Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #22

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - NOW VOTING

Top 25 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

David Robinson - 3 (RRR3, Magic is Magic, TheCorporation)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
Elgin Baylor - 2 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
Scottie Pippen - 1 (Ryoka Narusawa)
James Harden - 1 (000)

[dankok8]

I will vote for Dwyane Wade. I think at his peak he is the best remaining player with the exception of maybe Robinson. And for all his injuries he still ended up with pretty decent longevity as well.

[L.Kizzle]

I will vote for Dwyane Wade. I think at his peak he is the best remaining player with the exception of maybe Robinson. And for all his injuries he still ended up with pretty decent longevity as well.
You think he peak was better than Elgin Baylor's?
His peak was 38/19/5. 2nd best season 35/20/5.

[Phoenix]

You think he peak was better than Elgin Baylor's?
His peak was 38/19/5. 2nd best season 35/20/5.

By that reckoning the conversation for GOAT would begin and end with Wilt. I would assume we're trying to apply some context to those numbers.

[Phoenix]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/63/4f/00/634f006774763341bee237fda4e48c80.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

D-Rob

[SouBeachTalents]

You think he peak was better than Elgin Baylor's?
His peak was 38/19/5. 2nd best season 35/20/5.
If you apply zero context to those numbers then sure

[L.Kizzle]

If you apply zero context to those numbers then sure
Zero context ... I mean this is Elgin Baylor doin this not Ricky Davis.

Here is some context, only other player putting up these numbers was Wilt Chamberlain. That's it.
Also did it while serving in the military. Also, led team to Finals as well.

[Phoenix]

Zero context ... I mean this is Elgin Baylor doin this not Ricky Davis.

Here is some context, only other player putting up these numbers was Wilt Chamberlain. That's it.
Also did it while serving in the military. Also, led team to Finals as well.

Russell was grabbing 24 boards. Wilt was dropping 50/25. Pettit was 28/20. Oscar was doing 30 triple doubles. This was the era for the elites to be dropping NBA 2k numbers. If we're going to play the numbers game then Elgin should have been in the top 5.

[L.Kizzle]

Russell was grabbing 24 boards. Wilt was dropping 50/25. Pettit was 28/20. Oscar was doing 30 triple doubles. This was the era for the elites to be dropping NBA 2k numbers. If we're going to play the numbers game then Elgin should have been in the top 5.
Elgin didn't win titles or MVPs is the only reason he not in the top 15ish. He def should be here tho.
And it's not just about numbers. Hell, Walt Bellamy was doin 30/20 as well. But he was no where near the player any of these guy mentioned were.
Also Elgin was gettin 20 boards as a 6'5 wing tho. Pettit, Russell and Wilt are big men.

[gonzaldo]

Giannis

He is roughly halfway through his career and has 2 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 defender of the year - if the second part of the career is as good as the first one we are talking about arguably a top 10 player, so now he has to be around top 25 even if he stops playing.

[Phoenix]

Elgin didn't win titles or MVPs is the only reason he not in the top 15ish. He def should be here tho.
And it's not just about numbers. Hell, Walt Bellamy was doin 30/20 as well. But he was no where near the player any of these guy mentioned were.
Also Elgin was gettin 20 boards as a 6'5 wing tho. Pettit, Russell and Wilt are big men.

Ok, but if it's not just about the numbers you initially made it about the numbers when you said 'well Elgin peaked at 38/19/5,35/20', hence the replies you got concerning context. You still haven't said why he's better than Wade beyond 'look at the numbers'.

[SaintzFury13]

Zero context ... I mean this is Elgin Baylor doin this not Ricky Davis.

Here is some context, only other player putting up these numbers was Wilt Chamberlain. That's it.
Also did it while serving in the military. Also, led team to Finals as well.

And yet he never won an NBA finals in his life. He had stacked teams time and time again and couldn't get the job done. He was basically the Kevin Love of his era. He put up empty stats that had little impact on his teams ability to win. Actually no, I take that back. Kevin Love is at least a very skilled player. Elgin Baylor was just a freak athlete and a perfect example of someone who benefited from the era of which they played in. You put guys like Chamberlin, Russell, West, and a few of the other all time greats from that era in todays game and they are still most likely going to be all star or even superstar caliber players. Elgin Baylor would be nothing special in todays game.

