Does Kobe out-perform MJ in any of their finals?

[AirBonner]

What finals series does Kobe have over MJ? I can’t think of any. Yet people throw his name in the mix like he’s on the same level :biggums:

[Phoenix]

93 MJ
92 MJ
91 MJ
97 MJ
09 Kobe
98 MJ( thought MJ had the epic closeout so 09 Kobe just edges here)
96 MJ

The rest of Kob's finals are all below that and I won't bother ranking them.

[TheCorporation]

It's unfair to Kobe to compare a top 15 player to a top 5 player.

[Bronbron23]

What finals series does Kobe have over MJ? I can’t think of any. Yet people throw his name in the mix like he’s on the same level :biggums:

Who knows man. Kobe had pips number and it didn't seem like mj could gaurd him any better. I think there would of been extra motivation for kobe so yeah i could see him outplaying mj.

[Phoenix]

Who knows man. Kobe had pips number and it didn't seem like mj could gaurd him any better. I think there would of been extra motivation for kobe so yeah i could see him outplaying mj.

I don't think that was the question. It was more about ranking their finals series.

If the two of them actually met in the finals in their prime? Both of them would have used the extra motivation to out-do the other. But do consider that Kobe never played anyone remotely as good as prime MJ in the finals and the one time he played an all-NBA level guard *in their prime*, he didn't outplay Iverson and he had Shaq on his team to boot. No, MJ never played anyone as good as Kobe but 92 Clyde was no scrub and we saw how that went down. A series with Kobe would be closer but I do think when all the chips are down I'd bet on MJ, who was simply the more reliable finals player compared to Kobe.

The question is, whose offense is affected more trying to guard the other guy? Because Kobe was a great athlete but he didn't have the motor of 91-93 MJ to drop 30 AND slow down MJ from getting his over a series.

[warriorfan]

25 year old Kobe isn’t losing in 2011

[Phoenix]

25 year old Kobe isn’t losing in 2011

I don't think any top 20 player does if they play even remotely good over the series.

[SaintzFury13]

25 year old Kobe isn’t losing in 2011

And this my friends is what mental gymnastics looks like.

[Bronbron23]

I don't think that was the question. It was more about ranking their finals series.

If the two of them actually met in the finals in their prime? Both of them would have used the extra motivation to out-do the other. But do consider that Kobe never played anyone remotely as good as prime MJ in the finals and the one time he played an all-NBA level guard *in their prime*, he didn't outplay Iverson and he had Shaq on his team to boot. No, MJ never played anyone as good as Kobe but 92 Clyde was no scrub and we saw how that went down. A series with Kobe would be closer but I do think when all the chips are down I'd bet on MJ, who was simply the more reliable finals player compared to Kobe.

The question is, whose offense is affected more trying to guard the other guy? Because Kobe was a great athlete but he didn't have the motor of 91-93 MJ to drop 30 AND slow down MJ from getting his over a series.

Yeah i took that question the wrong way. Kobe must of had a better finals than mj in 96?

As far as comparing the 2 mj is definitely the better player. He's more athletic and as skilled and played smarter more often. I just think the 2 head to head could be close

[Phoenix]

Yeah i took that question the wrong way. Kobe must of had a better finals than mj in 96?

As far as comparing the 2 mj is definitely the better player. He's more athletic and as skilled and played smarter more often. I just think the 2 head to head could be close

2009 finals Kobe was better than 96 finals MJ( granted the 96 Sonics were better the 09 Magic, but I digress). As a head to head it would be close over the first few games but while both MJ and Kobe took slights as personal challenges, I feel like post 90 MJ is less susceptible to making it a mano a mano to prove individual superiority at the expense of team results. Kobe probably gets goaded into a one on one and he'll toss up more ill-advised shots and probably shoot the Lakers out of at least 2 games. 91 onwards MJ is going to play more within the flow of doing what is needed for the team to win and less to show he's individually better. Surface stats may look close at first but once you get under the hood, I think MJ is coming out on top.

As I said, the one MVP level SG Kobe played, 2001 Iverson, Kobe scored 25 on 41%. And that was with peak Shaq so that's much less pressure on Kobe to carry the offense. Iverson was a load in 2001.....but he's not peak MJ. Against end of prime Ray Allen he was dropping like 26-28 on low efficiency, of course the Celtics were a great defense but so were the Bulls backing up MJ.

