Scottie Pippen vs Dwyane Wade

[Nike D'Antoni]

Who do you rate better as second fiddle to his 1st?
Wade to Lebron or Pippen to Jordan. And as well overall?


NBA Championships
Pippen 6
Wade 3

All Nba First Team
Pippen 3
Wade 2

All-NBA Teams
Wade 8
Pippen 7

Finals MVP
Wade 1
Pippen 0

All-Defensive 1st Team
Pippen 8
Wade 0

All-Defensive Teams
Pippen 10
Wade 3

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/scottie_pippen_vs_dwyane_wade.htm

[Nike D'Antoni]

From Quora, where I somehow stand



Conclusions

1. Wade is a better and more dominant scorer, and probably has an edge in shooting as well. Wade was usually the no. 1 scorer on the team, except when LeBron joined Miami. Pippen was usually the no. 2 scorer supporting Jordan except in the first year of Jordan’s retirement.

2. Pippen is one of the greatest defenders of all time and is better than Wade on defense, although Wade is also a good defender.

3. Although Wade has more assists per game, Pippen is actually the better passer. The numbers don’t indicate this because Pippen played SF and Wade was a guard.

4. They were both very valuable to their teams. Pippen was the second banana whenever Jordan was playing full time, while Wade was the leader except when LeBron joined Miami.

5. The numbers, especially the scoring stats and PER would favor Wade. But Pippen was better defensively and has better intangibles. I have to rate them even.

[dankok8]

Depends what the question is.

As a second fiddle, the edge might go to Pippen. Forcing Wade to be a second fiddle is wasting his talent and when Wade is taking 15-16 shots a game, Pippen's edge on defense can win out. I'd take 2012 Wade over Pippen but I'd take Pippen over 2013 and 2014 Wade.

However both as the best player on their team, it isn't particularly close. It's clearly Wade.

[Thenameless]

I'm going to go with Wade just by a bit.

It's one of those things that really depends on what your team needs. The current Nets roster if healthy would be a lock for the Championship if you added Pippen, while Wade would add very little. On the other hand, adding Wade to the 76ers with a motivated Embiid and Simmons would be much better for them than adding Pippen.

In the end, I say Wade because if your team has nothing, you probably want your franchise player to be a talented scorer over a talented defender.

[outofstomach]

this will surely be a fruitful, not agenda-driven discussion

[Thenameless]

this will surely be a fruitful, not agenda-driven discussion

Well, then add something of use like we're trying to do.

[3ba11]

Do you guys realize that it's harder to have a good defense with Pippen as the #1 option because you have to surround him with expensive offensive players?

Otoh, Wade's elite offense can be surrounded by cheap defenders like Haslem, Birdman and Battier, which is why the 2010-2012 Heat had better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

So individual defense isn't important when comparing 2 players of vastly different offensive capability because it's easier to build a good defensive team around the better offensive player.

[JohnMax]

3ball, who do you think is better Lebron or Wade?

[3ba11]

3ball, who do you think is better Lebron or Wade?


At their peaks, I think it's closer than people realize - there's a reason why Lebron didn't just waltz into Miami and take over the team in 2011 - it's because Wade was just as good, but in a different way - Wade was an alpha scorer that could dominate a Finals, while Lebron was a Westbrooking player that didn't know how to win..

If Lebron hadn't teamed up with Wade and sufficient talent for his Westbrooking brand to win, he'd be just another losing ball-dominator for his career just like Westbrook or Harden or CP3... So at their respective peaks (2009 vs 2009), Wade might be better in the playoffs... But due to longevity (teaming up to have many more deep runs), and also regular season accolade, Lebron would get the nod career-wise

[SATAN]

Peak Wade was better than Pippen but would be kind of redundant playing next to MJ, unlike Pippen. :confusedshrug:

These comparisons are kinda unrealistic.

Speaking of Pippen, I watched an old Bulls vs Lakers game last night and MJ was absolutely CARRIED all game. He went something like 7-30 from the field but Pippen and Kukoc saved his ass. MJ was at a point where he just refused to shoot anymore unless it was a free throw. Still got something like 29 points but was absolutely HORRENDOUS. Unlike Pippen.

But anyway, carry on...

[Sulico]

Who do you rate better as second fiddle to his 1st?
Wade to Lebron or Pippen to Jordan. And as well overall?


NBA Championships
Pippen 6
Wade 3

All Nba First Team
Pippen 3
Wade 2

All-NBA Teams
Wade 8
Pippen 7

Finals MVP
Wade 1
Pippen 0

All-Defensive 1st Team
Pippen 8
Wade 0

All-Defensive Teams
Pippen 10
Wade 3

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/scottie_pippen_vs_dwyane_wade.htm

Well, it's pretty clear from your original post who's greater. The only thing Wade have over Pippen is one finals MVP. But 6 games shouldn't dictate how good player was over his 1300 games career.

[Axe]

Peak Wade was better than Pippen but would be kind of redundant playing next to MJ, unlike Pippen. :confusedshrug:

These comparisons are kinda unrealistic.

Speaking of Pippen, I watched an old Bulls vs Lakers game last night and MJ was absolutely CARRIED all game. He went something like 7-30 from the field but Pippen and Kukoc saved his ass. MJ was at a point where he just refused to shoot anymore unless it was a free throw. Still got something like 29 points but was absolutely HORRENDOUS. Unlike Pippen.

But anyway, carry on...
This fool hates MJ a lot but continues to be obsessed about him and his career lmao.

[Phoenix]

I would favor Wade as a lead player for his takeover scoring while still playing great defense( not Pippen level, but Pip couldn't score like Wade). Pippen as a utility guy doing a lot of things well but not dominant except defensively makes him more suitable for the role he had.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Peak: clearly Wade
Prime: slightly Wade
Career: slightly Pippen

[SaintzFury13]

Well, then add something of use like we're trying to do.

You're asking too much out of him.

As for the OP, if we go overall then the answer is obviously Wade. But for the second best player on a team? Scottie is arguably the greatest secondary player you could ask for on a team. He's capable of commanding an offense and at his peak was a pretty good scorer. He's one of the greatest defensive players of all time and his versatility was off the charts.

[SaintzFury13]

Do you guys realize that it's harder to have a good defense with Pippen as the #1 option because you have to surround him with expensive offensive players?

That's the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard.

[ImKobe]

There's 0 argument for Pippen. It's like Karl Marlone vs. Charles Barkley in a way where you reward one guy for his longevity but know that they were never on the same level at their best. Pippen would not be able to carry a team like the '06 Heat to a championship, he was never capable of carrying a high scoring load.

[8Ball]

Who do you rate better as second fiddle to his 1st?
Wade to Lebron or Pippen to Jordan. And as well overall?


NBA Championships
Pippen 6
Wade 3

All Nba First Team
Pippen 3
Wade 2

All-NBA Teams
Wade 8
Pippen 7

Finals MVP
Wade 1
Pippen 0

All-Defensive 1st Team
Pippen 8
Wade 0

All-Defensive Teams
Pippen 10
Wade 3

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/scottie_pippen_vs_dwyane_wade.htm

They are about even all time.

[2much_knowledge]

Depends what the question is.

As a second fiddle, the edge might go to Pippen. Forcing Wade to be a second fiddle is wasting his talent and when Wade is taking 15-16 shots a game, Pippen's edge on defense can win out. I'd take 2012 Wade over Pippen but I'd take Pippen over 2013 and 2014 Wade.

However both as the best player on their team, it isn't particularly close. It's clearly Wade.


This

[3ba11]

That's the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard.


It's a literal fact and the historical record

Wade's elite offense can be surrounded by cheap defenders like Haslem, Birdman and Battier, which is why the 2010-2012 Heat had better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

So individual defense isn't important when comparing 2 players of vastly different offensive capability because it's easier to build a good defensive team around the better offensive player.

[Phoenix]

It's a literal fact and the historical record

Wade's elite offense can be surrounded by cheap defenders like Haslem, Birdman and Battier, which is why the 2010-2012 Heat had better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

So individual defense isn't important when comparing 2 players of vastly different offensive capability because it's easier to build a good defensive team around the better offensive player.

Wade's elite offense between 2010-2012 also had Lebron( runner-up DPOY 2013) who wasn't a cheap pick-up at 6 years/110m.

https://c.tenor.com/q67Ve6REXR4AAAAM/the-more-you-know-star.gif

[3ba11]

I'd take 2012 Wade over Pippen





But Wade was 2nd option in 2012, and you said that you preferred Pippen as 2nd option.

Although perhaps you misspoke because 2012 Wade had a 26 PER and was higher than any version of Pippen across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48) - Wade was top 5 in all categories, which Pippen never did.

So Wade > Pippen as 2nd option too.






but I'd take Pippen over 2013 and 2014 Wade.





Wade's lowest production on a title run > Pippen's across the board:


13' Wade Playoffs...... 18.7 PER.. 3.1 BPM.. 0.108 WS/48.. 1.0 VORP
93' Pippen Playoffs.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 0.8 VORP


And Wade averaged 20/5/5 in the Finals, while outscoring the opposing #1 option - that would rank no worse than Pippen's 3rd best Finals and maybe his best

[3ba11]

Wade's elite offense between 2010-2-12 also had Lebron( runner-up DPOY 2013) who wasn't a cheap pick-up at 6 years/110m.

https://c.tenor.com/q67Ve6REXR4AAAAM/the-more-you-know-star.gif


The post said the 2010 Heat - Lebron didn't play with Wade that year and the Heat had the #6 defense, or better than the 1st three-peat Bulls

[Phoenix]

The post said the 2010 Heat - Lebron didn't play with Wade that year and the Heat had the #6 defense, or better than the 1st three-peat Bulls

The post also said ELITE OFFENSE, and the 2010 Heat were 19th in ORtg. In other words......not elite.

Also, when you group '2010-2012', it's reasonable to assume that you were referring to the period when Lebron and Bosh joined.....which was in 2010.

[HoopsNY]

Wade's elite offense between 2010-2012 also had Lebron( runner-up DPOY 2013) who wasn't a cheap pick-up at 6 years/110m.

https://c.tenor.com/q67Ve6REXR4AAAAM/the-more-you-know-star.gif

3ball thinks he can continuously get away with stupidity and not get checked for it. It's as if he doesn't think we know that peak LeBron was one of the best defensive players, if not the best defensive player, in the league in 2013.

[Phoenix]

3ball thinks he can continuously get away with stupidity and not get checked for it. It's as if he doesn't think we know that peak LeBron was one of the best defensive players, if not the best defensive player, in the league in 2013.

Note he changed his stance to 'the post said 2010 HEAT, doing the Michael Jackson moonwalk. When you say '2010-2012' like he did initially one is typically referencing the Heatles( Wade, Lebron, Bosh).

[3ba11]

Note he changed his stance to 'the post said 2010 HEAT, doing the Michael Jackson moonwalk. When you say '2010-2012' like he did initially one is typically referencing the Heatles( Wade, Lebron, Bosh).


No, you simply need a lesson in nomenclature - 2010 refers to the 09-10' season... 2011 refers to 10-11' season.... etc, etc, etc... This has always been the case so I guess you needed to know that

[dankok8]

Wade is often penalized for having poor longevity but this was the case with Pippen as well. He entered his prime in 1990 and after his injuries in 1998 he was never the same and in fact never made an all-star game again. Something to consider. Wade made the all-star game 13 times (first 12 were well deserved) and Pippen made just 7...

[dankok8]

But Wade was 2nd option in 2012, and you said that you preferred Pippen as 2nd option.

Although perhaps you misspoke because 2012 Wade had a 26 PER and was higher than any version of Pippen across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48) - Wade was top 5 in all categories, which Pippen never did.

So Wade > Pippen as 2nd option too.






Wade's lowest production on a title run > Pippen's across the board:


13' Wade Playoffs...... 18.7 PER.. 3.1 BPM.. 0.108 WS/48.. 1.0 VORP
93' Pippen Playoffs.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 0.8 VORP


And Wade averaged 20/5/5 in the Finals, while outscoring the opposing #1 option - that would rank no worse than Pippen's 3rd best Finals and maybe his best

2012 Wade was much better than Pippen offensively... averaged 24/6/5 on +2 rTS from when his knee was drained midway through the Indy series. Pippen's better defense doesn't make up for Wade's offensive edge and Wade was also a good defender. Wade played a big role in getting the Heat out of that Pacers series and he really stepped up the rest of the way.

But in 2013 and 2014, Wade's offensive numbers were on Pippen's level and his defense was worse. At that point I'd take Pippen.

[3ba11]

The post also said ELITE OFFENSE, and the 2010 Heat were 19th in ORtg. In other words......not elite.

Also, when you group '2010-2012', it's reasonable to assume that you were referring to the period when Lebron and Bosh joined.....which was in 2010.


I never said anything about team offense

I said that Wade's elite offense can be surrounded by cheap defenders, which allows an equal or better team defense than Pippen, who needs to be surrounded by expensive offensive players..

I proved this by showing that Wade had the #6 defense in the 09-10' season (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls)

[Phoenix]

No, you simply need a lesson in nomenclature - 2010 refers to the 09-10' season... 2011 refers to 10-11' season.... etc, etc, etc... This has always been the case so I guess you needed to know that



Wade's elite offense can be surrounded by cheap defenders like Haslem, Birdman and Battier, which is why the 2010-2012 Heat had better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.



Well then say 2010 and not lump in 2011 and 2012.

But now that we are clear on what you mean.....the 2009-2010 season.....you said 'Wade's elite offense' and the Heat were the 19th ranked offense. So you're wrong anyways.....as usual. Will that be all or do you need to dig the hole a little deeper?

EDIT: OK you're clarified your post regarding 'Wade' and 'team' elite offense and I've addressed below.

[Phoenix]

I never said anything about team offense

I said that Wade's elite offense can be surrounded by cheap defenders, which allows an equal or better team defense than Pippen, who needs to be surrounded by expensive offensive players..

I proved this by showing that Wade had the #6 defense in the 09-10' season (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls)

OK. Wade with his 'elite offense' and 'cheap defenders' never made it past the first round and never won more than 47 games. So what's your point? The only 1:1 example you can use with regards to Pippen was the 94 season as that's the only full prime season he played without MJ. 55 wins, 2nd round and he wasn't surrounded with expensive offensive players.

[3ba11]

But in 2013 and 2014, Wade's offensive numbers were on Pippen's level and his defense was worse. At that point I'd take Pippen





Wade was on the downside in 2013, but so were various versions of Pippen - regardless of defensive considerations, Lebron can't win the 2013 Finals with 15.7 on 40% like Pippen in the 96' and 98' Finals - Lebron needed Wade to outscore the opposing #1 option and average 20+ on good efficiency.

So I think you guys overrate individual defensive impact - no amount of defense can make up the gap between Pippen's 15 on 34% and Wade's 20 on 47%

[dankok8]

Wade was on the downside in 2013, but so were various versions of Pippen - regardless of defensive considerations, Lebron can't win the 2013 Finals with 15.7 on 40% like Pippen in the 96' and 98' Finals - Lebron needed Wade to outscore the opposing #1 option and average 20+ on good efficiency.

So I think you guys overrate individual defensive impact - no amount of defense can make up the gap between Pippen's 15 on 34% and Wade's 20 on 47%

Yea but you're kind of cherry-picking here. Wade's offense was pedestrian for most of the playoffs. He had a good Game 7 of the Indy series and some good finals games like you said but I don't think I can call this version of Wade better than Pippen. Pippen scored a bit worse but did more playmaking and played better defense. He might have been better in 2013 than Pippen in 1998 but other Bulls title years I think Pippen was better than this version of Wade. Wade averaged just under 16/5/5 in the playoffs... that's not good.

[Manny98]

Wade is literally a tier above Pippen as a player

Wade vs Kobe would have been a more interesting discussion

[3ba11]

Yea but you're kind of cherry-picking here.

Wade's offense was pedestrian for most of the playoffs. He had a good Game 7 of the Indy series and some good finals games like you said but I don't think I can call this version of Wade better than Pippen. Pippen scored a bit worse but did more playmaking and played better defense. He might have been better in 2013 than Pippen in 1998 but other Bulls title years I think Pippen was better than this version of Wade. Wade averaged just under 16/5/5 in the playoffs... that's not good.