[L.Kizzle]

Ok, but if it's not just about the numbers you initially made it about the numbers when you said 'well Elgin peaked at 38/19/5,35/20', hence the replies you got concerning context. You still haven't said why he's better than Wade beyond 'look at the numbers'.
He had a better impact on the game. He took his team to the Finals as a rookie. I believe he has 11 All NBA Teams (all 11 are first team selections.)
He was the man on the Lakers until his knee injury in 64 and even after that was still the best forward in the game probably until his next injury in the 70s that ultimately led to his retirement.

[SaintzFury13]

In regards to this list, I gotta go with David Robinson.

[SaintzFury13]

He had a better impact on the game. He took his team to the Finals as a rookie. I believe he has 11 All NBA Teams (all 11 are first team selections.)
He was the man on the Lakers until his knee injury in 64 and even after that was still the best forward in the game probably until his next injury in the 70s that ultimately led to his retirement.

Okay, now explain what he did as a PLAYER to deserve being ranked above someone like Wade without using numbers.

That is why Elgin Baylor is arguably the most overrated player in the history of the game.

[Thenameless]

David Robinson

[L.Kizzle]

And yet he never won an NBA finals in his life. He had stacked teams time and time again and couldn't get the job done. He was basically the Kevin Love of his era. He put up empty stats that had little impact on his teams ability to win. Actually no, I take that back. Kevin Love is at least a very skilled player. Elgin Baylor was just a freak athlete and a perfect example of someone who benefited from the era of which they played in. You put guys like Chamberlin, Russell, West, and a few of the other all time greats from that era in todays game and they are still most likely going to be all star or even superstar caliber players. Elgin Baylor would be nothing special in todays game.
Kevin Love. Did Love even lead his team to to the playoffs in Minny?
Meanwhile a rookie Baylor (remember, no West yet) leads his team to the 1959 NBA Finals.
Baylor came out a year before Wilt, so he had some of the records Wilt later broke.

[L.Kizzle]

Okay, now explain what he did as a PLAYER to deserve being ranked above someone like Wade without using numbers.

That is why Elgin Baylor is arguably the most overrated player in the history of the game.
Explain how Wade is better than Baylor with using championships? Same difference.
Baylor proved in his rookie season (no West) by taking Lakers to the Finals. He proved it wasn't a fluke by goin to the Finals 7 other times. Also proved it wasn't a fluke by scoring 61 points in a Finals game (still a record to this day.)

[NBAGOAT]

Robinson.

[Manny98]

David Robinson

[Phoenix]

Explain how Wade is better than Baylor with using championships? Same difference.
Baylor proved in his rookie season (no West) by taking Lakers to the Finals. He proved it wasn't a fluke by goin to the Finals 7 other times. Also proved it wasn't a fluke by scoring 61 points in a Finals game (still a record to this day.)

Championships would be a reasonable difference maker for two guys that were generally in the same ballpark of individual achievement otherwise. Elgin has 10 all-NBA, Wade 8 time. Wade has a scoring title, zero for Elgin. Discussing numbers is irrelevant for two guys separated by 50 years. Both of them did great things. Wade won a finals MVP which is arguably the most important achievement if we want to bullet-point what they each did. Frankly I don't know how you actually begin to compare them, because the other poster said to compare the two without numbers, and you retorted compare without chips. That sort of thing can go on forever.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The list is officially a joke if David Robinson makes it before kawhi.

That's classic case of playoff alpha vs playoff beta

[L.Kizzle]

Championships would be a reasonable difference maker for two guys that were generally in the same ballpark of individual achievement otherwise. Elgin has 10 all-NBA, Wade 8 time. Wade has a scoring title, zero for Elgin. Discussing numbers is irrelevant for two guys separated by 50 years. Both of them did great things. Wade won a finals MVP which is arguably the most important achievement if we want to bullet-point what they each did. Frankly I don't know how you actually begin to compare them, because the other poster said to compare the two without numbers, and you retorted compare without chips. That sort of thing can go on forever.
A guy with no title (8 Finals loses), no MVP, no stats leader what else is there to use to compare them with? Everything I throw out will be hit with the championships and Finals MVPs.

Here is a good one, Baylor was All NBA team 10 times. All ten times were 1st team selections. Wade was 1st team only twice.

Baylor led the playoffs in scoring four different seasons. 40+ points avg in the 1962 Finals.
Baylor was top five in MVP voting 8 times, Wade only top five twice. Led the playoffs in voting once.

[Phoenix]

A guy with no title (8 Finals loses), no MVP, no stats leader what else is there to use to compare them with? Everything I throw out will be hit with the championships and Finals MVPs.

