Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #33

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - Dwyane Wade
#24 - Elgin Baylor
#25 - Scottie Pippen
#26 - Giannis Antetokounmpo
#27 - John Havlicek
#28 - Isiah Thomas
#29 - Bob Pettit
#30 - Chris Paul
#31 - Kawhi Leonard
#32 - Rick Barry
#33 - VOTING NOW

Top 50 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Bob Cousy - 2 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni)
James Harden - 2 (TheCorporation, 000
John Stockton - 1 (Manny98)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)

[dankok8]

I vote for Steve Nash who led his Dallas and Phoenix teams to #1 or #2 ORtg for 9 straight seasons. I find him a better player than either Stockton or Kidd.

[ELITEpower23]

Bob Cousy

[1987_Lakers]

Tossup between Nash and Ewing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Harden, I honestly don't see anybody else's argument over him that still remains.

[Phoenix]

I feel like Stockton's overall body of work and consistency fits somewhere in here, but of all the names I'm throwing around in my head( Harden, Nash, Kidd, Iverson, Ewing) he had the lowest peak. There's still some MVP winners or at least MVP level guys still on the table.

I'll go with Harden. Have never cared for his style and he has a few well-documented playoff flameouts but the guy is a baller: 25/7/6 61% TS career averages, 3 scoring titles, an assist title, 7 time all-NBA, 6th man, MVP.

[Honor Boost]

Kawhi is in so Harden is who I'll go with now.

[Airupthere]

Ewing for me. One of the best centers all time.

[DevBooker'sMask]

James Edward Harden Jr.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/JamesHardenWSH.jpg/800px-JamesHardenWSH.jpg

[Kobe_Bryant]

this might be the first time since the 90s that any list had Rick barry ahead of John Stockton

this is shaping up to be one of the most rare and disturbing all time rankings in message board history. keep it up ish...

and I like Rick barry but... Jesus lmao

[Kobe_Bryant]

where's George mikan btw

[RRR3]

Harden.

[Lebron_James]

Steve Nash

[SouBeachTalents]

this might be the first time since the 90s that any list had Rick barry ahead of John Stockton

this is shaping up to be one of the most rare and disturbing all time rankings in message board history. keep it up ish...

and I like Rick barry but... Jesus lmao
It's got Kobe outside the top 10 like many other lists do, so it got that right at least.

[LBJ]

George Mikan. I Dont know how that one was missed. I was going to put Ewing at first.

[SouBeachTalents]

where's George mikan btw


George Mikan. I Dont know how that one was missed. I was going to put Ewing at first.
If y'all pay attention to the title, I'm confident you can figure it out

[1987_Lakers]

this might be the first time since the 90s that any list had Rick barry ahead of John Stockton

this is shaping up to be one of the most rare and disturbing all time rankings in message board history. keep it up ish...

and I like Rick barry but... Jesus lmao

In the #32 thread you were arguing that Kawhi should be ranked ahead of CP3 because he has more major awards/accomplishments, well guess what, Barry has a ring as the main dog while Stockton doesn't have any rings, made more All-Star teams & has made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton, be consistent.

[LBJ]

If y'all pay attention to the title, I'm confident you can figure it out

Ok. Then voting Ewing.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Vote tally

James Harden - 7 (TheCorporation, 000, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, Honor Boost, DevBooker'sMask, RRR3 )
Bob Cousy - 3 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ElitePower23)
Steve Nash - 2 ( Dankok8, Lebron_James)
Patrick Ewing - 2 ( Airupthere, LBJ)
John Stockton - 1 (Manny98)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)

[SouBeachTalents]

In the #32 thread you were arguing that Kawhi should be ranked ahead of CP3 because he has more major awards/accomplishments, well guess what, Barry has a ring as the main dog while Stockton doesn't have any rings, made more All-Star teams & has made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton, be consistent.
He has. He's consistently melted down in every poll since Kobe was ranked outside the top 10 :oldlol:

[colts19]

Steve Nash, then Harden.