Wade's 15.9 ppg in the 13' Playoffs was pedestrian, but Pippen's 16.8 on bad efficiency was worse in the 96' or 98' Playoffs, especially considering Pippen scored less on a pace-adjusted basis and didn't have to share with a 3rd offensive star like Wade did, while also having the worst Finals ever (Wade had a great Finals)

So even Lebron's least help to win a Finals was infact a 66-win big 3 super-team that won 27 straight regular season games and saw Wade have a great Finals.. Otoh, Jordan's least help to win a Finals was going 4 on 5 offensively with 98' Rodman (Rodman wasn't even the starter in those Playoffs), while Pippen had among the worst Finals ever (15.7 on 41%)

Night and day

[HoopsNY]

Wade is the better #2 and #1. Wade was getting compared to LeBron and Kobe during his peak. For all of Wade's woes in 2013, he still averaged 21/5/5/2 on 52% in the regular season. And in the finals put up 20/4/5/2/1 on 48%. In game 7, he put up 23/10/1/1 on 52%.

[SaintzFury13]

while Pippen had among the worst Finals ever (15.7 on 41%)

That's not even close to among the worst finals ever.

[dankok8]

Wade's 15.9 ppg in the 13' Playoffs was pedestrian, but Pippen's 16.8 on bad efficiency was worse in the 96' or 98' Playoffs, especially considering Pippen scored less on a pace-adjusted basis and didn't have to share with a 3rd offensive star like Wade did, while also having the worst Finals ever (Wade had a great Finals)

So even Lebron's least help to win a Finals was infact a 66-win big 3 super-team that won 27 straight regular season games and saw Wade have a great Finals.. Otoh, Jordan's least help to win a Finals was going 4 on 5 offensively with 98' Rodman (Rodman wasn't even the starter in those Playoffs), while Pippen had among the worst Finals ever (15.7 on 41%)

Night and day

Wade himself was also very inefficient in the 2013 playoffs at low volume. Even in the finals he shot poorly at -3% rTS.

[3ba11]

Wade himself was also very inefficient in the 2013 playoffs at low volume. Even in the finals he shot poorly at -3% rTS.


Wade's playoffs stats in 2013 are about the same as Pippen's 96' or 98' stats......................

except Wade scored more on a pace-adjusted basis and had a 3rd offensive star to share with, while having a great Finals (pippen had literally the worst-ever Finals for a winning sidekick) and Wade also wasn't needed in the weak East.

it's night and day.. Lebron could never win with Pippen's scoring - he needs an elite 1st option like Wade that can be an equal-scoring partner or at least get 20 on 47% on call when needed (like the Finals)

[1987_Lakers]

Wade's playoffs stats in 2013 are about the same as Pippen's 96' or 98' stats......................



Pippen was a superior defender though.

[3ba11]

Pippen was a superior defender though.


FYI - lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% thru 6 was insufficient and needed Allen to force game 7)

So what did the Heat need in the 2013 Finals when Lebron was struggling to score?... :confusedshrug:

Would Pippen's 15.7 on horrific efficiency be enough like it was in the 96' and 98' Finals?... Obviously not - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick because he needs an elite 1st option to play sidekick and be an equal-scoring partner or close to it - he at least needs his sidekick to get 20 ppg with good efficiency ON CALL when needed (like the 13' Finals)

[dankok8]

FYI - lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% thru 6 was insufficient and needed Allen to force game 7)

So what did the Heat need in the 2013 Finals when Lebron was struggling to score?... :confusedshrug:

Would Pippen's 15.7 on horrific efficiency be enough like it was in the 96' and 98' Finals?... Obviously not - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick because he needs an elite 1st option to play sidekick and be an equal-scoring partner or close to it - he at least needs his sidekick to get 20 ppg with good efficiency ON CALL when needed (like the 13' Finals)

Wade didn't have good efficiency in the 2013 finals though... he shot with -3% rTS.

[SaintzFury13]

FYI - lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% thru 6 was insufficient and needed Allen to force game 7)

So what did the Heat need in the 2013 Finals when Lebron was struggling to score?... :confusedshrug:

Would Pippen's 15.7 on horrific efficiency be enough like it was in the 96' and 98' Finals?... Obviously not - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick because he needs an elite 1st option to play sidekick and be an equal-scoring partner or close to it - he at least needs his sidekick to get 20 ppg with good efficiency ON CALL when needed (like the 13' Finals)

Pippen averaged 20/8/7 in the 92 Finals on 48% shooting.

[3ba11]

Wade didn't have good efficiency in the 2013 finals though... he shot with -3% rTS.


Forget the 2nd three-peat where pippen's efficiency was literally worst all-time (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).

Pippen shot 45.9 TS in the 1993 Finals and was destroyed by Barkley, while Wade outscored the opposing #1 option in the 2013 Finals...

So Lebron didn't need to average 41... 25 on 44% was sufficient to win the ring (worse than mj ever played, literally)

[97 bulls]

Both players were great. I'd give a slight edge to Pippen because of his impact on the W-L column. Which was much better than it was as opposed to Wade and his team's. And Wade's inability to stay healthy enough to play. Pip was hurt too, but he played through his injuries and was always a key contributor to his team's success.

If you want stats, it Wade. If you want results, it Pippen.

[Axe]

Both players were great. I'd give a slight edge to Pippen because of his impact on the W-L column. Which was much better than it was as opposed to Wade and his team's. And Wade's inability to stay healthy enough to play. Pip was hurt too, but he played through his injuries and was always a key contributor to his team's success.

If you want stats, it Wade. If you want results, it Pippen.
This.

[3ba11]

Both players were great. I'd give a slight edge to Pippen because of his impact on the W-L column. Which was much better than it was as opposed to Wade and his team's. And Wade's inability to stay healthy enough to play. Pip was hurt too, but he played through his injuries and was always a key contributor to his team's success.

If you want stats, it Wade. If you want results, it Pippen.


Win column?

Wade had a 47-win team before Lebron joined, while Pippen was coming off a dynasty but barely had a .500 ballclub in 1995 before Jordan returned - Pippen literally destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years.

[Axe]

Win column?

Wade had a 47-win team before Lebron joined, while Pippen was coming off a dynasty but barely had a .500 ballclub in 1995 before Jordan returned - Pippen literally destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years.
They won 55 games without their first option. That was in 1994. Try again.

[SaintzFury13]

Both players were great. I'd give a slight edge to Pippen because of his impact on the W-L column. Which was much better than it was as opposed to Wade and his team's. And Wade's inability to stay healthy enough to play. Pip was hurt too, but he played through his injuries and was always a key contributor to his team's success.

If you want stats, it Wade. If you want results, it Pippen.

I can't agree with this statement. Wade played with LeBron for only 4 years, and by the end of the second year, the signs of decline were already showing. While I do concede that it is close between the two, if both men started their careers together like Jordan and Pippen did (albeit at different times), LeBron and Wade would have experienced far more success than they did.

[3ba11]

They won 55 games without their first option. That was in 1994. Try again.


that was at the apex after 3-peating, but what about the other years?.. We judge players on their ability to build the team every year, and the 95' Bulls had fallen to borderline lottery (barely .500)...

Ultimately, Jordan built the team every year like real stars do, while the team was heading south every year under Pippen and the dynasty destroyed in less than 2 years - so Pippen wasn't viable and couldn't build a team because he wasn't a legit 1st option...

[97 bulls]

I can't agree with this statement. Wade played with LeBron for only 4 years, and by the end of the second year, the signs of decline were already showing. While I do concede that it is close between the two, if both men started their careers together like Jordan and Pippen did (albeit at different times), LeBron and Wade would have experienced far more success than they did.

Wade was still in his prime in 2011. The Heat lost. That never happened with the Bulls. But it's not just that 3 year stint. Wade teams have minimal if any drop-off when he's not there over the course of his career as a whole.

[3ba11]

Wade was still in his prime in 2011. The Heat lost. That never happened with the Bulls. But it's not just that 3 year stint. Wade teams have minimal if any drop-off when he's not there over the course of his career as a whole.


Despite the injury year to Wade/Bosh in 2015, Wade had the Heat contending again in 2016 and nearly made the ECF just like 94' Pippen - Wade was far past his prime but still getting peak Pippen stats because it's a low bar (21/5/5 with 21 PER).

[97 bulls]

That was at the apex - anyone can do that with a fully-developed team that just won 3 chips in a row... So what about the other years other than the apex?.. We judge players on their ability to builid a team and the 95' Bulls had fallen to borderline lottery and barely .500... So Pippen destroyed the dynasty in less than 2 years.

So let's review - Jordan built the team every year like real stars do, while the team was heading south every year under Pippen and the dynasty destroyed in less than 2 years

If they're not replacing the talent then that's what's gonna happen. The Bulls lost Horace Grant for the 95 season. The fact that Pippen had that team anywhere near .500 shows his greatness. Most teams fall off a cliff when they lose their best player. And that's with a replacement. The Bulls losing Jordan and Grant by the 94-95 season and still staying above water was flat out impressive. Even more with Pip leading the way and doing something that only 5 players have been able to accomplish in the history of the league. All while being the defensive anchor for the numbed numbed raked defense and running the offense. Why this concept isn't understandable with regards to Pippen is beyond me.

[97 bulls]

Despite the injury year to Wade/Bosh in 2015, Wade had the Heat contending again in 2016 and nearly made the ECF just like 94' Pippen - Wade was far past his prime but still getting peak Pippen stats because it's a low bar (21/5/5 with 21 PER).

Bro. I stated over the course of Wade's career. That means his whole career. Not 2016. You love to cherrypick.

[Axe]

that was at the apex, but what about all the other years?.. We judge players on their ability to build a team and the 95' Bulls had fallen to borderline lottery and barely .500...

Ultimately, Jordan built the team every year like real stars do, while the team was heading south every year under Pippen and the dynasty destroyed in less than 2 years - Pippen wasn't viable and couldn't build a team because he wasn't a legit 1st option...
Kobe never won 50 games and above in the rs without a big man like shaq or pau by his side.

[Axe]

Bro. I stated over the course of Wade's career. That means his whole career. Not 2016. You love to cherrypick.
His reading comprehension is way too low when the opposing agenda doesn't suit him.

[SaintzFury13]

Wade was still in his prime in 2011. The Heat lost. That never happened with the Bulls. But it's not just that 3 year stint. Wade teams have minimal if any drop-off when he's not there over the course of his career as a whole.

You and I both know the Heat losing in 2011 was not Wade's fault.

[houston]

Wade wayyy better than Pippen

[3ba11]

Kobe never won 50 games and above in the rs without a big man like shaq or pau by his side.


Pau was a sidekick that never achieved FMVP or elite 1st option stats - it's rare to win with a true 2nd option that averages far lower secondary stats, yet Kobe did it twice

Rings without super-teams or 1b's are the highest quality rings and Kobe did that twice (lebron zero)

Lebron can't do it because he needs elite 1st option to play sidekick since he can't win with high scoring (his high scoring is too ball-dominant or inefficient at higher jumpshooting volumes)

[Axe]

Pau was a sidekick that never achieved FMVP or elite 1st option stats - it's rare to win with a true 2nd option that averages far lower secondary stats, yet Kobe did it twice

Rings without super-teams or 1b's are the highest quality rings and Kobe did that twice (lebron zero)

Lebron can't do it because he needs elite 1st option to play sidekick since he can't win with high scoring (his high scoring is too ball-dominant or inefficient at higher jumpshooting volumes)
Yet he did bail out kobe in the playoffs numerous times.

[outofstomach]

You're asking too much out of him.

As for the OP, if we go overall then the answer is obviously Wade. But for the second best player on a team? Scottie is arguably the greatest secondary player you could ask for on a team. He's capable of commanding an offense and at his peak was a pretty good scorer. He's one of the greatest defensive players of all time and his versatility was off the charts.how ironic, you can’t even keep your narratives straight thread to thread :lol ****ing idiot

[HoopsNY]

Wade was still in his prime in 2011. The Heat lost. That never happened with the Bulls. But it's not just that 3 year stint. Wade teams have minimal if any drop-off when he's not there over the course of his career as a whole.

Miami's record without Wade between 2004-2010 was 40-63 (.388%). Clearly he had a significant impact on his team's play with and without him on the court.

[Phoenix]

My only knock on Wade when he was a solo act is he should have gotten the 2009 Heat over the Hawks, especially considering the year he had and being the far and away best player on the floor. In 2010 it was basically him against the big three(four?) Celtics who were 5 minutes away from closing the deal on another championship, but he gave a good showing there. Outside of that, his prime was between the end of Shaq's and Lebron's peak. He only had 2 seasons in his prime without a top-level teammate.

[97 bulls]

You and I both know the Heat losing in 2011 was not Wade's fault.

You're right. But they did lose. I xould say that if Wade was such a great defender, maybe he should've took on the assignment of guarding Jason Terry.

[97 bulls]

Miami's record without Wade between 2004-2010 was 40-63 (.388%). Clearly he had a significant impact on his team's play with and without him on the court.

Let’s look at the numbers, shall we?

.507 (35–34): HEAT’s record during the 6 seasons with Shaq and LeBron (excluding ‘07–08 ) when either of those two was hurt yet Wade played

.726 (238–90): HEAT’s record when both Wade and either Shaq or LeBron suited played — two superstars playing at once

.763 (45–14): HEAT’s record when Wade sat with an injury yet Shaq or LeBron played

If you look at their playoff success without Shaq or LeBron, they’ve never won a damn thing. Even if you look at that terrible ‘07–08 season when Shaq was traded, Miami was only 4–11 with both Wade and Shaq, yet Wade without Shaq got ugly, going 6–30.

[Phoenix]

You're right. But they did lose. I xould say that if Wade was such a great defender, maybe he should've took on the assignment of guarding Jason Terry.

Lebron could have taken that challenge handily as well, considering he took on the role of situationally being in front of Derrick Rose in the prior round. That being said, if Lebron played even 'decently', and decently would have been how he played from games 1-3, the Heat likely win in 6. The backbreaker was being up 2-1, Wade drops 32, Bosh 24, Lebron 8.....and they lose by 3. A crap game from Lebron having 15 points would have sealed the deal, then they're up 3-1 with HCA the rest of the way.

[97 bulls]

Let’s look at the numbers, shall we?

.507 (35–34): HEAT’s record during the 6 seasons with Shaq and LeBron (excluding ‘07–08 ) when either of those two was hurt yet Wade played

.726 (238–90): HEAT’s record when both Wade and either Shaq or LeBron suited played — two superstars playing at once

.763 (45–14): HEAT’s record when Wade sat with an injury yet Shaq or LeBron played

If you look at their playoff success without Shaq or LeBron, they’ve never won a damn thing. Even if you look at that terrible ‘07–08 season when Shaq was traded, Miami was only 4–11 with both Wade and Shaq, yet Wade without Shaq got ugly, going 6–30.

https://medium.com/@picknrolltheory/d-wades-legacy-as-a-winner-is-overrated-77017ea0dbd

This is the link to the website where I got the information from

[97 bulls]

Lebron could have taken that challenge handily as well, considering he took on the role of situationally being in front of Derrick Rose in the prior round. That being said, if Lebron played even 'decently', and decently would have been how he played from games 1-3, the Heat likely win in 6. The backbreaker was being up 2-1, Wade drops 32, Bosh 24, Lebron 8.....and they lose by 3. A crap game from Lebron having 15 points would have sealed the deal, then they're up 3-1 with HCA the rest of the way.

You're right. James was on Terry sometimes. Wade never was.

[Phoenix]

You're right. James was on Terry sometimes. Wade never was.

The few times I recall Lebron on Terry he got smoked, and I don't know why. Derrick Rose at the height of his powers should have been a much tougher cover but Lebron was able to mostly keep him at bay IIRC. Maybe Wade could taken that challenge, but he was also the one anchoring the Heats offense with Lebron 10ppg off his normal production.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's not apples to apples.

Wade played with bron for 4 years. Pippen and Jordan played together for twice that long. That makes a huge difference. I'd take the guys who played together longer. Without that advantage, I'd want Wade.

[97 bulls]

The few times I recall Lebron on Terry he got smoked, and I don't know why. Derrick Rose at the height of his powers should have been a much tougher cover but Lebron was able to mostly keep him at bay IIRC. Maybe Wade could taken that challenge, but he was also the one anchoring the Heats offense with Lebron 10ppg off his normal production.

Because all James did vs Rose was give him about 10-15 feet and dared him to shoot.

