Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - NOW VOTING

Top 25 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Elgin Baylor - 3 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
Scottie Pippen - 1 (Ryoka Narusawa)
Dwyane Wade - 1 (dankok8)
James Harden - 1 (000)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (gonzaldo)

[Manny98]

Wade

[SouBeachTalents]

My vote, somebody who I think is going to be extremely underrated in this ranking

Bob Pettit

2x MVP
10x All-NBA First Team (11 overall)
8 top 5 MVP finishes
2x scoring champ
Led one of only two teams to ever beat Russell's Celtics, dropping 50 in the clincher

I understand he did this in the late 50's/early 60's, an era a lot of people here would consider weak, but when you combine his production and resume, I think he's got the best argument for this spot.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

My vote, somebody who I think is going to be extremely underrated in this ranking

Bob Pettit

2x MVP
10x All-NBA First Team (11 overall)
8 top 5 MVP finishes
2x scoring champ
Led one of only two teams to ever beat Russell's Celtics, dropping 50 in the clincher

I understand he did this in the late 50's/early 60's, an era a lot of people here would consider weak, but when you combine his production and resume, I think he's got the best argument for this spot.

He plays today actually, he just goes by Maxi Kleber in today's era.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFi3nKHs1Y

[Phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uRN7iJ5CqQ

Hint: it's not Anderson Varejao :lol

[RRR3]

Dwyane Wade.

[8Ball]

Scottie Pippen

[ELITEpower23]

Scottie Pippen

[LBJ]

Scottie Pippen

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Scottie Pippen


Scottie Pippen


Scottie Pippen

You keep your mouth SHUT. This entire list is getting sabotaged by lebron trolls (aka RRR3) just creating spam accounts and voting Pippen.

OP, do the right thing and put Leonard at #23. Also PUNISH the lebron fans don't allow Pippen inside top 30.

[RRR3]

You keep your mouth SHUT. This entire list is getting sabotaged by lebron trolls (aka RRR3) just creating spam accounts and voting Pippen.

OP, do the right thing and put Leonard at #23. Also PUNISH the lebron fans don't allow Pippen inside top 30.
I clearly voted for Wade you retard. My only other usable account is Sigmund Freud.

[Nike D'Antoni]

You keep your mouth SHUT. This entire list is getting sabotaged by lebron trolls (aka RRR3) just creating spam accounts and voting Pippen.

OP, do the right thing and put Leonard at #23. Also PUNISH the lebron fans don't allow Pippen inside top 30.

Duncan over Larry Bird and Kobe Bryant is a joke. Barkley over Pippen is a joke especially when someone values defense.
Elgin Baylor is way too low. Kawhi should be above Garnett, Dirk.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Also, where is Isaiah Thomas? Just take this list to the toilet.

[NBAGOAT]

wade, has the best peak imo of people left besides giannis. giannis' prime isnt nearly as long.

[8Ball]

You keep your mouth SHUT. This entire list is getting sabotaged by lebron trolls (aka RRR3) just creating spam accounts and voting Pippen.

OP, do the right thing and put Leonard at #23. Also PUNISH the lebron fans don't allow Pippen inside top 30.


Pippen is ranked even higher on ESPN lists.

[RRR3]

wade, has the best peak imo of people left besides giannis. giannis' prime isnt nearly as long.
Agreed. CP3 next :cheers:

[dankok8]

Can one of the mods definitively tell us which accounts are alts? They should have access to IP addresses...

It's ok for any reasonable person to vote and the list should reflect the forum population i.e. if the forum is full of Kawhi fans or something Kawhi can get this spot. But if a single person has 3-4 accounts and spams that obviously jeopardizes the list.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Can one of the mods definitively tell us which accounts are alts? They should have access to IP addresses...

It's ok for any reasonable person to vote and the list should reflect the forum population i.e. if the forum is full of Kawhi fans or something Kawhi can get this spot. But if a single person has 3-4 accounts and spams that obviously jeopardizes the list.

