Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #34

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - Dwyane Wade
#24 - Elgin Baylor
#25 - Scottie Pippen
#26 - Giannis Antetokounmpo
#27 - John Havlicek
#28 - Isiah Thomas
#29 - Bob Pettit
#30 - Chris Paul
#31 - Kawhi Leonard
#32 - Rick Barry
#33 - James Harden
#34 - VOTING NOW

Top 50 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Patrick Ewing - 3 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Steve Nash - 2 (Lebron_James, colts19)
Jason Kidd - 1 (gonzaldo)

[dankok8]

Still going with Nash.

One other guy that should be getting love among old school players that no one mentioned is Elvin Hayes.

[TheCorporation]

It's between Cousy and Kidd for me. Still deciding.

[Airupthere]

Yep, still going with ewing

[Phoenix]

Alot of players get to play their entire careers under mostly one set of rules, but with Steve Nash..... the way the rule changes in 2005 took him from like a lower top ten PG to the best in the league and able to have MVP impact twice...at 31 years old.... I don't know if I'm being unfair to at least consider it somewhat of a factor. Nash should be ranked in the 30s, but I'm not ready to go there just yet.

I'll go with Jason Kidd.

What's the general thoughts on Iverson, or he isn't an advanced statboys wet dream so he's not part of the discussion yet?

[SouBeachTalents]

These spots could go to virtually anybody now. I’ll go Ewing

[L.Kizzle]

These spots could go to virtually anybody now. I’ll go Ewing
Ewing vs Drexler?

[L.Kizzle]

If James Harden is this high, shouldn't George Gervin be as well?

[Phoenix]

Ewing vs Drexler?

I would argue they had roughly equal careers, maybe a slight edge to Ewing. Both of them fell just short of leading their teams to a chip, Clyde got his as 2nd fiddle to Hakeem but I don't think that swings the tide over to him.

[Lebron23]

Patrick Ewing

[Nike D'Antoni]

Patrick Ewing - 5 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Steve Nash - 3 (Lebron_James, colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Jason Kidd - 2 (gonzaldo, Phoenix)

We have to start using the elimination format. Like after one day the lowest vote-getter gets eliminated ( like right now Kidd or Stockton) because I this way we will struggle reaching 10 votes for one particular player. Harden barely sneaked in with Dankok8 modifying his vote.

[dankok8]

Alot of players get to play their entire careers under mostly one set of rules, but with Steve Nash..... the way the rule changes in 2005 took him from like a lower top ten PG to the best in the league and able to have MVP impact twice...at 31 years old.... I don't know if I'm being unfair to at least consider it somewhat of a factor. Nash should be ranked in the 30s, but I'm not ready to go there just yet.

I'll go with Jason Kidd.

What's the general thoughts on Iverson, or he isn't an advanced statboys wet dream so he's not part of the discussion yet?

It is a bit unfair lol

Nash led a top 2 offenses for 9 straight seasons... 3 in Dallas then 6 in Phoenix and even in years Amare and other players were hurt. I honestly don't see a much of a case for Kidd over Nash unless you value his ring as a role player in Dallas very highly.

[L.Kizzle]

It is a bit unfair lol

Nash led a top 2 offenses for 9 straight seasons... 3 in Dallas then 6 in Phoenix and even in years Amare and other players were hurt. I honestly don't see a much of a case for Kidd over Nash unless you value his ring as a role player in Dallas very highly.
He was the better defender and took his team farther.
Nash has the MVPs tho.

[Phoenix]

It is a bit unfair lol

Nash led a top 2 offenses for 9 straight seasons... 3 in Dallas then 6 in Phoenix and even in years Amare and other players were hurt. I honestly don't see a much of a case for Kidd over Nash unless you value his ring as a role player in Dallas very highly.

I'm aware of what he did, but how much of that could be attributed to Dirk as well? Hell, in Nash's last season in Dallas(04) they were 1st, the following seasons without him Dallas was 4th in 05 and 1st in 06. The offense didn't exactly fall off a cliff when he left.

No I don't count Kidd's ring as a role player, I just think their careers are pretty comparable and I just lean Kidd for being a better 2-way player. And, Kidd was already a top flight MVP level player before the rule changes( 2nd in 2002 behind Duncan). It took the changes to vault Nash to that level or else he probably remains a lower top 10 PG. All-star level, but not back to back MVP in a period when guys like Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk are all in their peaks/primes.

[1987_Lakers]

Ewing

[1987_Lakers]

If James Harden is this high, shouldn't George Gervin be as well?

Gervin wishes he had Harden's playmaking ability.


Ewing vs Drexler?

Ewing, pretty easily. His impact on the game was way higher if you factor in defense, also had a longer prime.

[gonzaldo]

Nash was a system player, Kidd wasnt and he had a bit better longevity.

[Phoenix]

Kidd was making all-nba first or second team right up until 2004, and Nash was a well-established player at that point making third team. So for the first half of their careers, Kidd was clearly better. Enter rules changes, and Nash immediately becomes a first team/MVP level player at an age when most guards slow down a bit, bolstered by D'Antoni's system( we saw the wonders it did for Harden's production).

[Nike D'Antoni]

Patrick Ewing - 6 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Steve Nash - 3 (Lebron_James, colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Jason Kidd - 2 (gonzaldo, Phoenix)

[dankok8]

I'm aware of what he did, but how much of that could be attributed to Dirk as well? Hell, in Nash's last season in Dallas(04) they were 1st, the following seasons without him Dallas was 4th in 05 and 1st in 06. The offense didn't exactly fall off a cliff when he left.

No I don't count Kidd's ring as a role player, I just think their careers are pretty comparable and I just lean Kidd for being a better 2-way player. And, Kidd was already a top flight MVP level player before the rule changes( 2nd in 2002 behind Duncan). It took the changes to vault Nash to that level or else he probably remains a lower top 10 PG. All-star level, but not back to back MVP in a period when guys like Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk are all in their peaks/primes.

Sure Dirk had something to do with Dallas' offensive dominance. I can't dispute that. However, Dallas' playoff offenses were much better with Nash than without him. The Mavs' offenses were definitely at their best in 2003 and 2004.