[97 bulls]

I understand. But the Heat did lose when they shouldn't have. With prime Wade and Bron and Bosh. That never happened with Pippen. At all. And the teams with Pippen on them had more opportunities to fail.

[SaintzFury13]

how ironic, you can’t even keep your narratives straight thread to thread :lol ****ing idiot

Considering how the last time you tried pulling this shit, you were proven wrong in hilarious fashion, I'm just going to state it point blank now that I've never once stated that Pippen was a better player than Wade rather than show you the multitude of posts where I've stated such to save you any further embarrassment.

Stop being a moron and getting yourself into these situations. I would have thought by now that you would learn but it appears you're incapable of doing such a thing.

[SaintzFury13]

You're right. But they did lose. I xould say that if Wade was such a great defender, maybe he should've took on the assignment of guarding Jason Terry.

He shouldn't have needed to in the first place. There's a reason LeBron was the one who guarded him more, because 2011 LeBron James was a better defender than 2011 Dwayne Wade. And there's nothing wrong with that. After all, LeBron was first team all defense, a better one on one defender and two years ago was runner up for DPOY. Jason Terry was going off and LeBron James had proven he was capable of shutting people down in the past. There's no reason as to why LeBron shouldn't have been able to do the same with Terry.

Call it what you will, but the fact remains that Wade was Miami's best performer in the 2011 Finals. And thus he gets a pass for it.

[97 bulls]

He shouldn't have needed to in the first place. There's a reason LeBron was the one who guarded him more, because 2011 LeBron James was a better defender than 2011 Dwayne Wade. And there's nothing wrong with that. After all, LeBron was first team all defense, a better one on one defender and two years ago was runner up for DPOY. Jason Terry was going off and LeBron James had proven he was capable of shutting people down in the past. There's no reason as to why LeBron shouldn't have been able to do the same with Terry.

Call it what you will, but the fact remains that Wade was Miami's best performer in the 2011 Finals. And thus he gets a pass for it.

I can't give him a pass because like I said, he could've done more on defense.

[SaintzFury13]

I can't give him a pass because like I said, he could've done more on defense.

Yeah, no, I'm not buying that logic. When the teams best player ended up doing less than Wade did on both ends of the floor, I'm not going to criticize Wade for his efforts. That makes no logical sense to me. I hold every star player to the same standard. It's why I don't blame LeBron for most of his finals losses, because most of them aren't his fault to begin with. The same standard holds true for Wade in 2011.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, no, I'm not buying that logic. When the teams best player ended up doing less than Wade did on both ends of the floor, I'm not going to criticize Wade for his efforts. That makes no logical sense to me. I hold every star player to the same standard. It's why I don't blame LeBron for most of his finals losses, because most of them aren't his fault to begin with. The same standard holds true for Wade in 2011.

And that's fair. I feel you're consistent. But understand my point. James being a forward is guarding guards and PGs. The Mavericks best perimeter players offensively. And then he's being asked to score at a high level. Who was Wade guarding? Wasn't it Stevenson?

[SaintzFury13]

And that's fair. I feel you're consistent. But understand my point. James being a forward is guarding guards and PGs. The Mavericks best perimeter players offensively. And then he's being asked to score at a high level. Who was Wade guarding? Wasn't it Stevenson?

So? What's the problem here? LeBron did that routinely in 2009 and 2010, and even in 2011. Hell, there were even times in 2012 where he had to guard Durant and he managed to do a good job with that. So why is asking him to guard the best player while scoring at a high level suddenly too much to ask for in the NBA finals no less? What made 2011 different? Out of all the times throughout his career, that was really the time he needed to do more than ever and he didn't. That's always going to haunt him and it's always going to prevent him from being the popular consensus GOAT.

And yes, he's a forward guarding guards and PG's. Guess what? He proved he was capable of doing it. Hell, he did it again in 2013 when he locked up Tony Parker for the rest of the series after game 1, and he still went on to be the leading scorer in that series. He did it again (albeit not as frequently) in 2016 with Curry. There is no excuse for him not being able to do it with Jason ****ing Terry (who was great in that series, won't take that away from him), especially when this was the closest LeBron ever got up to this point in winning a championship. He squandered that opportunity and has no one to blame but himself. Simply put, underperformed. Wade, if anything, exceeded expectations.

[97 bulls]

So? What's the problem here? LeBron did that routinely in 2009 and 2010, and even in 2011. Hell, there were even times in 2012 where he had to guard Durant and he managed to do a good job with that. So why is asking him to guard the best player while scoring at a high level suddenly too much to ask for in the NBA finals no less? What made 2011 different? Out of all the times throughout his career, that was really the time he needed to do more than ever and he didn't. That's always going to haunt him and it's always going to prevent him from being the popular consensus GOAT.

And yes, he's a forward guarding guards and PG's. Guess what? He proved he was capable of doing it. Hell, he did it again in 2013 when he locked up Tony Parker for the rest of the series after game 1, and he still went on to be the leading scorer in that series. He did it again (albeit not as frequently) in 2016 with Curry. There is no excuse for him not being able to do it with Jason ****ing Terry (who was great in that series, won't take that away from him), especially when this was the closest LeBron ever got up to this point in winning a championship. He squandered that opportunity and has no one to blame but himself. Simply put, underperformed. Wade, if anything, exceeded expectations.

Lol. So we gonna relinquish Wade of having to step up and play defense because James has a history of being able to play offense and defense at s high level?

Either way, the Heat lost. This type of logic never ceases to amaze me. If a guy score a lot of points, all other factors of the game or lack there of are forgiven.

What about the fact that James saw the most attention defensively? James had to be the best perimeter defender? I can make the argument that since Wade wasn't expected to do much more than score, he should've scored more. All of the Heat get the blame. Not just LeBron James.

[aj1987]

I knew this board was retarded AF, but not this brain dead level retarded. I wish this poll was public, so we could've shat on the idiots who voted for Pippen.

It's Dwyane Wade and it's not particularly close either. Wade is a tier above Pippen as a player.

As for 97 bulls' posts, I really hope you're just a troll, dude. I always know you slurped Pippen, but blaming Wade for the '11 Finals? That's just pathetic. Also, before throwing out random statements about the '11 Finals, you might want to go watch that series again. Before someone decides to take the time to humiliate you on your asinine takes.

[Phoenix]

AJ1987! All is well?

[aj1987]

AJ1987! All is well?

Work has been extremely busy and have been traveling a lot as well, to make up for last year. Haven't really had the time to get on here. How you been?

[Phoenix]

Work has been extremely busy and have been traveling a lot as well, to make up for last year. Haven't really had the time to get on here. How you been?

Hanging in there, day by day, you know the drill. I thought you had taken a hiatus from the site which well.......who could blame you lol? Good to see you posting even if it's a quick dip in and out.

[Manny98]

I knew this board was retarded AF, but not this brain dead level retarded. I wish this poll was public, so we could've shat on the idiots who voted for Pippen.

It's Dwyane Wade and it's not particularly close either. Wade is a tier above Pippen as a player.

As for 97 bulls' posts, I really hope you're just a troll, dude. I always know you slurped Pippen, but blaming Wade for the '11 Finals? That's just pathetic. Also, before throwing out random statements about the '11 Finals, you might want to go watch that series again. Before someone decides to take the time to humiliate you on your asinine takes.
Wait... What :roll:

[97 bulls]

I knew this board was retarded AF, but not this brain dead level retarded. I wish this poll was public, so we could've shat on the idiots who voted for Pippen.

It's Dwyane Wade and it's not particularly close either. Wade is a tier above Pippen as a player.

As for 97 bulls' posts, I really hope you're just a troll, dude. I always know you slurped Pippen, but blaming Wade for the '11 Finals? That's just pathetic. Also, before throwing out random statements about the '11 Finals, you might want to go watch that series again. Before someone decides to take the time to humiliate you on your asinine takes.

I'm not blaming Wade, I'm blaming the team. He's a a part of that team.

[Nike D'Antoni]

I knew this board was retarded AF, but not this brain dead level retarded. I wish this poll was public, so we could've shat on the idiots who voted for Pippen.

It's Dwyane Wade and it's not particularly close either. Wade is a tier above Pippen as a player.

As for 97 bulls' posts, I really hope you're just a troll, dude. I always know you slurped Pippen, but blaming Wade for the '11 Finals? That's just pathetic. Also, before throwing out random statements about the '11 Finals, you might want to go watch that series again. Before someone decides to take the time to humiliate you on your asinine takes.

I remember one time, I was able to rile up people here to vote Danny Green all-time over James Harden http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494769-Danny-Green-vs-James-Harden

[HoopsNY]

Let’s look at the numbers, shall we?

.507 (35–34): HEAT’s record during the 6 seasons with Shaq and LeBron (excluding ‘07–08 ) when either of those two was hurt yet Wade played

.726 (238–90): HEAT’s record when both Wade and either Shaq or LeBron suited played — two superstars playing at once

.763 (45–14): HEAT’s record when Wade sat with an injury yet Shaq or LeBron played

If you look at their playoff success without Shaq or LeBron, they’ve never won a damn thing. Even if you look at that terrible ‘07–08 season when Shaq was traded, Miami was only 4–11 with both Wade and Shaq, yet Wade without Shaq got ugly, going 6–30.

I specified 2004-10 for a reason. You can't say something like, "Wade's teams have a minimal, if any drop off without him..." and ignore the pre-LeBron days when there was also no Bosh, Allen, Battier, etc.

In the years mentioned, Miami posted a .388 Win % without him, you proceeded to post a bunch of years with Shaq and LeBron (presumably also with the other names mentioned).

Let's take a deeper look:

2003-04: 8-13 w/o Wade (34-27 w/Wade) *There is no Shaq here, yet no credit for Wade???*
2004-05: 3-2 w/o Wade (56-21 w/Wade)
2005-06: 4-3 w/o Wade (48-27 w/Wade)
2006-07: 17-14 w/o Wade (27-24 w/Wade)
2007-08: 5-26 w/o Wade (10-41 w/Wade)
2008-09: 1-2 w/o Wade (42-37 w/Wade) *No Shaq*
2009-10: 2-3 w/o Wade (45-32 w/Wade) *No Shaq*

So clearly they were a more effective team across the board with Wade on the court. This just can't be ignored. The Miami years is a bit skewed because in Wade's absence, there were other guys who could step up in his place, like Bosh and Allen.

For example, Allen started 9 games in 2014, he averaged 12/4/2/1 on 64% TS% in those games, in just 32 minutes of action. Bosh put up 20/7/2/1/1 on 54/33/86 splits in 53 games during those years.

You're minimizing Wade's impact. Not to mention, Miami won 48 games and made the second round without LeBron in 2016 and Bosh missing nearly half the season. And in the games Wade was present and Bosh wasn't? Miami was 16-8.

[dankok8]

I specified 2004-10 for a reason. You can't say something like, "Wade's teams have a minimal, if any drop off without him..." and ignore the pre-LeBron days when there was also no Bosh, Allen, Battier, etc.

In the years mentioned, Miami posted a .388 Win % without him, you proceeded to post a bunch of years with Shaq and LeBron (presumably also with the other names mentioned).

Let's take a deeper look:

2003-04: 8-13 w/o Wade (34-27 w/Wade)
2004-05: 3-2 w/o Wade (56-21 w/Wade)
2005-06: 4-3 w/o Wade (48-27 w/Wade)
2006-07: 17-14 w/o Wade (27-24 w/Wade)
2007-08: 5-26 w/o Wade (10-41 w/Wade)
2008-09: 1-2 w/o Wade (42-37 w/Wade)
2009-10: 2-3 w/o Wade (45-32 w/Wade)

So clearly they were a more effective team across the board with Wade on the court. This just can't be ignored. The Miami years is a bit skewed because in Wade's absence, there were other guys who could step up in his place, like Bosh and Allen.

For example, Allen started 9 games in 2014, he averaged 12/4/2/1 on 64% TS% in those games, in just 32 minutes of action. Bosh put up 20/7/2/1/1 on 54/33/86 splits in 53 games during those years.

You're minimizing Wade's impact. Not to mention, Miami won 48 games and made the second round without LeBron in 2016 and Bosh missing nearly half the season.

Not to mention that data is heavily skewed by the 07-08 season in which Wade was injured and far from his true ability when he was on the court. Wade in terms of prime/peak form was a top 3 player in the league. There were people making very strong arguments for him being the best in the world in 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011. But these days posters on here are quick to forget...

[HoopsNY]

There is no argument for Pippen over Wade. Prime for prime, Wade wins.

RS Wade '05-'12: 26/5/6/2/1 on 57% TS%
RS Pippen '91-'98: 20/7/6/2/1 on 55% TS%

PS Wade '05-'12: 26/6/5/2/1 on 57% TS%
PS Pippen '91-'98: 19/8/6/2/1 on 52% TS%

Finals Wade: 28/7/5/2/1 on 57% TS%
Finals Pippen: 19/8/6/2/1 on 50% TS%

Game 7s Wade: 27/5/5/1/1 on 55% TS%
Game 7s Pippen: 18/13/6/2/1 on 49% TS%

Conf. Finals Wade: 22/6/4/2/1 on 57% TS%
Conf. Finals Pippen: 19/8/5/2/1 on 53% TS%

Peak Wade was in competition with LeBron and Kobe, two top 12-13 players of all-time. I also think Wade's rebounding numbers would be more if he was at the SF position. His rebounding was incredible for someone who split the PG role for much of his peak/prime. If you put Wade around the basket, his athleticism was good enough to grab 8-9 rebounds a game.

And I haven't even mentioned Wade's 2006 finals performance, which is amongst the greatest of all time.

[HoopsNY]

Not to mention that data is heavily skewed by the 07-08 season in which Wade was injured and far from his true ability when he was on the court. Wade in terms of prime/peak form was a top 3 player in the league. There were people making very strong arguments for him being the best in the world in 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011. But these days posters on here are quick to forget...

Precisely. He was a menace defensively, insane athleticism, just an all-around great player who drew comparisons to all-time greats. The same just cannot be said about Pippen. This doesn't diminish from what Pippen did in any way, but Wade was the superior player.

[97 bulls]

I specified 2004-10 for a reason. You can't say something like, "Wade's teams have a minimal, if any drop off without him..." and ignore the pre-LeBron days when there was also no Bosh, Allen, Battier, etc.

In the years mentioned, Miami posted a .388 Win % without him, you proceeded to post a bunch of years with Shaq and LeBron (presumably also with the other names mentioned).

Let's take a deeper look:

2003-04: 8-13 w/o Wade (34-27 w/Wade) *There is no Shaq here, yet no credit for Wade???*
2004-05: 3-2 w/o Wade (56-21 w/Wade)
2005-06: 4-3 w/o Wade (48-27 w/Wade)
2006-07: 17-14 w/o Wade (27-24 w/Wade)
2007-08: 5-26 w/o Wade (10-41 w/Wade)
2008-09: 1-2 w/o Wade (42-37 w/Wade) *No Shaq*
2009-10: 2-3 w/o Wade (45-32 w/Wade) *No Shaq*

So clearly they were a more effective team across the board with Wade on the court. This just can't be ignored. The Miami years is a bit skewed because in Wade's absence, there were other guys who could step up in his place, like Bosh and Allen.

For example, Allen started 9 games in 2014, he averaged 12/4/2/1 on 64% TS% in those games, in just 32 minutes of action. Bosh put up 20/7/2/1/1 on 54/33/86 splits in 53 games during those years.

You're minimizing Wade's impact. Not to mention, Miami won 48 games and made the second round without LeBron in 2016 and Bosh missing nearly half the season. And in the games Wade was present and Bosh wasn't? Miami was 16-8.

Lol. This is your argument? Outside of three seasons, where the Heat were 1 game under .500 in two (granted a small sample size) and Wade's rookie year? The Heat have managed to remain an above .500 team without him. Or there's been minimal difference. And that's not including the Lebron James years.

[97 bulls]

Not to mention that data is heavily skewed by the 07-08 season in which Wade was injured and far from his true ability when he was on the court. Wade in terms of prime/peak form was a top 3 player in the league. There were people making very strong arguments for him being the best in the world in 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011. But these days posters on here are quick to forget...

SMH. But we not gonna apply the same logic for Pippen with regards to the bold right? Pippen was also a top 3 player prime peak. Nobody ever saw Wade as being the best played in the world outside of Miami.

