Harden is literally "half" the offensive player due to new foul baiting rules

[hiphopanonymous]

Dude was putting up 30-36ppg in the peak Charmin era where all calls went offensively and none defensively. NBA decides to experiment this year with a vintage no-call philosophy on bait-plays and suddenly he's plummeted to 16ppg!?

Am I missing something else or is this just Harden getting exposed :oldlol:

Gonna be a rough season for this guy as he learns how to adjust. And if they keep this up he is never sniffing 30ppg again :lol

[Shogon]

Dude was putting up 30-36ppg in the peak Charmin era where all calls went offensively and none defensively. NBA decides to experiment this year with a vintage no-call philosophy on bait-plays and suddenly he's plummeted to 16ppg!?

Am I missing something else or is this just Harden getting exposed :oldlol:

Gonna be a rough season for this guy as he learns how to adjust. And if they keep this up he is never sniffing 30ppg again :lol

Yes, you are. His hamstring injury.

[hiphopanonymous]

Yes, you are. His hamstring injury.
I've never known Harden to be a guy that relies heavily on athleticism. I mean, he even played fat AF last season as if he didn't care about conditioning.

What I do see is he constantly hooks peoples arms, drags defenders, jumps into them, etc (in addition to convincing refs a traveling step back is "legal")

If there was ever a player tailor made to suffer from officiating becoming strict against baiting again it was going to be him. So, maybe that hamstring will affect his timing and conditioning I'm sure that could be part of it. But I do think this new bias against baiting is going to really restrict his options that he used to have. The guy used to waltz into the lane like he was untouchable because he'd hook and flop. No more hook and flop? That paint will look awfully crowded now.

Hey, at least they'll still let him travel on those step back 3's, afaik they didn't mention that in the officiating change. He'll be a decent offensive player now. Just not a top one.

[outofstomach]

I've never known Harden to be a guy that relies heavily on athleticism. I mean, he even played fat AF last season as if he didn't care about conditioning.

What I do see is he constantly hooks peoples arms, drags defenders, jumps into them, etc (in addition to convincing refs a traveling step back is "legal")

If there was ever a player tailor made to suffer from officiating becoming strict against baiting again it was going to be him. So, maybe that hamstring will affect his timing and conditioning I'm sure that could be part of it. But I do think this new bias against baiting is going to really restrict his options that he used to have. The guy used to waltz into the lane like he was untouchable because he'd hook and flop. No more hook and flop? That paint will look awfully crowded now.

Hey, at least they'll still let him travel on those step back 3's, afaik they didn't mention that in the officiating change. He'll be a decent offensive player now. Just not a top one.harden is deceptively explosive, so yeah, it definitely has to deal with his hamstring injury

also, those stepback 3s again, are not travels. i don’t know how many times this has been covered

[Shogon]

I've never known Harden to be a guy that relies heavily on athleticism. I mean, he even played fat AF last season as if he didn't care about conditioning.

What I do see is he constantly hooks peoples arms, drags defenders, jumps into them, etc (in addition to convincing refs a traveling step back is "legal")

If there was ever a player tailor made to suffer from officiating becoming strict against baiting again it was going to be him. So, maybe that hamstring will affect his timing and conditioning I'm sure that could be part of it. But I do think this new bias against baiting is going to really restrict his options that he used to have. The guy used to waltz into the lane like he was untouchable because he'd hook and flop. No more hook and flop? That paint will look awfully crowded now.

Hey, at least they'll still let him travel on those step back 3's, afaik they didn't mention that in the officiating change. He'll be a decent offensive player now. Just not a top one.

People said Kobe was so skilled that he would be ok without his athleticism.

Well, he wasn't. Like at all.

Harden's game is based on attacking the basket, taking step back 3s or drawing fouls. If his hamstring is still limiting him from attacking the basket or psychologically he has limited himself because of the hamstring, well...

