15' Cavs lost but Kyrie put them over top in 16', just like he would've in 18' or 21'

[3ba11]

.

*Why wasn't the historical precedent of Kyrie putting a team over the top in 2016 used to judge him in 2018 and 2021, when he would've put the Celtics and Nets over the top?

* Why is Boston viewed as better WITHOUT Kyrie in 2018 given the historical precedent of him making teams better?..

* Shouldn't Kyrie be viewed as a boss for leading a couple rookies to one of the best teams in the league in 2018?.. It's clear that if you put a couple decent players around Kyrie, he will have a contender (Celtics make 18' Finals with him, just like the 16' Cavs won with him).


^^^ this is the proper way to perceive Kyrie's basketball ability based on the actual facts and historical precedent, so why does the media go the opposite way of the facts and say the 18' Celtics were better without him? Didn't they see how Kyrie put the 16' Cavs over the top?

[FultzNationRISE]

Did he win the FMVP??

[3ba11]

Did he win the FMVP??


People have already disrespected Kawhi's 2019 ring, but imagine how much they'd hate it if Lowry had destroyed Curry like Kyrie did.. No one would care if a random statistical anomaly occurred where Kawhi happened to lead every category by 0.5 (shared load).. They would correctly say that it was Lowry's ring too, especially if they lost the prior year WITHOUT lowry (and lowry hit the goat shot to close the series)

[FultzNationRISE]

People have already disrespected Kawhi's 2019 ring, but imagine how much they'd hate it if Lowry had destroyed Curry like Kyrie did.. No one would care if a random statistical anomaly occurred where Kawhi happened to lead every category by 0.5 (shared load).. They would correctly say that it was Lowry's ring too, especially if they lost the prior year WITHOUT lowry

Kyrie played three years with the Cavs before LeElephantTrunk got there and unfortunately he didnt even sniff the playoffs.

He also achieved nothing meaningful during his time as the man in Boston. :(

Darn!

[3ba11]

Kyrie played three years with the Cavs before LeElephantTrunk got there and unfortunately he didnt even sniff the playoffs.

He also achieved nothing meaningful during his time as the man in Boston. :(

Darn!


Everyone is lottery in their first few years including Lebron, Kyrie, Giannis, Durant, and Curry..

But the 2018 regular season with rookies Tatum/Brown confirmed that if you put a couple decent players around Kyrie, he will have a contender (the Celtics make 18' Finals with him, just like the 16' Cavs won with him).

[Phoenix]

You mean like he did in 2017? :lol

[ShawkFactory]

So a good player makes a team he’s on better?

Fvck why hadn’t I thought of that

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2016-present Kyrie Irving is 2001 Kobe reincarnated

Kyle Lowry is Derek Fisher reincarnated :(


Pretty obvious who had more help at point guard.

[SouBeachTalents]

Sort of like how Pippen took a perennial first round loser in Chicago into eventual six time champions. Or Gasol who did the same thing with the Lakers.


It's clear that if you put a couple decent players around Kyrie, he will have a contender (Celtics make 18' Finals with him
Yeah, you’ll have to explain then how they went from a win away from the Finals to getting absolutely destroyed in a backdoor sweep in the 2nd round. Let’s see if 3ball ever acknowledges how Kyrie played in that series :lol My guess will be no.

And you’re full of shit about the Nets, if Harden’s healthy they beat the Bucks and cruise to a title last year without Kyrie.

[Phoenix]

OP has yet to give reasonings for why Kyrie on the 2018 Cavs puts them over the top, but he didn't put the 2017 Cavs over who basically got murked outside of one game when they hit like 25 3's( an anomaly).

[Phoenix]

Everyone is lottery in their first few years including Lebron, Kyrie, Giannis, Durant, and Curry..

But the 2018 regular season with rookies Tatum/Brown confirmed that if you put a couple decent players around Kyrie, he will have a contender (the Celtics make 18' Finals with him, just like the 16' Cavs won with him).

He had those guys in 2019 and lost in the 2nd round. The historical record suggest they were better off without him( same with the 2020 Nets).