Honor boost and kawhileonard_2 are not me though at least so 3 is good for that spot

[RRR3]

Honor boost and kawhileonard_2 are not me though at least so 3 is good for that spot
Just don’t count Kawhi votes lol his longevity is horrible.

[1987_Lakers]

Pettit is a good mention, but I'm going with Wade.

[TheCorporation]

Dumb meltdown.

Scottie Pippen all the way

[Round Mound]

Wade

[Phoenix]

:basketball

[dankok8]

Current Vote Tally

Dwyane Wade - 6 (dankok8, Manny98, RRR3, NBAGOAT, 1987_Lakers, Round Mound)
Scottie Pippen - 5 (Ryoka Narusawa, 8Ball, ELITEpower23, Lbj, TheCorporation)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
Elgin Baylor - 3 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
James Harden - 1 (000)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (gonzaldo)
Bob Pettit - 1 (SouBeachTalents)

I think some of the Pippen votes are alts. User Lbj made a first vote on this thread. Either way if Pippen won it wouldn't be the end of the world but I don't think he deserves it over guys like Wade, Pettit, Giannis who were clear #1 guys/won multiple MVP's. Or Havlicek who won a FMVP (could have won as many as three with 68 and 69...), has way better longevity than Pippen and won 8 rings. Baylor didn't win rings but peaked higher than Pippen. I think Pippen starts having a real good case around #30 but that's just me.

[Phoenix]

Current Vote Tally

Dwyane Wade - 6 (dankok8, Manny98, RRR3, NBAGOAT, 1987_Lakers, Round Mound)
Scottie Pippen - 5 (Ryoka Narusawa, 8Ball, ELITEpower23, Lbj, TheCorporation)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
Elgin Baylor - 3 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
James Harden - 1 (000)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (gonzaldo)
Bob Pettit - 1 (SouBeachTalents)

I think some of the Pippen votes are alts. User Lbj made a first vote on this thread. Either way if Pippen won it wouldn't be the end of the world but I don't think he deserves it over guys like Wade, Pettit, Giannis who were clear #1 guys/won multiple MVP's. Or Havlicek who won a FMVP (could have won as many as three with 68 and 69...), has way better longevity than Pippen and won 8 rings. Baylor didn't win rings but peaked higher than Pippen. I think Pippen starts having a real good case around #30 but that's just me.

You didn't count my Wade vote in post #5.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uRN7iJ5CqQ

Hint: it's not Anderson Varejao :lol

That was intended as a Wade vote so he should have 7.

[SaintzFury13]

Scottie Pippen is not greater than Wade.

Come on now guys.

Dwayne Wade.

[SaintzFury13]

Also, where is Isaiah Thomas? Just take this list to the toilet.

Outside the top 20 where he belongs...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dan, you doing a top 50 or 25?

Haven't participated in a bit. I'll go D-Wade tho

[Phoenix]

Dan, you doing a top 50 or 25?

Haven't participated in a bit. I'll go D-Wade tho

I don't think most of the board is going to care about voting past like 30 lol. Numbers already seem to be dropping a bit.

[Airupthere]

My vote goes to elgin baylor.

Dankok, can you highlight or bold the names of currently active players on the list? Their ranking could still change, eg KD, Giannis, Curry, etc

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think most of the board is going to care about voting past like 30 lol. Numbers already seem to be dropping a bit.

You're not lying.

His OP is from a '25 player' talent pool, but the thread reads top 50.

[outofstomach]

Scottie Pippen

don’t count this one or LBJ’s please

obvious alt trolls

[outofstomach]

obviously Wade, pippen’s defense makes it mildly arguable but not overtly

[L.Kizzle]

You're not lying.

His OP is from a '25 player' talent pool, but the thread reads top 50.
You can only pick from that pool for now. When it gets deeper, the player pool will increase.