[hiphopanonymous]

harden is deceptively explosive, so yeah, it definitely has to deal with his hamstring injury

also, those stepback 3s again, are not travels. i don’t know how many times this has been covered
He's not explosive in my eyes, he's strong and shifty with it. Finishes through contact quite well because he's heavy for his height with decent length and coordination. He's clever too I'll definitely give him that, that's exactly why he exploits loopholes in rules. He gets players off balance and goes - not really explosiveness as much as he's good at shifting himself and others around for good scoring setups. Trouble I see is, in many of those setups his intent from the very first moment was to get fouled not even to score a field goal, and many others are deliberately an "I could make it but I want to get fouled too" gamble but they are often off balance since he was banking so hard on manipulation for free throws. And the NBA is cracking down hard on that. So without that safety net of the free throws he's going to be analyzing his options differently. He will probably bounce back up a bit but I don't think he's going to hit 30ppg again with how it's called so far. He'll be lucky to be a 25 guy now.

Also that double step back WITH CERTAINTY was a travel prior to 5-10 years ago, straight up. The move got analyzed to death on film and the NBA decided to find a way to extend the interpretation of when a "gather" happens just to let this stupid move continue to exist. The way the game was officiated in the past these moves simply couldn't exist. Again, he's clever, not his fault - he's taking what's given to him. Problem is now they took the hook and flop away which was a big part of his bag.

[Bronbron23]

Dude was putting up 30-36ppg in the peak Charmin era where all calls went offensively and none defensively. NBA decides to experiment this year with a vintage no-call philosophy on bait-plays and suddenly he's plummeted to 16ppg!?

Am I missing something else or is this just Harden getting exposed :oldlol:

Gonna be a rough season for this guy as he learns how to adjust. And if they keep this up he is never sniffing 30ppg again :lol

Most of the top perimeter players are struggling but Harden is struggling more than the others. The new rule is a big reason but i do think there's other factors like his injury and the fact that he's playing with a better scorer.

[hiphopanonymous]

Most of the top perimeter players are struggling but Harden is struggling more than the others. The new rule is a big reason but i do think there's other factors like his injury and the fact that he's playing with a better scorer.
Couldn't it be that he's suffering more because he was the most egregious offender of ref baiting? It certainly looked like it every time I saw him play.

[Phoenix]

You guys make zero sum arguments. It's a combination of factors. Whatever physical/mental limitations coming off the injury. The new defense rules with foul-baiting. Rust/lack of practice/poor conditioning. Being a year older at 32( there are points when being a year older in basketball can mean better, but that usually stops at 30). Put it all in a blender. If we're still having this discussion in January and he's otherwise 'healthy' and in reasonable shape ( for Harden's body-type), if he's still struggling *like this* then the process of elimination firmly swings to the defense rules nerfing his offensive game.

He can adjust and still be elite, but he's not dropping 30 or 35 again and with KD onboard wasn't going to anyways.

[hateraid]

So OP thinks a hamstring injury won't affect how you play. Makes sense

[warriorfan]

harden is deceptively explosive, so yeah, it definitely has to deal with his hamstring injury

also, those stepback 3s again, are not travels. i don’t know how many times this has been covered

This.

[hiphopanonymous]

https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/r/2021/10/28/57fef6b5-1033-496c-a818-7c8a8ff850d6/thumbnail/770x433/7d9ca3fa5d9af5aa672270c15a0007a4/lowry-harden-heat-nets.jpg

Basketball fans: Baiting. Good no-call.

Harden fans: It's his hamstring!


I'll bet his hamstring is fine. He's rusty from the recovery phase but the hamstring itself I'd bet is just fine. His lack of scoring prowess is nothing more than rust mixed with his old bag of ref baiting is now useless so now he's got to figure out new ways to score. The more difficult traditional way (actually trying to make a field goal at a good percentage every single time).

[warriorfan]

https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/r/2021/10/28/57fef6b5-1033-496c-a818-7c8a8ff850d6/thumbnail/770x433/7d9ca3fa5d9af5aa672270c15a0007a4/lowry-harden-heat-nets.jpg

Basketball fans: Baiting. Good no-call.