Here is a good one, Baylor was All NBA team 10 times. All ten times were 1st team selections. Wade was 1st team only twice.

Baylor led the playoffs in scoring four different seasons. 40+ points avg in the 1962 Finals.
Baylor was top five in MVP voting 8 times, Wade only top five twice. Led the playoffs in voting once.

Exactly, so that's a circular argument. Nobody has yet to make an oncourt argument for who is better other than a checkbox of circumstantial achievements. I'm not going to pretend like I'm capable of making one here, and to be clear I actually haven't argued Wade is better or worse. You are planting your flag on Baylor, so I'm asking for your reasoning.

Wade was 1st team twice but it was either him or Kobe. Not sure that's much of a metric either but to be perfectly frank, I don't really think situations like this are all that comparable but I've noticed you tend to trend towards the older player.

[RRR3]

The list is officially a joke if David Robinson makes it before kawhi.

That's classic case of playoff alpha vs playoff beta
Choking to 7’1 Windhorst so alpha.

[Phoenix]

The list is officially a joke if David Robinson makes it before kawhi.

That's classic case of playoff alpha vs playoff beta

Kawhit will be lucky if he gets voted 30th. Start making some more alts so someone other you and KawhiLeonard will vote for him.

[SaintzFury13]

Kevin Love. Did Love even lead his team to to the playoffs in Minny?
Meanwhile a rookie Baylor (remember, no West yet) leads his team to the 1959 NBA Finals.
Baylor came out a year before Wilt, so he had some of the records Wilt later broke.

That's the best retort you have? Comparing eras where one person had a lot less competition to deal with than Kevin Love did?

And that accomplishment means very little because guess what? Even with Jerry West AND eventually Wilt Chamberlin, he still couldn't win a title.

Again, you need to explain what Baylor did as a player that was so special. And guess what? You can't, because he wasn't special as a player. Bill Russell had unbelievable defensive instincts while being the perfect team player within a system that was based around his talent. Wilt Chamberlin was a once in a generation athletic freak who was unbelievably skilled, so skilled in fact that he was even helping run the offense.

All Baylor did was grab a lot of rebounds (which was very easy to do back then if you were athletic and one of the stronger players like Baylor was) and scored at an incredibly inefficient rate. In his famous 38 PPG season, his FG% was 42%. 42%.

Just no. He's not anything special.

[SaintzFury13]

A guy with no title (8 Finals loses), no MVP, no stats leader what else is there to use to compare them with? Everything I throw out will be hit with the championships and Finals MVPs.

Here is a good one, Baylor was All NBA team 10 times. All ten times were 1st team selections. Wade was 1st team only twice.

Baylor led the playoffs in scoring four different seasons. 40+ points avg in the 1962 Finals.
Baylor was top five in MVP voting 8 times, Wade only top five twice. Led the playoffs in voting once.

Buddy, there were only 8 teams at the time.

Once again, you are naming his accolades and/or stats and aren't even bothering taking context into account. Again, we ask, what was so special about Baylor as a player? I guarantee you that you will not be able to come up with a single answer to that.

[L.Kizzle]

Exactly, so that's a circular argument. Nobody has yet to make an oncourt argument for who is better other than a checkbox of circumstantial achievements. I'm not going to pretend like I'm capable of making one here, and to be clear I actually haven't argued Wade is better or worse. You are planting your flag on Baylor, so I'm asking for your reasoning.

Wade was 1st team twice but it was either him or Kobe. Not sure that's much of a metric either but to be perfectly frank, I don't really think situations like this are all that comparable but I've noticed you tend to trend towards the older player.
Wade's two All-NBA 1st team selections are with Kobe. He's lost 1st team selections to Nash, Iverson, Paul, Derrick Rose, Harden, Curry and Westbrook.
Baylor was All-NBA first team every year (besides the seasons where he was obviously injured.)

He WAS the best forward for a ten year stretch (out of all forwards, small and power.)

[Dbrog]

The list is officially a joke if David Robinson makes it before kawhi.

That's classic case of playoff alpha vs playoff beta

Any list with Bron at #2 is a joke so I guess I'll make it more of one.

My pick is Kawhi Leonard

[SaintzFury13]

Explain how Wade is better than Baylor with using championships? Same difference.

Okay.

Wade is a better player on both ends of the floor. On top of being a far more efficient offensive player with better skills, he is capable of running the offense while Baylor isn't. And defensively it's not even close. Wade is far better in just about every aspect on the defensive end of the floor. And on top of all of this, Wade in his prime is more athletic. If you put Wade in Baylor's place in that era, he not only accomplishes a lot more (like, you know, winning a championship), he puts up better stats on much better efficiency.