Calling Kidd a better two-way player is valid but defense isn't that important for a PG. Nash was really miles ahead of Kidd offensively. It really isn't close. And labelling him as a system player isn't fair. He led Phoenix to a #1 ORtg in the league with a whopping 115.3 in 2010 with Alvin Gentry and a completely different cast of players than in 2005. It's also worth noting that Nash really elevated his production in the postseason. He averaged 19/10 from 2002-2010 on 58.9 %TS (+5.7 rTS) and insane 48/41/90 splits. Those numbers dwarf Kidd's whose best stretch is like 16/9 on terrible shooting. Kidd played with Carter, RJ and a really deep Nets team from 2005-2007 and they finished 26th, 25th and 16th in ORtg. In fact that's the story of Kidd's career. Apart from the 1999 Suns which were 4th in ORtg, Kidd has never led even an above average offense despite anywhere between decent and great talent. And no I'm not exaggerating. Look at how trash Jason's Suns and Nets teams were on offense.

[Lebron_James]

Since Harden is in. Then am voting Russell Westbrook. Kidd was famous for his triple-doubles, Westbrook did it better.

[Nike D'Antoni]

If this divided voting continues, this might go on forever. Harden barely made it with 10, with 25+ people voting.

Patrick Ewing - 6 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Steve Nash - 2 ( colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Jason Kidd - 2 (gonzaldo, Phoenix)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )

What are you voting L.Kizzle?

[DevBooker'sMask]

Jason Kidd

[Nike D'Antoni]

Patrick Ewing - 6 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Jason Kidd - 3 (gonzaldo, Phoenix, DevBooker'sMask)
Steve Nash - 2 ( colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )

[Phoenix]

Sure Dirk had something to do with Dallas' offensive dominance. I can't dispute that. However, Dallas' playoff offenses were much better with Nash than without him. The Mavs' offenses were definitely at their best in 2003 and 2004.

Calling Kidd a better two-way player is valid but defense isn't that important for a PG. Nash was really miles ahead of Kidd offensively. It really isn't close. And labelling him as a system player isn't fair. He led Phoenix to a #1 ORtg in the league with a whopping 115.3 in 2010 with Alvin Gentry and a completely different cast of players than in 2005. It's also worth noting that Nash really elevated his production in the postseason. He averaged 19/10 from 2002-2010 on 58.9 %TS (+5.7 rTS) and insane 48/41/90 splits. Those numbers dwarf Kidd's whose best stretch is like 16/9 on terrible shooting. Kidd played with Carter, RJ and a really deep Nets team from 2005-2007 and they finished 26th, 25th and 16th in ORtg. In fact that's the story of Kidd's career. Apart from the 1999 Suns which were 4th in ORtg, Kidd has never led even an above average offense despite anywhere between decent and great talent. And no I'm not exaggerating. Look at how trash Jason's Suns and Nets teams were on offense.

It was/is at the point in time when teams became more reliant on their PGs to be their teams primary or secondary scorer. Nash was basically a lamp-post on defense in an era where the perimeter players were given far more freedom of movement. And you're saying that PG defense.....isn't that important. Sure, in 1995, certainly not from 2005 onwards.

I didn't call him a system player. Someone above me said that. I already acknowledged that Nash was an all-star/third teamer before he got to Phoenix. That said, the fact that he IMMEDIATELY vaulted to MVP upon the rule changes and being inserted into D'Antoni's system isn't a matter of opinion, it's the literal fact of the matter. Kidd being better in the late 90s to early 2000s, again if we are using all-NBA nods as a barometer....again...not much of an opinion. Kidd was better before the rules advantaged a player like Nash to enjoy greater success. It was less about him being better at basketball from 2005( especially when he had already been in the league like 9 years by that point) than the rules making him a more effective player. He was hardly alone; a number of good to great scorers enjoyed career offensive seasons as well. By the time 2005 hit Kidd was already 32 and on the back-nine of his prime, and not being an offensively talented player like Nash already was would not have bolstered his offensive impact in the same manner it did for Nash. That said, you give prime Kidd a healthy Amare, Joe Johnson, Marion and that team is doing damage.

[Phoenix]

If this divided voting continues, this might go on forever. Harden barely made it with 10, with 25+ people voting.

Patrick Ewing - 6 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Steve Nash - 2 ( colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Jason Kidd - 2 (gonzaldo, Phoenix)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )

What are you voting L.Kizzle?

Yeah, a few people are driving through with commentary but not voting. :confusedshrug:

[L.Kizzle]

My bad, my bad.
I'm going Willis Reed. Vote won't matter but man. MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, Multiple times All-NBA and All-Star in the mecca of basketball.

Someone mentioned he had a short prime. So, look at what he did in an 7 year span. Other guys had mad a 10 year spam with less accomplishments.

[TheCorporation]

Alright it's Jason Kidd, Cousy is my next vote but for this one it's Kidd

[RRR3]

Sure Dirk had something to do with Dallas' offensive dominance. I can't dispute that. However, Dallas' playoff offenses were much better with Nash than without him. The Mavs' offenses were definitely at their best in 2003 and 2004.

Calling Kidd a better two-way player is valid but defense isn't that important for a PG. Nash was really miles ahead of Kidd offensively. It really isn't close. And labelling him as a system player isn't fair. He led Phoenix to a #1 ORtg in the league with a whopping 115.3 in 2010 with Alvin Gentry and a completely different cast of players than in 2005. It's also worth noting that Nash really elevated his production in the postseason. He averaged 19/10 from 2002-2010 on 58.9 %TS (+5.7 rTS) and insane 48/41/90 splits. Those numbers dwarf Kidd's whose best stretch is like 16/9 on terrible shooting. Kidd played with Carter, RJ and a really deep Nets team from 2005-2007 and they finished 26th, 25th and 16th in ORtg. In fact that's the story of Kidd's career. Apart from the 1999 Suns which were 4th in ORtg, Kidd has never led even an above average offense despite anywhere between decent and great talent. And no I'm not exaggerating. Look at how trash Jason's Suns and Nets teams were on offense.
Not sure how you can make this post and have Isiah frigging Thomas over Chris Paul :lol

Zero consistency.

[dankok8]

It was/is at the point in time when teams became more reliant on their PGs to be their teams primary or secondary scorer. Nash was basically a lamp-post on defense in an era where the perimeter players were given far more freedom of movement. And you're saying that PG defense.....isn't that important. Sure, in 1995, certainly not from 2005 onwards.

