Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #24

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - Dwyane Wade
#24 - NOW VOTING

Top 50 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Elgin Baylor - 5 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern, Airupthere, Thenameless)
Scottie Pippen - 5 (Ryoka Narusawa, 8Ball, ELITEpower23, Lbj, TheCorporation)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
Bob Pettit - 1 (SouBeachTalents)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)
James Harden - 1 (000)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (gonzaldo)

[Chick Stern]

Still Baylor.

and Wade - rofl

[000]

After thinking very long and very hard about it, I switch my vote to Pippen

[SaintzFury13]

Gotta go with Scottie Pippen on this one.

[SaintzFury13]

I have to say, looking at this list from top to bottom, I've been pleasantly surprised with how the list has gone so far. The only real objection that I am going to have is Baylor making the top 25 because if he doesn't make it here, he's most certainly going to make it in the next spot. I guess if I had to nitpick one, I would have to say that I still think Bill Russell is still too high on this list. But number 4 for him is not an outrageous and laughable ranking and for that I'll accept it for what it is.

[jlip]

Bob Pettit

[Magic Is Magic]

Bob Cousy

6x Champion
1x MVP winner
13x All star
10x All NBA 1st team
2x All NBA 2nd team
8x NBA Assist leader


NCAA Champion

[RRR3]

Chris Paul. Lol at Baylor.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm also going with Chris Paul.

[RRR3]

I'm also going with Chris Paul.
If we’re ranking Malone high based on longevity CP3 needs to be close if we’re being consistent.

[dankok8]

I'm going with Baylor then Havlicek. Don't understand the hating on Baylor. Look at what he did in the finals in 1962... averaged 40.6/17.9/3.7 on 51.0 %TS (+3.1 rTS) against the mighty Celtics. Remember we are comparing players relative to their eras. Baylor was an absolute stud. And again until a few years ago when modern players like Curry and KD started appearing he was a staple in the top 20.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm going with Baylor then Havlicek. Don't understand the hating on Baylor. Look at what he did in the finals in 1962... averaged 40.6/17.9/3.7 on 51.0 %TS (+3.1 rTS) against the mighty Celtics. Remember we are comparing players relative to their eras. Baylor was an absolute stud. And again until a few years ago when modern players like Curry and KD started appearing he was a staple in the top 20.

Baylor should be getting consideration in the next coming spots, but all those inflated stats from the early 60's isn't going to impress me. Richie Guerin averaged 30 ppg in 1962 as well. I think Baylor would have been on this list already if he had a longer prime, he was a shell of himself after 1963 due to knee issues.

[L.Kizzle]

Baylor should be getting consideration in the next coming spots, but all those inflated stats from the early 60's isn't going to impress me. Richie Guerin averaged 30 ppg in 1962 as well. I think Baylor would have been on this list already if he had a longer prime, he was a shell of himself after 1963 due to knee issues.
Richie missed the playoffs not only that season but all of his top statistical seasons.
All of his 20 point seasons he missed the playoffs.

[RRR3]

Richie missed the playoffs not only that season but all of his top statistical seasons.
All of his 20 point seasons he missed the playoffs.
Almost like he didn’t have Jerry West as a teammate.

[L.Kizzle]

Almost like he didn’t have Jerry West as a teammate.
He made the Finals 2 seasons before Jerry West was even drafted.

[RRR3]

He made the Finals 2 seasons before Jerry West was even drafted.
Yeah playing with two hall of gamers and an 8 time allstar. And then he got swept.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll go Baylor.

The 'inflated stats' argument could've been used for players beforehand. Like w/ West and Ocar. Its a valid one, but it needs to be applied across the map.

[SaintzFury13]

I'll go Baylor.

The 'inflated stats' argument could've been used for players beforehand. Like w/ West and Ocar. Its a valid one, but it needs to be applied across the map.