[8Ball]

Sort of like how Pippen took a perennial first round loser in Chicago into eventual six time champions. Or Gasol who did the same thing with the Lakers.


Yeah, you’ll have to explain then how they went from a win away from the Finals to getting absolutely destroyed in a backdoor sweep in the 2nd round. Let’s see if 3ball ever acknowledges how Kyrie played in that series :lol My guess will be no.

And you’re full of shit about the Nets, if Harden’s healthy they beat the Bucks and cruise to a title last year without Kyrie.

This is true.

[SaintzFury13]

.

*Why wasn't the historical precedent of Kyrie putting a team over the top in 2016 used to judge him in 2018 and 2021, when he would've put the Celtics and Nets over the top?

Simple, because that isn't what happened. The second option on offense who does one thing elite doesn't put a team over the top.

And if you're so sure about 2018 then why didn't Kyrie put the Celtics over the top in 2019?


* Why is Boston viewed as better WITHOUT Kyrie in 2018 given the historical precedent of him making teams better?..

Because they literally played better without him.


* Shouldn't Kyrie be viewed as a boss for leading a couple rookies to one of the best teams in the league in 2018?.. It's clear that if you put a couple decent players around Kyrie, he will have a contender (Celtics make 18' Finals with him, just like the 16' Cavs won with him).

"A couple decent players".



^^^ this is the proper way to perceive Kyrie's basketball ability based on the actual facts and historical precedent

No it's not.


so why does the media go the opposite way of the facts and say the 18' Celtics were better without him? Didn't they see how Kyrie put the 16' Cavs over the top?[/I]

Because they actually watch the games.

[SaintzFury13]

Everyone is lottery in their first few years including Lebron, Kyrie, Giannis, Durant, and Curry..

But the 2018 regular season with rookies Tatum/Brown confirmed that if you put a couple decent players around Kyrie, he will have a contender (the Celtics make 18' Finals with him, just like the 16' Cavs won with him).

Jaylen Brown wasn't a rookie that season. He was in his second year in the league by the time Irving got traded to the team. The Celtics also had guys like Marcus Smart, Terry Rozier, Marcus Morris and Al Horford, who made second team all defense in 2018. They had loads of talent.

[3ba11]

Kyrie had Tatum/Brown in 2019 and lost in the 2nd round. The historical record suggest they were better off without him( same with the 2020 Nets).


Yes because Hayward's return in 2019 caused Tatum/Brown to have a 1-year drop across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), so the team was a shell of it's ECF strength from the 18' Playoffs or it's juggernaut status before Kyrie went down in the 18' regular season.

See the historical record here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498290-Was-race-a-factor-in-Kyrie-getting-blamed-for-Boston-when-it-was-Hayward-s-fault


So when Kyrie returns at the end of the regular season and puts the Nets into a new stratosphere, will you apologize?

[NBAGOAT]

Yes because Hayward's return in 2019 caused Tatum/Brown to have a 1-year drop across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), so the team was a shell of it's ECF strength from the 18' Playoffs or it's juggernaut status before Kyrie went down in the 18' regular season.

See the historical record here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498290-Was-race-a-factor-in-Kyrie-getting-blamed-for-Boston-when-it-was-Hayward-s-fault


So when Kyrie returns at the end of the regular season and puts the Nets into a new stratosphere, will you apologize?

Then how do you explain the Celtics making the conference finals in 2020 when they replaced Kyrie with a worse player in kemba and lost one of their best players in horford too? Hayward was still there to take away take away brown and tatums touches.

[Phoenix]

Yes because Hayward's return in 2019 caused Tatum/Brown to have a 1-year drop across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), so the team was a shell of it's ECF strength from the 18' Playoffs or it's juggernaut status before Kyrie went down in the 18' regular season.

See the historical record here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498290-Was-race-a-factor-in-Kyrie-getting-blamed-for-Boston-when-it-was-Hayward-s-fault


So when Kyrie returns at the end of the regular season and puts the Nets into a new stratosphere, will you apologize?