I didn't call him a system player. Someone above me said that. I already acknowledged that Nash was an all-star/third teamer before he got to Phoenix. That said, the fact that he IMMEDIATELY vaulted to MVP upon the rule changes and being inserted into D'Antoni's system isn't a matter of opinion, it's the literal fact of the matter. Kidd being better in the late 90s to early 2000s, again if we are using all-NBA nods as a barometer....again...not much of an opinion. Kidd was better before the rules advantaged a player like Nash to enjoy greater success. It was less about him being better at basketball from 2005( especially when he had already been in the league like 9 years by that point) than the rules making him a more effective player. He was hardly alone; a number of good to great scorers enjoyed career offensive seasons as well. By the time 2005 hit Kidd was already 32 and on the back-nine of his prime, and not being an offensively talented player like Nash already was would not have bolstered his offensive impact in the same manner it did for Nash. That said, you give prime Kidd a healthy Amare, Joe Johnson, Marion and that team is doing damage.

With the rule changes I assume you're referring to the complete removal of perimeter handchecking which occurred in the 2005 offseason. Nash went to Phoenix in 2004 and won an MVP right away before those rules came into effect. Nash turned improved that Phoenix team by 33 games upon arrival. Nash had Joe Johnson for one season. He got hurt in the 2005 playoffs then got traded to Atlanta.

Kidd was still in his prime with Carter and RJ... 3 stars. it was a stacked Nets team that underachieved greatly and had the 26th, 25th and 16th best offenses in the league.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Patrick Ewing - 6 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Jason Kidd - 4 (gonzaldo, Phoenix, DevBooker'sMask, TheCorporation)
Steve Nash - 2 ( colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )
Willis Reed - 1 ( L.Kizzle)

20 votes in.

[Nike D'Antoni]

My bad, my bad.
I'm going Willis Reed. Vote won't matter but man. MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, Multiple times All-NBA and All-Star in the mecca of basketball.

Someone mentioned he had a short prime. So, look at what he did in an 7 year span. Other guys had mad a 10 year spam with less accomplishments.

Every vote counts, cause with your argument you can change my vote or other votes. I am having a hard time picking between these choices.

[Phoenix]

With the rule changes I assume you're referring to the complete removal of perimeter handchecking which occurred in the 2005 offseason. Nash went to Phoenix in 2004 and won an MVP right away before those rules came into effect. Nash turned improved that Phoenix team by 33 games upon arrival. Nash had Joe Johnson for one season. He got hurt in the 2005 playoffs then got traded to Atlanta.

Kidd was still in his prime with Carter and RJ... 3 stars. it was a stacked Nets team that underachieved greatly and had the 26th, 25th and 16th best offenses in the league.

Actually, the rule changes went into affect for the 2004-2005 season, not the 2005 offseason. Nash won MVP the very first season of the change:

https://www.scottfujita.com/hand-checking/

The NBA implemented the hand check rule in the 2004-2005 season. This rule clearly demonstrates an effort to reduce hand-checking. In addition, it clarifies fouls when blocking and implements the three-second defense rule.

The hand check rule completely messed up the NBA. In the past, hand check was the primary form of defense that defenders used for ball handlers to control their actions and speed.

Hand check play has been a hit in the NBA since the rule was amended in 1994. However, people later killed this tactic to make way for a more agile and free play.


https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/how-hand-checking-foul-changed-the-nba-forever

The NBA landscape changed in 2004 when the game completely whipped its hands of hand-checking. This had been a form of defense primarily used on ball handlers to control their movements on the court and suppressed their speed. The hand-check had been on its way out since the rule was modified in 1994, but the tactic was killed in order to give way to a faster game and more freedom for guards.

And boy did the guards take advantage.

It is not a coincidence that Duncan's and O'Neal's MVP award were the last one for a traditional back to the basket big man. Since that time, outside of the more unconventional, European style of Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki, the league's Most Valuable Player award has been given to wing players because the lack of the hand-check allows their skills to be used to its fullest potential.

Steve Nash went from an All-Star point guard at the beginning of the 2000s to a 2x MVP and someone who has reshaped the NBA landscape with the offense he ran with the Phoenix Suns. Watching Stephen Curry playing today is like watching a clone of Nash a decade earlier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWz-EemQKbI

Go to 3 minutes into that video. Note who's the very first player highlighted as benefitting from the exchange.

[Phoenix]

If it will speed the pace up change my vote from Kidd to Ewing. I'm not that attached to Kidd at this spot because there's like 4 or 5 other guys I considered as being just as deserving.

Patrick Ewing for me.

[Phoenix]

Patrick Ewing - 7 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers, Phoenix)
Bob Cousy - 4 (Magic is Magic, Nike D'Antoni, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Jason Kidd - 3 (gonzaldo, DevBooker'sMask, TheCorporation)
Steve Nash - 2 ( colts19, dankok8)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )
Willis Reed - 1 ( L.Kizzle)

[Phoenix]

:basketball

[dankok8]

Actually, the rule changes went into affect for the 2004-2005 season, not the 2005 offseason. Nash won MVP the very first season of the change:

https://www.scottfujita.com/hand-checking/

The NBA implemented the hand check rule in the 2004-2005 season. This rule clearly demonstrates an effort to reduce hand-checking. In addition, it clarifies fouls when blocking and implements the three-second defense rule.

The hand check rule completely messed up the NBA. In the past, hand check was the primary form of defense that defenders used for ball handlers to control their actions and speed.

Hand check play has been a hit in the NBA since the rule was amended in 1994. However, people later killed this tactic to make way for a more agile and free play.


https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/how-hand-checking-foul-changed-the-nba-forever

The NBA landscape changed in 2004 when the game completely whipped its hands of hand-checking. This had been a form of defense primarily used on ball handlers to control their movements on the court and suppressed their speed. The hand-check had been on its way out since the rule was modified in 1994, but the tactic was killed in order to give way to a faster game and more freedom for guards.

And boy did the guards take advantage.

It is not a coincidence that Duncan's and O'Neal's MVP award were the last one for a traditional back to the basket big man. Since that time, outside of the more unconventional, European style of Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki, the league's Most Valuable Player award has been given to wing players because the lack of the hand-check allows their skills to be used to its fullest potential.