It isn't just a matter of inflated stats. Again, West and Oscar had styles of play that would have translated just fine in any era of basketball that we've seen be played so far. Baylor didn't. Now mind you, Oscar Robertson like Baylor was another example of an empty stats player. But you know what? He has a championship on top of still at least being an extremely skilled player who wasn't blessed with hall of fame teammates like Baylor was.

Regardless, with your vote, I believe that makes it a tie between Pippen and Baylor.

[Thenameless]

I'm going with Baylor then Havlicek. Don't understand the hating on Baylor. Look at what he did in the finals in 1962... averaged 40.6/17.9/3.7 on 51.0 %TS (+3.1 rTS) against the mighty Celtics. Remember we are comparing players relative to their eras. Baylor was an absolute stud. And again until a few years ago when modern players like Curry and KD started appearing he was a staple in the top 20.

Now, I did vote for Baylor this round, but I think it's a mix of how good they were relative to their era, how good they were in absolute terms, and how well their game translates to different eras.

If we just go with how well the player dominated his peers/era, then George Mikan would have probably kicked the door in a while back. I'm pretty sure for his era, Mikan was more dominant than say Olajuwon, who is ranked 10th on our list. I might bleed Purple and Gold, but if I could add one of them to the current Lakers team, it would be Olajuwon.

[Phoenix]

I may be going full retard here, but I've been throwing around a few names in my head. I feel like guys like Wilt, Russell, West, Oscar, are just going to ( rightly or otherwise) get the benefit of doubt that their greatness would transcend eras and always be viewed as top 10-15 titans of the game. Guys like Baylor, Havlicek, Pettit I'm less certain about even if they were superstars in their own era( meaning ranking them based on relative dominance compared to the dominance of other players in other eras.....all extremely subjective and contextual stuff). With that said, and some of this may projecting where I think he's going to go with his career over the next few seasons, and taking into account he's not going to get voted in for at least another 3 rounds or so anyway, so fukkit:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/0f/ea/330feaa3c514f68adbdee9592e6b9ffe.jpg

Again, this may be full retard and I accept that opinion from others( and to be clear, I'm having to really convince myself hard on this one hence this bloated diatribe). But when I look at someone like David Robinson, and I'm not making the argument for whose peak was/is better at this time, and what he did( but also, what he didn't until Duncan came onboard)...... I look at the last 5 seasons of Freak's career and I'm asking how much ahead in the rankings should the Admiral be now or over the next few years based on my projections:

27/11/6/1/1 55%, 62% TS, 29 PER season
27/12/5/1/1 55%, 59% TS, 27 PER playoffs
5 time All-NBA
4 Time all-Defense
Back to back MVP 2019, 2020
DPOY 2020

5 years of work...........that's all-time shit, people. Yes, longevity matters so feel free to sneer away. I get it. But if the last half decade is any indication, all of those accolades could double, and he'd be barely 31 with time to write even more chapters. No, I can't rank him on what he hasn't done or 'could' do, I'm just looking at what he is, what he's already done. Note that I haven't mentioned the 2021 NBA ring and Finals MVP yet. That's the 'well actualllly' part of the conversation. I get it......the string of injured bodies last playoffs facilitated a path to a chip that probably wasn't there otherwise. Or Kevin Durant's foot being a few inches further back. Whatever. Giannis himself went down at one point, and recovered to drop 50 in the championship closeout game. Bounces here and there, injuries here and there, that's determined alot things in basketball. Who wins and loses. Who goes down as a top 10 player or who barely makes the top 20. The wrong bounce, the right bounce. Shit happens. Giannis is mostly going it alone relative to other upper echelon guys. Lebron has AD( and vice versa), Harden has KD( and vice versa). Out of the players with serious championship hopes, he's the only one working with someone who may be barely top 25 on his best day. Middleton is nice, but let's be real. Yes, he's got a sound team around him.....but give him a top 10 player. The league would be in trouble.

So come @ me. I probably won't even argue why Baylor should be here, or Petit, or CP3, or Isiah, or whoever else you want to throw in. I'm casting my vote now for when ISH puts him in around 27 or 28( I suspect).