[dankok8]

The player pool has all top 50 candidates. I'll rename the pool to "Top 50" in the next thread.

And no you were never restricted to voting for certain players. You can vote for someone in the top 25 if they are not in the top 25 pool or vote for a top 50 player if they are not in the top 50 pool. The pool is just there so we don't forget about candidates.

[Nike D'Antoni]

What's the vote count?

Elgin is my vote. But if it's between Pippen & Wade, I change my vote to Pippen.

It's not right Elgin is so low.

[Nike D'Antoni]

if Kawhi is in the mix, count my vote for Kawhi.

I rather we make these votes two-way races.

Elgin
Kawhi
Pippen
Wade

my ranking. Depending on which two are contesting, pick my vote.

[Thenameless]

Elgin Baylor

A bit of a tragic end to a career, retiring due to injury the season he would have finally won a Championship, but his individual stats were incredible. In his prime and at his peak, definitely one of the best ever. A shame that he's so forgotten these days that he doesn't even get an honorable mention on a Lakers Mt. Rushmore.

[Phoenix]

What's the vote count?

Elgin is my vote. But if it's between Pippen & Wade, I change my vote to Pippen.

It's not right Elgin is so low.

I haven't counted everyone elses but Wade has 10

[nayte]

Wade for me

[SaintzFury13]

What's the vote count?

Elgin is my vote. But if it's between Pippen & Wade, I change my vote to Pippen.

It's not right Elgin is so low.

If anything Elgin is always ranked way too high. I don't understand why it's fine that George Mikan isn't getting ranked too high but for Elgin Baylor that's suddenly a problem. They both benefited greatly from the time frame that they played in and wouldn't be anything special in todays game.


Elgin Baylor

A bit of a tragic end to a career, retiring due to injury the season he would have finally won a Championship, but his individual stats were incredible. In his prime and at his peak, definitely one of the best ever. A shame that he's so forgotten these days that he doesn't even get an honorable mention on a Lakers Mt. Rushmore.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. "His individual stats were incredible". Yeah, no shit. He was a really great athlete who could actually shoot. A guy like that was going to dominate the game of basketball at the time. He was still very inefficient, wasn't a great defender and spent his entire career putting up empty stats.

[Phoenix]

Wade for me

That makes 11.....

[L.Kizzle]

If anything Elgin is always ranked way too high. I don't understand why it's fine that George Mikan isn't getting ranked too high but for Elgin Baylor that's suddenly a problem. They both benefited greatly from the time frame that they played in and wouldn't be anything special in todays game.



And this is exactly what I'm talking about. "His individual stats were incredible". Yeah, no shit. He was a really great athlete who could actually shoot. A guy like that was going to dominate the game of basketball at the time. He was still very inefficient, wasn't a great defender and spent his entire career putting up empty stats.
Mikan doesn't get ranked high because he played in the pre-shot clock era if anything. They didn't play in the same era. That's like saying Wilt played in the era with Mikan.

He wasn't efficient, he shot the league average. He was not a bad defender at all. When Wilt joined the Lakers, he was a shell if himself.
And he is not an empty stats player. A gut who is in the Finals damn near every season of his career is not putting up empty stats.
He was in the NBA Finals or West Finals every season except for one season in his career.

[Phoenix]

Wade got this :applause:

Next....

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Dwyane Wade - 11 (dankok8, Manny98, RRR3, NBAGOAT, 1987_Lakers, Round Mound, Phoenix, SaintzFury13, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, outofstomach, nayte)
Elgin Baylor - 5 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern, Airupthere, Thenameless)
Scottie Pippen - 5 (Ryoka Narusawa, 8Ball, ELITEpower23, Lbj, TheCorporation)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
Bob Pettit - 1 (SouBeachTalents)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
James Harden - 1 (000)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (gonzaldo)

Wade wins. Thread #24 is now open.