Steve Nash went from an All-Star point guard at the beginning of the 2000s to a 2x MVP and someone who has reshaped the NBA landscape with the offense he ran with the Phoenix Suns. Watching Stephen Curry playing today is like watching a clone of Nash a decade earlier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWz-EemQKbI

Go to 3 minutes into that video. Note who's the very first player highlighted as benefitting from the exchange.

Good post. I agree that the rule change had a big effect on the NBA in general. Average ORtg went up from 102.9 in 2004 to 106.1 in 2005 which is a massive increase. I misremembered and thought the rule came in 2005 and not 2004 because 2006 was the big offensive explosion where Kobe, AI, Lebron, Arenas all averaged career highs in scoring.

I don't think it's fair to penalize Nash though. All players could take advantage of this Kidd included. You never addressed Kidd's inability to lead the Nets to even an average offense from 2005 to 2007 with a very talented team while he was still in his prime.

[dankok8]

I got no problem with Ewing. I'll switch my vote to him as well.

[Phoenix]

Good post. I agree that the rule change had a big effect on the NBA in general. Average ORtg went up from 102.9 in 2004 to 106.1 in 2005 which is a massive increase. I misremembered and thought the rule came in 2005 and not 2004 because 2006 was the big offensive explosion where Kobe, AI, Lebron, Arenas all averaged career highs in scoring.

I don't think it's fair to penalize Nash though. All players could take advantage of this Kidd included. You never addressed Kidd's inability to lead the Nets to even an average offense from 2005 to 2007 with a very talented team while he was still in his prime.

As did Dirk and Pierce IIRC. Lebron also scored a career high 31ppg even though he was still relatively raw in terms of scoring skillset. 2005 was mostly the period of adjustment but you'll notice, a guy like Iverson was shooting like 41% or whatever the prior few seasons and then his % went up to 44, then 45 in 2006, and even on the wrong side of 30 in Denver he was hitting at like a 46% clip. So while volume didn't go up seriously in 2005, efficiency was starting to go up ( I haven't looked at the across the board numbers, I'm guessing it did as it did for Iverson) and scoring volume rose a year later for those aforementioned.

Nash in that 2005 year scored 15.5ppg on 51%, then went up to 18.8 on 52% in 06( improving both volume and efficiency). Now some of that boost could have also been due to losing Amare so Nash had to pick up the slack but still, that 2006 year saw the big offensive explosion IMO because the offensive players had a season to adjust to the new rules, and they were better able to adjust in a way that benefitted them relative to whatever adjustments defenses could make in response. I didn't deliberately avoid the point made about Kidd not making the Nets a top offense from 2005 to 2007 but will address now, Nash would have certainly improved their offense bolstered by his own offensive prowess but they also become worse defensively in the process soooo......it's a wash I guess? :confusedshrug:

To be clear, I think Kidd and Nash is a fair argument. It's not one of those 'Kidd is obviously much higher ranked' or the reverse. I just feel like Kidd was better than Nash without the benefit of rules that bolstered Nash's offensive effectiveness. Kidd wouldn't have gotten the same kind of stimulation package because he wasn't the scorer/shooter Nash was. They're about the same level of playmaker with Kidd being better defensively and Nash offensively. It's close.

[dankok8]

As did Dirk and Pierce IIRC. Lebron also scored a career high 31ppg even though he was still relatively raw in terms of scoring skillset. 2005 was mostly the period of adjustment but you'll notice, a guy like Iverson was shooting like 41% or whatever the prior few seasons and then his % went up to 44, then 45 in 2006, and even on the wrong side of 30 in Denver he was hitting at like a 46% clip. So while volume didn't go up seriously in 2005, efficiency was starting to go up ( I haven't looked at the across the board numbers, I'm guessing it did as it did for Iverson) and scoring volume rose a year later for those aforementioned.

Nash in that 2005 year scored 15.5ppg on 51%, then went up to 18.8 on 52% in 06( improving both volume and efficiency). Now some of that boost could have also been due to losing Amare so Nash had to pick up the slack but still, that 2006 year saw the big offensive explosion IMO because the offensive players had a season to adjust to the new rules, and they were better able to adjust in a way that benefitted them relative to whatever adjustments defenses could make in response. I didn't deliberately avoid the point made about Kidd not making the Nets a top offense from 2005 to 2007 but will address now, Nash would have certainly improved their offense bolstered by his own offensive prowess but they also become worse defensively in the process soooo......it's a wash I guess? :confusedshrug:

To be clear, I think Kidd and Nash is a fair argument. It's not one of those 'Kidd is obviously much higher ranked' or the reverse. I just feel like Kidd was better than Nash without the benefit of rules that bolstered Nash's offensive effectiveness. Kidd wouldn't have gotten the same kind of stimulation package because he wasn't the scorer/shooter Nash was. They're about the same level of playmaker with Kidd being better defensively and Nash offensively. It's close.

They are not the same level of playmaker. Nash had better vision and also used his scoring to pressure defenses which opened up opportunities.

Offense is more important for a PG than defense. Look at Magic, Oscar and Curry. They are the three best PG's in history and they were offense-only players. Nash was lifting his teams to the same historic offensive heights as those guys but somehow people look the other way. If Nash had a #1 defense like Curry had on the 2015 Warriors for instance his Suns would have been a dynasty with multiple championships.

[RRR3]

They are not the same level of playmaker. Nash had better vision and also used his scoring to pressure defenses which opened up opportunities.

Offense is more important for a PG than defense. Look at Magic, Oscar and Curry. They are the three best PG's in history and they were offense-only players. Nash was lifting his teams to the same historic offensive heights as those guys but somehow people look the other way. If Nash had a #1 defense like Curry had on the 2015 Warriors for instance his Suns would have been a dynasty with multiple championships.
RANGZ doe. Kidd clutch killa assassin got dat bling blang blur doe.




Oh wait you only use this argument for Isiah and CP3 eh? Interesting.

[dankok8]

RANGZ doe. Kidd clutch killa assassin got dat bling blang blur doe.




Oh wait you only use this argument for Isiah and CP3 eh? Interesting.

LOL

When did I say Isiah is better than CP3 because he won rings? I said he's better because of his intangibles and how he came up very big in important games.