Moving on to coffee #3.....

[outofstomach]

Still Baylor.

and Wade - roflyou’re an idiot

[Thenameless]

I may be going full retard here, but I've been throwing around a few names in my head. I feel like guys like Wilt, Russell, West, Oscar, are just going to ( rightly or otherwise) get the benefit of doubt that their greatness would transcend eras and always be viewed as top 10-15 titans of the game. Guys like Baylor, Havlicek, Pettit I'm less certain about even if they were superstars in their own era( meaning ranking them based on relative dominance compared to the dominance of other players in other eras.....all extremely subjective and contextual stuff). With that said, and some of this may projecting where I think he's going to go with his career over the next few seasons, and taking into account he's not going to get voted in for at least another 3 rounds or so anyway, so fukkit:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/0f/ea/330feaa3c514f68adbdee9592e6b9ffe.jpg

Again, this may be full retard and I accept that opinion from others( and to be clear, I'm having to really convince myself hard on this one hence this bloated diatribe). But when I look at someone like David Robinson, and I'm not making the argument for whose peak was/is better at this time, and what he did( but also, what he didn't until Duncan came onboard)...... I look at the last 5 seasons of Freak's career and I'm asking how much ahead in the rankings should the Admiral be now or over the next few years based on my projections:

27/11/6/1/1 55%, 62% TS, 29 PER season
27/12/5/1/1 55%, 59% TS, 27 PER playoffs
5 time All-NBA
4 Time all-Defense
Back to back MVP 2019, 2020
DPOY 2020

5 years of work...........that's all-time shit, people. Yes, longevity matters so feel free to sneer away. I get it. But if the last half decade is any indication, all of those accolades could double, and he'd be barely 31 with time to write even more chapters. No, I can't rank him on what he hasn't done or 'could' do, I'm just looking at what he is, what he's already done. Note that I haven't mentioned the 2021 NBA ring and Finals MVP yet. That's the 'well actualllly' part of the conversation. I get it......the string of injured bodies last playoffs facilitated a path to a chip that probably wasn't there otherwise. Or Kevin Durant's foot being a few inches further back. Whatever. Giannis himself went down at one point, and recovered to drop 50 in the championship closeout game. Bounces here and there, injuries here and there, that's determined alot things in basketball. Who wins and loses. Who goes down as a top 10 player or who barely makes the top 20. The wrong bounce, the right bounce. Shit happens. Giannis is mostly going it alone relative to other upper echelon guys. Lebron has AD( and vice versa), Harden has KD( and vice versa). Out of the players with serious championship hopes, he's the only one working with someone who may be barely top 25 on his best day. Middleton is nice, but let's be real. Yes, he's got a sound team around him.....but give him a top 10 player. The league would be in trouble.

So come @ me. I probably won't even argue why Baylor should be here, or Petit, or CP3, or Isiah, or whoever else you want to throw in. I'm casting my vote now for when ISH puts him in around 27 or 28( I suspect).

Moving on to coffee #3.....

There's nothing wrong with holding Giannis in high regard. He's basically done it all now, and he's still young. And, like he said, he did it the hard way.

One thing I will say in defense of The Admiral though was that he started his career a little later than the norm, because of his service to the Navy. And when he finally did, it was one of the biggest turnarounds in NBA history for a franchise (Spurs improved by 35 wins in his rookie season). Robinson's resume ain't half-bad either with a scoring title, DPoY, and MVP. Yes, he didn't win until Duncan came along, but it takes a team.

[Phoenix]

One thing I will say in defense of The Admiral though was that he started his career a little later than the norm, because of his service to the Navy. And when he finally did, it was one of the biggest turnarounds in NBA history for a franchise (Spurs improved by 35 wins in his rookie season). Robinson's resume ain't half-bad either with a scoring title, DPoY, and MVP. Yes, he didn't win until Duncan came along, but it takes a team.