[SaintzFury13]

2009 finals Kobe was better than 96 finals MJ( granted the 96 Sonics were better the 09 Magic, but I digress). As a head to head it would be close over the first few games but while both MJ and Kobe took slights as personal challenges, I feel like post 90 MJ is less susceptible to making it a mano a mano to prove individual superiority at the expense of team results. Kobe probably gets goaded into a one on one and he'll toss up more ill-advised shots and probably shoot the Lakers out of at least 2 games. 91 onwards MJ is going to play more within the flow of doing what is needed for the team to win and less to show he's individually better. Surface stats may look close at first but once you get under the hood, I think MJ is coming out on top.

As I said, the one MVP level SG Kobe played, 2001 Iverson, Kobe scored 25 on 41%. And that was with peak Shaq so that's much less pressure on Kobe to carry the offense. Iverson was a load in 2001.....but he's not peak MJ. Against end of prime Ray Allen he was dropping like 26-28 on low efficiency, of course the Celtics were a great defense but so were the Bulls backing up MJ.

I can't put Kobe's 09 performance over MJ's in 96. Yes, MJ got put in check by Payton and needed to be bailed out by Rodman, but the 2009 Finals were a very lopsided match up for the Magic. The Lakers had multiple bigs who could bother Howard down low and were versatile defensively to the point where they could hold Orlando's three point shooting in check. And on top of that, Orlando didn't have anyone who could guard Kobe Bryant. They ran into the same problem with Cleveland in regards to LeBron and would have lost the series had it not been for their match up advantages. Orlando just wasn't on LA's level. You could make the argument however that Seattle was not only on Chicago's level, but they could have potentially won the series had they put Payton on Jordan a lot sooner and if it wasn't for Pippen and Rodman's efforts in game 6. Even if 96 is a blackmark on Jordan's career, he still played great overall and to me what he did in that series is more impressive than Kobe Bryant dominating what felt like easy pickings.

[Phoenix]

I can't put Kobe's 09 performance over MJ's in 96. Yes, MJ got put in check by Payton and needed to be bailed out by Rodman, but the 2009 Finals were a very lopsided match up for the Magic. The Lakers had multiple bigs who could bother Howard down low and were versatile defensively to the point where they could hold Orlando's three point shooting in check. And on top of that, Orlando didn't have anyone who could guard Kobe Bryant. They ran into the same problem with Cleveland in regards to LeBron and would have lost the series had it not been for their match up advantages. Orlando just wasn't on LA's level. You could make the argument however that Seattle was not only on Chicago's level, but they could have potentially won the series had they put Payton on Jordan a lot sooner and if it wasn't for Pippen and Rodman's efforts in game 6. Even if 96 is a blackmark on Jordan's career, he still played great overall and to me what he did in that series is more impressive than Kobe Bryant dominating what felt like easy pickings.

Yeah that's why I put in there that the Sonics were a better team than the Magic, so there is that very important caveat when comparing the two series in question. I think I was trying to throw Kobe a bone more than anything because in reality, MJ shits all over Kobe as a finals performer. Even with 2009 being Kobe's best finals he shot 43% to get his numbers. He just wasn't a great finals performer over his career and it's just more glaring if one is attempting to draw MJ comparisons.

[FKAri]

Was 09 Kobe really better than 08 Kobe?

[aj1987]

Was 09 Kobe really better than 08 Kobe?

I pick MJ. MJ faced better competition than Kobe did, in the Finals.

[Bronbron23]

2009 finals Kobe was better than 96 finals MJ( granted the 96 Sonics were better the 09 Magic, but I digress). As a head to head it would be close over the first few games but while both MJ and Kobe took slights as personal challenges, I feel like post 90 MJ is less susceptible to making it a mano a mano to prove individual superiority at the expense of team results. Kobe probably gets goaded into a one on one and he'll toss up more ill-advised shots and probably shoot the Lakers out of at least 2 games. 91 onwards MJ is going to play more within the flow of doing what is needed for the team to win and less to show he's individually better. Surface stats may look close at first but once you get under the hood, I think MJ is coming out on top.