So how do you explain in 2020 Brooklyn being 8-12 with Kyrie, but 27-25 without him? The historical record shows the Nets were a better team without him.

That was easy. :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

Then how do you explain the Celtics making the conference finals in 2020 when they replaced Kyrie with a worse player in kemba and lost one of their best players in horford too? Hayward was still there to take away take away brown and tatums touches.

:oldlol:

Rest in piss 3nut.

[Phoenix]

Historical record:

2017 Cavs with Kyrie, finals. 2018 Cavs without Kyrie......finals :confusedshrug:
2018 Celtics no Kyrie, ECFs game 7.
2019 Celtics with Kyrie, limp-dicked to second round loss in 5 games
2020 Celtics no Kyrie, gets to ECFs
2020 Nets 8-12 with Kyrie, 27-25 without Kyrie

Conclusion: :roll::roll:

[NBAGOAT]

Other thing to add is bkn is still considered one of the favorites this year by people who actually watch games even without kyrie. They didn’t look good the 1st game but they still have the best duo in the league and a bunch of veterans. He really cut into hardens shot attempts last year which I didn’t love

[ImKobe]

Historical record:

2017 Cavs with Kyrie, finals. 2018 Cavs without Kyrie......finals :confusedshrug:
2018 Celtics no Kyrie, ECFs game 7.
2019 Celtics with Kyrie, limp-dicked to second round loss in 5 games
2020 Celtics no Kyrie, gets to ECFs
2020 Nets 8-12 with Kyrie, 27-25 without Kyrie

Conclusion: :roll::roll:

The East was weak so of course they could make the Finals without him, it's not like they got 0 return for him and he left in FA.. Irving's team would have made the Finals in '18 if not for his injury. Celtics made the ECF because they played weak opponents and lucked out in the first round against a horrible Bucks team that should have beat them if not for the refs. Sixers are a disaster every year and of course they choked away all those close games with Ben Simmons and a fragile Embiid.

The 2020 argument is dumb as **** as well because he got injured in 2 of those games and they choked numerous ones away and it wasn't because of him.

Look at the Nets last year.. they were up 2 - 1 on Milwaukee and he gets injured and they lose 3 out of 4 games, even with Harden and Jeff Green returning.

[SouBeachTalents]

The East was weak so of course they could make the Finals without him, it's not like they got 0 return for him and he left in FA.. Irving's team would have made the Finals in '18 if not for his injury. Celtics made the ECF because they played weak opponents and lucked out in the first round against a horrible Bucks team that should have beat them if not for the refs. Sixers are a disaster every year and of course they choked away all those close games with Ben Simmons and a fragile Embiid.

The 2020 argument is dumb as **** as well because he got injured in 2 of those games and they choked numerous ones away and it wasn't because of him.

Look at the Nets last year.. they were up 2 - 1 on Milwaukee and he gets injured and they lose 3 out of 4 games, even with Harden and Jeff Green returning.
What's hilarious is if Kyrie had played in 2018 and they actually made the Finals, this argument would look completely different. That "horrible Bucks team" would turn into "He beat Giannis/Middleton in the first round!". The Sixers would go from "a disaster every year" to "He beat a 50 win Sixers team with Embiid/Simmons in the second round!"

Let's be real, if Kyrie had actually made the Finals his first season without LeBron, he would hype the SHIT out of that run :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

The East was weak so of course they could make the Finals without him, it's not like they got 0 return for him and he left in FA.. Irving's team would have made the Finals in '18 if not for his injury. Celtics made the ECF because they played weak opponents and lucked out in the first round against a horrible Bucks team that should have beat them if not for the refs. Sixers are a disaster every year and of course they choked away all those close games with Ben Simmons and a fragile Embiid.

The 2020 argument is dumb as **** as well because he got injured in 2 of those games and they choked numerous ones away and it wasn't because of him.

Look at the Nets last year.. they were up 2 - 1 on Milwaukee and he gets injured and they lose 3 out of 4 games, even with Harden and Jeff Green returning.