I get that, and like I said I'm not trying to argue like Giannis is a better player than Robinson ever was at his best. Robinson was more skilled overall and a better rim protector. That being said, that whole notion of 'relative dominance' I spoke to earlier? For me Giannis right now is at least 'relatively' as dominant on an individual level as Robinson was back in 1994 in 'his' era. The production is there. He's won more MVPs. He won the DPOY( as did Robinson). Multiple all-NBA first teams. The output of his talents is putting him at least on-par( in terms of results) with what Robinson was doing between 90 and 95, except Giannis was able to go all the way( with the caveat of all the injuries of course, but that's not Giannis fault and he himself got injured). He should get some credit for being the last man standing last year whatever circumstances led to that.

Robinson should be ranked higher, but I don't feel like there should be more than 5 spots between them and Giannis is still writing his story. I don't expect Giannis to get voted in at 24, and perhaps he shouldn't, but I do feel he should be in the discussion at this stage.

[gonzaldo]

Yes, im also on Giannis board obviously, lets theorize and say he wins the title this year too, where would this put him? id say on the dream level roughly.

[warriorfan]

Baylor. He was a force and a precursor for the modern game.

[SaintzFury13]

Giannis absolutely deserves discussion at this point. He already has multiple MVP's, a DPOY award, multiple all NBA and all defense selections, and now he's an NBA Champion with a finals MVP award. There are guys with less accolades who are already on this list. And what's crazy is that he's only 26 years old and has so many more years ahead of him. He doesn't get my vote at this point yet, but I think he definitely belongs in the 25-30 player range right now.

[Bankaii]

There's nothing wrong with holding Giannis in high regard. He's basically done it all now, and he's still young. And, like he said, he did it the hard way.
"The hard way" lmao. He won due to extreme injuries (worse than ever in history). Even without the injuries, Giannis has one of the best supporting casts in the league. Nothing he did was any more difficult than other greats (outside of KD).

Since we've already overrated all the other past greats, I'll vote Baylor.

[Phoenix]

Bump. Man you all are tapping out already :oldlol:. Getting to 50 is gonna be brutal.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm too lazy to do the math, what's the count right now?

[Phoenix]

I'm too lazy to do the math, what's the count right now?

Kind tough sifting through all the comments but I think Baylor has 8, Pippen 7

[Chick Stern]

Still Baylor.

and Wade - rofl


I’m an idiot


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

[nayte]

I will go Baylor

[SaintzFury13]

I've been convinced by some people who have legitimate knowledge of the game of basketball that Baylor is better than I am giving him credit for. So for that, I will change my vote to Baylor.

[Round Mound]

Baylor

[Kobe_Bryant]

the funny thing about this is all the lebron fans forgot to vote up pippen like how they voted lebron, curry up/me and durant down


you're slippin ISH


edit*



Scottie Pippen - 5 (Ryoka Narusawa, 8Ball, ELITEpower23, Lbj, TheCorporation)


well at least some of you are still trying

[SouBeachTalents]

the funny thing about this is all the lebron fans forgot to vote up pippen like how they voted lebron, curry up/me and durant down


you're slippin ISH
Yep, it's ISH that's slippin, not the guy who's so upset that Kobe was left outside the top 10 that he's been pretending to be a dead guy for almost a month now :lol

[Nike D'Antoni]

The lists have more favoritism towards recent players over the past. Somebody suggesting Chris Paul, when Isiah Thomas did not get voted in yet.

This lists should have quota, from every decade you pick at least 2 in top 10, then another two in 11-20, then another 2 from 21 - 30 etc.