As I said, the one MVP level SG Kobe played, 2001 Iverson, Kobe scored 25 on 41%. And that was with peak Shaq so that's much less pressure on Kobe to carry the offense. Iverson was a load in 2001.....but he's not peak MJ. Against end of prime Ray Allen he was dropping like 26-28 on low efficiency, of course the Celtics were a great defense but so were the Bulls backing up MJ.

Good points i don't really disagree with any of that

[Manny98]

25 year old Kobe isn’t losing in 2011

/thread

[SouBeachTalents]

25 year old Kobe isn’t losing in 2011
25 year old Kobe lost as an ever bigger favorite in 2004

[theman93]

No

[Kobe_Bryant]

96 and 98 for mj weren't the best. I'd say my 2002 and 2009 finals were better. and 2010 is on par with 98 and above 96

Jordan's 91 is on par with my 2009

[3ba11]

I love Kobe, but lets see what the goat talent evaluator and the guy who drafted Kobe thinks:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R2JnwdxwTAQ


Wow.... just..... wow

[SouBeachTalents]

96 and 98 for mj weren't the best. I'd say my 2002 and 2009 finals were better. and 2010 is on par with 98 and above 96

Jordan's 91 is on par with my 2009
Don't be so modest, honestly all of Kobe's Finals were better than any of Jordan's

[8Ball]

25 year old Kobe isn’t losing in 2011

2004.

[Phoenix]

96 and 98 for mj weren't the best. I'd say my 2002 and 2009 finals were better. and 2010 is on par with 98 and above 96

Jordan's 91 is on par with my 2009

CIA, another future mass shooter here, please monitor.

[Hey Yo]

I love Kobe, but lets see what the goat talent evaluator and the guy who drafted Kobe thinks:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R2JnwdxwTAQ


Wow.... just..... wow

LOL @ Kobe ring chasing on draft day.

[Kobe_Bryant]

LOL @ Kobe ring chasing on draft day.

sorry but I committed to the Lakers long before shaq ever did

[Hey Yo]

sorry but I committed to the Lakers long before shaq ever did

Committed to coming off the bench for the reigning 4 seed contender.

[3ba11]

Committed to coming off the bench for the reigning 4 seed contender.


Tbh, everyone who watched rookie Kobe knew that he could've averaged 20 if Dell Harris gave him the minutes he deserved - but Harris was old school - he could've started Kobe and Eddie Jones at the 2 and 3 spots, but held back young Kobe

They probably start winning a year earlier in 1999 if Dell Harris played Kobe the right minutes - that's why Kobe was the all-star starter in 1998 despite being a bench player - everyone knew that Dell Harris sucked

[Hey Yo]

Tbh, everyone who watched rookie Kobe knew that he could've averaged 20 if Dell Harris gave him the minutes he deserved - but Harris was old school - he could've started Kobe and Eddie Jones at the 2 and 3 spots, but held back young Kobe

They probably start winning a year earlier in 1999 if Dell Harris played Kobe the right minutes - that's why Kobe was the all-star starter in 1998 despite being a bench player - everyone knew that Dell Harris sucked

Or he could have let the Nets draft him (like they wanted to) and he would have been their starting SG.

Instead, he chose to ring chase.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Committed to coming off the bench for the reigning 4 seed contender.

this is clear cut evidence that you never watched the nba. only a complete moron noob would forget that magic johnson played on the 1995-96 Lakers and had just retired for the 2nd time

[Phoenix]

Tbh, everyone who watched rookie Kobe knew that he could've averaged 20 if Dell Harris gave him the minutes he deserved - but Harris was old school - he could've started Kobe and Eddie Jones at the 2 and 3 spots, but held back young Kobe

They probably start winning a year earlier in 1999 if Dell Harris played Kobe the right minutes - that's why Kobe was the all-star starter in 1998 despite being a bench player - everyone knew that Dell Harris sucked

Kobe barely averaged 20 in his third season when he started. No way is he doing that as a rookie when he could barely muster 7ppg/42% against other bench players.

[Hey Yo]

Magic only played 32gms..... coming off the bench for 23 of them.