Of course, these are different eras we are comparing. But that's what happens when you try to compare a player whose skillset and style of play doesn't translate very well to today's game. All those insane rebounding numbers? Gone. His PPG average? Significantly worse if he played in today's era. Compare that to someone like Jerry West, who I have no problem believing would still be an all star caliber player in todays game because his style of play would translate well and he has the skillset to make it work. Baylor doesn't.

[Phoenix]

Wade's two All-NBA 1st team selections are with Kobe. He's lost 1st team selections to Nash, Iverson, Paul, Derrick Rose, Harden, Curry and Westbrook.
Baylor was All-NBA first team every year (besides the seasons where he was obviously injured.)

He WAS the best forward for a ten year stretch (out of all forwards, small and power.)

And he was better than Nash, Paul, Rose, and Paul peak for peak, so clearly they were picking Kobe as the SG and going with a PG for the other choice. By the time Harden, Curry and Westbrook hit their stride he was on the back-nine. No guard in the NBA had any argument for being par or better than a healthy Wade between 2005 and 2011 than Kobe.

[1987_Lakers]

David Robinson

[L.Kizzle]

Okay.

Wade is a better player on both ends of the floor. On top of being a far more efficient offensive player with better skills, he is capable of running the offense while Baylor isn't. And defensively it's not even close. Wade is far better in just about every aspect on the defensive end of the floor. And on top of all of this, Wade in his prime is more athletic. If you put Wade in Baylor's place in that era, he not only accomplishes a lot more (like, you know, winning a championship), he puts up better stats on much better efficiency.

Of course, these are different eras we are comparing. But that's what happens when you try to compare a player whose skillset and style of play doesn't translate very well to today's game. All those insane rebounding numbers? Gone. His PPG average? Significantly worse if he played in today's era. Compare that to someone like Jerry West, who I have no problem believing would still be an all star caliber player in todays game because his style of play would translate well and he has the skillset to make it work. Baylor doesn't.
I will not disagree with anything you said other than Baylor's game would definitely translate to today's NBA. He was the most athletic wing until Julius came along. Just think of Zion Williamson that would be Baylor today.

Also, Baylor has more top 5 PER finishes then Wade.
And It's hard to tell Baylor's defensive game. He obviously wasn't Russell but he definitely wasn't bad. He has a few top ten defensive win shares. There were no steals or blocks kept. But with someone of his ability he probably be on defensive teams if they had them during his day.

Also, Wade without Shaq or LeBron .... not doing to well.
Baylor without West (and with his lesser skills compared to Wade) can take his team to the NBA Finals.
Wade can only dream of doing that.

[L.Kizzle]

And he was better than Nash, Paul, Rose, and Paul peak for peak, so clearly they were picking Kobe as the SG and going with a PG for the other choice. By the time Harden, Curry and Westbrook hit their stride he was on the back-nine. No guard in the NBA had any argument for being par or better than a healthy Wade between 2005 and 2011 than Kobe.
All NBA Teams are just guards tho. It's not one PG and one SG. It's the 2 best guards for a given season.
McGrady and Kobe made it together on the 1st team a few times.
Wade was on the 2nd and 3rd teams more than he was on the 1st teams.

[RRR3]

Any list with Bron at #2 is a joke so I guess I'll make it more of one.

My pick is Kawhi Leonard
Meltdown.

[dankok8]

You think he peak was better than Elgin Baylor's?
His peak was 38/19/5. 2nd best season 35/20/5.

Baylor is up there too. Actually I see a lot of parallels between him and Wade. Both athletic and really dominant perimeter players who had short primes due to injury. Wade also would be ringless if he faced Russell's Celtics so rings aren't a great argument for Wade. Yea I can see Baylor... He used to be a top 20 staple until the new gen including KD and Curry leaped over him. There's also this misconception that Baylor was inefficient but his TS% is actually above league average most of the time. It only makes sense to compare players relative to their own eras. Baylor was just unlucky to peak in the same era as Russell, Wilt and Oscar.

[dankok8]

By the way it's a bit early to vote for Kawhi. He only had 4-5 prime seasons as great as he is. He can be around #30 or so.

[RRR3]

By the way it's a bit early to vote for Kawhi. He only had 4-5 prime seasons as great as he is. He can be around #30 or so.
That’s still too high for him lol. How much longer is this one up? Looks like D Rob will win. I’m ready to vote for my guy Wade.