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Elgin Baylor - 12 (L. Kizzle, Nike D'Antoni, Chick Stern, Airupthere, Thenameless, dankok8, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, warriorfan, Bankaii, nayte, SaintzFury13, Round Mound)
Scottie Pippen - 6 (Ryoka Narusawa, 8Ball, ELITEpower23, Lbj, TheCorporation, OOO)
Kawhi Leonard - 3 (kawhileonard2, HBK_Kliq_2, Honor Boost)
Bob Pettit - 2 (SouBeachTalents)
Chris Paul - 2 (RRR3, 1987_Lakers)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 2 (gonzaldo, Phoenix)
Bob Cousy - 1 (Magic is Magic)
John Havlicek - 1 (Jasper)

Baylor wins.

[SaintzFury13]

The lists have more favoritism towards recent players over the past. Somebody suggesting Chris Paul, when Isiah Thomas did not get voted in yet.

This lists should have quota, from every decade you pick at least 2 in top 10, then another two in 11-20, then another 2 from 21 - 30 etc.

Chris Paul is better than Isiah Thomas. I see no reason to think otherwise.

[Chick Stern]

Chris Paul is better than Isiah Thomas. I see no reason to think otherwise.

Paul only goes right

[SaintzFury13]

Paul only goes right

Gonna have to do better than that.

[dankok8]

Isiah is better than CP3. It's the fire in his belly... Isiah had so many monster games in key moments "willing" his team to victories. Of course Paul at this point does have a longevity edge but so does Stockton and not many people put Stockton over Isiah.

[L.Kizzle]

Chris Paul is better than Isiah Thomas. I see no reason to think otherwise.
One of your main reasons not voting for Elgin Baylor was he didn't win a title, have no MVP awards and led the league in any category.
Isiah has titles, Finals MVP and led the league in assist.
Two things over Isiah.

[SaintzFury13]

One of your main reasons not voting for Elgin Baylor was he didn't win a title, have no MVP awards and led the league in any category.
Isiah has titles, Finals MVP and led the league in assist.
Two things over Isiah.

First off, I eventually voted for Elgin once it was pointed out to me by an older fan just how skilled he really was, which was the main basis for my argument.

Second, I never once mentioned that he didn't win an MVP or led in any category. Shit like that doesn't really matter to me as much when discussing that era. Wilt and Russell played in that era. I can understand if Baylor didn't lead in scoring or rebounding at any point and didn't win MVP. That would be kind of difficult with those guys.

Third, that kind of logic isn't going to work here. Every single player is different. Two players who never won titles are going to have done so for different reasons. Elgin Baylor had the team, he had the opportunities, and he simply blew it when the chances were there, over and over again, even with hall of fame teammates. Paul on the other hand wasn't as lucky, and usually when the chances were there, they were squandered by either injury or just straight up bad luck. It usually wasn't his fault. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. I'm not going to sit here and forget about that 3-1 lead that his team blew to the Rockets in 2015. But criticizing Paul at this point for not having a ring is just foolish.

Now with all of that said, Chris Paul is a better player on both ends of the floor on top of being a better playmaker and floor general.

Thomas led the league in assists? Yeah, once. Paul did that shit FOUR TIMES. Paul led the league in assists (steals, my bad) SIX TIMES. Paul has more first team all NBA selections, a shit ton more all defense selections (because, you know, Thomas has 0 of those). Chris Paul has had a longer period of dominance than Thomas. If the rings are the only thing that Thomas has over Paul, then it's pretty obvious at this point who the greater player is.

[dankok8]

First off, I eventually voted for Elgin once it was pointed out to me by an older fan just how skilled he really was, which was the main basis for my argument.

Second, I never once mentioned that he didn't win an MVP or led in any category. Shit like that doesn't really matter to me as much when discussing that era. Wilt and Russell played in that era. I can understand if Baylor didn't lead in scoring or rebounding at any point and didn't win MVP. That would be kind of difficult with those guys.

Third, that kind of logic isn't going to work here. Every single player is different. Two players who never won titles are going to have done so for different reasons. Elgin Baylor had the team, he had the opportunities, and he simply blew it when the chances were there, over and over again, even with hall of fame teammates. Paul on the other hand wasn't as lucky, and usually when the chances were there, they were squandered by either injury or just straight up bad luck. It usually wasn't his fault. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. I'm not going to sit here and forget about that 3-1 lead that his team blew to the Rockets in 2015. But criticizing Paul at this point for not having a ring is just foolish.