Harden was a shell of himself when he returned and you obviously know that, speaking of dumb as **** arguments. If Harden returned at full strength alongside Durant the Nets likely win that series.

Simple reality is there is no evidence, that Kyrie tangibly impacts the win column all that much. Nobody is disputing his talent. What's your reasoning for the Nets having a losing record with him and a winning one without? One wonders if he wasnt a Kobe disciple if you'd still be going to bat for him.

[3ba11]

So how do you explain in 2020 Brooklyn being 8-12 with Kyrie, but 27-25 without him? The historical record shows the Nets were a better team without him.

That was easy. :confusedshrug:


No sample

Otoh, the 15' Cavs clearly couldn't win without Kyrie, but he put them over the top in 2016 - it's as clear as day - he even hit the winning shot (closed), which is what the 15' Cavs and 18' Celtics lacked (21' Nets too)

[Phoenix]

No sample

Otoh, the 15' Cavs clearly couldn't win without Kyrie, but he put them over the top in 2016 - it's as clear as day - he even hit the winning shot (closed), which is what the 15' Cavs and 18' Celtics lacked (21' Nets too)

It's clear as day that the 2020 Nets werent going to make the playoffs with Kyrie. An 8-12 record with and 27-25 without, pretty telling stuff.

[3ba11]

It's clear as day that the 2020 Nets werent going to make the playoffs with Kyrie. An 8-12 record with and 27-25 without, pretty telling stuff.


The definition of no sample

Otoh, the 18' Celtics were the league juggernaut with Kyrie, while the 16' Cavs won the title and 21' Nets were destroying Giannis with just KD/Kyrie (2-0 lead including record blowout)

So the big samples show that Kyrie puts teams over the top

[Phoenix]

The definition of no sample

Otoh, the 18' Celtics were the league juggernaut with Kyrie, while the 16' Cavs won the title and 21' Nets were destroying Giannis with just KD/Kyrie (2-0 lead including record blowout)

So the big samples show that Kyrie puts teams over the top

The 2020 season had 72 games. A 20 game sample is almost 1/3 of the season. That's more than enough of a sample to show that the Nets were better off without him. The 18 Celtics( actually the 19 Celtics) were 55 wins and the 4th best record, hardly 'the' juggernaut (classic hyperbolic BS from you) and then they get bounced from the playoffs in 5.

You used one 'game winning shot' as if THAT is some large sample size.

[3ba11]

The 2020 season had 72 games. A 20 game sample is almost 1/3 of the season. That's more than enough of a sample to show that the Nets were better off without him. The 18 Celtics( actually the 19 Celtics) were 55 wins and the 4th best record, hardly 'the' juggernaut (classic hyperbolic BS from you) and then they get bounced from the playoffs in 5.

You used one 'game winning shot' as if THAT is some large sample size.


Hayward's return destroyed the 19' Celtics as Tatum/Brown saw 1-year drops across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), so they were a shell of their ECF strength from 2018 Playoffs, or their juggernaut status in the regular season before Kyrie got hurt.

Ultimately, the 18' Celtics with Kyrie/Tatum/Brown easily destroy the Lebron/Love Cavs in 2018, while the 21' Nets easily title with Kyrie, just like Kyrie put the 16' Cavs over the top

[RRR3]

The 2020 season had 72 games. A 20 game sample is almost 1/3 of the season. That's more than enough of a sample to show that the Nets were better off without him. The 18 Celtics( actually the 19 Celtics) were 55 wins and the 4th best record, hardly 'the' juggernaut (classic hyperbolic BS from you) and then they get bounced from the playoffs in 5.

You used one 'game winning shot' as if THAT is some large sample size.
Another brutal, merciless beatdown of 3ball. Ouch.

[3ba11]

Another brutal, merciless beatdown of 3ball. Ouch.


Nope, my response to that trash is shown above, and it destroys Phoenix,. like I always do him

[RRR3]

Nope, my response to that trash is shown above, and it destroys Phoenix,. like I always do him
You’ve never destroyed anyone in your entire time on ISH. You ever wonder why no one is agreeing with you in these arguments? Even other LeBron haters think you’re nuts.