[RRR3]

lol

when did i say isiah is better than cp3 because he won rings? I said he's better because of his intangibles and how he came up very big in important games.
killah instink. Clutch jean. Da will to win. Rrrrrrrrangz.

[Phoenix]

They are not the same level of playmaker. Nash had better vision and also used his scoring to pressure defenses which opened up opportunities.

Offense is more important for a PG than defense. Look at Magic, Oscar and Curry. They are the three best PG's in history and they were offense-only players. Nash was lifting his teams to the same historic offensive heights as those guys but somehow people look the other way. If Nash had a #1 defense like Curry had on the 2015 Warriors for instance his Suns would have been a dynasty with multiple championships.

How do you quantity that? Kidd was every bit the passer Nash was without presenting the same kind of offensive threat opening up opportunities as you say.

Anyways, we're kind of at the point we're going to start regurgitating most of the same talking points, especially with your point about PG defense and what my reply to that already has been and will be again if I go down that line. I prefer Kidd. You prefer Nash. It's OK.

[Airupthere]

killah instink. Clutch jean. Da will to win. Rrrrrrrrangz.

Cringe af, lol. Try taking a break for a bit. This has not good for your health.

[1987_Lakers]

They are not the same level of playmaker. Nash had better vision and also used his scoring to pressure defenses which opened up opportunities.

Offense is more important for a PG than defense. Look at Magic, Oscar and Curry. They are the three best PG's in history and they were offense-only players. Nash was lifting his teams to the same historic offensive heights as those guys but somehow people look the other way. If Nash had a #1 defense like Curry had on the 2015 Warriors for instance his Suns would have been a dynasty with multiple championships.

I believe Kidd is probably the best defensive PG ever, but I agree if you are a PG, your defensive presence is less felt team wise, Nets were a very good defensive team when they made the Finals in back to back years, but they were far from dominant, Shaq, Kobe, & Duncan all carved them up in the Finals. Historically, a dominant defensive team are led by a defensive big man like Russell, D-Rob, Ewing, B. Wallace, Duncan, Garnett etc.

Peak Nash was on another level offensively, we had never seen a PG just cause havoc on the offensive end since Magic, (Curry came along later) he was superior to Stockton & Kidd on the offensive end, and I believe his sizable advantage on the offensive end outweighs Kidd's & Stockton's edge on defense.

[1987_Lakers]

LOL

When did I say Isiah is better than CP3 because he won rings? I said he's better because of his intangibles and how he came up very big in important games.

I agree with you on Nash, but not this. Isiah for 3 straight years in the playoffs vs the Bulls played underwhelming, he choked the series vs Boston in '87, he layed a fat egg in the '88 Finals but gets bailed out by casual fans because he balled out in that game 6 where he got injured, beat an injured Lakers team in '89. '90 is the only Finals where he came up big.

This Isiah always came up big in important games is a myth, Detroit's defense is the biggest reason why they were so good.

[RRR3]

I agree with you on Nash, but not this. Isiah for 3 straight years in the playoffs vs the Bulls played underwhelming, he choked the series vs Boston in '87, he layed a fat egg in the '88 Finals but gets bailed out by casual fans because he balled out in that game 6 where he got injured, beat an injured Lakers team in '89. '90 is the only Finals where he came up big.

This Isiah always came up big in important games is a myth, Detroit's defense is the biggest reason why they were so good.
Really hilarious he doesn’t see his own inconsistency.

[SouBeachTalents]

I honestly don’t know if we’re gonna get 10 votes for the winning player going forward. We might have to change it to 8 as a temporary measure.

[dankok8]

I agree with you on Nash, but not this. Isiah for 3 straight years in the playoffs vs the Bulls played underwhelming, he choked the series vs Boston in '87, he layed a fat egg in the '88 Finals but gets bailed out by casual fans because he balled out in that game 6 where he got injured, beat an injured Lakers team in '89. '90 is the only Finals where he came up big.

This Isiah always came up big in important games is a myth, Detroit's defense is the biggest reason why they were so good.

I didn't say he always came up big but he was a very clutch player compared to CP3.

Isiah's pass led to the Bird steal but he was still very good against Boston in 1987.
The Bulls were a tough matchup with MJ defending him. These were the toughest series for the Pistons in general in 1989 and 1990.
Magic only got hurt in Game 3 in 1989 plus you can only beat who's in front of you.

Agree to disagree.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Switching Patrick Ewing to process this faster.


Patrick Ewing - 9 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers, Phoenix,dankok8, Nike D'Antoni)
Bob Cousy - 3 (Magic is Magic, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Jason Kidd - 3 (gonzaldo, DevBooker'sMask, TheCorporation)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Steve Nash - 1 ( colts19)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )
Willis Reed - 1 ( L.Kizzle)

[SouBeachTalents]

This is what I mean. If everyone needs to switch their vote and we’re still not even at ten, we need a new format going forward :lol

[1987_Lakers]

I didn't say he always came up big but he was a very clutch player compared to CP3.

Isiah's pass led to the Bird steal but he was still very good against Boston in 1987.
The Bulls were a tough matchup with MJ defending him. These were the toughest series for the Pistons in general in 1989 and 1990.
Magic only got hurt in Game 3 in 1989 plus you can only beat who's in front of you.

Agree to disagree.

Isiah in the postseason: 20/5/9/2 on 52 TS%
CP3 in the postseason: 21/5/8/2 on on 58 TS%

They were pretty much identical in raw numbers in the playoffs, only difference is CP3 was the superior defender, shooter, and overall more efficient than Isiah. You also have to consider that CP3's overall longevity shits on Isiah's. And the only reason why Isiah has championships is because he had better teams, are you really gonna fault CP3 for that? Even if you want to call Isiah the more clutch performer which is very arguable to me, he DID in fact play bad in some of his biggest playoff games. In game 7 vs Boston in '87 he shot 10 of 28, in game 7 vs the Bulls in '90 he shot 7 of 17. I'm sorry, but that is not some clutch God, and even if you want to say Isiah was the more clutch performer, CP3's advantage in being the more complete player, longevity etc is more than enough to rank him over Isiah.

I'm somewhat mind blown in the people who think Isiah is better, the only arguments I hear for him being ranked ahead of CP3 is "clutch", "rings", that is pretty lazy analysis if you ask me.