[SaintzFury13]

Mikan doesn't get ranked high because he played in the pre-shot clock era if anything. They didn't play in the same era. That's like saying Wilt played in the era with Mikan.

He wasn't efficient, he shot the league average. He was not a bad defender at all. When Wilt joined the Lakers, he was a shell if himself.
And he is not an empty stats player. A gut who is in the Finals damn near every season of his career is not putting up empty stats.
He was in the NBA Finals or West Finals every season except for one season in his career.

You have nothing to go off of to suggest that Elgin wasn't a bad defensive player. Defensive win shares, especially from that age, don't mean anything at all. LeBron still had good defensive win share stats in seasons where he straight up didn't play defense anymore. Guys like Jerry West and Hal Greer were well known for their defense. We never hear anything at all about Elgin's defense and there's probably a good reason for that.

And once again (because you continue to disregard this for whatever reason), he played in an eight team league. What part of that do you not understand? I don't care that he made the finals as many times as he did. The fact that he never won once, even with Jerry West and eventually Wilt Chamberlin, tells me he was an empty stats player. If you had a guy who was capable of putting up numbers, which Elgin Baylor was capable of, and you had a decent supporting cast, which he did, getting to the finals wasn't difficult. I'm not saying Elgin isn't an all time great. I still acknowledge that he deserves to be in the top 50, just like Mikan does. But if his stats and finals appearances are the only thing you have to justify him being placed this high on the list, then at this point it's time to concede, because there are still many other players who had a more profound impact on the game with more impressive stats and a much better skillset that haven't made the list yet.

[L.Kizzle]

You have nothing to go off of to suggest that Elgin wasn't a bad defensive player. Defensive win shares, especially from that age, don't mean anything at all. LeBron still had good defensive win share stats in seasons where he straight up didn't play defense anymore. Guys like Jerry West and Hal Greer were well known for their defense. We never hear anything at all about Elgin's defense and there's probably a good reason for that.

And once again (because you continue to disregard this for whatever reason), he played in an eight team league. What part of that do you not understand? I don't care that he made the finals as many times as he did. The fact that he never won once, even with Jerry West and eventually Wilt Chamberlin, tells me he was an empty stats player. If you had a guy who was capable of putting up numbers, which Elgin Baylor was capable of, and you had a decent supporting cast, which he did, getting to the finals wasn't difficult. I'm not saying Elgin isn't an all time great. I still acknowledge that he deserves to be in the top 50, just like Mikan does. But if his stats and finals appearances are the only thing you have to justify him being placed this high on the list, then at this point it's time to concede, because there are still many other players who had a more profound impact on the game with more impressive stats and a much better skillset that haven't made the list yet.
I've only heard he was a bad defense player in his final seasons.
And are you blaming those Finals loses on him and not West and Wilt. They were there too, and according to this list better than him.

He lost four game 7s in the Finals. His empty stats were literally a filed goal away from being a top 10 player possibly.

Lakers lost 62 Finals game 7 by 3 points.
Lakers lost 66 Finals game 7 by 2 points.
Lakers lost 69 Finals game 7 by 2 points.

[SaintzFury13]

I've only heard he was a bad defense player in his final seasons.
And are you blaming those Finals loses on him and not West and Wilt. They were there too, and according to this list better than him.

He lost four game 7s in the Finals. His empty stats were literally a filed goal away from being a top 10 player possibly.

Lakers lost 62 Finals game 7 by 3 points.
Lakers lost 66 Finals game 7 by 2 points.
Lakers lost 69 Finals game 7 by 2 points.

And yet Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlin were at least very skilled players who didn't benefit entirely from the era in which they played in. I don't want to hear it.

Although with that said... yeah Chamberlin definitely underperformed more than Baylor so I can't take that away.

[L.Kizzle]

And yet Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlin were at least very skilled players who didn't benefit entirely from the era in which they played in. I don't want to hear it.