[3ba11]

You’ve never destroyed anyone in your entire time on ISH. You ever wonder why no one is agreeing with you in these arguments? Even other LeBron haters think you’re nuts.


I always destroy you guys because you never played or were never professional analyst so I educate you guys with such unique viewpoint

[Phoenix]

Hayward's return destroyed the 19' Celtics as Tatum/Brown saw 1-year drops across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), so they were a shell of their ECF strength from 2018 Playoffs, or their juggernaut status in the regular season before Kyrie got hurt.

Ultimately, the 18' Celtics with Kyrie/Tatum/Brown easily destroy the Lebron/Love Cavs in 2018, while the 21' Nets easily title with Kyrie, just like Kyrie put the 16' Cavs over the top

As as already said, the 2020 team rebounded with Kemba Walker, basically Coke Zero Kyrie, and returned to the ECFs. You can keep repeating the same bullshit and I can keep saying that the same team rebounded the very next season with him gone.

[NBAGOAT]

Hayward's return destroyed the 19' Celtics as Tatum/Brown saw 1-year drops across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), so they were a shell of their ECF strength from 2018 Playoffs, or their juggernaut status in the regular season before Kyrie got hurt.

Ultimately, the 18' Celtics with Kyrie/Tatum/Brown easily destroy the Lebron/Love Cavs in 2018, while the 21' Nets easily title with Kyrie, just like Kyrie put the 16' Cavs over the top

You still haven’t addressed 2020. Also you continue to disrespect Boston’s actual 2nd best player in horford because he doesn’t score a lot.

[Phoenix]

Nope, my response to that trash is shown above, and it destroys Phoenix,. like I always do him

Your response is the same bullshit thats already been beaten down. No reply whatsoever to why Kemba Walker replaced Kyrie and the team is better off for it. Takes zero effort to repel your bullshit, like I always do.

[SouBeachTalents]

As as already said, the 2020 team rebounded with Kemba Walker, basically Coke Zero Kyrie, and returned to the ECFs. You can keep repeating the same bullshit and I can keep saying that the same team rebounded the very next season with him gone.
'89 Pippen

[Phoenix]

You still haven’t addressed 2020. Also you continue to disrespect Boston’s actual 2nd best player in horford because he doesn’t score a lot.

And he won't despite you and I both bringing it up. Because it kills his argument. Had the Celtics continued the slide once Kyrie left he'd have a point but the fact that they went back to the conference finals immediately shits all over him, but what else is new?

[Phoenix]

'89 Pippen

09 Mo :cheers:

[Phoenix]

I always destroy you guys because you never played or were never professional analyst so I educate you guys with such unique viewpoint

:roll: at this retarded trash.

[3ba11]

As as already said, the 2020 team rebounded with Kemba Walker, basically Coke Zero Kyrie, and returned to the ECFs. You can keep repeating the same bullshit and I can keep saying that the same team rebounded the very next season with him gone.


The 2018 Celtics were expected to make the ECF with Kyrie, so them making it without him doesn't prove they were better without him.... because they were expected to do the same thing with him!!!!

Do you understand that?

And the 2020 season is irrelevant because they only made the ECF - if they went further than what was expected from the Kyrie teams, then you might have something.. but they only matched what was expected with Kyrie

[SouBeachTalents]

The 2018 Celtics were expected to make the ECF with Kyrie, so them making it without him doesn't prove they were better without him.... because they were expected to do the same thing with him!!!!

Do you understand that?

And the 2020 season is irrelevant because they only made the ECF - if they went further than what was expected from the Kyrie teams, then you might have something.. but they only matched what was expected with Kyrie
It's not irrelevant that from 2017-20 the only time the Celtics failed to make the conference finals was with Kyrie :lol Not only that, they weren't even close, they got absolutely destroyed in a backdoor sweep in the 2nd round. And since you like preseason odds so much, they had the 2nd highest odds in the league that season and were huge favorites to win the East.

[Phoenix]

The 2018 Cavs were expected to make the ECF with Kyrie, so them making it without him doesn't prove they were better without him.... because they were expected to do the same thing with him!!!!