[Nike D'Antoni]

This is what I mean. If everyone needs to switch their vote and we’re still not even at ten, we need a new format going forward :lol

I am thinking everyone votes for 2 players at each position.

Because think most people are ok with many players at 34. I don't mind anyone voted here at 34.

[RRR3]

Isiah in the postseason: 20/5/9/2 on 52 TS%
CP3 in the postseason: 21/5/8/2 on on 58 TS%

They were pretty much identical in raw numbers in the playoffs, only difference is CP3 was the superior defender, shooter, and overall more efficient than Isiah. You also have to consider that CP3's overall longevity shits on Isiah's. And the only reason why Isiah has championships is because he had better teams, are you really gonna fault CP3 for that? Even if you want to call Isiah the more clutch performer which is very arguable to me, he DID in fact play bad in some of his biggest playoff games. In game 7 vs Boston in '87 he shot 10 of 28, in game 7 vs the Bulls in '90 he shot 7 of 17. I'm sorry, but that is not some clutch God, and even if you want to say Isiah was the more clutch performer, CP3's advantage in being the more complete player, longevity etc is more than enough to rank him over Isiah.

I'm somewhat mind blown in the people who think Isiah is better, the only arguments I hear for him being ranked ahead of CP3 is "clutch", "rings", that is pretty lazy analysis if you ask me.
Literally all they have. Skip Bayless level arguments. It’s quite sad. Our list was ruined when morons voted Isiah in first.

[ELITEpower23]

This is what I mean. If everyone needs to switch their vote and we’re still not even at ten, we need a new format going forward :lol

+1

Have people make two votes and give point totals for each

#34
1a. Jason Kidd
1b. Steve Nash

4 points for 1a
2 points for 1b

Easy as that...No more vote changing bullshit.

[SouBeachTalents]

+1

Have people make two votes and give point totals for each

#34
1a. Jason Kidd
1b. Steve Nash

4 points for 1a
2 points for 1b

Easy as that...No more vote changing bullshit.
4 seems like a lot bro :lol I was thinking either a 1/.5 or 2/1 ratio to start out and see how things go. Or just dropping the threshold needed from 10 to 8.

[ELITEpower23]

4 seems like a lot bro :lol I was thinking either a 1/.5 or 2/1 ratio to start out and see how things go. Or just dropping the threshold needed from 10 to 8.

Yeah true, if we are stopping at 10 then yeah. But then it should be 1 and 0.5 or 1.5 and .75 (if people know how to do math)

[Phoenix]

:banghead:

[dankok8]

Isiah in the postseason: 20/5/9/2 on 52 TS%
CP3 in the postseason: 21/5/8/2 on on 58 TS%

They were pretty much identical in raw numbers in the playoffs, only difference is CP3 was the superior defender, shooter, and overall more efficient than Isiah. You also have to consider that CP3's overall longevity shits on Isiah's. And the only reason why Isiah has championships is because he had better teams, are you really gonna fault CP3 for that? Even if you want to call Isiah the more clutch performer which is very arguable to me, he DID in fact play bad in some of his biggest playoff games. In game 7 vs Boston in '87 he shot 10 of 28, in game 7 vs the Bulls in '90 he shot 7 of 17. I'm sorry, but that is not some clutch God, and even if you want to say Isiah was the more clutch performer, CP3's advantage in being the more complete player, longevity etc is more than enough to rank him over Isiah.

I'm somewhat mind blown in the people who think Isiah is better, the only arguments I hear for him being ranked ahead of CP3 is "clutch", "rings", that is pretty lazy analysis if you ask me.

Except CP3's longevity doesn't shit on Isiah's because he's been injured in like half of the playoff runs in his career.

The raw box score numbers are close enough that Isiah being the better leader, better clutch performer and more durable playing through injuries swings the argument in his favor. Intangibles matter which is also why Bill Russell is ranked above a lot of people who have not just slightly but way better stats.

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Patrick Ewing - 9 (Airupthere, LBJ, Round Mound,SouBeachTalents, Lebron23, 1987_Lakers, Phoenix,dankok8, Nike D'Antoni)
Bob Cousy - 3 (Magic is Magic, ELITEpower23, Chick Stern)
Jason Kidd - 3 (gonzaldo, DevBooker'sMask, TheCorporation)
John Stockton - 2 (Manny98, francesco totti)
Willis Reed - 1 ( L.Kizzle)
Steve Nash - 1 ( colts19)
Westbrook - 1 ( Lebron_James )

Ewing wins. We may use 8 as the threshold in the following threads if the vote is dispersed too many ways. We had seven players getting votes in this round.

[1987_Lakers]

Except CP3's longevity doesn't shit on Isiah's because he's been injured in like half of the playoff runs in his career.

The raw box score numbers are close enough that Isiah being the better leader, better clutch performer and more durable playing through injuries swings the argument in his favor. Intangibles matter which is also why Bill Russell is ranked above a lot of people who have not just slightly but way better stats.

Again, Isiah was pretty much done as a player by age 31, CP3 was finishing top 5 in MVP voting and leading his team to the Finals at age 35. And to say CP3 was injured in "half" of his playoff runs is a flat out lie, I count 3 times where he had legit injuries and he has been to the playoffs 13 times, how is that close to half?

And the reason why Bill Russell is ranked ahead of guys who have better numbers than him is because Russell is by far the greatest defender this league has seen, something stats doesn't measure. We all know Isiah was nothing to write home about defensively, CP3 was superior in that department, and I've already proven he wasn't this "clutch" performer you are trying to label him.

[Kobe_Bryant]

Roid Paul CP0 shouldn't be anywhere near Isiah Thomas in an all time ranking

zeke is top 20 to 25. Paul's 30 to 35


if not for a phantom call zeke is a 3 time champion and 2 time finals mvp with a three peat

[1987_Lakers]

Roid Paul CP0 shouldn't be anywhere near Isiah Thomas in an all time ranking

zeke is top 20 to 25. Paul's 30 to 35


if not for a phantom call zeke is a 3 time champion and 2 time finals mvp with a three peat

It would without a doubt been one of the most unimpressive FMVPs if he did snag it in '88.

game 1: 6 of 16 shooting
game 2: 5 of 14
game 3: 10 of 21
game 4: 2 of 7 (Detroit won this game by 25 despite Isiah shooting like this, STACKED, lol)
game 5: 4 of 13

But I'm not surprised a fan of a chucker is defending another chucker.