[dankok8]

SMH. But we not gonna apply the same logic for Pippen with regards to the bold right? Pippen was also a top 3 player prime peak. Nobody ever saw Wade as being the best played in the world outside of Miami.

Pippen was never a top 3 player or in serious discussion for best player in the world.

[SaintzFury13]

Lol. So we gonna relinquish Wade of having to step up and play defense because James has a history of being able to play offense and defense at s high level?

Either way, the Heat lost. This type of logic never ceases to amaze me. If a guy score a lot of points, all other factors of the game or lack there of are forgiven.

What about the fact that James saw the most attention defensively? James had to be the best perimeter defender? I can make the argument that since Wade wasn't expected to do much more than score, he should've scored more. All of the Heat get the blame. Not just LeBron James.

Buddy, this is a terrible argument and you and I both know it. Again, LeBron was the better player defensively that year. He needed to be the one to take on the task of guarding Terry. Do you say screw it and put Wade on him instead in that situation? Probably, but guess what? That's not Wade's call to make. And the fact of the matter is, Wade isn't the one who got lit up over and over again by the same player in the finals. LeBron on the other hand did.

And also, yes, LeBron received the most attention on offense. That's not an excuse. He received the most attention in 2009 against the Magic and dominated. In 2010, he played well until that infamous game 5 where he just completely shat the bed and went right back to it in game 6 but couldn't pull out the W. 2011 was a strange anomaly, but it happened nonetheless and it happened under LeBron's watch. He should have been far better than what he was.

Miami losing in 2011 is because of one person. LeBron. That's all there is to it. Everyone else played their roles exactly the way that was expected. LeBron is the only one who underperformed, and it was in historically bad fashion.


Pippen was never a top 3 player or in serious discussion for best player in the world.

If Jordan doesn't return in 95 and Pippen has another year in 96 similar to what he had in 94 and 95, I have no doubt in my mind that Pippen would have been considered a top 5, maybe even top 3 player in the world. He was already third in MVP voting in 94.

[97 bulls]

Buddy, this is a terrible argument and you and I both know it. Again, LeBron was the better player defensively that year. He needed to be the one to take on the task of guarding Terry. Do you say screw it and put Wade on him instead in that situation? Probably, but guess what? That's not Wade's call to make. And the fact of the matter is, Wade isn't the one who got lit up over and over again by the same player in the finals. LeBron on the other hand did.

And also, yes, LeBron received the most attention on offense. That's not an excuse. He received the most attention in 2009 against the Magic and dominated. In 2010, he played well until that infamous game 5 where he just completely shat the bed and went right back to it in game 6 but couldn't pull out the W. 2011 was a strange anomaly, but it happened nonetheless and it happened under LeBron's watch. He should have been far better than what he was.

Miami losing in 2011 is because of one person. LeBron. That's all there is to it. Everyone else played their roles exactly the way that was expected. LeBron is the only one who underperformed, and it was in historically bad fashion.



If Jordan doesn't return in 95 and Pippen has another year in 96 similar to what he had in 94 and 95, I have no doubt in my mind that Pippen would have been considered a top 5, maybe even top 3 player in the world. He was already third in MVP voting in 94.

I'm sorry bro. I just have to disagree. They all had a hand in losing that series. Even Wade. In Game 2, the Heat gave up a 15 point 4th quarter lead by allowing the Mavericks to go on a 20-2 run. 2 points. That includes Wade.

We both agree that Wade could go ball out on offense since he was guarding Kidd, why did he only take 12 shots in Game 5?

And Wade flat out wet the bed in game 6 .

Wades numbers may look great, but context matters.

[dankok8]

If Jordan doesn't return in 95 and Pippen has another year in 96 similar to what he had in 94 and 95, I have no doubt in my mind that Pippen would have been considered a top 5, maybe even top 3 player in the world. He was already third in MVP voting in 94.

Pippen was not on the level of Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq or Malone. And a handful of guys like Barkley and Ewing are very debatable. He was at best 5th while MJ was gone to play baseball.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Dwyane Wade Highest MVP Voting - 3rd in 2008-2009 with no Lebron https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html
Scottie Pippen Highest MVP Voting - 3rd in 1993-1994 with no Jordan https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1994.html

Really interesting

[aceman]

Pippen was never a top 3 player or in serious discussion for best player in the world.

1994 alongside Hakeem & Robinson.
Many pundits had him as #2 behind Jordan in 96

[aceman]

Precisely. He was a menace defensively, insane athleticism, just an all-around great player who drew comparisons to all-time greats. The same just cannot be said about Pippen. This doesn't diminish from what Pippen did in any way, but Wade was the superior player.

That description thought you were talking about Pippen

[aceman]

He shouldn't have needed to in the first place. There's a reason LeBron was the one who guarded him more, because 2011 LeBron James was a better defender than 2011 Dwayne Wade. And there's nothing wrong with that. After all, LeBron was first team all defense, a better one on one defender and two years ago was runner up for DPOY. Jason Terry was going off and LeBron James had proven he was capable of shutting people down in the past. There's no reason as to why LeBron shouldn't have been able to do the same with Terry.

Call it what you will, but the fact remains that Wade was Miami's best performer in the 2011 Finals. And thus he gets a pass for it.

Because James was main scorer, ball handler & shouldn't be chasing quicker guard all game. In reference to Pippen he was doing two of those things for the bulls. Wade was primarily secondary scorer.

[HoopsNY]

Lol. This is your argument? Outside of three seasons, where the Heat were 1 game under .500 in two (granted a small sample size) and Wade's rookie year? The Heat have managed to remain an above .500 team without him. Or there's been minimal difference. And that's not including the Lebron James years.

Unreal, I cited 8 seasons of play; 7 of them belong to his first 7 years in the league. Miami is 32-50 (.390 Win%) during that time. But this is somehow some kind of "small sample size?"

You don't get to cherry pick years. Rookie Wade's 2003-04 season counts whether you like it or not. But in addition, you completely ignored 2016 where I mentioned no LeBron (48 win season, 2nd Round appearance), and no Bosh (16-8 record).

You also ignored the fact that from 2011-14, there were other guys that could step up. It wasn't LeBron on an island by himself. Bosh was putting up 20 PPG on 54%. Not to mention other guys like Allen and Battier who brought shooting, defense, and a veteran presence. You think the 2013 Heat won 66 games just for the heck of it? That was a well rounded team.

And sure, 2009 and 2010 the Heat only had 8 games without Wade, but you overlooked what they did with him during those years, (32 win pace w/o Wade, 46 win pace with him). Not to mention, you seem trigger happy to mention Chicago going 4-6 without Pippen in 1993-94, but Wade doesn't get that luxury over the course of 8 seasons? Pretty odd.

Lastly, Miami's record is somehow indicative of Wade's lack of impact from 2011-2014, irrespective of the fact that Miami had LeBron/Bosh? Okay, then what does that say about Pippen? In the first and second 3-peat, Chicago was 32-12 (.727 Win%) without Pippen. If the retort is, "well they had MJ," then why doesn't that context fit Wade's narrative as well?

[SaintzFury13]

I'm sorry bro. I just have to disagree. They all had a hand in losing that series. Even Wade. In Game 2, the Heat gave up a 15 point 4th quarter lead by allowing the Mavericks to go on a 20-2 run. 2 points. That includes Wade.

We both agree that Wade could go ball out on offense since he was guarding Kidd, why did he only take 12 shots in Game 5?

And Wade flat out wet the bed in game 6 .

Wades numbers may look great, but context matters.

Okay, cool, Wade wet the bed in game 6.

LeBron wet the bed in every single game.

This is on par with 3ball logic. Every single star player is going to have bad games in a series at times. It's completely illogical however to point towards the guy who played the best on a consistent basis and criticize the way they played. All you're doing at this point is looking for reasons to criticize Wade, instead of looking at the actual reasons as to why the team lost in the first place. And that all falls back on LeBron.

[tontoz]

Hard to give a definite answer. Wade was far better on offense but injury prone. Pippen was pretty durable until his mid 30s.

[97 bulls]

Unreal, I cited 8 seasons of play; 7 of them belong to his first 7 years in the league. Miami is 32-50 (.390 Win%) during that time. But this is somehow some kind of "small sample size?"

I wouldn't count seasons where he missed a few games. I'd focus more on 10 and up ro get a good understanding


You don't get to cherry pick years. Rookie Wade's 2003-04 season counts whether you like it or not. But in addition, you completely ignored 2016 where I mentioned no LeBron (48 win season, 2nd Round appearance), and no Bosh (16-8 record).
I'm not cherrypicking here. I went off of when Wade missed a significant amount of time


You also ignored the fact that from 2011-14, there were other guys that could step up. It wasn't LeBron on an island by himself. Bosh was putting up 20 PPG on 54%. Not to mention other guys like Allen and Battier who brought shooting, defense, and a veteran presence. You think the 2013 Heat won 66 games just for the heck of it? That was a well rounded team.
I understand. But were comparing Wade and Pippen.


And sure, 2009 and 2010 the Heat only had 8 games without Wade, but you overlooked what they did with him during those years, (32 win pace w/o Wade, 46 win pace with him). Not to mention, you seem trigger happy to mention Chicago going 4-6 without Pippen in 1993-94, but Wade doesn't get that luxury over the course of 8 seasons? Pretty odd.

Lastly, Miami's record is somehow indicative of Wade's lack of impact from 2011-2014, irrespective of the fact that Miami had LeBron/Bosh? Okay, then what does that say about Pippen? In the first and second 3-peat, Chicago was 32-12 (.727 Win%) without Pippen. If the retort is, "well they had MJ," then why doesn't that context fit Wade's narrative as well?

Pippen only missed 10 or more games twice during from 91 to 98. 94 like you mentioned, and 98. Let's focus on 98. The Bulls were 26-12 without Pippen. And 36-8 with him. Just because a player misses a considerable amount of games, doesn't mean a team has to fall off a cliff. Especially if the team is like the case with the Bulls. A perennial high 60 game winner. Pippen absence was definitely felt every time he wasn't there.

Wade? Not so much. And sometimes, the team played BETTER WITHOUT HIM. This is a fact
Let’s look at the numbers, shall we?

.507 (35–34): HEAT’s record during the 6 seasons with Shaq and LeBron (excluding ‘07–08 ) when either of those two was hurt yet Wade played

.726 (238–90): HEAT’s record when both Wade and either Shaq or LeBron suited played — two superstars playing at once

.763 (45–14): HEAT’s record when Wade sat with an injury yet Shaq or LeBron played

[97 bulls]

Okay, cool, Wade wet the bed in game 6.

LeBron wet the bed in every single game.

This is on par with 3ball logic. Every single star player is going to have bad games in a series at times. It's completely illogical however to point towards the guy who played the best on a consistent basis and criticize the way they played. All you're doing at this point is looking for reasons to criticize Wade, instead of looking at the actual reasons as to why the team lost in the first place. And that all falls back on LeBron.

I went through 3 of the 4 losses. I'm not blaming Wade. But I plainly showed why he is also involved.

[ClipperRevival]

The poll results PROVE ISH has little credibility. A lot of Brons and their alts posting on this site. Wade is a tier above Pip. Pip is a second fiddle. Wade dominated a finals series as "the man". Wade vs Kobe is a decent convo.

[Axe]

The poll results PROVE ISH has little credibility. A lot of Brons and their alts posting on this site. Wade is a tier above Pip. Pip is a second fiddle. Wade dominated a finals series as "the man". Wade vs Kobe is a decent convo.
But as an all-around player, pippen is more versatile due to his size and floor iq. Scoring is wade's biggest edge over him.

[BigShotBob]

But as an all-around player, pippen is more versatile due to his size and floor iq. Scoring is wade's biggest edge over him.

Their floor IQ is very comparable, perhaps more so in Wade's favor

[dankok8]

The poll results PROVE ISH has little credibility. A lot of Brons and their alts posting on this site. Wade is a tier above Pip. Pip is a second fiddle. Wade dominated a finals series as "the man". Wade vs Kobe is a decent convo.

To be fair, the OP was asking in the context of a 2nd option on a title team. For that you could choose Pippen and it's perfectly reasonable. I think maybe a lot of people understood the thread in that way.

[Phoenix]

To be fair, the OP was asking in the context of a 2nd option on a title team. For that you could choose Pippen and it's perfectly reasonable. I think maybe a lot of people understood the thread in that way.

It's the only logical answer really because we got a decade of Scottie in that role which consumed the entirety of his peak and prime. Lebron and Wade were like 1a/1b in 2011, and Wade didn't really drop to '2nd fiddle' status until 2012, and while still in his prime we had already seen his peak. Pippen's 'jack of trades' skillset made him ideal for that role, whereas Wade was a natural 1st option( mostly because he has first option scoring ability).

[Bawkish]

It's the only logical answer really because we got a decade of Scottie in that role which consumed the entirety of his peak and prime. Lebron and Wade were like 1a/1b in 2011, and Wade didn't really drop to '2nd fiddle' status until 2012, and while still in his prime we had already seen his peak. Pippen's 'jack of trades' skillset made him ideal for that role, whereas Wade was a natural 1st option( mostly because he has first option scoring ability).

Wait til you see some Piptard argue that 1994 Pip could carry the 95-98 Bulls even without MJ

[SaintzFury13]

Wait til you see some Piptard argue that 1994 Pip could carry the 95-98 Bulls even without MJ

With this website, anything's possible.

[TheMan]

Peak Wade was better than Pippen but would be kind of redundant playing next to MJ, unlike Pippen. :confusedshrug:

These comparisons are kinda unrealistic.

Speaking of Pippen, I watched an old Bulls vs Lakers game last night and MJ was absolutely CARRIED all game. He went something like 7-30 from the field but Pippen and Kukoc saved his ass. MJ was at a point where he just refused to shoot anymore unless it was a free throw. Still got something like 29 points but was absolutely HORRENDOUS. Unlike Pippen.

But anyway, carry on...

What game was this? YouTube videos always have what year the game was from.

[Shogon]

Wade was a better scorer. That's literally it.

[97 bulls]

What game was this? YouTube videos always have what year the game was from.

He is talking about that game vs the Lakers in the 96-97 season when the Bulls came back to beat the Lakers after being down by like 20 pts.

[97 bulls]

The poll results PROVE ISH has little credibility. A lot of Brons and their alts posting on this site. Wade is a tier above Pip. Pip is a second fiddle. Wade dominated a finals series as "the man". Wade vs Kobe is a decent convo.

Funny after this post. 5 votes show up for Wade. After like 2 days of no movement. Lol

[3ba11]

Did Pippen thank MJ for retiring so he could experience 1st option in his career?.. Otherwise he never would've been a 1st option.

He needed to attend Jordan's Three-Peat School of Organic Championships and even then his raw production rate as 1st option equaled Larry Hughes' peak and his playoff performance was worse than Pandemic P.

So he wasn't a 1st option

And Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't a 1st option (every series except 1994).. His frequency of getting outscored coupled with a low ppg and worst-ever efficiency means he wasn't a 2nd option.

So he wasn't even a 2nd option and only got to play one alongside the goat scorer and clutch player.

So cut the crap.. Pippen is a leading member of the low-efficiency defender class like Simmons, Roberson, Gerald Wallace or Hughes

[3ba11]

Did Pippen thank MJ for retiring so he could experience 1st option in his career?.. Otherwise he never would've been a 1st option.

He needed to attend Jordan's Three-Peat School of Organic Championships and even then his raw production rate as 1st option equaled Larry Hughes' peak and his playoff performance was worse than Pandemic P.

So he wasn't a 1st option

And Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't a 1st option (every series except 1994).. His frequency of getting outscored coupled with a low ppg and worst-ever efficiency means he wasn't a 2nd option.

So he wasn't even a 2nd option and only got to play one alongside the goat scorer and clutch player.

So cut the crap.. Pippen is a leading member of the low-efficiency defender class like Simmons, Roberson, Gerald Wallace or Hughes


Anyone?

[DoctorP]

D Whistle. Easy.

[3ba11]

Did Pippen thank MJ for retiring so he could experience 1st option in his career?.. Otherwise he never would've been a 1st option.

He needed to attend Jordan's Three-Peat School of Organic Championships and even then his raw production rate as 1st option equaled Larry Hughes' peak and his playoff performance was worse than Pandemic P.

So he wasn't a 1st option

And Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't a 1st option (every series except 1994).. His frequency of getting outscored coupled with a low ppg and worst-ever efficiency means he wasn't a 2nd option.