Harden fans: It's his hamstring!


I'll bet his hamstring is fine. He's rusty from the recovery phase but the hamstring itself I'd bet is just fine. His lack of scoring prowess is nothing more than rust mixed with his old bag of ref baiting is now useless so now he's got to figure out new ways to score. The more difficult traditional way (actually trying to make a field goal at a good percentage every single time).

I hope you are trolling. If you are letting your hate for James Harden cloud your judgement to this degree…then that is a little bit scary.

[SaintzFury13]

I mean... I'm one of James Harden's biggest critics, and even I can acknowledge that it's not all due to the new rule changes. Yeah, he's most likely never going to put up the same amount of production he's used to due to the new changes. But something this drastic? It's a massive stretch to say it's due to that. He's still a very skilled offensive talent. Someone with his shooting abilities and handles isn't going to only put up 16 PPG due to something like this.

[hiphopanonymous]

I mean... I'm one of James Harden's biggest critics, and even I can acknowledge that it's not all due to the new rule changes. Yeah, he's most likely never going to put up the same amount of production he's used to due to the new changes. But something this drastic? It's a massive stretch to say it's due to that. He's still a very skilled offensive talent. Someone with his shooting abilities and handles isn't going to only put up 16 PPG due to something like this.
I actually agree it's not all due to rule changes - he'll close the gap by about 50%. I believe he'll settle around 25ppg. He's rusty and it's only a few games in so he hasn't made his adjustments yet or shaken off other gameplay rust. But once he does I don't think his ceiling will be as high anymore unless the NBA dials back. That 30-36ppg peak he had was when he could get away with all those hook and flop drives. Those happened multiple times a game and he was given 5-10ppg on free throws that he won't get anymore even if he sharpened back up to peak form.

[outofstomach]

I hope you are trolling. If you are letting your hate for James Harden cloud your judgement to this degree…then that is a little bit scary.
they despise him :lol it’s alright, when he adapts and comes to form these threads will be getting bumped

[Proctor]

Harden will adapt and come to form just to descend back to 5-19 and 3-20 shooting nights in the playoffs while being carried by KD, Mills and Aldridge.

Nice time to be a Harden fan

[Charlie Sheen]

Harden's offensive arsenal is reliant on creating opportunity by getting a defender off balance and exploding into a step back or a blow by. Without that dynamic athleticism, he's just a mortal nba player that defenders have time to recover against.

[eliteballer]

Never seen anything like it.

[warriorfan]

Harden's offensive arsenal is reliant on creating opportunity by getting a defender off balance and exploding into a step back or a blow by. Without that dynamic athleticism, he's just a mortal nba player that defenders have time to recover against.

Yes. He doesn’t have that right now including his usual drawing of fouls. So he’s lost out on two main aspects of his game and it has turned him into more of a one dimensional guy instead of a guy where you never know what’s coming. It’s like if you had one of the best pitchers in baseball and you take away two of his pitches. The drop off would be staggering.

[Dr. Lemon]

After a dive into some older clips of Mr. Harden in prime shape and condition, I found this game highlight as a good representation of the significant difference in his movement versus how he looks today. Bear in mind, this was also the playoffs where he notoriously receive much less calls from the referees.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbmbdIPUV08&t=119s&ab_channel=HouseofHighlights

His explosiveness off the dribble is just in a completely different stratosphere from the version we've seen so far in this early season. I would concur that once he is able to get his body back to 100 percent, his production will see a dramatic increase.

[Hey Yo]

harden is deceptively explosive, so yeah, it definitely has to deal with his hamstring injury

also, those stepback 3s again, are not travels. i don’t know how many times this has been covered

LOL @ this Harden stan

[Bronbron23]

Couldn't it be that he's suffering more because he was the most egregious offender of ref baiting? It certainly looked like it every time I saw him play.

I'm not sure how much of it is the new rule and how much of it is his injury and playing with kd. If i had to put them in percentage i'd say it's 40% the rules 40% the injury and 20% playing with a better scorer but that's a wild guess tbh.