Although with that said... yeah Chamberlin definitely underperformed more than Baylor so I can't take that away.
Now, I did look at those game 7 and he underperformed in the 69 one. Was himself in 66 (below his avg slightly) and great in 62.

With that said,, Baylor was very skilled and was doing shots no one was doing back then. No one was doing reverse lay ups and up and unders moves. Watch videos of him compared to West, Robertson and Sam Jones and Hal Greer. Those guys were text book. Baylor was doin a lot of unorthodox shots and movements when I watch film of him that those guys were not doin. Hell, Robertson didn't even dunk (I don't think so.) Not that he couldn't but he just never did. Dr J always said he grew up watching Baylors moves.

[SaintzFury13]

Now, I did look at those game 7 and he underperformed in the 69 one, badly. Was himself in 66 (below his avg slightly) and great in 62.

With that said,, Baylor was very skilled and was doing shots no one was doing back then. No one was doing reverse lay ups and up and unders moves. Watch videos of him compared to West, Robertson and Sam Jones and Hal Greer. Those guys were text book. Baylor was doin a lot of unorthodox shots and movements when I watch film of him that those guys were not doin. Hell, Robertson didn't even dunk (I don't think so.) Not that he couldn't but he just never did. Dr J always said he grew up watching Baylors moves.

I do recall Erving stating that Baylor was one of his biggest influences. Like I said before, Elgin is still a top 50 player. I've never stated otherwise. But I just don't think what he did was impressive enough to warrant him being this high on the all time great list. I always base whether or not someone is an all time great based on whether or not they would be able to have a similar type of impact in any other era that they play in. Again, Baylor's rebounding reduces drastically the moment you stick him in any other era because at that point the game changes drastically.

And in all fairness to Baylor, everyone on the Lakers outside of West underperformed badly in 69. Baylor wasn't by any means the main reason they lost.

[L.Kizzle]

I do recall Erving stating that Baylor was one of his biggest influences. Like I said before, Elgin is still a top 50 player. I've never stated otherwise. But I just don't think what he did was impressive enough to warrant him being this high on the all time great list. I always base whether or not someone is an all time great based on whether or not they would be able to have a similar type of impact in any other era that they play in. Again, Baylor's rebounding reduces drastically the moment you stick him in any other era because at that point the game changes drastically.

And in all fairness to Baylor, everyone on the Lakers outside of West underperformed badly in 69. Baylor wasn't by any means the main reason they lost.
Understood.
I tend to think Baylor would perform well in any era. He was athletic and quick. The most athletic swing of his era until Julius came along.
He was 6'5. I don't see how he couldn't pull down boards like Barkley could at the same height and less athletic ability.

And I don't mention the 8 team league because what is there to mention about. It was 8 teams, that's just how it was. And most of the time his team was 2 out of all the teams. To be fair, 9 teams by 61 and 14 by his last All-Star appereance in 1970 and 17 when he played his last game.

[SaintzFury13]

Understood.
I tend to think Baylor would perform well in any era. He was athletic and quick. The most athletic swing of his era until Julius came along.
He was 6'5. I don't see how he couldn't pull down boards like Barkley could at the same height and less athletic ability.

Because Barkley was a PF who played near the basket a lot on defense. Same with Dennis Rodman. This goes back to the "playing in different eras" argument that I am making. It's why I am not very impressed with Baylor's numbers like everyone else is.


And I don't mention the 8 team league because what is there to mention about. It was 8 teams, that's just how it was. And most of the time his team was 2 out of all the teams. To be fair, 9 teams by 61 and 14 by his last All-Star appereance in 1970 and 17 when he played his last game.

Yeah, and that by that point, he had Jerry West on his team and then when it got to 14, he had Wilt Chamberlin. When the league expanded, his team continued to get better, time and time again.

My stance on the matter is simply never going to change. A top 30 player? A very, VERY slight MAYBE. But anything beyond that, like top 25, just no.