So he wasn't even a 2nd option and only got to play one alongside the goat scorer and clutch player.

So cut the crap.. Pippen is a leading member of the low-efficiency defender class like Simmons, Roberson, Gerald Wallace or Hughes


https://c.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAC/accomplished-job.gif

[tpols]

Wade was a better scorer. That's literally it.

Dirk was literally only a better scorer as well yet as a franchise cornerstone undoubtedly better than pippen. That's a weak argument.

Especially so since Wade was a great guard defender.

[aceman]

Dirk was literally only a better scorer as well yet as a franchise cornerstone undoubtedly better than pippen. That's a weak argument.

Especially so since Wade was a great guard defender.

When Pippen was best player on his team that team outperformed Miami with Wade as sole star.

[3ba11]

When Pippen was best player on his team that team outperformed Miami with Wade as sole star.


You're referring to the 94' team that was at an apex (3-peat) and living off that luster - but they were borderline lottery in 95', so Pippen can't grow a team every year like Jordan, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Malone or any other elite 1st option. He had 1 okay regular season based off the 3-peat and then he was borderline lottery any other year like we saw in 95' - he destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years

[3ba11]

Since Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 17 of 17 series that he didn't play alongside MJ or on the Bulls, he wasn't a real 2nd option and only got to play one alongside the goat scorer and clutch player.. Literally

[aceman]

You're referring to the 94' team that was at an apex (3-peat) and living off that luster - but they were borderline lottery in 95', so Pippen can't grow a team every year like Jordan, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Malone or any other elite 1st option. He had 1 okay regular season based off the 3-peat and then he was borderline lottery any other year like we saw in 95' - he destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years

Lost main scorer which didn't hurt much & then top rebounder & inside defender which hurt more. Both times Pippen took on those roles as stats show. Interesting as leader with little help, record of Pippen's team may exceed those of wade & even mj...

[HALLandOATES]

Wade is top 15 talent ever …how is this a question?

Pippen is maybe top 50-75 realistically

[tpols]

When Pippen was best player on his team that team outperformed Miami with Wade as sole star.

What? Wade won a title as a superstar with Miami. Pippens best finish as a #1 was the 2nd round.

:biggums:

I swear clowns just making shit up nowadays. Dirk led two Finals teams and one of the most impressive rings ever as a superstar with Jason Terry as his 2nd option. Pippen isn't even close.

[aceman]

What? Wade won a title as a superstar with Miami. Pippens best finish as a #1 was the 2nd round.

:biggums:

I swear clowns just making shit up nowadays. Dirk led two Finals teams and one of the most impressive rings ever as a superstar with Jason Terry as his 2nd option. Pippen isn't even close.

OK, so shaq never played in Miami or lebron either?!

Dirk brought team one championship but Pippen gave bulls 6, but hey world view of alpha's & beta's only values scoring

[tpols]

OK, so shaq never played in Miami or lebron either?!

Dirk brought team one championship but Pippen gave bulls 6, but hey world view of alpha's & beta's only values scoring

Shaq averaged 13/10 in the 2006 Finals. Those are Horace Grant numbers.

Pippen didn't bring anybody 6 rings. Michael Jordan did. What the fook are you smoking mate?

The Bulls were literally a 2nd round ass whooping with Pippen at the helm and 6 time champion with MJ at it.

[97 bulls]

Shaq averaged 13/10 in the 2006 Finals. Those are Horace Grant numbers.

Pippen didn't bring anybody 6 rings. Michael Jordan did. What the fook are you smoking mate?

The Bulls were literally a 2nd round ass whooping with Pippen at the helm and 6 time champion with MJ at it.

This is a false equalvalent. You can't compare Pippen in 94 leading the Bulls to MJ and his six titles. Let's not act like Pippen didn't play a huge role in all six of those title runs. Pippens number two was Jordan's number 3. A fair comparison would be the first half of the 98 season and 94. And there wasn't really much of a difference.

[Axe]

What? Wade won a title as a superstar with Miami. Pippens best finish as a #1 was the 2nd round.

:biggums:

I swear clowns just making shit up nowadays. Dirk led two Finals teams and one of the most impressive rings ever as a superstar with Jason Terry as his 2nd option. Pippen isn't even close.
As if wade never had shaq by his side when they won the ring 15 years ago. Try again.

[Axe]

OK, so shaq never played in Miami or lebron either?!

Dirk brought team one championship but Pippen gave bulls 6, but hey world view of alpha's & beta's only values scoring
Typical thurston lol. He thinks curry is also better than kong.

[3ba11]

This is a false equalvalent. You can't compare Pippen in 94 leading the Bulls to MJ and his six titles. Let's not act like Pippen didn't play a huge role in all six of those title runs. Pippens number two was Jordan's number 3. A fair comparison would be the first half of the 98 season and 94. And there wasn't really much of a difference.


Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to carry him, otherwise he wasn't a 2nd option and was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer 100% of the time without MJ or the Bulls system (17 of 17 series)

[3ba11]

Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to carry him, otherwise he wasn't a 2nd option and was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer 100% of the time without MJ or the Bulls system (17 of 17 series)



^^^ some damning facts indeed

[HoopsNY]

When Pippen was best player on his team that team outperformed Miami with Wade as sole star.

What are you really comparing this to? Take 2009-10 for example, Wade led that team to a 47 win season and had to face the stacked Celtics in the 1st round.

By comparison, Pippen had the '95 team on a 43 win pace. It's not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Wade '10: 27/5/7/2/1 on 48%
Wade PS: 33/6/7/2/2 on 56%

RS Advanced

PER: 28.0
TS%: 56%
OWS: 8.5
DWS: 4.6
WS: 13.1
WS/48: 22.4
OBPM: 7.1
DBPM: 2.1
BPM: 9.2
VORP: 7.9

Pippen '95: 21/8/5/3/1 on 48%
Pippen PS: 18/9/6/1/1 on 44%

PER: 22.6
TS%: 56%
OWS: 5.1
DWS: 6.7
WS: 11.8
WS/48: 18.8
OBPM: 4.4
DBPM: 3.3
BPM: 7.7
VORP: 7.2

And keep in mind, Pippen's offensive numbers are somewhat skewed due to a shortened 3 point line.

[3ba11]

What are you really comparing this to? Take 2009-10 for example, Wade led that team to a 47 win season and had to face the stacked Celtics in the 1st round.

By comparison, Pippen had the '95 team on a 43 win pace. It's not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Wade '10: 27/5/7/2/1 on 48%
Wade PS: 33/6/7/2/2 on 56%

RS Advanced

TS%: 56%
OWS: 8.5
DWS: 4.6
WS: 13.1
WS/48: 22.4
OBPM: 7.1
DBPM: 2.1
BPM: 9.2
VORP: 7.9

Pippen '95: 21/8/5/3/1 on 48%
Pippen PS: 18/9/6/1/1 on 44%

TS%: 56%
OWS: 5.1
DWS: 6.7
WS: 11.8
WS/48: 18.8
OBPM: 4.4
DBPM: 3.3
BPM: 7.7
VORP: 7.2

And keep in mind, Pippen's offensive numbers are somewhat skewed due to a shortened 3 point line.


^^^ that confirms that Wade was far superior as a 1st option

And 2012 Wade had a 26 PER and was higher than any version of Pippen across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, scoring)

So it's confirmed that Wade > Pippen as a 1st and 2nd option

Ultimately, Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to carry him, otherwise he wasn't a 2nd option and was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer 100% of the time without MJ or the Bulls system (17 of 17 series)

[aceman]

What are you really comparing this to? Take 2009-10 for example, Wade led that team to a 47 win season and had to face the stacked Celtics in the 1st round.

By comparison, Pippen had the '95 team on a 43 win pace. It's not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Wade '10: 27/5/7/2/1 on 48%
Wade PS: 33/6/7/2/2 on 56%

RS Advanced

PER: 28.0
TS%: 56%
OWS: 8.5
DWS: 4.6
WS: 13.1
WS/48: 22.4
OBPM: 7.1
DBPM: 2.1
BPM: 9.2
VORP: 7.9

Pippen '95: 21/8/5/3/1 on 48%
Pippen PS: 18/9/6/1/1 on 44%

PER: 22.6
TS%: 56%
OWS: 5.1
DWS: 6.7
WS: 11.8
WS/48: 18.8
OBPM: 4.4
DBPM: 3.3
BPM: 7.7
VORP: 7.2

And keep in mind, Pippen's offensive numbers are somewhat skewed due to a shortened 3 point line.

Looks pretty close to me & looking at placing within league very similar numbers, so doesn't help argument wade is super elite & pippen was not.

One thing is for sure Wade scored more but Pippen was a defensive star leading league in defensive rating in 1994-95. He also put good rebounding numbers with no front court support & defended far more positions including the 4.

[HoopsNY]

Looks pretty close to me & looking at placing within league very similar numbers, so doesn't help argument wade is super elite & pippen was not.

One thing is for sure Wade scored more but Pippen was a defensive star leading league in defensive rating in 1994-95. He also put good rebounding numbers with no front court support & defended far more positions including the 4.

This is an about face. You can't go from, "The team outperformed Miami when Wade was the sole star," to, "Those numbers are pretty close." It just isn't true.

And the numbers aren't similar. Wade exceeded him by a good margin. Did you look at Wade's performance against Boston? That's an elite defensive team.

Fact is, your assessment was incorrect and Wade's 2010 season/playoffs proves it. And no one said Pippen wasn't elite. Or at least, I didn't.

[97 bulls]

What are you really comparing this to? Take 2009-10 for example, Wade led that team to a 47 win season and had to face the stacked Celtics in the 1st round.

By comparison, Pippen had the '95 team on a 43 win pace. It's not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Wade '10: 27/5/7/2/1 on 48%
Wade PS: 33/6/7/2/2 on 56%

RS Advanced

PER: 28.0
TS%: 56%
OWS: 8.5
DWS: 4.6
WS: 13.1
WS/48: 22.4
OBPM: 7.1
DBPM: 2.1
BPM: 9.2
VORP: 7.9

Pippen '95: 21/8/5/3/1 on 48%
Pippen PS: 18/9/6/1/1 on 44%

PER: 22.6
TS%: 56%
OWS: 5.1
DWS: 6.7
WS: 11.8
WS/48: 18.8
OBPM: 4.4
DBPM: 3.3
BPM: 7.7
VORP: 7.2

And keep in mind, Pippen's offensive numbers are somewhat skewed due to a shortened 3 point line.

Why you continue to do this is beyond reason. Let me ask you a question. Surely you must feel the 96 Bulls are the greatest team ever seeing as how they own the best record in NBA history from game 1 of the regular season to the final game of the season championship. Am I right?

[HoopsNY]

Why you continue to do this is beyond reason. Let me ask you a question. Surely you must feel the 96 Bulls are the greatest team ever seeing as how they own the best record in NBA history from game 1 of the regular season to the final game of the season championship. Am I right?

I'm responding to aceman's claim that Chicago somehow did better. But to answer your question, then I think the '86 Celtics are the greatest team ever.

[97 bulls]

I'm responding to aceman's claim that Chicago somehow did better. But to answer your question, then I think the '86 Celtics are the greatest team ever.

They can't be. Because the Bulls have the better overall record. Or stats. There's no metric statistically that you can use to say the Celtics were better than the Bulls.

[HoopsNY]

They can't be. Because the Bulls have the better overall record. Or stats. There's no metric statistically that you can use to say the Celtics were better than the Bulls.

erm, ok?

[97 bulls]

And as I stated previously, Pippen's greatness is that he's a team player. Wade has publicly acknowledged that he watches his stats. Pippen was about doing what he felt gave his team the best chance to win. That's why you see a noticeable difference the couple times Pippen wasn't on the Bulls vs when Wade wasn't on the Heat.

[97 bulls]

erm, ok?

Lol. You are saying Wade is better due to stats. But then when I ask you about the best team ever, you don't pick the Bulls who have the best win percentage ever (ie the best stats).

[aceman]

This is an about face. You can't go from, "The team outperformed Miami when Wade was the sole star," to, "Those numbers are pretty close." It just isn't true.

And the numbers aren't similar. Wade exceeded him by a good margin. Did you look at Wade's performance against Boston? That's an elite defensive team.

Fact is, your assessment was incorrect and Wade's 2010 season/playoffs proves it. And no one said Pippen wasn't elite. Or at least, I didn't.

Numbers aren't the be all & end all, although those stats show not only was Pippen one of the best performed offensive players in the game, he was the top defender. Again ur only looking at one side of ball & only one aspect of that.

Pippen performed more roles for 95 bulls, pretty much propping up a nonexistent front court. Factor in he was chief ball handler, main scorer & suddenly asked to cover bigs & pick up rebounding slack.

[3ba11]

Lol. You are saying Wade is better due to stats. But then when I ask you about the best team ever, you don't pick the Bulls who have the best win percentage ever (ie the best stats).


86' Celtics had more great players than the 96' Bulls and the #1 defense

[aceman]

I'm responding to aceman's claim that Chicago somehow did better. But to answer your question, then I think the '86 Celtics are the greatest team ever.

Well bulls did manage to win playoff series which Wade didn't in 09 & 10...

[97 bulls]

86' Celtics had more great players than the 96' Bulls and the #1 defense

The 96 Bulls had the number 1 defense as well. And they have more accomplished players to boot.

[3ba11]

Well bulls did manage to win playoff series which Wade didn't in 09 & 10...


Wade won a playoff series in 2016 while getting prime Pippen stats in those Playoffs and nearly making the ECF - he lost the 2nd Round in 7 games just like 94' Pippen.. :confusedshrug:

the difference is that Pippen had a 3-peat team at it's apex that he was in the process of reducing to borderline lottery in 95', while Wade was building the Heat back after Lebron left in 2014 (and injuries in 2015)

That's what any legit star does - Wade, Lebron Kobe and Jordan BUILD teams every year, while Pippen simply had 1 okay regular season on the heels of a 3-peat (apex) and was nothing any other year (lottery in 95')

[97 bulls]

Wade won a playoff series in 2016 while getting prime Pippen stats in those Playoffs and nearly making the ECF - he lost the 2nd Round in 7 games just like 94' Pippen.. :confusedshrug:

the difference is that Pippen had a 3-peat team at it's apex that he was in the process of reducing to borderline lottery in 95', while Wade was building the Heat back after Lebron left in 2014 (and injuries in 2015)

That's what any legit star does - Wade, Lebron Kobe and Jordan BUILD teams every year, while Pippen simply had 1 okay regular season on the heels of a 3-peat (apex) and was nothing any other year (lottery in 95')

Lol they weren't at their apex. Cartwright was old, Paxson was old and Jordan was gone. How can you spe d so much time trying to convince yourself on one end that the Bulls were Jordan and a bunch of bums, then on the other end, try to make the argument that the Bulls should've won without MJ?

[3ba11]

Lol they weren't at their apex. Cartwright was old, Paxson was old and Jordan was gone. How can you spe d so much time trying to convince yourself on one end that the Bulls were Jordan and a bunch of bums, then on the other end, try to make the argument that the Bulls should've won without MJ?


The 94' Bulls kept their core of Pippen/Horace/BJ and upgraded literally every roster spot through the 12th guy

And you guys thought 13-16' Wade sucked only because he'd been reduced to peak Pippen caliber:

Playoffs

16' WADE...... 22.3 per.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 per.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%

[aceman]

The 94' Bulls kept their core of Pippen/Horace/BJ and upgraded literally every roster spot through the 12th guy

And you guys thought 13-16' Wade sucked only because he'd been reduced to peak Pippen caliber:

Playoffs



16' WADE...... 22.3 per.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 per.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%

..& replaced unanimous goat with a CBA player..

[aceman]

Wade won a playoff series in 2016 while getting prime Pippen stats in those Playoffs and nearly making the ECF - he lost the 2nd Round in 7 games just like 94' Pippen.. :confusedshrug:

the difference is that Pippen had a 3-peat team at it's apex that he was in the process of reducing to borderline lottery in 95', while Wade was building the Heat back after Lebron left in 2014 (and injuries in 2015)

That's what any legit star does - Wade, Lebron Kobe and Jordan BUILD teams every year, while Pippen simply had 1 okay regular season on the heels of a 3-peat (apex) and was nothing any other year (lottery in 95')

Great, but 2016 was Chris Bosh's team.