[dankok8]

Again, Isiah was pretty much done as a player by age 31, CP3 was finishing top 5 in MVP voting and leading his team to the Finals at age 35. And to say CP3 was injured in "half" of his playoff runs is a flat out lie, I count 3 times where he had legit injuries and he has been to the playoffs 13 times, how is that close to half?

And the reason why Bill Russell is ranked ahead of guys who have better numbers than him is because Russell is by far the greatest defender this league has seen, something stats doesn't measure. We all know Isiah was nothing to write home about defensively, CP3 was superior in that department, and I've already proven he wasn't this "clutch" performer you are trying to label him.

He was injured in 2009, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2018 and 2021. That's 6 times in 13 postseasons so that's around half.

Bill Russell is ahead also because of intangibles. Basically Isiah was a better player than his stats and CP3 was worse than his stats. From 2008-2017 and 2020 when Paul was actually the best player on his team, he never went past the second round of the playoffs. But there's more... not a single team he lost to in those years even made the finals. And it's not like CP3's team were like the 8th seeds. He was 2nd/3rd/4th seed a lot of those years and not a single conference finals. Not even one.

[1987_Lakers]

He was injured in 2009, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2018 and 2021. That's 6 times in 13 postseasons so that's around half.

Bill Russell is ahead also because of intangibles. Basically Isiah was a better player than his stats and CP3 was worse than his stats. From 2008-2017 and 2020 when Paul was actually the best player on his team, he never went past the second round of the playoffs. But there's more... not a single team he lost to in those years even made the finals. And it's not like CP3's team were like the 8th seeds. He was 2nd/3rd/4th seed a lot of those years and not a single conference finals. Not even one.

At this point you are just nitpicking. In 2021 he played injured in the first round and played great the rest of the playoffs, the only years where his injuries cost his team was in 2016 & 2018.

CP3 is a great leader in his own right and I see no evidence that suggest he is a worse player than his stats say, that is just crazy talk, why did the Hornets fall apart the moment CP3 got traded? Why did the Clippers become an instant 55+ win team the moment he got there? The Rockets finished with the best record in the NBA when CP3 got there and got worse when they swapped him for Westbrook, he took a lottery OKC team to the playoffs and the Suns to the Finals last year.

Where on earth does it suggest that CP3 is worse than his stats? I'm sorry, but you are not making any sense right now.

Even that "Thinking Basketball" guy who you commonly reference to prove your points had CP3 ranked #21 while Isiah wasn't even in his top 40. :oldlol:

I personally won't go that far in ranking Isiah outside the top 40, but he is not that far from missing the cut, I say top 35-40 is a good spot for Isiah.

[dankok8]

At this point you are just nitpicking. In 2021 he played injured in the first round and played great the rest of the playoffs, the only years where his injuries cost his team was in 2016 & 2018.

CP3 is a great leader in his own right and I see no evidence that suggest he is a worse player than his stats say, that is just crazy talk, why did the Hornets fall apart the moment CP3 got traded? Why did the Clippers become an instant 55+ win team the moment he got there? The Rockets finished with the best record in the NBA when CP3 got there and got worse when they swapped him for Westbrook, he took a lottery OKC team to the playoffs and the Suns to the Finals last year.

Where on earth does it suggest that CP3 is worse than his numbers suggest? I'm sorry, but you are not making any sense right now.

Even that "Thinking Basketball" guy who you commonly reference to prove your points had CP3 ranked #21 while Isiah wasn't even in his top 40. :oldlol:

I personally won't go that far in ranking Isiah outside the top 40, but he is not that far from missing the cut, I say top 35-40 is a good spot for Isiah.

I don't agree with Ben Taylor on everything. He generally overrates longevity.

CP3 didn't do any better with OKC than Westbrook did. Those Clippers and Hornets teams got better with CP3 because they didn't have a good PG before him. Guys like D. Will, Rondo (post 2008), Rose, and Westbrook (post 2016) all got comparable if not better results than CP3 in terms of lifting their teams.

Regarding injuries, he missed two games in the 2021 WCF both of which his team won. It wasn't just the first round. How many titles he cost his team is hard to grade he got injured often. 6 times in 13 postseason is a lot.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't agree with Ben Taylor on everything. He generally overrates longevity.

CP3 didn't do any better with OKC than Westbrook did. Those Clippers and Hornets teams got better with CP3 because they didn't have a good PG before him. Guys like D. Will, Rondo (post 2008), Rose, and Westbrook (post 2016) all got comparable if not better results than CP3 in terms of lifting their teams.

Regarding injuries, he missed two games in the 2021 WCF both of which his team won. It wasn't just the first round. How many titles he cost his team is hard to grade he got injured often. 6 times in 13 postseason is a lot.

CP3 in 2020 won more playoff games for OKC than Westbrook and PG13 did for OKC in 2019, NOBODY picked OKC to make the playoffs in 2020, they overachieved and CP3 was the reason for it. If anything the way he transforms teams suggest he is a better player than the stats say.

And lol @ using his covid infection in 2021 as a negative.

[dankok8]

CP3 in 2020 won more playoff games for OKC than Westbrook and PG13 did for OKC in 2019, NOBODY picked OKC to make the playoffs in 2020, they overachieved and CP3 was the reason for it. If anything the way he transforms teams suggest he is a better player than the stats say.

And lol @ using his covid infection in 2021 as a negative.

Right and he lost in the 1st round of the playoffs in 2020 just like Westbrook did in 2017, 2018 and 2019. The Thunder didn't even have PG13 in 2017. Regular season games only mean so much. In the playoffs, Paul did the same or less than D. Will, Rose, Rondo and Westbrook as the best player on his teams. That's factual.

[1987_Lakers]

Right and he lost in the 1st round of the playoffs in 2020 just like Westbrook did in 2017, 2018 and 2019. The Thunder didn't even have PG13 in 2017. Regular season games only mean so much. In the playoffs, Paul did the same or less than D. Will, Rose, Rondo and Westbrook as the best player on his teams. That's factual.