[Phoenix]

All NBA Teams are just guards tho. It's not one PG and one SG. It's the 2 best guards for a given season.
McGrady and Kobe made it together on the 1st team a few times.
Wade was on the 2nd and 3rd teams more than he was on the 1st teams.

I know what they are. And as I said, Wade was better than those players in some of those years so it seems they were trying to pick a PG and Kobe in some cases, unless you're trying to argue that Nash in 06 was better than Wade. Or 09 CP3 was better than 09 Wade. I don't know what voting logic was used but there's no way in hell Wade in 06 and 09 wasn't a legit first teamer, and would have been in 07 without getting injured. But competition at the guard spot in the 2000's makes trying to compare Elgin getting first team nods at forward 50 years earlier......again.....not really apples to apples and I'm sure you know that.

[Phoenix]

Baylor is up there too. Actually I see a lot of parallels between him and Wade. Both athletic and really dominant perimeter players who had short primes due to injury. Wade also would be ringless if he faced Russell's Celtics so rings aren't a great argument for Wade. Yea I can see Baylor... He used to be a top 20 staple until the new gen including KD and Curry leaped over him. There's also this misconception that Baylor was inefficient but his TS% is actually above league average most of the time. It only makes sense to compare players relative to their own eras. Baylor was just unlucky to peak in the same era as Russell, Wilt and Oscar.

Which makes drawing number parallels between a 60s star and a 2000s star impractical as was happening earlier. Even comparing things like all-nba nods. Baylor was competing in an 8 team league. The 2000's was a gauntlet for guards.

[L.Kizzle]

I know what they are. And as I said, Wade was better than those players in some of those years so it seems they were trying to pick a PG and Kobe in some cases, unless you're trying to argue that Nash in 06 was better than Wade. Or 09 CP3 was better than 09 Wade. I don't know what voting logic was used but there's no way in hell Wade in 06 and 09 wasn't a legit first teamer, and would have been in 07 without getting injured. But competition at the guard spot in the 2000's makes trying to compare Elgin getting first team nods at forward 50 years earlier......again.....not really apples to apples and I'm sure you know that.
06 Nash has MVP so not hard to argue with that. Of course you'll back that with "well Wade won Finals MVP when it counted" and deservedly so.
Guard comp in the 2000s was nothing to glance at. But the F spot in the 60s is severely underrated as well. You have John Havlicek (who's already gotten some votes) Rick Barry. All guys who should be voted in the next 10-15 spots.

[Phoenix]

06 Nash has MVP so not hard to argue with that. Of course you'll back that with "well Wade won Finals MVP when it counted" and deservedly so.
Guard comp in the 2000s was nothing to glance at. But the F spot in the 60s is severely underrated as well. You have John Havlicek (who's already gotten some votes) Rick Barry. All guys who should be voted in the next 10-15 spots.

If you look at the players that year.....Kobe dropping 35, Wade, Garnett, Duncan, Dirk, Lebron, all top tier MVP talent..... I guess if Nash was considered MVP over that crop, Wade didn't have much chance being voted over him on the all-nba team.

[Dbrog]

Meltdown.

Meltdown.

[Chick Stern]

It’s Elgin

[TheCorporation]

Choking to 7’1 Windhorst so alpha.

:roll:


Shuttem down!!! :lol

[dankok8]

Which makes drawing number parallels between a 60s star and a 2000s star impractical as was happening earlier. Even comparing things like all-nba nods. Baylor was competing in an 8 team league. The 2000's was a gauntlet for guards.

Eight-team league isn't a great argument against Baylor. If the league has more teams, players that can't make the NBA suddenly start appearing on NBA rosters. If the 2000's NBA had eight teams it would actually be harder because Wade would be facing Kobe like ten times per season instead of twice.

[hold this L]

The list is officially a joke if David Robinson makes it before kawhi.

That's classic case of playoff alpha vs playoff beta

You're going to have to make some more alts if you want the load management fraud to undeservedly make it anytime soon.

[SouBeachTalents]

Any list with Bron at #2 is a joke so I guess I'll make it more of one.

My pick is Kawhi Leonard
Every single list has LeBron at #2 :oldlol:

[SaintzFury13]

I will not disagree with anything you said other than Baylor's game would definitely translate to today's NBA. He was the most athletic wing until Julius came along. Just think of Zion Williamson that would be Baylor today.