[3ba11]

..& replaced unanimous goat with a CBA player..


As you can see from those stats, peak Pippen = 16' Wade caliber, so winning 6 chips with that caliber is goat

[3ba11]

Great, but 2016 was Chris Bosh's team.


Yes it's amazing that Lebron had "backup" sidekicks like Bosh, but 16' Bosh got hurt midseason and didn't play in PO

So 35-year Wade carried them as far as 94' Pippen, with equal stats

[aceman]

Yes it's amazing that Lebron had "backup" sidekicks like Bosh, but 16' Bosh got hurt midseason and didn't play in PO

So 35-year Wade carried them as far as 94' Pippen, with equal stats

Then Joe Johnson's team, ha...
Better roster altogether. Maybe should be comparing to Pippen's blazer run?!

[3ba11]

.
2012 Wade...... 26.3 PER... 7.9 BPM.. 0.227 ws/48
1994 Pippen.... 23.3 PER.. 7.7 BPM.. 0.197 ws/48


Wade produced more at 2nd option than Pippen did at 1st.

Btw, VORP is based on minutes played and 2012 was a shortened season

[97 bulls]

Yes it's amazing that Lebron had "backup" sidekicks like Bosh, but 16' Bosh got hurt midseason and didn't play in PO

So 35-year Wade carried them as far as 94' Pippen, with equal stats

That team had a better record without Wade than with him. Lol.

[97 bulls]

The 94' Bulls kept their core of Pippen/Horace/BJ and upgraded literally every roster spot through the 12th guy

And you guys thought 13-16' Wade sucked only because he'd been reduced to peak Pippen caliber:

Playoffs

16' WADE...... 22.3 per.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 per.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%

Lol. They lost their best player bro. The goat. And two other core players were old.

[HoopsNY]

Numbers aren't the be all & end all, although those stats show not only was Pippen one of the best performed offensive players in the game, he was the top defender. Again ur only looking at one side of ball & only one aspect of that.

I never said the numbers are the be all end all. Nor did I ever say that he wasn't one of the best performed offensive players in the game in that season.

You mentioned he was a top defender, and surely better than Wade. But 2006-10 Wade was a great defensive player himself. Not to mention, he was an elite playmaker and typically handled the two guard role. So who the one that is really only looking at one side of the ball here?

Wade was a great defensive player and playmaker, together with top tier scoring. He proved all of this in the regular season and the playoffs, and his playoff performances were remarkable.

But all of this obfuscates the original point that you made - that Pippen excelled as the main guy above that of Wade. This isn't true.

Pippen performed more roles for 95 bulls, pretty much propping up a nonexistent front court. Factor in he was chief ball handler, main scorer & suddenly asked to cover bigs & pick up rebounding slack.[/QUOTE]

[HoopsNY]

Lol. You are saying Wade is better due to stats. But then when I ask you about the best team ever, you don't pick the Bulls who have the best win percentage ever (ie the best stats).

It's not just due to stats. You're acting as if Wade had elite support/all-star help in every single season he played, including those within his prime. He didn't.

Wade had to carry an immense load in the 2010 season. His defense was elite, despite him not winning All-Defensive 1st Team honors. Peak Wade was a remarkable defender and simply didn't get enough credit for it as far as accolades are concerned.

This is why I say Wade > Pippen. While he wasn't as great defensively, his defense was still among the best, and his playmaking abilities were just as good. The fact that he could score at a much better clip and be a much better playoff performer makes up for that difference and more.

[97 bulls]

It's not just due to stats. You're acting as if Wade had elite support/all-star help in every single season he played, including those within his prime. He didn't.

Wade had to carry an immense load in the 2010 season. His defense was elite, despite him not winning All-Defensive 1st Team honors. Peak Wade was a remarkable defender and simply didn't get enough credit for it as far as accolades are concerned.

This is why I say Wade > Pippen. While he wasn't as great defensively, his defense was still among the best, and his playmaking abilities were just as good. The fact that he could score at a much better clip and be a much better playoff performer makes up for that difference and more.

But that's the thing, when was he a better playoff performer? In 2006? Arguably the most controversial performance ever? Perhaps 2007 when Kirk Hinrick shut him down? Or 2011? When his heavily favored Heat team lost? Or when James carried him to two Championships?

[3ba11]

But that's the thing, when was he a better playoff performer? In 2006? Arguably the most controversial performance ever? Perhaps 2007 when Kirk Hinrick shut him down? Or 2011? When his heavily favored Heat team lost? Or when James carried him to two Championships?


Old Wade's 2016 run was the same as peak Pippen's 94' run - they both lost the 2nd Round in 7 games with the same stats.

the difference is that Pippen had a 3-peat team at it's apex that he was in the process of reducing to borderline lottery in 95', while Wade was building the Heat back after Lebron left in 2014 (and injuries in 2015)

That's what any legit star is expected to do like Wade, Lebron Kobe and Jordan - they BUILD teams every year, while Pippen simply had 1 okay regular season on the heels of a 3-peat (apex) and was nothing any other year (lottery in 95')

[97 bulls]

Old Wade's 2016 run was the same as peak Pippen's 94' run - they both lost the 2nd Round in 7 games with the same stats.

the difference is that Pippen had a 3-peat team at it's apex that he was in the process of reducing to borderline lottery in 95', while Wade was building the Heat back after Lebron left in 2014 (and injuries in 2015)

That's what any legit star is expected to do like Wade, Lebron Kobe and Jordan - they BUILD teams every year, while Pippen simply had 1 okay regular season on the heels of a 3-peat (apex) and was nothing any other year (lottery in 95')

You can't consider "bums" (as you call them) a 3pt apex team. You completely dismissed my rebuttal. The core of that 3pt was Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Paxon, and Cartwright. Cartwright and Paxson were old and Jordan was gone. Again, how can you say, that MJ was the only reason the Bulls won, then say the Bulls should've won without MJ.

Old ass Pippen had the Blazers within one quarter of making it to the Finals. There's not an argument you can present that I can't refute. You're arguments are a joke.

[3ba11]

You can't consider "bums" (as you call them) a 3pt apex team. You completely dismissed my rebuttal. The core of that 3pt was Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Paxon, and Cartwright. Cartwright and Paxson were old and Jordan was gone. Again, how can you say, that MJ was the only reason the Bulls won, then say the Bulls should've won without MJ.

Old ass Pippen had the Blazers within one quarter of making it to the Finals. There's not an argument you can present that I can't refute. You're arguments are a joke.


You made my point

Old Cartwright was replaced in the starting lineup by Longley, who produced more than Cartwright.

Old Parson was replaced by Kerr, who also produced more

Outside of the Pippen/Horace/BJ core, the Bulls upgraded every roster spot thru the 12th guy, including the addition of Kukoc (another horace/pippen-caliber player)

And the Blazers had about 10 guys considered better than Pippen, so you're hurting Pippen's case by bringing up years that he wasn't 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan (the goat scorer to carry him), and otherwise wasn't capable of 2nd option - he was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer 100% of the time without MJ or the 3-peat Bulls (17 of 17 series).

So his high frequency of getting outscored coupled and low ppg show that he wasn't a 2nd option, while his worst-ever efficiency confirmed that he couldn't handle the load/volume

[97 bulls]

You made my point

Old Cartwright was replaced in the starting lineup by Longley, who produced more than Cartwright.
Longley wasn't on the 1st 3pt Bulls


Old Parson was replaced by Kerr, who also produced more
Kerr wasn't on the first 3pt Bulls


Outside of the Pippen/Horace/BJ core, the Bulls upgraded every roster spot thru the 12th guy, including the addition of Kukoc (another horace/pippen-caliber player)

Kukoc wasnt on the 1st 3pt Bulls. And you fail to acknowledge the most important cog. Michael Jordan. 5 Honda Civics ain't worth a Bugatti. You can't promote the crazy notion that Jordan won by himself, then formulate an argument that the Bulls should've been able to win without Jordan. Especially when they didn't replace him. Sorry bro. Sports don't work that way. That's why great teams fall. Nobody is guaranteed talent. You've actually made my argument. Many of the key players on the 94 Bulls never won a championship by then. An you just admitted such. You just blew up your own "3pt chemistry " argument. Lol



And the Blazers had about 10 guys considered better than Pippen, so you're hurting Pippen's case by bringing up years that he wasn't 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan (the goat scorer to carry him), and otherwise wasn't capable of 2nd option - he was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer 100% of the time without MJ or the 3-peat Bulls (17 of 17 series).

So his high frequency of getting outscored coupled and low ppg show that he wasn't a 2nd option, while his worst-ever efficiency confirmed that he couldn't handle the load/volume

You're the one that goes around trying to convince people that Scottie Pippen at 35 years old should've led the Blazers to a championship. Again, pick a side. I've never seen a person blatantly disregard their own talking points and then contradict themselves.

And you're not gonna corner me into that silly argument about scoring. Pippens impact has been proven to be superior to Wade's. Those are the facts. Deal with it.

[3ba11]

.
Final Voting Tally: 27-20 Wade wins


Jordan guarded Magic for the vast majority of the 91' Finals - literally 70% of the possessions and basically all of Games 1, 4, and 5.... Jordan was also the primary defender on Drexler in 92', or Miller, Payton and Rod Strickland.. Pippen was only the primary defender on Penny, who torched him in 96'.

Pippen was an Iggy-caliber player inflated by the winning spotlight into top 30 all-time, aka the most overrated player ever.. He was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry, otherwise he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89', 99').

He was the only 90's sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player that could dominate - only Pippen failed to get elite ppg, rpg, or apg in any series. His peak capability of 22/5 is among the lowest for a sidekick and never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series (always carried).. He forced Jordan to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)... Heck, the worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, who was basically Damian Lillard on the 90' and 92' Finals runs - this includes a domination in the WCF with 26/6/8 on 52% and 53% on threes (6 attempts).. Every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that could dominate like this except Pippen.

Ultimately, everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers at sidekick to win multiple chips except MJ.. Only MJ lacked a go-to teammate.. Heck, guys like Kukoc, Kerr, or Paxson were chosen above Pippen in the clutch.. Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 chips, while Pippen hit zero.. Pippen is the only guy that failed to reach peak-Horry level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size - he's 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals..

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including 2 Finals of 15 ppg.. In the 93' Playoffs, he had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).. MJ was #2 in dpoy that year while Pippen didn't place.. Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89-91

[TheGoatest]

Any 90s all-defensive team version of The Great Scott Pippen destroys the non-all-defensive 15.9 ppg in the playoffs averaging Wade.

[3ba11]

Any 90s all-defensive team version of The Great Scott Pippen destroys the non-all-defensive 15.9 ppg in the playoffs averaging Wade.


Wade shared the sidekick scoring burden with a 3rd star, while Pippen had the sidekick scoring role to himself - he infact couldn't handle this load as evidenced by his below-league-average true shooting for every year of his playoff career except 89-91... Low efficiency = shoot less

Furthermore, a super-team was massive overkill in that East, so those stats are irrelevant - Wade always averaged within 5 points of Lebron in the Finals and led Lebron in the 11' Finals.. Lebron had 3 different sidekicks match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20').

Since Lebron usually had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, he didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing max defensive attention is inflated stats compared to Jordan, who carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[8Ball]

Espn already has Pippen ranked higher than wade all time so the consensus has been decided on it.

Its mainstream opinion at this point.

[3ba11]

Espn already has Pippen ranked higher than wade all time so the consensus has been decided on it.

Its mainstream opinion at this point.


To answer your question...


.
STATISTICAL EVIDENCE


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)'.....,..... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)........... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Comparing Iggy & Pippen as 1st options in Playoffs

Iguodala 2009 Playoffs vs Dwight..... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

Pippen 1994 Playoffs vs Ewing.......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)



CONCLUSION:

Sidekicks with multiple chips like Pippen and Klay are the most overrated player group ever - they perform at an Iggy or Hornacek level (above), but get inflated to top 30 or 50 all-time by the winning spotlight..

That's literally what happens... Check the stats above...

Imagine Iggy and Hornacek being top 50 all-time... Oh wait.. it happened.
due to winning spotlight and organic association with players that changed an era (MJ, Curry).
.

[TheGoatest]

Espn already has Pippen ranked higher than wade all time so the consensus has been decided on it.

Its mainstream opinion at this point.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of Wade's career (background for all-time ranking) was based on seasons where he played without LeBron, which he did only after his prime for 4 seasons.
The Great Scott Pippen on the other hand was for the majority of his best years forced to play with the stat-suffocating jordon, whose teammates, 7 of them including The Great Scott Pippen, went on to average career highs in ppg and 2 of them becoming all-stars, as soon as jordon went on his sabbatical in 1993.
Yet despite this handicap, they still rank The Great Scott Pippen higher than Wade. :applause:

[Phoenix]

So here we have 3bum on a pro-Wade crusade, yet on a separate thread yesterday he's a 'GOAT level underachiever' if not a for a miracle Ray Allen three-pointer that plays no bearing on Wade being a better or worse player for it:


Not all organic winners can make the top 10

Some must be left off

Both Wade and Kawhi won organically, but I think Kawhi's peak was a little better on both ends..

Specifically, he had better jumpshooting skill, so his teammate fits and chemistry was better.. He fit into a system, while 06' Wade benefitted from getting Shaq and Zo - it was a more talent-based victory, while Kawhi mastered brand of ball..

Wade's weaker brand and chemistry manifested itself in massive debacles alongside Lebron in 11, 14', and nearly 13'... One shot by Allen turned Wade's career from goat-caliber underachiver to viable

How many posts does 3bum have in here sucking off Wade? Oh I see, Scottie Pippen is the other half of the conversation.

How one manages to juggle so many narratives is dizzying.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Wade has 3 seasons as the better player (06, 09,10)

But pippen has the better prime and the better career.

Wade was fixing to be Bill Walton before he played with LeBron.

Pippen is just more reliable, more consistent, way better defense and longevity.

Going with pippen here unless you put extreme value on 3 years.

[Phoenix]

Wade was fixing to be Bill Walton before he played with LeBron.



Wade pre-Lebron:

7 seasons: 471 games. 25/7/5. 57% TS. 26 PER. 6 time all-star. NBA title. FMVP. Scoring title. 3 time All-Defense.5 time All-NBA

Bill Walton career:

10 seasons. 468 games. 13/11/3. 55% TS. 20 PER. 2 time all-star. Block title. Rebounding title. 2 time All-Defense. 2 time All-NBA. MVP

Walton has the MVP. Wade's pre-Lebron run otherwise shits on everything Bill Walton did. Hell, Wade PLAYED more games in 7 seasons than Walton for his career, since I assume your point is that Wade was as injury-prone, which isn't remotely close. Wade's pre-Lebron run was closer to Kobe's post-Shaq career than it was Bill Walton's.

Now STFU and drink a bottle of Drano you trolling little c*unt.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Wade pre-Lebron:

7 seasons: 471 games. 25/7/5. 57% TS. 26 PER. 6 time all-star. NBA title. FMVP. Scoring title. 3 time All-Defense.5 time All-NBA

Bill Walton career:

10 seasons. 468 games. 13/11/3. 55% TS. 20 PER. 2 time all-star. Block title. Rebounding title. 2 time All-Defense. 2 time All-NBA. MVP

Walton has the MVP. Wade's pre-Lebron run otherwise shits on everything Bill Walton did. Hell, Wade PLAYED more games in 7 seasons than Walton for his career, since I assume your point is that Wade was as injury-prone, which isn't remotely close. Wade's pre-Lebron run was closer to Kobe's post-Shaq career than it was Bill Walton's.

Now STFU and drink a bottle of Drano you trolling little c*unt.

He had two seasons 2006 and 2010 when he hit 20% win share playoffs. Only made two all nba 1st teams.

That was his career before 2011. Very similar to bill walton before he joined celtics.

Then he was a sidekick in 2012 before becoming a role player the rest of his career.

How the hell is that trolling? Now take a walk and spend your time watching the 7-10 career playoff fat bitch in your avatar and go hang yourself

[Phoenix]

He had two seasons 2006 and 2010 when he hit 20% win share playoffs. Only made two all nba 1st teams.

That was his career before 2011. Very similar to bill walton before he joined celtics.

Then he was a sidekick in 2012 before becoming a role player the rest of his career.

How the hell is that trolling? Now take a walk and spend your time watching the 7-10 career playoff fat bitch in your avatar and go hang yourself

Walton likely only got the first team over Kareem in 78 because Portland had the much better record. Kareem had higher PPG, field goal %, steals, blocks.