You are comparing an absolute peak Westbrook to a past prime CP3. Tell me why the Rockets regressed when they swapped CP3 for Westbrook.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why a peak CP3 couldn't get past the 2nd round is because he played in a historically stacked Western conference where the Spurs, Thunder, & Warriors were clearly better teams? And CP3 was infact the Suns best player last season and he led them to the Finals, something D-Will, Rose, Rondo, & Westbrook could only dream of doing.

You had Isiah only making 2 field goals in a Finals game in '88 and his team still winning by 25 points, that should tell you how talented his roster was.

[dankok8]

You are comparing an absolute peak Westbrook to a past prime CP3. Tell me why the Rockets regressed when they swapped CP3 for Westbrook.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why a peak CP3 couldn't get past the 2nd round is because he played in a historically stacked Western conference where the Spurs, Thunder, & Warriors were clearly better teams? And CP3 was infact the Suns best player last season and he led them to the Finals, something D-Will, Rose, Rondo, & Westbrook could only dream of doing.

You had Isiah only making 2 field goals in a Finals game in '88 and his team still winning by 25 points, that should tell you how talented his roster was.

That logic of stacked conference sounds ok but how about losing to the 2009 Nuggets, 2011 Lakers, 2013 Grizzlies, 2015 Rockets, 2016 Blazers, 2017 Jazz, 2020 Rockets... Which of those teams was elite? I'll wait... Most years Paul never even got to the elite teams. You seem to miss out on the fact in my earlier post that Paul as the best player never lost to teams that even made the finals. Not even once...

Paul wasn't better than Booker in the 2021 playoffs. His team went 6-2 with him either playing horribly (first round) or DNP. To quote your earlier post "That should tell you how talented his roster was."

[RRR3]

Dankok just hates CP3. He won’t let facts get in the way of his feelings!

[SouBeachTalents]

As a neutral observer of CP3, neither a fan or a hater

Series losses he should be criticized for
2009, 2012 & 2019

Series losses he shouldn't be criticized for
2008, 2011, 2013, 2017, 2020

So that leaves 2014 & 2015, where he had good series statistically but had his teams preside over two epic collapses, 2015 being one of the biggest chokes in NBA history.

Next are 2016 & 2018, where I can't say I disagree with dankok that getting injured and missing playoff games as consistently as CP3 does should be considered a legitimate criticism, but I understand that it's obv out of his control and has nothing to do with his actual performance.

That leaves 2021, which I came very close to putting in the series he shouldn't be criticized for category, esp considering his age. But his Game 4 performance, with a chance to put their foot on the Bucks throat and go up 3-1 with 2 chances to clinch the title at home, and Booker having a monster game, for him to have that dreadful of a performance in such a critical game was too significant to ignore.

[1987_Lakers]

That logic of stacked conference sounds ok but how about losing to the 2009 Nuggets, 2011 Lakers, 2013 Grizzlies, 2015 Rockets, 2016 Blazers, 2017 Jazz, 2020 Rockets... Which of those teams was elite?

You can't be this biased. The only time where CP3's team had the edge in talent and lost was in 2015 against Houston (the same year CP3 beat the defending champ Spurs). The '09 Nuggets, '11 Lakers, & 2020 Rockets were clearly the better teams, The Clippers and Grizzlies in 2013 were pretty damn evenly matched and I don't even know why you list 2016 & 2017 considering the injuries the Clippers had as a team.

The only time you can say CP3 lost as a clear favorite is 2015.

[dankok8]

You can't be this biased. The only time where CP3's team had the edge in talent and lost was in 2015 against Houston (the same year CP3 beat the defending champ Spurs). The '09 Nuggets, '11 Lakers, & 2020 Rockets were clearly the better teams, The Clippers and Grizzlies in 2013 were pretty damn evenly matched and I don't even know why you list 2016 & 2017 considering the injuries the Clippers had as a team.

The only time you can say CP3 lost as a clear favorite is 2015.

I'm not biased. The Clippers were odds-on favorites against the 2013 Grizzlies, 2016 Blazers and 2017 Jazz. They were also only slight underdogs against the 2008 Spurs, 2009 Nuggets, 2014 Thunder and 2015 Rockets. To lose all of these series is pretty unfathomable.

The only series Paul's teams were overmatched on paper were against the 2011 Lakers and 2012 Spurs. Of course those Lakers ended up getting swept by the Mavs in the very next round and the 2012 Spurs were beat by the Thunder in the very next round as well.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm not biased. The Clippers were odds-on favorites against the 2013 Grizzlies, 2016 Blazers and 2017 Jazz. They were also only slight underdogs against the 2008 Spurs, 2009 Nuggets, 2014 Thunder and 2015 Rockets. To lose all of these series is pretty unfathomable.

The only series Paul's teams were overmatched on paper were against the 2011 Lakers and 2012 Spurs. Of course those Lakers ended up getting swept by the Mavs in the very next round and the 2012 Spurs were beat by the Thunder in the very next round as well.

Of course you are biased, you can't even acknowledge Isiah's constant under performing in big games and the Clippers injuries in 2016 & 2017.

[dankok8]

Of course you are biased, you can't even acknowledge Isiah's constant under performing in big games and the Clippers injuries in 2016 & 2017.

Why would I give Paul a pass for missing 2 playoff games in 2016? 2017 Clippers had injuries but the Jazz also had Gobert missing two games in that series.

I didn't say you should blame Paul for every series but that's three series as a favorite and four more as a slight underdog... seven losses. You can't come with excuses for all of them.

[1987_Lakers]

Why would I give Paul a pass for missing 2 playoff games in 2016? 2017 Clippers had injuries but the Jazz also had Gobert missing two games in that series.

I didn't say you should blame Paul for every series but that's three series as a favorite and four more as a slight underdog... seven losses. You can't come with excuses for all of them.

And why would I give a pass for Isiah shitting the bed in the '88 Finals, game 5 & game 7 vs Boston in '87, all the three years he went up against the Bulls, and for beating an injured team in '89? So much for being a clutch performer.

[dankok8]

And why would I give a pass for Isiah shitting the bed in the '88 Finals, game 5 & game 7 vs Boston in '87, all the three years he went up against the Bulls, and for beating an injured team in '89? So much for being a clutch performer.

You can do this for every player in history. You realize that right?