Yes, but as I said before, if he plays in today's era, you are immediately taking away one of the key aspects of why he's considered an all time great in the first place and that's his rebounding. And on top of that, he's not putting up those same scoring numbers.


Also, Baylor has more top 5 PER finishes then Wade.

Again, the man played in an era with 8 teams. That's not difficult.


And It's hard to tell Baylor's defensive game. He obviously wasn't Russell but he definitely wasn't bad. He has a few top ten defensive win shares. There were no steals or blocks kept. But with someone of his ability he probably be on defensive teams if they had them during his day.

Based on the extremely limited footage, Baylor was not anything special defensively. And according to Wilt, he had very little interest in focusing on that end of the court.

In other words, I seriously doubt he would have made any all defensive teams. And he most certainly wouldn't have made them today. If anything he'd probably be a liability at that end.


Also, Wade without Shaq or LeBron .... not doing to well.
Baylor without West (and with his lesser skills compared to Wade) can take his team to the NBA Finals.
Wade can only dream of doing that.

Buddy, this is the, what, fourth time now you have ignored context? Stop it.

Baylor played in an 8 league team. That is significantly easier than what Wade played in. Don't even try to pass this off as a logical point. It's not.

[Phoenix]

Eight-team league isn't a great argument against Baylor. If the league has more teams, players that can't make the NBA suddenly start appearing on NBA rosters. If the 2000's NBA had eight teams it would actually be harder because Wade would be facing Kobe like ten times per season instead of twice.

But do we look at Baylor's era as a peak period for forwards? Because Wade was undoubtedly competing in an extremely competitive period for guards. It would be like getting voted first team at center in the 80s/90s.....that meant something because the decade was packed with hall of fame level bigs.

[Phoenix]

I count 10 votes for the Admiral, nobody else is really in the ballpark. Issa wrap....

[RRR3]

I count 10 votes for the Admiral, nobody else is really in the ballpark. Issa wrap....
Next up, Wade and more sniveling from HBK_Brick

[L.Kizzle]

Yes, but as I said before, if he plays in today's era, you are immediately taking away one of the key aspects of why he's considered an all time great in the first place and that's his rebounding. And on top of that, he's not putting up those same scoring numbers.



Again, the man played in an era with 8 teams. That's not difficult.



Based on the extremely limited footage, Baylor was not anything special defensively. And according to Wilt, he had very little interest in focusing on that end of the court.

In other words, I seriously doubt he would have made any all defensive teams. And he most certainly wouldn't have made them today. If anything he'd probably be a liability at that end.



Buddy, this is the, what, fourth time now you have ignored context? Stop it.

Baylor played in an 8 league team. That is significantly easier than what Wade played in. Don't even try to pass this off as a logical point. It's not.
He played in an 8 team league. That's not a knock, thats the amount ot teams. He can't help that.

And Wilt is definitely talking about when he joined the Lakers when Elgin was literally on his last legs.

Someone made a mock All defensive teams back in the 50s and 60 when there were non ande e routinely made them up into his injury.

Can't find the threat tho. Was called All Defense Teams from 55 to 68.

[dankok8]

But do we look at Baylor's era as a peak period for forwards? Because Wade was undoubtedly competing in an extremely competitive period for guards. It would be like getting voted first team at center in the 80s/90s.....that meant something because the decade was packed with hall of fame level bigs.

Well that's a different argument altogether. As the league got more competitive in the mid and late 60's Baylor also lost a step due to injuries but was still making 1st Team All-NBA every year. I don't know...

[RRR3]

Well that's a different argument altogether. As the league got more competitive in the mid and late 60's Baylor also lost a step due to injuries but was still making 1st Team All-NBA every year. I don't know...
Make the next thread already plz

[Phoenix]

Make the next thread already plz

Yeah the last vote was last night. Admiral #22, moving on.....

[AussieSteve]

The list is officially a joke if David Robinson makes it before kawhi.

That's classic case of playoff alpha vs playoff beta

Get used to it. We'll be waiting a while yet before Kawhi appears on this list.

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

David Robinson - 10 (RRR3, Magic is Magic, TheCorporation, Phoenix, SouBeachTalents, SaintzFury13, Thenameless, NBAGOAT, Manny98, 1987_Lakers)
Elgin Baylor - 3 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
Scottie Pippen - 1 (Ryoka Narusawa)
Dwyane Wade - 1 (dankok8)
James Harden - 1 (000)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (gonzaldo)

Robinson wins. Thread #23 is open.