Now with all of that said, Chris Paul is a better player on both ends of the floor on top of being a better playmaker and floor general.

Thomas led the league in assists? Yeah, once. Paul did that shit FOUR TIMES. Paul led the league in assists (steals, my bad) SIX TIMES. Paul has more first team all NBA selections, a shit ton more all defense selections (because, you know, Thomas has 0 of those). Chris Paul has had a longer period of dominance than Thomas. If the rings are the only thing that Thomas has over Paul, then it's pretty obvious at this point who the greater player is.

Paul also had half of his prime postseasons derailed by injury and he was a much worse big game player than Isiah. The latter is a big reason why Isiah has two rings and Paul has none. CP3 had his chances over and over again. Getting injured isn't an excuse. Not being durable is a weakness, coming up short in the clutch is a weakness etc. Chris Paul is a player worse than his stats and Isiah is better than his stats. Isiah had legendary performance deep in the playoffs including the finals. And CP3 is CP0...

Again if longevity is the argument then Stockton is over Isiah too. Nash also has a hell of a case over Paul leading such dominant offenses for years in Dallas and then in Phoenix. As does Cousy who won an MVP and has a lot of high level years as well and led the league in assists a whopping eight times.

[L.Kizzle]

First off, I eventually voted for Elgin once it was pointed out to me by an older fan just how skilled he really was, which was the main basis for my argument.

Second, I never once mentioned that he didn't win an MVP or led in any category. Shit like that doesn't really matter to me as much when discussing that era. Wilt and Russell played in that era. I can understand if Baylor didn't lead in scoring or rebounding at any point and didn't win MVP. That would be kind of difficult with those guys.

Third, that kind of logic isn't going to work here. Every single player is different. Two players who never won titles are going to have done so for different reasons. Elgin Baylor had the team, he had the opportunities, and he simply blew it when the chances were there, over and over again, even with hall of fame teammates. Paul on the other hand wasn't as lucky, and usually when the chances were there, they were squandered by either injury or just straight up bad luck. It usually wasn't his fault. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. I'm not going to sit here and forget about that 3-1 lead that his team blew to the Rockets in 2015. But criticizing Paul at this point for not having a ring is just foolish.

Now with all of that said, Chris Paul is a better player on both ends of the floor on top of being a better playmaker and floor general.

Thomas led the league in assists? Yeah, once. Paul did that shit FOUR TIMES. Paul led the league in assists (steals, my bad) SIX TIMES. Paul has more first team all NBA selections, a shit ton more all defense selections (because, you know, Thomas has 0 of those). Chris Paul has had a longer period of dominance than Thomas. If the rings are the only thing that Thomas has over Paul, then it's pretty obvious at this point who the greater player is.
Not disagreeing with you.
But you once (when discussing Wade vs Baylor) said give me a reason to vote Baylor with out bringing up his stats (or inflated stats as you call them) and accolades (in an 8 team league ...)
Yet, you're using stats and accolades as a reasoning of voting CP3 vs Zeke.
Just saying be consistent when comparing players

[SaintzFury13]

Not disagreeing with you.
But you once (when discussing Wade vs Baylor) said give me a reason to vote Baylor with out bringing up his stats (or inflated stats as you call them) and accolades (in an 8 team league ...)
Yet, you're using stats and accolades as a reasoning of voting CP3 vs Zeke.
Just saying be consistent when comparing players

Go through my post and name one instance where I ever used stats.

[L.Kizzle]

Go through my post and name one instance where I ever used stats.
Leading the league in assist and steals are stats.

[SaintzFury13]

Leading the league in assist and steals are stats.

Yeah, those are accolades, which I only brought up because you mentioned that Isiah led the league in assists once like that's supposed to matter.