Do you understand that?

And the 2020 season is irrelevant because they only made the ECF - if they went further than was expected with Kyrie, then you might have something

I assume you mean the 2018 Celtics, not Cavs, and Kyrie on the team doesnt improve their chances because hes a demonstrated chemistry killer. If the expectation was that they make the conference finals with Kyrie....and they made it without....then how does that in any way suggest that Kyrie was a requirement? They met expectations without him.:oldlol:

Do you understand that?

And the 2020 season is very relevant to this conversation, because it shows that the Celtics made it further without him(2020) than the prior year with him(2019). Showing once again that hes not a positive influence on a team, especially a young one in need of leadership. Now if your team already has leadership and you want someone to drop 25-30 and not be responsible for playmaking/leadership, Kyrie's your guy.

[Phoenix]

It's not irrelevant that from 2017-20 the only time the Celtics failed to make the conference finals was with Kyrie :lol Not only that, they weren't even close, they got absolutely destroyed in a backdoor sweep in the 2nd round. And since you like preseason odds so much, they had the 2nd highest odds in the league that season and were huge favorites to win the East.

At this point he's spinning in circles over his own retarded takes.

[ShawkFactory]

I always destroy you guys because you never played or were never professional analyst so I educate you guys with such unique viewpoint

You destroy people in a sense that you get them to entertain your bullshit. It’s weird that that’s something you require as an adult, but you do a good job of it.

[RRR3]

I always destroy you guys because you never played or were never professional analyst so I educate you guys with such unique viewpoint
You never played professionally or were a professional analyst either last time I checked, Snivelly.

[3ba11]

It's not irrelevant that from 2017-20 the only time the Celtics failed to make the conference finals was with Kyrie :lol Not only that, they weren't even close, they got absolutely destroyed in a backdoor sweep in the 2nd round. And since you like preseason odds so much, they had the 2nd highest odds in the league that season and were huge favorites to win the East.


Hayward's return messed the team up in 2019

And by 2020, Tatum was a superstar All-NBA and Brown was also a star

So you're just a liar and fake Lebron shill that distorts facts and misrepresents.. only to get exposed by 3ball

[Phoenix]

Hayward's return messed the team up in 2019

And by 2020, Tatum was a superstar All-NBA and Brown was also a star



Something that Kyrie's presence was stifling so once again, thanks for making the point that the Celtics were better off without him, or else he'd have returned to the team. 3ball getting exposed by 3ball. :cheers:

[SaintzFury13]

The 2018 Celtics were expected to make the ECF with Kyrie, so them making it without him doesn't prove they were better without him.... because they were expected to do the same thing with him!!!!

No, them playing better basketball on both ends of the floor without him proves they were better without him.

This is why you should watch the games.


And the 2020 season is irrelevant because they only made the ECF - if they went further than what was expected from the Kyrie teams, then you might have something.. but they only matched what was expected with Kyrie

Are you retarded?

[SaintzFury13]

Hayward's return messed the team up in 2019

If Gordon Hayward is the reason the Celtics didn't even make it to the ECF in 2019, then Kyrie is not as great as you are making him out to be. LeBron lost Kyrie in 2018, as well as going through mid season trades for numerous players, and still made it to the NBA Finals that season. You're telling me Kyrie getting a key teammate back screwed things up that much to the point where he couldn't even get a loaded Boston team out of the semis?

So either it's Kyrie's fault, or Kyrie is simply not as great of a player as you make him out to be. Which is it?

[3ba11]

21' and apparently 22' (this year)

This season is confirming the thread title and OP

[3ba11]

So the Nets are trash without Kyrie, so the thread title is exactly accurate

[SouBeachTalents]

3rd best record in the league is “trash” :lol

[Axe]

Yet 1st in east? :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

3rd best record in the league is “trash” :lol


It's obvious that they can't compete with the top teams and aren't championship caliber

Otoh, just Durant and Kyrie (no harden) was demolishing Giannis by record amount and a shoe-in for the title last year b4 injury