[Round Mound]

Patrick Ewing

[Nike D'Antoni]

Vote tally

James Harden - 7 (TheCorporation, 000, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, Honor Boost, DevBooker'sMask, RRR3 )
Bob Cousy - 3 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ElitePower23)
Steve Nash - 3 ( Dankok8, Lebron_James,colts19)
Patrick Ewing - 3 ( Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound)
John Stockton - 1 (Manny98)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)

[francesco totti]

John Stockton

[Nike D'Antoni]

Some profile on those being voted in

James Harden

NBA Most Valuable Player (2018)
9× NBA All-Star (2013–2021)
6× All-NBA First Team (2014, 2015, 2017–2020)
All-NBA Third Team (2013)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2012)
3× NBA scoring champion (2018–2020)
NBA assists leader (2017)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2010)
NBA 75th Anniversary Team


Bob Cousy

6× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
13× NBA All-Star (1951–1963)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1954, 1957)
10× All-NBA First Team (1952–1961)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8× NBA assists leader (1953–1960)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary Team
NBA 75th Anniversary Team
No. 14 retired by Boston Celtics

Steve Nash

2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2005, 2006)
8× NBA All-Star (2002, 2003, 2005–2008, 2010, 2012)
3× All-NBA First Team (2005–2007)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2008, 2010)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2002, 2003)
5× NBA assists leader (2005–2007, 2010, 2011)
4× 50–40–90 club (2006, 2008–2010)
Phoenix Suns Ring of Honor
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (2007)
NBA 75th Anniversary Team

Patrick Ewing

11× NBA All-Star (1986, 1988–1997)
All-NBA First Team (1990)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988, 1989, 1991–1993, 1997)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1988, 1989, 1992)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1986)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1986)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
NBA's 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
No. 33 retired by New York Knicks
NCAA champion (1984)

John Stockton

10× NBA All-Star (1989–1997, 2000)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1993)
2× All-NBA First Team (1994, 1995)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988–1990, 1992, 1993, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1997, 1999)
5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1989, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1997)
9× NBA assists leader (1988–1996)
2× NBA steals leader (1989, 1992)
NBA 50th Anniversary Team
NBA 75th Anniversary Team
No. 12 retired by Utah Jazz


Jason Kidd

NBA champion (2011)
10× NBA All-Star (1996, 1998, 2000–2004, 2007, 2008, 2010)
5× All-NBA First Team (1999–2002, 2004)
All-NBA Second Team (2003)
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1999, 2001, 2002, 2006)
5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2000, 2003–2005, 2007)
NBA Co-Rookie of the Year (1995)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1995)
5× NBA assists leader (1999–2001, 2003, 2004)
2× NBA Sportsmanship Award (2012, 2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2007)
NBA 75th Anniversary Team
No. 5 retired by Brooklyn Nets

[Chick Stern]

Cousy, and it is not particularly close

Harden plays no defense, and has not won squat

[Airupthere]

I notice that branstans mostly want players of this era to populate the top 30. Lol. No respect for past players just like lebron.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Vote tally

James Harden - 7 (TheCorporation, 000, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, Honor Boost, DevBooker'sMask, RRR3 )
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ElitePower23, Chick Stern)
Steve Nash - 3 ( Dankok8, Lebron_James,colts19)
Patrick Ewing - 3 ( Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)


20 votes in.

[ELITEpower23]

I notice that branstans mostly want players of this era to populate the top 30. Lol. No respect for past players just like lebron.

Tissue?

[Kobe_Bryant]

anyone else know why this list is only the top 50 according to a few dorks and not a top 75 all time list like every other outlet


OP wasn't using his head on this one lol

[Kobe_Bryant]

If y'all pay attention to the title, I'm confident you can figure it out

all that really cuts out is george mikan. makes no sense lol

[dankok8]

Vote people!

[fsvr54]

Mitch Richmond or Clyde Frazier

[Phoenix]

Mitch Richmond or Clyde Frazier

:coleman:

[Phoenix]

anyone else know why this list is only the top 50 according to a few dorks and not a top 75 all time list like every other outlet


OP wasn't using his head on this one lol

Because we're struggling to get people to vote in the 30s, you really think this board is going to be interested up till 75?

[fsvr54]

:coleman:

I care a lot more about skill and talent than accomplishments

[Phoenix]

I care a lot more about skill and talent than accomplishments

By that reckoning Mitch Richmond still ain't remotely close to being in the discussion at this point, and I liked the guy back in the day.