All-NBA first team counting is a dumb hill to die on if Wade had two of them before joining Lebron, and Walton only managed one in 10 seasons. That's how it's trolling.

In fact Wade by 2006( his third season) already had the same total number of All-NBA teams as Walton in 10 seasons. That's how it's trolling.

Wade had higher PPG, PER, TS%, First teams, 2nd teams, all star selections, All defensive teams pre-Lebron than Walton had in 10 seasons. That's how it's trolling.

Walton was a role player for 2/3 of his career. Wade was still making All-NBA teams after 10 seasons. Walton in season 10 was dropping 3/3. That's how it's trolling.

Now go deepthroat a shotgun bitch and spare your aids-ridden mother the burden of your useless existence.

[8Ball]

To answer your question...


.
STATISTICAL EVIDENCE


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)'.....,..... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)........... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Comparing Iggy & Pippen as 1st options in Playoffs

Iguodala 2009 Playoffs vs Dwight..... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

Pippen 1994 Playoffs vs Ewing.......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)



CONCLUSION:

Sidekicks with multiple chips like Pippen and Klay are the most overrated player group ever - they perform at an Iggy or Hornacek level (above), but get inflated to top 30 or 50 all-time by the winning spotlight..

That's literally what happens... Check the stats above...

Imagine Iggy and Hornacek being top 50 all-time... Oh wait.. it happened.
due to winning spotlight and organic association with players that changed an era (MJ, Curry).
.

Its consensus that Pippen is ranked higher than Wade.

Deal with it.

[John8204]

Honestly...not all All-NBA selections are equal...

Kareem, Bill Walton, Dave Cowens, Moses Malone, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, Bob Mcadoo, Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed

That's 9 centers that made the top 75 list

Wade was competing with Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Gilbert Arenas, Deron Williams

Those guys aren't in the Hall of Fame.

Walton won the greatest chip of all-time because the 77' Blazers were the worst team to ever win. He did so beating the two best players of the era...Kareem and Dr. J.

[Phoenix]

Honestly...not all All-NBA selections are equal...

Kareem, Bill Walton, Dave Cowens, Moses Malone, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, Bob Mcadoo, Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed

That's 9 centers that made the top 75 list

Wade was competing with Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Gilbert Arenas, Deron Williams

Those guys aren't in the Hall of Fame.

Walton won the greatest chip of all-time because the 77' Blazers were the worst team to ever win. He did so beating the two best players of the era...Kareem and Dr. J.

That's incredibly disingenuous. The only thing I agree with is that you can't really compare all-NBA teams between players from different positions and in different eras.

The disingenuous part? First, you ran off that list of guards for Wade while omitting the following players, all of which had all-NBA nods during Wade's prime, all of which are top 75 players, all of which are either HOF or obviously first ballots when eligible:

Kobe Bryant. Ray Allen. Steve Nash. Chris Paul. Westbrook. James Harden. Iverson

Furthermore, you clearly ran off a list of prominent 70's centers but let's take a closer examination starting with Walton joining the league in 75:

Chamberlain retired in 73. Moses wasn't an MVP level talent till 79. Thurmond's last all-star level season was 74. Unseld's last all-star season was 75. Willis Reed retired in 74. So out of the 8 centers you listed as Walton's competition, the majority were either washed, only relevant after Walton's brief peak, or RETIRED. His 'actual' competition, as in they were stars/MVP level at the same time as Walton: Kareem, McAdoo, and Cowens.

[John8204]

That's incredibly disingenuous. The only thing I agree with is that you can't really compare all-NBA teams between players from different positions and in different eras.

The disingenuous part? First, you ran off that list of guards for Wade while omitting the following players, all of which had all-NBA nods during Wade's prime, all of which are top 75 players, all of which are either HOF or obviously first ballots when eligible:

Kobe Bryant. Ray Allen. Steve Nash. Chris Paul. Westbrook. James Harden. Iverson

Furthermore, you clearly ran off a list of prominent 70's centers but let's take a closer examination starting with Walton joining the league in 75:

Chamberlain retired in 73. Moses wasn't an MVP level talent till 79. Thurmond's last all-star level season was 74. Unseld's last all-star season was 75. Willis Reed retired in 74. So out of the 8 centers you listed as Walton's competition, the majority were either washed, only relevant after Walton's brief peak, or RETIRED. His 'actual' competition, as in they were stars/MVP level at the same time as Walton: Kareem, McAdoo, and Cowens.

Eh...I was pointing out the SG's that made All-NBA that weren't getting into the Hall. The guys you listed...Nash, Paul, Westbrook really were PG's. The point with Walton was making all-NBA as a center in the 70's you had to be MVP level. A number of those guys retired because the competition was so high those career's were also cut short. The 70's really was a meat grinder for centers...Wade on the other hand as a guard should have been able to last much longer than he actually did as the game got softer.

[WhiteKyrie]

Depends what the question is.

As a second fiddle, the edge might go to Pippen. Forcing Wade to be a second fiddle is wasting his talent and when Wade is taking 15-16 shots a game, Pippen's edge on defense can win out. I'd take 2012 Wade over Pippen but I'd take Pippen over 2013 and 2014 Wade.

However both as the best player on their team, it isn't particularly close. It's clearly Wade.

The only correct answer. The answer is D-Wade. Flash is closer to Pippen’s greatest strength, defensive impact, than Pippen is to Wade’s greatest strength, which is offensive impact. Wade is the better player. Better alpha guy. A good sidekick but a waste of his abilities so Pippen can maximize himself more as a supplemental player.

[Phoenix]

Eh...I was pointing out the SG's that made All-NBA that weren't getting into the Hall. The guys you listed...Nash, Paul, Westbrook really were PG's. The point with Walton was making all-NBA as a center in the 70's you had to be MVP level. A number of those guys retired because the competition was so high those career's were also cut short. The 70's really was a meat grinder for centers...Wade on the other hand as a guard should have been able to last much longer than he actually did as the game got softer.

All-NBA teams don't differentiate 'point' and 'shooting' guard though. Hence why in 2009, for example, Kobe AND Wade were the all-NBA first guards even though they're both technically shooting guards. Some years it was Kobe and Nash, or Kobe and CP3. The point being that Wade's competition wasn't restricted to guys like Kobe and Ray Allen, he was also competing with guys like CP3 and Nash. And ALL of these guys were in their peaks/primes. And hell, nobody in their right mind would say Steve Nash was better than Wade around 2006 or 2007. Shit, he was trending for MVP in 2007 before he injured his shoulder( which by extension, means he no doubt would have been first team with Kobe).

As far as why guys retired for the reasons you give isn't really relevant to my point. It's simply erroneous to say Wilt Chamberlain and Willis Reed were 'competing' with Walton when both of them had retired before he entered the league. Like, does that really need to be debated? Wes Unseld dropping 8ppg or Thurmond 6ppg in 1977 isn't exactly 'competition' either. Those guys heydays were long past. Again, the 70s had a number of HOF centers but what level they were playing at, or if they were even in the league when Walton was, aren't factors you merely handwave away as insignificant tidbits of info.

[HoopsNY]

The only correct answer. The answer is D-Wade. Flash is closer to Pippen’s greatest strength, defensive impact, than Pippen is to Wade’s greatest strength, which is offensive impact. Wade is the better player. Better alpha guy. A good sidekick but a waste of his abilities so Pippen can maximize himself more as a supplemental player.

I like this analogy and I think it really puts things into perspective given that Wade's defensive ability was great and closer to Pippen than Pippen's offensive ability being closer to Wade.

[Phoenix]

I like this analogy and I think it really puts things into perspective given that Wade's defensive ability was great and closer to Pippen than Pippen's offensive ability being closer to Wade.

Also that having Wade play the '2nd guy', while he was able to adjust, wasn't probably the best role for him but necessary for the Heat to win. In terms of pairing skillsets Lebron and Wade were never really 'ideal'. I think had they teamed up in, say, 2008 Wade could have played the leading scorer role with Lebron being like a 'Super Pippen' jack of all trades and that probably works out better than having them play 'my turn, your turn' like in 2011.

[j3lademaster]

Also that having Wade play the '2nd guy', while he was able to adjust, wasn't probably the best role for him but necessary for the Heat to win. In terms of pairing skillsets Lebron and Wade were never really 'ideal'. I think had they teamed up in, say, 2008 Wade could have played the leading scorer role with Lebron being like a 'Super Pippen' jack of all trades and that probably works out better than having them play 'my turn, your turn' like in 2011.Yup. Sometimes having the right player benefits you more than having the better player. Wade is easily the better player, but Pippen just fit MJ better than Wade fitting with Lebron. Lebron's teammate with the best complementary skillset to his was probably Kyrie, but mentally it just seemed like Kyrie was never too crazy about being his duo.

[97 bulls]

I like this analogy and I think it really puts things into perspective given that Wade's defensive ability was great and closer to Pippen than Pippen's offensive ability being closer to Wade.

That's not fair. We never got to see 4-5 years of Pippen with a team built and catered to his strengths. Even still, in a high defense era, Pippe. Averaged 22 ppg. Which was top 8 that year. Pippen is top 10 Alltime on most people's defense list. How many times will you see Dwyane Wade on anybodys top 20 list much less top 10.

[NBAGOAT]

That's not fair. We never got to see 4-5 years of Pippen with a team built and catered to his strengths. Even still, in a high defense era, Pippe. Averaged 22 ppg. Which was top 8 that year. Pippen is top 10 Alltime on most people's defense list. How many times will you see Dwyane Wade on anybodys top 20 list much less top 10.

you're right about defense but wade's one of the best offensive players in the league in his prime. Scottie isnt on anyone's top 10. Scottie's main argument over Wade is not having bad knees

[Cold soul]

Peak: clearly Wade
Prime: Wade
Career: Wade

Sorry but Wade is superior player than Scottie Pippen who is underrated but Wade is on whole other level.

[3ba11]

Its consensus that Pippen is ranked higher than Wade.

Although the historical record of performance might.


The historical record shows that Wade was 1st option over peak Lebron in the 11' Playoffs - he was a Kobe-level performer and compared to Kobe/Jordan/West, while Pippen was a secondary producer and behind Kukoc, Kerr or Paxson in the clutch.

Sidekicks with multiple chips like Pippen and Klay are the most overrated player group ever - they perform at an Iggy or Hornacek level but get inflated to top 30 or 50 all-time by the winning spotlight..

That's literally what happens and the stats confirm this

Imagine Iggy and Hornacek being top 50 all-time... Oh wait... it already happened with Pippen/Klay....... due to winning spotlight and organic association with players that changed an era (MJ, Curry).

[97 bulls]

you're right about defense but wade's one of the best offensive players in the league in his prime. Scottie isnt on anyone's top 10. Scottie's main argument over Wade is not having bad knees

That wasn't their argument. The argument is that Wade is closer to Pippen on defense than Pippen is to Wade on offense. Pippen had just two seasons playing without Jordan who has one of the highest usage rates in NBA history and in those two years he was a top 10 scorer as a point forward. Those are the facts. Yes Wade led the league in scoring (when the league changed the rules to help him score easier). But Pippen led the league in defensive rating once, and led the playoffs in defensive rating twice.

Wade is overrated. The difference in the careers of Wade and Pippen boils down to 3 controversial games in the 06 Finals. The other three gqmes, he was trash and he wasn't the focal point of the Dallas defense. Shaq was.

[97 bulls]

The historical record shows that Wade was 1st option over peak Lebron in the 11' Playoffs - he was a Kobe-level performer and compared to Kobe/Jordan/West, while Pippen was a secondary producer and behind Kukoc, Kerr or Paxson in the clutch.

Sidekicks with multiple chips like Pippen and Klay are the most overrated player group ever - they perform at an Iggy or Hornacek level but get inflated to top 30 or 50 all-time by the winning spotlight..

That's literally what happens and the stats confirm this

Imagine Iggy and Hornacek being top 50 all-time... Oh wait... it already happened with Pippen/Klay....... due to winning spotlight and organic association with players that changed an era (MJ, Curry).

Lol. I can't believe you're trying to make a clutch argument for Wade for 2011. You guys seem to forget that WADE LOST TOO in 2011. Clutch Wade also coughed up a 15 point lead to the Mavs in the 4th. Lol. If Wase was such a great defender, why didnt he check Terry or Berrea? Lol. Talk about revisionist history.

[warriorfan]

Lol. I can't believe you're trying to make a clutch argument for Wade for 2011. You guys seem to forget that WADE LOST TOO in 2011. Clutch Wade also coughed up a 15 point lead to the Mavs in the 4th. Lol. If Wase was such a great defender, why didnt he check Terry or Berrea? Lol. Talk about revisionist history.

Fuming.

[tanibanana]

How bad of a match up it would be if Wade-Pippen vs Jordan-LeBron face each other.

[3ba11]

How bad of a match up it would be if Wade-Pippen vs Jordan-LeBron face each other.


You mean Lebron-Pippen (2 chokers) vs MJ-Wade (2 assassin dogs)

2 spotty-shooting ball-dominators (bad fit) vs 2 guys that can fit together (Jordan plays off-ball)

[HoopsNY]

That's not fair. We never got to see 4-5 years of Pippen with a team built and catered to his strengths. Even still, in a high defense era, Pippe. Averaged 22 ppg. Which was top 8 that year. Pippen is top 10 Alltime on most people's defense list. How many times will you see Dwyane Wade on anybodys top 20 list much less top 10.

That still doesn't override what Wade did as a leader. As a sidekick, Wade was outplaying LeBron in the playoffs in 2011. We can't work on the assumption of what would have happened with Pippen with more years over what did happen. It doesn't work that way.

[HoopsNY]

That wasn't their argument. The argument is that Wade is closer to Pippen on defense than Pippen is to Wade on offense. Pippen had just two seasons playing without Jordan who has one of the highest usage rates in NBA history and in those two years he was a top 10 scorer as a point forward. Those are the facts. Yes Wade led the league in scoring (when the league changed the rules to help him score easier). But Pippen led the league in defensive rating once, and led the playoffs in defensive rating twice.

Wade is overrated. The difference in the careers of Wade and Pippen boils down to 3 controversial games in the 06 Finals. The other three gqmes, he was trash and he wasn't the focal point of the Dallas defense. Shaq was.

Again, you're basing your argument on a "what if" rather than a what is. You're isolating data and ignoring the fact that Wade was still a far better playoffs and finals performer than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

How bad of a match up it would be if Wade-Pippen vs Jordan-LeBron face each other.


That still doesn't override what Wade did as a leader. As a sidekick, Wade was outplaying LeBron in the playoffs in 2011. We can't work on the assumption of what would have happened with Pippen with more years over what did happen. It doesn't work that way.

Lol. Really? Again, WADE WASNT THE LEADER. Shaq was.

Wade's "great" series is one of the most controversial stories in all of sports.

Now if we want to talk about what actually happened. Well, The Heat lost as the heavy favorite to the Mavericks. That never happened to Pippen. Pippen has 6 championships to Wade's 4. And seeing as how players play to win (and mind you by your definition we can't apply context) you should feel Pippen is better than Wade.

Pip is the greater winner.

[Baller789]

Lol. Really? Again, WADE WASNT THE LEADER. Shaq was.

Wade's "great" series is one of the most controversial stories in all of sports.

Now if we want to talk about what actually happened. Well, The Heat lost as the heavy favorite to the Mavericks. That never happened to Pippen. Pippen has 6 championships to Wade's 4. And seeing as how players play to win (and mind you by your definition we can't apply context) you should feel Pippen is better than Wade.

Pip is the greater winner.

Funny you say this because I don't recall Pippen having a better finals series than Jordan.

[97 bulls]

Funny you say this because I don't recall Pippen having a better finals series than Jordan.

Probably would've had he been sent to the line at a record pace like D-Whistle.

[3ba11]

Funny you say this because I don't recall Pippen having a better finals series than Jordan.


You mean 95' Horry - Pippen was below peak-Horry:


Finals

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS


^^^ that's why the 95' Rockets probably stop the Bulls' 5-peat (if jordan hadn't retired).

Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 chips, while Pippen hit 0 to win 6.. 6 free chips.. Pippen probably turns into Horry alongside a ball-dominator like Lebron, except Pippen was a bricklayer...

