. I think only one year did a team Magic was on shot less than 500 percent from the field. One year they shot 545 from the field,, its a joke to compare that to another championship team. Obviously you don't know what dominance is? His team rarely missed for the whole year. He had one of the best close out games in the history of the sport his rookie year. Magic beat more dominant teams than any other player:One could argue Kareem but he wasn't a great winner until Magic came.

[iamgine]

When the Celtics took down Wilt, Jerry, and Elgin, Havlicek was playing with a 34 year old Russell and 35 year old Sam Jones as his main offensive support.

Which reminds me Sam Jones is grossly overlooked in these kinds of discussions. Maybe he should be listed ahead of Pippen as well.

34 year old Russell was still MVP candidate.

[expansionera]

When the Celtics took down Wilt, Jerry, and Elgin, Havlicek was playing with a 34 year old Russell and 35 year old Sam Jones as his main offensive support.

Which reminds me Sam Jones is grossly overlooked in these kinds of discussions. Maybe he should be listed ahead of Pippen as well.

I’ve never seen Sam Jones incorporated in a top 25-50 list, which is crazy given Iverson, Stockton and Nash are frequent staples. Same goes for Dave a Cowens, there’s probably just too much basketball and no one compiling list has watched enough of it to tell the entire story properly.

[dankok8]

Havlicek should be comfortably ahead of Pippen on the all-time list. Better player in his prime (won at least 1 title as best player) and better longevity by far.

[2much_knowledge]

MJ is far from the consensus GOAT

In forums? Lol

Players poll? Over 75% of votes
Every damn list? Always on top
Voted athlete of the century? I remember that one

Sometimes wins in polls against the other sports goats.

Seems pretty consensus to me