[ELITEpower23]

Mitch Richmond or Clyde Frazier

And this is when the voting system goes to shit. Right after the top 30 mark like clockwork :oldlol:

[jlip]

Harden

[fsvr54]

By that reckoning Mitch Richmond still ain't remotely close to being in the discussion at this point, and I liked the guy back in the day.

Your opinion.

[Phoenix]

Your opinion.

No shit.

[Phoenix]

And this is when the voting system goes to shit. Right after the top 30 mark like clockwork :oldlol:

Exactly, and people are asking why we aren't voting to 75 :oldlol:? Shit's about to fly right off the tracks.

[RRR3]

Mitch Richmond or Clyde Frazier
Richmond lmaoooooooo :roll:

[Chick Stern]

Harden plays no defense
fify

[Kobe_Bryant]

Because we're struggling to get people to vote in the 30s, you really think this board is going to be interested up till 75?

I dont think this board was interested after the 11th pick tbh

[Phoenix]

I dont think this board was interested after the 11th pick tbh

Out of interest, when was the last time you actually voted?

[Nike D'Antoni]

1987_Lakers, Kobe_bryant please vote something.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Out of interest, when was the last time you actually voted?

17th but none of my votes were even being counted so I quit

[1987_Lakers]

In the #32 thread you were arguing that Kawhi should be ranked ahead of CP3 because he has more major awards/accomplishments, well guess what, Barry has a ring as the main dog while Stockton doesn't have any rings, made more All-Star teams & has made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton, be consistent.

of course Kenny ignores this post.

[L.Kizzle]

I always wondered why guys like Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld never get mentioned this early. They're MVPs and Finals MVP and led their teams to titles. That usually is what gets a high ranking.

[dankok8]

I always wondered why guys like Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld never get mentioned this early. They're MVPs and Finals MVP and led their teams to titles. That usually is what gets a high ranking.

Who's your vote?

I didn't really consider Unseld because I don't think he received his MVP or FMVP! Reed and Cowens definitely should get consideration IMO.

[jlip]

I already voted for Harden. I believe that Reed belongs somewhere in this tier, but one knock against him if I am nitpicking is that while he accomplished quite a bit in a short period of time, his career was relatively short.

[dankok8]

I already voted for Harden. I believe that Reed belongs somewhere in this tier, but one knock against him if I am nitpicking is that while he accomplished quite a bit in a short period of time, his career was relatively short.

Yea... Reed's longevity is terrible. We're talking Giannis level except he wasn't as good as Giannis.

[Phoenix]

I always wondered why guys like Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld never get mentioned this early. They're MVPs and Finals MVP and led their teams to titles. That usually is what gets a high ranking.

I have Cowens and Reed coming up over the next 10 picks but we still have Stockton, Nash, Ewing, Iverson floating out there, maybe Drexler too in this range.

[Phoenix]

Jlip said he's already voted for Harden( his name is not shown as a Harden vote for some reason), so we should be at 9 votes for him.

[dankok8]

Jlip said he's already voted for Harden( his name is not shown as a Harden vote for some reason), so we should be at 9 votes for him.

I have jlip under Harden. We only had 8 votes for Harden but I am switching my vote to him since Nash isn't going to win this one so we have 9 for Harden.

Current Vote Tally

James Harden - 9 (TheCorporation, 000, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, Honor Boost, DevBooker'sMask, RRR3, jlip, dankok8)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Patrick Ewing - 3 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Steve Nash - 2 (Lebron_James, colts19)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)

[Kobe_Bryant]

of course Kenny ignores this post.


dunno why you keep calling me kenny but...

kawhi and cp3 are from the same era. their accomplishments are comparable.


stockton is a top 5 point guard ever and #1 in assists all time with 9 straight assist titles and 16 all nba/defensive teams

hes literally half responsible for karl malones 37,000 points and spoon fed him for open jumpers for 20 years. malone was basically the amare stoudemire of his time but way healthier and he stayed with the guy that made him. he has almost no 1 on 1 skills or individual dominance. everything was off the pick and roll. theres a reason the #2 all time scorer is ranked around 20th all time on most lists. stockton lost twice to michael jordan in the finals. theres no shame in that at all. hes been underrated lately due to some BS narrative about how he rarely dribbles left handed. who cares. its about production and respect.