[Axe]

1991 pippen > 2000 kobe

;)

[3ba11]

1991 pippen > 2000 kobe

;)


Pippen's true shooting was below league-average every year of his playoff career except 89-91' and 02', so 91' was the only year where he had a viable load.

That kind of tertiary performance doesn't compare to Kobe, who destroyed Pippen in 99' and 00' -Pippen was outside the bosum of the triangle and therefore a 12 ppg dunker that couldn't score

[Axe]

20.8 ppg > 15.6 ppg

;)

[3ba11]

20.8 ppg > 15.6 ppg

;)


Kobe was better than Pippen ever was from 98' or 99' onwards

Infact, HS freshman Kobe was better in many ways, like scoring

[Axe]

6-0 > 5-2

;)

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Scottie is/was a role player that rode the coattails of Jordan.He did nothing great or spectacular during the championship runs.He played really good defense but his scoring wasn't really impactful and a lot of times he flat out dissapeared.

Jordan was the one consistently carrying the Bulls and closing out the games.This wasn't like the Shaq and Kobe duo where it was 1A 1B,it was more like Superman and Robin duo.

Pippen's gotta be the most overrated player in NBA history next to Frauden.I mean what has the guy really done to be considered a top 5 Small Forward or a top 30 player all time?The 6 rings argument doesn't count since he was Robin next to Superman.

His stint in Houston absolutely flopped,R.Wallace and S.Smith carried his old washed up ass in Portland.He was never a franchise player and that's all there is to it.He can't be an alpha of a team if he isn't even an alpha in his own home.How many NBA players has Larsa slept with so far?

[Axe]

Scottie is/was a role player that rode the coattails of Jordan.He did nothing great or spectacular during the championship runs.He played really good defense but his scoring wasn't really impactful and a lot of times he flat out dissapeared.

Jordan was the one consistently carrying the Bulls and closing out the games.This wasn't like the Shaq and Kobe duo where it was 1A 1B,it was more like Superman and Robin duo.

Pippen's gotta be the most overrated player in NBA history next to Frauden.I mean what has the guy really done to be considered a top 5 Small Forward or a top 30 player all time?The 6 rings argument doesn't count since he was Robin next to Superman.

His stint in Houston absolutely flopped,R.Wallace and S.Smith carried his old washed up ass in Portland.He was never a franchise player and that's all there is to it.He can't be an alpha of a team if he isn't even an alpha in his own home.How many NBA players has Larsa slept with so far?
Scottie pippen was the renowned floor general of the 90s dynasty, you dimwit casual. The bulls sans jordan wouldn't have won 55 games in 94 if he wasn't there to lead the team while their first option was gone.

[Phoenix]

Kobe was better than Pippen ever was from 98' or 99' onwards

Infact, HS freshman Kobe was better in many ways, like scoring

Thanks. The 'dumbest things on ISH' thread needed some fresh material.

[HoopsNY]

That wasn't their argument. The argument is that Wade is closer to Pippen on defense than Pippen is to Wade on offense. Pippen had just two seasons playing without Jordan who has one of the highest usage rates in NBA history and in those two years he was a top 10 scorer as a point forward. Those are the facts. Yes Wade led the league in scoring (when the league changed the rules to help him score easier). But Pippen led the league in defensive rating once, and led the playoffs in defensive rating twice.

Wade is overrated. The difference in the careers of Wade and Pippen boils down to 3 controversial games in the 06 Finals. The other three gqmes, he was trash and he wasn't the focal point of the Dallas defense. Shaq was.

This is absurd. It boils down to 3 controversial games in the '06 finals? Lol, and you say Wade is overrated? If anything, you're underrating him. Let's take out those 3 games and look at Wade's averages: 29/7/4/2/1 on 45%. Guess what, that's better than anything Pippen ever did in the finals :lol.

You can't just sub out those 3 games and act like Wade was "trash" in the other 3. That just didn't happen. And we don't isolate data from free throws. What was Wade's other numbers outside of free throw totals in those 3 games?

Furthermore, this debate extends beyond just 3 games. I already mentioned it in an earlier post...


There is no argument for Pippen over Wade. Prime for prime, Wade wins.

RS Wade '05-'12: 26/5/6/2/1 on 57% TS%
RS Pippen '91-'98: 20/7/6/2/1 on 55% TS%

PS Wade '05-'12: 26/6/5/2/1 on 57% TS%
PS Pippen '91-'98: 19/8/6/2/1 on 52% TS%

Finals Wade: 28/7/5/2/1 on 57% TS%
Finals Pippen: 19/8/6/2/1 on 50% TS%

Game 7s Wade: 27/5/5/1/1 on 55% TS%
Game 7s Pippen: 18/13/6/2/1 on 49% TS%

Conf. Finals Wade: 22/6/4/2/1 on 57% TS%
Conf. Finals Pippen: 19/8/5/2/1 on 53% TS%

Peak Wade was in competition with LeBron and Kobe, two top 12-13 players of all-time. I also think Wade's rebounding numbers would be more if he was at the SF position. His rebounding was incredible for someone who split the PG role for much of his peak/prime. If you put Wade around the basket, his athleticism was good enough to grab 8-9 rebounds a game.

And I haven't even mentioned Wade's 2006 finals performance, which is amongst the greatest of all time.

These is their entire primes here. 3 games? Lol, whut?

[97 bulls]

This is absurd. It boils down to 3 controversial games in the '06 finals? Lol, and you say Wade is overrated? If anything, you're underrating him. Let's take out those 3 games and look at Wade's averages: 29/7/4/2/1 on 45%. Guess what, that's better than anything Pippen ever did in the finals :lol.

You can't just sub out those 3 games and act like Wade was "trash" in the other 3. That just didn't happen. And we don't isolate data from free throws. What was Wade's other numbers outside of free throw totals in those 3 games?

Furthermore, this debate extends beyond just 3 games. I already mentioned it in an earlier post...



These is their entire primes here. 3 games? Lol, whut?

I'd take Pippens 22/9/7/3/1 with great defense in the 91 Finals over Wades.

Granted, saying Wade's other 3 games were trash is extreme.

[kawhileonard2]

Wade won finals mvp so that says it all.

[bizil]

Wade at his best gave you all of this:

Great scoring
Great passing
Great rebounding for a SG
Great defense
Freak athletic ability

Among the perimeter guys, ONLY MJ, Bron, and Kobe combined these elements just as good or better. He's on the MT. RUSHMORE for combining all those elements along with those icons. That says it all right there. G Hill was on his way to that type shit, but injuries cut his career to short. T Mac's and Drexler's defense wasn't as consistent. Pip was missing the great scoring part. GOAT and peak-prime wise, Wade has the clear edge on Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Wade at his best gave you all of this:

Great scoring
Great passing
Great rebounding for a SG
Great defense
Freak athletic ability

Among the perimeter guys, ONLY MJ, Bron, and Kobe combined these elements just as good or better. He's on the MT. RUSHMORE for combining all those elements along with those icons. That says it all right there. G Hill was on his way to that type shit, but injuries cut his career to short. T Mac's and Drexler's defense wasn't as consistent. Pip was missing the great scoring part. GOAT and peak-prime wise, Wade has the clear edge on Pippen.

And for all that, Wade underachieved for most of his career when it came down to what was most important. WINNING!!! I don't care if you're scoring 40ppg. If you keep losing, then you need to change something.

[HoopsNY]

There is no argument for Pippen over Wade. Prime for prime, Wade wins.

RS Wade '05-'12: 26/5/6/2/1 on 57% TS%
RS Pippen '91-'98: 20/7/6/2/1 on 55% TS%

PS Wade '05-'12: 26/6/5/2/1 on 57% TS%
PS Pippen '91-'98: 19/8/6/2/1 on 52% TS%

Finals Wade: 28/7/5/2/1 on 57% TS%
Finals Pippen: 19/8/6/2/1 on 50% TS%

Game 7s Wade: 27/5/5/1/1 on 55% TS%
Game 7s Pippen: 18/13/6/2/1 on 49% TS%

Conf. Finals Wade: 22/6/4/2/1 on 57% TS%
Conf. Finals Pippen: 19/8/5/2/1 on 53% TS%

Peak Wade was in competition with LeBron and Kobe, two top 12-13 players of all-time. I also think Wade's rebounding numbers would be more if he was at the SF position. His rebounding was incredible for someone who split the PG role for much of his peak/prime. If you put Wade around the basket, his athleticism was good enough to grab 8-9 rebounds a game.

And I haven't even mentioned Wade's 2006 finals performance, which is amongst the greatest of all time.


And for all that, Wade underachieved for most of his career when it came down to what was most important. WINNING!!! I don't care if you're scoring 40ppg. If you keep losing, then you need to change something.

Wait, Wade underachieved? If Pippen is in fact better than Wade, then what does that make Pippen's underachievements? What did he do in 1995 when they added MJ's 31 PPG in the playoffs?

What happened when he joined Hakeem and Barkley in 1999, losing 3-1 in the 1st round to the Lakers?

What happened when he joined a stacked Blazers team that started the season 45-11 in 1999-00, tied for the best record in the league with LAL? The Lakers ended up winning 67 games that year and Portland finished 14-12 in their last 26 games. Then in game 7 of the WCF, they blow a 15 point 4th quarter lead. That team had a bench that could be a starting 5 with Wallace/Grant, O'Neal, Wells, Anthony, and Schrempf.

What happened when Pippen was one of 3 All-Stars in 1994 on a 55 win team against the Knicks? Why did Phil resort to rookie Kukoc instead of Pippen, and why did Pippen sit out the final shot of game 3?

What happened in the migraine game? Chicago most certainly beats Detroit if Pippen steps up. Or how about game 6 of '89 ECF after the Bill Laimbeer elbow?

If Wade is an underachiever, then what does that make Pippen? Sure, Wade's injuries were always in question, but I don't recall Wade's drive, determination, and ability in question as much as Pippen's. Look at this article from 1996, this was a constant point of discussion, even back then...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1996/06/16/an-ailing-pippen-is-a-sore-spot-for-the-bulls/a7c32a8e-2b6a-4ef1-afd7-aa4b75d12578/


We've passed this way before with Scottie Pippen. In 1989, in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals against the Pistons, a Bill Laimbeer elbow finished him off early as the Bulls were eliminated. In 1990, in Game 7 of the conference finals against the Pistons, when what he called a migraine headache impaired his vision, he turned to Jell-O, and Michael Jordan had to basically go it alone, unsuccessfully. Two years ago, down two games to none with 1.8 seconds left in Game 3 against the Knicks, Pippen just said no to a play designed for him to inbound the ball and Toni Kukoc to shoot it with the season on the line. Pippen sat, Kukoc scored, the basketball world shook its head in disbelief. And now here he is, in the middle of an absolutely dreadful series against Seattle in the NBA Finals, trying to get ahold of his game, as those old whispers grow loud once more.

You know the whispers: Scottie's soft in the big games, Scottie can't handle the pressure. The best players in the league used to laugh behind his back, some in his face. Is it fair? Maybe.

[3ba11]

Look at this article from 1996, this was a constant point of discussion, even back then...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1996/06/16/an-ailing-pippen-is-a-sore-spot-for-the-bulls/a7c32a8e-2b6a-4ef1-afd7-aa4b75d12578/



We've passed this way before with Scottie Pippen. In 1989, in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals against the Pistons, a Bill Laimbeer elbow finished him off early as the Bulls were eliminated. In 1990, in Game 7 of the conference finals against the Pistons, when what he called a migraine headache impaired his vision, he turned to Jell-O, and Michael Jordan had to basically go it alone, unsuccessfully. Two years ago, down two games to none with 1.8 seconds left in Game 3 against the Knicks, Pippen just said no to a play designed for him to inbound the ball and Toni Kukoc to shoot it with the season on the line. Pippen sat, Kukoc scored, the basketball world shook its head in disbelief. And now here he is, in the middle of an absolutely dreadful series against Seattle in the NBA Finals, trying to get ahold of his game, as those old whispers grow loud once more.

You know the whispers: Scottie's soft in the big games, Scottie can't handle the pressure. The best players in the league used to laugh behind his back, some in his face. Is it fair? Maybe.





Sounds like 3ball wrote that article.. Surely it's fake because 3ball doesn't know anything

[97 bulls]

Wait, Wade underachieved? If Pippen is in fact better than Wade, then what does that make Pippen's underachievements? What did he do in 1995 when they added MJ's 31 PPG in the playoffs?
Everyone knows why the Bulls lost to the Magic. They had nobody to contain Shaq. And Grant.


What happened when he joined Hakeem and Barkley in 1999, losing 3-1 in the 1st round to the Lakers?
Pippen was an old man by 99. He was a shell of his former self. He had played the most games in the NBA between all the Titles runs and Olympics.


What happened when he joined a stacked Blazers team that started the season 45-11 in 1999-00, tied for the best record in the league with LAL? The Lakers ended up winning 67 games that year and Portland finished 14-12 in their last 26 games. Then in game 7 of the WCF, they blow a 15 point 4th quarter lead. That team had a bench that could be a starting 5 with Wallace/Grant, O'Neal, Wells, Anthony, and Schrempf.

They lost to a better team. And once again, Pippen was old


What happened when Pippen was one of 3 All-Stars in 1994 on a 55 win team against the Knicks? Why did Phil resort to rookie Kukoc instead of Pippen, and why did Pippen sit out the final shot of game 3?
I believe we went through this before. You Pippen haters are the only ones that make it aeems like losing your best player and not replacing him, and going 7 games and needing a bad call to support from the refs to lose.


What happened in the migraine game? Chicago most certainly beats Detroit if Pippen steps up. Or how about game 6 of '89 ECF after the Bill Laimbeer elbow?

Again, more hate. Id like to see you get kicked in the head by a 270lb man being kncovked out cold, and then you go to work the same day. And the migraine? I'd agree with you except for the fact that Pippen said he had a migraine BEFORE THE GAME STARTED. And he played 40+ minutes. It's not like he used it as a scapegoat. Meaning he announced he had the migraine after the game.


If Wade is an underachiever, then what does that make Pippen? Sure, Wade's injuries were always in question, but I don't recall Wade's drive, determination, and ability in question as much as Pippen's. Look at this article from 1996, this was a constant point of discussion, even back then...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1996/06/16/an-ailing-pippen-is-a-sore-spot-for-the-bulls/a7c32a8e-2b6a-4ef1-afd7-aa4b75d12578/
Wade was considered a whiny bitch. The dudes nickname was "D-Whislte". He's lost as the favorite multiple times. With Hall of Fame teammates. Pippens teams have never lost when they had homecourt advantage.

As much as you guys love Wade, you'd think that you be praising James. He saved Wade's career. Before James joined, Wade, biggest claim to fame was the most controversial Finals the NBA has ever seen. James even took a backseat and allowed Wade to run the show in 2011 and the Heat still lost. And Wade had James and Bosh lol. A far cry from BJ Armsrtong and Horace Grant.

You guys are stat whores. I'm about Wins and Losses. Especially when you're supposed to win you don't like Wade did multiple times.

[Axe]

Sounds like 3ball wrote that article.. Surely it's fake because 3ball doesn't know anything
Stfu andrew..

Btw what happened to trada7029

[Nike D'Antoni]

Scoring- Wade
Shooting- Wade
Rebounding- Pippen
Passing- Even
Defense- Pippen
Leadership- Even

[HoopsNY]

Scoring- Wade
Shooting- Wade
Rebounding- Pippen
Passing- Even
Defense- Pippen
Leadership- Even

Leadership? That goes to Wade. How about being clutch and a big game performer? That goes to Wade as well.

[3ba11]

.
.
Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif

[3ba11]

Leadership? That goes to Wade. How about being clutch and a big game performer? That goes to Wade as well.


The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF without Lebron just like 94' Bulls without MJ


Playoffs

16' Wade...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' Pippen.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does, while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber..

See clutch stats for 16' Wade vs 94' Pippen in previous post.





Leadership? That goes to Wade. How about being clutch and a big game performer? That goes to Wade as well.


Pippen bricks 2 free throws right before Reggie Miller's historic winner over MJ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXTzfrU2Eik&t=7150s


Among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), spacing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s), clutch (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=259s), here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif), here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif), here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif), here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&dir=A&sort=PTS)), and lowest peak capability (not on scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)).. Pippen's low peak capability meant that MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for every season and series of his career (unique to Jordan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s)).. As the links show, this is all historical record..

[BigShotBob]

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Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif

It's over