[Phoenix]

Understood.
I tend to think Baylor would perform well in any era. He was athletic and quick. The most athletic swing of his era until Julius came along.
He was 6'5. I don't see how he couldn't pull down boards like Barkley could at the same height and less athletic ability.

And I don't mention the 8 team league because what is there to mention about. It was 8 teams, that's just how it was. And most of the time his team was 2 out of all the teams. To be fair, 9 teams by 61 and 14 by his last All-Star appereance in 1970 and 17 when he played his last game.

Honestly, the footage I see of Baylor doesn't lead me to believe he was more athletic than Barkley. Peak Sir Charles had like a 39" vertical with a quick 2nd jump and nose for the ball, and was one of the stronger players in the league. In the 61 season when Baylor averaged 20 boards the league shooting average was 42% on 109 attempts , in 87 when Barkley was grabbing 15 boards the league average was 48% on 89 attempts a game. Baylors era had 20 more shots a game while shooting the ball multitudes worse, there's just no way you can scale Baylor to like, 1990 and say oh yeah this guy is doing 12 boards a night. Not against all the bigs( including power forwards) of the period combined with improved efficiency( less missed shots available). I mean hell, Dennis Rodman would be grabbing 27 rebounds a night in a league taking 110 shots a game with low 40% percentage.

[L.Kizzle]

Because Barkley was a PF who played near the basket a lot on defense. Same with Dennis Rodman. This goes back to the "playing in different eras" argument that I am making. It's why I am not very impressed with Baylor's numbers like everyone else is.



Yeah, and that by that point, he had Jerry West on his team and then when it got to 14, he had Wilt Chamberlin. When the league expanded, his team continued to get better, time and time again.

My stance on the matter is simply never going to change. A top 30 player? A very, VERY slight MAYBE. But anything beyond that, like top 25, just no.
Not disagreeing with you but he was different. Havlicek, a SF as well was getting no where close to Elgin Baylor boards. His peak wouldn't even be Baylor's lowest.
I've heard people call him, not Wilt or Oscar or West or Russell the most important player of that era.
Importance in how the game evolved.
Every up and under shot and spin move in the air and dunking over a big man was Elgin Baylor.

[L.Kizzle]

Honestly, the footage I see of Baylor doesn't lead me to believe he was more athletic than Barkley. Peak Sir Charles had like a 39" vertical with a quick 2nd jump and nose for the ball, and was one of the stronger players in the league. In the 61 season when Baylor averaged 20 boards the league shooting average was 42% on 109 attempts , in 87 when Barkley was grabbing 15 boards the league average was 48% on 89 attempts a game. Baylors era had 20 more shots a game while shooting the ball multitudes worse, there's just no way you can scale Baylor to like, 1990 and say oh yeah this guy is doing 12 boards a night. Not against all the bigs( including power forwards) of the period combined with improved efficiency( less missed shots available). I mean hell, Dennis Rodman would be grabbing 27 rebounds a night in a league taking 110 shots a game with low 40% percentage.
Barkley is literally the only example you can use of a guy his height getting that many boards. It's not common in Baylor era or Chucks. Another name I thought about would be Larry Johnson. Zion or Adrian Dantley. High scorers but not the boards a Barkey or Elgin would get.

[Phoenix]

Barkley is literally the only example you can use of a guy his height getting that many boards. It's not common in Baylor era or Chucks. Another name I thought about would be Larry Johnson. Zion or Adrian Dantley. High scorers but not the boards a Barkey or Elgin would get.

No but comparatively speaking Barkley was more athletic based on what I've seen, he was more physically gifted ON-TOP of having the instincts for how the ball came off the rim and things of that nature. I'm not going to pretend like I know Baylor's game well enough to say if he had a similar nose, only that he played in an era where there were alot more rebounds available. That's an objective fact, an opinion would be whether his rebounding scales to Barkleys era. We simply don't know that.