you don't just pass a guy like that with a title and finals mvp


rick barrys best attribute was shooting and its arguable stockton was better than rick at that too

rick barry has become underrated over the years but ranking him above stockton is overkill

if there was an all time draft for next season the point guard position would go

#1 Magic
#2 Steph
#3 Stockton


if there was an all time draft for small forwards there would be 20 guys selected before Barry

[outofstomach]

harden, generational scorer. this narrative that he plays no defense still needs to die, he isn’t fantastic on that end, but he’s respectable and im pretty sure there was a stat lying around somewhere that put him as one of the best post defenders in the NBA

[dankok8]

dunno why you keep calling me kenny but...

kawhi and cp3 are from the same era. their accomplishments are comparable.


stockton is a top 5 point guard ever and #1 in assists all time with 9 straight assist titles and 16 all nba/defensive teams

hes literally half responsible for karl malones 37,000 points and spoon fed him for open jumpers for 20 years. malone was basically the amare stoudemire of his time but way healthier and he stayed with the guy that made him. he has almost no 1 on 1 skills or individual dominance. everything was off the pick and roll. theres a reason the #2 all time scorer is ranked around 20th all time on most lists. stockton lost twice to michael jordan in the finals. theres no shame in that at all. hes been underrated lately due to some BS narrative about how he rarely dribbles left handed. who cares. its about production and respect.


you don't just pass a guy like that with a title and finals mvp


rick barrys best attribute was shooting and its arguable stockton was better than rick at that too

rick barry has become underrated over the years but ranking him above stockton is overkill

if there was an all time draft for next season the point guard position would go

#1 Magic
#2 Steph
#3 Stockton


if there was an all time draft for small forwards there would be 20 guys selected before Barry

Stockton's longevity is overblown. He was basically a role player his first 3 seasons and his last 6 seasons. He made about as many all-star games as Nash, Paul, Payton etc. and all those guys were better than him. Stockton could pass the basketball although at least 5-10 guys in NBA history had better vision and he could shoot but he never had a scorer's mentality. He was a very good defender but all in all he was honestly 3rd option type player overall. If he was your 2nd best offensive player you'd struggle to win titles.

As for Barry that's an ignorant take. Barry is a consensus top 10 SF of all time and arguably as high as #5.

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

James Harden - 10 (TheCorporation, 000, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, Honor Boost, DevBooker'sMask, RRR3, jlip, dankok8, outofstomach)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Patrick Ewing - 3 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Steve Nash - 2 (Lebron_James, colts19)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)

Harden wins.

[HunterSThompson]

Stockton's longevity is overblown. He was basically a role player his first 3 seasons and his last 6 seasons. He made about as many all-star games as Nash, Paul, Payton etc. and all those guys were better than him. Stockton could pass the basketball although at least 5-10 guys in NBA history had better vision and he could shoot but he never had a scorer's mentality. He was a very good defender but all in all he was honestly 3rd option type player overall. If he was your 2nd best offensive player you'd struggle to win titles.

As for Barry that's an ignorant take. Barry is a consensus top 10 SF of all time and arguably as high as #5.

stockton would still be 2nd all time in assists with 10,475 ahead of steve nash, mark jackson, chris paul and magic johnson even if you took away his first 3 seasons and last 6 seasons

thats just his totals from 1988 to 1997 when he averaged 16ppg/13apg/3stls with 52%fg's and 40% threes

[Kobe_Bryant]

stockton would still be 2nd all time in assists with 10,475 ahead of steve nash, mark jackson, chris paul and magic johnson even if you took away his first 3 seasons and last 6 seasons

thats just his totals from 1988 to 1997 when he averaged 16ppg/13apg/3stls with 52%fg's and 40% threes



https://www.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/kobe.jpg

[dankok8]

stockton would still be 2nd all time in assists with 10,475 ahead of steve nash, mark jackson, chris paul and magic johnson even if you took away his first 3 seasons and last 6 seasons

thats just his totals from 1988 to 1997 when he averaged 16ppg/13apg/3stls with 52%fg's and 40% threes

Stockton wasn't close to the passer Nash was. Ben Taylor studied hundreds of hours of Stockton film and said that he had good but not elite court vision.