[outofstomach]

LOL @ this Harden stan
did i say something wrong or…?

[beasted]

Harden looks like that kind of out of shape dad-bod guy you overhear in the gym saying "back in the day I could bench...." and wears a bulky back brace to squat along with sweating all over everyone playing pickup ball.

He looks like a bum to put it more shortly. Not someone who makes $35M+ to be a professional athlete.

I'd start there before I even dream about thinking the rule changes being the catalyst.

[eliteballer]

Hardens skilled enough where he should adjust.

[90sgoat]

I always said that Curry, Lebron, Harden etc would struggle to score 20ppg in the 90s.

Very few of the modern scorers would hit 25ppg in the 90s.

Embiid, AD, KAT, Zion, they would.

Which guards?

Luka, yes for sure, has the post game, has the moves.

I think Klay has a better chance of scoring 20ppg than either of those mentioned.

Ok, if we went back to the 90s, I could see something like this:

Joel Embiid - 28 ppg
Luka Doncic - 27 ppg
AD - 27ppg
Zion - 25ppg
KAT - 24ppg
---
Curry 19ppg
Lebron 18ppg
Harden 16ppg (off the bench)

[BigShotBob]

I always said that Curry, Lebron, Harden etc would struggle to score 20ppg in the 90s.

Very few of the modern scorers would hit 25ppg in the 90s.

Embiid, AD, KAT, Zion, they would.

Which guards?

Luka, yes for sure, has the post game, has the moves.

I think Klay has a better chance of scoring 20ppg than either of those mentioned.

Ok, if we went back to the 90s, I could see something like this:

Joel Embiid - 28 ppg
Luka Doncic - 27 ppg
AD - 27ppg
Zion - 25ppg
KAT - 24ppg
---
Curry 19ppg
Lebron 18ppg
Harden 16ppg (off the bench)

Embiid is not averaging 28, nor is Luka averaging 27 and Zion wouldn't average 25, Kat wouldn't average 24 either.

Everyone else is more or less spot on but Lebron would average at least 22-23 due to higher volume

[baudkarma]

Yahoo sports did a story today on Harden, revealing some of the things he said after his team lost to the Heat on Wednesday.

“As much as I want to get back to 30 and 40 points (a game), I can’t do that. As much I want to, obviously would love to. I had no opportunities to play pickup or nothing this summer. Everything was rehab for three months. From a grade 2 injury that happened three times in one season.

This is my fifth, sixth game of trying to just play with competition and play against somebody else. As much as I want to rush the process and be back to hooping and killing it’s like, ‘Nah, I’ll take the time.’ This is also going to make me stronger at the end of the season. I just embrace moments like this and things like this and I just keep pushing through it — I’m finally slowly getting back to it … It’s gonna happen. But you got to just continue to keep fighting and I will.”

I Harden wasn't able to play any kind of meaningful ball during the offseason because he as in rehab, then I can see why his timing would be way off. The Nets are only five games into the season, it's a little early to be yanking the ripcord.

[noonereal]

Yes, you are. His hamstring injury.

Sorry. That is not the issue. It's the refs going overboard in not calling anything. Clearly they know the rule was put in place to stop him and the refs don't want to call anything less they are accused of still making the old calls.

Then you have his teammates. They suck. Aside from the big 3 the Net's are much weaker than last year. Their bench is pathetic. Then of course, we have the Kyrie crap.

The Net's really did have a great team last year. Amazing how things completely turned around.

[warriorfan]

Sorry. That is not the issue. It's the refs going overboard in not calling anything. Clearly they know the rule was put in place to stop him and the refs don't want to call anything less they are accused of still making the old calls.

Then you have his teammates. They suck. Aside from the big 3 the Net's are much weaker than last year. Their bench is pathetic. Then of course, we have the Kyrie crap.

The Net's really did have a great team last year. Amazing how things completely turned around.

Nice iq bro.

Do everyone here a favor and just stop posting.

[eliteballer]

IMO this should throw literally everything that has happened in the last 5-6 years into question.