Try again, chico

[ArbitraryWater]

93 MJ
92 MJ
91 MJ
97 MJ
09 Kobe
98 MJ( thought MJ had the epic closeout so 09 Kobe just edges here)
96 MJ

The rest of Kob's finals are all below that and I won't bother ranking them.

dafuq

[Phoenix]

dafuq

Was trying to throw him a bone. :confusedshrug: I'm certainly not married to that viewpoint.

[RRR3]

Does anyone else find it interesting that the two worst posters by far (on this forum) are both rabid Kobe stans lol.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Magic only played 32gms..... coming off the bench for 23 of them.

Try again, chico

and they were 22-10 with magic = 69% win rate

31-19 without = 62% win rate

not quite a contender

:lol

[2much_knowledge]

Nice thread op. Finally discussing players worth talking about

[HoopsNY]

Yeah i took that question the wrong way. Kobe must of had a better finals than mj in 96?

As far as comparing the 2 mj is definitely the better player. He's more athletic and as skilled and played smarter more often. I just think the 2 head to head could be close

Seattle had a crazy defensive scheme in '96. We saw what Kobe did in 2004 vs Detroit. There's no reason to think he would have done any better than MJ when his performance against Detroit was much worse.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That's not saying much, Kobe never had a great finals series.

He was terrible in 2000 and matched the GmSC of Ron Harper, 2001 he had 50% TS, 2002 he was very good but he's still a sidekick, 2004 he was terrible, 2008 he was terrible, 2009 he was good but not great, 2010 he was mediocre.

[Phoenix]

Seattle had a crazy defensive scheme in '96. We saw what Kobe did in 2004 vs Detroit. There's no reason to think he would have done any better than MJ when his performance against Detroit was much worse.

A couple things stand out in these videos: 1) Payton was excellent in ball denial and pushing MJ off his comfort spots and 2) MJ was missing some makeable shots in some spots. The Sonics in general were playing great team defense and they're IMO an underrated team. They win a championship in a number of other years if Chicago isn't in the way( hell, they could have probably beaten the 98 Bulls if you dropped them in a time capsule).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYDlNV9W7No

Payton guarding MJ from game 1 would have been interesting. Question is at what cost to his offense....that said if Kobe is in that spot he's going to be facing the same kind of defense and by the late 2000's that kind of physicality was off the books. And outside of 2002, Kobe never came close to scratching a decent efficiency in the finals, even a generally recognized 'good' final like 2009.

[HoopsNY]

A couple things stand out in these videos: 1) Payton was excellent in ball denial and pushing MJ off his comfort spots and 2) MJ was missing some makeable shots in some spots. The Sonics in general were playing great team defense and they're IMO an underrated team. They win a championship in a number of other years if Chicago isn't in the way( hell, they could have probably beaten the 98 Bulls if you dropped them in a time capsule).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYDlNV9W7No

Payton guarding MJ from game 1 would have been interesting. Question is at what cost to his offense....that said if Kobe is in that spot he's going to be facing the same kind of defense and by the late 2000's that kind of physicality was off the books. And outside of 2002, Kobe never came close to scratching a decent efficiency in the finals, even a generally recognized 'good' final like 2009.

Yep. Agree completely. In addition, Kobe had poor shot selection and that becomes exacerbated with an injured Pippen who couldn't bring offense to the table. 2000-04 Kobe had Shaq to rely on to offset his woes.

[2much_knowledge]

Does anyone else find it interesting that the two worst posters by far (on this forum) are both rabid Kobe stans lol.

Shooter and corporation are not kobe stans

If you wanna include the next 4 worse. 8ball, 3ball, Hk (leonard lover) and and1 all day

None of them are Kobe stans

Lets go even further. Elitepower23 and firedavidkhan arent kobe stans either

[aj1987]

Shooter and corporation are not kobe stans

If you wanna include the next 4 worse. 8ball, 3ball, Hk (leonard lover) and and1 all day

None of them are Kobe stans

Lets go even further. Elitepower23 and firedavidkhan arent kobe stans either

No shit, you mouth breathing retard. That's why they aren't Kobe stans. They aren't retarded.

[Chick Stern]

When are they playing these Finals?
During the weakest decade - the 90s?
Or during the Aughts?